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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Omnium said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Omnium said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.

    That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!

    Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.

    Sometimes it is not a choice. Sometimes the mother is the one earning the regular / higher salary.

    Indeed. I am quite old fashioned, but if I were to settle down with a woman on a much higher salary than me I would be quite happy to be a stay-at-home dad for five years. I'm not *that* old fashioned - I just believe one or the other parent should be with the child for the first few years of its life.
    CUT
    Congratulations to you and your wife; all the best :smile:
    Thankyou! We are blessed.
    But I describe fatherhood as like growing a clunky third limb in the middle of your chest.

    It gets in the way, stops you from going out, makes sleeping uncomfortable, and even the most routine of tasks challenging.

    But woe betide any f***er that tries to harm the new limb...
    Sounds like being a regular poster on PB :)

    But congratulations old chap (who I suspect is younger than me by a good deal). Great to see more little ones coming into the world.
    Absolutely! Our secret Brexit plans for the reconquest of India require as many as possible...
    Surely a re-inveigling-into-a-position-that-looks-much-like-conquest.

    That’ll be difficult to fit on a leaflet. Will have to revisit.
    I recall the Natural Law party's manifesto of (I guess) 1997. Their leaflet was fantastic! I doubt anyone ever worked out if the tensor maths (I kid you not) was right.
    Where do yogic flyers sit on Brexit?
    https://youtu.be/438UKM1Av1g
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited January 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    SunnyJim said:

    I

    Very true. If Theresa May proceeds from the following assumptions:

    1. We need to leave the European Union because it is what was demanded in the 2016 referendum - and we shouldn't keep asking people to vote repeatedly on the subject
    2. The Withdrawal Agreement is the best way to obey this instruction, whilst maintaining as close a relationship as possible with the European Union
    3. The European Union says that negotiations have concluded and there is nothing else on offer

    Then why shouldn't she just say "I believe in this deal, there is no other deal on the table, take it or leave it?"

    Parliament can demand tisting this.
    This is the problem in a nutshell: that such a significant decision should be turned into a battle of wills between Mrs May and Parliament which Mrs May "must" win. Why? She can't even persuade her own government. If she can't persuade Parliament she has failed at her task.

    She certainly shouldn't be allowed repeatedly to bully Parliament. That's hardly democratic or Parliamentary.

    One of the leavers' criticisms of the EU was that they made people keep on voting to get the "right" decision. Why then should it be OK for May to do the same thing to Parliament?
    I don't think there is any point to her doing so, but to compare rerunning national referendums with votes and debates in a debating chamber is, I think, extraordinary weak and unconvincing. I think it a poor tactic reliant on focusing on the negatives, but again I find the cries of it being bullying and undemocratic preposterous.

    Since you believe PMs and governments, and presumably anyone else, should not be allowed to bully parliament, how hard are they permitted to argue something, what level of gamesmanship is permissible, what, precisely, turns a regular political fight, however intense, into bullying? You surely must have established the line at which arguing hard and maneuvering becomes unacceptable. Is any form of whipping bullying, is talking of negative consequences bullying, or does it have to be a certain level of talking of negative consequences? What if those are true? What if they aren't but the PM believes it? What if no other options command support either, should it be unacceptable to try something again? Is once more ok, but not two? Who decides the line?

    I don't even support May's tactics, and I think the time has long since passed when other outcomes should have been tried, but 'bullying', 'undemocratic'? There's a slither of argument on the latter, but give me a break. The talk of bullying does no one any credit, and it is just plain silly.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    Omnium said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Omnium said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.

    That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!

    Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.

    Sometimes it is not a choice. Sometimes the mother is the one earning the regular / higher salary.

    Indeed. I am quite old fashioned, but if I were to settle down with a woman on a much higher salary than me I would be quite happy to be a stay-at-home dad for five years. I'm not *that* old fashioned - I just believe one or the other parent should be with the child for the first few years of its life.
    CUT
    Congratulations to you and your wife; all the best :smile:
    Thankyou! We are blessed.
    But I describe fatherhood as like growing a clunky third limb in the middle of your chest.

    It gets in the way, stops you from going out, makes sleeping uncomfortable, and even the most routine of tasks challenging.

    But woe betide any f***er that tries to harm the new limb...
    Sounds like being a regular poster on PB :)

    But congratulations old chap (who I suspect is younger than me by a good deal). Great to see more little ones coming into the world.
    Absolutely! Our secret Brexit plans for the reconquest of India require as many as possible...
    Surely a re-inveigling-into-a-position-that-looks-much-like-conquest.

    That’ll be difficult to fit on a leaflet. Will have to revisit.
    I recall the Natural Law party's manifesto of (I guess) 1997. Their leaflet was fantastic! I doubt anyone ever worked out if the tensor maths (I kid you not) was right.
    Where do yogic flyers sit on Brexit?
    https://youtu.be/438UKM1Av1g
    All up in the air, clearly!

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Today we have people vote marches, GE marches, pro Brexit marches, France in protest chaos and Trump not paying state employeees

    Add into that Italy and Poland have entered an alliance to change the EU and Italy are advising the French yellow vest protestors

    China GDP heading for 2% and the Chinese rejecting home built jaguar land rovers as they want British built on them. China and the far east moving over to android smart phones and apple in a nose dive that looks irrecoverable

    We have a HOC that is a disaster and temperatures rising on both sides, each not taking any prisoners

    How did we arrive at this state of chaos.

    For me the HOC should accept TM deal for all its faults and move on. However I suspect next week the remainers, well led by Dominic Grieve, to use all kinds of obscure parliamentary procedures to tilt the UK to remain

    If they are successful I fear for the forceable future, as leavers will not just go away

    My hope is we at least leave on something the HOC can agree on and then it will be perfectly reasonable for remainers to commence a rejoin campaign

    If we vote to Remain, Italy and Poland will find they just got 17.4m new helpers in their efforts to destabilise the EU.....
    Can you imagine the mep's we will send......
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,282
    I think the issue with Brexit, and why the wound really won't heal for a very long time is that it's largely a proxy for greater problems we're utterly divided as to the solution to, namely how we cope in a world where there are fewer certainties and less control. For some, it is to 'take back control' within the nation state - the thing that unites anti-immigrant nationalists, free marketeer Brexit supporters and Lexiteers is their faith in withdrawing from the international status quo to pursue their preferred path. For others, the only way to survive and thrive is to thrust ourselves outward and reform and renew supranational institutions that, although flawed, are a bulwark against disasters, are generally engines of prosperity and the only way of tackling issues that can't be tackled by one country.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,841
    edited January 2019

    Omnium said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Omnium said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.

    That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!

    Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.

    Sometimes it is not a choice. Sometimes the mother is the one earning the regular / higher salary.

    Indeed. I am quite old fashioned, but if I were to settle down with a woman on a much higher salary than me I would be quite happy to be a stay-at-home dad for five years. I'm not *that* old fashioned - I just believe one or the other parent should be with the child for the first few years of its life.
    CUT
    Congratulations to you and your wife; all the best :smile:
    Thankyou! We are blessed.
    But I describe fatherhood as like growing a clunky third limb in the middle of your chest.

    It gets in the way, stops you from going out, makes sleeping uncomfortable, and even the most routine of tasks challenging.

    But woe betide any f***er that tries to harm the new limb...
    Sounds like being a regular poster on PB :)

    But congratulations old chap (who I suspect is younger than me by a good deal). Great to see more little ones coming into the world.
    Absolutely! Our secret Brexit plans for the reconquest of India require as many as possible...
    Surely a re-inveigling-into-a-position-that-looks-much-like-conquest.

    That’ll be difficult to fit on a leaflet. Will have to revisit.
    I recall the Natural Law party's manifesto of (I guess) 1997. Their leaflet was fantastic! I doubt anyone ever worked out if the tensor maths (I kid you not) was right.
    Where do yogic flyers sit on Brexit?
    https://youtu.be/438UKM1Av1g
    Several feet above the ground? Edit Beaten to it by Omnium...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    ...

    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to grow up with absent / distant parents who chose career over care, so forgive me if I'm old fashioned and proud about it when I say that I believe being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.

    Sometimes it is not a choice. Sometimes the mother is the one earning the regular / higher salary.

    Indeed. I am quite old fashioned, but if I were to settle down with a woman on a much higher salary than me I would be quite happy to be a stay-at-home dad for five years. I'm not *that* old fashioned - I just believe one or the other parent should be with the child for the first few years of its life.
    I agree strongly that the government doesn’t support families nearly enough.

    However five years is too long. I have seen research from I think Sweden that suggests that 18 months is optimal, and that for example girls strongly benefit from having working mothers.

    In my own case, my wife returned to work after just six months, but we were lucky to have the means for a superb nanny and my daughter - now 4 - is very happy and well adjusted. My wife is now pregnant again, and we are considering 12 to 18 months but to be honest, more for her benefit that our child’s.
    The mistake that many
    I think that perhaps depends on both work patterns, and the character of your children.
    FWIW, I think we did a pretty good job with our children in their teens, whereas their early years were immensely stressful at times (though that did included two years of relentless sleep deprivation).
    I understand that @Gardenwalker has a new Remainer in his family, congratulations! :)

    Every family is different, with different stresses and relationships, but I would agree with @Cyclefree that parenting teenagers is as stressful or more so than early childhood, though perhaps more of a mental strain than a physical one. The secret is to find something to do together, to maintain a connection, in those critical years. Fox jr likes his football (though not today at the King Power!) and is a keen amateur actor so finding time to ferry him about and chatting on the way, even about trivial subjects has kept us close. It still gives us a connection since he has left home. Lots of stress along the way, but he is a fine young man, despite a few issues, and I would never regret that time.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Floater said:

    Today we have people vote marches, GE marches, pro Brexit marches, France in protest chaos and Trump not paying state employeees

    Add into that Italy and Poland have entered an alliance to change the EU and Italy are advising the French yellow vest protestors

    China GDP heading for 2% and the Chinese rejecting home built jaguar land rovers as they want British built on them. China and the far east moving over to android smart phones and apple in a nose dive that looks irrecoverable

    We have a HOC that is a disaster and temperatures rising on both sides, each not taking any prisoners

    How did we arrive at this state of chaos.

    For me the HOC should accept TM deal for all its faults and move on. However I suspect next week the remainers, well led by Dominic Grieve, to use all kinds of obscure parliamentary procedures to tilt the UK to remain

    If they are successful I fear for the forceable future, as leavers will not just go away

    My hope is we at least leave on something the HOC can agree on and then it will be perfectly reasonable for remainers to commence a rejoin campaign

    If we vote to Remain, Italy and Poland will find they just got 17.4m new helpers in their efforts to destabilise the EU.....
    Can you imagine the mep's we will send......
    Much more pro-EU than our current contingent. Have you seen the kind of things Gerard Batten says in the European Parliament?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Omnium said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Omnium said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.

    That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!

    Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.

    Sometimes it is not a choice. Sometimes the mother is the one earning the regular / higher salary.

    Indets life.
    CUT
    Congratulations to you and your wife; all the best :smile:
    Thankyou! We are blessed.
    But I describe fatherhood as like growing a clunky third limb in the middle of your chest.

    It gets in the way, stops you from going out, makes sleeping uncomfortable, and even the most routine of tasks challenging.

    But woe betide any f***er that tries to harm the new limb...
    Sounds like being a regular poster on PB :)

    But congratulations old chap (who I suspect is younger than me by a good deal). Great to see more little ones coming into the world.
    Absolutely! Our secret Brexit plans for the reconquest of India require as many as possible...
    Surely a re-inveigling-into-a-position-that-looks-much-like-conquest.

    That’ll be difficult to fit on a leaflet. Will have to revisit.
    I recall the Natural Law party's manifesto of (I guess) 1997. Their leaflet was fantastic! I doubt anyone ever worked out if the tensor maths (I kid you not) was right.
    Where do yogic flyers sit on Brexit?
    https://youtu.be/438UKM1Av1g
    Well it does say they will strengthen the sovereignty of the UK and at the same time create a real union of the European nations. I think perhaps they were slightly unrealistic? Crazy I know.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
    Is segue the right word for that? I'm not sure there's a word for 'staggered belligerently' mind you. Surprising given its obvious relevance pretty much every Friday night.

    Is there any degree of safety in comments about c14 history anyway? I thought Hollywood had bought it and were rewriting it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Floater said:

    Today we have people vote marches, GE marches, pro Brexit marches, France in protest chaos and Trump not paying state employeees

    Add into that Italy and Poland have entered an alliance to change the EU and Italy are advising the French yellow vest protestors

    China GDP heading for 2% and the Chinese rejecting home built jaguar land rovers as they want British built on them. China and the far east moving over to android smart phones and apple in a nose dive that looks irrecoverable

    We have a HOC that is a disaster and temperatures rising on both sides, each not taking any prisoners

    How did we arrive at this state of chaos.

    For me the HOC should accept TM deal for all its faults and move on. However I suspect next week the remainers, well led by Dominic Grieve, to use all kinds of obscure parliamentary procedures to tilt the UK to remain

    If they are successful I fear for the forceable future, as leavers will not just go away

    My hope is we at least leave on something the HOC can agree on and then it will be perfectly reasonable for remainers to commence a rejoin campaign

    If we vote to Remain, Italy and Poland will find they just got 17.4m new helpers in their efforts to destabilise the EU.....
    Can you imagine the mep's we will send......
    Much more pro-EU than our current contingent. Have you seen the kind of things Gerard Batten says in the European Parliament?
    Why on earth would anyone want to see that?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Doethur, aye, but that was the fault of an overmighty European institution.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265


    But if it doesn't work (as with for example live animal exports) it benefits no animals at all. Whereas at least if we had control of it ourselves as Nick says, we could impose that ban and benefit the animals in our country if no other.

    Yes, you're right. In my day job I'm strictly neutral about Brexit as well as politics, but I do think that if we're going to have Brexit it needs to have a degree of genuine independence in it, so we can do things like that. If we find that we've agreed to be in a sort of outer orbit, where we promise not to do our own thing but also can't influence what the others do, it seems to me to be a bit pointless, unless one takes the view that it's a process rather than a single act, and we can in time negotiate greater separation.
    Which is why permanent customs union membership is so awful. But Labour seem to be all for it.
    Well, in my political life I'm a Remainer, and think we should stay as close to membership as possible without actually spitting in the eye of the Leave voters. My preferred method would be a Labour government negotiating a deal with the customs union that the EU would prefer and getting it approved by referendum, or rejected in favour of remaining full members. But if I was a Leaver I'd want something more detached.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.

    That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!

    Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to grow up with absent / distant parents who chose career over care, so forgive me if I'm old fashioned and proud about it when I say that I believe being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.
    It is depressing that Britain is the only country in Europe that does not provide any kind of financial support to stay at home parents. Clearly forcing women or men with caring responsibilities out of the workforce is unacceptable, but providing no support to those who want to live in a more traditional way seems very unfair.
    There is child benefit in the UK
    Not if you are paid more than the government limit.
    Which is £50,000 a year or more, although you can pay a tax charge instead.

    If one partner is paid that much they will be in the top 10% of earners and should be able to support the other partner staying at home anyway
    That income won't even buy you a property in London let alone pay for a child and a non-working partner.
    Most of the country does not live in London and even most Londoners move out to the Home Counties if they want to buy a family property.

    Of course the cut off only starts at £50k most working Londoners affected will be earning well above that anyway, including many on 6 figures
    I don't mean to be rude. But I do sometimes wonder what world you are living in.
    The average salary for a male working in the City of London is over £100,000 ie about double the child benefit cap.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1532521/Average-City-salary-for-a-man-breaks-100000.html

    In most of the rest of the country, certainly the North, the Midlands and Wales, a household income of £50,000 plus would easily put you in the top 10% of earners and living costs would be much lower there too
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    This is the problem in a nutshell: that such a significant decision should be turned into a battle of wills between Mrs May and Parliament which Mrs May "must" win. Why? She can't even persuade her own government. If she can't persuade Parliament she has failed at her task.

    She certainly shouldn't be allowed repeatedly to bully Parliament. That's hardly democratic or Parliamentary.

    One of the leavers' criticisms of the EU was that they made people keep on voting to get the "right" decision. Why then should it be OK for May to do the same thing to Parliament?

    I agree with you to some extent and certainly the analogy with EU repeat questions is a good one to some extent.

    But the problem is not that May keeps asking a question it is that Parliament will not give an answer. When the people say no in an EU referendum they are giving the only answer they can give if they do not like the proposal. Parliament has a whole range of proposals which cover all eventualities but it refuses to give an answer. Just saying no to something when you have no power to put another option on the table is reasonable. Just saying no to every option but still expecting a solution is not.

    So, if May truly believes that she must enact Brexit in some form her choices are very limited. In fact she has no other option. She must keep bringing back this deal at every opportunity until 29th March when the decision will be made for her - and for Parliament.
    I don't think a PM should be allowed to bully Parliament, no matter what he or she "truly believes".

    Brexit - what it is and how to achieve it - should be about more than marking Mrs May's homework. It has been turned into May's personal obsession - it's all about Mrs May's deal and will Mrs May win the vote etc. I'm sorry but I don't give a toss about her. If she can't get her own government and party behind her she should be off.

    And the reason Parliament hasn't - so far - given an answer is because May has stopped them voting. We could have had an answer on her deal in mid December. She ran away from this, has wasted time and is trying to use the even less time available to bully MPs into accepting something sub-optimal so she can get a gold sticker for her achievement.

    Bollocks to that, frankly.

    You and I don't always agree but on May's general authoritarianism and utter uselessness, I think we are as one.
    I agree May shouldn’t be allowed to bully Parliament but Parliament doesn’t seem capable of agreeing on any form of Brexit or indeed anything Brexit related. It’s not just May.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Mr. Doethur, aye, but that was the fault of an overmighty European institution.

    The House of York was an overmighty European institution?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
    Is segue the right word for that? I'm not sure there's a word for 'staggered belligerently' mind you. Surprising given its obvious relevance pretty much every Friday night.

    Is there any degree of safety in comments about c14 history anyway? I thought Hollywood had bought it and were rewriting it.
    Even Hollywood surely won't try to rewrite Crecy and Poitiers as French wins.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    edited January 2019
    Mr. Doethur, ha, sorry, bit sleepy (I've been mildly off-colour today).

    Well, he was called Richard of Bordeaux, and spoke French before he spoke English.

    [I was, of course, thinking of the 16th century and religious wars, in error].

    Edited extra bit: no, but they might rewrite them as Scottish triumphs.

    Or American ones.

    Americans wearing woad, perhaps.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Of course the cut off only starts at £50k most working Londoners affected will be earning well above that anyway, including many on 6 figures

    I don't mean to be rude. But I do sometimes wonder what world you are living in.
    The average salary for a male working in the City of London is over £100,000 ie about double the child benefit cap.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1532521/Average-City-salary-for-a-man-breaks-100000.html

    In most of the rest of the country, certainly the North, the Midlands and Wales, a household income of £50,000 plus would easily put you in the top 10% of earners and living costs would be much lower there too
    Quick check: do you know the "City of London" and the "city of London" and the "region of London" are three entirely different entries with enormously different populations and salaries?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited January 2019

    Mr. Doethur, ha, sorry, bit sleepy (I've been mildly off-colour today).

    Well, he was called Richard of Bordeaux, and spoke French before he spoke English.

    [I was, of course, thinking of the 16th century and religious wars, in error].

    So you meant the 1400s, not the 14th century?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    I see Rory Stewart has still been out and about a lot pushing the deal. If by some miracle it gets approved (clearly not on Tuesday even as a miracle, it'll be a miracle to be lost by less than 100) he'd surely deserve some kind of promotion? Given we have a long and proud history of incompetent ministers it is not as though any qualities he may or may not hold there would preclude him having earned consideration in the very unlikely scenario of a deal.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Mr. Doethur, ha, sorry, bit sleepy (I've been mildly off-colour today).

    Well, he was called Richard of Bordeaux, and spoke French before he spoke English.

    [I was, of course, thinking of the 16th century and religious wars, in error].

    Edited extra bit: no, but they might rewrite them as Scottish triumphs.

    Or American ones.

    Americans wearing woad, perhaps.

    As an historian, I would feel pretty blue about such rewrites...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Doethur, we did say after the 14th century. Which is the 15th century, which is the 1400s. I sleepily was thinking of the 1500s and the religious mischief that ensued.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    MJW said:

    I think the issue with Brexit, and why the wound really won't heal for a very long time is that it's largely a proxy for greater problems we're utterly divided as to the solution to, namely how we cope in a world where there are fewer certainties and less control. For some, it is to 'take back control' within the nation state - the thing that unites anti-immigrant nationalists, free marketeer Brexit supporters and Lexiteers is their faith in withdrawing from the international status quo to pursue their preferred path. For others, the only way to survive and thrive is to thrust ourselves outward and reform and renew supranational institutions that, although flawed, are a bulwark against disasters, are generally engines of prosperity and the only way of tackling issues that can't be tackled by one country.

    I think the divide is a values based one, so expect a degree of polarisation similar to the US culture war. It is likely to persist for the forseable, and to dominate politics. The WA is the beginning of this battle, not its end.

    At its heart Brexit and other forms of Populist Nationalism in the world are controversies over how a nation conceives itself. There are 3 overlapping circles in the venn diagram:

    1) Those of national ethnicity
    2) Those of non-national ethnicity, but subscribing to national culture and values, however defined.
    3) Those who have legal permanent residency or citizenship, but are not of national ethnic group and who have fundamentally diferrent values, often with roots in other cultures.

    Increasngly these three circles are no longer congruent in Britain, but also in France, USA, Australia, Scandanavia and indeed a number of other countries across the world. Whether we resolve those incongruencies by excluding others or by becoming more inclusive in assimilation is the fundamental divide between Leavers and Remainers, and also between similar divisions in other countries.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
    Is segue the right word for that? I'm not sure there's a word for 'staggered belligerently' mind you. Surprising given its obvious relevance pretty much every Friday night.

    Is there any degree of safety in comments about c14 history anyway? I thought Hollywood had bought it and were rewriting it.
    Even Hollywood surely won't try to rewrite Crecy and Poitiers as French wins.
    Of course not, and it'd be daft of us to presume that anyone other than the antecedents of great American figures featured, commanded, and saved the day in all of these affairs.

    As Henry Ford's ancestor once said - you can have a monument in any shape you like as long as it's a pyramid.

    (PS Sorry, north american persons. i actually rather approve)
    (PPS Please don't steal any more of our continents)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Of course the cut off only starts at £50k most working Londoners affected will be earning well above that anyway, including many on 6 figures

    I don't mean to be rude. But I do sometimes wonder what world you are living in.
    The average salary for a male working in the City of London is over £100,000 ie about double the child benefit cap.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1532521/Average-City-salary-for-a-man-breaks-100000.html

    In most of the rest of the country, certainly the North, the Midlands and Wales, a household income of £50,000 plus would easily put you in the top 10% of earners and living costs would be much lower there too
    Quick check: do you know the "City of London" and the "city of London" and the "region of London" are three entirely different entries with enormously different populations and salaries?
    I do know that London has a significantly higher average income than the rest of the country principally because of workers in the City of London and other high earning areas.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    kle4 said:

    I see Rory Stewart has still been out and about a lot pushing the deal. If by some miracle it gets approved (clearly not on Tuesday even as a miracle, it'll be a miracle to be lost by less than 100) he'd surely deserve some kind of promotion? Given we have a long and proud history of incompetent ministers it is not as though any qualities he may or may not hold there would preclude him having earned consideration in the very unlikely scenario of a deal.

    He's rather a good politician.

    His background is enormously interesting, and his arrival as an MP was (in some quarters) greeted with a certain degree of expectation. He didn't burst onto the scene though, and stayed rather quiet. His prison promise is quite interesting though.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    Fantastic article @AlastairMeeks. I wonder if there is a betting opportunity in comparing the votes local vote in the constituency
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Of course the cut off only starts at £50k most working Londoners affected will be earning well above that anyway, including many on 6 figures

    I don't mean to be rude. But I do sometimes wonder what world you are living in.
    The average salary for a male working in the City of London is over £100,000 ie about double the child benefit cap.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1532521/Average-City-salary-for-a-man-breaks-100000.html

    In most of the rest of the country, certainly the North, the Midlands and Wales, a household income of £50,000 plus would easily put you in the top 10% of earners and living costs would be much lower there too
    Quick check: do you know the "City of London" and the "city of London" and the "region of London" are three entirely different entries with enormously different populations and salaries?
    I do know that London has a significantly higher average income than the rest of the country principally because of workers in the City of London and other high earning areas.

    Oh, OK.

    The ONS does the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings. The table for earnings by region is AHSE 25: "Earnings and hours worked, UK region by public and private sector". The latest release is 25 October 2018. If you open up the spreadsheet (you can find it here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/datasets/regionbypublicandprivatesectorashetable25 ) and look at the "All" tab, (table 25.7a) it gives you the numbers for the region of London

    * the London region mean salary is 44,714 (public sector 37,168, private sector 48,924).
    * the London region median salary is 32,976 (public sector 34,288, private sector 32,637)

    So if you were referring to the region of London, then no, most people in employment don't earn over £50K.

    I'll see if I can dig out the figures for the Square Mile.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    Foxy said:



    I think the divide is a values based one, so expect a degree of polarisation similar to the US culture war. It is likely to persist for the forseable, and to dominate politics. The WA is the beginning of this battle, not its end.

    At its heart Brexit and other forms of Populist Nationalism in the world are controversies over how a nation conceives itself. There are 3 overlapping circles in the venn diagram:

    1) Those of national ethnicity
    2) Those of non-national ethnicity, but subscribing to national culture and values, however defined.
    3) Those who have legal permanent residency or citizenship, but are not of national ethnic group and who have fundamentally diferrent values, often with roots in other cultures.

    Increasngly these three circles are no longer congruent in Britain, but also in France, USA, Australia, Scandanavia and indeed a number of other countries across the world. Whether we resolve those incongruencies by excluding others or by becoming more inclusive in assimilation is the fundamental divide between Leavers and Remainers, and also between similar divisions in other countries.

    Good analysis. The division does evolve over time. If an influx of type 3 is moderate and over a period of years, people tend to adjust to it - I think very few people now feel that Britain should be entirely white, as some folk did in the 60s after significant West Indian immigration, and that's partly because West Indians turned out to be mostly type 2, fitting into mostly working class life without much friction.

    But with travel (legal and illegal) now much easier and English pervasive across the globe, it is a pretty rational career choice for an enterprising person in an underdeveloped country to try to come to the USA or Britain, without thinking that this necessarily means they have to change their culture. So the issue is likely to continue indefinitely.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Sean_F said:

    In my view, the best argument for leaving is that most EU politicians are committed to building a new European nation, and that is anathema to most British people. However, you don't believe that to be so.

    The perverse thing is that what makes people perceive it as “a new European nation” is more its relationship with other states than any inherent characteristics of the EU itself. You see this in Farage’s phraseology about being a “proper” country, the fetishisation of having “our own trade deals”, and the general New World envy of countries with very different modern histories.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    edited January 2019
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Of course the cut off only starts at £50k most working Londoners affected will be earning well above that anyway, including many on 6 figures

    I don't mean to be rude. But I do sometimes wonder what world you are living in.
    The average salary for a male working in the City of London is over £100,000 ie about double the child benefit cap.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1532521/Average-City-salary-for-a-man-breaks-100000.html

    In most of the rest of the country, certainly the North, the Midlands and Wales, a household income of £50,000 plus would easily put you in the top 10% of earners and living costs would be much lower there too
    Quick check: do you know the "City of London" and the "city of London" and the "region of London" are three entirely different entries with enormously different populations and salaries?
    I do know that London has a significantly higher average income than the rest of the country principally because of workers in the City of London and other high earning areas.

    Oh, OK.

    The ONS does the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings. The table for earnings by region is AHSE 25: "Earnings and hours worked, UK region by public and private sector". The latest release is 25 October 2018. If you open up the spreadsheet (you can find it here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/datasets/regionbypublicandprivatesectorashetable25 ) and look at the "All" tab, (table 25.7a) it gives you the numbers for the region of London

    * the London region mean salary is 44,714 (public sector 37,168, private sector 48,924).
    * the London region median salary is 32,976 (public sector 34,288, private sector 32,637)

    So if you were referring to the region of London, then no, most people in employment don't earn over £50K.

    I'll see if I can dig out the figures for the Square Mile.
    As opposed to the UK mean salary of just £29,832 ie £15,000 less than the London mean salary and the UK median salary of £24,006 ie still over £8,000 less than the London median salary.

    So yes my original point stands absolutely correct, the child benefits cut off of £50,000 a year still sees even workers on the London median or mean salary receive child benefits, let alone those on the median or mean salary in the UK.

    I also never said the London average salary was over £50k, I said the London average salary was significantly higher than the rest of the country thanks to higher paying areas like the City of London, a point which also stands on the ONS figures you linked to
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236
    @Hyfud

    To add some further detail, if we limit ourselves to male full-time employees, the region of London numbers look like this:

    * the London region mean salary is 59,555 (public sector 46,942, private sector 63,917).
    * the London region median salary is 42,213 (public sector 43,335, private sector 42,197)

    So if you were referring to the mean male full-time salary, then you had a point. But that doesn't cover "most": for that you need the median (or the mode!), and the median doesn't bear you out.

    Bear in mind that there are a shit-ton of poor people, women and part-time workers in London, and the small number of high-worth individuals don't pull the numbers up past £50K
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236
    edited January 2019
    HYUFD said:

    As opposed to the UK mean salary of just £29.832 ie £15,000 less than the London mean salary and the UK median salary of £24,006 ie still over £8,000 less than the London median salary.

    So yes my original point stands absolutely correct, the child benefits cut off of £50,000 still sees even workers on the London median or mean salary receive child benefits, let alone those on the median or mean salary in the UK.

    I also never said the London average salary was over £50k, I said the London average salary was significantly higher than the rest of the country thanks to higher paying areas like the City of London, a point which also stands on the ONS figures you linked to

    The bit I was referring to was your statement that "Of course the cut off only starts at £50k most working Londoners affected will be earning well above that anyway".

    Edit: I didn't look at your other figures.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Foxy said:

    I think the divide is a values based one, so expect a degree of polarisation similar to the US culture war. It is likely to persist for the forseable, and to dominate politics. The WA is the beginning of this battle, not its end.

    At its heart Brexit and other forms of Populist Nationalism in the world are controversies over how a nation conceives itself. There are 3 overlapping circles in the venn diagram:

    1) Those of national ethnicity
    2) Those of non-national ethnicity, but subscribing to national culture and values, however defined.
    3) Those who have legal permanent residency or citizenship, but are not of national ethnic group and who have fundamentally diferrent values, often with roots in other cultures.

    Increasngly these three circles are no longer congruent in Britain, but also in France, USA, Australia, Scandanavia and indeed a number of other countries across the world. Whether we resolve those incongruencies by excluding others or by becoming more inclusive in assimilation is the fundamental divide between Leavers and Remainers, and also between similar divisions in other countries.

    The immigration problem isn't as intractable as is often presented. It merely requires sensible policy to resolve it.

    Broadly speaking, the population divides in three over immigration. Most of us sit in the centre, and are either fairly liberal or persuadable to be so. If immigration is demonstrated to be good for the country (and I mean patiently and politely explained to be so, and not couched as "this is bloody obvious, and if you can't see that you must be a racist dimwit,") and if concrete measures are taken to provide enough places for an expanding population to live, then people can prove amenable to large influxes of students and professionals. What I believe is that people simply wish to see that proper control is being exercised. There is no need to grant permanent residency to seasonal agricultural workers. There is no need to grant entry at all to unskilled casual workers with no job to go to. This is not an unreasonable position to adopt.

    Unfortunately, we also have to contend with the raise the drawbridge hard Right and the open borders hard Left, who ruin everything, picking constant fights with each other and rubbing large chunks of the population up the wrong way in the process. One side wants to shut the door on immigration regardless of the consequences, the other wants to fling the door open to the whole world regardless of the consequences, and neither is amenable to compromise. They're both active, very loud, and one of them has already captured the Labour Party. The rest of us are stuck in the middle.

    Immigration was not a significant issue in British politics back in the Nineties: all of this has only really blown up in the last fifteen years. Solve immigration, sideline the hard Left and hard Right extremists, and much of the problem will simply go away.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.

    That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!

    Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to grow up with absent / distant parents who chose career over care, so forgive me if I'm old fashioned and proud about it when I say that I believe being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.
    Modern Mothers, despite working more, spend just as much time with their children as they did in the past.

    Fathers also spend more time with their children than they did in the past despite working no less.

    Modern children get more parental time than they did in the mythical past with stay at home mums.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    The immigration problem isn't as intractable as is often presented. It merely requires sensible policy to resolve it.

    Caveat: assuming that the end point of Brexit also involves the end of the freedom of movement, which is one of the points that I cut when I had to edit my comment. Clearly if we stay in the EU or move to a close association on broadly EEA terms then the influx of hand car washers continues unabated.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911
    Alistair said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.

    That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!

    Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to grow up with absent / distant parents who chose career over care, so forgive me if I'm old fashioned and proud about it when I say that I believe being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.
    Modern Mothers, despite working more, spend just as much time with their children as they did in the past.

    Fathers also spend more time with their children than they did in the past despite working no less.

    Modern children get more parental time than they did in the mythical past with stay at home mums.
    I can only speak from my personal experience when I give my opinion. That is all I have to say on the matter.
  • ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
    Is segue the right word for that? I'm not sure there's a word for 'staggered belligerently' mind you. Surprising given its obvious relevance pretty much every Friday night.

    Is there any degree of safety in comments about c14 history anyway? I thought Hollywood had bought it and were rewriting it.
    Even Hollywood surely won't try to rewrite Crecy and Poitiers as French wins.
    The first Battle of Poitiers was a French win:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Alistair said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.

    That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!

    Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to grow up with absent / distant parents who chose career over care, so forgive me if I'm old fashioned and proud about it when I say that I believe being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.
    Modern Mothers, despite working more, spend just as much time with their children as they did in the past.

    Fathers also spend more time with their children than they did in the past despite working no less.

    Modern children get more parental time than they did in the mythical past with stay at home mums.
    Is it the case that some children get a lot less (those whose mothers would have stayed at home) while many more get some more (due to shorter working hours)?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
    Is segue the right word for that? I'm not sure there's a word for 'staggered belligerently' mind you. Surprising given its obvious relevance pretty much every Friday night.

    Is there any degree of safety in comments about c14 history anyway? I thought Hollywood had bought it and were rewriting it.
    Even Hollywood surely won't try to rewrite Crecy and Poitiers as French wins.
    The first Battle of Poitiers was a French win:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
    The French military reputation has suffered quite a lot of unwarranted flak, whereas the British military reputation has somehow garnered quite undeserved praise. The Italians are seen as military incompetents and yet they've totally outclassed the British when engaged.

    Top Trumps in the soldier stakes? Maybe Finland. (I'd also venture Nepal and Afghanistan)

    Bottom trump would seemingly be Belgium, but that's just their politicians.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
    Is segue the right word for that? I'm not sure there's a word for 'staggered belligerently' mind you. Surprising given its obvious relevance pretty much every Friday night.

    Is there any degree of safety in comments about c14 history anyway? I thought Hollywood had bought it and were rewriting it.
    Even Hollywood surely won't try to rewrite Crecy and Poitiers as French wins.
    The first Battle of Poitiers was a French win:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
    That didn't take place in the Hundred Years' War!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited January 2019
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
    Is segue the right word for that? I'm not sure there's a word for 'staggered belligerently' mind you. Surprising given its obvious relevance pretty much every Friday night.

    Is there any degree of safety in comments about c14 history anyway? I thought Hollywood had bought it and were rewriting it.
    Even Hollywood surely won't try to rewrite Crecy and Poitiers as French wins.
    The first Battle of Poitiers was a French win:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
    The French military reputation has suffered quite a lot of unwarranted flak, whereas the British military reputation has somehow garnered quite undeserved praise. The Italians are seen as military incompetents and yet they've totally outclassed the British when engaged.

    Top Trumps in the soldier stakes? Maybe Finland. (I'd also venture Nepal and Afghanistan)

    Bottom trump would seemingly be Belgium, but that's just their politicians.

    When was the last time France, on its own, had a major military victory? Do we have to go right the way back to Jena? Or do we include the Algerian and Roman campaigns?

    And since then we've had the Crimea (distinctly mixed success) the Franco Prussian War, the First World War (would have lost had they been fighting alone and without the Belgians would probably have been conquered rapidly) the Second World War (of which the less said the better) and the Algerian war.

    It's not exactly a litany of dazzling successes for a country that effortlessly bestrode Europe for three and a half centuries.

    I think herein lies the secret of their reputation.

    Edit - incidentally I think General Wavell might dispute your characterisation of Italian forces. As would the Greeks. Or the Abyssinians (at the first attempt).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.

    That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!

    Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to grow up with absent / distant parents who chose career over care, so forgive me if I'm old fashioned and proud about it when I say that I believe being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.
    Modern Mothers, despite working more, spend just as much time with their children as they did in the past.

    Fathers also spend more time with their children than they did in the past despite working no less.

    Modern children get more parental time than they did in the mythical past with stay at home mums.
    Is it the case that some children get a lot less (those whose mothers would have stayed at home) while many more get some more (due to shorter working hours)?
    Bear in mind there was only a relatively short time when women stayed at home. Until well into the Victorian period mothers had to go out to work to earn money. The idea of the housewife is comparatively recent.

    In fact, in one factory in Birmingham, now part of the Black Country museum, there are hooks hanging from the ceiling. On being asked what they were, I was told that they were hooks newborn babies in swaddling clothes could be hung on when their mothers returned to work - in some cases, the day they had given birth.
  • I would take it up one more level than a tactical vote. I would say that leavers trust the nation state and the institutions of that state to provide for their future in the best way. Remainers have a distrust of the nation state and its institutions and so want external checks and balances to provide the best future for them. Cyclefree used to write good articles on this.

    Different things motivate different people, of course, but I think you make a very fair point here. I'm a Remainer who distrusts the concept of the nation state being the ultimate political authority (though I don't distrust the actual concept of the nation state). Where some Leavers misunderstand Remainers of my particular stripe is that they assume we want to see the EU become a nation state... No, if we were in an EU that was a nation state then I'd want to see something else above it to provide external checks and balances.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
    Is segue the right word for that? I'm not sure there's a word for 'staggered belligerently' mind you. Surprising given its obvious relevance pretty much every Friday night.

    Is there any degree of safety in comments about c14 history anyway? I thought Hollywood had bought it and were rewriting it.
    Even Hollywood surely won't try to rewrite Crecy and Poitiers as French wins.
    The first Battle of Poitiers was a French win:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
    The French military reputation has suffered quite a lot of unwarranted flak, whereas the British military reputation has somehow garnered quite undeserved praise. The Italians are seen as military incompetents and yet they've totally outclassed the British when engaged.

    Top Trumps in the soldier stakes? Maybe Finland. (I'd also venture Nepal and Afghanistan)

    Bottom trump would seemingly be Belgium, but that's just their politicians.

    When was the last time France, on its own, had a major military victory? Do we have to go right the way back to Jena? Or do we include the Algerian and Roman campaigns?

    And since then we've had the Crimea (distinctly mixed success) the Franco Prussian War, the First World War (would have lost had they been fighting alone and without the Belgians would probably have been conquered rapidly) the Second World War (of which the less said the better) and the Algerian war.

    It's not exactly a litany of dazzling successes for a country that effortlessly bestrode Europe for three and a half centuries.

    I think herein lies the secret of their reputation.
    They had the best fighting force in the world (Foreign Legion), and they broke it in VietNam. Historically they've been simply the best in terms of land combat.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    It does feel odd this evening, doesn't it? - 3 days to what may be a decisive vote, but nothing any of us can do about it and, surprisingly, almost no polling, so we're pensively debating the history of the French army.
  • As a leave voting renter I'd see a 30% fall in house prices as a price worth paying for Brexit in much the same way as I'd see eating chocolate icing as a price worth paying for eating cake.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
    Is segue the right word for that? I'm not sure there's a word for 'staggered belligerently' mind you. Surprising given its obvious relevance pretty much every Friday night.

    Is there any degree of safety in comments about c14 history anyway? I thought Hollywood had bought it and were rewriting it.
    Even Hollywood surely won't try to rewrite Crecy and Poitiers as French wins.
    The first Battle of Poitiers was a French win:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
    The French military reputation has suffered quite a lot of unwarranted flak, whereas the British military reputation has somehow garnered quite undeserved praise. The Italians are seen as military incompetents and yet they've totally outclassed the British when engaged.

    Top Trumps in the soldier stakes? Maybe Finland. (I'd also venture Nepal and Afghanistan)

    Bottom trump would seemingly be Belgium, but that's just their politicians.

    When was the last time France, on its own, had a major military victory? Do we have to go right the way back to Jena? Or do we include the Algerian and Roman campaigns?

    And since then we've had the Crimea (distinctly mixed success) the Franco Prussian War, the First World War (would have lost had they been fighting alone and without the Belgians would probably have been conquered rapidly) the Second World War (of which the less said the better) and the Algerian war.

    It's not exactly a litany of dazzling successes for a country that effortlessly bestrode Europe for three and a half centuries.

    I think herein lies the secret of their reputation.

    Edit - incidentally I think General Wavell might dispute your characterisation of Italian forces. As would the Greeks. Or the Abyssinians (at the first attempt).
    You'd be quite right to point out that the Italians fared poorly against British forces generally in WW2. Nonetheless they did do very well early in the war.

    In WW1 the Austrians imagined that they would blow away Italy at a stroke, and it turned out to be rather the opposite.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    It does feel odd this evening, doesn't it? - 3 days to what may be a decisive vote, but nothing any of us can do about it and, surprisingly, almost no polling, so we're pensively debating the history of the French army.

    Well, while post Tuesday things are still very unclear what actually seems very likely to happen on Tuesday itself has been done to death. Even for the internet what more is there to say?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,841

    It does feel odd this evening, doesn't it? - 3 days to what may be a decisive vote, but nothing any of us can do about it and, surprisingly, almost no polling, so we're pensively debating the history of the French army.

    It has all been said. Many times over. And virtually no-one has changed their position. What will be will be. May as well keep the powder dry for Tuesday I guess.
    When the history is written, the delay in the MV will go down as an unconscionably cynical piece of time-wasting. It may have swung a handful of votes, at the cost of more than a quarter of the remaining time available.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    It does feel odd this evening, doesn't it? - 3 days to what may be a decisive vote, but nothing any of us can do about it and, surprisingly, almost no polling, so we're pensively debating the history of the French army.

    Chin up eh?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Austerlitz?

    Modern stuff isn't my area, though.

    And the Roman era isn't French. It isn't even Francian.
  • Mathematician Sir Michael Atiyah dies aged 89

    One of the world's foremost mathematicians, Prof Sir Michael Atiyah, has died at the age of 89.

    Sir Michael, who worked at Cambridge University before he retired, made outstanding contributions to geometry and topology.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46850763
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Austerlitz?

    Modern stuff isn't my area, though.

    And the Roman era isn't French. It isn't even Francian.

    Austerlitz was before Jena.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    Mathematician Sir Michael Atiyah dies aged 89

    One of the world's foremost mathematicians, Prof Sir Michael Atiyah, has died at the age of 89.

    Sir Michael, who worked at Cambridge University before he retired, made outstanding contributions to geometry and topology.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46850763

    In what way was he 'One of the world's foremost mathematicians'?

    What were his contributions to geometry and topology?

    If I didn't know better I might imagine you'd just posted someone else's view.
  • ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
    Is segue the right word for that? I'm not sure there's a word for 'staggered belligerently' mind you. Surprising given its obvious relevance pretty much every Friday night.

    Is there any degree of safety in comments about c14 history anyway? I thought Hollywood had bought it and were rewriting it.
    Even Hollywood surely won't try to rewrite Crecy and Poitiers as French wins.
    The first Battle of Poitiers was a French win:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
    The French military reputation has suffered quite a lot of unwarranted flak, whereas the British military reputation has somehow garnered quite undeserved praise. The Italians are seen as military incompetents and yet they've totally outclassed the British when engaged.

    Top Trumps in the soldier stakes? Maybe Finland. (I'd also venture Nepal and Afghanistan)

    Bottom trump would seemingly be Belgium, but that's just their politicians.

    When was the last time France, on its own, had a major military victory? Do we have to go right the way back to Jena? Or do we include the Algerian and Roman campaigns?
    Solferino, 1859?
  • Omnium said:

    Mathematician Sir Michael Atiyah dies aged 89

    One of the world's foremost mathematicians, Prof Sir Michael Atiyah, has died at the age of 89.

    Sir Michael, who worked at Cambridge University before he retired, made outstanding contributions to geometry and topology.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46850763

    In what way was he 'One of the world's foremost mathematicians'?

    What were his contributions to geometry and topology?

    If I didn't know better I might imagine you'd just posted someone else's view.
    I simply posted a quote from BBC news website. Other opinions are available.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
    Is segue the right word for that? I'm not sure there's a word for 'staggered belligerently' mind you. Surprising given its obvious relevance pretty much every Friday night.

    Is there any degree of safety in comments about c14 history anyway? I thought Hollywood had bought it and were rewriting it.
    Even Hollywood surely won't try to rewrite Crecy and Poitiers as French wins.
    The first Battle of Poitiers was a French win:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
    That didn't take place in the Hundred Years' War!
    I said the FIRST Battle of Poitiers!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.

    That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!

    Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to grow up with absent / distant parents who chose career over care, so forgive me if I'm old fashioned and proud about it when I say that I believe being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.
    Modern Mothers, despite working more, spend just as much time with their children as they did in the past.

    Fathers also spend more time with their children than they did in the past despite working no less.

    Modern children get more parental time than they did in the mythical past with stay at home mums.
    Is it the case that some children get a lot less (those whose mothers would have stayed at home) while many more get some more (due to shorter working hours)?
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jomf.12305

    Have at it. I've only skimmed the paper. It's actually stronger than I stated, modern women spend more time with their children than the previous generation (*).

    (*) statement not true for France.
  • The Yanks only won the Revolutionary War due to French help:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Yorktown
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Borough, if it can be tranquil after the 14th century, it can certainly be tranquil in the future.

    Take a few decades, mind.

    The fourteenth century segued into the fifteenth century, with thirty-five years of civil war.
    Is segue the right word for that? I'm not sure there's a word for 'staggered belligerently' mind you. Surprising given its obvious relevance pretty much every Friday night.

    Is there any degree of safety in comments about c14 history anyway? I thought Hollywood had bought it and were rewriting it.
    Even Hollywood surely won't try to rewrite Crecy and Poitiers as French wins.
    The first Battle of Poitiers was a French win:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
    The French military reputation has suffered quite a lot of unwarranted flak, whereas the British military reputation has somehow garnered quite undeserved praise. The Italians are seen as military incompetents and yet they've totally outclassed the British when engaged.

    Top Trumps in the soldier stakes? Maybe Finland. (I'd also venture Nepal and Afghanistan)

    Bottom trump would seemingly be Belgium, but that's just their politicians.

    When was the last time France, on its own, had a major military victory? Do we have to go right the way back to Jena? Or do we include the Algerian and Roman campaigns?
    Solferino, 1859?
    There were substantial victories in IndoChina. In the context of the overall campaign it'd be hard to call them as such though.

    I don't know the history of North Africa, but there would have been 'wins' there too.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949

    As a leave voting renter I'd see a 30% fall in house prices as a price worth paying for Brexit in much the same way as I'd see eating chocolate icing as a price worth paying for eating cake.

    The irony of warning about house price falls is that the people who like them the most are young renters, who strongly skew Remain. Every cloud has a silver lining, eh?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    The Yanks only won the Revolutionary War due to French help:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Yorktown

    Yes, and given the mind-bending incompetence of the traitor Washington, it's as well for the Yanks they had such help.

    But that was also before Jena.

    At Solferino they were supported by the Sardinians - or to be more precise, were fighting in support of the Sardinians.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.

    That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!

    Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to grow up with absent / distant parents who chose career over care, so forgive me if I'm old fashioned and proud about it when I say that I believe being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.
    Modern Mothers, despite working more, spend just as much time with their children as they did in the past.

    Fathers also spend more time with their children than they did in the past despite working no less.

    Modern children get more parental time than they did in the mythical past with stay at home mums.
    Is it the case that some children get a lot less (those whose mothers would have stayed at home) while many more get some more (due to shorter working hours)?
    Bear in mind there was only a relatively short time when women stayed at home. Until well into the Victorian period mothers had to go out to work to earn money. The idea of the housewife is comparatively recent.

    In fact, in one factory in Birmingham, now part of the Black Country museum, there are hooks hanging from the ceiling. On being asked what they were, I was told that they were hooks newborn babies in swaddling clothes could be hung on when their mothers returned to work - in some cases, the day they had given birth.
    Prior to the invention of the factory system in the industrial revolution, most women (and indeed men) worked from home, so childcare wasn't an issue. Indeed the children were expected to contribute work too. Such homeworking persisted well into the industrial period, and indeed has never completely gone away.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725

    Mathematician Sir Michael Atiyah dies aged 89

    One of the world's foremost mathematicians, Prof Sir Michael Atiyah, has died at the age of 89.

    Sir Michael, who worked at Cambridge University before he retired, made outstanding contributions to geometry and topology.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46850763

    89 is the 24th prime following 83 and preceding 97.a Chen prime.a Pythagorean prime.

    What a brilliant age for a Mathematician to die.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited January 2019
    When it comes to military honour, we could be less Eurocentric and recognise the Ethiopians. Being the only indigenous African polity to successfully resist colonisation has to count for something.

    NB I know Mussolini took his revenge 46 years later.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    edited January 2019

    Mathematician Sir Michael Atiyah dies aged 89

    One of the world's foremost mathematicians, Prof Sir Michael Atiyah, has died at the age of 89.

    Sir Michael, who worked at Cambridge University before he retired, made outstanding contributions to geometry and topology.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46850763

    89 is the 24th prime following 83 and preceding 97.a Chen prime.a Pythagorean prime.

    What a brilliant age for a Mathematician to die.
    The smallest Sophie Germain Prime to start a Cunningham chain of the first kind of six terms, {89, 179, 359, 719, 1439, 2879}.an Eisenstein prime with no imaginary part and real part of the form 3n − 1.

    Well chosen Sir Michael
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    It does feel odd this evening, doesn't it? - 3 days to what may be a decisive vote, but nothing any of us can do about it and, surprisingly, almost no polling, so we're pensively debating the history of the French army.

    Sit back and watch the Colts at the Chiefs......
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2019

    It does feel odd this evening, doesn't it? - 3 days to what may be a decisive vote, but nothing any of us can do about it and, surprisingly, almost no polling, so we're pensively debating the history of the French army.

    Sit back and watch the Colts at the Chiefs......
    Hand egg in the snow....what could possibly go wrong.

    Patrick Mahomes really is some player.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    Mathematician Sir Michael Atiyah dies aged 89

    One of the world's foremost mathematicians, Prof Sir Michael Atiyah, has died at the age of 89.

    Sir Michael, who worked at Cambridge University before he retired, made outstanding contributions to geometry and topology.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46850763

    89 is the 24th prime following 83 and preceding 97.a Chen prime.a Pythagorean prime.

    What a brilliant age for a Mathematician to die.
    The smallest Sophie Germain Prime to start a Cunningham chain of the first kind of six terms, {89, 179, 359, 719, 1439, 2879}.an Eisenstein prime with no imaginary part and real part of the form 3n − 1.

    Well chosen Sir Michael
    I'm not sure you can evoke Hardy's death here.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.

    That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!

    Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
    You're old fashioned
    I also know what it's like to grow up with absent / distant parents who chose career over care, so forgive me if I'm old fashioned and proud about it when I say that I believe being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.
    Modern Mothers, despite working more, spend just as much time with their children as they did in the past.

    Fathers also spend more time with their children than they did in the past despite working no less.

    Modern children get more parental time than they did in the mythical past with stay at home mums.
    Is it the case that some children get a lot less (those whose mothers would have stayed at home) while many more get some more (due to shorter working hours)?
    Bear in mind there was only a relatively short time when women stayed at home. Until well into the Victorian period mothers had to go out to work to earn money. The idea of the housewife is comparatively recent.

    In fact, in one factory in Birmingham, now part of the Black Country museum, there are hooks hanging from the ceiling. On being asked what they were, I was told that they were hooks newborn babies in swaddling clothes could be hung on when their mothers returned to work - in some cases, the day they had given birth.
    Prior to the invention of the factory system in the industrial revolution, most women (and indeed men) worked from home, so childcare wasn't an issue. Indeed the children were expected to contribute work too. Such homeworking persisted well into the industrial period, and indeed has never completely gone away.
    True - match and pinmaking both spring to mind.
  • Labour MPs have been told to prepare for Jeremy Corbyn to table a dramatic and immediate vote of no confidence in Theresa May’s government as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a general election if – as expected – she suffers a heavy defeat this week on her Brexit deal.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/12/labour-set-to-trigger-vote-to-topple-theresa-may-government
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Labour MPs have been told to prepare for Jeremy Corbyn to table a dramatic and immediate vote of no confidence in Theresa May’s government as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a general election if – as expected – she suffers a heavy defeat this week on her Brexit deal.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/12/labour-set-to-trigger-vote-to-topple-theresa-may-government

    To accomplish what? If the deal falls, he hasn't the numbers to pass one. If it passes, he doesn't want one.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2019

    It does feel odd this evening, doesn't it? - 3 days to what may be a decisive vote, but nothing any of us can do about it and, surprisingly, almost no polling, so we're pensively debating the history of the French army.

    Sit back and watch the Colts at the Chiefs......
    Looks like one way traffic at the moment, and that is with one of Chiefs best players of the season now no longer on the team. Colts don't appear to have any idea how to stop the Chiefs.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,589
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Mathematician Sir Michael Atiyah dies aged 89

    One of the world's foremost mathematicians, Prof Sir Michael Atiyah, has died at the age of 89.

    Sir Michael, who worked at Cambridge University before he retired, made outstanding contributions to geometry and topology.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46850763

    89 is the 24th prime following 83 and preceding 97.a Chen prime.a Pythagorean prime.

    What a brilliant age for a Mathematician to die.
    The smallest Sophie Germain Prime to start a Cunningham chain of the first kind of six terms, {89, 179, 359, 719, 1439, 2879}.an Eisenstein prime with no imaginary part and real part of the form 3n − 1.

    Well chosen Sir Michael
    Mathematicians never die, Mr Owls, they just stop adding.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Labour MPs have been told to prepare for Jeremy Corbyn to table a dramatic and immediate vote of no confidence in Theresa May’s government as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a general election if – as expected – she suffers a heavy defeat this week on her Brexit deal.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/12/labour-set-to-trigger-vote-to-topple-theresa-may-government

    Is this not illogical? She loses the vote so nobody is annoyed apart from half the Govt. The time to call a VONC is when the fractions are annoyed, if the vote passes the ERG, the Tory Remain Awkward Squad and the DUP will be. This is more fertile ground for Corbyn.
  • Labour MPs have been told to prepare for Jeremy Corbyn to table a dramatic and immediate vote of no confidence in Theresa May’s government as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a general election if – as expected – she suffers a heavy defeat this week on her Brexit deal.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/12/labour-set-to-trigger-vote-to-topple-theresa-may-government

    Is this not illogical? She loses the vote so nobody is annoyed apart from half the Govt. The time to call a VONC is when the fractions are annoyed, if the vote passes the ERG, the Tory Remain Awkward Squad and the DUP will be. This is more fertile ground for Corbyn.
    Some suggest that Jezza doesn't actually really want a GE at the moment, as he would have to make a decision over what to do about Brexit, but this gives him cover with the cult.

    Other opinions are available.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    ydoethur said:

    Mathematician Sir Michael Atiyah dies aged 89

    One of the world's foremost mathematicians, Prof Sir Michael Atiyah, has died at the age of 89.

    Sir Michael, who worked at Cambridge University before he retired, made outstanding contributions to geometry and topology.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46850763

    89 is the 24th prime following 83 and preceding 97.a Chen prime.a Pythagorean prime.

    What a brilliant age for a Mathematician to die.
    The smallest Sophie Germain Prime to start a Cunningham chain of the first kind of six terms, {89, 179, 359, 719, 1439, 2879}.an Eisenstein prime with no imaginary part and real part of the form 3n − 1.

    Well chosen Sir Michael
    Mathematicians never die, Mr Owls, they just stop adding.
    Their numbers up though.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    ydoethur said:

    The Yanks only won the Revolutionary War due to French help:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Yorktown

    Yes, and given the mind-bending incompetence of the traitor Washington, it's as well for the Yanks they had such help.

    But that was also before Jena.

    At Solferino they were supported by the Sardinians - or to be more precise, were fighting in support of the Sardinians.
    Operation Licorne was an exclusively French campaign, and reasonably described as a victory in 2004, against the Ivorians.

    The French routed the Syrians in 1922 also.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725

    Labour MPs have been told to prepare for Jeremy Corbyn to table a dramatic and immediate vote of no confidence in Theresa May’s government as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a general election if – as expected – she suffers a heavy defeat this week on her Brexit deal.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/12/labour-set-to-trigger-vote-to-topple-theresa-may-government

    Is this not illogical? She loses the vote so nobody is annoyed apart from half the Govt. The time to call a VONC is when the fractions are annoyed, if the vote passes the ERG, the Tory Remain Awkward Squad and the DUP will be. This is more fertile ground for Corbyn.
    Some suggest that Jezza doesn't actually really want a GE at the moment, as he would have to make a decision over what to do about Brexit, but this gives him cover with the cult.

    Other opinions are available.
    I think you are right TBF
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    ydoethur said:

    Mathematician Sir Michael Atiyah dies aged 89

    One of the world's foremost mathematicians, Prof Sir Michael Atiyah, has died at the age of 89.

    Sir Michael, who worked at Cambridge University before he retired, made outstanding contributions to geometry and topology.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46850763

    89 is the 24th prime following 83 and preceding 97.a Chen prime.a Pythagorean prime.

    What a brilliant age for a Mathematician to die.
    The smallest Sophie Germain Prime to start a Cunningham chain of the first kind of six terms, {89, 179, 359, 719, 1439, 2879}.an Eisenstein prime with no imaginary part and real part of the form 3n − 1.

    Well chosen Sir Michael
    Mathematicians never die, Mr Owls, they just stop adding.
    Their numbers up though.
    Very good! I shall go to bed before the puns multiply, and divide the board.

    Good night all.
  • Giving the British public a Final Say on Brexit through a new referendum is the most popular path if Theresa May‘s deal is rejected by MPs, a new poll has revealed.

    An exclusive survey for The Independent shows that a fresh vote received more support than any of the four other options put to the public, including allowing the prime minister to go back to Brussels or a no-deal Brexit.

    The survey by poling organisation BMG Research also suggests that more people oppose Ms May’s deal than back it, although the prime minister can take some comfort in the data showing a softening of opposition.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-peoples-vote-final-say-may-deal-defeated-a8724326.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
  • Giving the British public a Final Say on Brexit through a new referendum is the most popular path if Theresa May‘s deal is rejected by MPs, a new poll has revealed.

    An exclusive survey for The Independent shows that a fresh vote received more support than any of the four other options put to the public, including allowing the prime minister to go back to Brussels or a no-deal Brexit.

    The survey by poling organisation BMG Research also suggests that more people oppose Ms May’s deal than back it, although the prime minister can take some comfort in the data showing a softening of opposition.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-peoples-vote-final-say-may-deal-defeated-a8724326.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    The poll put Labour and the Conservatives neck and neck on 36 per cent of the vote, with the Liberal Democrats on 12 points, Ukip on 6 per cent and the Greens on 5 points, once don’t-knows were excluded.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Quincel said:

    As a leave voting renter I'd see a 30% fall in house prices as a price worth paying for Brexit in much the same way as I'd see eating chocolate icing as a price worth paying for eating cake.

    The irony of warning about house price falls is that the people who like them the most are young renters, who strongly skew Remain. Every cloud has a silver lining, eh?
    A house price fall would on paper reduce my net worth - but would allow my children to buy.

    On balance I would prefer house prices to fall
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    ydoethur said:

    Mathematician Sir Michael Atiyah dies aged 89

    One of the world's foremost mathematicians, Prof Sir Michael Atiyah, has died at the age of 89.

    Sir Michael, who worked at Cambridge University before he retired, made outstanding contributions to geometry and topology.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46850763

    89 is the 24th prime following 83 and preceding 97.a Chen prime.a Pythagorean prime.

    What a brilliant age for a Mathematician to die.
    The smallest Sophie Germain Prime to start a Cunningham chain of the first kind of six terms, {89, 179, 359, 719, 1439, 2879}.an Eisenstein prime with no imaginary part and real part of the form 3n − 1.

    Well chosen Sir Michael
    Mathematicians never die, Mr Owls, they just stop adding.
    There is a degree to which Mathematicians care about truth (roughly 100%), and they also care about accuracy and attribution.

    I'm sure that Mr BJOwls will carefully clarify his sources soon.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    not surprised tbh going from earlier comments
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725

    Giving the British public a Final Say on Brexit through a new referendum is the most popular path if Theresa May‘s deal is rejected by MPs, a new poll has revealed.

    An exclusive survey for The Independent shows that a fresh vote received more support than any of the four other options put to the public, including allowing the prime minister to go back to Brussels or a no-deal Brexit.

    The survey by poling organisation BMG Research also suggests that more people oppose Ms May’s deal than back it, although the prime minister can take some comfort in the data showing a softening of opposition.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-peoples-vote-final-say-may-deal-defeated-a8724326.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Most popular by 1%
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    MJW said:

    I think the issue with Brexit, and why the wound really won't heal for a very long time is that it's largely a proxy for greater problems we're utterly divided as to the solution to, namely how we cope in a world where there are fewer certainties and less control. For some, it is to 'take back control' within the nation state - the thing that unites anti-immigrant nationalists, free marketeer Brexit supporters and Lexiteers is their faith in withdrawing from the international status quo to pursue their preferred path. For others, the only way to survive and thrive is to thrust ourselves outward and reform and renew supranational institutions that, although flawed, are a bulwark against disasters, are generally engines of prosperity and the only way of tackling issues that can't be tackled by one country.

    I think the divide is a values based one, so expect a degree of polarisation similar to the US culture war. It is likely to persist for the forseable, and to dominate politics. The WA is the beginning of this battle, not its end.

    At its heart Brexit and other forms of Populist Nationalism in the world are controversies over how a nation conceives itself. There are 3 overlapping circles in the venn diagram:

    1) Those of national ethnicity
    2) Those of non-national ethnicity, but subscribing to national culture and values, however defined.
    3) Those who have legal permanent residency or citizenship, but are not of national ethnic group and who have fundamentally diferrent values, often with roots in other cultures.

    Increasngly these three circles are no longer congruent in Britain, but also in France, USA, Australia, Scandanavia and indeed a number of other countries across the world. Whether we resolve those incongruencies by excluding others or by becoming more inclusive in assimilation is the fundamental divide between Leavers and Remainers, and also between similar divisions in other countries.

    There’s also an important aspect of the rate of change.

    Leavers like organic progression while Remainers believe that society can be changed by politicians to accommodate an objective.

    You might end up in the same place eventually but organic change is slower.

    Someone also mentioned Identity Economics to me today. I haven’t read up on it but it appears an interesting concept

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_economics
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    Floater said:

    Quincel said:

    As a leave voting renter I'd see a 30% fall in house prices as a price worth paying for Brexit in much the same way as I'd see eating chocolate icing as a price worth paying for eating cake.

    The irony of warning about house price falls is that the people who like them the most are young renters, who strongly skew Remain. Every cloud has a silver lining, eh?
    A house price fall would on paper reduce my net worth - but would allow my children to buy.

    On balance I would prefer house prices to fall
    While falling house prices may well be desirable for many, and perhaps both inevitable and nessecary, the price correction is likely to cause quite a lot of short term misery even for those wanting to buy. That is what it was like for me in the early nineties.
  • You have to give the French FallOut 76 LARPers, they don't give up do they. Still at it again today.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mathematician Sir Michael Atiyah dies aged 89

    One of the world's foremost mathematicians, Prof Sir Michael Atiyah, has died at the age of 89.

    Sir Michael, who worked at Cambridge University before he retired, made outstanding contributions to geometry and topology.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46850763

    89 is the 24th prime following 83 and preceding 97.a Chen prime.a Pythagorean prime.

    What a brilliant age for a Mathematician to die.
    The smallest Sophie Germain Prime to start a Cunningham chain of the first kind of six terms, {89, 179, 359, 719, 1439, 2879}.an Eisenstein prime with no imaginary part and real part of the form 3n − 1.

    Well chosen Sir Michael
    Mathematicians never die, Mr Owls, they just stop adding.
    There is a degree to which Mathematicians care about truth (roughly 100%), and they also care about accuracy and attribution.

    I'm sure that Mr BJOwls will carefully clarify his sources soon.
    HP, Daddies, Chop and occasionally Heinz
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