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  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    AndyJS said:

    "Stacey Dooley has challenged MP David Lammy after he said "the world does not need any more white saviours" following her Comic Relief posts from Africa."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47400300

    He should be suspended from the Labour party
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983

    Pulpstar said:

    "What the party needs now is someone with the ability to appeal to a broad base particularly many of the centre ground voters who have concerns about Trump."

    That worked so well for Hillary.

    Hillary had and has the problem of being a massive crook and the establishment personified. They need Klobuchar, as long as she hasn't got any charitable foundations doing 'things'
    Klobuchar has a minion terrorising problem !
    True but she's not as riddled with problems as the rest and isn't a non starter socialist
    Doesn't matter who they pick in reality, trump is a shoo in
    That last clause is an extremely depressing thought!
  • Options
    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. Labour still seen as sufficiently pro-Europe and the LD struggling to get Labour voters they will never win in a GE to vote LD on Europe.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Pulpstar said:

    "What the party needs now is someone with the ability to appeal to a broad base particularly many of the centre ground voters who have concerns about Trump."

    That worked so well for Hillary.

    Hillary had and has the problem of being a massive crook and the establishment personified. They need Klobuchar, as long as she hasn't got any charitable foundations doing 'things'
    Klobuchar has a minion terrorising problem !
    True but she's not as riddled with problems as the rest and isn't a non starter socialist
    Doesn't matter who they pick in reality, trump is a shoo in
    That last clause is an extremely depressing thought!
    It's also wrong.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Paul Flynn passed away on 17th February . His funeral will take place at Newport Cathedral on 22nd March.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,965
    Cyclefree said:

    brendan16 said:

    Another grooming gang sent down. Happened yesterday, but never heard about it:
    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1100795332424802305

    Its just 'local West Yorkshire' news - so not really of national interest.

    There are far more important things going on - the lead story in today's Standard is "Please stop 'influencing' on our doorsteps, Notting Hill residents tell 'unapologetic' Instagrammers". It even outranks the Dooley Lammy twitter spat.

    Richpeople in Notting Hill are important - poor girls in Bradford really aren't worthy of attention!

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/please-stop-influencing-on-our-doorsteps-notting-hill-residents-tell-unapologetic-social-media-a4078806.html
    Given that thousands of children are sexually abused each year, if two girls being abused were treated as national front page news then there would be literally nothing else on the front pages of newspapers for the rest of eternity, sadly. If we really wanted to help poor children, we would be funding our schools properly so they didn't have to close at lunchtime on Friday to save money.
    Well, maybe they ought to be on the front pages of our newspapers every day until we actually do something about it. Why shouldn't the suffering of thousands of girls and women in our country be the highest priority?
    Well, perhaps because the behaviour of a substantial minority of mostly men, across all races, classes and professions would hold up a truly horrific mirror to the state of society and inspire calls for fundamental changes in power relations across the board.
    Apart from that, nothing.
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    If only Lammy would take a pop at Lily Allen or Charlotte Church for their efforts on behalf of the less fortunate, then we'd have the marvellous prospect of the PB reactionaries lumbering to those ladies' defence. A boy can dream..
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Mr Lammy's expense history would suggest he believes charity begins at home.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,760

    Trivia

    My wife came across a menu card from a local restaurant and conference venue around 1972 and the prices stopped us in our tracks

    Afternoon tea 27p

    3 course meal 75p

    Difficult to realise that was the pricing 47 years ago

    I remember when chips were 20p and crisps were 5p.

    The "I like big butts but I cannot lie" song ("Baby got back") was released 27 years ago. It was made famous by an episode of Friends, an American sitcom whose first episode was 25 years ago. That first episode was in 1994 and the average price of a E&W house (not a flat) was around £50k.

    The Matrix is 20 years old this year, as is The Phantom Menace.

    Iron Man, one of the first Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, is eleven years old.

    Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister, left office 12 years ago.
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Cyclefree said:

    brendan16 said:

    Another grooming gang sent down. Happened yesterday, but never heard about it:
    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1100795332424802305

    Its just 'local West Yorkshire' news - so not really of national interest.

    There are far more important things going on - the lead story in today's Standard is "Please stop 'influencing' on our doorsteps, Notting Hill residents tell 'unapologetic' Instagrammers". It even outranks the Dooley Lammy twitter spat.

    Richpeople in Notting Hill are important - poor girls in Bradford really aren't worthy of attention!

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/please-stop-influencing-on-our-doorsteps-notting-hill-residents-tell-unapologetic-social-media-a4078806.html
    Given that thousands of children are sexually abused each year, if two girls being abused were treated as national front page news then there would be literally nothing else on the front pages of newspapers for the rest of eternity, sadly. If we really wanted to help poor children, we would be funding our schools properly so they didn't have to close at lunchtime on Friday to save money.
    Well, maybe they ought to be on the front pages of our newspapers every day until we actually do something about it. Why shouldn't the suffering of thousands of girls and women in our country be the highest priority?
    There is a regular slot on the news bulletins for a pointless update on the stock markets and foreign currency exchange rates. They could have a daily update on violent crime against women and girls instead.
    An update on missing children and people trafficking would be instructive. Then people might start asking who is trafficking them and to where
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    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    GIN1138 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I know Brexit and the US stuff is interesting, but what's everyones hot take on Stacey Dooley vs David Lammy ?


    I've thought it was time to pull the plug on Comic Relief for years... On the grounds that it is not funny! :D

    That said Lammy comes across as just another MP who has lost the plot and become totally unhinged since Brexit...
    I thought Lammy was an Alan Partridge style spoof . Is he really and MP?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RCtX03pT8Wc
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Anorak said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Who would have thought !

    EU migration falling rapidly and now replaced by non EU migration . So Brits lose their freedom of movement and immigration doesn’t fall overall but is replaced with countries that don’t offer us that reciprocity.

    Amazing how quiet Farage and the rest are now about immigration .

    Perhaps you'd like to reconcile this:

    Change in immigrants y/e Sep 2018 +318 thousand
    Change in immigrants working y/e Sep 2018 -141 thousand

    There is something seriously wrong somewhere.
    That’s because you’ve replaced productive EU nationals who work with lots who don’t from outside the EU . Family reunion makes up a lot of the non EU migration .
    Excellent work by the leavers stopping those sponging foreigners blocking-up our NHS. Buy yourself a beer, chaps. Pat yourselves on the back. Mission accomplished!
    The difference is that l, should we wish, we can elect a government that would tighten up on the chain migration rules. That wasn’t previously an option
  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Pulpstar said:

    "What the party needs now is someone with the ability to appeal to a broad base particularly many of the centre ground voters who have concerns about Trump."

    That worked so well for Hillary.

    Hillary had and has the problem of being a massive crook and the establishment personified. They need Klobuchar, as long as she hasn't got any charitable foundations doing 'things'
    Klobuchar has a minion terrorising problem !
    True but she's not as riddled with problems as the rest and isn't a non starter socialist
    Doesn't matter who they pick in reality, trump is a shoo in
    That last clause is an extremely depressing thought!
    Not really, he's very entertaining. And the war on the MSM is fascinating
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again
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    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    AndyJS said:
    I don't think it is unprecedented but has probably only occurred with the consent of Paul Flynn's family. Moreover, the fact that he had been incapacitated for several months and unable to attend Westminster adds a certain urgency to the need to hold the by election
    Very uncaring comment
    It is based on fact.Highly unlikely the writ would have been moved without family approval.
    You sound as if it's a business situation and it was an inconvenience he had not been able to attend the HOC
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Dooley and Lammy should go head to head on Comic Relief - 15 mins each and see who raises the most money.

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    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. Labour still seen as sufficiently pro-Europe and the LD struggling to get Labour voters they will never win in a GE to vote LD on Europe.
    It would be hilarious if Jeremy Corbyn manages to do what Tony Blair never succeeded in doing and win a European election. Tragic of course for many reasons, but also so very funny.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060
    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Can you get more coastal elite than someone who splits their time between Manhattan and Palm Beach?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    Netanyahu saving every shekel to fight indictment charges via advertising apparently !
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    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. Labour still seen as sufficiently pro-Europe and the LD struggling to get Labour voters they will never win in a GE to vote LD on Europe.
    It would be hilarious if Jeremy Corbyn manages to do what Tony Blair never succeeded in doing and win a European election. Tragic of course for many reasons, but also so very funny.
    This is totally hypothetical so I question the value of reading too much into it
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Fascinating story I'd completely missed. Not sure of the implications on Canadian politics.
    ttps://twitter.com/ezralevant/status/1100940359553699841 EDIT: I see Flashman beat me to it. This is a more concise read, though, if you're in a rush.

    That looks seriously bad for Trudeau, anyone running a book on him resigning?
    Trudeau's polling is holding up rather better than Trump's at the moment and the allegations against him are rather less on the whole than those made against the US President. I think the Liberals may lose their majority in the autumn but I would not be surprised to see Trudeau stay PM
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    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Charles said:

    Anorak said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Who would have thought !

    EU migration falling rapidly and now replaced by non EU migration . So Brits lose their freedom of movement and immigration doesn’t fall overall but is replaced with countries that don’t offer us that reciprocity.

    Amazing how quiet Farage and the rest are now about immigration .

    Perhaps you'd like to reconcile this:

    Change in immigrants y/e Sep 2018 +318 thousand
    Change in immigrants working y/e Sep 2018 -141 thousand

    There is something seriously wrong somewhere.
    That’s because you’ve replaced productive EU nationals who work with lots who don’t from outside the EU . Family reunion makes up a lot of the non EU migration .
    Excellent work by the leavers stopping those sponging foreigners blocking-up our NHS. Buy yourself a beer, chaps. Pat yourselves on the back. Mission accomplished!
    The difference is that l, should we wish, we can elect a government that would tighten up on the chain migration rules. That wasn’t previously an option
    Yes, it absolutely was previously an option to elect a government who would both take us out of the EU and tighten up on chain migration rules.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    AndyJS said:
    I don't think it is unprecedented but has probably only occurred with the consent of Paul Flynn's family. Moreover, the fact that he had been incapacitated for several months and unable to attend Westminster adds a certain urgency to the need to hold the by election
    Very uncaring comment
    It is based on fact.Highly unlikely the writ would have been moved without family approval.
    You sound as if it's a business situation and it was an inconvenience he had not been able to attend the HOC
    I am sorry you get that impression - though I hope you enjoy your 75th Birthday.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,760
    AndyJS said:

    "Stacey Dooley has challenged MP David Lammy after he said "the world does not need any more white saviours" following her Comic Relief posts from Africa."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47400300

    The world needs every bloody saviour it can get. There's a massive worldwide shortage of people who help.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Can you get more coastal elite than someone who splits their time between Manhattan and Palm Beach?
    Trump had rustbelt appeal and a populist message that resonated there, more so than any Republican since Reagan, hence he won Wisconsin for example for the first time for the GOP since Reagan in 1984.

    If the Democrats fail to get a candidate with a message that appeals to the rustbelt and instead have a candidate like Harris with a cultural left liberal message only Trump will likely win again
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    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    AndyJS said:

    "Stacey Dooley has challenged MP David Lammy after he said "the world does not need any more white saviours" following her Comic Relief posts from Africa."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47400300

    He should be suspended from the Labour party
    It seems odd that Labour wants to seemingly get into a row with a popular millennial presenter from BBC3 no less. What is the heinous crime? The wrong sort of charity. It’s like an episode of w1a
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Sanders has a good chance in a big and weakish field.
  • Options

    If only Lammy would take a pop at Lily Allen or Charlotte Church for their efforts on behalf of the less fortunate, then we'd have the marvellous prospect of the PB reactionaries lumbering to those ladies' defence. A boy can dream..

    And can we also have some retrospective condemnation of Boris, who was making Lammy's same point in his 'picanniny' article? Just for some balance like.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then, in my view they are the only candidates who can beat him, Biden especially.

    However had Sanders won just 1% more in Iowa he would have won the state and with New Hampshire too won the nomination in all likelihood, Hillary only scraped a victory then and Sanders has a more divided field against him this time not all the money and support behind one establishment candidate
  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Sanders has a good chance in a big and weakish field.
    In the unlikely event the Democrats select a socialist, an independent centrist will stand and trump will make 72 look a tight race
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    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Scott_P said:
    Loads of caveats as we are talking about only one poll which could well be an outlier (if we had other polls) but that is better for Labour and the Conservatives than I would have thought.

    If the European elections did happen in the UK (I don't think they will) both parties would be very happy with those results I imagine.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    viewcode said:

    Trivia

    My wife came across a menu card from a local restaurant and conference venue around 1972 and the prices stopped us in our tracks

    Afternoon tea 27p

    3 course meal 75p

    Difficult to realise that was the pricing 47 years ago

    I remember when chips were 20p and crisps were 5p.

    The "I like big butts but I cannot lie" song ("Baby got back") was released 27 years ago. It was made famous by an episode of Friends, an American sitcom whose first episode was 25 years ago. That first episode was in 1994 and the average price of a E&W house (not a flat) was around £50k.

    The Matrix is 20 years old this year, as is The Phantom Menace.

    Iron Man, one of the first Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, is eleven years old.

    Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister, left office 12 years ago.
    Someone born on 9/11 will be able to vote by the end of this year. Today’s new graduates don’t remember it.

    House music is now more than 30 years old. Number 1 in the summer of 1989 was ‘Ride On Time’ by Black Box.
  • Options

    If only Lammy would take a pop at Lily Allen or Charlotte Church for their efforts on behalf of the less fortunate, then we'd have the marvellous prospect of the PB reactionaries lumbering to those ladies' defence. A boy can dream..

    And can we also have some retrospective condemnation of Boris, who was making Lammy's same point in his 'picanniny' article? Just for some balance like.
    Wasn't it more a dig at Blair?

    It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving picaninnies; and one can imagine that Blair, twice victor abroad but enmired at home, is similarly seduced by foreign politeness. They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in Watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird.
    - Boris, in The Telegraph, 10/01/2002.
  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited February 2019

    Scott_P said:
    Loads of caveats as we are talking about only one poll which could well be an outlier (if we had other polls) but that is better for Labour and the Conservatives than I would have thought.

    If the European elections did happen in the UK (I don't think they will) both parties would be very happy with those results I imagine.
    It is quite old - having been conducted in mid- January.
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Scott_P said:
    People might question why they have given him 3 years if he still has convincing to do. It's almost as if the threat of implosion and loss of income has made them act, but I'm sure they are honourable people. They are establishment politicians after all
  • Options
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    AndyJS said:
    I don't think it is unprecedented but has probably only occurred with the consent of Paul Flynn's family. Moreover, the fact that he had been incapacitated for several months and unable to attend Westminster adds a certain urgency to the need to hold the by election
    Very uncaring comment
    It is based on fact.Highly unlikely the writ would have been moved without family approval.
    You sound as if it's a business situation and it was an inconvenience he had not been able to attend the HOC
    I am sorry you get that impression - though I hope you enjoy your 75th Birthday.
    Thanks Justin. For 75 years been trying to figure out which day it is when it is not a leap year

    I hired a car in Cape Town on the 1st March 2011 and my licence was 50 years old that day
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    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's going well isn't it? Seems it took 3 attempts to get Jezza to suspend Williamson.

    We can only wonder how many MPs threatened to walk over this via the Chief Whip/Deputy.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    Charles said:

    Anorak said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Who would have thought !

    EU migration falling rapidly and now replaced by non EU migration . So Brits lose their freedom of movement and immigration doesn’t fall overall but is replaced with countries that don’t offer us that reciprocity.

    Amazing how quiet Farage and the rest are now about immigration .

    Perhaps you'd like to reconcile this:

    Change in immigrants y/e Sep 2018 +318 thousand
    Change in immigrants working y/e Sep 2018 -141 thousand

    There is something seriously wrong somewhere.
    That’s because you’ve replaced productive EU nationals who work with lots who don’t from outside the EU . Family reunion makes up a lot of the non EU migration .
    Excellent work by the leavers stopping those sponging foreigners blocking-up our NHS. Buy yourself a beer, chaps. Pat yourselves on the back. Mission accomplished!
    The difference is that l, should we wish, we can elect a government that would tighten up on the chain migration rules. That wasn’t previously an option
    One that prioritises spouses above distant family members. Pretty please.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    If you think he's really a 1-10 shot ("Shoo in/certain") then you should have 85% of your betting bank on at general odds of 2-1 according to the Kelly criterion.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    AndyJS said:
    I don't think it is unprecedented but has probably only occurred with the consent of Paul Flynn's family. Moreover, the fact that he had been incapacitated for several months and unable to attend Westminster adds a certain urgency to the need to hold the by election
    Very uncaring comment
    It is based on fact.Highly unlikely the writ would have been moved without family approval.
    You sound as if it's a business situation and it was an inconvenience he had not been able to attend the HOC
    I am sorry you get that impression - though I hope you enjoy your 75th Birthday.
    Thanks Justin. For 75 years been trying to figure out which day it is when it is not a leap year

    I hired a car in Cape Town on the 1st March 2011 and my licence was 50 years old that day
    I recall the date because my first niece was born on 29th February 1984 - so you are 40 years her senior!
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    Well, that's going well isn't it? Seems it took 3 attempts to get Jezza to suspend Williamson.

    Jezza resistant because he wanted Williamson in the shadow cabinet.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    viewcode said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Stacey Dooley has challenged MP David Lammy after he said "the world does not need any more white saviours" following her Comic Relief posts from Africa."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47400300

    The world needs every bloody saviour it can get. There's a massive worldwide shortage of people who help.
    I couldn't agree more. Lammy's comments were ridiculous.
  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    If you think he's really a 1-10 shot ("Shoo in/certain") then you should have 85% of your betting bank on at general odds of 2-1 according to the Kelly criterion.
    I have a bet on him, I'm not looking to make a living out if it
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Scott_P said:
    UKIP on 10% in a Euro election looks questionable.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    Beware cheap imitations. Send THE Geoffrey Cox......
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    Trump was very lucky winning in important States by tiny amounts - and of course losing the popular vote, so I don't agree that it's certain. The Dems do need to choose their candidate carefully and should go for electability above all else.
  • Options
    Andrew said:


    Well, that's going well isn't it? Seems it took 3 attempts to get Jezza to suspend Williamson.

    Jezza resistant because he wanted Williamson in the shadow cabinet.
    God help us all.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    AndyJS said:

    viewcode said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Stacey Dooley has challenged MP David Lammy after he said "the world does not need any more white saviours" following her Comic Relief posts from Africa."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47400300

    The world needs every bloody saviour it can get. There's a massive worldwide shortage of people who help.
    I couldn't agree more. Lammy's comments were ridiculous.
    And racist.
  • Options
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    AndyJS said:
    I don't think it is unprecedented but has probably only occurred with the consent of Paul Flynn's family. Moreover, the fact that he had been incapacitated for several months and unable to attend Westminster adds a certain urgency to the need to hold the by election
    Very uncaring comment
    It is based on fact.Highly unlikely the writ would have been moved without family approval.
    You sound as if it's a business situation and it was an inconvenience he had not been able to attend the HOC
    I am sorry you get that impression - though I hope you enjoy your 75th Birthday.
    Thanks Justin. For 75 years been trying to figure out which day it is when it is not a leap year

    I hired a car in Cape Town on the 1st March 2011 and my licence was 50 years old that day
    I recall the date because my first niece was born on 29th February 1984 - so you are 40 years her senior!
    That is interesting and I qualify for a free tv licence from tomorrow but to be fair, my dear wife, is 4 years older, so we have received that benefit for a while
  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    Trump was very lucky winning in important States by tiny amounts - and of course losing the popular vote, so I don't agree that it's certain. The Dems do need to choose their candidate carefully and should go for electability above all else.
    Lucky to some, precisely targetted to others
  • Options
    Scott_P said:
    I liked Watson's initial response on R4 this morning when asked if Corbyn was fit to be PM.

    "Look, he could easily be PM"

    Sounds more like a threat than a reassurance!
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:
    UKIP on 10% in a Euro election looks questionable.
    How many of their candidates elected as UKIP in 2014 are still UKIP MEPs?
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    The Dems best chance is for Trump to agree not to stand in return for parking any investigation.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    edited February 2019

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Sanders has a good chance in a big and weakish field.
    In the unlikely event the Democrats select a socialist, an independent centrist will stand and trump will make 72 look a tight race
    Not quite true, even with a centrist Schulz standing it is Trump 45% Sanders 43% Schultz 7%, Trump 45% Harris 43% Schultz 7% and Biden still beats Trump 49% to 44% with Scultz on 3%

    https://docsend.com/view/sxumns7
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    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Trivia

    My wife came across a menu card from a local restaurant and conference venue around 1972 and the prices stopped us in our tracks

    Afternoon tea 27p

    3 course meal 75p

    Difficult to realise that was the pricing 47 years ago

    I remember when chips were 20p and crisps were 5p.

    The "I like big butts but I cannot lie" song ("Baby got back") was released 27 years ago. It was made famous by an episode of Friends, an American sitcom whose first episode was 25 years ago. That first episode was in 1994 and the average price of a E&W house (not a flat) was around £50k.

    The Matrix is 20 years old this year, as is The Phantom Menace.

    Iron Man, one of the first Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, is eleven years old.

    Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister, left office 12 years ago.
    Someone born on 9/11 will be able to vote by the end of this year. Today’s new graduates don’t remember it.

    House music is now more than 30 years old. Number 1 in the summer of 1989 was ‘Ride On Time’ by Black Box.

    The song was written and produced by the Italian production team Groove Groove Melody, consisting of DJ Daniele Davoli, programmer Mirko Limoni and musician Valerio Semplici. The team worked with French model Katrin Quinol, who was the face and image for the group Black Box.[7] In the video and in live performances Quinol lip-synced to the original vocals.[8]
    The song sampled Loleatta Holloway's 1980 disco hit "Love Sensation" (written by Dan Hartman) and attracted some controversy for the uncredited use of Holloway's vocals from that song.[9] Holloway's counsel engaged in a press attack on Black Box, successfully securing a settlement that paid the singer an undisclosed sum; the group had legally cleared the samples with Salsoul Records, who had released the original track, but Holloway was in arrears for advances from the label and thus was not recompensed by Salsoul.
    A re-recording of the song with uncredited vocals by Heather Small was released in the second week of September 1989, and the original Holloway version was discontinued from distribution.[10] This version was released as the "UK Remix" and contained the same three mixes as the original, but with Heather Small's vocals in place of Loleatta Holloway. The Original Mix, Garage Trip Mix and Pianopella Mix became Massive Mix, Epsom Mix and Ascot Mix respectively.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ride_on_Time

  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Sanders has a good chance in a big and weakish field.
    In the unlikely event the Democrats select a socialist, an independent centrist will stand and trump will make 72 look a tight race
    Not quite true, even with a centrist Schulz standing it is Trump 45% Sanders 43% Trump 45% Harris 43% and Biden still beats Trump 49% to 43%
    I expect the numbers to move drastically obviously, as they usually do from mid term to election
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,810

    Beware cheap imitations. Send THE Geoffrey Cox......
    Don't send THE Geoffrey Cox, send Ian McNiece, playing as Bert Large from Doc Martin .in a scene where that character has to impersonate Churchill. Or Churchill playing Bert Large. Either way, that should do it.
  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    The Dems best chance is for Trump to agree not to stand in return for parking any investigation.

    When Mueller comes up blank/only prosecutes a few process crimes, the continuing investigations are going to start looking decidedly iffy. And don't forget Trump still has to declassify details of the FISA requests to spy on him during the election which appear to be the basis of Mueller - the document paid for by Hillarys campaign.
    Now I could be wrong, but I expect things to look very different by the end of this year, investigations can be conducted both ways
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Sanders has a good chance in a big and weakish field.
    In the unlikely event the Democrats select a socialist, an independent centrist will stand and trump will make 72 look a tight race
    Not quite true, even with a centrist Schulz standing it is Trump 45% Sanders 43% Trump 45% Harris 43% and Biden still beats Trump 49% to 43%
    I expect the numbers to move drastically obviously, as they usually do from mid term to election
    In 2004 Bush actually did worse than he was at in 2002 so depends, 2012 was also a tight race, the US is a 50 50 nation and it will be close regardless, half the US loathes Trump as much as the other half loves him. Biden is still the Democrats best bet to beat him
  • Options

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    The Dems best chance is for Trump to agree not to stand in return for parking any investigation.

    When Mueller comes up blank/only prosecutes a few process crimes, the continuing investigations are going to start looking decidedly iffy. And don't forget Trump still has to declassify details of the FISA requests to spy on him during the election which appear to be the basis of Mueller - the document paid for by Hillarys campaign.
    Now I could be wrong, but I expect things to look very different by the end of this year, investigations can be conducted both ways
    You surely mean 'If' rather than 'When'.
    Mueller has been rather good at his job so far and the investigation has been remarkably leak-proof.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    Trump was very lucky winning in important States by tiny amounts - and of course losing the popular vote, so I don't agree that it's certain. The Dems do need to choose their candidate carefully and should go for electability above all else.
    What does "electability" mean in the current political environment? It's certainly changed compared to some years ago.

    I fear the scenario where the Democrats pick a Presidential candidate in terms of what they believe to be their superior electability, but that times have moved on and they were using the wrong criteria to judge electability.
  • Options

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    The Dems best chance is for Trump to agree not to stand in return for parking any investigation.

    When Mueller comes up blank/only prosecutes a few process crimes, the continuing investigations are going to start looking decidedly iffy. And don't forget Trump still has to declassify details of the FISA requests to spy on him during the election which appear to be the basis of Mueller - the document paid for by Hillarys campaign.
    Now I could be wrong, but I expect things to look very different by the end of this year, investigations can be conducted both ways
    What do you mean the document paid by the Clinton campaign?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    edited February 2019

    AndyJS said:

    viewcode said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Stacey Dooley has challenged MP David Lammy after he said "the world does not need any more white saviours" following her Comic Relief posts from Africa."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47400300

    The world needs every bloody saviour it can get. There's a massive worldwide shortage of people who help.
    I couldn't agree more. Lammy's comments were ridiculous.
    And racist.
    Not ridiculous, nor racist. Putting into layman's terms what others have said more formally:

    ​https://amazon.co.uk/White-Mans-Burden-Efforts-Little/dp/0199226113/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1551360326&sr=1-1&keywords=william+easterly

    ​https://amazon.co.uk/War-Games-Story-Modern-Times/dp/0670919772/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1551360536&sr=1-1&keywords=linda+polman

    https://amazon.co.uk/Economics-International-Development-Readings-Political/dp/0255367317/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1551360677&sr=1-4&keywords=william+easterly

    https://amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_11?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the+bottom+billion&sprefix=the+bottom+%2Cstripbooks%2C123&crid=7LWQASOQI9RH

    tl;dr them all? If aid worked, why was poverty not eradicated decades ago? Why are people still collecting money (from you) for $2 mosquito nets (https://charity-gifts.christianaid.org.uk/products/mosquito-nets) if all it took to eradicate malaria in sub-Saharan Africa was mosquito nets and why hasn't malaria been eradicated there?

    As they say, aid is a way of channelling money from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries.

    Edit: and Stacey Dooley traipsing off to Africa reminds me of Mother Theresa's (probably apocryphal) words to one donor who went to India to present her with a cheque: "why didn't you send me the cheque by post and include the cost of your airfare?"
  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    The Dems best chance is for Trump to agree not to stand in return for parking any investigation.

    When Mueller comes up blank/only prosecutes a few process crimes, the continuing investigations are going to start looking decidedly iffy. And don't forget Trump still has to declassify details of the FISA requests to spy on him during the election which appear to be the basis of Mueller - the document paid for by Hillarys campaign.
    Now I could be wrong, but I expect things to look very different by the end of this year, investigations can be conducted both ways
    You surely mean 'If' rather than 'When'.
    Mueller has been rather good at his job so far and the investigation has been remarkably leak-proof.
    No, I mean when, there is no indication from anywhere that there is any proof of collusion, and most hints are at an underwhelming report. Nobody has been indicted on any crime related to collusion with Russia and even wingnuts like Schiff are now saying they will investigate everything and anything else which is getting a but desperate. Cohen yesterday in his hatchet job even said he had no evidence of any collision amidst his shit stirring and insinuation to try and get a reduced sentence. He ended up with another criminal investigation into him for his troubles
  • Options

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    The Dems best chance is for Trump to agree not to stand in return for parking any investigation.

    When Mueller comes up blank/only prosecutes a few process crimes, the continuing investigations are going to start looking decidedly iffy. And don't forget Trump still has to declassify details of the FISA requests to spy on him during the election which appear to be the basis of Mueller - the document paid for by Hillarys campaign.
    Now I could be wrong, but I expect things to look very different by the end of this year, investigations can be conducted both ways
    What do you mean the document paid by the Clinton campaign?
    In the spring of 2016, Orbis Business Intelligence—a small investigative-research firm that Steele and a partner had founded, in 2009, after leaving M.I.6, Britain’s Secret Intelligence Service—had agreed to do opposition research on Trump’s murky relationship with Russia. Under the arrangement, Orbis was a subcontractor working for Fusion GPS, a private research firm in Washington. Fusion, in turn, had been contracted by a law firm, Perkins Coie, which represented both Hillary Clinton’s Presidential campaign and the Democratic National Committee. Several months after Steele signed the deal, he learned that, through this chain, his research was being jointly subsidized by the Clinton campaign and the D.N.C. In all, Steele was paid a hundred and sixty-eight thousand dollars for his work.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/12/christopher-steele-the-man-behind-the-trump-dossier
  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    The Dems best chance is for Trump to agree not to stand in return for parking any investigation.

    When Mueller comes up blank/only prosecutes a few process crimes, the continuing investigations are going to start looking decidedly iffy. And don't forget Trump still has to declassify details of the FISA requests to spy on him during the election which appear to be the basis of Mueller - the document paid for by Hillarys campaign.
    Now I could be wrong, but I expect things to look very different by the end of this year, investigations can be conducted both ways
    What do you mean the document paid by the Clinton campaign?
    The fusion GPS/Steele dossier - which is confirmed to be conducted on behalf of fusions clients by Podesta etc
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    edited February 2019
    TOPPING said:


    tl;dr them all? If aid worked, why was poverty not eradicated decades ago? Why are people still collecting money (from you) for $2 mosquito nets (https://charity-gifts.christianaid.org.uk/products/mosquito-nets) if all it took to eradicate malaria in sub-Saharan Africa was mosquito nets and why hasn't malaria been eradicated there?

    There's a very funny (and very inappropriate) joke by Jimmy Carr on the subject of mosquito nets.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060

    Beware cheap imitations. Send THE Geoffrey Cox......
    THE Geoffrey Cox says the backstop is a trap, but A Geoffrey Cox says it’s fine. Who to believe?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    edited February 2019

    Beware cheap imitations. Send THE Geoffrey Cox......
    THE Geoffrey Cox says the backstop is a trap, but A Geoffrey Cox says it’s fine. Who to believe?
    Arlene Foster. They should have sent her to Brussels too.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    @Topping

    Why use the word 'white' Lammy has form on this -

    Remember when he suggested 'white upper-class man' should not have been hired to lead the glenfell tower inquiry.

    If a white Tory MP used the word 'black' in these two instances ,he would be finished.

    It seems ethnic minority racism is ok in some quarters .
  • Options
    He (David Lammy) was also later confronted on ITV's This Morning about snubbing Comic Relief's Africa invitation and said: 'I don't accept that. Comic Relief wanted me to be part of their PR machine and I'm not prepared to do that.
  • Options
    I got my letter today from the Danish Ministry of the Interior that I will be able to vote in the EU Parliament election and all municipal elections in the event of no deal - I'm not sure what value Costa's amendment really has as I think no EU country has mentioned treating UK citizens as 3rd country citizens from 29 March.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298

    @Topping

    Why use the word 'white' Lammy has form on this -

    Remember when he suggested 'white upper-class man' should not have been hired to lead the glenfell tower inquiry.

    If a white Tory MP used the word 'black' in these two instances ,he would be finished.

    It seems ethnic minority racism is ok in some quarters .

    ish. As I mentioned, there is a formal school of developmental economics which recognises the role of the "white man's burden" in aid. Because there is a history of the white man "saving" Africa, or trying to. And this continues today, whether it be Bill & Melinda Gates's malaria foundation or our Stace.

    Lammy was being clumsy and ignorant but his premise has validity.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,334

    Scott_P said:
    Loads of caveats as we are talking about only one poll which could well be an outlier (if we had other polls) but that is better for Labour and the Conservatives than I would have thought.

    If the European elections did happen in the UK (I don't think they will) both parties would be very happy with those results I imagine.
    Yes, quite curious. Perhaps hard Brexiteers feel they'd just sit the damn thing out.
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    @Topping

    Why use the word 'white' Lammy has form on this -

    Remember when he suggested 'white upper-class man' should not have been hired to lead the glenfell tower inquiry.

    If a white Tory MP used the word 'black' in these two instances ,he would be finished.

    It seems ethnic minority racism is ok in some quarters .

    ish. As I mentioned, there is a formal school of developmental economics which recognises the role of the "white man's burden" in aid. Because there is a history of the white man "saving" Africa, or trying to. And this continues today, whether it be Bill & Melinda Gates's malaria foundation or our Stace.

    Lammy was being clumsy and ignorant but his premise has validity.
    I think you're being racist in preferring to see black people starve rather than be helped.
  • Options

    @Topping

    Why use the word 'white' Lammy has form on this -

    Remember when he suggested 'white upper-class man' should not have been hired to lead the glenfell tower inquiry.

    If a white Tory MP used the word 'black' in these two instances ,he would be finished.

    It seems ethnic minority racism is ok in some quarters .

    Remember, only white people can be racist in "PC World"!
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:


    tl;dr them all? If aid worked, why was poverty not eradicated decades ago? Why are people still collecting money (from you) for $2 mosquito nets (https://charity-gifts.christianaid.org.uk/products/mosquito-nets) if all it took to eradicate malaria in sub-Saharan Africa was mosquito nets and why hasn't malaria been eradicated there?

    There's a very funny (and very inappropriate) joke by Jimmy Carr on the subject of mosquito nets.
    googling now....
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    And for the record I don't wholly disagree with Lammy. You don't have to be an extreme Easterly or Polman fan to critique the west's aid efforts over the years.

    Ian Birrell has written at lengthy about the appalling nature of some aid projects, and the appalling behaviour of some aid workers, but that doesn't seem to be Lammy's point.
    I actually only saw the bullet points that he said it is in some ways racist for a white person to be seen saving a poor black person.

    Not much to disagree with there.
    I'd rather be racist and help someone, than ignore them in order to be anti-racist.
    If I may say that betrays a naivety about aid. Would you pay off Al Shabab in order to give food to some IDPs?
    That's a difficult dilemma, very much a choice of evils.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:


    tl;dr them all? If aid worked, why was poverty not eradicated decades ago? Why are people still collecting money (from you) for $2 mosquito nets (https://charity-gifts.christianaid.org.uk/products/mosquito-nets) if all it took to eradicate malaria in sub-Saharan Africa was mosquito nets and why hasn't malaria been eradicated there?

    There's a very funny (and very inappropriate) joke by Jimmy Carr on the subject of mosquito nets.
    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1146567-if-only-africa-had-more-mosquito-nets-then-every-year
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836

    Scott_P said:
    Loads of caveats as we are talking about only one poll which could well be an outlier (if we had other polls) but that is better for Labour and the Conservatives than I would have thought.

    If the European elections did happen in the UK (I don't think they will) both parties would be very happy with those results I imagine.
    I think the Conservatives and Labour would poll far less, in practice.
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Loads of caveats as we are talking about only one poll which could well be an outlier (if we had other polls) but that is better for Labour and the Conservatives than I would have thought.

    If the European elections did happen in the UK (I don't think they will) both parties would be very happy with those results I imagine.
    I think the Conservatives and Labour would poll far less, in practice.
    Agreed, it's a free pass to bash the big two
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Loads of caveats as we are talking about only one poll which could well be an outlier (if we had other polls) but that is better for Labour and the Conservatives than I would have thought.

    If the European elections did happen in the UK (I don't think they will) both parties would be very happy with those results I imagine.
    I think the Conservatives and Labour would poll far less, in practice.
    Farage would be back with his Brexit Party, and there's a good chance of the TIG team registering a party if the EU elections go ahead.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    edited February 2019
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    And for the record I don't wholly disagree with Lammy. You don't have to be an extreme Easterly or Polman fan to critique the west's aid efforts over the years.

    Ian Birrell has written at lengthy about the appalling nature of some aid projects, and the appalling behaviour of some aid workers, but that doesn't seem to be Lammy's point.
    I actually only saw the bullet points that he said it is in some ways racist for a white person to be seen saving a poor black person.

    Not much to disagree with there.
    I'd rather be racist and help someone, than ignore them in order to be anti-racist.
    If I may say that betrays a naivety about aid. Would you pay off Al Shabab in order to give food to some IDPs?
    That's a difficult dilemma, very much a choice of evils.
    Indeed - or perhaps google the Goma refugee camp after the Rwandan crisis, or here, I've saved you the trouble - https://independent.co.uk/news/world/hutus-keep-on-killing-tutsis-in-goma-camp-robert-block-in-goma-finds-rwandas-genocidal-conflict-is-1416473.html.

    People were bringing aid to the camp which in effect had become the Hutu's HQ from where they continued attacks on the Tutsis.

    To say nothing of course about that poster child of misused aid, Live Aid. https://spin.com/featured/live-aid-the-terrible-truth-ethiopia-bob-geldof-feature/

    My point being Lammy may or may not be aware of these events but there is nothing wrong with criticising white western luvvies going over to Africa to be photographed with fly-covered black children.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,995
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Anorak said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Who would have thought !

    EU migration falling rapidly and now replaced by non EU migration . So Brits lose their freedom of movement and immigration doesn’t fall overall but is replaced with countries that don’t offer us that reciprocity.

    Amazing how quiet Farage and the rest are now about immigration .

    Perhaps you'd like to reconcile this:

    Change in immigrants y/e Sep 2018 +318 thousand
    Change in immigrants working y/e Sep 2018 -141 thousand

    There is something seriously wrong somewhere.
    That’s because you’ve replaced productive EU nationals who work with lots who don’t from outside the EU . Family reunion makes up a lot of the non EU migration .
    Excellent work by the leavers stopping those sponging foreigners blocking-up our NHS. Buy yourself a beer, chaps. Pat yourselves on the back. Mission accomplished!
    The difference is that l, should we wish, we can elect a government that would tighten up on the chain migration rules. That wasn’t previously an option
    One that prioritises spouses above distant family members. Pretty please.
    It doesn't matter what the rules or priorities are because the Home Office either don't understand them, apply them selectively or just ignore them. They oscillate between incompetently cruel and cruelly incompetent.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Beware cheap imitations. Send THE Geoffrey Cox......
    THE Geoffrey Cox says the backstop is a trap, but A Geoffrey Cox says it’s fine. Who to believe?
    I presume that the former is negotiating THE Customs Union, and the latter is concentrating his efforts on A Customs Union?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    The Dems best chance is for Trump to agree not to stand in return for parking any investigation.

    When Mueller comes up blank/only prosecutes a few process crimes, the continuing investigations are going to start looking decidedly iffy. And don't forget Trump still has to declassify details of the FISA requests to spy on him during the election which appear to be the basis of Mueller - the document paid for by Hillarys campaign.
    Now I could be wrong, but I expect things to look very different by the end of this year, investigations can be conducted both ways
    You surely mean 'If' rather than 'When'.
    Mueller has been rather good at his job so far and the investigation has been remarkably leak-proof.
    Unless there isn't actually anything incriminating on Trump to leak....

    (Not saying that's the case. Just that it is possible. It certainly helps terrify witnesses if they THINK tha Mueller has dirt on the President that will drag them down too - unless they plea bargain.)
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    @Topping

    Why use the word 'white' Lammy has form on this -

    Remember when he suggested 'white upper-class man' should not have been hired to lead the glenfell tower inquiry.

    If a white Tory MP used the word 'black' in these two instances ,he would be finished.

    It seems ethnic minority racism is ok in some quarters .

    Remember, only white people can be racist in "PC World"!
    Don't I know it Sunil,the number of racist abuse/attacks on me and my family doesn't count.
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    And for the record I don't wholly disagree with Lammy. You don't have to be an extreme Easterly or Polman fan to critique the west's aid efforts over the years.

    Ian Birrell has written at lengthy about the appalling nature of some aid projects, and the appalling behaviour of some aid workers, but that doesn't seem to be Lammy's point.
    I actually only saw the bullet points that he said it is in some ways racist for a white person to be seen saving a poor black person.

    Not much to disagree with there.
    I'd rather be racist and help someone, than ignore them in order to be anti-racist.
    If I may say that betrays a naivety about aid. Would you pay off Al Shabab in order to give food to some IDPs?
    That's a difficult dilemma, very much a choice of evils.
    Indeed - or perhaps google the Goma refugee camp after the Rwandan crisis, or here, I've saved you the trouble - https://independent.co.uk/news/world/hutus-keep-on-killing-tutsis-in-goma-camp-robert-block-in-goma-finds-rwandas-genocidal-conflict-is-1416473.html.

    People were bringing aid to the camp which in effect had become the Hutu's HQ from where they continued attacks on the Tutsis.

    To say nothing of course about that poster child of misused aid, Live Aid. https://spin.com/featured/live-aid-the-terrible-truth-ethiopia-bob-geldof-feature/

    My point being Lammy may or may not be aware of these events but there is nothing wrong with criticising white western luvvies going over to Africa to be photographed with fly-covered black children.
    Lammy is obviously not the sharpest tool but his judgement here seems particularly awful. Stacey Dooley at least has some credibility as a film-maker and is certainly no luvvie, You could understand better if he had gone after Eddie Redmayne last year. He's completely misjudged his target and people will just use this as another example of how out of touch Labour MPs are.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    edited February 2019
    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    And for the record I don't wholly disagree with Lammy. You don't have to be an extreme Easterly or Polman fan to critique the west's aid efforts over the years.

    Ian Birrell has written at lengthy about the appalling nature of some aid projects, and the appalling behaviour of some aid workers, but that doesn't seem to be Lammy's point.
    I actually only saw the bullet points that he said it is in some ways racist for a white person to be seen saving a poor black person.

    Not much to disagree with there.
    I'd rather be racist and help someone, than ignore them in order to be anti-racist.
    If I may say that betrays a naivety about aid. Would you pay off Al Shabab in order to give food to some IDPs?
    That's a difficult dilemma, very much a choice of evils.
    Indeed - or perhaps google the Goma refugee camp after the Rwandan crisis, or here, I've saved you the trouble - https://independent.co.uk/news/world/hutus-keep-on-killing-tutsis-in-goma-camp-robert-block-in-goma-finds-rwandas-genocidal-conflict-is-1416473.html.

    People were bringing aid to the camp which in effect had become the Hutu's HQ from where they continued attacks on the Tutsis.

    To say nothing of course about that poster child of misused aid, Live Aid. https://spin.com/featured/live-aid-the-terrible-truth-ethiopia-bob-geldof-feature/

    My point being Lammy may or may not be aware of these events but there is nothing wrong with criticising white western luvvies going over to Africa to be photographed with fly-covered black children.
    Lammy is obviously not the sharpest tool but his judgement here seems particularly awful. Stacey Dooley at least has some credibility as a film-maker and is certainly no luvvie, You could understand better if he had gone after Eddie Redmayne last year. He's completely misjudged his target and people will just use this as another example of how out of touch Labour MPs are.
    That is a fair point. I must say I don't know Stace's oeuvre so I can't comment but yes I do remember clips during Strictly of her prancing off with a camera somewhere, dressed in combats.

    But his broader point, ie Comic Relief is deeply problematic, is I believe valid.
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited February 2019


    The fusion GPS/Steele dossier - which is confirmed to be conducted on behalf of fusions clients by Podesta etc

    It was - but before Trump became the candidate it was funded by conservatives.

    That dossier has also proven to be very accurate.

This discussion has been closed.