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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris could once again suffer the curse of being the long term

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  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136


    One thing that puzzles me is how a man who 3 years ago pulled out of the leadership contest declaring that he wasn't the right person for the job now thinks he should be a shoo-in

    Lower expectations?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Miss Cyclefree, point of order: no FTA was negotiated with the EU.

    Quite right: I meant the WA.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    edited April 2019
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    It does look like it will be Boris, they’re that desperate and crazy.

    Given the mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party if the Tories are to beat Corbyn they cannot have any of the current Cabinet leading them in all likelihood, they will all be contaminated by refusing to resign not only after May's Deal but also by staying in the Cabinet after her extensions of Article 50 beyond the planned Brexit Day, only a charismatic hard Brexiteer will do, that means Boris, maybe Raab
    Raab is an egotistical narcissist that resigned over the deal he negotiated and doesn’t know that Dover matters to the UK economy.

    Boris is also an egotistical narcissist, who thinks he’s the reincarnation of Churchill and cultivates a bumbling persona to deflect attention from a two decade long campaign to see himself in number 10. That is all he cares about. The man who wrote two articles, one leave one remain, picking the one to get home closer to number ten.

    Neither are great potential PMs.
    If only they knew it they have the perfect candidate in Justine Greening. A Remainer but unlike all other Tory possibles she looks and sounds human
    Greening will likely shortly defect to join CUK anyway judging by the rumours so she May not even be in the Tories much longer, Greening also has more chance of being the next CUK leader then the next Tory leader
    That's good news. She'd have been wasted staying with the dysfunctional Tories. If Corbyn goes under the proverbial bus it's easy to see a scenario where the Tories are landed with Boris and Labour with McDonnell. The drip to the Tiggers will become a flood and Brexit wont be the only casualty.
    In theory, as the polling shows little sign of a CUK surge at present
    Wouldn't you anticipate a serious number of defections if Boris becomes leader?
    Good riddance most Tory members will say, they would happily trade a few diehard Remainers like Grieve to regain Tory voters lost to the Brexit Party
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    The Tories should stop cocking about then.
  • kle4 said:


    On what prospectus is any leader going to unite the Parliamentary party?

    Renegotiate? Seems to work until you actually have to try and do it. So promise to renegotiate, then call a GE to get a mandate for your renegotiation. If you win you get another 5 years, and hopefully a majority and some political capital that you can spend passing TMay's deal.
    The killer for the Conservatives is that the candidates are all going to have to set out their views on no deal. They can please the membership or they can command the confidence of the House of Commons. They can’t do both.
    This. It's why the focus on May, while warranted due to being crap, feels like a distraction. Tory Members want no deal Brexit, but even if the bulk of their mps agree with that they cannot do anything. Parliament will take control again or god forbid more defect. The only path to no deal is continued paralysis and this time if parliament forces an extension request the EU say no.

    Is that really the plan? Or more unicorn selling?
    Surely it's straightforward for the government to force a no deal even if parliament demands the PM requests an extension. The PM could just tell the EU Council we're going to be as awkward as possible because I don't want this extension I'm being mandated to request and there is no hope of any resolution from our side because parliament and the government are at loggerheads.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Miss Cyclefree, I know, though if an FTA *had* been agreed that would remove the backstop and likely have been passed.

    Mr. kle4, May is a large part of the problem. They should have axed her after the failed election instead of pussyfooting about.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    edited April 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    You miss the other half of what I said. Becoming Prime Minister is not just about becoming Conservative party leader.

    It is dependent on the DUP too at the moment and they are clear they prefer ave also said they prefer to May's Deal and the backstop
    It is dependent on more than the DUP. Two questions for you:

    1) what is the Government’s current majority?

    2) how many Conservative MPs do you think would defect if Boris Johnson became leader?
    1) Excluding Sinnce to pay
    Your counting is atrocious on both fronts. The Conservatives currently have 313 MPs (excluding the Speaker). The DUP have 10. That’s 323.

    Against them there are 246 Labour MPs, 35 SNP MPs, 11 Lib Dems, 10 CUK, 4 Plaid Cymru, 1 Green and 12 other independents. That’s 319. Leaving the Speaker out of ilitate it.
    The Tories won 318 MPs since the general election since when 3 defected to TIG, Allen, Wollaston and Soubry making 315. Boles now sits as an Independent Conservative and would still support May maybe even Boris over Corbyn, as does Grieve who would also support May over Corbyn.

    Add together the DUP and the Tories you still get a clear majority, minus the DUP then you do not. However Corbyn would not get a majority for a general election let alone to become PM without DUP support.

    Whether even 30 Tory MPs moved to CUK is irrelevant as they would still have to VONC the government for it it fall or put Corbyn in as PM
    Well they would if it led to no deal Brexit. Of course they would.
    Given we are in the EU still until October anyway and Cooper Letwin requires the PM by law to seek an extension of Article 50 over No Deal anyway we likely only get No Deal with a general election and a victory for a hard Brexit Tory leader or Farage and the Brexit Party anyway
    A no deal Prime Minister can force no deal. Those opposed to that know that and will act accordingly.
    They can't after the passage of Cooper Letwin into law, the reality is the current Commons will always vote to force an extension aided by Bercow over No Deal. Ironically only Macron vetoing a further extension could allow No Deal without a general election
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Miss Cyclefree, I know, though if an FTA *had* been agreed that would remove the backstop and likely have been passed.

    Mr. kle4, May is a large part of the problem. They should have axed her after the failed election instead of pussyfooting about.

    May is definitely a problem. But they are currently pretending the key facts change if she goes.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    houndtang said:

    What amazes me is the lack of genuine panic in conservatism over the very real prospect of a Corbyn government. Never mind Brexit, Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it. The likes of IDS and Boris will not even hold their seats at the next election if the Tory shambles continues. Unless they get their shit together very quickly the Tories are handing the keys to Downing Street to cultural Marxists who will eradicate every remnant of the England that right wingers hold dear.

    There is an article in the Times this morning saying exactly that.

    The only way to stop Nigel Fucking Farage (it says) is for Tory voters to believe "Vote Farage, get Corbyn"

    I am not sure that will be effective myself.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    And the other side would say that the Tories will slash public spending, allow bosses to exploit workers, side with the US in its imperialist ventures and, well on defence it looks like both sides plan to leave us defenceless.

    I'll ignore both shades of hyperbole.

    Corbyn's flavour of Labour isn't the one I favour, but it still seems preferable to what the Tories are actually doing at the moment.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The idea that a No Deal departure, with all the disruption that will cause, not just in the short-term but to other countries’ willingness to enter into agreements with Britain on anything, should be the preferred option of a significant percentage of a party of government simply shows that the Tories are not fit to be in government.

    The Tories - and the country - need a leader who is prepared to speak some hard truths to them about what is needed for countries to earn their way in the world. Purity tests and a refusal to compromise with anyone outside these shores are the opposite of what is needed. Sadly for them (and us) there is no-one, other than Ken Clarke, with the courage to do this.

    Why do you think it would have any impact on other countries’ willingness to do a deal with the U.K.?

    We’ve abided by Article 50.

    The government couldn’t carry the legislature - that happens. Yes there was a bit of silliness with May voting against her own deal, but foreign politicians understand that political silliness happens sometimes.

    Life goes on. There will be deals on all sorts of things from flights to medicine.
    Why would any country invest the time and effort into negotiating an FTA with Britain when it can have no confidence that such an agreement would get past Parliament? It’s not simply a bit of silliness. It goes to the heart of whether Britain is seen as a sensible, pragmatic, reliable, honourable country to do business with.

    How could it trust Britain to honour its legal obligations when the no-dealers don’t want us to pay a penny of the money we legally owe the EU?

    What sort of a country talks like this, for God’s sake. It may be the Little Britain of Nigel Farage’s dreams. It is not the Britain I want to see or thought I lived in.

    The practical reality is that no country of any trading significance will contemplate a full-blown FTA with the UK until our relationship with the EU is finalised. On that hinges our attractiveness as a trading partner.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    You miss the other half of what I said. Becoming Prime Minister is not just about becoming Conservative party leader.

    It is dependent on the DUP too at the moment and they are clear they prefer ave also said they prefer to May's Deal and the backstop
    It is dependent on more than the DUP. Two questions for you:

    1) what is the Government’s current majority?

    2) how many Conservative MPs do you think would defect if Boris Johnson became leader?
    1) Excluding Sinnce to pay
    Your counting is atrocious on both fronts. The Conservatives currently have 313 MPs (excluding the Speaker). The DUP have 10. That’s 323.

    Against them there are 246 Labour MPs, 35 SNP MPs, 11 Lib Dems, 10 CUK, 4 Plaid Cymru, 1 Green and 12 other independents. That’s 319. Leaving the Speaker out of ilitate it.
    The Tories won 318 MPs since the general election since when 3 defected to TIG, Allen, Wollaston and Soubry making 315. Boles now sits as an Independent Conservative and would still support May maybe even Boris over Corbyn, as does Grieve who would also support May over Corbyn.

    Add together the DUP and the Tories you still get a clear majority, minus the DUP then you do not. However Corbyn would not get a majority for a general election let alone to become PM without DUP support.

    Whether even 30 Tory MPs moved to CUK is irrelevant as they would still have to VONC the government for it it fall or put Corbyn in as PM
    Well they would if it led to no deal Brexit. Of course they would.
    Given we are in the EU still until October anyway and Cooper Letwin requires the PM by law to seek an extension of Article 50 over No Deal anyway we likely only get No Deal with a general election and a victory for a hard Brexit Tory leader or Farage and the Brexit Party anyway
    A no deal Prime Minister can force no deal. Those opposed to that know that and will act accordingly.
    They can't after the passage of Cooper Letwin into law, the reality is the current Commons will alwqys vote to force an extension aided by Bercow over No Deal. Ironically only Macron vetoing a further extension could allow No Deal without a general election
    Quite. Which is not impossible but is not much of a strategy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    kle4 said:


    On what prospectus is any leader going to unite the Parliamentary party?

    Renegotiate? Seems to work until you actually have to try and do it. So promise to renegotiate, then call a GE to get a mandate for your renegotiation. If you win you get another 5 years, and hopefully a majority and some political capital that you can spend passing TMay's deal.
    The killer for the Conservatives is that the candidates are all going to have to set out their views on no deal. They can please the membership or they can command the confidence of the House of Commons. They can’t do both.
    This. It's why the focus on May, while warranted due to being crap, feels like a distraction. Tory Members want no deal Brexit, but even if the bulk of their mps agree with that they cannot do anything. Parliament will take control again or god forbid more defect. The only path to no deal is continued paralysis and this time if parliament forces an extension request the EU say no.

    Is that really the plan? Or more unicorn selling?
    Surely it's straightforward for the government to force a no deal even if parliament demands the PM requests an extension. The PM could just tell the EU Council we're going to be as awkward as possible because I don't want this extension I'm being mandated to request and there is no hope of any resolution from our side because parliament and the government are at loggerheads.
    No, the EU council rejected May's initial extension request as it was too short based on the time Parliament needed and the EU instead gave the UK a longer extension than the PM wanted
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Recidivist, socialism was not a success when the USSR tried it, and it is not a success in Venezuela now.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Tory MPs will have to be very clever in how they vote to keep Bozo out of the final two. I'm not sure that they have the numbers or the competence.

    If they could demonstrate that they would be able to keep Bozo away from the members ballot then maybe the ERG will promote an alternative such as Raaab or McVey.

    One thing that puzzles me is how a man who 3 years ago pulled out of the leadership contest declaring that he wasn't the right person for the job now thinks he should be a shoo-in

    Raab is a lightweight. Those MPs pushing him might wish to look at the person who has been giving him speaking and presentational skills training and his close association with a pro-Putin group in the UK - the Imperial Orthodox Palestine Society. Read the recent reports about it in the Times. There are some very shady characters involved.

    It’s not just Corbyn who has dodgy associations.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,407
    houndtang said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm, well managed government. Personally Hunt looks more likely to deliver this. Boris certainly won't.
    The tories won't be do any governing whether calm, well managed or otherwise if they don't win the imminent GE. Corby will absolutely fucking mangle Rat Eyes in an election campaign.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm,ly won't.
    The tories won't be do any governing whetherction campaign.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    What amazes me is the lack of genuine panic in conservatism over the very real prospect of a Corbyn government. Never mind Brexit, Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it. The likes of IDS and Boris will not even hold their seats at the next election if the Tory shambles continues. Unless they get their shit together very quickly the Tories are handing the keys to Downing Street to cultural Marxists who will eradicate every remnant of the England that right wingers hold dear.
    You make that sound like a bad thing. Eradicating the last vestiges of Empire and the notion of British superiority and everyone else being 'Jonny Foreigner', creating a fairer and more equal society, with public services that are there for the public good, protecting the natural environment and not jumping into every war going would be a darn sight better than the current shambles of a non-government we are being subjected to.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    And the other side would say that the Tories will slash public spending, allow bosses to exploit workers, side with the US in its imperialist ventures and, well on defence it looks like both sides plan to leave us defenceless.

    I'll ignore both shades of hyperbole.

    Corbyn's flavour of Labour isn't the one I favour, but it still seems preferable to what the Tories are actually doing at the moment.
    A Corbyn v Boris battle would at least force voters to make a choice, socialism or hard Brexit
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited April 2019
    Scott_P said:

    houndtang said:

    What amazes me is the lack of genuine panic in conservatism over the very real prospect of a Corbyn government. Never mind Brexit, Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it. The likes of IDS and Boris will not even hold their seats at the next election if the Tory shambles continues. Unless they get their shit together very quickly the Tories are handing the keys to Downing Street to cultural Marxists who will eradicate every remnant of the England that right wingers hold dear.

    There is an article in the Times this morning saying exactly that.

    The only way to stop Nigel Fucking Farage (it says) is for Tory voters to believe "Vote Farage, get Corbyn"

    I am not sure that will be effective myself.
    It kind of worked in 2015, but only fleetingly. In the end it meant bye bye Dave. It probably would have been better for Cameroons had he not won a majority, and better for the country and democracy, if a few more MPs who genuinely wanted to Leave were in the House before the referendum
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756


    One thing that puzzles me is how a man who 3 years ago pulled out of the leadership contest declaring that he wasn't the right person for the job now thinks he should be a shoo-in

    Lower expectations?
    Hardly any expectations.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Mr. Recidivist, socialism was not a success when the USSR tried it, and it is not a success in Venezuela now.

    Yawn.

    Bringing in a minimum wage or raising a tax rate doesn't mean we are on the march to the USSR.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    houndtang said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm, well managed government. Personally Hunt looks more likely to deliver this. Boris certainly won't.
    The tories won't be do any governing whether calm, well managed or otherwise if they don't win the imminent GE. Corby will absolutely fucking mangle Rat Eyes in an election campaign.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm,ly won't.
    The tories won't be do any governing whetherction campaign.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    What amazes me is the lack of genuine panic in conservatism over the very real prospect of a Corbyn government. Never mind Brexit, Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets that right wingers hold dear.
    You make that sound like a bad thing. Eradicating the last vestiges of Empire and the notion of British superiority and everyone else being 'Jonny Foreigner', creating a fairer and more equal society, with public services that are there for the public good, protecting the natural environment and not jumping into every war going would be a darn sight better than the current shambles of a non-government we are being subjected to.
    It would also lead to many of the most talented and highest income earners moving to Singapore and Geneva etc
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,884

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    It does look like it will be Boris, they’re that desperate and crazy.

    Given the mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party if the Tories are to beat Corbyn they cannot have any of the current Cabinet leading them in all likelihood, they will all be contaminated by refusing to resign not only after May's Deal but also by staying in the Cabinet after her extensions of Article 50 beyond the planned Brexit Day, only a charismatic hard Brexiteer will do, that means Boris, maybe Raab
    Raab is an egotistical narcissist that resigned over the deal he negotiated and doesn’t know that Dover matters to the UK economy.

    Boris is also an egotistical narcissist, who thinks he’s the reincarnation of Churchill and cultivates a bumbling persona to deflect attention from a two decade long campaign to see himself in number 10. That is all he cares about. The man who wrote two articles, one leave one remain, picking the one to get home closer to number ten.

    Neither are great potential PMs.
    If only they knew it they have the perfect candidate in Justine Greening. A Remainer but unlike all other Tory possibles she looks and sounds human
    Greening will likely shortly defect to join CUK anyway judging by the rumours so she May not even be in the Tories much longer, Greening also has more chance of being the next CUK leader then the next Tory leader
    That's good news. She'd have been wasted staying with the dysfunctional Tories. If Corbyn goes under the proverbial bus it's easy to see a scenario where the Tories are landed with Boris and Labour with McDonnell. The drip to the Tiggers will become a flood and Brexit wont be the only casualty.
    In theory, as the polling shows little sign of a CUK surge at present
    Wouldn't you anticipate a serious number of defections if Boris becomes leader?
    I am reminded of Brendan Behan, on being told that every hangover destroyed a million brain cells:

    "But only the weak ones....."
    Behan drank himself to death at 40. It's not exactly a winning philosophy.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited April 2019

    houndtang said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm, well managed government. Personally Hunt looks more likely to deliver this. Boris certainly won't.
    The tories won't be do any governing whether calm, well managed or otherwise if they don't win the imminent GE. Corby will absolutely fucking mangle Rat Eyes in an election campaign.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm, well managed government. Personally Hunt looks more likely to deliver this. Boris certainly won't.
    The tories won't be do any governing whether calm, well managed or otherwise if they don't win the imminent GE. Corby will absolutely fucking mangle Rat Eyes in an election campaign.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    What amazes me is the lack of genuine panic in conservatism over the very real prospect of a Corbyn government. Never mind Brexit, Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it. The likes of IDS and Boris will not even hold their seats at the next election if the Tory shambles continues. Unless they get their shit together very quickly the Tories are handing the keys to Downing Street to cultural Marxists who will eradicate every remnant of the England that right wingers hold dear.
    What can Corbyn possibly do that's worse than what we currently have?
    Clearly you have an impoverished imagination. Sadly it’ll soon be all too real.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    And the other side would say that the Tories will slash public spending, allow bosses to exploit workers, side with the US in its imperialist ventures and, well on defence it looks like both sides plan to leave us defenceless.

    I'll ignore both shades of hyperbole.

    Corbyn's flavour of Labour isn't the one I favour, but it still seems preferable to what the Tories are actually doing at the moment.
    A Corbyn v Boris battle would at least force voters to make a choice, socialism or hard Brexit
    Two options that a majority would like to reject. Corbyn might mean both BTW.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Recidivist, we have a minimum wage...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The idea that a No Deal departure, with all the disruption that will cause, not just in the short-term but to other countries’ willingness to enter into agreements with Britain on anything, should be the preferred option of a significant percentage of a party of government simply shows that the Tories are not fit to be in government.

    The Tories - and the country - need a leader who is prepared to speak some hard truths to them about what is needed for countries to earn their way in the world. Purity tests and a refusal to compromise with anyone outside these shores are the opposite of what is needed. Sadly for them (and us) there is no-one, other than Ken Clarke, with the courage to do this.

    Why do you think it would have any impact on other countries’ willingness to do a deal with the U.K.?

    We’ve abided by Article 50.

    The government couldn’t carry the legislature - that happens. Yes there was a bit of silliness with May voting against her own deal, but foreign politicians understand that political silliness happens sometimes.

    Life goes on. There will be deals on all sorts of things from flights to medicine.
    Why would any country invest the time and effort into negotiating an FTA with Britain when it can have no confidence that such an agreement would get past Parliament? It’s not simply a bit of silliness. It goes to the heart of whether Britain is seen as a sensible, pragmatic, reliable, honourable country to do business with.

    How could it trust Britain to honour its legal obligations when the no-dealers don’t want us to pay a penny of the money we legally owe the EU?

    What sort of a country talks like this, for God’s sake. It may be the Little Britain of Nigel Farage’s dreams. It is not the Britain I want to see or thought I lived in.

    The practical reality is that no country of any trading significance will contemplate a full-blown FTA with the UK until our relationship with the EU is finalised. On that hinges our attractiveness as a trading partner.

    Exactly so. And our relationship with the EU won’t be finalised if we go for No Deal because the EU has said plainly that before anything else they will expect agreement on money, citizens’ right and NI.

    But try getting these simple facts into the heads of No Deal Tories is a thankless and pointless task. They are determined to blow up our economy because they cannot abide the idea of compromising with a counter-party and don’t care if instability in Northern Ireland leads to more deaths. It is despicable.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gadfly said:

    Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.

    No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.

    If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.

    It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/22/tories-schools-austerity-cuts-politicians

    Well said.
    When did you last vote Tory Cyclefree?

    If you have never voted Tory I suggest your views on what is best for the Tories and how to avoid leakage to the Brexit Party carry little weight. Trump won, Bolsonaro won, Netanyahu won, Berluconi won and Salvini now leads in Italy, Modi leads in India, the liberal left may not like it but the populist right is winning elections across the world

    Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,407

    Mr. Recidivist, socialism was not a success when the USSR tried it, and it is not a success in Venezuela now.

    Get a bloody grip. What the feck has totalitarian communism in the USSR got to do with democratic socialism?

  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited April 2019
    Scott_P said:

    houndtang said:

    What amazes me is the lack of genuine panic in conservatism over the very real prospect of a Corbyn government. Never mind Brexit, Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it. The likes of IDS and Boris will not even hold their seats at the next election if the Tory shambles continues. Unless they get their shit together very quickly the Tories are handing the keys to Downing Street to cultural Marxists who will eradicate every remnant of the England that right wingers hold dear.

    There is an article in the Times this morning saying exactly that.

    The only way to stop Nigel Fucking Farage (it says) is for Tory voters to believe "Vote Farage, get Corbyn"

    I am not sure that will be effective myself.
    That perhaps would have been effective if May had not decided to blow up the Tory party and hand the keys of Brexit to Corbyn anyway.

    Also a tad hypocritical of The Times to fret about Corbyn now.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,407
    HYUFD said:

    houndtang said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm, well managed government. Personally Hunt looks more likely to deliver this. Boris certainly won't.
    The tories won't be do any governing whether calm, well managed or otherwise if they don't win the imminent GE. Corby will absolutely fucking mangle Rat Eyes in an election campaign.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm,ly won't.
    The tories won't be do any governing whetherction campaign.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    What amazes me is the lack of genuine panic in conservatism over the very real prospect of a Corbyn government. Never mind Brexit, Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets that right wingers hold dear.
    You make that sound like a bad thing. Eradicating the last vestiges of Empire and the notion of British superiority and everyone else being 'Jonny Foreigner', creating a fairer and more equal society, with public services that are there for the public good, protecting the natural environment and not jumping into every war going would be a darn sight better than the current shambles of a non-government we are being subjected to.
    It would also lead to many of the most talented and highest income earners moving to Singapore and Geneva etc
    No it won't. Who the hell would move from the Cotswolds to bloody Singapore?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    edited April 2019
    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...

    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gadfly said:

    Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.

    No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.

    If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.

    It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/22/tories-schools-austerity-cuts-politicians

    Well said.
    When did you last vote Tory Cyclefree?

    If you have never voted Tory I suggest your views on what is best for the Tories and how to avoid leakage to the Brexit Party carry little weight. Trump won, Bolsonaro won, Netanyahu won, Berluconi won and Salvini now leads in Italy, Modi leads in India, the liberal left may not like it but the populist right is winning elections across the world

    Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.

    You're overblowing it SO. The right is in the ascendancy and the liberal right is in abeyance.

    It wouldn't take that much for the positions to be once again reversed.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    So Corbyn's government won't be a disaster because Corbyn won't be running it?

    Not exactly a stunning defence, is it.

    Corbyn will be a disaster. Not a people dying in the streets Maduro style disaster, but a disaster nonetheless.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Mr. Recidivist, we have a minimum wage...

    Yes, that was my point. We have left wing policies without having to have a repressive regime to go with them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    Mr. Recidivist, socialism was not a success when the USSR tried it, and it is not a success in Venezuela now.

    Get a bloody grip. What the feck has totalitarian communism in the USSR got to do with democratic socialism?

    Look, if there's anything we know it's that hyperbolic Godwinovism, incessantly mentioning the USSR and bringing up the IRA are really effective Corbyn killers.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The Tories are deluded if they think replacing May suddenly solves their problems . For all Mays faults she has tried to deliver Brexit .

    Any future PM going all out for no deal will see enough resignations from the party to have no majority even with the DUP .

    The party membership and grassroots has now in effect become overtaken by the pure no deal Brexiters . The fact the alleged party of business could reach this point shows why the Tories deserve to be removed from office .

    They have brought nothing but chaos and division and are a danger to the UKs national interest .
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The idea that a No Deal departure, with all the disruption that will cause, not just in the short-term but to other countries’ willingness to enter into agreements with Britain on anything, should be the preferred option of a significant percentage of a party of government simply shows that the Tories are not fit to be in government.

    The Tories - and the country - need a leader who is prepared to speak some hard truths to them about what is needed for countries to earn their way in the world. Purity tests and a refusal to compromise with anyone outside these shores are the opposite of what is needed. Sadly for them (and us) there is no-one, other than Ken Clarke, with the courage to do this.

    Why do you think it would have any impact on other countries’ willingness to do a deal with the U.K.?

    We’ve abided by Article 50.

    The government couldn’t carry the legislature - that happens. Yes there was a bit of silliness with May voting against her own deal, but foreign politicians understand that political silliness happens sometimes.

    Life goes on. There will be deals on all sorts of things from flights to medicine.
    Why would anydo business with.

    How could it trust Britain to honour its legal obligations when the no-dealers don’t want us to pay a penny of the money we legally owe the EU?

    What sort of a country talks like this, for God’s sake. It may be the Little Britain of Nigel Farage’s dreams. It is not the Britain I want to see or thought I lived in.

    The practical reality is that no country of any trading significance will contemplate a full-blown FTA with the UK until our relationship with the EU is finalised. On that hinges our attractiveness as a trading partner.

    Exactly so. And our relationship with the EU won’t be finalised if we go for No Deal because the EU has said plainly that before anything else they will expect agreement on money, citizens’ right and NI.

    But try getting these simple facts into the heads of No Deal Tories is a thankless and pointless task. They are determined to blow up our economy because they cannot abide the idea of compromising with a counter-party and don’t care if instability in Northern Ireland leads to more deaths. It is despicable.

    The only deal No Deal Tories will accept is one which can be portrayed as a defeat for the EU. They see the whole process as a war with an enemy that has to be beaten. It’s insane.

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    nico67 said:

    The Tories are deluded if they think replacing May suddenly solves their problems . For all Mays faults she has tried to deliver Brexit .

    Any future PM going all out for no deal will see enough resignations from the party to have no majority even with the DUP .

    The party membership and grassroots has now in effect become overtaken by the pure no deal Brexiters . The fact the alleged party of business could reach this point shows why the Tories deserve to be removed from office .

    They have brought nothing but chaos and division and are a danger to the UKs national interest .

    I can't quote any evidence to back it up - but my gut tells me that Mrs May is holding the Tory vote up. Without her I think they'll be in real trouble.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...

    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    Corbyn’s brand of politics is quite as illiberal as Farage, if on a different point of the political spectrum.

    I’ve no idea whether it will be the end of days. But I disagree that he will be tempered by moderate Labour MPs. They have not tempered him so far and will not do so if they are in government.

    I agree though that the way the Tories are going about things is far more likely to bring an end to the union.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    HYUFD said:

    houndtang said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm,ly won't.
    The tories won't be do any governing whetherction campaign.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    What amazes me is the lack of genuine panic in conservatism over the very real prospect of a Corbyn government. Never mind Brexit, Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets that right wingers hold dear.
    You make that sound like a bad thing. Eradicating the last vestiges of Empire and the notion of British superiority and everyone else being 'Jonny Foreigner', creating a fairer and more equal society, with public services that are there for the public good, protecting the natural environment and not jumping into every war going would be a darn sight better than the current shambles of a non-government we are being subjected to.
    It would also lead to many of the most talented and highest income earners moving to Singapore and Geneva etc
    No it won't. Who the hell would move from the Cotswolds to bloody Singapore?
    Indeed, spot on.

    And as for businesses running a mile - most are tied to their locality.

    How are you going to run your local garage services, delivery firm, cleaning company, family solicitors, restaurant, chemist, farm, holiday let, fabrication shop, building company, etc. etc. from fucking Singapore?!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    And the other side would say that the Tories will slash public spending, allow bosses to exploit workers, side with the US in its imperialist ventures and, well on defence it looks like both sides plan to leave us defenceless.

    I'll ignore both shades of hyperbole.

    Corbyn's flavour of Labour isn't the one I favour, but it still seems preferable to what the Tories are actually doing at the moment.
    The Tories big fear must be Thornberry. It would be a landslide.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,548

    Mr. Recidivist, socialism was not a success when the USSR tried it, and it is not a success in Venezuela now.

    Get a bloody grip. What the feck has totalitarian communism in the USSR got to do with democratic socialism?
    Because the fear - whether justified or not - is that the 'democratic socialism' will only last until it starts to fail (as it will), and then it will go the route other countries have taken when they've tried - less democracy and socialism in name only.

    I will agree that a Corbyn/McDonnell majority government will not end up like Venezuela, as that situation is unique to the country. The disaster they lead us to will be very much a British disaster.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    So Corbyn's government won't be a disaster because Corbyn won't be running it?

    Not exactly a stunning defence, is it.

    Corbyn will be a disaster. Not a people dying in the streets Maduro style disaster, but a disaster nonetheless.
    It was the likes of this post, (not AFAIK from this poster) which contributed to Remain's 'Project Fear' and consequently to Leave's victory.
    AKA 'Oh come on you're wildly exaggerating!'
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,237

    Charles said:

    @JosiasJessop FPT

    If you’d read the thread I didn’t name my source originally

    I had a rather rude response from ManchesterKurt. So I sourced the comment. Not gratuitous.

    Andy was a client at the time (or at least Boots was) and I haven’t seen him since he quit to run GalaCoral in 2011.

    ...You should take a leaf from RCS's book; he does it [namedropping] sparingly and with style. ;). ...
    I was in a pub quiz with David Speigelhalter once.
    I once spoke to the head of the American Statistical Association and the head of Eurostat in a conference dinner.

    Pause.

    Look, it counts as namedropping in my world, OK?... :)

  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    Roger said:

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    And the other side would say that the Tories will slash public spending, allow bosses to exploit workers, side with the US in its imperialist ventures and, well on defence it looks like both sides plan to leave us defenceless.

    I'll ignore both shades of hyperbole.

    Corbyn's flavour of Labour isn't the one I favour, but it still seems preferable to what the Tories are actually doing at the moment.
    The Tories big fear must be Thornberry. It would be a landslide.
    Hahahahahahahahaha!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    Mr. Recidivist, socialism was not a success when the USSR tried it, and it is not a success in Venezuela now.

    Get a bloody grip. What the feck has totalitarian communism in the USSR got to do with democratic socialism?
    Because the fear - whether justified or not - is that the 'democratic socialism' will only last until it starts to fail (as it will), and then it will go the route other countries have taken when they've tried - less democracy and socialism in name only.

    I will agree that a Corbyn/McDonnell majority government will not end up like Venezuela, as that situation is unique to the country. The disaster they lead us to will be very much a British disaster.
    We already have the 'British disaster'... it's called Brexit.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The idea that a No Deal departure, with all the disruption that will cause, not just in the short-term but to other countries’ willingness to enter into agreements with Britain on anything, should be the preferred option of a significant percentage of a party of government simply shows that the Tories are not fit to be in government.

    The Tories - and the country - need a leader who is prepared to speak some hard truths to them about what is needed for countries to earn their way in the world. Purity tests and a refusal to compromise with anyone outside these shores are the opposite of what is needed. Sadly for them (and us) there is no-one, other than Ken Clarke, with the courage to do this.

    Why do you think it would have any impact on other countries’ willingness to do a deal with the U.K.?

    We’ve abided by Article 50.

    The government couldn’t carry the legislature - that happens. Yes there was a bit of silliness with May voting against her own deal, but foreign politicians understand that political silliness happens sometimes.

    Life goes on. There will be deals on all sorts of things from flights to medicine.
    Why would anydo business with.

    How could it trust Britain to honour its legal obligations when the no-dealers don’t want us to pay a penny of the money we legally owe the EU?

    What sort of a country talks like this, for God’s sake. It may be the Little Britain of Nigel Farage’s dreams. It is not the Britain I want to see or thought I lived in.

    The practical reality is that no country of any trading significance will contemplate a full-blown FTA with the UK until our relationship with the EU is finalised. On that hinges our attractiveness as a trading partner.

    Exactly so. And our relationship with the EU won’t be finalised if we go for No Deal because the EU has said plainly that before anything else they will expect agreement on money, citizens’ right and NI.

    But try getting these simple facts into the heads of No Deal Tories is a thankless and pointless task. They are determined to blow up our economy because they cannot abide the idea of compromising with a counter-party and don’t care if instability in Northern Ireland leads to more deaths. It is despicable.

    The only deal No Deal Tories will accept is one which can be portrayed as a defeat for the EU. They see the whole process as a war with an enemy that has to be beaten. It’s insane.

    You mean fatheads like Francois talking about domination by Germany and so on. I used to campaign for the Libs in Rayleigh; we had a couple of councillors there. Don't know what's gone wrong with the district.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gadfly said:

    Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.

    No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.

    If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.

    It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/22/tories-schools-austerity-cuts-politicians

    Well said.
    When did you last vote Tory Cyclefree?

    If you have never voted Tory I suggest your views on what is best for the Tories and how to avoid leakage to the Brexit Party carry little weight. Trump won, Bolsonaro won, Netanyahu won, Berluconi won and Salvini now leads in Italy, Modi leads in India, the liberal left may not like it but the populist right is winning elections across the world

    Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.

    exactly. the tories have become the worst of the 2 options.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Cyclefree said:

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...

    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    Corbyn’s brand of politics is quite as illiberal as Farage, if on a different point of the political spectrum.

    I’ve no idea whether it will be the end of days. But I disagree that he will be tempered by moderate Labour MPs. They have not tempered him so far and will not do so if they are in government.

    I agree though that the way the Tories are going about things is far more likely to bring an end to the union.

    Well I respect your views Cyclefree but consider this... Why would Labour moderates vote for an extreme measure that wasn't in the manifesto?

    If the past few years has taught us anything it should be that party discipline is a thing of the past.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,237
    edited April 2019
    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:

    Gove.

    He would make an effective chief of staff. Definitely a great CoTE .

    Has he got the sales pitch for middle ground non Con voters ? Not sure.

    Oddly, I would agree with that. He's a brilliant administrator, clearly has a wide range of knowledge and interests, and his energy is impressive. Which means when he is right, he is formidable.

    However, he has the judgement of a dead stoat, and is too insecure to change his mind unless he is compelled to. So when he gets things wrong, and nobody corrects him, the result is usually an unmitigated catastrophe.

    That alone should rule him out of the top job.
    Gove is also a bit malevolent. Boris, for all his manifest disadvantages ([redacted], [redacted], [redacted], [redacted]) isn't. But I think Boris is weak-willed and easily led astray, and if he falls into contact with bad men then he will do bad things.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    edited April 2019

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    So Corbyn's government won't be a disaster because Corbyn won't be running it?

    Not exactly a stunning defence, is it.

    Corbyn will be a disaster. Not a people dying in the streets Maduro style disaster, but a disaster nonetheless.
    It was the likes of this post, (not AFAIK from this poster) which contributed to Remain's 'Project Fear' and consequently to Leave's victory.
    AKA 'Oh come on you're wildly exaggerating!'
    Struggling to understand whether you're criticising my post or WhitRabbit's now?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964
    Roger said:

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    And the other side would say that the Tories will slash public spending, allow bosses to exploit workers, side with the US in its imperialist ventures and, well on defence it looks like both sides plan to leave us defenceless.

    I'll ignore both shades of hyperbole.

    Corbyn's flavour of Labour isn't the one I favour, but it still seems preferable to what the Tories are actually doing at the moment.
    The Tories big fear must be Thornberry. It would be a landslide.
    Because Thornberry will do so will in Stoke and Mansfield....
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Roger said:

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    And the other side would say that the Tories will slash public spending, allow bosses to exploit workers, side with the US in its imperialist ventures and, well on defence it looks like both sides plan to leave us defenceless.

    I'll ignore both shades of hyperbole.

    Corbyn's flavour of Labour isn't the one I favour, but it still seems preferable to what the Tories are actually doing at the moment.
    The Tories big fear must be Thornberry. It would be a landslide.
    :D

    Clearly missed your calling as a comedian, have you thought about running for French President?

  • houndtanghoundtang Posts: 450

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    If you are a conservative and traditionalist then the economic damage of Corbyn will be the thin end of the wedge - private schools will be forced long term into bankruptcy, immigration will be practically open door, the monarchy will not be abolished but will be downgraded and humiliated, statues of anyone with a vaguely imperial legacy will be removed, Parliament will be refurbished for the modern world and in the meantime will be a road show travelling between municipal leisure centres around the country, votes for 16 year olds, the military (last state bastion of right wingers) completely eviscerated....

    I make no comment on whether the above good or bad but the likes of IDS and Mogg, should be cacking themselves at the prospect
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Got to go now.

    Hope all you Tory PBers can think of something other than Big Bad Jezza this sunny bank holiday Monday; I fear for your blood pressure! :wink:
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Roger said:

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    And the other side would say that the Tories will slash public spending, allow bosses to exploit workers, side with the US in its imperialist ventures and, well on defence it looks like both sides plan to leave us defenceless.

    I'll ignore both shades of hyperbole.

    Corbyn's flavour of Labour isn't the one I favour, but it still seems preferable to what the Tories are actually doing at the moment.
    The Tories big fear must be Thornberry. It would be a landslide.
    She'd be the one that would remove any doubt from me about voting Labour.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    Incoming 'past glories' fest. I wonder if the choice of MV Boudicca was deliberate?

    https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1120238400114765824

    Oddly the silhouettes at the start appear to be US troops, though nothing wrong with honouring the bloody sacrifice of the dogfaces of course.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,548

    Mr. Recidivist, socialism was not a success when the USSR tried it, and it is not a success in Venezuela now.

    Get a bloody grip. What the feck has totalitarian communism in the USSR got to do with democratic socialism?
    Because the fear - whether justified or not - is that the 'democratic socialism' will only last until it starts to fail (as it will), and then it will go the route other countries have taken when they've tried - less democracy and socialism in name only.

    I will agree that a Corbyn/McDonnell majority government will not end up like Venezuela, as that situation is unique to the country. The disaster they lead us to will be very much a British disaster.
    We already have the 'British disaster'... it's called Brexit.
    Whilst I agree it has the potential to be a 'disaster', it is not yet, at least outside the political realm. We've got record levels of employment, low unemployment, and a rather good level of lifestyle for many (most?) along with a welfare net that, whilst straining as always, is present for those who fall on hard times.

    If you call the current state of Brexit a disaster, then we require another word for something that is far, far worse.
  • JenSJenS Posts: 91

    Off-topic:

    Here's an interesting article on why fewer trips are being made on London's transport system, despite an increasing population. Similar trends are being seen elsewhere in transport ...

    https://thedeveloper.live/places/places/why-are-fewer-people-riding-the-underground-the-reason-is-not-what-you-think-

    (Incidentally, if this is seen across the country it might validate an anti-HS2 argument that Richard Tyndall made in a discussion with me about eight or so years ago!)

    London bus routes have been systematically rerouted in recent years to make it impossible to go from east central (City) to west in one journey. The reason seems to be to shorten routes in order to facilitate frequency control. However the effect is to make bus commuting impossible for many including me.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Roger said:

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    And the other side would say that the Tories will slash public spending, allow bosses to exploit workers, side with the US in its imperialist ventures and, well on defence it looks like both sides plan to leave us defenceless.

    I'll ignore both shades of hyperbole.

    Corbyn's flavour of Labour isn't the one I favour, but it still seems preferable to what the Tories are actually doing at the moment.
    The Tories big fear must be Thornberry. It would be a landslide.
    Because Thornberry will do so will in Stoke and Mansfield....
    She's not been touring the Potteries photographing little white van man's flags of St George has she?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,407

    Mr. Recidivist, socialism was not a success when the USSR tried it, and it is not a success in Venezuela now.

    Get a bloody grip. What the feck has totalitarian communism in the USSR got to do with democratic socialism?
    Because the fear - whether justified or not - is that the 'democratic socialism' will only last until it starts to fail (as it will), and then it will go the route other countries have taken when they've tried - less democracy and socialism in name only.

    I will agree that a Corbyn/McDonnell majority government will not end up like Venezuela, as that situation is unique to the country. The disaster they lead us to will be very much a British disaster.
    We're having a general election not a revolution. If the voters don't like what a Corbyn premiership delivers they can kick the buggers out after 5 years and give someone else a go.

    Whatever our political stripe we are all democrats and every government has to answer to the electorate.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited April 2019

    Cyclefree said:

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...

    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    Corbyn’s brand of politics is quite as illiberal as Farage, if on a different point of the political spectrum.

    I’ve no idea whether it will be the end of days. But I disagree that he will be tempered by moderate Labour MPs. They have not tempered him so far and will not do so if they are in government.

    I agree though that the way the Tories are going about things is far more likely to bring an end to the union.

    Well I respect your views Cyclefree but consider this... Why would Labour moderates vote for an extreme measure that wasn't in the manifesto?

    If the past few years has taught us anything it should be that party discipline is a thing of the past.
    I hope you are right.

    But:-

    1. Party discipline seems much stronger within Labour.
    2. The fact of being in government will make it very much easier for MPs to override any objections they may have to one individual measure. They will persuade themselves - or be persuaded - that a measure may not be as extreme as all that.
    3. The fear of deselections.
    4. They won’t want to be blamed for undermining a Labour government.
    5. They have done the square root of fuck all to temper Corbyn on anti-semitism.

    So I do not place much faith in moderate Labour MPs, frankly.

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    viewcode said:

    Charles said:

    @JosiasJessop FPT

    If you’d read the thread I didn’t name my source originally

    I had a rather rude response from ManchesterKurt. So I sourced the comment. Not gratuitous.

    Andy was a client at the time (or at least Boots was) and I haven’t seen him since he quit to run GalaCoral in 2011.

    ...You should take a leaf from RCS's book; he does it [namedropping] sparingly and with style. ;). ...
    I was in a pub quiz with David Speigelhalter once.
    I once spoke to the head of the American Statistical Association and the head of Eurostat in a conference dinner.

    Pause.

    Look, it counts as namedropping in my world, OK?... :)

    Don't drop names. Richard Peto told me that.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964
    edited April 2019

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...

    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    What will temper Corbyn's ambitions won't be his MPs, all jockeying for ministerial posts and real power and deleting all their internet history where they said what a disaster Corbyn will be. No, it will be a lack of cash. And the inability to get his hands on cash at anything like reasonable rates. He will be hamstrung from day one, by the biggest flight of capital any G8 country will have ever seen - and it will have happened in the hours after the exit poll, before McDonnell ever steps inside Number 11.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...

    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    Corbyn’s brand of politics is quite as illiberal as Farage, if on a different point of the political spectrum.

    I’ve no idea whether it will be the end of days. But I disagree that he will be tempered by moderate Labour MPs. They have not tempered him so far and will not do so if they are in government.

    I agree though that the way the Tories are going about things is far more likely to bring an end to the union.

    Well I respect your views Cyclefree but consider this... Why would Labour moderates vote for an extreme measure that wasn't in the manifesto?

    If the past few years has taught us anything it should be that party discipline is a thing of the past.
    I hope you are right.

    But:-

    1. Party discipline seems much stronger within Labour.
    2. The fact of being in government will make it very much easier for MPs to override any objections they may have to one individual measure. They will persuade themselves - or be persuaded - that a measure may not be as extreme as all that.
    3. The fear of deselections.
    4. They won’t want to be blamed for undermining a Labour government.
    5. They have done the square root of fuck all to temper Corbyn on anti-semitism.

    So I do not place much faith in moderate Labour MPs, frankly.

    Initially at least with the euphoria of office I'm sure theyd get plenty done.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Roger said:

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    And the other side would say that the Tories will slash public spending, allow bosses to exploit workers, side with the US in its imperialist ventures and, well on defence it looks like both sides plan to leave us defenceless.

    I'll ignore both shades of hyperbole.

    Corbyn's flavour of Labour isn't the one I favour, but it still seems preferable to what the Tories are actually doing at the moment.
    The Tories big fear must be Thornberry. It would be a landslide.
    Because Thornberry will do so will in Stoke and Mansfield....
    Is there some issue about those locations that I don't know about?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964

    Roger said:

    Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).

    Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.

    And the other side would say that the Tories will slash public spending, allow bosses to exploit workers, side with the US in its imperialist ventures and, well on defence it looks like both sides plan to leave us defenceless.

    I'll ignore both shades of hyperbole.

    Corbyn's flavour of Labour isn't the one I favour, but it still seems preferable to what the Tories are actually doing at the moment.
    The Tories big fear must be Thornberry. It would be a landslide.
    Because Thornberry will do so will in Stoke and Mansfield....
    Is there some issue about those locations that I don't know about?
    They were Tory gains.....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,548

    Mr. Recidivist, socialism was not a success when the USSR tried it, and it is not a success in Venezuela now.

    Get a bloody grip. What the feck has totalitarian communism in the USSR got to do with democratic socialism?
    Because the fear - whether justified or not - is that the 'democratic socialism' will only last until it starts to fail (as it will), and then it will go the route other countries have taken when they've tried - less democracy and socialism in name only.

    I will agree that a Corbyn/McDonnell majority government will not end up like Venezuela, as that situation is unique to the country. The disaster they lead us to will be very much a British disaster.
    We're having a general election not a revolution. If the voters don't like what a Corbyn premiership delivers they can kick the buggers out after 5 years and give someone else a go.

    Whatever our political stripe we are all democrats and every government has to answer to the electorate.
    So said people in several countries where subsequent elections have turned out to be far from free and fair ...

    The electoral system can be subverted: and that is why it needs carefully guarding.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gadfly said:

    Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.

    No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.

    If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.

    It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/22/tories-schools-austerity-cuts-politicians

    Well said.
    When did you last vote Tory Cyclefree?

    If you have never voted Tory I suggest your views on what is best for the Tories and how to avoid leakage to the Brexit Party carry little weight. Trump won, Bolsonaro won, Netanyahu won, Berluconi won and Salvini now leads in Italy, Modi leads in India, the liberal left may not like it but the populist right is winning elections across the world

    Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.

    exactly. the tories have become the worst of the 2 options.
    Which under our dysfunctional voting system is the best we can ask for, sadly.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited April 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gadfly said:

    Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.

    No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.

    If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.
    Well said.
    When did you last vote Tory Cyclefree?


    Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.

    </blockquote

    Jimmy Anderson : Wreckers of law and order. Communists, Maoists, Trotskyists, neo-Trotskyists, crypto-Trotskyists, union leaders, Communist union leaders, atheists, agnostics, long-haired weirdos, short-haired weirdos, vandals, hooligans, football supporters, namby-pamby probation officers, rapists, papists, papist rapists, foreign surgeons - headshrinkers, who ought to be locked up, Wedgwood Benn, keg bitter, punk rock, glue-sniffers, "Play For Today", Clive Jenkins, Roy Jenkins, Up Jenkins, up everybody's, Chinese restaurants - why do you think Windsor Castle is ringed with Chinese restaurants?

    Reginald Perrin : You realise the sort of people you're going to attract, don't you, Jimmy? Thugs, bully-boys, psychopaths, sacked policemen, security guards, sacked security guards, racialists, Paki-bashers, queer-bashers, Chink-bashers, anybody-bashers, rear Admirals, queer admirals, Vice Admirals, fascists, neo-fascists, crypto-fascists, loyalists, neo-loyalists, crypto-loyalists.

    Jimmy Anderson : Do you think so? I thought recruitment might be difficult.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    So Corbyn's government won't be a disaster because Corbyn won't be running it?

    Not exactly a stunning defence, is it.

    Corbyn will be a disaster. Not a people dying in the streets Maduro style disaster, but a disaster nonetheless.
    It was the likes of this post, (not AFAIK from this poster) which contributed to Remain's 'Project Fear' and consequently to Leave's victory.
    AKA 'Oh come on you're wildly exaggerating!'
    Struggling to understand whether you're criticising my post or WhitRabbit's now?
    Do I have to criticise either? I suppose it's both to some extent, but Mr R's a bit more. 65 or so years of interest in politics and I've never seen as much venom directed at a Labour leader. Nye Bevan used to get a lot of stick, but he was never party leader. Michael Foot, too, but, as an ex-journalist he used to get some slack.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    HYUFD said:

    houndtang said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm,ly won't.
    The tories won't be do any governing whetherction campaign.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    What amazes me is the lack of genuine panic in conservatism over the very real prospect of a Corbyn government. Never mind Brexit, Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets that right wingers hold dear.
    You make that sound like a bad thing. Eradicating the last vestiges of Empire and ed to.
    It would also lead to many of the most talented and highest income earners moving to Singapore and Geneva etc
    No it won't. Who the hell would move from the Cotswolds to bloody Singapore?
    Indeed, spot on.

    And as for businesses running a mile - most are tied to their locality.

    How are you going to run your local garage services, delivery firm, cleaning company, family solicitors, restaurant, chemist, farm, holiday let, fabrication shop, building company, etc. etc. from fucking Singapore?!
    It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gadfly said:

    Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.

    No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.

    If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.

    It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/22/tories-schools-austerity-cuts-politicians

    Well said.
    When did you last vote Tory Cyclefree?

    If you have never voted Tory I suggest your views on what is best for the Tories and how to avoid leakage to the Brexit Party carry little weight. Trump won, Bolsonaro won, Netanyahu won, Berluconi won and Salvini now leads in Italy, Modi leads in India, the liberal left may not like it but the populist right is winning elections across the world

    Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.

    From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    Cyclefree said:

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...

    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    Corbyn’s brand of politics is quite as illiberal as Farage, if on a different point of the political spectrum.

    I’ve no idea whether it will be the end of days. But I disagree that he will be tempered by moderate Labour MPs. They have not tempered him so far and will not do so if they are in government.

    I agree though that the way the Tories are going about things is far more likely to bring an end to the union.

    Promising that the referendum result would be implemented and that it was the public’s decision, not politicians, then allowing politicians to prevent its implementation is the end of days
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,237

    Incoming 'past glories' fest. I wonder if the choice of MV Boudicca was deliberate?

    https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1120238400114765824

    Oddly the silhouettes at the start appear to be US troops, though nothing wrong with honouring the bloody sacrifice of the dogfaces of course.

    Ooh, good catch. I think the gun the front soldier is carrying is the Thompson submachinegun with the box magazine, but both sides used that. The gun in the background looks more like a Garand than a Lee-Enfield. The helmets look more like the M1 than the British ones.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_helmet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_III_helmet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee–Enfield
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_submachine_gun
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    edited April 2019
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    houndtang said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm,ly won't.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    What amazes me is the lack of genuine panic in conservatism over the very real prospect of a Corbyn government. Never mind Brexit, Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets that right wingers hold dear.
    You make that sound like a bad thing. Eradicating the last vestiges of Empire and ed to.
    It would also lead to many of the most talented and highest income earners moving to Singapore and Geneva etc
    No it won't. Who the hell would move from the Cotswolds to bloody Singapore?
    Indeed, spot on.

    And as for businesses running a mile - most are tied to their locality.

    How are you going to run your local garage services, delivery firm, cleaning company, family solicitors, restaurant, chemist, farm, holiday let, fabrication shop, building company, etc. etc. from fucking Singapore?!
    It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
    Well, the ones I know about are the 'chemists' and both Boots and Lloyds are American owned. Incidentally, Boots staff used to be proud of their staff association, but they've just voted to switch to an independent trade union.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,237

    viewcode said:

    Charles said:

    @JosiasJessop FPT

    If you’d read the thread I didn’t name my source originally

    I had a rather rude response from ManchesterKurt. So I sourced the comment. Not gratuitous.

    Andy was a client at the time (or at least Boots was) and I haven’t seen him since he quit to run GalaCoral in 2011.

    ...You should take a leaf from RCS's book; he does it [namedropping] sparingly and with style. ;). ...
    I was in a pub quiz with David Speigelhalter once.
    I once spoke to the head of the American Statistical Association and the head of Eurostat in a conference dinner.

    Pause.

    Look, it counts as namedropping in my world, OK?... :)

    Don't drop names. Richard Peto told me that.
    Never quote your relatives. My father told me that.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964

    viewcode said:

    Charles said:

    @JosiasJessop FPT

    If you’d read the thread I didn’t name my source originally

    I had a rather rude response from ManchesterKurt. So I sourced the comment. Not gratuitous.

    Andy was a client at the time (or at least Boots was) and I haven’t seen him since he quit to run GalaCoral in 2011.

    ...You should take a leaf from RCS's book; he does it [namedropping] sparingly and with style. ;). ...
    I was in a pub quiz with David Speigelhalter once.
    I once spoke to the head of the American Statistical Association and the head of Eurostat in a conference dinner.

    Pause.

    Look, it counts as namedropping in my world, OK?... :)

    Don't drop names. Richard Peto told me that.
    Lauren Becall was married to Humphrey Bogart, was a lover of Frank Sinatra and a friend to Ernest Hemingway. When she talked, you just listened....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    HYUFD said:

    houndtang said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm, well managed government. Personally Hunt looks more likely to deliver this. Boris certainly won't.
    The tories won't be do any governing whether calm, well managed or otherwise if they don't win the imminent GE. Corby will absolutely fucking mangle Rat Eyes in an election campaign.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally right now I’m for Hunt or Javid. Reasonably bright, reasonably competent, pragmatic. Gove as Chancellor, not as leader. Boris should be aiming to get back on HIGNFY. That is what he did best.

    We urgently need a period of calm,ly won't.
    The tories won't be do any governing whetherction campaign.
    Indeed, Hunt will lead us calmly and in a well managed way to a Corbyn premiership
    So? If it us 2022 that would be 12 years of Tory led government that's a good run.
    Except after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela
    What amazes me is the lack of genuine panic in conservatism over the very real prospect of a Corbyn government. Never mind Brexit, Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets that right wingers hold dear.
    You make that sound like a bad thing. Eradicating the last ted to.
    It would also lead to many of the most talented and highest income earners moving to Singapore and Geneva etc
    No it won't. Who the hell would move from the Cotswolds to bloody Singapore?
    Anyone who does not want to lose most of their income and assets in tax
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,237
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gadfly said:

    Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.

    No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.

    If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.

    It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/22/tories-schools-austerity-cuts-politicians

    Well said.
    When did you last vote Tory Cyclefree?

    If you have never voted Tory I suggest your views on what is best for the Tories and how to avoid leakage to the Brexit Party carry little weight. Trump won, Bolsonaro won, Netanyahu won, Berluconi won and Salvini now leads in Italy, Modi leads in India, the liberal left may not like it but the populist right is winning elections across the world

    Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.

    From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party...
    Indeed.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gadfly said:

    Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.

    No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.

    If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.

    It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/22/tories-schools-austerity-cuts-politicians

    Well said.
    When did you last vote Tory Cyclefree?

    If you have never voted Tory I suggest your views on what is best for the Tories and how to avoid leakage to the Brexit Party carry little weight. Trump won, Bolsonaro won, Netanyahu won, Berluconi won and Salvini now leads in Italy, Modi leads in India, the liberal left may not like it but the populist right is winning elections across the world

    Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.

    From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
    Telling this is your go to move. You seem utterly unconcerned that anyone other than the pure might ever vote Tory.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    HYUFD said:


    And as for businesses running a mile - most are tied to their locality.

    How are you going to run your local garage services, delivery firm, cleaning company, family solicitors, restaurant, chemist, farm, holiday let, fabrication shop, building company, etc. etc. from fucking Singapore?!

    It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
    This will be the script for the election. The people who were going to flee from a Tory Brexit will be painted as fleeing from Jeremy Corbyn.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...

    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    The one benefit of a Corbyn government you do point out is it would be reliant on the SNP to stay in power, so the nationalists could not keep crying out how Westminster ignores Scotland any longer
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited April 2019
    Well if you had landed from Mars and looked at this discussion you would wonder what the hell is going on. Whilst everybody is arguing if Labour is worse than no deal you are letting Farage possibly steal power on a ridiculously, but evenly spread, low vote. For some reason he is seen as a breath of fresh air by people not that engaged with politics. Now if we want to see disaster let it happen.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964
    HYUFD said:


    It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad

    Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.

    The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
  • HYUFD said:

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...

    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    The one benefit of a Corbyn government you do point out is it would be reliant on the SNP to stay in power, so the nationalists could not keep crying out how Westminster ignores Scotland any longer
    And the price for their support would be - IndyRef2 with the UK government not campaigning for No
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    viewcode said:

    Incoming 'past glories' fest. I wonder if the choice of MV Boudicca was deliberate?

    https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1120238400114765824

    Oddly the silhouettes at the start appear to be US troops, though nothing wrong with honouring the bloody sacrifice of the dogfaces of course.

    Ooh, good catch. I think the gun the front soldier is carrying is the Thompson submachinegun with the box magazine, but both sides used that. The gun in the background looks more like a Garand than a Lee-Enfield. The helmets look more like the M1 than the British ones.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_helmet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_III_helmet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee–Enfield
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_submachine_gun
    Dominic Raab just texted me to ask why they are sailing from Portsmouth when he has just learned for a fact that the only way to France is through Dover. More seriously, why does the British Legion have to pay for the ship? As with the wrong silhouettes, the whole thing smacks of cheap gimmickry.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,865
    I question the consensus that if Boris Johnson makes the final two he will win. I doubt he would.

    Think about it. If the contest is this summer, which is likely, the membership will be conscious that they are choosing not just their next party leader but an individual to assume the mantle of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. That is a massive responsibility for those doing the choosing and they are going to feel it. It will weigh heavily.

    These are not ordinary feckless members of the public, remember, they are fully paid up members of the Conservative Party. They have a higher than average sense of propriety and civic duty. That is one of the reasons they joined in the first place. They are also a lot older than most people, meaning that although teeth may be in short supply, wisdom is not.

    So bearing all of this in mind, how likely is it, despite what we are told by ‘polls’, that when push comes to shove this august body of electors will foist a man as unfit for office as Boris Johnson on a horrified nation?

    Not very. He’s a lay.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    viewcode said:

    Incoming 'past glories' fest. I wonder if the choice of MV Boudicca was deliberate?

    https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1120238400114765824

    Oddly the silhouettes at the start appear to be US troops, though nothing wrong with honouring the bloody sacrifice of the dogfaces of course.

    Ooh, good catch. I think the gun the front soldier is carrying is the Thompson submachinegun with the box magazine, but both sides used that. The gun in the background looks more like a Garand than a Lee-Enfield. The helmets look more like the M1 than the British ones.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_helmet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_III_helmet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee–Enfield
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_submachine_gun
    We cannot discount the possibility of a young designer whose entire knowledge of Overlord is based on Saving Private Ryan and CoD.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    edited April 2019

    HYUFD said:


    It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad

    Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.

    The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
    Exactly, the super rich can move abroad to escape Corbyn, it will be the middle class who will face the brunt of the Corbyn tax hikes, as Francois Hollande discovered in France trying to implement socialism in practice does not a happy electorate make while half the highest earners in Paris ended up in London when Hollande and the Socialists were in charge.
    (Given the more free market Macron and En Marche has now replaced Hollande and the Socialists in France we could even see the reverse and rich Londoners moving to Paris if Corbyn and Labour get in)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...

    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    What will temper Corbyn's ambitions won't be his MPs, all jockeying for ministerial posts and real power and deleting all their internet history where they said what a disaster Corbyn will be. No, it will be a lack of cash. And the inability to get his hands on cash at anything like reasonable rates. He will be hamstrung from day one, by the biggest flight of capital any G8 country will have ever seen - and it will have happened in the hours after the exit poll, before McDonnell ever steps inside Number 11.

    How will that be worse than a country tearing up all its trade agreements, as the No Dealers seem to want?

    I am hardly Corbyn’s greatest fan but the way the Tories are behaving is making even me wonder whether he could possibly be any worse.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    Cyclefree said:

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...

    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    What will temper Corbyn's ambitions won't be his MPs, all jockeying for ministerial posts and real power and deleting all their internet history where they said what a disaster Corbyn will be. No, it will be a lack of cash. And the inability to get his hands on cash at anything like reasonable rates. He will be hamstrung from day one, by the biggest flight of capital any G8 country will have ever seen - and it will have happened in the hours after the exit poll, before McDonnell ever steps inside Number 11.

    How will that be worse than a country tearing up all its trade agreements, as the No Dealers seem to want?

    I am hardly Corbyn’s greatest fan but the way the Tories are behaving is making even me wonder whether he could possibly be any worse.
    The public may decide to finally turn their backs on both of them
  • initforthemoneyinitforthemoney Posts: 736
    edited April 2019
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:


    On what prospectus is any leader going to unite the Parliamentary party?

    Renegotiate? Seems to work until you actually have to try and do it. So promise to renegotiate, then call a GE to get a mandate for your renegotiation. If you win you get another 5 years, and hopefully a majority and some political capital that you can spend passing TMay's deal.
    The killer for the Conservatives is that the candidates are all going to have to set out their views on no deal. They can please the membership or they can command the confidence of the House of Commons. They can’t do both.
    This. It's why the focus on May, while warranted due to being crap, feels like a distraction. Tory Members want no deal Brexit, but even if the bulk of their mps agree with that they cannot do anything. Parliament will take control again or god forbid more defect. The only path to no deal is continued paralysis and this time if parliament forces an extension request the EU say no.

    Is that really the plan? Or more unicorn selling?
    Surely it's straightforward for the government to force a no deal even if parliament demands the PM requests an extension. The PM could just tell the EU Council we're going to be as awkward as possible because I don't want this extension I'm being mandated to request and there is no hope of any resolution from our side because parliament and the government are at loggerheads.
    No, the EU council rejected May's initial extension request as it was too short based on the time Parliament needed and the EU instead gave the UK a longer extension than the PM wanted
    May palpably did not follow the strategy I outlined because she doesn't want no deal!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    kinabalu said:

    I question the consensus that if Boris Johnson makes the final two he will win. I doubt he would.

    Think about it. If the contest is this summer, which is likely, the membership will be conscious that they are choosing not just their next party leader but an individual to assume the mantle of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. That is a massive responsibility for those doing the choosing and they are going to feel it. It will weigh heavily.

    These are not ordinary feckless members of the public, remember, they are fully paid up members of the Conservative Party. They have a higher than average sense of propriety and civic duty. That is one of the reasons they joined in the first place. They are also a lot older than most people, meaning that although teeth may be in short supply, wisdom is not.

    So bearing all of this in mind, how likely is it, despite what we are told by ‘polls’, that when push comes to shove this august body of electors will foist a man as unfit for office as Boris Johnson on a horrified nation?

    Not very. He’s a lay.

    Most Tory members want Brexit above all and they will not trust a Remainer again like May to deliver it, only a Leaver like Boris
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Age doesn’t confer wisdom from what I have seen!
    kinabalu said:

    I question the consensus that if Boris Johnson makes the final two he will win. I doubt he would.

    Think about it. If the contest is this summer, which is likely, the membership will be conscious that they are choosing not just their next party leader but an individual to assume the mantle of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. That is a massive responsibility for those doing the choosing and they are going to feel it. It will weigh heavily.

    These are not ordinary feckless members of the public, remember, they are fully paid up members of the Conservative Party. They have a higher than average sense of propriety and civic duty. That is one of the reasons they joined in the first place. They are also a lot older than most people, meaning that although teeth may be in short supply, wisdom is not.

    So bearing all of this in mind, how likely is it, despite what we are told by ‘polls’, that when push comes to shove this august body of electors will foist a man as unfit for office as Boris Johnson on a horrified nation?

    Not very. He’s a lay.

    kinabalu said:

    I question the consensus that if Boris Johnson makes the final two he will win. I doubt he would.

    Think about it. If the contest is this summer, which is likely, the membership will be conscious that they are choosing not just their next party leader but an individual to assume the mantle of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. That is a massive responsibility for those doing the choosing and they are going to feel it. It will weigh heavily.

    These are not ordinary feckless members of the public, remember, they are fully paid up members of the Conservative Party. They have a higher than average sense of propriety and civic duty. That is one of the reasons they joined in the first place. They are also a lot older than most people, meaning that although teeth may be in short supply, wisdom is not.

    So bearing all of this in mind, how likely is it, despite what we are told by ‘polls’, that when push comes to shove this august body of electors will foist a man as unfit for office as Boris Johnson on a horrified nation?

    Not very. He’s a lay.

  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    Cyclefree said:



    I hope you are right.

    But:-

    1. Party discipline seems much stronger within Labour.
    2. The fact of being in government will make it very much easier for MPs to override any objections they may have to one individual measure. They will persuade themselves - or be persuaded - that a measure may not be as extreme as all that.
    3. The fear of deselections.
    4. They won’t want to be blamed for undermining a Labour government.
    5. They have done the square root of fuck all to temper Corbyn on anti-semitism.

    So I do not place much faith in moderate Labour MPs, frankly.

    If Corbyn becomes PM, and it's still very much an if, not a when, it is almost certain that he will head a minority government. I have not seen any polling that suggests he is on course for a majority and the evidence from byelections doesn't point that way either. So he will be dependent on the goodwill of the SNP, LDs, and Labour moderates, some of who, will no doubt sacrifice their careers to prevent what they believe to be damaging extremism (just as some Tory moderates are doing at the moment). The view that a Corbyn premiership will instantly turn the UK into a latter day Venezuela is absurd, it's much more likely that Labour will follow the same kind of path that Syriza has taken in Greece and quietly drop its more extreme positions.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited April 2019
    Were Boris to become Tory leader, perhaps 10 Tory MPs would resign the Tory whip and join Nick Boles on the Opposition benches. The effect would be to reduce Tory representation to circa 305 MPs - well below the level needed to sustain a majority even with continued DUP support. Under such circumstances , would he even be appointed PM if it was clear he did not command a majority in the House of Commons?
    Edit - Just noticed that Alastair Meeks beat me to it a few hours ago!
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    If no deal means air travel is more difficult, and air travel is killing the planet, why do we think of it as so bad?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    HYUFD said:

    Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...

    "after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.

    Just stop and think for a moment:

    Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.

    The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)

    And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.

    Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!

    The one benefit of a Corbyn government you do point out is it would be reliant on the SNP to stay in power, so the nationalists could not keep crying out how Westminster ignores Scotland any longer
    And the price for their support would be - IndyRef2 with the UK government not campaigning for No
    And given we would be in BINO at worst, even no Brexit at all under a Corbyn SNP Government and Scotland's largest party would be part of the UK government anyway, No to Independence would win comfortably with Ruth Davidson leading the No side ironically able to even push an anti government line and that would kill off independence for a generation
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