Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » From the Commons library a treasure trove of data for election

1246

Comments

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857

    If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
    I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
    It's not about the cost, it's about the symbolism. It will be the first concrete example of what May's obsessive anti-immigrant vindictiveness has cost the UK.
    Hardly, It's trivial.
    Again, symbolism, not cost.

    It represents May successfully denuding UK citizens of the rights they've possessed for 40 years to live, love and work in 28 countries.

    It's a symbol of the stripping of those rights away from UK citizens, and the pride with which she has done it.

    This 7 euro fee is your grovelling to the EU saying "Please let me in; I acknowledge Mrs May has stripped me of my rights".

    It's powerfully symbolic, and will stand as a totem that everything May tried to take away from us.

    Or at least it would if we were leaving the EU, which we aren't.
    Did you actually say 'live, love and work'? What a turd of a phrase.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited December 2018
    RobD said:


    UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841

    Scott_P said:

    I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857

    You might also wonder how many Brits will say ok, we'll take our hols at home instead.
    For the sake of £7 ? None.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,545

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.

    It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
    Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.

    Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
    Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.

    The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
    On one level yes - no one is suggesting that's the ideal state, it is only for a gap between transtion ending and the final trade deal kicking in.

    But in another sense, that's exactly what Brexit is. I acknowledge that you and many other passionate Brexiteers hate it. It's not what you hoped for after the vote. But the Irish border was never going to be ignorable and this is exactly the consequence of the Brexit vote. This is exactly what Brexit is.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:


    UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4
    Was it really necessary to post that?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.

    It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
    Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on tned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
    Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to whf the EU to me.
    Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.

    The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.

    It will be ugly.
    really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurts
    I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.

    Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.
    thats the problem with Varadkar hes been winding up the green tub thumpers to get votes. I cant respect the man since he has undone a decade of solid work to normalise realations between UK and RoI and all because he wants to win an election.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,843

    Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?

    A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.

    That is the message I am hearing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2018
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.

    It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
    Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.

    Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
    Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.

    The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
    Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU nace, the Enemy.

    It will be ugly.
    really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurts
    I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.

    Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.
    The Republic of Ireland is not even in the Commonwealth and does not have the Queen as its Head of State and is in the Eurozone, it is now no more a British ally than Belgium. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Caribbean states, the USA, Austria, Italy, Switzerland etc are all closer allies of the UK now than Ireland
  • Scott_P said:

    Freer Trade Agreement would be more correct.
  • SeanT said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andrew said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30?
    We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.

    You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.
    Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.
    Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.
    I really didn't think that through did I? Still it seems to be a la mode these days.
    Actually the EU has said we can rejoin with the same deal we had. Not Cameron's deal. but the status quo before his "renegotiation".
    Just a point of order. It was the ECJ not the EU who made the ruling
    Distinction without a difference.

    The ECJ is a pillar of the EU.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    kinabalu said:

    Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?

    A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.

    That is the message I am hearing.
    Where in the GFA does it say that there cannot be a customs border?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2018
    TOPPING said:

    If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.

    Speaking of which, and I say this because I think @FrancisUrquhart is a fan, there should be a cracking fight tonight at York Hall - Larry Ekundayo, who lost, with a damaged hand, to Gary Corcoran, who then went on to fight Manny, is defending his IBF Welterweight strap vs. Louis Greene. He (Larry) should go far beyond this defence.

    I'll be there (next PB get together??!) but it's also being live-streamed on BoxNation.
    I do love a good live tear up. Not been for donkeys years, closest I have been in recent years is when my hotel reservation got messed up and I was relocated to a hotel in central Swindon in which from the 10 floor I got a cracking view of the Friday night carnage.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    SeanT said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andrew said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30?
    We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.

    You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.
    Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.
    Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.
    I really didn't think that through did I? Still it seems to be a la mode these days.
    Actually the EU has said we can rejoin with the same deal we had. Not Cameron's deal. but the status quo before his "renegotiation".
    In which case, we need that clarifying urgently. Not the nonsense May is pantomiming right now. We need clear, unambiguous alternatives to choose from.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4
    Was it really necessary to post that?
    As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.

    The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    Deal vs No deal (which I think you are suggesting) would be legitimate

    But Parliament won’t give that
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4
    Was it really necessary to post that?
    As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.

    The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
    Probably better to say it in words, rather than having to listen to a whiny child :p
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880

    SeanT said:


    "Gammons" is a ridiculous and juvenile word. Beneath you. Especially as you are quite gammony yourself.

    I'm number 4 on the Wall of Gammon.

    image
    I reckon at least three of those are dead by now.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4
    Was it really necessary to post that?
    As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.

    The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
    Osborne lickspittle at work still I see.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857

    You might also wonder how many Brits will say ok, we'll take our hols at home instead.
    For the sake of £7 ? None.
    You misunderstand my point. It's not about money, although for families it's not just £7 (payable every 3 years), it's about principle. The EU that apparently wants us all to feel the bleak midwinter is not endearing itself to many leavers and they will look for alternatives.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    Charles said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh god. We really are fucked, aren't we?
    It’ll be fun.

    I’m really looking forward to No Deal.

    We survived WWII we can survive this.
    Apart from the sixty million people who died, obvs.
    You need to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

    A bit of short term pain for the long term gain of Rejoining.
    I’ve been reading Sapiens (highly recommended) on the agricultural revolution.

    Argument is that individual Homo sapiens suffered from the shift but there was a massive increase in number, so from a purely evolutionary numbers game it was a win for the species.

    If you assume that concepts (say “nationalism”) have the same “desire” to spread as genes (I think was the original idea behind the concept of meme, rather than cat pictures) then something like Brexit could be seen in a similar light

    The “British idea” avoids been subsumed into “European idea” even though it is costly to British individuals
    Fascinating book isn’t it. I found a site where Harari is reading it. Hadn’t thought of that parallel, but you’re right.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?
    I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)

    Anyway, his/her idea was:

    A two stage referendum

    First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No

    If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
    May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No Deal
    I'm not sure I want TMay's deal, with its indefinite backstop. I think Remain is probably preferable, however humiliating.

    Of course if there was a sensible Leave option, I'd far prefer that. But, there isn't.
    May's Deal is imperfect but ends free movement and leaves the EU, if we Remain now we will likely never leave
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Charles said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    Deal vs No deal (which I think you are suggesting) would be legitimate

    But Parliament won’t give that
    If there is one it'll be deal v remain. There is no point in Deal v No Deal since everyone knows that means Deal and Parliament has the power to vote that through anyway, without the delay, uncertainty and potential market and political turmoil of a referendum.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857

    If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
    I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
    Precisely. When remainers were arguing we would be thousands per household worse off and leavers were saying we would be hundreds of millions as a nation better off ... truly this is chickenfeed.
    Beyond the wit or intellect of Leavers to understand that @ $1.25/€1.10 (today, just wait for a no deal) they could indeed be thousands of pounds worse off.

    Unless of course as has been mentioned, everyone goes to Clacton where the laws of supply and demand will be voluntarily suspended.
    As it is valid for three years, you'd have to go to the EU for several hundred years for it to cost thousands!
    huh? You have lost thousands on the exchange rate when you buy your straw donkey in torremelinos.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Oort said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?
    I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)

    Anyway, his/her idea was:

    A two stage referendum

    First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No

    If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
    May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No Deal
    Indeed. I prefer the first order because Remain would have a better chance of winning. But May's deal is not going to be an option in any referendum. Say there is (or would be) a 200 Commons majority against it. A hundred MPs who think it's a crock would have to vote to put it to the electorate.

    If there were more sanity, people would shake hands and realise that the option that pisses off fewest rational people least is the status quo, Remain. Spartan if.
    No Remain would see a far right party surge, the Deal remains the only compromise
  • XenonXenon Posts: 471
    SeanT said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andrew said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30?
    We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.

    You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.
    Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.
    Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.
    I really didn't think that through did I? Still it seems to be a la mode these days.
    Actually the EU has said we can rejoin with the same deal we had. Not Cameron's deal. but the status quo before his "renegotiation".
    So we will be even more entwined in the EU after a vote to leave it completely than if we'd voted to remain.

    Sums it all up doesn't it?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    SeanT said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm on the verge of changing my mind. It is looking increasingly likely that Brexit, like Basil's duck, is off. Not because the chef is pissed in this case but rather sunk by its own contradictions. Only Corbyn can save it and why would he. It appears that Brexit cannot happen for the very reason that its most ardent supporters say that it must, i.e. to regain our sovereignty. Because if we need to regain our sovereignty, it means that we have lost it. And if we have lost it, it follows that even if we want to leave the European Union we effectively cannot. Which is precisely where we are. We can't leave without a deal because that would trash the economy and lead to bloodshed in Ireland, and we can't leave with a deal because all available deals tie us so close that it's not really worth leaving. It's a killer. Brexit is impossible because it is necessary and necessary because it is impossible. We can sum this up with a slogan, which I normally dislike but for this I will make an exception.

    Brexit Means No Brexit.

    I tend to agree with you, but parliamentary arithmetic - and Jeremy Corbyn - mean we are headed for No Deal. Brexit means Brexit and it now cannot be stopped, and Brexit means No Deal, and Brexit on March 29
    Corbyn's policy though is permanent Customs Union not No Deal so that would be the end result
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.

    It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
    Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on tned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
    Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to whf the EU to me.
    Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.

    The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.

    It will be ugly.
    really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurts
    I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.

    Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.
    thats the problem with Varadkar hes been winding up the green tub thumpers to get votes. I cant respect the man since he has undone a decade of solid work to normalise realations between UK and RoI and all because he wants to win an election.
    Nah Alan - and all because the UK fucked with the status quo.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    kinabalu said:

    Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?

    A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.

    That is the message I am hearing.
    its ramping bullshit
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857

    If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
    I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
    It's not about the cost, it's about the symbolism. It will be the first concrete example of what May's obsessive anti-immigrant vindictiveness has cost the UK.
    I think most Leave voters would happily pay 7 Euros once a year for a trip to Spain if it ends free movement which is what most working class Leavers voted Leave for
    I doubt it will cost anything. It costs nothing to get a visa to Australia which lasts a year. You just do it online beforehand, the same way, these days, you have to fill in passport details to get a plane ticket.

    This is a trivial diversion. There will be 30 seconds extra paperwork to travel between the EU and the UK.

    It's all the other shit that is worrying.
    Yes it is a trivial issue
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    Deal vs No deal (which I think you are suggesting) would be legitimate

    But Parliament won’t give that
    If there is one it'll be deal v remain. There is no point in Deal v No Deal since everyone knows that means Deal and Parliament has the power to vote that through anyway, without the delay, uncertainty and potential market and political turmoil of a referendum.
    Exactly plus imagine a "no deal" instruction. What, none whatsoever, no itty-bitty deals on aviation, medicines, etc? Forbidden by popular acclaim.

    What bollocks jeez Leavers are thick.
  • TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857

    If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
    I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
    Precisely. When remainers were arguing we would be thousands per household worse off and leavers were saying we would be hundreds of millions as a nation better off ... truly this is chickenfeed.
    Beyond the wit or intellect of Leavers to understand that @ $1.25/€1.10 (today, just wait for a no deal) they could indeed be thousands of pounds worse off.

    Unless of course as has been mentioned, everyone goes to Clacton where the laws of supply and demand will be voluntarily suspended.
    As it is valid for three years, you'd have to go to the EU for several hundred years for it to cost thousands!
    huh? You have lost thousands on the exchange rate when you buy your straw donkey in torremelinos.
    No I have not.

    I'm paid in sterling, spend in sterling and inflation in the UK has been low.

    I'd have to spend tens of thousands abroad to have lost thousands on the exchange rate. I don't.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    kinabalu said:

    Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?

    A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.

    That is the message I am hearing.
    its ramping bullshit
    It's not at all. It's the talk of the island right now.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,764

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857

    If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
    I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
    It's not about the cost, it's about the symbolism. It will be the first concrete example of what May's obsessive anti-immigrant vindictiveness has cost the UK.
    Hardly, It's trivial.
    Again, symbolism, not cost.

    It represents May successfully denuding UK citizens of the rights they've possessed for 40 years to live, love and work in 28 countries.

    It's a symbol of the stripping of those rights away from UK citizens, and the pride with which she has done it.

    This 7 euro fee is your grovelling to the EU saying "Please let me in; I acknowledge Mrs May has stripped me of my rights".

    It's powerfully symbolic, and will stand as a totem that everything May tried to take away from us.

    Or at least it would if we were leaving the EU, which we aren't.
    Most Leave voters don't want free migration. It's why Vote Leave made such a big issue of it. It's supported by left wing Europhiles.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    HYUFD said:

    Oort said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?
    I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)

    Anyway, his/her idea was:

    A two stage referendum

    First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No

    If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
    May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No Deal
    Indeed. I prefer the first order because Remain would have a better chance of winning. But May's deal is not going to be an option in any referendum. Say there is (or would be) a 200 Commons majority against it. A hundred MPs who think it's a crock would have to vote to put it to the electorate.

    If there were more sanity, people would shake hands and realise that the option that pisses off fewest rational people least is the status quo, Remain. Spartan if.
    No Remain would see a far right party surge, the Deal remains the only compromise
    Why would it? I think we have been assured that leavers aren't closet fascists.
  • HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?
    I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)

    Anyway, his/her idea was:

    A two stage referendum

    First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No

    If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
    May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No Deal
    Just skip the first question as that has already been asked and go straight to Deal vs No Deal. Deal would win easily.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,764

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4
    Was it really necessary to post that?
    As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.

    The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
    Didn't you vote for Brexit?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited December 2018
    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?

    A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.

    That is the message I am hearing.
    Where in the GFA does it say that there cannot be a customs border?
    It doesn't. But there's a firm commitment from both the Irish and UK government to avoid it.

    The UK government agreed to finding a solution to NI border as part of the timetabling of the A50 negotiations. The EU will not agree to starting trade talks until a legally-binding guarantee of no border between the Republic and Northern Ireland is in force.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    edited December 2018
    SeanT said:


    I doubt it will cost anything. It costs nothing to get a visa to Australia which lasts a year. You just do it online beforehand, the same way, these days, you have to fill in passport details to get a plane ticket.

    IIUC the reason the US and the EU do it is to fund the bureaucratic program that's collecting your data, and theoretically doing some kind of security thing with it. If TMay is sticking around for a bit it feels quite hard to imagine her missing an opportunity like this for a bigger surveillance program funded by foreigners, although she'll wait for a terrorist attack to hang it on.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.

    It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
    Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.

    Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
    Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.

    The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
    Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.

    The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.

    It will be ugly.
    really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurts
    One positive aspect of no deal chaos would be seeing that pathetic little turd panic.
    Varadkar would be the leader of his country in a crisis imposed by the traditional oppressor.

    Whoever presses the button here will be the architect of our misfortunes.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.

    It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
    Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.

    Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
    Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.

    The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
    Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.

    The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.

    It will be ugly.
    really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurts
    I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.

    Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.
    You can't really blame anyone in Europe, particularly the Irish, from enjoying a little schadenfreude at the unholy mess we have landed ourselves in.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?

    A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.

    That is the message I am hearing.
    Where in the GFA does it say that there cannot be a customs border?
    Rob you're still slightly missing the point. As @grabby has pointed out to you.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    HYUFD said:


    If we vote to Remain before Brexit Day amd cancel Article 50 as the ECJ have made clear we can Remain on current terms.

    Sure, but the OP was talking about leaving, then re-applying to join. Presumably it'd be a relatively quick process, but by default we'd have none of the opt-outs we have now.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857

    If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
    I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
    Precisely. When remainers were arguing we would be thousands per household worse off and leavers were saying we would be hundreds of millions as a nation better off ... truly this is chickenfeed.
    Beyond the wit or intellect of Leavers to understand that @ $1.25/€1.10 (today, just wait for a no deal) they could indeed be thousands of pounds worse off.

    Unless of course as has been mentioned, everyone goes to Clacton where the laws of supply and demand will be voluntarily suspended.
    As it is valid for three years, you'd have to go to the EU for several hundred years for it to cost thousands!
    huh? You have lost thousands on the exchange rate when you buy your straw donkey in torremelinos.
    No I have not.

    I'm paid in sterling, spend in sterling and inflation in the UK has been low.

    I'd have to spend tens of thousands abroad to have lost thousands on the exchange rate. I don't.
    I know not you. But for people who neither live in a basement nor have a Custom Strike Force Full Control Leather Games Chair, they do.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,764
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.

    It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
    Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.

    Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
    Because beinan blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
    Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU nace, the Enemy.

    It will be ugly.
    really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurts
    I confess Iit gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.
    The Republic of Ireland is not even in the Commonwealth and does not have the Queen as its Head of State and is in the Eurozone, it is now no more a British ally than Belgium. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Caribbean states, the USA, Austria, Italy, Switzerland etc are all closer allies of the UK now than Ireland
    Fair enough, But eurovision votes, pre Brexit, suggested otherwise, as did the coordination between Ireland and the UK within the EU. The UK is one reason Ireland's corporate tax regime has survived. We were a shield.

    Once we are gone, France and Germany will say to Dublin, OK we protected you over Brexit, now we want repayment. The price will be Ireland's unusual tax arrangements, Just watch,
    That will have to go.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,843
    SeanT said:

    I tend to agree with you, but parliamentary arithmetic - and Jeremy Corbyn - mean we are headed for No Deal. Brexit means Brexit and it now cannot be stopped, and Brexit means No Deal, and Brexit on March 29

    You may be right but I still think No Deal will be averted.

    My current 'most likely unlikely' is that Labour will do one of the following:

    (i) Do a deal with May. Agree to let the WA through in return for a GE soon after.

    (ii) Do a deal with DUP. Form minority govt just for Brexit. Extend art 50, negotiate their BINO deal, perhaps offer that to the public vs remain in a ref, then a GE.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4
    Was it really necessary to post that?
    As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.

    The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
    Didn't you vote for Brexit?
    Oh yes. I felt that the UK needed to go through this process of inevitable chaos as a kind of ceremonial blood-letting as we realize the true cost and consequences of something we were told would be cost and consequence free.

    As the public are now becoming aware of the true horror of the fantasies of UK politicians, I am delighted. Things are playing out just as I hoped and expected they would.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr HYUFD,

    May's Deal is imperfect but ends free movement and leaves the EU,"

    Does it? on what date does this occur without the EU giving permission? And why would they? I can think of at least 39 billion reasons why not?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.

    Speaking of which, and I say this because I think @FrancisUrquhart is a fan, there should be a cracking fight tonight at York Hall - Larry Ekundayo, who lost, with a damaged hand, to Gary Corcoran, who then went on to fight Manny, is defending his IBF Welterweight strap vs. Louis Greene. He (Larry) should go far beyond this defence.

    I'll be there (next PB get together??!) but it's also being live-streamed on BoxNation.
    I do love a good live tear up. Not been for donkeys years, closest I have been in recent years is when my hotel reservation got messed up and I was relocated to a hotel in central Swindon in which from the 10 floor I got a cracking view of the Friday night carnage.
    LOL York Hall is priceless. On fight night it's the politest place on earth. Everyone is please, thank you, I'm sorrying because no one knows how tasty anyone else is or whether they've come mob handed. A real lesson in mutual deterrent.
  • Scott_P said:
    What this says to me is two things:

    1. For all their bluster, the EU are quite worried that, if they announced a figure any higher than this minimal fee, then people about to book holidays to Southern Europe over Christmas would look to destinations beyond the EU borders. It confirms the EU's weakness not their strength, tourism being one contributor to the UK's huge balance of trade deficit with the EU.

    2. It is a reminder of the UK's own silence on making similar announcements on how we would operate post Brexit in the absence of a trade agreement, which could potentially bring home to EU countries the threat to their export markets. That gives the game away that the UK is still not seriously planning for that scenario and would rather fold in negotiations than end up there.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andrew said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30?
    We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.

    You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.
    Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.
    Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.
    I really didn't think that through did I? Still it seems to be a la mode these days.
    Actually the EU has said we can rejoin with the same deal we had. Not Cameron's deal. but the status quo before his "renegotiation".
    So we will be even more entwined in the EU after a vote to leave it completely than if we'd voted to remain.

    Sums it all up doesn't it?
    Given the abilities on display from our politicians I suspect many will think the more entwined the better. The idea of being a rule taker from the EU has a certain appeal, it limits the ability of the Brits to screw everything up!
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Hold on. Didn't you vote for all this? Or did I miss something?
    Yep, I voted for this. I still think it was the right moral choice. We should be Out. I had under-estimated, however, the complete nightmare that is Article 50 (which, of course, should not and would not exist if we had been given our promised referendum, and then voted down the Lisbon Treaty).

    Leaving under A50 without extreme pain is almost impossible. It is definitely impossible if you are led by a stubborn, autistic heifer with the political skills of the Ebola virus. From that first speech setting out her red lines, to the needless triggering of A50, on and on she went, error after error.

    Now we are truly screwed.
    Article 50 would still exist (although of course be of no relevance to us).

    I do query, however, the assumption that 'no' would have won a referendum on the Lisbon treaty (pre-Brown's signing), or that a 'no' would have automatically have led to us leaving the EU.

    A referendum on Lisbon *after* Brown had signed would have been an expensive and meaningless affair.
    A No to Lisbon pre-ratification wouldn't have meant us leaving the EU, which is why it would have been won by 2:1 if not 3:1, it would have been seen as a risk-free way of saying No to centralisation.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4
    Was it really necessary to post that?
    As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.

    The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
    Didn't you vote for Brexit?
    Oh yes. I felt that the UK needed to go through this process of inevitable chaos as a kind of ceremonial blood-letting as we realize the true cost and consequences of something we were told would be cost and consequence free.

    As the public are now becoming aware of the true horror of the fantasies of UK politicians, I am delighted. Things are playing out just as I hoped and expected they would.
    What an absurd reason to vote for it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    daodao said:

    Charles said:

    Good. They are being very helpful at the moment
    Supporting anarchy is utterly irresponsible. The sooner Macron gets France back under full control, the better for the whole of Europe and the EU.
    There’s a reason that I can’t talk about
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,764

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4
    Was it really necessary to post that?
    As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.

    The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
    Didn't you vote for Brexit?
    Oh yes. I felt that the UK needed to go through this process of inevitable chaos as a kind of ceremonial blood-letting as we realize the true cost and consequences of something we were told would be cost and consequence free.

    As the public are now becoming aware of the true horror of the fantasies of UK politicians, I am delighted. Things are playing out just as I hoped and expected they would.
    The Worst is rarely the Best.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,545

    Oort said:

    Scott_P said:
    To use a Christmas theme, we want all parties and factions in the British parliament to feel the bleak midwinter,” said a senior EU source.

    With friends like these...
    That observation would be better applied to the DUP. Have any senior Tories got the guts to stand up to them?
    The DUP is right this time, isn't it?
    If the DUP VONC May, she'll go to the Lib Dems.

    Driving May into the arms of Vince is not on the DUP battleplan.
    Maybe that's her way out.

    DUP ditch her.

    The LDs are the only bidder, they want a second referendum.

    May says to the Tories, it's a second referendum or Corbyn (oh and I will step down).

    she's in such a weak position, I'd want the Lib Dems to push for PR for local elections and legalisation of cannabis as part of the deal. To be legislated for first / concurrently.

    If T May needs to call a referendum and beg the Lib Dems, she'll be so needy there will be a hell of a price to pay.
  • CD13 said:

    Mr HYUFD,

    May's Deal is imperfect but ends free movement and leaves the EU,"

    Does it? on what date does this occur without the EU giving permission? And why would they? I can think of at least 39 billion reasons why not?

    Given today’s actions it is more evidence that not only will they obviously and rightly look to protect their own interests, but are hell bent on making the uk pay for wanting to leave. There is no mutually beneficial thinking going on.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?
    I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)

    Anyway, his/her idea was:

    A two stage referendum

    First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No

    If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
    May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No Deal
    Just skip the first question as that has already been asked and go straight to Deal vs No Deal. Deal would win easily.
    Which is why it is pointless and won't happen. Your first is an argument that can be played against having a vote at all, the counter to which is that it would be the first vote on actual terms. If however there is a second vote it wont feature no deal, for reasons that have been done to death.
  • OortOort Posts: 96
    HYUFD said:

    Oort said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?
    I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)

    Anyway, his/her idea was:

    A two stage referendum

    First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No

    If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
    May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No Deal
    Indeed. I prefer the first order because Remain would have a better chance of winning. But May's deal is not going to be an option in any referendum. Say there is (or would be) a 200 Commons majority against it. A hundred MPs who think it's a crock would have to vote to put it to the electorate.

    If there were more sanity, people would shake hands and realise that the option that pisses off fewest rational people least is the status quo, Remain. Spartan if.
    No Remain would see a far right party surge, the Deal remains the only compromise
    I said "rational" people. The far right didn't put up much of a showing on last Sunday's demonstration and newspapers can if necessary be nationalised or shut down. It's about time for Lord Pearson and the far right to be taken on and given a damned hard thrashing.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Scott_P said:
    What this says to me is two things:

    1. For all their bluster, the EU are quite worried that, if they announced a figure any higher than this minimal fee, then people about to book holidays to Southern Europe over Christmas would look to destinations beyond the EU borders. It confirms the EU's weakness not their strength, tourism being one contributor to the UK's huge balance of trade deficit with the EU.

    2. It is a reminder of the UK's own silence on making similar announcements on how we would operate post Brexit in the absence of a trade agreement, which could potentially bring home to EU countries the threat to their export markets. That gives the game away that the UK is still not seriously planning for that scenario and would rather fold in negotiations than end up there.
    2 assumes we have any idea or clue in what we are doing. Watching TMay this week it should be obvious that we haven't planned or thought of anything we simply react to this minute's crisis.....
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.

    It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
    Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.

    Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
    After last night, surely you can't keep up the pretence that the "backstop" isn't supposed to be permanent?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4
    Was it really necessary to post that?
    As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.

    The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
    Didn't you vote for Brexit?
    Oh yes. I felt that the UK needed to go through this process of inevitable chaos as a kind of ceremonial blood-letting as we realize the true cost and consequences of something we were told would be cost and consequence free.

    As the public are now becoming aware of the true horror of the fantasies of UK politicians, I am delighted. Things are playing out just as I hoped and expected they would.
    What an absurd reason to vote for it.
    I know, right? Chaos is a great leveller.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    Deal vs No deal (which I think you are suggesting) would be legitimate

    But Parliament won’t give that
    If there is one it'll be deal v remain. There is no point in Deal v No Deal since everyone knows that means Deal and Parliament has the power to vote that through anyway, without the delay, uncertainty and potential market and political turmoil of a referendum.
    Exactly plus imagine a "no deal" instruction. What, none whatsoever, no itty-bitty deals on aviation, medicines, etc? Forbidden by popular acclaim.

    What bollocks jeez Leavers are thick.
    No medicine? No flights? No cooperation on any matter whatsoever, however trivial, or however vital?
    Will of the people, intit?
    That is why No Deal cannot be on a ballot. Any PM doing so would be utterly irresponsible to suggest it.
    So not ruled out then.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4
    Was it really necessary to post that?
    As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.

    The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
    Didn't you vote for Brexit?
    Oh yes. I felt that the UK needed to go through this process of inevitable chaos as a kind of ceremonial blood-letting as we realize the true cost and consequences of something we were told would be cost and consequence free.

    As the public are now becoming aware of the true horror of the fantasies of UK politicians, I am delighted. Things are playing out just as I hoped and expected they would.
    What an absurd reason to vote for it.
    He didn't. He's a bullshitting arsehole of the first order.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Charles said:

    daodao said:

    Charles said:

    Good. They are being very helpful at the moment
    Supporting anarchy is utterly irresponsible. The sooner Macron gets France back under full control, the better for the whole of Europe and the EU.
    There’s a reason that I can’t talk about
    L'état c'est toi, Charles?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Norm said:

    RobD said:


    What an absurd reason to vote for it.

    He didn't. He's a bullshitting arsehole of the first order.
    I cannot prove it to you, of course. But I most certainly did vote to leave, in the sure and certain hope it would be chaos.

    Don't make me explain the whole Vorlon/Shadow thing again.
  • Labour split on its way
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.

    Speaking of which, and I say this because I think @FrancisUrquhart is a fan, there should be a cracking fight tonight at York Hall - Larry Ekundayo, who lost, with a damaged hand, to Gary Corcoran, who then went on to fight Manny, is defending his IBF Welterweight strap vs. Louis Greene. He (Larry) should go far beyond this defence.

    I'll be there (next PB get together??!) but it's also being live-streamed on BoxNation.
    I do love a good live tear up. Not been for donkeys years, closest I have been in recent years is when my hotel reservation got messed up and I was relocated to a hotel in central Swindon in which from the 10 floor I got a cracking view of the Friday night carnage.
    LOL York Hall is priceless. On fight night it's the politest place on earth. Everyone is please, thank you, I'm sorrying because no one knows how tasty anyone else is or whether they've come mob handed. A real lesson in mutual deterrent.
    The idiot drunks who tried to start fights after mcgregor vs khahid fight found that out the painful way. Going to a big MMA event where a significant percentage of the audience train in MMA and then going wildly swinging after 10 pints is as stupid as trying to get any sense out of junker after lunchtime.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    dixiedean said:

    TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    Deal vs No deal (which I think you are suggesting) would be legitimate

    But Parliament won’t give that
    If there is one it'll be deal v remain. There is no point in Deal v No Deal since everyone knows that means Deal and Parliament has the power to vote that through anyway, without the delay, uncertainty and potential market and political turmoil of a referendum.
    Exactly plus imagine a "no deal" instruction. What, none whatsoever, no itty-bitty deals on aviation, medicines, etc? Forbidden by popular acclaim.

    What bollocks jeez Leavers are thick.
    No medicine? No flights? No cooperation on any matter whatsoever, however trivial, or however vital?
    Will of the people, intit?
    That is why No Deal cannot be on a ballot. Any PM doing so would be utterly irresponsible to suggest it.
    So not ruled out then.
    LOL indeed!

    But seriously, folks, it can't be on there it's just fantasy.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Charles said:

    daodao said:

    Charles said:

    Good. They are being very helpful at the moment
    Supporting anarchy is utterly irresponsible. The sooner Macron gets France back under full control, the better for the whole of Europe and the EU.
    There’s a reason that I can’t talk about
    I suspect that Charles used to be the leader of that group of men in the smoked-filled room in the X-files. He probably has Assistant Director Skinner advising Macron whilst Mulder and Scully infiltrate Calais looking for illegal aliens.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Where will these troubles come from? Do you really think SF would begin killing again? What would they gain?

    They have two separate aims. One part of SF has a general Marxist agenda, and the other has a purely nationalistic aim - for a unified Ireland.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?

    A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.

    That is the message I am hearing.
    its ramping bullshit
    It's not at all. It's the talk of the island right now.
    lol bloodshed ? Where ? I was on the island a fortnight ago - nothing. Really its crazy ramping ike this which more likely to bring out the guns than just letting the sleeping dogs lie.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,764

    Norm said:

    RobD said:


    What an absurd reason to vote for it.

    He didn't. He's a bullshitting arsehole of the first order.
    I cannot prove it to you, of course. But I most certainly did vote to leave, in the sure and certain hope it would be chaos.

    Don't make me explain the whole Vorlon/Shadow thing again.
    Chaos rarely turns out well for those who hope to benefit from it.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    SeanT said:


    No, I agree. But they are pushing it too far. And creating an enemy.

    I look forward to seeing you at the vanguard of JRM's tank brigade as it rolls into Dublin.
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634
    Scott_P said:

    To use a Christmas theme, we want all parties and factions in the British parliament to feel the bleak midwinter,” said a senior EU source.

    With friends like these...

    They were our friends.

    We told them fuck off.
    No they weren't, and no we didn't.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.

    It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
    Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.

    Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
    Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.

    The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
    Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU nace, the Enemy.

    It will be ugly.
    really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurts
    I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.

    Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.
    The Republic of Ireland is not even in the Commonwealth and does not have the Queen as its Head of State and is in the Eurozone, it is now no more a British ally than Belgium. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Caribbean states, the USA, Austria, Italy, Switzerland etc are all closer allies of the UK now than Ireland
    I've been to half those countries, including Australia, but never been to Ireland. Probably the same for many Brits.
  • rpjs said:

    Scott_P said:

    I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857

    You might also wonder how many Brits will say ok, we'll take our hols at home instead.
    Costs $14 for Brits to get a two-year ESTA to the US and it doesn’t stop ‘em from coming to see
    the Mouse.
    I nearly missed a flight trying to get the ESTA thing done on my phone in the airport using their atrocious government website. If I'd known about it in advance it wouldn't have been hard but that particular "fuck you from america" experience is definitely an extra reason I try to avoid going there.

    6 euros is even dumber than $17, because so even more of the revenue from the fee gets pissed away on collecting it, especially if you count the cost of the time, hassle and cognitive load you put on the traveller. If they really need to squeeze revenue out of people arriving they'd be much better sticking a bit extra on the airline tax or whatever that they're already collecting.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545
    OllyT said:



    You can't really blame anyone in Europe, particularly the Irish, from enjoying a little schadenfreude at the unholy mess we have landed ourselves in.

    Ironic really that Brexit has put the Irish in a position to bully the British, after centuries of the boot being on the other foot.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Harriet Baldwin meets Ethiopian community leaders to try and develop trading links with Ethiopia.

    If we go to No Deal maybe they can do Live Aid 2 from Addis Ababa for us as we near starvation and face medicine shortages?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/hbaldwin/status/1073286457324916736
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited December 2018
    Sean_F said:

    Norm said:

    RobD said:


    What an absurd reason to vote for it.

    He didn't. He's a bullshitting arsehole of the first order.
    I cannot prove it to you, of course. But I most certainly did vote to leave, in the sure and certain hope it would be chaos.

    Don't make me explain the whole Vorlon/Shadow thing again.
    Chaos rarely turns out well for those who hope to benefit from it.
    I don't expect to gain personally. I genuinely think stripping away forty years of bullshit and exposing the awful truth behind Brexiteer delusions and how the EU would really treat as us a third country has been beneficial. Enlightening, even.

    We are a wiser nation now than we were on referendum day, and I played my part.

    If there is a second referendum, and no deal is an option, I shall vote for that.
  • rpjs said:

    Scott_P said:

    I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857

    You might also wonder how many Brits will say ok, we'll take our hols at home instead.
    Costs $14 for Brits to get a two-year ESTA to the US and it doesn’t stop ‘em from coming to see
    the Mouse.
    I nearly missed a flight trying to get the ESTA thing done on my phone in the airport using their atrocious government website. If I'd known about it in advance it wouldn't have been hard but that particular "fuck you from america" experience is definitely an extra reason I try to avoid going there.

    6 euros is even dumber than $17, because so even more of the revenue from the fee gets pissed away on collecting it, especially if you count the cost of the time, hassle and cognitive load you put on the traveller. If they really need to squeeze revenue out of people arriving they'd be much better sticking a bit extra on the airline tax or whatever that they're already collecting.
    They are claiming it is because of the migrant crisis...I’m not sure many of the people illegally smuggled in on boats will be filling it somehow...
  • Donny43 said:

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.

    It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
    Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.

    Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
    After last night, surely you can't keep up the pretence that the "backstop" isn't supposed to be permanent?
    Eh? You think the EU want to lock us into the Single market and Customs Union, with 100% of the economic advantages of membership, without us paying a bean for it and without us having to commit to freedom of movement?

    Of all the many mad ideas floating round, that is one of the very maddest.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.

    Speaking of which, and I say this because I think @FrancisUrquhart is a fan, there should be a cracking fight tonight at York Hall - Larry Ekundayo, who lost, with a damaged hand, to Gary Corcoran, who then went on to fight Manny, is defending his IBF Welterweight strap vs. Louis Greene. He (Larry) should go far beyond this defence.

    I'll be there (next PB get together??!) but it's also being live-streamed on BoxNation.
    I do love a good live tear up. Not been for donkeys years, closest I have been in recent years is when my hotel reservation got messed up and I was relocated to a hotel in central Swindon in which from the 10 floor I got a cracking view of the Friday night carnage.
    LOL York Hall is priceless. On fight night it's the politest place on earth. Everyone is please, thank you, I'm sorrying because no one knows how tasty anyone else is or whether they've come mob handed. A real lesson in mutual deterrent.
    The idiot drunks who tried to start fights after mcgregor vs khahid fight found that out the painful way. Going to a big MMA event where a significant percentage of the audience train in MMA and then going wildly swinging after 10 pints is as stupid as trying to get any sense out of junker after lunchtime.
    haha not quite that mad...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.

    It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
    Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.

    Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
    Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.

    The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
    Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU nace, the Enemy.

    It will be ugly.
    really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurts
    I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ritain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.
    The Republic of Ireland is not even in the Commonwealth and does not have the Queen as its Head of State and is in the Eurozone, it is now no more a British ally than Belgium. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Caribbean states, the USA, Austria, Italy, Switzerland etc are all closer allies of the UK now than Ireland
    I've been to half those countries, including Australia, but never been to Ireland. Probably the same for many Brits.
    I have been to the Republic once, beautiful countryside but I remember I visited the Michael Collins assassination site and a local garage and not much pro British there
  • Increasingly I think Europe is facing economic disaster. ECB QE is stopping. Italy is in very serious trouble (look at bond yields). A recession is looming.

    Add in a no-deal Brexit and kaboom!

    Perhaps they should throw May a bone for their own self interest.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,179
    "A festive download to share with your loved one" :-)

    Not if you want to keep them... OGH being a bit of a wag there.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Varadkar has problems with his Fine Gael supporters. One of my Irish brother-in-laws always vote FG but smiles indulgently when we discuss Leo. It's always a good vote-winner to tease the UK.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited December 2018

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?

    A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.

    That is the message I am hearing.
    its ramping bullshit
    It's not at all. It's the talk of the island right now.
    lol bloodshed ? Where ? I was on the island a fortnight ago - nothing. Really its crazy ramping ike this which more likely to bring out the guns than just letting the sleeping dogs lie.
    https://belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/1100-bombs-and-shootings-in-10-years-the-figures-that-prove-terrorism-hasnt-gone-away-34672253.html

    Alan you've been away a while. This shit never stopped.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Doesn't seem to be confirmed anywhere.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    TOPPING said:

    dixiedean said:

    TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    Deal vs No deal (which I think you are suggesting) would be legitimate

    But Parliament won’t give that
    If there is one it'll be deal v remain. There is no point in Deal v No Deal since everyone knows that means Deal and Parliament has the power to vote that through anyway, without the delay, uncertainty and potential market and political turmoil of a referendum.
    Exactly plus imagine a "no deal" instruction. What, none whatsoever, no itty-bitty deals on aviation, medicines, etc? Forbidden by popular acclaim.

    What bollocks jeez Leavers are thick.
    No medicine? No flights? No cooperation on any matter whatsoever, however trivial, or however vital?
    Will of the people, intit?
    That is why No Deal cannot be on a ballot. Any PM doing so would be utterly irresponsible to suggest it.
    So not ruled out then.
    LOL indeed!

    But seriously, folks, it can't be on there it's just fantasy.
    Basic misunderstanding of the concept.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2018
    CD13 said:

    Mr HYUFD,

    May's Deal is imperfect but ends free movement and leaves the EU,"

    Does it? on what date does this occur without the EU giving permission? And why would they? I can think of at least 39 billion reasons why not?

    As soon as we leave the EU and single market but fanatics like you will end up with BINO or EUref2 and Remain soon enough and full free movement back
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited December 2018
    CD13 said:

    Where will these troubles come from? Do you really think SF would begin killing again? What would they gain?

    They have two separate aims. One part of SF has a general Marxist agenda, and the other has a purely nationalistic aim - for a unified Ireland.

    Stick one customs post on the Buncrana Road and all your questions will be answered.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited December 2018


    Eh? You think the EU want to lock us into the Single market and Customs Union, with 100% of the economic advantages of membership, without us paying a bean for it and without us having to commit to freedom of movement?

    Of all the many mad ideas floating round, that is one of the very maddest.

    You don't think the fact that they made a point of actually *removing* May's text about the backstop being undesirable for the Union, and replaced it with text actually *affirming* the backstop being vital for the integrity of the single market might signify... something?

    The EU hates the backstop so much they've used an EUCO communique to actually re-affirm their commitment to it, in direct contravention of UK demands.

    That's an odd way of showing how much they hate it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Oort said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    No.

    Why do you hate democracy?
    Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.

    With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.

    I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
    The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?
    I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)

    Anyway, his/her idea was:

    A two stage referendum

    First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No

    If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
    May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No Deal
    Indeed. I prefer the first order because Remain would have a better chance of winning. But May's deal is not going to be an option in any referendum. Say there is (or would be) a 200 Commons majority against it. A hundred MPs who think it's a crock would have to vote to put it to the electorate.

    If there were more sanity, people would shake hands and realise that the option that pisses off fewest rational people least is the status quo, Remain. Spartan if.
    No Remain would see a far right party surge, the Deal remains the only compromise
    Why would it? I think we have been assured that leavers aren't closet fascists.
    UKIP or Farage 2 wpjld be on 20 to 30% within a year
  • XenonXenon Posts: 471

    Increasingly I think Europe is facing economic disaster. ECB QE is stopping. Italy is in very serious trouble (look at bond yields). A recession is looming.

    Add in a no-deal Brexit and kaboom!

    Perhaps they should throw May a bone for their own self interest.

    They need us there to fund the Italian and German bank bailouts that are coming.

    That will go down a treat here if we remain.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,764

    Sean_F said:

    Norm said:

    RobD said:


    What an absurd reason to vote for it.

    He didn't. He's a bullshitting arsehole of the first order.
    I cannot prove it to you, of course. But I most certainly did vote to leave, in the sure and certain hope it would be chaos.

    Don't make me explain the whole Vorlon/Shadow thing again.
    Chaos rarely turns out well for those who hope to benefit from it.
    I don't expect to gain personally. I genuinely think stripping away forty years of bullshit and exposing the awful truth behind Brexiteer delusions and how the EU would really treat as us a third country has been beneficial. Enlightening, even.

    We are a wiser nation now than we were on referendum day, and I played my part.

    If there is a second referendum, and no deal is an option, I shall vote for that.
    Still seems to me like the attitude of German Communists in the early thirties.

    If you think EU membership is good for the UK, you should vote for it. If you don't, you should vote against.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
    OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.

    Let's have another vote.
    Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.

    It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
    Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.

    Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
    Because beinan blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
    Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU nace, the Enemy.

    It will be ugly.
    really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurts
    I confess Iit gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.
    The Republic of Ireland is not even in the Commonwealth and does not have the Queen as its Head of State and is in the Eurozone, it is now no more a British ally than Belgium. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Caribbean states, the USA, Austria, Italy, Switzerland etc are all closer allies of the UK now than Ireland
    Fair enough, But eurovision votes, pre Brexit, suggested otherwise, as did the coordination between Ireland and the UK within the EU. The UK is one reason Ireland's corporate tax regime has survived. We were a shield.

    Once we are gone, France and Germany will say to Dublin, OK we protected you over Brexit, now we want repayment. The price will be Ireland's unusual tax arrangements, Just watch,
    We get more Eurovision votes now from Malta than Ireland. Ireland will likely try and deal with Juncker to get a guarantee over its tax position as Luxembourg also has much lower tax than elsewhere in the EU
  • Other thing about ESTA was that the airline staff had a special bit of paper explaining how to get to the right website for it, while avoiding all the scams. That tells you how often people end up at a fake site. Obviously anything that involves a confusing government program and your credit card is a great opportunity for scammers, who will buy ads for all the relevant keywords and make a nice, usable site that's easier to get to than the government's terrible one.

    And even if you get the right website, it'll just be a matter of time until the government leaks your credit card number.
This discussion has been closed.