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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As we approach the slightly later than planned day of reckonin

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  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:


    Bollocks

    Malign individuals deliberately misrepresented what she meant by “citizens of nowhere” - it was tax-dodging individuals and companies not ordinary Remain voters. Sadly people like you fell for it.

    That's bollocks. I watched the speech live in its entirety. I have never dodged a penny in tax. I heard the speech as a petty-minded attack on people who are open to the world, and I can tell you that work colleagues and friends heard it in exactly those terms too. People from abroad who have made their home here and pay their taxes told me they never imagined they'd hear a British PM say something like that. It was a watershed moment for many (not me, I've had May's number for years).
    But we also value something else: the spirit of citizenship.

    That spirit that means you respect the bonds and obligations that make our society work. That means a commitment to the men and women who live around you, who work for you, who buy the goods and services you sell.

    That spirit that means recognising the social contract that says you train up local young people before you take on cheap labour from overseas.

    That spirit that means you do as others do, and pay your fair share of tax.

    But today, too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street.

    But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.

    So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff…

    An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra…

    A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism…

    A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…

    I’m putting you on warning. This can’t go on anymore.

    A change has got to come. And this party – the Conservative Party – is going to make that change.


    You thought that was aimed at you?
    I believe I am a citizen of the world. So yes.
    So you “have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people [you] employ, the people [you] pass in the street”?
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    It would be nice, as a thought exercise, to see if there's really any common ground between hardcore remainers and leavers on PB, on even the blandest and most inoffensive aspirations. For example, we appear to both want the country to be wealthy. We appear to both want the country to be outward looking. Perhaps there are more examples of common ground.

    There is plenty of evidence that a lot of Leavers want the country to be inward looking and are willing to sacrifice wealth for leaving the EU. So even your bland examples fall down.
    I don't want to rehearse the arguments, but I don't know any leaver who thinks we will be poorer in the long term. We just have very different views on the optimal circumstances for wealth creation. At any rate, we must concede that we can potentially prosper inside or outside, it would be silly to argue otherwise.

    Perhaps leavers do want us to be more inward looking as a trend than outward looking.

    Perhaps there is more common ground in that both groups are in favour of rigorously upholding the law.
    I don’t notice that either. In the last two years Leavers have labelled judges enemies of the people and sought to abolish the House of Lords when they acted in a manner Leavers didn’t like.
    Some leavers - others thought they were doing their jobs
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    I've got it on CD somewhere. Haven't played it since 1998 or thereabouts.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Pulpstar said:

    A week to go till the Tories insane porno ban isnt it ?

    That, and the compulsory organ harvesting of the dead, have been the two things that have driven me closer to resigning my membership than anything else.
  • AndyJS said:

    Very strange — the total number of signatures has increased several times but Bristol West has been stuck on 23,087.

    Not strange at all, Andy. Everyone in Bristol West who wanted to sign has now done so and they've all gone down the pub.

    It is Friday, you know.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A week to go till the Tories insane porno ban isnt it ?

    It is not a porno ban, just an age vericatio requirement to access it e.g. with driving license etc which 67% of the public supports

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/technology/articles-reports/2019/03/18/britains-porn-watchers-likely-be-caught-their-pant
    It is indeed. It is an obviously wise measure designed to protect ourselves from the sight of unseemly things that may give us funny ideas. And I'm sure absolutely nobody will Google "top ten free VPNs" and hence obtain software that would enable one to bypass such wise and noble safeguards. That would be terrible.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    I see only problems. First, and most importantly, the MPs lied about honouring the referendum. It may be un-parliamentary language but it's the truth. They mouthed platitudes because they didn't want to be seen to be undemocratic, but there's no way they'd let it go through when they could obstruct it.

    More unforgivable is the pretence. The fault-line has been exposed, and perhaps the proud confident morning never existed. The cabal has spoken, we have representative democracy without representation. So be it. There are honourable exceptions, but they are few. MPs think they have won, but it's all based on a lie.

    I never had great faith in politicians, but now, I actively distrust them. Expenses … mere greed, but dishonesty is unforgivable, and childish dishonesty even worse.

    I'm not important in the great scheme of things, the useless of lump of lard we have has an MP can sleep soundly. I never go on marches or sign petitions, but if I feel this way, there will be many more.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:


    Bollocks

    Malign individuals deliberately misrepresented what she meant by “citizens of nowhere” - it was tax-dodging individuals and companies not ordinary Remain voters. Sadly people like you fell for it.

    That's bollocks. I watched the speech live in its entirety. I have never dodged a penny in tax. I heard the speech as a petty-minded attack on people who are open to the world, and I can tell you that work colleagues and friends heard it in exactly those terms too. People from abroad who have made their home here and pay their taxes told me they never imagined they'd hear a British PM say something like that. It was a watershed moment for many (not me, I've had May's number for years).
    Here you go:

    But we also value something else: the spirit of citizenship.

    That spirit that means you respect the bonds and obligations that make our society work. That means a commitment to the men and women who live around you, who work for you, who buy the goods and services you sell.

    That spirit that means recognising the social contract that says you train up local young people before you take on cheap labour from overseas.

    That spirit that means you do as others do, and pay your fair share of tax.

    But today, too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street.

    But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.

    So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff…

    An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra…

    A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism…

    A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…

    I’m putting you on warning. This can’t go on anymore.

    A change has got to come. And this party – the Conservative Party – is going to make that change.


    Charles was entirely right. It's a disgrace that so many people have chosen to misrepresent what Theresa May said.
    "Patriots should stop hating people from other countries."

    See a problem with that statement? I said "patriots", but I meant "xenophobes". I bet that people who self-identify as patriots but dislike xenophobia would be pretty unhappy about hearing that, right? So how do you think somebody who self-identifies as "citizen of the world" but doesn't like tax-dodging would feel about what May said?
    It was a defined term by May

    I don’t think I’d ever heard it used before she did
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A week to go till the Tories insane porno ban isnt it ?

    It is not a porno ban, just an age vericatio requirement to access it e.g. with driving license etc which 67% of the public supports

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/technology/articles-reports/2019/03/18/britains-porn-watchers-likely-be-caught-their-pant
    People will find a way round it via the dark web rather than do that.

    Which will make the “problem” worse.

    Stupid stupid decision.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Pulpstar said:

    Can Graham Brady receive letters again yet ?

    Can the 1922 Committee be lobbied to change the rules?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    May's letter ends with desperate semi apology about upsetting MPs with her mad live speech at the podium.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,349
    edited March 2019

    It would be nice, as a thought exercise, to see if there's really any common ground between hardcore remainers and leavers on PB, on even the blandest and most inoffensive aspirations. For example, we appear to both want the country to be wealthy. We appear to both want the country to be outward looking. Perhaps there are more examples of common ground.

    There is plenty of evidence that a lot of Leavers want the country to be inward looking and are willing to sacrifice wealth for leaving the EU. So even your bland examples fall down.
    The forgotten bit of the problem is that the overwhelming majority of remainers and leavers are centrist political moderates, for that is the political species the UK specialises in. Those millions have loads of aspirations in common, and have no plans to talk about it outside the pub, the shed and the dinner table. Brexit has, somewhat uniquely, galvanised harmless moderates into a number of competing camps whose spokespeople (like PB commenters) are not remotely typical.

    The takeover of both Labour and Tory parties by ludicrous extremists is not at all representative of the 31million, nearly all centrist moderates, who voted in the referendum; it also means of course that normal people won't want to join them to sit at their ridiculous and bone headed committee meetings. This is a serious problem, but, as with Brexit, the existence of a problem does not imply the existence of a solution.

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,916

    "Patriots should stop hating people from other countries."

    See a problem with that statement? I said "patriots", but I meant "xenophobes". I bet that people who self-identify as patriots but dislike xenophobia would be pretty unhappy about hearing that, right? So how do you think somebody who self-identifies as "citizen of the world" but doesn't like tax-dodging would feel about what May said?

    Oh, it was a silly speech. That's no reason to take one phrase out of context and try to pretend it referred to people that it quite unambiguously didn't refer to.
    You can hardly call it unambiguous if different people watched the same speech and took entirely different messages from it. It's all part and parcel of May's repulsive provincial Little Englander mindset. It is also of course the most breathtaking hypocrisy as the Tory party exists to enable the kind of people May was referring to, or "our donors" as she calls them behind closed doors.
    Of course it's unambiguous. She helpfully gives a bunch of examples of what she means,and she explains exactly what the context is.

    Sure, people who dislike her or dislike the Tories or hate Brexit decided to take offence by deliberately misunderstanding or (more likely) not even bothering to find out what she actually said. And it's true that a smarter politician would have been careful to give them less scope for such misrepresentation. But it's still misrepresentation.
    If you want to tell yourself that and ignore the fact that the comment alienated many people, including some who until recently were natural Conservative supporters, be my guest. The speech has a clear xenophobic subtext. It suggests that foreigners can only exist as either a sinister elite or as a threatening mass of cheap labour. Never as co-workers, friends, or members of your family. Stick to your own kind. It was classic dog-whistle politics. Classic May.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    Pulpstar said:

    Can Graham Brady receive letters again yet ?

    Can the 1922 Committee be lobbied to change the rules?
    Mercer is already trying over the need for only 2 candidates to be put to membership.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    AndyJS said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    I've got it on CD somewhere. Haven't played it since 1998 or thereabouts.
    I blame TSE. I’m enjoying it.

    What’s wrong with me?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    AndyJS said:

    Very strange — the total number of signatures has increased several times but Bristol West has been stuck on 23,087.

    Not strange at all, Andy. Everyone in Bristol West who wanted to sign has now done so and they've all gone down the pub.

    It is Friday, you know.
    Maybe they've all set off for the rally in That There London......
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Surely if there's a no confidence vote next week some tories would be tempted to abstain but what kind of psychopath would actually want to be PM right now?

    Boris?
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    I'm arguing neither of those things. When Leavers are still painting themselves in woad and labelling anyone

    No. You said very simply that you have no interest in making the democratic choice of the country workable

    Your arrogance is distasteful, sir
    If you don't think it's workable as secured there is no moral requirement to engage in a fools' errand, especially one won in such a malign fashion. If those who won the referendum have no interest in your perspective, there is no moral requirement to offer it when it is unwanted.

    You can't force people who think that the chosen course of action is malign and idiotic to assist you. You especially can't force them if you're calling them quislings and doubting their patriotism.
    There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.
    To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.
    Optimise the outcome *for the country* within the constraints set. Not the same.

    For example I believe it was a tragedy that Ireland was ever divided. But now it has been, so long as NI wants to remain part of the U.K. it should be able to.

    And I will work to optimise the outcome for the U.K. within the constraint of a divided island.
    But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.
    To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.
    That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.

    It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
    His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosper
    Thank you for your assistance Charles but I've always found Alastair articulates his own views perfectly well.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Doesn't look like they'll bother tabling MV3. Will just get on with the indicative votes and see what those yield?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,916
    Charles said:



    It was a defined term by May

    I don’t think I’d ever heard it used before she did

    You've never watched Casablanca? Shameful.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:


    Bollocks

    Malign individuals deliberately misrepresented what she meant by “citizens of nowhere” - it was tax-dodging individuals and companies not ordinary Remain voters. Sadly people like you fell for it.

    That's bollocks. I watched the speech live in its entirety. I have never dodged a penny in tax. I heard the speech as a petty-minded attack on people who are open to the world, and I can tell you that work colleagues and friends heard it in exactly those terms too. People from abroad who have made their home here and pay their taxes told me they never imagined they'd hear a British PM say something like that. It was a watershed moment for many (not me, I've had May's number for years).
    But we also value something else: the spirit of citizenship.

    That spirit that means you respect the bonds and obligations that make our society work. That means a commitment to the men and women who live around you, who work for you, who buy the goods and services you sell.

    That spirit that means recognising the social contract that says you train up local young people before you take on cheap labour from overseas.

    That spirit that means you do as others do, and pay your fair share of tax.

    But today, too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street.

    But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.

    So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff…

    An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra…

    A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism…

    A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…

    I’m putting you on warning. This can’t go on anymore.

    A change has got to come. And this party – the Conservative Party – is going to make that change.


    You thought that was aimed at you?
    I believe I am a citizen of the world. So yes.
    First time I've ever seen the full text. It's obscene.
    Genuine question: which bit?

    The first 4 paragraphs are, IMV, fairly close to apple pie.

    The 4 specific examples seem self-evidently examples of bad behaviour

    It’s only paragraphs 5 & 6 that could be remotely controversial
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A week to go till the Tories insane porno ban isnt it ?

    It is not a porno ban, just an age vericatio requirement to access it e.g. with driving license etc which 70% of the public supports
    Watch that percentage drop like a stone as a big chunk of the adult male population realises they need to tell the government before they have a hand shandy.
    You think the numbers will droop?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    It would be nice, as a thought exercise, to see if there's really any common ground between hardcore remainers and leavers on PB, on even the blandest and most inoffensive aspirations. For example, we appear to both want the country to be wealthy. We appear to both want the country to be outward looking. Perhaps there are more examples of common ground.

    There is plenty of evidence that a lot of Leavers want the country to be inward looking and are willing to sacrifice wealth for leaving the EU. So even your bland examples fall down.
    I don't want to rehearse the arguments, but I don't know any leaver who thinks we will be poorer in the long term. We just have very different views on the optimal circumstances for wealth creation. At any rate, we must concede that we can potentially prosper inside or outside, it would be silly to argue otherwise.

    Perhaps leavers do want us to be more inward looking as a trend than outward looking.

    Perhaps there is more common ground in that both groups are in favour of rigorously upholding the law.
    I don’t notice that either. In the last two years Leavers have labelled judges enemies of the people and sought to abolish the House of Lords when they acted in a manner Leavers didn’t like.
    Some leavers - others thought they were doing their jobs
    And they remained mute, pandering to the extremists, just as I explained in the thread header. The self-defining Leave moderates are a central part of the problem.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,710
    edited March 2019

    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Can Graham Brady receive letters again yet ?

    He can receive letters but they can't be officially tallied until 12 months after the previous vote of confidence.
    Would be interesting if 51% of MPs signed an open letter calling for her to go.

    Though I imagine to get to 51% might take some payroll vote MPs so that probably can't happen.
    Walking into an empty Cabinet meeting might give her a subtle hint, but would she take the hint?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited March 2019

    Pulpstar said:

    Can Graham Brady receive letters again yet ?

    Can the 1922 Committee be lobbied to change the rules?
    Yes of course.

    The thing about Theresa being "safe" for a year is a red-herring. If the Cabinet and PCP decided they wanted her out a way would be found...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    matt said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.
    You wot?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    ERG gambling on No Deal. They may be right, who knows.

    But, if we get soft Brexit or no Brexit, I don't want to hear any crap from Leavers about how it was stolen from them by remainer elite.

    Your side - your most passionate side - did this. They threw it away.

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1109172031197724677
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    And now, to football.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    If you don't think it's workable as secured there is no moral requirement to engage in a fools' errand, especially one won in such a malign fashion. If those who won the referendum have no interest in your perspective, there is no moral requirement to offer it when it is unwanted.

    You can't force people who think that the chosen course of action is malign and idiotic to assist you. You especially can't force them if you're calling them quislings and doubting their patriotism.

    There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.
    To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.
    Optimise the outcome *for the country* within the constraints set. Not the same.

    For example I believe it was a tragedy that Ireland was ever divided. But now it has been, so long as NI wants to remain part of the U.K. it should be able to.

    And I will work to optimise the outcome for the U.K. within the constraint of a divided island.
    But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.
    To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.
    That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.

    It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
    His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosper
    I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.

    I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
    That’s changing your original statement.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited March 2019

    matt said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.
    You wot?
    Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.

    To clarify, I don’t understand why people would pay for specific songs/albums to be permanently available when one can have a library at all times.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    matt said:

    matt said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.
    You wot?
    Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.
    Cleese. Milligan. Everett.

    Sessions.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    If you don't think it's workable as secured there is no moral requirement to engage in a fools' errand, especially one won in such a malign fashion. If those who won the referendum have no interest in your perspective, there is no moral requirement to offer it when it is unwanted.

    You can't force people who think that the chosen course of action is malign and idiotic to assist you. You especially can't force them if you're calling them quislings and doubting their patriotism.

    There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.
    To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.
    .
    But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.
    To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.
    That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.

    It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
    His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosper
    I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.

    I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
    I still don’t understand your xeno argument. You voted remain. If some leading remainer had started being xenophobic saying Europe was superior to Africa would you have voted for Leave? It just doesn’t make sense. Unless you are saying all 17.4m leave voters contributed to it or distributed or were somehow involved.

    It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    I'm arguing neither of those things. When Leavers are still painting themselves in woad and labelling anyone

    Your arrogance is distasteful, sir
    If you don't think it's workable as secured there is no moral requirement to engage in a fools' errand, especially one won in such a malign fashion. If those who won the referendum have no interest in your perspective, there is no moral requirement to offer it when it is unwanted.

    You can't force people who think that the chosen course of action is malign and idiotic to assist you. You especially can't force them if you're calling them quislings and doubting their patriotism.
    There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.
    To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.
    Optimise the outcome *for the country* within the constraints set. Not the same.

    For example I believe it was a tragedy that Ireland was ever divided. But now it has been, so long as NI wants to remain part of the U.K. it should be able to.

    And I will work to optimise the outcome for the U.K. within the constraint of a divided island.
    But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.
    To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.
    That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.

    It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
    His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosper
    Thank you for your assistance Charles but I've always found Alastair articulates his own views perfectly well.
    He’s wriggling and pretending he said something different to his actual statement because I called him out on it.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    HYUFD said:

    As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all

    One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    ERG gambling on No Deal. They may be right, who knows.

    But, if we get soft Brexit or no Brexit, I don't want to hear any crap from Leavers about how it was stolen from them by remainer elite.

    Your side - your most passionate side - did this. They threw it away.

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1109172031197724677

    Agree entirely with this assessment.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    "Patriots should stop hating people from other countries."

    See a problem with that statement? I said "patriots", but I meant "xenophobes". I bet that people who self-identify as patriots but dislike xenophobia would be pretty unhappy about hearing that, right? So how do you think somebody who self-identifies as "citizen of the world" but doesn't like tax-dodging would feel about what May said?

    Oh, it was a silly speech. That's no reason to take one phrase out of context and try to pretend it referred to people that it quite unambiguously didn't refer to.
    You can hardly call it unambiguous if different people watched the same speech and took entirely different messages from it. It's all part and parcel of May's repulsive provincial Little Englander mindset. It is also of course the most breathtaking hypocrisy as the Tory party exists to enable the kind of people May was referring to, or "our donors" as she calls them behind closed doors.
    Of course it's unambiguous. She helpfully gives a bunch of examples of what she means,and she explains exactly what the context is.

    Sure, people who dislike her or dislike the Tories or hate Brexit decided to take offence by deliberately misunderstanding or (more likely) not even bothering to find out what she actually said. And it's true that a smarter politician would have been careful to give them less scope for such misrepresentation. But it's still misrepresentation.
    If you want to tell yourself that and ignore the fact that the comment alienated many people, including some who until recently were natural Conservative supporters, be my guest. The speech has a clear xenophobic subtext. It suggests that foreigners can only exist as either a sinister elite or as a threatening mass of cheap labour. Never as co-workers, friends, or members of your family. Stick to your own kind. It was classic dog-whistle politics. Classic May.
    Nonsense. 2+2 is unambiguous irrespective of the number of people who "take the message" 3 or 5 from it. The speech was misinterpreted by those who wanted to misinterpret it and/or had had its contents selectively misreported to them.

    And by the way you absolutely cannot admit to regarding yourself as a citizen of the world without sounding like a deranged Austin Powers.

    But I agree that May is an absolutely dreadful woman.
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662

    HYUFD said:

    As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all

    One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.
    Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718
    edited March 2019
    YouGov finds a close connection between US Republican voters and UK Leave voters on the issue of trade negotiations.

    US Republicans by 44% to 42% and UK Leave voters by 48% to 36% say the most important thing in trade deals is to get a good deal for their country even if the other side feels they have not got a good deal.

    By contrast UK Remainers by 57% to 26%, UK Labour voters by 50% to 31%, US Democrats by 68% to 14% and US Independents by 51% to 30% say the most important thing in trade talks is to get the most mutually beneficial deal for both sides.

    UK Tory voters are split 43% to 43%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/03/22/leave-voters-would-risk-alienating-allies-best-tra
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    matt said:

    matt said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.
    You wot?
    Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.

    To clarify, I don’t understand why people would pay for specific songs/albums to be permanently available when one can have a library at all times.
    Oxfam - CDs and vinyl
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    It would be nice, as a thought exercise, to see if there's really any common ground between hardcore remainers and leavers on PB, on even the blandest and most inoffensive aspirations. For example, we appear to both want the country to be wealthy. We appear to both want the country to be outward looking. Perhaps there are more examples of common ground.

    There is plenty of evidence that a lot of Leavers want the country to be inward looking and are willing to sacrifice wealth for leaving the EU. So even your bland examples fall down.
    I don't want to rehearse the arguments, but I don't know any leaver who thinks we will be poorer in the long term. We just have very different views on the optimal circumstances for wealth creation. At any rate, we must concede that we can potentially prosper inside or outside, it would be silly to argue otherwise.

    Perhaps leavers do want us to be more inward looking as a trend than outward looking.

    Perhaps there is more common ground in that both groups are in favour of rigorously upholding the law.
    I don’t notice that either. In the last two years Leavers have labelled judges enemies of the people and sought to abolish the House of Lords when they acted in a manner Leavers didn’t like.
    Some leavers - others thought they were doing their jobs
    And they remained mute, pandering to the extremists, just as I explained in the thread header. The self-defining Leave moderates are a central part of the problem.
    you get madder by the day
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:



    There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.

    To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.
    .
    But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.
    To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.
    That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.

    It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
    His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosper
    I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.

    I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
    I still don’t understand your xeno argument. You voted remain. If some leading remainer had started being xenophobic saying Europe was superior to Africa would you have voted for Leave? It just doesn’t make sense. Unless you are saying all 17.4m leave voters contributed to it or distributed or were somehow involved.

    It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
    The referendum was won by frightening people with a lie that millions of Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That incidentally dictated the parameters of the Brexit settlement to follow, which is a separate disaster. It wasn’t a regrettable intrusion into the debate. It was the basis of the whole campaign.

    And almost without exception Leaver advocates saw this as an acceptable price to pay to secure the victory.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all

    One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.
    Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).
    Well then we would have known that 3 months ago and would have had time to try something else.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236

    It would be nice, as a thought exercise, to see if there's really any common ground between hardcore remainers and leavers on PB, on even the blandest and most inoffensive aspirations. For example, we appear to both want the country to be wealthy. We appear to both want the country to be outward looking. Perhaps there are more examples of common ground.

    Unsarcastically and entirely seriously, we don't share the same definition of "the country" @Charles (and several others) define it as an identity, others have dual passports or non-British passports and can only be described as "patriot-fluid", whereas I define it as a responsibility: it provided me with certain things and on return I am obliged to do certain things for it, which I do. This means I have more in common with say, @Casino_Royale and @Big_G_NorthWales than with say @Roger despite my Remainerdom. That fault line prevents us from forming a coherent demos.

    Incidentally this is why I don't think Matthew Goodwin's idea of a National Conservative gap will bear fruit: his three tribes (the poor, the retired, wealthy social conservatives) have incompatible aims.

    One piece of irony I do like, tho. It appears that Brexit is eating up so much headspace in government time that the Culture War that nonBritish funded sites such as ReasonUK and TurningPointUK are trying to roll out across the UK appears to be gaming little purchase. It's too early to tell and a tsunami of nutter cash may yet win, but I live in hope.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:



    There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.

    To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.
    .
    But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.
    To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.
    That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.

    It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
    His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosper
    I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.

    I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
    I still don’t understand your xeno argument. You voted remain. If some leading remainer had started being xenophobic saying Europe was superior to Africa would you have voted for Leave? It just doesn’t make sense. Unless you are saying all 17.4m leave voters contributed to it or distributed or were somehow involved.

    It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
    The referendum was won by frightening people with a lie that millions of Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That incidentally dictated the parameters of the Brexit settlement to follow, which is a separate disaster. It wasn’t a regrettable intrusion into the debate. It was the basis of the whole campaign.

    And almost without exception Leaver advocates saw this as an acceptable price to pay to secure the victory.
    the bus, the russians, the turks

    anything but the cebtral fact Remain ran a shit campaign selling an unpopular product to an electorate they did not understand

    and still dont
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    matt said:

    matt said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.
    You wot?
    Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.

    To clarify, I don’t understand why people would pay for specific songs/albums to be permanently available when one can have a library at all times.
    Oxfam - CDs and vinyl
    Oxfam know what they have got. Most other charity shops don't.....
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    matt said:

    matt said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.
    You wot?
    Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.

    To clarify, I don’t understand why people would pay for specific songs/albums to be permanently available when one can have a library at all times.
    Well hmv has only just gone bust with a business model whereby people physically travel through actual meatspace to buy content on physical media. How did that work?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    ERG gambling on No Deal. They may be right, who knows.

    But, if we get soft Brexit or no Brexit, I don't want to hear any crap from Leavers about how it was stolen from them by remainer elite.

    Your side - your most passionate side - did this. They threw it away.

    The ERG are no more representative of the average Leaver — just look at JRM! — than Momentum are representative of the average Labour voter.

    This is a problem with political parties losing wider public support and becoming the play things of political fundamentalists. I am sure that there is a lesson to be learnt here, but I'm not entirely sure what it is, and I have no faith that it will be discovered and acted upon.
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all

    One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.
    Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).
    Well then we would have known that 3 months ago and would have had time to try something else.
    Fair point; although it does beg the question 'what else'?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all

    One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.
    Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).
    Even if May's vote "wins", lots of people will still find a good reason not to support it.....
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    .

    But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.
    To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.
    That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.

    It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
    His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosper
    I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.

    I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
    I still don’t understand your xeno argument. You voted remain. If some leading remainer had started being xenophobic saying Europe was superior to Africa would you have voted for Leave? It just doesn’t make sense. Unless you are saying all 17.4m leave voters contributed to it or distributed or were somehow involved.

    It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
    The referendum was won by frightening people with a lie that millions of Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That incidentally dictated the parameters of the Brexit settlement to follow, which is a separate disaster. It wasn’t a regrettable intrusion into the debate. It was the basis of the whole campaign.

    And almost without exception Leaver advocates saw this as an acceptable price to pay to secure the victory.
    the bus, the russians, the turks

    anything but the cebtral fact Remain ran a shit campaign selling an unpopular product to an electorate they did not understand

    and still dont
    At some point you’re going to have to start wondering why your complacent assumption that it would all settle down with little fuss was so utterly wrong. In the meantime, carry on with the displacement activity.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    glw said:

    ERG gambling on No Deal. They may be right, who knows.

    But, if we get soft Brexit or no Brexit, I don't want to hear any crap from Leavers about how it was stolen from them by remainer elite.

    Your side - your most passionate side - did this. They threw it away.

    The ERG are no more representative of the average Leaver — just look at JRM! — than Momentum are representative of the average Labour voter.

    This is a problem with political parties losing wider public support and becoming the play things of political fundamentalists. I am sure that there is a lesson to be learnt here, but I'm not entirely sure what it is, and I have no faith that it will be discovered and acted upon.
    ERG Holdouts are barely 5% of MPs.

    If we crash out with No Deal, the 95% will need to look at their consciences.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    TudorRose said:

    Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).

    That would be hilarious, hopefully at that point after elmininating all other options Parliament will actually back the damn thing, so tha we can move on to arguing about the free trade deal.

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr Rentool,

    "Well then we would have known that 3 months ago."

    I think you pinpoint the problem here. You concentrate on what the MPs want. They want to remain, despite them saying otherwise. If the Scots were to vote for independence, they need to remember they can leave only if the MPs approve.


  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,349

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    If you don't think it's workable as secured there is no moral requirement to engage in a fools' errand, especially one won in such a malign fashion. If those who won the referendum have no interest in your perspective, there is no moral requirement to offer it when it is unwanted.

    You can't force people who think that the chosen course of action is malign and idiotic to assist you. You especially can't force them if you're calling them quislings and doubting their patriotism.

    There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.
    To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.
    .
    But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.
    To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.
    That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.

    It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
    His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosper
    I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.

    I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
    I still don’t understand your xeno argument. You voted remain. If some leading remainer had started being xenophobic saying Europe was superior to Africa would you have voted for Leave? It just doesn’t make sense. Unless you are saying all 17.4m leave voters contributed to it or distributed or were somehow involved.

    It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
    Absolutely spot on. Both campaigns were rubbish. Generalising about voters is pretty futile, but we do know that most voters are moderates.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all

    One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.
    Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).
    If Government whips on all options you could be right. Party before Country is in Tin Ears DNA
  • One day, when I am able to look back on this with the pleasure of distance, Uri Geller's intervention may be a personal highlight:

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2097200947043549&id=516762978420695
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,681
    AndyJS said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    I've got it on CD somewhere. Haven't played it since 1998 or thereabouts.
    Oh dear
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,681
    CD13 said:

    Mr Rentool,

    "Well then we would have known that 3 months ago."

    I think you pinpoint the problem here. You concentrate on what the MPs want. They want to remain, despite them saying otherwise. If the Scots were to vote for independence, they need to remember they can leave only if the MPs approve.


    You wish
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    TudorRose said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all

    One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.
    Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).
    Well then we would have known that 3 months ago and would have had time to try something else.
    Fair point; although it does beg the question 'what else'?
    What else? A general election in February - winner takes all in the Brexit stakes.

    Too late now of course.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:


    Bollocks

    Malign individuals deliberately misrepresented what she meant by “citizens of nowhere” - it was tax-dodging individuals and companies not ordinary Remain voters. Sadly people like you fell for it.

    That's bollocks. I watched the speech live in its entirety. I have never dodged a penny in tax. I heame they never imagined they'd hear a British PM say something like that. It was a watershed moment for many (not me, I've had May's number for years).
    But we also value something else: the spirit of citizenship.

    T
    An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra…

    A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism…

    A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…

    I’m putting you on warning. This can’t go on anymore.

    A change has got to come. And this party – the Conservative Party – is going to make that change.


    You thought that was aimed at you?
    I believe I am a citizen of the world. So yes.
    First time I've ever seen the full text. It's obscene.
    Genuine question: which bit?

    The first 4 paragraphs are, IMV, fairly close to apple pie.

    The 4 specific examples seem self-evidently examples of bad behaviour

    It’s only paragraphs 5 & 6 that could be remotely controversial
    Until this evening I had never really understood what she meant by 'citizens of the world' but never really thought about it much. Seemed to me it could be taken one of two ways and I didn't know which but wasn't very interested. Now I see it in context it reads as an insult. How dare she imply I don't know the meaning of citizenship! I value it highly, and wish we emphasised it more in our culture in much the way I know Americans and Canadians do. This does not however prevent me from embracing other cultures, and being inclusive and international in my outlook. On the contrary, my grounding in British culture makes it easier for me to engage positively with others beyond this country. In that respect I regard myself as both a citizen of the world as well as of the UK. Far from it being an insult, I would regard it as a compliment.

    This is clearly not what she had in mind , however, and the distance between us could not be greater. Now that I have seen the context, I find her use of the phrase squalid, insular, petty, narrow-minded - in short, obscene. But chacun a son gout, Charles.

    Bonsoir.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    .

    But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.
    To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.
    That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.

    It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
    His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosper
    I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.

    I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
    I still don’t understand your xeno ar involved.

    It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
    The referendum was won by fn.

    And almost without exception Leaver advocates saw this as an acceptable price to pay to secure the victory.
    the bus, the russians, the turks

    anything but the cebtral fact Remain ran a shit campaign selling an unpopular product to an electorate they did not understand

    and still dont
    At some point you’re going to have to start wondering why your complacent assumption that it would all settle down with little fuss was so utterly wrong. In the meantime, carry on with the displacement activity.
    Im still fairly relaxed about the whole thing as are most of the population, most of the moaning is now plain frustration from an electorate fed up our politicians cant manage to agree a fairly straightforward treaty

    asfor displacement. maybe you should give it a try, youve been trolling the same old arguments for 2 years and still cant make them stick. Einstein etc
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    ERG gambling on No Deal. They may be right, who knows.

    But, if we get soft Brexit or no Brexit, I don't want to hear any crap from Leavers about how it was stolen from them by remainer elite.

    Your side - your most passionate side - did this. They threw it away.

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1109172031197724677

    Others were always resistant, but the ERG have ensured that resistance will succeed. I hope they are happy.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr g,

    "You wish."

    In fact, I don't. What makes you think Scots are immune to the same forces that obstructed Leave. I wish you well, but unless the MPs are on your side (remember they will lie through their teeth), you'll never see the finishing line.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,681
    CD13 said:

    Mr g,

    "You wish."

    In fact, I don't. What makes you think Scots are immune to the same forces that obstructed Leave. I wish you well, but unless the MPs are on your side (remember they will lie through their teeth), you'll never see the finishing line.

    I agree but they will have no option, you cannot hold people prisoners in a dictatorship. International law says a country has the right to self determination , it is a union of equals, they can try but all they will do is ensure it happens.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited March 2019
    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    I've got it on CD somewhere. Haven't played it since 1998 or thereabouts.
    Oh dear
    Evening Malc! :)

    I've decided that whatever those headless chickens in Westminster say I'm still leaving the EU one week tonight at 11pm. :D
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236

    matt said:

    matt said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.
    You wot?
    Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.
    Cleese. Milligan. Everett.

    Sessions.
    Brooke-Taylor. Garden. Oddie.

    Cricklewood.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    HYUFD said:

    As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all

    One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.
    Because they are all going to be rejected by a majority of MPs.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Charles said:



    To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.

    That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.

    It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
    His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosper
    I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.

    I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
    I still don’t understand your xeno ar involved.

    It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
    The referendum was won by fn.

    And almost without exception Leaver advocates saw this as an acceptable price to pay to secure the victory.
    the bus, the russians, the turks

    anything but the cebtral fact Remain ran a shit campaign selling an unpopular product to an electorate they did not understand

    and still dont
    At some point you’re going to have to start wondering why your complacent assumption that it would all settle down with little fuss was so utterly wrong. In the meantime, carry on with the displacement activity.
    Im still fairly relaxed about the whole thing as are most of the population, most of the moaning is now plain frustration from an electorate fed up our politicians cant manage to agree a fairly straightforward treaty

    asfor displacement. maybe you should give it a try, youve been trolling the same old arguments for 2 years and still cant make them stick. Einstein etc
    You think 3.5 million people signing a petition at light speed are relaxed? Or the 90% who see this as a national humiliation? Curious.

    As Brexit falls apart, the arguments I put that were once incendiary are now accepted by others as commonplace. One day you’ll have an explanation about what’s going wrong. I’ll wait.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Could be the last throw of the dice for the WA. Doesn't deal with DUP problem though.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1109180176259317761
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    viewcode said:

    matt said:

    matt said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.
    You wot?
    Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.
    Cleese. Milligan. Everett.

    Sessions.
    Brooke-Taylor. Garden. Oddie.

    Cricklewood.
    Jesus. Mary. Joseph.

    Bethlehem.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Norm said:

    Could be the last throw of the dice for the WA. Doesn't deal with DUP problem though.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1109180176259317761

    Even that won't be enough without the DUP - And they're saying:

    NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! :D
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,681
    GIN1138 said:

    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    I've got it on CD somewhere. Haven't played it since 1998 or thereabouts.
    Oh dear
    Evening Malc! :)

    I've decided that whatever those headless chickens in Westminster say I'm still leaving the EU one week tonight at 11pm. :D
    Evening GIN, I am looking forward to rejoining
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718
    edited March 2019

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Can Graham Brady receive letters again yet ?

    He can receive letters but they can't be officially tallied until 12 months after the previous vote of confidence.
    Would be interesting if 51% of MPs signed an open letter calling for her to go.

    Though I imagine to get to 51% might take some payroll vote MPs so that probably can't happen.
    May is irrelevant and given last December's vote cannot be challenged until the Brexit process is over, Parliament is about to take control and move towards BINO as Kwarteng made clear today
    Very hard to imagine parliament voting for any actual version of BINO. I mean, they may vote to do BINO, but once you negotiate an actual thing you still have to pass it, and any gain you make on the left you'll lose on the right.
    At the moment the likeliest thing to pass is May's Deal plus permanent Customs Union (as Labour MPs from Leave seats would be more likely to vote for that than Norway Plus which requires free movement) and which May is said to be ready to propose as one of the proposals for the indicative votes. So all the ERG will have achieved by refusing to vote for May's Deal with a temporary Customs Union backstop is to see the passage of May's Deal with a permanent Customs Union for the whole UK
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    TudorRose said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all

    One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.
    Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).
    Well then we would have known that 3 months ago and would have had time to try something else.
    Fair point; although it does beg the question 'what else'?
    What else? A general election in February - winner takes all in the Brexit stakes.

    Too late now of course.
    A General Election might not be the worst idea. EU can do what they like in the interim. They have to recognise that big wheels beyond their imagination are turning.. (it's our story and we should stick with it)

    Revoking is the worst of all worlds. A Second referendum a close second. But just because there are horrors abroad doesn't mean there's any mandate at all to embrace the slithy tove, Corbyn, and certainly no mandate for him to decide.

    Mostly I hope MPs hold their noses and vote for May's deal. I promise I'll look away and never recall how you voted if you vote yes collectively.



  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236

    viewcode said:

    matt said:

    matt said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.
    You wot?
    Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.
    Cleese. Milligan. Everett.

    Sessions.
    Brooke-Taylor. Garden. Oddie.

    Cricklewood.
    Jesus. Mary. Joseph.

    Bethlehem.
    Neil. Rik. Vyvyan.

    Scumbag College.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited March 2019
    Honest question. Given the law of the land is the UK leaves the EU on 29 March, what legislation is required for May to extended Article 50? Can she just do it, or does she need the House to pass something?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Charles said:



    To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.

    That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.

    It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
    His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosper
    I have no obligation to help Brexit prospt was ok in the circumstances.
    I still don’t understand your xeno ar involved.

    It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
    The referendum was won by fn.

    And almost without extand

    and still dont
    At some point you’re going to have to start wondering why your complacent assumption that it would all settle down with little fuss was so utterly wrong. In the meantime, carry on with the displacement activity.
    Im still fairly relaxed about the whole thing as are most of the population, most of the moaning is now plain frustration from an electorate fed up our politicians cant manage to agree a fairly straightforward treaty

    asfor displacement. maybe you should give it a try, youve been trolling the same old arguments for 2 years and still cant make them stick. Einstein etc
    You think 3.5 million people signing a petition at light speed are relaxed? Or the 90% who see this as a national humiliation? Curious.

    As Brexit falls apart, the arguments I put that were once incendiary are now accepted by others as commonplace. One day you’ll have an explanation about what’s going wrong. I’ll wait.

    I think 3.5 million people is just noise, Paliament has already shown its willingness to ignore the outside world and prioritise itself. As for brexit it is simply an event, for most people it is not the most impoirtant event in their lives family, friends fun will always be more important.

    Only saddos banging on endlessly about Europe continue to make it the most important thing in their agenda which in itself tells you all you need to know about empty lives.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Good goal for England there....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    HYUFD said:
    As I suggested first thing this morning. May needs at least to pretend she is in control of events.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,793
    Dear Theresa,
    To save time for both of us, why not just send your script over and I'll imagine you reciting it at me.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,681

    Good goal for England there....

    But could they cope with kazakhstan
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    MTimT said:

    Honest question. Given the law of the land is the UK leaves the EU on 29 March, what legislation is required for May to extended Article 50? Can she just do it, or does she need the House to pass something?

    That is not the law of the land any more. The changes are already done
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Scott_P said:

    MTimT said:

    Honest question. Given the law of the land is the UK leaves the EU on 29 March, what legislation is required for May to extended Article 50? Can she just do it, or does she need the House to pass something?

    That is not the law of the land any more. The changes are already done
    Without a vote in parliament?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    glw said:

    ERG gambling on No Deal. They may be right, who knows.

    But, if we get soft Brexit or no Brexit, I don't want to hear any crap from Leavers about how it was stolen from them by remainer elite.

    Your side - your most passionate side - did this. They threw it away.

    The ERG are no more representative of the average Leaver — just look at JRM! — than Momentum are representative of the average Labour voter.

    This is a problem with political parties losing wider public support and becoming the play things of political fundamentalists. I am sure that there is a lesson to be learnt here, but I'm not entirely sure what it is, and I have no faith that it will be discovered and acted upon.
    Agreed. Our Buggin's turn electoral system makes it very difficult for anything outside the big 2 to gain any political traction. It therefore becomes far easier and more fruitful for the political extremes to take over one of the main 2.

    That is exactly what has happened to both parties and once in control they need do no more than sit back and wait for their turn to come. Still as in many things the majority seem to think our system is right and all the other 27 PR systems in the EU are wrong. Sigh
  • kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    Scott_P said:

    MTimT said:

    Honest question. Given the law of the land is the UK leaves the EU on 29 March, what legislation is required for May to extended Article 50? Can she just do it, or does she need the House to pass something?

    That is not the law of the land any more. The changes are already done
    no they aren't!!!! A Statutory Instrument is required on the UK side - it will happen and the HoC will approve it but it isn't done yet.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    AndyJS said:

    Without a vote in parliament?

    yes
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968
    I've spend the day wondering how stupid an MP must be to fake invoices.

    Then I go on PB and see someone claiming that twatter gives a better reflection of public opinion than scientific opinion polls.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,300
    MTimT said:

    Honest question. Given the law of the land is the UK leaves the EU on 29 March, what legislation is required for May to extended Article 50? Can she just do it, or does she need the House to pass something?

    The EUWA says a minister can change Exit Day ‘by regulation’, which others on here think requires a simple vote of both Houses (and it was touted for Monday last time I saw). I’d expect only the hardline antis to vote against, no?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:
    As I suggested first thing this morning. May needs at least to pretend she is in control of events.
    With her indicative votes worded to get her desired result?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2019

    I've spend the day wondering how stupid an MP must be to fake invoices.

    Then I go on PB and see someone claiming that twatter gives a better reflection of public opinion than scientific opinion polls.

    As a relative of mine likes to say the average is very low.....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    kingbongo said:

    no they aren't!!!! A Statutory Instrument is required on the UK side - it will happen and the HoC will approve it but it isn't done yet.

    We are not leaving on the 29th,

    That is done.

    The new date has not yet been set
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    viewcode said:

    matt said:

    matt said:

    I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.

    People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.
    You wot?
    Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.
    Cleese. Milligan. Everett.

    Sessions.
    Brooke-Taylor. Garden. Oddie.

    Cricklewood.
    Truth or Dare.

    My Turn.

    I own a Goodies album and 2 Goodies singles.


    Who is next?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    Scott_P said:
    Still a bit of free money at 1.04 available on BFE for no 29/3 no deal exit.
This discussion has been closed.