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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the Tory Brexit crisis continues Corbyn’s “Best PM” ratings

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited January 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the Tory Brexit crisis continues Corbyn’s “Best PM” ratings drop to post GE2017 low

Chart @Statto

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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    First.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Does the poll showing 76% of current Labour supporters think the Leave vote was a mistake trump the anecdotage about Remain to Leave converts ?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Strong and Stable.
  • First like Corbyn at GE2017.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    edited January 2019
    fourth like Boris

    Edit/Fifth and falling, like Boris
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Well, I'm going to post this again fpt - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage#commentsContainer

    Corbyn rivals May in stubbornness. Between them they will land us in a very bad place. But it is the Tories who will primarily be responsible and who will rightly take the blame.

  • It's striking that Theresa May's ratings haven't really changed at all over the entire period. All the movement seems to be disillusionment with Corbyn.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Well, I'm going to post this again fpt - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage#commentsContainer

    Corbyn rivals May in stubbornness. Between them they will land us in a very bad place. But it is the Tories who will primarily be responsible and who will rightly take the blame.

    No Deal with be the Conservative Party's Winter of Discontent with knobs on.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    It's striking that Theresa May's ratings haven't really changed at all over the entire period. All the movement seems to be disillusionment with Corbyn.

    I think casual observers think she is being bullied by the EU.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I'm going to post this again fpt - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage#commentsContainer

    Corbyn rivals May in stubbornness. Between them they will land us in a very bad place. But it is the Tories who will primarily be responsible and who will rightly take the blame.

    Yawn - Repetition dosn't make it any more convincing. JCs in the dock today - he put himself there!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    fpt Foxy's story - amazing!!!
  • TOPPING said:

    It's striking that Theresa May's ratings haven't really changed at all over the entire period. All the movement seems to be disillusionment with Corbyn.

    I think casual observers think she is being bullied by the EU.
    Bullied by the ERG.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Talking of Trump, the Atlantic* has a long read cover story calling for his impeachment, which argues that if the new Attorney General believes that Presidents can't be indicted, and that evidence against un-indicted suspects should not be made public (as appears to be the case with Barr), the impeachment proceeding might be the only possible way to satisfactorily conclude the investigation into allegations against Trump:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/impeachment-trump/580468/

    (*The Atlantic not being exactly a hotbed of radicial progressives...)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    "Not sure" is having a good knock.

    If it gets above 50%, is that sufficient authority to set up an anarcho-syndicalist commune instead?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I'm going to post this again fpt - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage#commentsContainer

    Corbyn rivals May in stubbornness. Between them they will land us in a very bad place. But it is the Tories who will primarily be responsible and who will rightly take the blame.

    The author seems to have a big chip on his shoulder.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    FPT...
    And even if true, there's no way there'd be enough of it for the rest of us...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Month on month at the Mail suggests it might have hit the bottom. But over the year? 150,000 lost readers..... Cracking effort, Geordie.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Nigelb said:

    FPT...

    And even if true, there's no way there'd be enough of it for the rest of us...
    But OGH only needs a teaspoon.....
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Nigelb said:

    FPT...

    And even if true, there's no way there'd be enough of it for the rest of us...
    I'm sure it smells good.

    There are people who think it healthy to drink their own urine.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    And this - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/leveraged-loans-at-pre-crisis-levels-and-i-m-worried-says-carney-r3s9qt59r

    is not really what we need a few months before we divide up financial markets and make regulatory oversight and risk management more difficult, potentially much more difficult than before.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I'm going to post this again fpt - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage#commentsContainer

    Corbyn rivals May in stubbornness. Between them they will land us in a very bad place. But it is the Tories who will primarily be responsible and who will rightly take the blame.

    No Deal with be the Conservative Party's Winter of Discontent with knobs on.
    That's Corbyn's aim, and why he won't budge any more than May will, of course. She's counting on running down the clock to force MPs to back her in a straight Deal vs No Deal choice. He's counting on MPs to be ultimately unwilling to find a majority for anything, so that No Deal happens by default and the Tories can be blamed for the consequences.

    Members of Parliament appear to split, broadly speaking, into four substantial (if not quite equal) blocs: People's Voters, Norwegians, Dealers and No Dealers. If a majority for either revocation or one of the first three positions cannot be assembled - and demonstrated conclusively to exist through a Commons vote - before March 29th then the No Dealers win - and Corbyn is amongst them, even if he cannot admit as much publicly for obvious reasons.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT...

    And even if true, there's no way there'd be enough of it for the rest of us...
    I'm sure it smells good.

    There are people who think it healthy to drink their own urine.
    I believe from watching 'Friends' years ago it's good for jellyfish stings - - a natural anti-septic.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Scott_P said:
    He is determined to make himself look silly. He could have gone in, spoken to her and said, she ain't budging on no deal. He would have achieved the same thing, but with zero damage.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I'm going to post this again fpt - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage#commentsContainer

    Corbyn rivals May in stubbornness. Between them they will land us in a very bad place. But it is the Tories who will primarily be responsible and who will rightly take the blame.

    The author seems to have a big chip on his shoulder.

    Maybe so. But he is right that (a) our political class has been found wanting; and (b) that Britain has simply not taken Ireland seriously, indeed has been annoyed that it should take Ireland and its requirements seriously.

    Listen to those commentators on the WATO earlier. All of them had either worked or studied here, all had a fondness for Britain and all were astounded - and not in a good way - at the way we were dealing with this.

    We would do well to see ourselves as others are now seeing us instead of mulishly insisting that we're right and the rest of the world is wrong.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    This was interesting, but still wrong, depending on who he means by 'They':

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/as-brexit-deal-goes-down-in-flames-exasperated-europe-wonders-what-the-britons-want/2019/01/16/33abb552-1979-11e9-a804-c35766b9f234_story.html
    “It’s a bit like playing strip-poker with someone who’s an exhibitionist,” said Hosuk Lee-Makiyama, the director of the Brussels-based European Center for International Political Economy. “They don’t care about economic costs. They care about sovereignty. We just assumed that they had the same interests and the same costs as we do, and they don’t...
  • Cyclefree said:

    And this - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/leveraged-loans-at-pre-crisis-levels-and-i-m-worried-says-carney-r3s9qt59r

    is not really what we need a few months before we divide up financial markets and make regulatory oversight and risk management more difficult, potentially much more difficult than before.

    Stop being so pessimistic.

    Brexit will bring sunlit uplands.

    That Anglo-German trade deal in particular that David Davis promised will sort everything out.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Scott_P said:
    Did he have to remind colleagues he was LoTO? :p
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
    How the hell did thousands of fake ledger entries get made without anyone noticing? I'd love to know the full story here.
  • Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
    How the hell did thousands of fake ledger entries get made without anyone noticing? I'd love to know the full story here.
    Same way Enron pulled off this trick?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    felix said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT...

    And even if true, there's no way there'd be enough of it for the rest of us...
    I'm sure it smells good.

    There are people who think it healthy to drink their own urine.
    I believe from watching 'Friends' years ago it's good for jellyfish stings - - a natural anti-septic.
    My mother told me years ago that people used to wipe babies' faces with a used (wee only) nappy to keep it free from infection, if nothing else was available. I think she meant pre-War but who knows? I never asked her whether she used that technique on me.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
    How the hell did thousands of fake ledger entries get made without anyone noticing? I'd love to know the full story here.
    Same way Enron pulled off this trick?
    Remind me.
  • You know what, it's beginning to look like a game where first one side snatches defeat from the jaws of victory, and then the other side snatches it back.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Some rather embarrassing tweets from senior government MPs:

    https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-tweets-mps-cant-delete-shown-on-billboards-11609810
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
    How the hell did thousands of fake ledger entries get made without anyone noticing? I'd love to know the full story here.
    Same way Enron pulled off this trick?
    Remind me.
    Created a load of fake sales/transactions via other companies (that they controlled but didn't disclose) that boosted the value of Enron.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    AndyJS said:

    Some rather embarrassing tweets from senior government MPs:

    https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-tweets-mps-cant-delete-shown-on-billboards-11609810

    Fox’s one is a bit cheeky. It should be the easiest, but he went on to say politics would get in the way. I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what happened.
  • Created a load of fake sales/transactions via other companies (that they controlled but didn't disclose) that boosted the value of Enron.

    But that was a complex business trading intangibles. This is a chain of cake shops, which should be easy to audit.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I'm going to post this again fpt - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage#commentsContainer

    Corbyn rivals May in stubbornness. Between them they will land us in a very bad place. But it is the Tories who will primarily be responsible and who will rightly take the blame.

    The author seems to have a big chip on his shoulder.

    Maybe so. But he is right that (a) our political class has been found wanting; and (b) that Britain has simply not taken Ireland seriously, indeed has been annoyed that it should take Ireland and its requirements seriously.

    Listen to those commentators on the WATO earlier. All of them had either worked or studied here, all had a fondness for Britain and all were astounded - and not in a good way - at the way we were dealing with this.

    We would do well to see ourselves as others are now seeing us instead of mulishly insisting that we're right and the rest of the world is wrong.
    Equally, informed people (and I accept that you do) should be willing to investigate why so many people are unhappy with the EU's direction of travel, why they feel threatened by globalisation (and that concern is not restricted to this country) and at least investigate the possibility that what is good for people like them is not seen as good by others.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
    How the hell did thousands of fake ledger entries get made without anyone noticing? I'd love to know the full story here.
    You can make as many ledger entries as you like, but ultimately every entry on the balance sheet.. particularly bank balances should mean something/have a reconciliation.
    I don't understand how the bank balances were 'faked'
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    Jonathan said:

    Scott_P said:
    He is determined to make himself look silly. He could have gone in, spoken to her and said, she ain't budging on no deal. He would have achieved the same thing, but with zero damage.
    The far left is addicted to No Platforming / No Shared Platform.

    In Corbyn's case, it's particularly silly (in the eyes of floating voters, not necessarily with his base), given who he's previously talked to and shared a platform with.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I'm going to post this again fpt - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage#commentsContainer

    Corbyn rivals May in stubbornness. Between them they will land us in a very bad place. But it is the Tories who will primarily be responsible and who will rightly take the blame.

    The author seems to have a big chip on his shoulder.

    Maybe so. But he is right that (a) our political class has been found wanting; and (b) that Britain has simply not taken Ireland seriously, indeed has been annoyed that it should take Ireland and its requirements seriously.

    Listen to those commentators on the WATO earlier. All of them had either worked or studied here, all had a fondness for Britain and all were astounded - and not in a good way - at the way we were dealing with this.

    We would do well to see ourselves as others are now seeing us instead of mulishly insisting that we're right and the rest of the world is wrong.
    Maybe you should try the same. Simple fact is that both sides have shown arrogance and opportunism in the light of the vote. This absurd masochistic desire for self-flagellation helps no-one.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
    How the hell did thousands of fake ledger entries get made without anyone noticing? I'd love to know the full story here.
    Everyone running a business is going to be checking up on the state of their accounts after reading about this, I dare say.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    TOPPING said:

    fpt Foxy's story - amazing!!!

    my maternal grandfather ( Irish and Catholic - you probably lurked in one of his ditches in Fermanagh :-) ) was 15 and in the BEF in 1914. He took part in the retreat from Mons and subsequent fighting in northern France. In November 1914 his unit was attacked by the germans who outflanked the paddies and set up a machine gun. The machine gun killed all his comrades to the left and right of him. He got hit in the neck and eventually stretchered off. His injury was such that he got invalided out of the army. His elder brother died the next year (shot ) and his other brother the year after (fell off duckboards and never seen again ). The german machine gun bullet basically saved his life,
  • Still these are my favourite Brexit tweets.

    To think there's some terminally stupid people who think David Davis would have done a decent job as Brexit Secretary if Mrs May had let him.

    https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1052267923795038213
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Cyclefree said:

    And this - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/leveraged-loans-at-pre-crisis-levels-and-i-m-worried-says-carney-r3s9qt59r

    is not really what we need a few months before we divide up financial markets and make regulatory oversight and risk management more difficult, potentially much more difficult than before.

    Stop being so pessimistic.

    Brexit will bring sunlit uplands.

    That Anglo-German trade deal in particular that David Davis promised will sort everything out.
    Wait for the Anglo - Oklahoma one
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    AndyJS said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
    How the hell did thousands of fake ledger entries get made without anyone noticing? I'd love to know the full story here.
    Everyone running a business is going to be checking up on the state of their accounts after reading about this, I dare say.
    Nah, businesses know roughly how much they have in the bank/overdraft account.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    It's striking that Theresa May's ratings haven't really changed at all over the entire period. All the movement seems to be disillusionment with Corbyn.

    I think casual observers think she is being bullied by the EU.
    Bullied by the ERG.
    People who know what the ERG is are not casual observers.
  • Scott_P said:
    And, of course, any Labour MP who does not follow instructions will be subjected to the usual hate-filled abuse from the Corbyn Cult. A cynic might conclude that Jeremy is setting some MPs up for deselection.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I'm going to post this again fpt - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage#commentsContainer

    Corbyn rivals May in stubbornness. Between them they will land us in a very bad place. But it is the Tories who will primarily be responsible and who will rightly take the blame.

    The author seems to have a big chip on his shoulder.

    Maybe so. But he is right that (a) our political class has been found wanting; and (b) that Britain has simply not taken Ireland seriously, indeed has been annoyed that it should take Ireland and its requirements seriously.

    Listen to those commentators on the WATO earlier. All of them had either worked or studied here, all had a fondness for Britain and all were astounded - and not in a good way - at the way we were dealing with this.

    We would do well to see ourselves as others are now seeing us instead of mulishly insisting that we're right and the rest of the world is wrong.
    One of my sons is heavily involved in exporting, particularly to the Asia Pacific region. I asked him the other day, in an email 'What do you think of it (Brexit etc) so far? What do your non-Brit friends and colleagues think/say?
    His succinct reply was 'They all just think it’s a mess and British people are idiots.'

    He works with, and has customers, and social contacts, in all sorts of places Eastwards from Pakistan to Japan, and South to NZ. He lives 'Out East' and his children go to an international school where there are children of 60+ nationalities.
  • This captures the malign stupidity of our ruling class rather well, I think:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Herdson, well, he's appeared at Iranian events, and referred to friends in Hamas and Hezbollah.

    Surprised he won't talk with May, given who he's been happy to meet. Do Hamas still throw gay people and political rivals off rooftops, or is that a bit passe nowadays?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Still these are my favourite Brexit tweets.

    To think there's some terminally stupid people who think David Davis would have done a decent job as Brexit Secretary if Mrs May had let him.

    https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1052267923795038213

    Unoverrepeatable! (If that's a word - it is now.)
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,785
    edited January 2019
    Every which way Brexit will be the generational reason the Tories end up out of power:

    With May's deal - like Blair going into Iraq, potentially 2005 is still to come. Flouncing to the right will happen, but be limited.

    With Remain or a softer deal. Can they hold confidence? Winter of Discontent a good analogy, with a full Labour 78-92 cycle to play out. Whether in or out of power through it, messy.

    With No Deal: Imagine the Arab Spring had happened to coincide with the peak of Blair's militarism and we now had long-term occupying missions from.Tunis to Riyadh to Sanaa to Damascus to Doha and due to stretch lost some actual military campaigns and made a worse job of the peace.

    The first two will eventually provoke a normal 15 year cycle, the third all bets are off.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Jonathan said:

    Scott_P said:
    He is determined to make himself look silly. He could have gone in, spoken to her and said, she ain't budging on no deal. He would have achieved the same thing, but with zero damage.
    He has spent the past 40 years neither compromising nor giving a flying f&ck about anything other than his insular, out of date socialist ideals. Why on earth do you think he would compromise now?

    Troops Out!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2019
    Owen Paterson coming over as slightly zealous about Brexit on the BBC news channel.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    You know what, it's beginning to look like a game where first one side snatches defeat from the jaws of victory, and then the other side snatches it back.

    Or a game of pass the parcel. Only where the parcel is a bomb that only goes off when you remove the final sheet of wrapping paper. And none of the players know how many layers of wrapping are actually left.

    Or something like that anyway.

    Regardless, these might not necessarily be the most amusing times ever for us to be living through, but this has the potential to make a magnificent West End hit when it's all over.

    "Strong and Stable: The Musical," or "The Brexit That Goes Wrong," perhaps?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    You know what, it's beginning to look like a game where first one side snatches defeat from the jaws of victory, and then the other side snatches it back.

    They are taking succour from Burnley winning 2-1 on Saturday without a shot on target - - Fulham scored all three goals......
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    felix said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I'm going to post this again fpt - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage#commentsContainer

    Corbyn rivals May in stubbornness. Between them they will land us in a very bad place. But it is the Tories who will primarily be responsible and who will rightly take the blame.

    The author seems to have a big chip on his shoulder.

    Maybe so. But he is right that (a) our political class has been found wanting; and (b) that Britain has simply not taken Ireland seriously, indeed has been annoyed that it should take Ireland and its requirements seriously.

    Listen to those commentators on the WATO earlier. All of them had either worked or studied here, all had a fondness for Britain and all were astounded - and not in a good way - at the way we were dealing with this.

    We would do well to see ourselves as others are now seeing us instead of mulishly insisting that we're right and the rest of the world is wrong.
    Maybe you should try the same. Simple fact is that both sides have shown arrogance and opportunism in the light of the vote. This absurd masochistic desire for self-flagellation helps no-one.
    I have done - see here: http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/01/08/trying-to-work-out-what-is-britains-european-strategy/

    Perhaps you missed this paragraph - "In this it was beautifully mirrored by the EU itself which never properly realised that having a country such as Britain with its different history, political and legal culture and approach as a member required a step change in its approach and thinking, beyond simply shuffling up a bit to make room for a few more chairs round the table."

    Or this - "The EU may – at its worst – be many infuriating things: arrogant, complacent, sometimes venal, often deaf to concerns, inflexible, insensitive, self-interested, defensive, obstructive, unimaginative, overly bureaucratic, with a tendency to overreach, sometimes undemocratic etc."
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    TOPPING said:

    fpt Foxy's story - amazing!!!

    my maternal grandfather ( Irish and Catholic - you probably lurked in one of his ditches in Fermanagh :-) ) was 15 and in the BEF in 1914. He took part in the retreat from Mons and subsequent fighting in northern France. In November 1914 his unit was attacked by the germans who outflanked the paddies and set up a machine gun. The machine gun killed all his comrades to the left and right of him. He got hit in the neck and eventually stretchered off. His injury was such that he got invalided out of the army. His elder brother died the next year (shot ) and his other brother the year after (fell off duckboards and never seen again ). The german machine gun bullet basically saved his life,
    One thing I read recently was that August - December 1914 was far more murderous than any other four month period in WW1. Commanders simply didn't appreciate at that stage just how lethal rifle and machine gun fire was, when directed from strong defensive positions.

    French officers would ride into battle in full dress uniform, at the head of soldiers wearing bright blue and scarlet, and were cut down in droves.
  • DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215

    Scott_P said:
    And, of course, any Labour MP who does not follow instructions will be subjected to the usual hate-filled abuse from the Corbyn Cult. A cynic might conclude that Jeremy is setting some MPs up for deselection.

    I think this plays out quite well for everyone. Corbyn can retain his purity, rage a bit at the Labour MPs for talking to the Tories, he wouldn't have to vote for the deal but also No Deal is avoided.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_P said:
    He is determined to make himself look silly. He could have gone in, spoken to her and said, she ain't budging on no deal. He would have achieved the same thing, but with zero damage.
    The far left is addicted to No Platforming / No Shared Platform.

    In Corbyn's case, it's particularly silly (in the eyes of floating voters, not necessarily with his base), given who he's previously talked to and shared a platform with.
    Richard Burgon and Jo Swinson were both being interviewed the other day. As I recall the exchange Burgon wanted Swinson to a) apologise for having been part of the Coalition and b) promise to never go into Coalition with the Tories again before he would go much further with the discussion.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    For the first time, YouGov have 50% saying Brexit was the wrong decision, with only 40% thinking it was right.

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j09xvmg215/PeoplesVoteResults_190116_SnapPolling_w.pdf
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    You know what, it's beginning to look like a game where first one side snatches defeat from the jaws of victory, and then the other side snatches it back.

    Or a game of pass the parcel. Only where the parcel is a bomb that only goes off when you remove the final sheet of wrapping paper. And none of the players know how many layers of wrapping are actually left.

    Or something like that anyway.

    Regardless, these might not necessarily be the most amusing times ever for us to be living through, but this has the potential to make a magnificent West End hit when it's all over.

    "Strong and Stable: The Musical," or "The Brexit That Goes Wrong," perhaps?
    AndyJS said:

    Owen Paterson coming over as slightly zealous about Brexit on the BBC news channel.

    'Oklahoma'
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
    How the hell did thousands of fake ledger entries get made without anyone noticing? I'd love to know the full story here.
    Everyone running a business is going to be checking up on the state of their accounts after reading about this, I dare say.
    Nah, businesses know roughly how much they have in the bank/overdraft account.
    It's not as if the price of cakes and croissants and coffee fluctuates wildly so the figures in the accounts and in the bank should have been reasonably predictable and stable. It's very curious. And it suggests that more than the now departed Finance Chief must have been involved.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Cameron's biggest mistake was not realising that calling a referendum just after Corbyn became Labour leader wasn't the brightest idea. With a normal pro-EU Labour leader in place, winning the referendum wouldn't have been a problem in all likelihood.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Scott_P said:
    You can't play with Treeza cuz she smells of wee!!!

    Jeremy Corbyn MP, Leader of the Opposition to playing with people who smell of wee
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    This captures the malign stupidity of our ruling class rather well, I think:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html


    Snap! Already posted - and already being criticised by the usual suspects on here!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Scott_P said:
    If you live by the sword, Jezza... All those years of trooping through the 'nay' lobby with the Tories when Blair was in his pomp are coming back now.

  • You know what, it's beginning to look like a game where first one side snatches defeat from the jaws of victory, and then the other side snatches it back.

    It looks to me a lot like a No Deal Brexit. At no stage has either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn chosen to put the national interest above narrow political calculation. To that extent they are both on the same side.That's no surprise given that they are mirror images of each other:
    * Dreary
    * Inflexible
    * Lacking in imagination
    * Incapable of compromise
    * Stuck in the past
    * Insular
    * Suspicious
    * Doctrinaire

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
    How the hell did thousands of fake ledger entries get made without anyone noticing? I'd love to know the full story here.
    Everyone running a business is going to be checking up on the state of their accounts after reading about this, I dare say.
    Nah, businesses know roughly how much they have in the bank/overdraft account.
    It's not as if the price of cakes and croissants and coffee fluctuates wildly so the figures in the accounts and in the bank should have been reasonably predictable and stable. It's very curious. And it suggests that more than the now departed Finance Chief must have been involved.
    I came across (employee) fraud about a decade ago. Here's the thing, the banks still reconciled... simply the company was less profitable than it should have been.
    I simply can't understand how the banks could be so far off in this case. It suggests an absolubtely staggering level of incompetence by the auditors.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    fpt Foxy's story - amazing!!!

    my maternal grandfather ( Irish and Catholic - you probably lurked in one of his ditches in Fermanagh :-) ) was 15 and in the BEF in 1914. He took part in the retreat from Mons and subsequent fighting in northern France. In November 1914 his unit was attacked by the germans who outflanked the paddies and set up a machine gun. The machine gun killed all his comrades to the left and right of him. He got hit in the neck and eventually stretchered off. His injury was such that he got invalided out of the army. His elder brother died the next year (shot ) and his other brother the year after (fell off duckboards and never seen again ). The german machine gun bullet basically saved his life,
    Such amazing stories. Who would be a predestinationist??
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt Foxy's story - amazing!!!

    my maternal grandfather ( Irish and Catholic - you probably lurked in one of his ditches in Fermanagh :-) ) was 15 and in the BEF in 1914. He took part in the retreat from Mons and subsequent fighting in northern France. In November 1914 his unit was attacked by the germans who outflanked the paddies and set up a machine gun. The machine gun killed all his comrades to the left and right of him. He got hit in the neck and eventually stretchered off. His injury was such that he got invalided out of the army. His elder brother died the next year (shot ) and his other brother the year after (fell off duckboards and never seen again ). The german machine gun bullet basically saved his life,
    One thing I read recently was that August - December 1914 was far more murderous than any other four month period in WW1. Commanders simply didn't appreciate at that stage just how lethal rifle and machine gun fire was, when directed from strong defensive positions.

    French officers would ride into battle in full dress uniform, at the head of soldiers wearing bright blue and scarlet, and were cut down in droves.
    French casualties in that period were appalling as they had doubled up by adopting attack a loutrance as their military philosophy rather than digging a trench and sitting in it, The germans werent much better. The brits having learned some lessons in South Africe were more careful with their soldiers lives.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    TOPPING said:

    fpt Foxy's story - amazing!!!

    my maternal grandfather ( Irish and Catholic - you probably lurked in one of his ditches in Fermanagh :-) ) was 15 and in the BEF in 1914. He took part in the retreat from Mons and subsequent fighting in northern France. In November 1914 his unit was attacked by the germans who outflanked the paddies and set up a machine gun. The machine gun killed all his comrades to the left and right of him. He got hit in the neck and eventually stretchered off. His injury was such that he got invalided out of the army. His elder brother died the next year (shot ) and his other brother the year after (fell off duckboards and never seen again ). The german machine gun bullet basically saved his life,
    Rather lucky to be here then Alan!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    DanSmith said:

    Scott_P said:
    And, of course, any Labour MP who does not follow instructions will be subjected to the usual hate-filled abuse from the Corbyn Cult. A cynic might conclude that Jeremy is setting some MPs up for deselection.

    I think this plays out quite well for everyone. Corbyn can retain his purity, rage a bit at the Labour MPs for talking to the Tories, he wouldn't have to vote for the deal but also No Deal is avoided.
    Corbyn doesn't want avoid No Deal.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited January 2019

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
    How the hell did thousands of fake ledger entries get made without anyone noticing? I'd love to know the full story here.
    Same way Enron pulled off this trick?
    Remind me.
    Created a load of fake sales/transactions via other companies (that they controlled but didn't disclose) that boosted the value of Enron.
    Don't see how that works with a coffee shop. Was Patisserie Valerie setting up fake transactions in icing with Patisserie Ronald (owned by Valerie)? Dare say we'll find out eventually.

    Edited: plus the problem has been going back three years. That's an awful lot of occasions when something should have been spotted and wasn't.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt Foxy's story - amazing!!!

    my maternal grandfather ( Irish and Catholic - you probably lurked in one of his ditches in Fermanagh :-) ) was 15 and in the BEF in 1914. He took part in the retreat from Mons and subsequent fighting in northern France. In November 1914 his unit was attacked by the germans who outflanked the paddies and set up a machine gun. The machine gun killed all his comrades to the left and right of him. He got hit in the neck and eventually stretchered off. His injury was such that he got invalided out of the army. His elder brother died the next year (shot ) and his other brother the year after (fell off duckboards and never seen again ). The german machine gun bullet basically saved his life,
    One thing I read recently was that August - December 1914 was far more murderous than any other four month period in WW1. Commanders simply didn't appreciate at that stage just how lethal rifle and machine gun fire was, when directed from strong defensive positions.

    French officers would ride into battle in full dress uniform, at the head of soldiers wearing bright blue and scarlet, and were cut down in droves.
    Most British and French wars in the recent past had of course been against people armed with much less sophisticated weapons than the British or French. I seem to recall though that there were some pretty heavy losses in the American Civil War, 50 years earlier. Boer War casualties were mainly from disease.

    Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim gun,
    And they have not!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    AndyJS said:

    Cameron's biggest mistake was not realising that calling a referendum just after Corbyn became Labour leader wasn't the brightest idea. With a normal pro-EU Labour leader in place, winning the referendum wouldn't have been a problem in all likelihood.

    Given the dynamics of the campaign, I don’t think an identikit Labour version of Cameron or Clegg would have made that much difference and would have just enabled Leave to make it a vote against “LibLabCon”.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Scott_P said:
    If you live by the sword, Jezza... All those years of trooping through the 'nay' lobby with the Tories when Blair was in his pomp are coming back now.

    Quite.

    Actually, a governmental quad of Coops, Liddo, Benners and the Governator wouldn’t be too bad. Compared to what we have now, Shangrila.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    Not sure you can read too much into this other than Corbyn is even more clueless than May. It hasn’t been mirrored in Labour’s standing in the polls to anywhere near the same degree and it didn’t stop Labour depriving May of her majority in the last election.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Scott_P said:
    And, of course, any Labour MP who does not follow instructions will be subjected to the usual hate-filled abuse from the Corbyn Cult. A cynic might conclude that Jeremy is setting some MPs up for deselection.

    And Philip Hammond has told business leaders that no deal will be off the table, as demanded by Corbyn. There's your GNU right there.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/17/philip-hammond-faces-cabinet-backlash-telling-business-chiefs/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt Foxy's story - amazing!!!

    my maternal grandfather ( Irish and Catholic - you probably lurked in one of his ditches in Fermanagh :-) ) was 15 and in the BEF in 1914. He took part in the retreat from Mons and subsequent fighting in northern France. In November 1914 his unit was attacked by the germans who outflanked the paddies and set up a machine gun. The machine gun killed all his comrades to the left and right of him. He got hit in the neck and eventually stretchered off. His injury was such that he got invalided out of the army. His elder brother died the next year (shot ) and his other brother the year after (fell off duckboards and never seen again ). The german machine gun bullet basically saved his life,
    One thing I read recently was that August - December 1914 was far more murderous than any other four month period in WW1. Commanders simply didn't appreciate at that stage just how lethal rifle and machine gun fire was, when directed from strong defensive positions.

    French officers would ride into battle in full dress uniform, at the head of soldiers wearing bright blue and scarlet, and were cut down in droves.
    French casualties in that period were appalling as they had doubled up by adopting attack a loutrance as their military philosophy rather than digging a trench and sitting in it, The germans werent much better. The brits having learned some lessons in South Africe were more careful with their soldiers lives.
    Western nations sent military observers to the Russo-Japanese war, who then drew the wrong conclusions.

    The Japanese won, so the conclusion they drew was that aggressive strategies paid off. They ignored the fact that the Russians inflicted dreadful casualties on the Japanese, despite the incompetence of their leaders.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt Foxy's story - amazing!!!

    my maternal grandfather ( Irish and Catholic - you probably lurked in one of his ditches in Fermanagh :-) ) was 15 and in the BEF in 1914. He took part in the retreat from Mons and subsequent fighting in northern France. In November 1914 his unit was attacked by the germans who outflanked the paddies and set up a machine gun. The machine gun killed all his comrades to the left and right of him. He got hit in the neck and eventually stretchered off. His injury was such that he got invalided out of the army. His elder brother died the next year (shot ) and his other brother the year after (fell off duckboards and never seen again ). The german machine gun bullet basically saved his life,
    Such amazing stories. Who would be a predestinationist??
    lol

    oddly enough my grandfather ! Once out of the army he returned home built a house in county Monaghan met a girl ( prod ) and married her, He became an anglicen then had a bust up with the minister and went Presbyterian.

    And all of this in the middle of the war of independence and the civil war in the border counties. Nutjob ! It must be where I get it from:-)
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Anazina said:

    Scott_P said:
    If you live by the sword, Jezza... All those years of trooping through the 'nay' lobby with the Tories when Blair was in his pomp are coming back now.

    Quite.

    Actually, a governmental quad of Coops, Liddo, Benners and the Governator wouldn’t be too bad. Compared to what we have now, Shangrila.
    Indeed...power seems to be seeping away from the corbynites a bit. they won't like that.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    If you think we're heading for no deal, Betfair has 7.6 up on it happening. Unlike the Ladbrokes market, there's no time limit that I can see.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
    How the hell did thousands of fake ledger entries get made without anyone noticing? I'd love to know the full story here.
    Same way Enron pulled off this trick?
    Remind me.
    Created a load of fake sales/transactions via other companies (that they controlled but didn't disclose) that boosted the value of Enron.
    Don't see how that works with a coffee shop. Was Patisserie Valerie setting up fake transactions in icing with Patisserie Ronald (owned by Valerie)? Dare say we'll find out eventually.
    Easier to do with sales, perhaps.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Not sure you can read too much into this other than Corbyn is even more clueless than May. It hasn’t been mirrored in Labour’s standing in the polls to anywhere near the same degree and it didn’t stop Labour depriving May of her majority in the last election.

    I think it is mirrored in the polls - Labour should be sat around 48-52% and they aren't...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Not at all - it's got a pile of locations that make zero sense - my favourite one is at the backend of a shopping centre in Preston where no-one ever goes I only walked past it if the other carparks were full.
    How the hell did thousands of fake ledger entries get made without anyone noticing? I'd love to know the full story here.
    Same way Enron pulled off this trick?
    Remind me.
    Created a load of fake sales/transactions via other companies (that they controlled but didn't disclose) that boosted the value of Enron.
    Don't see how that works with a coffee shop. Was Patisserie Valerie setting up fake transactions in icing with Patisserie Ronald (owned by Valerie)? Dare say we'll find out eventually.
    I go for a beer with the interim CFO most Thursdays
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Scott_P said:
    And, of course, any Labour MP who does not follow instructions will be subjected to the usual hate-filled abuse from the Corbyn Cult. A cynic might conclude that Jeremy is setting some MPs up for deselection.

    And Philip Hammond has told business leaders that no deal will be off the table, as demanded by Corbyn. There's your GNU right there.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/17/philip-hammond-faces-cabinet-backlash-telling-business-chiefs/
    That's not a promise he can make.
  • Anazina said:

    Scott_P said:
    If you live by the sword, Jezza... All those years of trooping through the 'nay' lobby with the Tories when Blair was in his pomp are coming back now.

    Quite.

    Actually, a governmental quad of Coops, Liddo, Benners and the Governator wouldn’t be too bad. Compared to what we have now, Shangrila.
    If it gets a deal done, I would vote for it. As party member and a voter.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    edited January 2019

    Scott_P said:
    And, of course, any Labour MP who does not follow instructions will be subjected to the usual hate-filled abuse from the Corbyn Cult. A cynic might conclude that Jeremy is setting some MPs up for deselection.

    And Philip Hammond has told business leaders that no deal will be off the table, as demanded by Corbyn. There's your GNU right there.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/17/philip-hammond-faces-cabinet-backlash-telling-business-chiefs/
    Time for a Night of the Long Knives, PM. You're untouchable as leader. You are not facing a General Election any time soon. Have a good old Cabinet spring clean....
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    And, of course, any Labour MP who does not follow instructions will be subjected to the usual hate-filled abuse from the Corbyn Cult. A cynic might conclude that Jeremy is setting some MPs up for deselection.

    And Philip Hammond has told business leaders that no deal will be off the table, as demanded by Corbyn. There's your GNU right there.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/17/philip-hammond-faces-cabinet-backlash-telling-business-chiefs/
    That's not a promise he can make.
    Sure it is. As discussed earlier, it’s easy to reset the default No Deal.

    Revoke Article 50.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    And, of course, any Labour MP who does not follow instructions will be subjected to the usual hate-filled abuse from the Corbyn Cult. A cynic might conclude that Jeremy is setting some MPs up for deselection.

    And Philip Hammond has told business leaders that no deal will be off the table, as demanded by Corbyn. There's your GNU right there.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/17/philip-hammond-faces-cabinet-backlash-telling-business-chiefs/
    That's not a promise he can make.
    Sure it is. As discussed earlier, it’s easy to reset the default No Deal.

    Revoke Article 50.
    You think that's easy?
  • Cyclefree said:

    This captures the malign stupidity of our ruling class rather well, I think:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html


    Snap! Already posted - and already being criticised by the usual suspects on here!

    Yep - I just saw that you linked to it.

    It's often easier and more comforting to ignore what is staring you directly in the face, but that does not make it go away. Instead, it just means the same things happen again and again.

    The English public school is brilliant at what it does - and that's what makes it the most dangerous institution on earth. It turns the unremarkable, often dim, children of the wealthy into adults who are able to hide their innate stupidity behind a well-spoken veneer of self-confidence.

This discussion has been closed.