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  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IanB2 said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    And even more bizarrely, they have blown it up for a Brexit ideal that they did not themselves personally believe in or argue for two years ago. They have hardened as time passes, whipping each other into more and more ridiculous positions.
    What are you talking about?

    Two years ago who was talking about the backstop? The deal was rejected because the EU didn't compromise on the backstop, the deal would have passed with a backstop compromise. Two years ago that wasn't an issue so you're not making much sense.
    The ultras were always going to find some way to vote against any real world approach to Brexit. Their whole mindset is to oppose, never to propose.
    There are only 8 ultras in the Tory Party who voted against the Brady Amendment.
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276

    DavidL said:

    If May goes back to the EU, asks for more time, but doesn't have a credible strategy of how the extension might break the deadlock, how likely will it be that the EU will take a collective deep breath and say 'sorry, but we need certainty and stability before upcoming elections and we'll take the economic hit. Good buy and best of British'

    It seems as if the EU are in the driving seat now. Either we vote for Christmas, or the EU forces Christmas on March 29...

    Then we revoke. This is not an unlikely scenario.
    But who revokes? Surely if the EU turns around and doesn't grant an extension, there would need to be a vote to revoke. I guess you are saying there is a majority in the HoC for revoke?

    We'd see a resurgent UKIP, that's for sure...
    There will definitely be a majority for revoke if the alternative is no deal.
    But it requires an executive willing to carry out the request from Parliament of course; she might just ignore it.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Sean_F said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    The ERG will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    Thanks, fuckwits.
    The incredible thing is that they went along with May for over two years before they had their tantrum.

    The time to argue was back in 2016.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited March 2019

    A satisfactory day’s betting. My only regret is that there weren’t more Tory nutters.

    It's rare that one underestimates the numbers of Tory nutters.

    I see I was not far off in predicting the vote. I hope that hereon out we can dispense with the fictions and refer to people who want Brexits which are not on offer from the EU (which are the only way we get a deal) or a no Brexit they know does not have support in parliament, for what they are: Remainers. Rees-Mogg and co might protest at the label, but that's what they are now, facilitators of Remain. The attempt to paint those who would actually have us legally out the door at least as more remainy than those who cloak themselves in fine Brexity words but who object to actually seeing Brexit through, should not stand.

    Relative of mine thinks MPs who prevent Brexit should be arrested and charged with treason. I cannot say they were much persuaded by my point that the referendum was not legally binding and MPs can do what they want, and fortunately for MPs they had never voted before the referendum and now say they won't ever again, but it's sad to see someone who was finally convinced to vote intending to never do it again. Yes, it's an anecdote, whatever. And no, they did not support the deal, they hated it, they would prefer no deal, but would at least like some Brexit.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    And even more bizarrely, they have blown it up for a Brexit ideal that they did not themselves personally believe in or argue for two years ago. They have hardened as time passes, whipping each other into more and more ridiculous positions.
    What are you talking about?

    Two years ago who was talking about the backstop? The deal was rejected because the EU didn't compromise on the backstop, the deal would have passed with a backstop compromise. Two years ago that wasn't an issue so you're not making much sense.
    The backstop was the compromise.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    DavidL said:

    If the Commons has a whopping majority against leaving with no deal, the Govt says well there's no better deal out there then presumably the logical next step of the Govt is to ask for an extension in order to either have another referendum and/or to put a vote to the commons for revocation of article 50 asap?

    The options TMay laid out after losing tonight only lead one way? I don't see Brexit happening now.

    No its over and the anti-democrats have won. May will be directed to revoke Article 50 within the next few days.
    Better than this deal.

    If so we get a new PM and then they can invoked A50 again and this time plan all along for No Deal if we can't get an acceptable one, as this PM should have done from the start.
    Who's going to be the new PM to invoke A50 ?

    I don't see many of the ERG willing to step up and face some reality, take some responsibility and do some work.
    There are a lot of thick Brexiters in Parliament and a few more on here. Mr Thompson is one of them.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    If all Tory MPs had loyally backed their Government the MV would have passed tonight.

    By one vote.

    Yes, but being politicians they only see the mandate they wish to see!

    I have got to the point of being utterly sick to death of this process. I can well understand why MPs would not want the deal as it leaves the UK with No teeth and subservient to the EU. At least if we are in the EU, we have some impact on the institutions...
    Precisely.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    DavidL said:

    If May goes back to the EU, asks for more time, but doesn't have a credible strategy of how the extension might break the deadlock, how likely will it be that the EU will take a collective deep breath and say 'sorry, but we need certainty and stability before upcoming elections and we'll take the economic hit. Good buy and best of British'

    It seems as if the EU are in the driving seat now. Either we vote for Christmas, or the EU forces Christmas on March 29...

    Then we revoke. This is not an unlikely scenario.
    But who revokes? Surely if the EU turns around and doesn't grant an extension, there would need to be a vote to revoke. I guess you are saying there is a majority in the HoC for revoke?

    We'd see a resurgent UKIP, that's for sure...
    There will definitely be a majority for revoke if the alternative is no deal.
    That will require a lot of MPs to actively vote against the referendum result and the manifestos on which they were elected, will have to explain to their constituents and parties why they’ve done so.

    Up until now, a lot of Remainers have been very careful to avoid explicitly stating that they wish to overturn the referendum in Parliament.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    If the Commons has a whopping majority against leaving with no deal, the Govt says well there's no better deal out there then presumably the logical next step of the Govt is to ask for an extension in order to either have another referendum and/or to put a vote to the commons for revocation of article 50 asap?

    The options TMay laid out after losing tonight only lead one way? I don't see Brexit happening now.

    No its over and the anti-democrats have won. May will be directed to revoke Article 50 within the next few days.
    Better than this deal.

    If so we get a new PM and then they can invoked A50 again and this time plan all along for No Deal if we can't get an acceptable one, as this PM should have done from the start.
    Who's going to be the new PM to invoke A50 ?

    I don't see many of the ERG willing to step up and face some reality, take some responsibility and do some work.
    There are a lot of thick Brexiters in Parliament and a few more on here. Mr Thompson is one of them.
    I'm not thick, I have a principled objection to the backstop. And I don't view Brexit as more important than that.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    DavidL said:

    If the Commons has a whopping majority against leaving with no deal, the Govt says well there's no better deal out there then presumably the logical next step of the Govt is to ask for an extension in order to either have another referendum and/or to put a vote to the commons for revocation of article 50 asap?

    The options TMay laid out after losing tonight only lead one way? I don't see Brexit happening now.

    No its over and the anti-democrats have won. May will be directed to revoke Article 50 within the next few days.
    Better than this deal.

    If so we get a new PM and then they can invoked A50 again and this time plan all along for No Deal if we can't get an acceptable one, as this PM should have done from the start.
    Never going to happen. Your fellow travellers have probably ended the last chance we will get to leave. The country is completely and utterly fucked now. All those fearing a No Deal will come to realise it was a far better option that what we face now.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eristdoof said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    And even more bizarrely, they have blown it up for a Brexit ideal that they did not themselves personally believe in or argue for two years ago. They have hardened as time passes, whipping each other into more and more ridiculous positions.
    What are you talking about?

    Two years ago who was talking about the backstop? The deal was rejected because the EU didn't compromise on the backstop, the deal would have passed with a backstop compromise. Two years ago that wasn't an issue so you're not making much sense.
    The backstop was the compromise.
    No the backstop was surrender.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    dixiedean said:

    TMay "has not discussed resignation."
    Which seems utterly bizarre.
    She may have concluded there was no one else, that she wished to continue, that she was best placed, etc.
    But not discussed?

    Is there a better or quicker way to facilitate the House votes on the alternatives left to us ?

    Changing the figurehead is a second order problem.

  • tottenhamWCtottenhamWC Posts: 352
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    If May goes back to the EU, asks for more time, but doesn't have a credible strategy of how the extension might break the deadlock, how likely will it be that the EU will take a collective deep breath and say 'sorry, but we need certainty and stability before upcoming elections and we'll take the economic hit. Good buy and best of British'

    It seems as if the EU are in the driving seat now. Either we vote for Christmas, or the EU forces Christmas on March 29...

    Then we revoke. This is not an unlikely scenario.
    But who revokes? Surely if the EU turns around and doesn't grant an extension, there would need to be a vote to revoke. I guess you are saying there is a majority in the HoC for revoke?

    We'd see a resurgent UKIP, that's for sure...
    There will definitely be a majority for revoke if the alternative is no deal.
    That will require a lot of MPs to actively vote against the referendum result and the manifestos on which they were elected, will have to explain to their constituents and parties why they’ve done so.

    Up until now, a lot of Remainers have been very careful to avoid explicitly stating that they wish to overturn the referendum in Parliament.
    That's okay - they can blame it all on the ERG for screwing her death and forcing them into it when faced with a no deal cliff edge. Or they can vote for a referendum.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    DavidL said:

    If the Commons has a whopping majority against leaving with no deal, the Govt says well there's no better deal out there then presumably the logical next step of the Govt is to ask for an extension in order to either have another referendum and/or to put a vote to the commons for revocation of article 50 asap?

    The options TMay laid out after losing tonight only lead one way? I don't see Brexit happening now.

    No its over and the anti-democrats have won. May will be directed to revoke Article 50 within the next few days.
    Better than this deal.

    If so we get a new PM and then they can invoked A50 again and this time plan all along for No Deal if we can't get an acceptable one, as this PM should have done from the start.
    Never going to happen. Your fellow travellers have probably ended the last chance we will get to leave. The country is completely and utterly fucked now. All those fearing a No Deal will come to realise it was a far better option that what we face now.
    So we don't leave. Not that big of a deal. If the only way to leave was into purgatory of being in the backstop with zero power then I'd rather not leave anyway.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,231

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    I'm reading thru "The Bad Boys of Brexit" at the moment and you may be doing Banks a disservice. He was a fan of Flexcit, a phased withdrawal from EU membership via intermediate states. He was not a fan of Richard North (Flexcit's progenitor) but thought his idea had merit.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    We should be thankful that the EU has so far operated a lot more smoothly, quickly and been a lot more united than the UK government, despite being 27 countries rather than just one.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571

    eristdoof said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    And even more bizarrely, they have blown it up for a Brexit ideal that they did not themselves personally believe in or argue for two years ago. They have hardened as time passes, whipping each other into more and more ridiculous positions.
    What are you talking about?

    Two years ago who was talking about the backstop? The deal was rejected because the EU didn't compromise on the backstop, the deal would have passed with a backstop compromise. Two years ago that wasn't an issue so you're not making much sense.
    The backstop was the compromise.
    No the backstop was surrender.
    Only if you’re determined to be defeated, which the ERG appear to be.

  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861

    eristdoof said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    And even more bizarrely, they have blown it up for a Brexit ideal that they did not themselves personally believe in or argue for two years ago. They have hardened as time passes, whipping each other into more and more ridiculous positions.
    What are you talking about?

    Two years ago who was talking about the backstop? The deal was rejected because the EU didn't compromise on the backstop, the deal would have passed with a backstop compromise. Two years ago that wasn't an issue so you're not making much sense.
    The backstop was the compromise.
    No the backstop was surrender.
    I meant from the EU. Are you claiming the the EU has surrendered?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The last two weeks were well worth it:

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1105556461290225665

    So if every Tory had voted with their government the vote would have passed by 1? Bastards.
    Every Tory would include the likes of Grieve.

    So even if every Leaver Tory had backed the Deal it would have still lost.
    Maybe. If it was going to be that close who knows?
    I expect some of the Labour leavers shied off once they realised the government's deal was doomed.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited March 2019
    Remeber the default position is still no deal.

    Wishing away No Deal in the vote tomorrow doesn't magically make it stop happening.

    Only an extension (not our gift to give) or revocation stop no deal happening.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    If the Commons has a whopping majority against leaving with no deal, the Govt says well there's no better deal out there then presumably the logical next step of the Govt is to ask for an extension in order to either have another referendum and/or to put a vote to the commons for revocation of article 50 asap?

    The options TMay laid out after losing tonight only lead one way? I don't see Brexit happening now.

    No its over and the anti-democrats have won. May will be directed to revoke Article 50 within the next few days.
    Better than this deal.

    If so we get a new PM and then they can invoked A50 again and this time plan all along for No Deal if we can't get an acceptable one, as this PM should have done from the start.
    No chance mate.... you think a no-dealer is ever going to command a majority in the house???
    If they become Tory leader then they can go to the polls to get a majority.

    If die-hard Remainers walk out of the party to the Tiggers because a no-dealer has become PM then that makes it all the more possible that an elected majority will include a majority willing to countenance no deal. Especially no deal after 2 years of preparations which A50 gives us.
    We have a hung parliament precisely because there is no majority amongst voters for hard Brexit as the 2017 GE proved, even May has realised that
    You still push this absurd myth that no-deal Brexit can somehow be “prepared for.” It can’t.

    And whether it could have been, and whether it is indeed a gross dereliction of duty that May and co have not prepared for it, it is far too late now!
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    I'm not sure a sensible tory party can easily survive this but to get my vote it will have to consist of those sensible enough to have voted for this deal and vote against 'no deal' tomorrow. And I have thus far never voted for another party.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Sean_F said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    The ERG will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    Thanks, fuckwits.
    Yup. I just wish I was surprised. 75 votes needed to win and 75 Tory rebels. We, as a party, are finished. Any outcome that didn't see us leave with a deal is the end of us.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,231
    Jonathan said:

    Is there anyone in the 27 who would say no? Hope HMG have wargamed that scenario.
    For HMG to fail to investigate that possibility would be an act of gross negligence and utter stupidity...

    Pause

    Oh.

    Damn... :(
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited March 2019
    Unusual opinion but I still think a version of May’s Deal will pass.
    I think most MPs on all sides fear being blamed for cancelling Brexit almost as much as they fear No Deal.
    Ultimately there is still only one deal in town, and that’s May’s. No matter how hard I daydream, I just cannot see parliament turning its back on the referendum result. I also can’t see it voting for a new GE or new referendum.
    So I reckon the EU will extend Article 50 for two months and will work with May’s govt to use the clock as its friend. When time does run out I reckon May’s vote will return for a third time and squeak through.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    DavidL said:

    If the Commons has a whopping majority against leaving with no deal, the Govt says well there's no better deal out there then presumably the logical next step of the Govt is to ask for an extension in order to either have another referendum and/or to put a vote to the commons for revocation of article 50 asap?

    The options TMay laid out after losing tonight only lead one way? I don't see Brexit happening now.

    No its over and the anti-democrats have won. May will be directed to revoke Article 50 within the next few days.
    Better than this deal.

    If so we get a new PM and then they can invoked A50 again and this time plan all along for No Deal if we can't get an acceptable one, as this PM should have done from the start.
    Never going to happen. Your fellow travellers have probably ended the last chance we will get to leave. The country is completely and utterly fucked now. All those fearing a No Deal will come to realise it was a far better option that what we face now.
    So we don't leave. Not that big of a deal. If the only way to leave was into purgatory of being in the backstop with zero power then I'd rather not leave anyway.
    Any ladder you have to climb down to accept that remaining is the best option is good enough.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    Couple of thoughts

    1. Could a leaver remainer replacement joint ticket emerge? It might be a way for an immediate change of leader.

    2. I was talking to a Remain supporting colleague earlier. He proposed a referendum question the same as mine suggested weeks ago. Q1 Do you want to remain or leave? Q2 if we vote to leave do you want the deal or no deal?

    3. Can anyone explain why a backstop should not have a two year notice period like article 50?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Theres a little part of me that hopes the EU will tell us to piss off quite honestly.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The last two weeks were well worth it:

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1105556461290225665

    So if every Tory had voted with their government the vote would have passed by 1? Bastards.
    Every Tory would include the likes of Grieve.

    So even if every Leaver Tory had backed the Deal it would have still lost.
    Maybe. If it was going to be that close who knows?
    It's religious for Grieve, he would never vote for it.
  • booksellerbookseller Posts: 416
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    If May goes back to the EU, asks for more time, but doesn't have a credible strategy of how the extension might break the deadlock, how likely will it be that the EU will take a collective deep breath and say 'sorry, but we need certainty and stability before upcoming elections and we'll take the economic hit. Good buy and best of British'

    It seems as if the EU are in the driving seat now. Either we vote for Christmas, or the EU forces Christmas on March 29...

    Then we revoke. This is not an unlikely scenario.
    But who revokes? Surely if the EU turns around and doesn't grant an extension, there would need to be a vote to revoke. I guess you are saying there is a majority in the HoC for revoke?

    We'd see a resurgent UKIP, that's for sure...
    There will definitely be a majority for revoke if the alternative is no deal.
    That will require a lot of MPs to actively vote against the referendum result and the manifestos on which they were elected, will have to explain to their constituents and parties why they’ve done so.

    Up until now, a lot of Remainers have been very careful to avoid explicitly stating that they wish to overturn the referendum in Parliament.
    Quite. I don't see Revoke as a foregone conclusion at all.

    I imagine a scenario over the next 24 hours where *a lot* of horsetrading is done (and possibly a fair bit of JRM's Somerset Capital gains dished out) to get a 'No Deal' vote through. I can imagine (Labour) MPs will be pitched to rather like Mel Gibson's Braveheart speech: "And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance..."

    Stop thinking in terms of HoC business as usual. This is much more like the kind of thinking that goes on during a coup.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Nigelb said:

    eristdoof said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    And even more bizarrely, they have blown it up for a Brexit ideal that they did not themselves personally believe in or argue for two years ago. They have hardened as time passes, whipping each other into more and more ridiculous positions.
    What are you talking about?

    Two years ago who was talking about the backstop? The deal was rejected because the EU didn't compromise on the backstop, the deal would have passed with a backstop compromise. Two years ago that wasn't an issue so you're not making much sense.
    The backstop was the compromise.
    No the backstop was surrender.
    Only if you’re determined to be defeated, which the ERG appear to be.

    All or nothing. Out or in. Make a bloody decision but do it.

    Dawdling around isn't an answer. If I'm travelling on the M6 I'm prepared to travel 70 miles per hour Northbound or 70 miles per hour Southbound. Parking your car indecisively amongst free flowing traffic isn't a compromise it is a disaster.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    dots said:

    I was wrong. I thought ERG would recognise last chance saloon when in one. I don’t understand.

    The brexit on the table from May and Eu was a hard brexit, not a soft brexit. Brexiteers pushed it all the way to wring out every ounce of hard brexit. But then they didn’t cash in. They didn’t take the lolly. I don’t understand it. I really don’t understand how the ERG could take it all the way to get hardest brexit they are ever going to get, and not bank it. The moment to switch from poker face to walking out with the pot was there, and they didn’t take it. They are now alone at the table with no money on it. I don’t understand them.

    In this years brexit ref it’s 20 million remain, 14 million or less for leave, . It’s a long way back for brexiteers from this moment. tell me I’m wrong. If science is true and unique golden brexit generation is dying off, There may never be a way back for brexit.

    Brexit was hard won. It was there on the table for them to walk off with and they didn’t take it. I don’t understand.

    Well you have been wrong on just about every other number you put up on here so you will certainly be wrong on those ones.

    If there is a referendum I expect Remain will get far fewer votes than last time and Leave will run with an abstention campaign to delegitimise the whole process. After that the country will be ungovernable for the next few decades.
    And Remain will win, and we'll move on and no-one worry too much.

    Most people are not political, they just want the trains to run on time, and to see a doctor easily...
    You are genuinely deluded if you think that. You will be handing power to the extremists and will be lucky to avoid serious civil unrest. The idea that you can give people a vote and then tell them they were wrong and ignore it means you are telling them democracy is a farce.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,850
    _Anazina_ said:

    I think unilaterally revoking Article 50 is now the only thing we can do, while we figure out what the hell is going on.

    Yeah a complete and total shutdown of Brexit. We have no choice, folks, no choice. 😊
  • tottenhamWCtottenhamWC Posts: 352
    Alistair said:

    Remeber the default position is still no deal.

    Wishing away No Deal in the vote tomorrow doesn't magically make it stop happening.

    Only an extension (not our gift to give) or revocation stop no deal happening.

    They will agree an extension for a referendum.

    Choices are: no deal (likely to be categorically ruled out tomorrow); revoke or a referendum now.
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,093
    Jonathan said:

    Is there anyone in the 27 who would say no? Hope HMG have wargamed that scenario.
    Belgium and Lithuania are the dangers, bizarrely: https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/under-which-conditions-would-the-eu27-agree-to-an-article-50-extension/

    Any party officials being told to prep for Euros? Denied by CCHQ today. Lib Dems are apparently geared up. Farage has a full slate. Labour HQ probably busy thinking about their other problems.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    IanB2 said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    And even more bizarrely, they have blown it up for a Brexit ideal that they did not themselves personally believe in or argue for two years ago. They have hardened as time passes, whipping each other into more and more ridiculous positions.
    What are you talking about?

    Two years ago who was talking about the backstop? The deal was rejected because the EU didn't compromise on the backstop, the deal would have passed with a backstop compromise. Two years ago that wasn't an issue so you're not making much sense.
    The ultras were always going to find some way to vote against any real world approach to Brexit. Their whole mindset is to oppose, never to propose.
    Exactly.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    Sean_F said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    The ERG will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    Thanks, fuckwits.
    The incredible thing is that they went along with May for over two years before they had their tantrum.

    The time to argue was back in 2016.
    There is an interesting parallel universe where May lost the Tory MP confidence vote before Xmas.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,913

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    If the Commons has a whopping majority against leaving with no deal, the Govt says well there's no better deal out there then presumably the logical next step of the Govt is to ask for an extension in order to either have another referendum and/or to put a vote to the commons for revocation of article 50 asap?

    The options TMay laid out after losing tonight only lead one way? I don't see Brexit happening now.

    No its over and the anti-democrats have won. May will be directed to revoke Article 50 within the next few days.
    Better than this deal.

    If so we get a new PM and then they can invoked A50 again and this time plan all along for No Deal if we can't get an acceptable one, as this PM should have done from the start.
    You're absolutely delusional. Once A50 is revoked we won't leave for 20-30 years or if the EU collapses.
    Delusion is the disease of the ultras.

    Assuming they’re not secret Remainers.
    Europhile Remainer Group?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    May's deal had no support.

    The idea that after a GE on the topic of Brexit where May lost her majority and then lost a series of votes on her deal it is "anti-democrats" who are to blame.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    TMay "has not discussed resignation."
    Which seems utterly bizarre.
    She may have concluded there was no one else, that she wished to continue, that she was best placed, etc.
    But not discussed?

    Is there a better or quicker way to facilitate the House votes on the alternatives left to us ?

    Changing the figurehead is a second order problem.

    Not arguing there is.
    Merely that not appearing to have contemplated it is extremely peculiar.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    dots said:

    I was wrong. I thought ERG would recognise last chance saloon when in one. I don’t understand.

    The brexit on the table from May and Eu was a hard brexit, not a soft brexit. Brexiteers pushed it all the way to wring out every ounce of hard brexit. But then they didn’t cash in. They didn’t take the lolly. I don’t understand it. I really don’t understand how the ERG could take it all the way to get hardest brexit they are ever going to get, and not bank it. The moment to switch from poker face to walking out with the pot was there, and they didn’t take it. They are now alone at the table with no money on it. I don’t understand them.

    In this years brexit ref it’s 20 million remain, 14 million or less for leave, . It’s a long way back for brexiteers from this moment. tell me I’m wrong. If science is true and unique golden brexit generation is dying off, There may never be a way back for brexit.

    Brexit was hard won. It was there on the table for them to walk off with and they didn’t take it. I don’t understand.

    Well you have been wrong on just about every other number you put up on here so you will certainly be wrong on those ones.

    If there is a referendum I expect Remain will get far fewer votes than last time and Leave will run with an abstention campaign to delegitimise the whole process. After that the country will be ungovernable for the next few decades.
    And Remain will win, and we'll move on and no-one worry too much.

    Most people are not political, they just want the trains to run on time, and to see a doctor easily...
    You are genuinely deluded if you think that. You will be handing power to the extremists and will be lucky to avoid serious civil unrest. The idea that you can give people a vote and then tell them they were wrong and ignore it means you are telling them democracy is a farce.
    Isn't it?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    If the Commons has a whopping majority against leaving with no deal, the Govt says well there's no better deal out there then presumably the logical next step of the Govt is to ask for an extension in order to either have another referendum and/or to put a vote to the commons for revocation of article 50 asap?

    The options TMay laid out after losing tonight only lead one way? I don't see Brexit happening now.

    No its over and the anti-democrats have won. May will be directed to revoke Article 50 within the next few days.
    Better than this deal.

    If so we get a new PM and then they can invoked A50 again and this time plan all along for No Deal if we can't get an acceptable one, as this PM should have done from the start.
    Who's going to be the new PM to invoke A50 ?

    I don't see many of the ERG willing to step up and face some reality, take some responsibility and do some work.
    There are a lot of thick Brexiters in Parliament and a few more on here. Mr Thompson is one of them.
    I'm not thick, I have a principled objection to the backstop. And I don't view Brexit as more important than that.
    You at least are honest that you think remaining is better than the deal with the backstop. That's better than a great many of the ERG, who don't all admit that.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    kle4 said:

    A satisfactory day’s betting. My only regret is that there weren’t more Tory nutters.

    It's rare that one underestimates the numbers of Tory nutters.

    I see I was not far off in predicting the vote. I hope that hereon out we can dispense with the fictions and refer to people who want Brexits which are not on offer from the EU (which are the only way we get a deal) or a no Brexit they know does not have support in parliament, for what they are: Remainers. Rees-Mogg and co might protest at the label, but that's what they are now, facilitators of Remain. The attempt to paint those who would actually have us legally out the door at least as more remainy than those who cloak themselves in fine Brexity words but who object to actually seeing Brexit through, should not stand.

    Indeed.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    dots said:

    I was wrong. I thought ERG would recognise last chance saloon when in one. I don’t understand.

    The brexit on the table from May and Eu was a hard brexit, not a soft brexit. Brexiteers pushed it all the way to wring out every ounce of hard brexit. But then they didn’t cash in. They didn’t take the lolly. I don’t understand it. I really don’t understand how the ERG could take it all the way to get hardest brexit they are ever going to get, and not bank it. The moment to switch from poker face to walking out with the pot was there, and they didn’t take it. They are now alone at the table with no money on it. I don’t understand them.

    In this years brexit ref it’s 20 million remain, 14 million or less for leave, . It’s a long way back for brexiteers from this moment. tell me I’m wrong. If science is true and unique golden brexit generation is dying off, There may never be a way back for brexit.

    Brexit was hard won. It was there on the table for them to walk off with and they didn’t take it. I don’t understand.

    Well you have been wrong on just about every other number you put up on here so you will certainly be wrong on those ones.

    If there is a referendum I expect Remain will get far fewer votes than last time and Leave will run with an abstention campaign to delegitimise the whole process. After that the country will be ungovernable for the next few decades.
    And Remain will win, and we'll move on and no-one worry too much.

    Most people are not political, they just want the trains to run on time, and to see a doctor easily...
    You are genuinely deluded if you think that. You will be handing power to the extremists and will be lucky to avoid serious civil unrest. The idea that you can give people a vote and then tell them they were wrong and ignore it means you are telling them democracy is a farce.
    Will you be involved in the civil unrest?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Nigelb said:

    eristdoof said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    And even more bizarrely, they have blown it up for a Brexit ideal that they did not themselves personally believe in or argue for two years ago. They have hardened as time passes, whipping each other into more and more ridiculous positions.
    What are you talking about?

    Two years ago who was talking about the backstop? The deal was rejected because the EU didn't compromise on the backstop, the deal would have passed with a backstop compromise. Two years ago that wasn't an issue so you're not making much sense.
    The backstop was the compromise.
    No the backstop was surrender.
    Only if you’re determined to be defeated, which the ERG appear to be.

    As they see it "better to reign in hell than serve in Heaven."
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695

    Couple of thoughts

    1. Could a leaver remainer replacement joint ticket emerge? It might be a way for an immediate change of leader.


    I've been wondering about Boris and Nicky Morgan...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    kinabalu said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    I think unilaterally revoking Article 50 is now the only thing we can do, while we figure out what the hell is going on.

    Yeah a complete and total shutdown of Brexit. We have no choice, folks, no choice. 😊
    In which case Mr Glenn will be the hero of the site for depriving SeanT of a tiny slice of his immoral earnings.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    If May goes back to the EU, asks for more time, but doesn't have a credible strategy of how the extension might break the deadlock, how likely will it be that the EU will take a collective deep breath and say 'sorry, but we need certainty and stability before upcoming elections and we'll take the economic hit. Good buy and best of British'

    It seems as if the EU are in the driving seat now. Either we vote for Christmas, or the EU forces Christmas on March 29...

    Then we revoke. This is not an unlikely scenario.
    But who revokes? Surely if the EU turns around and doesn't grant an extension, there would need to be a vote to revoke. I guess you are saying there is a majority in the HoC for revoke?

    We'd see a resurgent UKIP, that's for sure...
    There will definitely be a majority for revoke if the alternative is no deal.
    That will require a lot of MPs to actively vote against the referendum result and the manifestos on which they were elected, will have to explain to their constituents and parties why they’ve done so.

    Up until now, a lot of Remainers have been very careful to avoid explicitly stating that they wish to overturn the referendum in Parliament.
    That's okay - they can blame it all on the ERG for screwing her death and forcing them into it when faced with a no deal cliff edge. Or they can vote for a referendum.
    If the referendum is a choice between Mays twice defeated crap deal or remain that would be an offence to democracy when you are offering shit or shit as the choice . What we need is a new Prine Minister who believes in leaving the EU who revokeS A50 and then resubmits A50 giving us two years to prepare for wto brexit . Which is how it should have have happened the first time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Pulpstar said:

    Theres a little part of me that hopes the EU will tell us to piss off quite honestly.
    It would at least concentrate minds. And I think the EU have a lot of the time been self defeatingly unreasonable, but frankly if they have not had enough of our shit by now then they should have, and enabling us to cock about is not helping anyone. And for all May is a major part of the problem, the unwillingness of parliament, so far, to approve anything and instead only reject things, is out of her control.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    The ERG will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    Thanks, fuckwits.
    The incredible thing is that they went along with May for over two years before they had their tantrum.

    The time to argue was back in 2016.
    There is an interesting parallel universe where May lost the Tory MP confidence vote before Xmas.
    Who still thinks May winning the confidence vote was the right move?

    As I said at the time, even if May lost, was replaced and her replacement could get no meaningful changes at least then it would be more believable her replacement had tried everything.

    If Boris/Davis/Baker/Mogg had become PM in December/January and had the meeting with Juncker last night and then backed the deal as the best thing achievable they'd be more believable than May was.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Pulpstar said:

    Theres a little part of me that hopes the EU will tell us to piss off quite honestly.
    It might concentrate what MP's call their minds.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Interesting line from the PM:

    Voting for an extension does not solve the problems the government faces. The EU will want to know if the UK wants to revoke article 50 or if it wants a referendum. Those are choices the house must now face.

    Is that a hint that the government will offer the House those two options? She's right on the substantive point, of course.

    I think it’s a pretty strong hint that the EU has already told her that those are the only choices for Britain if Parliament votes for an extension of Article 50. See also the statement from the EU about wanting a reasoned justification for an extension.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    May will have to vote for No to 'no deal' tomorrow to avoid being defeated twice running. Same logic, she'll have to vote for the extension request on Thursday. Finally events have forced her into the opposite lobby from her nutters.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    In an alternative world, all the Tories could have voted with the government tonight and the ‘meaningful’ vote would have carried by 1.

    Tomorrow’s business would then be a VoNC, which the government would lose with the DUP opposed. Then would start a 14-day clock to find a new PM, with all the Brexit legislation still outstanding and the Treaty not yet formally ratified.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GIN1138 said:

    I've been wondering about Boris and Nicky Morgan...

    Mind bleach...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Cyclefree said:

    Interesting line from the PM:

    Voting for an extension does not solve the problems the government faces. The EU will want to know if the UK wants to revoke article 50 or if it wants a referendum. Those are choices the house must now face.

    Is that a hint that the government will offer the House those two options? She's right on the substantive point, of course.

    I think it’s a pretty strong hint that the EU has already told her that those are the only choices for Britain if Parliament votes for an extension of Article 50. See also the statement from the EU about wanting a reasoned justification for an extension.
    It would suit her to appear to be forced into either.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited March 2019
    We need to pause to consider Mays unique incompetence today. The vote was not close. It was blown apart by a document her government published. She seems to have no idea that defeat was going to happen. She ploughed on regardless, spending whatever political capital she had left. What was her whipping operation doing? Why does she walk into these cul de sacs? Who is advising her?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IanB2 said:

    May will have to vote for No to 'no deal' tomorrow to avoid being defeated twice running. Same logic, she'll have to vote for the extension request on Thursday. Finally events have forced her into the opposite lobby from her nutters.

    May who once claimed 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    The ERG will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    Thanks, fuckwits.
    The incredible thing is that they went along with May for over two years before they had their tantrum.

    The time to argue was back in 2016.
    There is an interesting parallel universe where May lost the Tory MP confidence vote before Xmas.
    Who still thinks May winning the confidence vote was the right move?

    As I said at the time, even if May lost, was replaced and her replacement could get no meaningful changes at least then it would be more believable her replacement had tried everything.

    If Boris/Davis/Baker/Mogg had become PM in December/January and had the meeting with Juncker last night and then backed the deal as the best thing achievable they'd be more believable than May was.
    On a Nixon in China basis, for sure. Although Boris missed his Nixon moment in the aftermath to the 2016 vote.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    IanB2 said:

    May will have to vote for No to 'no deal' tomorrow to avoid being defeated twice running. Same logic, she'll have to vote for the extension request on Thursday. Finally events have forced her into the opposite lobby from her nutters.

    May who once claimed 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.
    ..but never said that no deal was better than a good deal.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    eristdoof said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    And even more bizarrely, they have blown it up for a Brexit ideal that they did not themselves personally believe in or argue for two years ago. They have hardened as time passes, whipping each other into more and more ridiculous positions.
    What are you talking about?

    Two years ago who was talking about the backstop? The deal was rejected because the EU didn't compromise on the backstop, the deal would have passed with a backstop compromise. Two years ago that wasn't an issue so you're not making much sense.
    The backstop was the compromise.
    No the backstop was surrender.
    Only if you’re determined to be defeated, which the ERG appear to be.

    As they see it "better to reign in hell than serve in Heaven."
    They entirely lack the charisma and intelligence of Milton’s Satan.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Jonathan said:

    We need to pause to consider Mays unique incompetence today. The vote was not close. It was blown apart by a document her government published. She seems to have no idea that defeat was going to happen. She ploughed on regardless, spending whatever political capital she had left. What was her whipping operation doing? Why does she walk into these cul de sacs? Who is advising her?

    Worst PM ever that I can think of.

    Even Chamberlain and Eden faced their crises with more respect and more consideration of a Plan B than May has.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The last two weeks were well worth it:

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1105556461290225665

    So if every Tory had voted with their government the vote would have passed by 1? Bastards.
    Every Tory would include the likes of Grieve.

    So even if every Leaver Tory had backed the Deal it would have still lost.
    Maybe. If it was going to be that close who knows?
    I expect some of the Labour leavers shied off once they realised the government's deal was doomed.
    I'm sure that is true to an extent, but let's be honest in saying that Labour leavers have long been predicted to split off on these votes and yet even now they won't without sufficient cover or assurance of victory, so the reality seems to be that they don't support leaving as much as they say because they are not willing to stand up and be counted about it. Today really was a crunch point, and they still did not materialise. I don't think there were ever as many of them as suggested. Not leavers willing to go against the party line at any rate.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited March 2019
    Sandpit said:

    In an alternative world, all the Tories could have voted with the government tonight and the ‘meaningful’ vote would have carried by 1.

    Tomorrow’s business would then be a VoNC, which the government would lose with the DUP opposed. Then would start a 14-day clock to find a new PM, with all the Brexit legislation still outstanding and the Treaty not yet formally ratified.

    In that alternative world, the EU extends A50 without any issues while we elect a new government. The deal would have passed and they would have cause to extend without asking for a material change in the situation. I'm almost certain that we would be returned with a majority had the deal passed, not a big one but enough to shut the DUP up for good.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,231
    Pulpstar said:

    Theres a little part of me that hopes the EU will tell us to piss off quite honestly.
    They won't. It looks like my worst-case scenario (delay-plus-no-deal) is coming true. Damn, I don't like this... :(
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Theres a little part of me that hopes the EU will tell us to piss off quite honestly.
    It might concentrate what MP's call their minds.
    You'd think, but many still don't even understand what they are voting on or against, with the talk of transitions without the WA and so on.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    edited March 2019

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    The ERG will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    Thanks, fuckwits.
    The incredible thing is that they went along with May for over two years before they had their tantrum.

    The time to argue was back in 2016.
    There is an interesting parallel universe where May lost the Tory MP confidence vote before Xmas.
    Who still thinks May winning the confidence vote was the right move?

    As I said at the time, even if May lost, was replaced and her replacement could get no meaningful changes at least then it would be more believable her replacement had tried everything.

    If Boris/Davis/Baker/Mogg had become PM in December/January and had the meeting with Juncker last night and then backed the deal as the best thing achievable they'd be more believable than May was.
    And if the ERG had been clever enough to hold back their letters until the day after May's deal went down massively, they could well have pulled it off. But they ejaculated their letters prematurely.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    DavidL said:

    If the Commons has a whopping majority against leaving with no deal, the Govt says well there's no better deal out there then presumably the logical next step of the Govt is to ask for an extension in order to either have another referendum and/or to put a vote to the commons for revocation of article 50 asap?

    The options TMay laid out after losing tonight only lead one way? I don't see Brexit happening now.

    No its over and the anti-democrats have won. May will be directed to revoke Article 50 within the next few days.
    Better than this deal.

    If so we get a new PM and then they can invoked A50 again and this time plan all along for No Deal if we can't get an acceptable one, as this PM should have done from the start.
    Never going to happen. Your fellow travellers have probably ended the last chance we will get to leave. The country is completely and utterly fucked now. All those fearing a No Deal will come to realise it was a far better option that what we face now.
    So we don't leave. Not that big of a deal. If the only way to leave was into purgatory of being in the backstop with zero power then I'd rather not leave anyway.
    You'll enjoy wearing the blue gimp suit with the gold stars then....
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009
    Drutt said:

    Jonathan said:

    Is there anyone in the 27 who would say no? Hope HMG have wargamed that scenario.
    Belgium and Lithuania are the dangers, bizarrely: https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/under-which-conditions-would-the-eu27-agree-to-an-article-50-extension/
    That's interesting, but I think they may have lost some nuances. I remember reading what the Lithuanian president said, and as well as saying No Deal might be better than an extension she also stressed that they would do their best to accommodate a request, or words to that effect.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    The ERG will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    Thanks, fuckwits.
    The incredible thing is that they went along with May for over two years before they had their tantrum.

    The time to argue was back in 2016.
    There is an interesting parallel universe where May lost the Tory MP confidence vote before Xmas.
    Who still thinks May winning the confidence vote was the right move?

    As I said at the time, even if May lost, was replaced and her replacement could get no meaningful changes at least then it would be more believable her replacement had tried everything.

    If Boris/Davis/Baker/Mogg had become PM in December/January and had the meeting with Juncker last night and then backed the deal as the best thing achievable they'd be more believable than May was.
    On a Nixon in China basis, for sure. Although Boris missed his Nixon moment in the aftermath to the 2016 vote.
    Indeed on a Nixon in China basis.

    What's the worst that could have happened if May had been replaced?

    Cooper/Boles and co would still have been MPs and Bercow would still have been speaker. But at least we could have tried something to change the Parliamentary numbers.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    _Anazina_ said:

    I think unilaterally revoking Article 50 is now the only thing we can do, while we figure out what the hell is going on.

    It's the only course of action that doesn't hand control of the agenda to the EU.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 549
    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    I think unilaterally revoking Article 50 is now the only thing we can do, while we figure out what the hell is going on.

    Yeah a complete and total shutdown of Brexit. We have no choice, folks, no choice. 😊
    In which case Mr Glenn will be the hero of the site for depriving SeanT of a tiny slice of his immoral earnings.
    Immoral?!? I write stories that people like, and buy. Indeed I’ve just had a Hollywood film offer AND a BBC TV offer for etc etc

    Apart from that, yes, you’re absolutely right. Williamglenn saw this coming, and I did not. He has rightly earned his 1000 sterling, if we now Remain, as seems likely.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Sean_F said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    The ERG will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    Thanks, fuckwits.
    The incredible thing is that they went along with May for over two years before they had their tantrum.

    The time to argue was back in 2016.
    There chance was December 2018 when this deal was first announced.

    They said the backstop was unacceptable. The DUP said the backstop was unacceptable.

    May then got the EU to define exactly the same backstop in slightly different words and suddenly the ERG and the DUP were inboard and everyone proclaimed May a genius negotiator and what a brilliant bit of theatre for everyone to save face.

    Despite. Nothing. Changing.

    The morons let this charade play out time and time again, bluster about the backstop and then be gulled by some nonsense wording changes. Again and again.

    What where they thinking?
  • I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    And even more bizarrely, they have blown it up for a Brexit ideal that they did not themselves personally believe in or argue for two years ago. They have hardened as time passes, whipping each other into more and more ridiculous positions.
    What are you talking about?

    Two years ago who was talking about the backstop? The deal was rejected because the EU didn't compromise on the backstop, the deal would have passed with a backstop compromise. Two years ago that wasn't an issue so you're not making much sense.
    The EU did compromise on the backstop. They wanted it to be NI-only.
    May made them concede a UK-wide backstop.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    more leaks than a Cardiff international.

    https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1105568607084441602
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Spare a thought for Cox - he could have gone down as the man who delivered Brexit, if he had been persuaded to change his mind and the DUP and co actually reacted as they suggested they might in those circumstances. Instead he took a decision he knew would spell the end for the efforts of his PM, and quite possibly Brexit as well. The politician vs the lawyer within him must have been a tough battle.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    DavidL said:

    If the Commons has a whopping majority against leaving with no deal, the Govt says well there's no better deal out there then presumably the logical next step of the Govt is to ask for an extension in order to either have another referendum and/or to put a vote to the commons for revocation of article 50 asap?

    The options TMay laid out after losing tonight only lead one way? I don't see Brexit happening now.

    No its over and the anti-democrats have won. May will be directed to revoke Article 50 within the next few days.
    Better than this deal.

    If so we get a new PM and then they can invoked A50 again and this time plan all along for No Deal if we can't get an acceptable one, as this PM should have done from the start.
    Never going to happen. Your fellow travellers have probably ended the last chance we will get to leave. The country is completely and utterly fucked now. All those fearing a No Deal will come to realise it was a far better option that what we face now.
    So we don't leave. Not that big of a deal. If the only way to leave was into purgatory of being in the backstop with zero power then I'd rather not leave anyway.
    You'll enjoy wearing the blue gimp suit with the gold stars then....
    No but I'll enjoy voting in the Euro elections if it comes to it. I'm not sure who I'd vote for now though.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    Jonathan said:

    We need to pause to consider Mays unique incompetence today. The vote was not close. It was blown apart by a document her government published. She seems to have no idea that defeat was going to happen. She ploughed on regardless, spending whatever political capital she had left. What was her whipping operation doing? Why does she walk into these cul de sacs? Who is advising her?

    The cynic in me says she has purposely engineered this crap deal to ensure we remain in the EU. It was a cunning plan all along
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    dots said:

    I was wrong. I thought ERG would recognise last chance saloon when in one. I don’t understand.

    The brexit on the table from May and Eu was a hard brexit, not a soft brexit. Brexiteers pushed it all the way to wring out every ounce of hard brexit. But then they didn’t cash in. They didn’t take the lolly. I don’t understand it. I really don’t understand how the ERG could take it all the way to get hardest brexit they are ever going to get, and not bank it. The moment to switch from poker face to walking out with the pot was there, and they didn’t take it. They are now alone at the table with no money on it. I don’t understand them.

    In this years brexit ref it’s 20 million remain, 14 million or less for leave, . It’s a long way back for brexiteers from this moment. tell me I’m wrong. If science is true and unique golden brexit generation is dying off, There may never be a way back for brexit.

    Brexit was hard won. It was there on the table for them to walk off with and they didn’t take it. I don’t understand.

    Well you have been wrong on just about every other number you put up on here so you will certainly be wrong on those ones.

    If there is a referendum I expect Remain will get far fewer votes than last time and Leave will run with an abstention campaign to delegitimise the whole process. After that the country will be ungovernable for the next few decades.
    And Remain will win, and we'll move on and no-one worry too much.

    Most people are not political, they just want the trains to run on time, and to see a doctor easily...
    You are genuinely deluded if you think that. You will be handing power to the extremists and will be lucky to avoid serious civil unrest. The idea that you can give people a vote and then tell them they were wrong and ignore it means you are telling them democracy is a farce.
    We don't normally do direct democracy (with good reason) so we didn't really know whether it was a farce or not (It is). As for "the extremists" some types of extremist scare the shit out of me. The Brexit Mean's brexit lot are not among them.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    IanB2 said:

    May will have to vote for No to 'no deal' tomorrow to avoid being defeated twice running. Same logic, she'll have to vote for the extension request on Thursday. Finally events have forced her into the opposite lobby from her nutters.

    May who once claimed 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.
    But it wasn't a bad deal. I've read large sections of it and carefully read last night's additions. It added up to a reasonable deal, and, as I've pointed out on many, many occasions the backstop suits us. We need many years to fix our non-EU trade deals. The backstop would have given us time and space to make that happen. Ultimately we had a chance to leave the EU and our own MPs have thrown it away, possible forever. That is unforgivable. Our party is finished.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    And even more bizarrely, they have blown it up for a Brexit ideal that they did not themselves personally believe in or argue for two years ago. They have hardened as time passes, whipping each other into more and more ridiculous positions.
    What are you talking about?

    Two years ago who was talking about the backstop? The deal was rejected because the EU didn't compromise on the backstop, the deal would have passed with a backstop compromise. Two years ago that wasn't an issue so you're not making much sense.
    The EU did compromise on the backstop. They wanted it to be NI-only.
    May made them concede a UK-wide backstop.
    The backstop shouldn't exist in the first place. UK or NI it is unacceptable either way.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    dr_spyn said:

    more leaks than a Cardiff international.

    https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1105568607084441602

    Lord save us from more godsdamned amendments.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Jonathan said:

    We need to pause to consider Mays unique incompetence today. The vote was not close. It was blown apart by a document her government published. She seems to have no idea that defeat was going to happen. She ploughed on regardless, spending whatever political capital she had left. What was her whipping operation doing? Why does she walk into these cul de sacs? Who is advising her?

    May has made plenty of mistakes, but allowing MP's to vote on the Deal is not one of them.

    And, it doesn't matter how good you are if a quarter of your MP's are knuckleheads.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,231
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    eristdoof said:

    I am genuinely stunned. The ERG are morons. Utter morons.

    Yep.
    Never, in the history of politics, can there have been a better example of 'the best being the enemy of the good'.

    Quite incredible.

    Quite predictable.
    I thought I was hanging out with Michael Goves, Geoffrey Coxs, and Stephen Barclays, influenced by the pragmatism of Robert Smithsons.

    It turns out I was also hanging out with Andrew Lilicos, Andrea Jenkyns, Steve Bakers and Michael Fabricants, agitated by ultra ideologues and the likes of Aaron Banks.
    Indeed...There was a sensible Brexit out there, and the head bangers blew it all up.
    And even more bizarrely, they have blown it up for a Brexit ideal that they did not themselves personally believe in or argue for two years ago. They have hardened as time passes, whipping each other into more and more ridiculous positions.
    What are you talking about?

    Two years ago who was talking about the backstop? The deal was rejected because the EU didn't compromise on the backstop, the deal would have passed with a backstop compromise. Two years ago that wasn't an issue so you're not making much sense.
    The backstop was the compromise.
    No the backstop was surrender.
    Only if you’re determined to be defeated, which the ERG appear to be.

    As they see it "better to reign in hell than serve in Heaven."
    Well thank you, Khan... :)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    dots said:

    I was wrong. I thought ERG would recognise last chance saloon when in one. I don’t understand.

    The brexit on the table from May and Eu was a hard brexit, not a soft brexit. Brexiteers pushed it all the way to wring out every ounce of hard brexit. But then they didn’t cash in. They didn’t take the lolly. I don’t understand it. I really don’t understand how the ERG could take it all the way to get hardest brexit they are ever going to get, and not bank it. The moment to switch from poker face to walking out with the pot was there, and they didn’t take it. They are now alone at the table with no money on it. I don’t understand them.

    In this years brexit ref it’s 20 million remain, 14 million or less for leave, . It’s a long way back for brexiteers from this moment. tell me I’m wrong. If science is true and unique golden brexit generation is dying off, There may never be a way back for brexit.

    Brexit was hard won. It was there on the table for them to walk off with and they didn’t take it. I don’t understand.

    Well you have been wrong on just about every other number you put up on here so you will certainly be wrong on those ones.

    If there is a referendum I expect Remain will get far fewer votes than last time and Leave will run with an abstention campaign to delegitimise the whole process. After that the country will be ungovernable for the next few decades.
    And Remain will win, and we'll move on and no-one worry too much.

    Most people are not political, they just want the trains to run on time, and to see a doctor easily...
    You are genuinely deluded if you think that. You will be handing power to the extremists and will be lucky to avoid serious civil unrest. The idea that you can give people a vote and then tell them they were wrong and ignore it means you are telling them democracy is a farce.
    Will you be involved in the civil unrest?
    "We must give the extremists what they want otherwise they will cause trouble" is always a unique take on any situation.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    DavidL said:

    You are genuinely deluded if you think that. You will be handing power to the extremists and will be lucky to avoid serious civil unrest. The idea that you can give people a vote and then tell them they were wrong and ignore it means you are telling them democracy is a farce.

    Isn't it?
    There never was, irrespective of manifestos, a majority of MPs favouring Brexit. Events since the referendum have pointed to Remain or BINO being the final outcome, providing MPs can find some political cover for those outcomes.

    My guess is that if there were no political consequences you wouldn't even get 200 MPs voting to Leave. I suspect that a fair number who voted for the deal tonight did so not because they want to Leave, but because they at least realise the risk of ignoring a referendum.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The last two weeks were well worth it:

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1105556461290225665

    So if every Tory had voted with their government the vote would have passed by 1? Bastards.
    Every Tory would include the likes of Grieve.

    So even if every Leaver Tory had backed the Deal it would have still lost.
    Maybe. If it was going to be that close who knows?
    I expect some of the Labour leavers shied off once they realised the government's deal was doomed.
    I'm sure that is true to an extent, but let's be honest in saying that Labour leavers have long been predicted to split off on these votes and yet even now they won't without sufficient cover or assurance of victory, so the reality seems to be that they don't support leaving as much as they say because they are not willing to stand up and be counted about it. Today really was a crunch point, and they still did not materialise. I don't think there were ever as many of them as suggested. Not leavers willing to go against the party line at any rate.
    To be fair they are the opposition - the clue is in the name. The prospect of a government in visible crisis is always an incentive to vote the government down. With no prospect of May's deal getting through, there is little upside for any Labour MP voting for the deal.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Theres a little part of me that hopes the EU will tell us to piss off quite honestly.
    It might concentrate what MP's call their minds.
    You'd think, but many still don't even understand what they are voting on or against, with the talk of transitions without the WA and so on.
    The truth is they're probably not bright enough to run the country without the EU's help
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 549
    edited March 2019

    _Anazina_ said:

    I think unilaterally revoking Article 50 is now the only thing we can do, while we figure out what the hell is going on.

    It's the only course of action that doesn't hand control of the agenda to the EU.
    I am forced to agree. Revoke is now, theoretically, the best option. We are internationally embarrassed but we keep the Rebate, opt-outs, everything, & business floods back to London

    Trouble is it also hands the next election to Corbyn.

    Which is worse?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    Jonathan said:

    We need to pause to consider Mays unique incompetence today. The vote was not close. It was blown apart by a document her government published. She seems to have no idea that defeat was going to happen. She ploughed on regardless, spending whatever political capital she had left. What was her whipping operation doing? Why does she walk into these cul de sacs? Who is advising her?

    What's more this has been plain since the vote was first pulled in December. Leaving no time to find a way out. New PM, GE, extension for referendum would all be much easier with an extra 3 months.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    GIN1138 said:

    Couple of thoughts

    1. Could a leaver remainer replacement joint ticket emerge? It might be a way for an immediate change of leader.


    I've been wondering about Boris and Nicky Morgan...
    I was thinking of a more middle of the road pairing. Javid / Gove.
  • tottenhamWCtottenhamWC Posts: 352
    dr_spyn said:

    more leaks than a Cardiff international.

    https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1105568607084441602

    That's really worthwhile.... idiots
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    IanB2 said:

    May will have to vote for No to 'no deal' tomorrow to avoid being defeated twice running. Same logic, she'll have to vote for the extension request on Thursday. Finally events have forced her into the opposite lobby from her nutters.

    May who once claimed 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.
    She doesn't think her deal is a bad deal. Why should she, or any MP, accept no deal when there is a good or acceptable deal on the table?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    edited March 2019
    Scott_P said:
    Even with all that I'd say probably not...
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    dots said:

    I was wrong. I thought ERG would recognise last chance saloon when in one. I don’t understand.

    The brexit on the table from May and Eu was a hard brexit, not a soft brexit. Brexiteers pushed it all the way to wring out every ounce of hard brexit. But then they didn’t cash in. They didn’t take the lolly. I don’t understand it. I really don’t understand how the ERG could take it all the way to get hardest brexit they are ever going to get, and not bank it. The moment to switch from poker face to walking out with the pot was there, and they didn’t take it. They are now alone at the table with no money on it. I don’t understand them.

    In this years brexit ref it’s 20 million remain, 14 million or less for leave, . It’s a long way back for brexiteers from this moment. tell me I’m wrong. If science is true and unique golden brexit generation is dying off, There may never be a way back for brexit.

    Brexit was hard won. It was there on the table for them to walk off with and they didn’t take it. I don’t understand.

    Well you have been wrong on just about every other number you put up on here so you will certainly be wrong on those ones.

    If there is a referendum I expect Remain will get far fewer votes than last time and Leave will run with an abstention campaign to delegitimise the whole process. After that the country will be ungovernable for the next few decades.
    And Remain will win, and we'll move on and no-one worry too much.

    Most people are not political, they just want the trains to run on time, and to see a doctor easily...
    You are genuinely deluded if you think that. You will be handing power to the extremists and will be lucky to avoid serious civil unrest. The idea that you can give people a vote and then tell them they were wrong and ignore it means you are telling them democracy is a farce.
    Will you be involved in the civil unrest?
    Depends what it is. But as far as I am concerned if we do not abide by the result of the 2016 referendum then democracy no longer functions in this country and people have a right to take whatever action they see fit.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    kle4 said:

    Spare a thought for Cox - he could have gone down as the man who delivered Brexit, if he had been persuaded to change his mind and the DUP and co actually reacted as they suggested they might in those circumstances. Instead he took a decision he knew would spell the end for the efforts of his PM, and quite possibly Brexit as well. The politician vs the lawyer within him must have been a tough battle.

    He has grown in my estimation in the last few weeks.
    His voice is very potent! As was his earning power outside Parliament, I discovered he was the highest paid MP with outside earnings a few weeks ago, a fact I had forgotten.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    DavidL said:

    dots said:

    I was wrong. I thought ERG would recognise last chance saloon when in one. I don’t understand.

    The brexit on the table from May and Eu was a hard brexit, not a soft brexit. Brexiteers pushed it all the way to wring out every ounce of hard brexit. But then they didn’t cash in. They didn’t take the lolly. I don’t understand it. I really don’t understand how the ERG could take it all the way to get hardest brexit they are ever going to get, and not bank it. The moment to switch from poker face to walking out with the pot was there, and they didn’t take it. They are now alone at the table with no money on it. I don’t understand them.

    In this years brexit ref it’s 20 million remain, 14 million or less for leave, . It’s a long way back for brexiteers from this moment. tell me I’m wrong. If science is true and unique golden brexit generation is dying off, There may never be a way back for brexit.

    Brexit was hard won. It was there on the table for them to walk off with and they didn’t take it. I don’t understand.

    Well you have been wrong on just about every other number you put up on here so you will certainly be wrong on those ones.

    If there is a referendum I expect Remain will get far fewer votes than last time and Leave will run with an abstention campaign to delegitimise the whole process. After that the country will be ungovernable for the next few decades.
    And Remain will win, and we'll move on and no-one worry too much.

    Most people are not political, they just want the trains to run on time, and to see a doctor easily...
    You are genuinely deluded if you think that. You will be handing power to the extremists and will be lucky to avoid serious civil unrest. The idea that you can give people a vote and then tell them they were wrong and ignore it means you are telling them democracy is a farce.
    Isn't it?
    It seems it is now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    SeanT said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    I think unilaterally revoking Article 50 is now the only thing we can do, while we figure out what the hell is going on.

    It's the only course of action that doesn't hand control of the agenda to the EU.
    I am forced to agree. Revoke is now, theoretically, the best option. We are internationally embarrassed but we keep the Rebate, opt-outs, everything, & business floods back to London

    Trouble is it also hands the next election to Corbyn.

    Which is worse?
    Corbyn cannot be worse than this. His MPs just need to rein him in better and sought out their anti semitic supporters (and the Tories can focus on their own issues in opposition while they are at it)
This discussion has been closed.