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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Going back to your constituencies. Alastair Meeks on not takin

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  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 7,162
    viewcode said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    To paraphrase, Johnson is the worst possible party leader and PM.

    Apart from all the others.

    I suppose either Churchill or Oscar Wilde said the original of that.

    Amazing the stuff those two came out with. They never met, as far as I know, but imagine if they had - talk about having a conversation!
    Your post made me wonder if they did, and a quick Google produced the following link:
    https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/156185
    Arthur Conan Doyle once speculated that he might have met HG Wells before either were famous (apparently both were in Southsea at the same time).

    James May and Andy Serkis were both living on Lancaster Campus at the same time

    Rhianna and Sheldon Cooper are best friends in real life

    Peter Falk and Patrick McGoohan were best friends too.

    Life is weird
    Al Gore and Tommy Lee Jones shared a room at College.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,348
    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cicero said:

    There is a consistent picture in the Tory wannabes, only Rory Stewart is a Conservative and the only one who speaks human.

    The others are variations on a theme of breakdown. With Boris it seems only a matter of time before the party hits the rocks, Raab is a Poundland Francis Urquhart, Gove, Murdoch's London representative, Leadsom tied up in hedge fund greed, Hunt, Harper and Hancock as dull as blotting paper, Javid and McVey vacuous biographies in search of a job,

    Only Stewart can possibly work, but the Tories seem determined to avoid the only solution to their haemorrhaging donors and geriatric membership.

    Good summary.

    I like Rory. I think he’d do well for the SCons, or at least relatively well.

    Fortunately, he hasn’t got a hope in hell.

    The others are pure SNP gold. Although I’m hoping for Boris or Gove, I’ve got to admit that the Poundland Francis Urquhart is growing on me.
    Agree with all that about how fine and decent Rory Stewart is. The problem facing electors, both MPs and members, is there is a long track record of decent people being unable to win elections or stand the pace. Kinnock, Ed Miliband, Hague, Home, Callaghan and now Mrs May were or are decent centrists doing their best, and in different ways they are all admirable. And that's without starting on Howard or Duncan Smith. If you close your eyes and think about the current state of the UK voters, could Rory win an election. No. This is very much to his credit but in trying to predict the future the morality of decent people does not get a look in. He won't be leader.
    John Major (Edwin excepted) was probably the last nice, decent person to win a majority at a general election in 1992 and then he was trounced by the more charismatic Blair in 1997
    I quite liked Major, but many people might not equate his having an affair with 'decent'.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,050
    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Fenman said:

    nico67 said:

    Last Peterborough election Labour took 48% , the Tories 46%.

    How many of those voters will move to the BP.

    Labour are likely to lose more to the Lib Dems and Greens than to the BP. The Tories say lose half to the BP.

    With the current climate the BP are favourites but I don’t think it’s a shoe in. It could be that Labour hold just enough votes to scrape over the line . They could end up winning with just 30% of the vote .

    Peterborough is a very ethnic city. If community leaders tell their communities to vote and vote Labour, they could still win.
    I think about 20% of voters are from ethnic minorities. That's important, but not decisive.
    Are you talking about the council area? The Peterborough constituency covers the central wards so has a much higher percentage than the city authority at large. And of course big changes since the last census.
    Labour is a live dog.
    It would be bizarre for Remainers to let TBP in by switching from Lab to LD on the basis of Brexit. Doesn't mean it won't happen, I suppose.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Fenman said:

    nico67 said:

    Last Peterborough election Labour took 48% , the Tories 46%.

    How many of those voters will move to the BP.

    Labour are likely to lose more to the Lib Dems and Greens than to the BP. The Tories say lose half to the BP.

    With the current climate the BP are favourites but I don’t think it’s a shoe in. It could be that Labour hold just enough votes to scrape over the line . They could end up winning with just 30% of the vote .

    Peterborough is a very ethnic city. If community leaders tell their communities to vote and vote Labour, they could still win.
    I think about 20% of voters are from ethnic minorities. That's important, but not decisive.
    Are you talking about the council area? The Peterborough constituency covers the central wards so has a much higher percentage than the city authority at large. And of course big changes since the last census.
    Labour is a live dog.
    It would be bizarre for Remainers to let TBP in by switching from Lab to LD on the basis of Brexit. Doesn't mean it won't happen, I suppose.
    I think there are a lot of reasons now to not vote Labour.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,023


    - We don't owe them nothing!
    - That Esther McVey says we can pay half the money for a no deal transition.
    - She's a Remoaner! Look at this beermat!

    image

    Feeding Hard Brexit propaganda to ordinary decent drunks when they are in their cups - that is really not on.

    Ought to be a law against it, in fact.

    Do I get inundated with Europhilia when I go for a mid-afternoon freshener at the Lofty Remainer Inn in Hampstead? Absolutely not. We are above that.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,087
    The WX in Pompey looks fucking gash. Trump will be dreaming of Mar-a-Lago.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,050
    TGOHF said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Fenman said:

    nico67 said:

    Last Peterborough election Labour took 48% , the Tories 46%.

    How many of those voters will move to the BP.

    Labour are likely to lose more to the Lib Dems and Greens than to the BP. The Tories say lose half to the BP.

    With the current climate the BP are favourites but I don’t think it’s a shoe in. It could be that Labour hold just enough votes to scrape over the line . They could end up winning with just 30% of the vote .

    Peterborough is a very ethnic city. If community leaders tell their communities to vote and vote Labour, they could still win.
    I think about 20% of voters are from ethnic minorities. That's important, but not decisive.
    Are you talking about the council area? The Peterborough constituency covers the central wards so has a much higher percentage than the city authority at large. And of course big changes since the last census.
    Labour is a live dog.
    It would be bizarre for Remainers to let TBP in by switching from Lab to LD on the basis of Brexit. Doesn't mean it won't happen, I suppose.
    I think there are a lot of reasons now to not vote Labour.

    Sure, that's why I said "on the basis of Brexit"
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 7,655

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Where's @DavidL?

    "As usual many were mainly there to attack Israel"

    "Mr Corbyn described the gathering as "the whole wonderful mosaic of diversity and inclusion (except Jews, obviously)"

    The Times today.

    WTAF? He seriously said that?
    No-one else has picked it up so I'd guess it was a joke by a Times writer.
    No, it was a lie by TOPPING. The times article had the parenthetical outside the quotation marks. Still incredibly antisemitic of course, implying that anyone who protests Israel isn't a real Jew, but I've come to expect that from the right-wing press.

    Also if you for one second thought that Corbyn might have actually said that, you've completely lost touch with reality.
    If you look down the thread you'll see a Labour supporter accepting it at face value and approving it as evidence that "change is coming." I am sure he knows his own party better than you or I.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 73,324
    Pulpstar said:

    The first professional though biased assessment of the Peterborough situation that I've seen (there's a Waughzone report too but that's very anecdotal - basically "I've seen a lot of Brexit supporters"). This one also sounds like 1. Brexit 2. Labour, though.

    https://labourlist.org/2019/06/an-afternoon-in-peterborough-brexit-party-vs-labour/

    2nd whilst not great is important to Labour in Peterborough, a drop to 3rd below the Lib Dems/Tories or some such would be very bad news indeed.
    If Labour fall to third, especially behind the LDs, that will see a Starmer leadership challenge within weeks.

    If Labour come second and the Brexit Party win Corbyn will climg on but with Labour MPs from Leave seats and Labour Remainers at each others throats
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 73,324
    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    As far as the Tory Party goes I don't think the deal matters. That is not in the leader's hands. What matters is having the ability to win the next election. With someone civilised and if Corbyn stays in place I'd say they're in with a chance. With Boris or any of the rest of them them I'd say they're doomed

    Johnson or Corbyn, that will be a tough choice for many millions. I wonder which way they will break?

    It's an important question because the answer will determine which of two starkly different futures lie ahead.

    Large state tax & spend, inside the European Union, or
    Small deregulated state, market primacy, outside the European Union.

    I can't call it.
    Raab and Javid are both more small state than Boris
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 73,324

    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    Freedom of the press under attack in Australia after police raids :

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-48522729

    Alleged leaks of military classified information regarding Afghanistan on the other hand
    I wasn’t aware freedom of the press extended to allowing them to break the law...
    Exactly
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037
    What price the Peterborough winner to be under 30%?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    edited June 2019

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cicero said:

    There is a consistent picture in the Tory wannabes, only Rory Stewart is a Conservative and the only one who speaks human.

    The others are variations on a theme of breakdown. With Boris it seems only a matter of time before the party hits the rocks, Raab is a Poundland Francis Urquhart, Gove, Murdoch's London representative, Leadsom tied up in hedge fund greed, Hunt, Harper and Hancock as dull as blotting paper, Javid and McVey vacuous biographies in search of a job,

    Only Stewart can possibly work, but the Tories seem determined to avoid the only solution to their haemorrhaging donors and geriatric membership.

    Good summary.

    I like Rory. I think he’d do well for the SCons, or at least relatively well.

    Fortunately, he hasn’t got a hope in hell.

    The others are pure SNP gold. Although I’m hoping for Boris or Gove, I’ve got to admit that the Poundland Francis Urquhart is growing on me.
    Agree with all that about how fine and decent Rory Stewart is. The problem facing electors, both MPs and members, is there is a long track record of decent people being unable to win elections or stand the pace. Kinnock, Ed Miliband, Hague, Home, Callaghan and now Mrs May were or are decent centrists doing their best, and in different ways they are all admirable. And that's without starting on Howard or Duncan Smith. If you close your eyes and think about the current state of the UK voters, could Rory win an election. No. This is very much to his credit but in trying to predict the future the morality of decent people does not get a look in. He won't be leader.
    John Major (Edwin excepted) was probably the last nice, decent person to win a majority at a general election in 1992 and then he was trounced by the more charismatic Blair in 1997
    I quite liked Major, but many people might not equate his having an affair with 'decent'.
    I had some direct exposure to Major's Treasury and it seemed to me at the time that the Treasury ran him rather than he running the Treasury. From a more distant standpoint, I feel that he was equally manipulable as PM. A weak man, I think, and more important than decency as a trait in a politician?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,033
    The Tories would much rather Corbyn won Peterborough than Nige I expect. On that basis they should be trying very hard indeed.
  • isamisam Posts: 32,842
    Decent effort, with a betting tip on the Trade Union Elections at the end

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,023
    HYUFD said:

    Raab and Javid are both more small state than Boris

    Well it's hard to know what BJ stands for. But, yes, those 2 are openly small state. A few of the other contenders are too.

    However my point is that if BJ makes it (which he will - well done for calling that before I did) and he gets Hard Brexit through, the Tory policy for 'maximizing the advantages of Global Britain" will be small state, dereg, spending cuts.
  • isamisam Posts: 32,842
    Did John Whitby defect from The Pirate Party?

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,348

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cicero said:

    There is a consistent picture in the Tory wannabes, only Rory Stewart is a Conservative and the only one who speaks human.

    The others are variations on a theme of breakdown. With Boris it seems only a matter of time before the party hits the rocks, Raab is a Poundland Francis Urquhart, Gove, Murdoch's London representative, Leadsom tied up in hedge fund greed, Hunt, Harper and Hancock as dull as blotting paper, Javid and McVey vacuous biographies in search of a job,

    Only Stewart can possibly work, but the Tories seem determined to avoid the only solution to their haemorrhaging donors and geriatric membership.

    Good summary.

    I like Rory. I think he’d do well for the SCons, or at least relatively well.

    Fortunately, he hasn’t got a hope in hell.

    The others are pure SNP gold. Although I’m hoping for Boris or Gove, I’ve got to admit that the Poundland Francis Urquhart is growing on me.
    Agree with all that about how fine and decent Rory Stewart is. The problem facing electors, both MPs and members, is there is a long track record of decent people being unable to win elections or stand the pace. Kinnock, Ed Miliband, Hague, Home, Callaghan and now Mrs May were or are decent centrists doing their best, and in different ways they are all admirable. And that's without starting on Howard or Duncan Smith. If you close your eyes and think about the current state of the UK voters, could Rory win an election. No. This is very much to his credit but in trying to predict the future the morality of decent people does not get a look in. He won't be leader.
    John Major (Edwin excepted) was probably the last nice, decent person to win a majority at a general election in 1992 and then he was trounced by the more charismatic Blair in 1997
    I quite liked Major, but many people might not equate his having an affair with 'decent'.
    I had some direct exposure to Major's Treasury and it seemed to me at the time that the Treasury ran him rather than he running the Treasury. From a more distant standpoint, I feel that he was equally manipulable as PM. A weak man, I think, and more important than decency as a trait in a politician?
    I don't see Major as weak.He took on the bastards and, unlike May, won against them.

    The loss in 1997 can be put down to many things, not many of them to do with Major himself.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 5,747
    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    As far as the Tory Party goes I don't think the deal matters. That is not in the leader's hands. What matters is having the ability to win the next election. With someone civilised and if Corbyn stays in place I'd say they're in with a chance. With Boris or any of the rest of them them I'd say they're doomed

    Johnson or Corbyn, that will be a tough choice for many millions. I wonder which way they will break?

    It's an important question because the answer will determine which of two starkly different futures lie ahead.

    Large state tax & spend, inside the European Union, or
    Small deregulated state, market primacy, outside the European Union.

    I can't call it.

    Two racist fantasists battling it out to lead our country. I suspect Johnson wins because he has the Union Jack and that will help him considerably in England. Corbyn's anti-Semitism, opposition to the EU and chronicled support for anti-UK/US/Israeli organisations and regimes alienates more groupings than Johnson's negatives.
    Boris's back catalogue of race-baiting will negate what has been CCHQ's best attack line against Corbyn: anti-semitism. Either they will have to stop using it or the whole thing will descend into who said what about Jews/Blacks/Muslims. That is why I've always been convinced Tory MPs will not vote for Boris.

    (Tbh I am wavering a little on that. Just a tiny bit. I deposited some money to cover my green Hunt position but then did not place the bet, which triggered Betfair to send me an email about the dangers of compulsive gambling.) :smile:
    Considering Boris Johnson's direct male line of ancestors was Turkish and Muslim, I would be surprised if he were actually racist rather than politically opportunistic.
    It is a view but a strange one. People of any race or background can be racist, my experience would be that British people tend to be less racist on average than most other countries, probably because we have a multi cultural society.

    Turkey would be one of the more racist countries around having reduced their minority Armenian and Greek populations by 99% over the last 100 years, and currently still oppressing the Kurds. Lets judge people (including individual Turks of course) by their words and actions rather than their "male" ancestry.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,050
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    Freedom of the press under attack in Australia after police raids :

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-48522729

    Alleged leaks of military classified information regarding Afghanistan on the other hand
    I wasn’t aware freedom of the press extended to allowing them to break the law...
    Exactly
    Uh, whether you have freedom of press is a question of what the laws are.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 16,452

    Betting post

    Tomorrow's Peterborough by-election looks to me, at the moment, better than the Tory leadership race. The following are with Ladbrokes.

    I'm on 10-1 for the Tories to poll under 10%. That has now come in to 7/2 and no longer represents much value to my mind

    Someone posted earlier that they thought Labour might hold on. If so, you can get 4/1 on that. I wouldn't touch that unless it was 14/1. They are in dire straits nationally.

    The BXP look an absolute shoo-in so 1/6 is probably fairly sure.

    LibDems are 33/1 to win. That's value without a doubt, but it still doesn't tempt me as I really don't think they will do it. I'd need 50/1 for a fun flutter. A better bet might be their vote share falling in the 20-30% range at 11/4. You can also get 20/1 on them attaining over 30%. I can see the BXP polling high 30's and possibly over 40% (for which you can get 5/1). Therefore I could see both Lab and Tories squeezed to say 25% collectively. That leaves the LibDem share of 20-30% looking like a good call, with a potential flutter that they make 30%.

    So in summary, there are good bets if you like tight odds, the pick for me being

    LibDems 20-30% at 11/4.

    Otherwise if you enjoy hitting the occasional win at good odds I reckon the two flutters that catch my eye are:

    LibDems for 30%+ at 20/1
    BXP for 40%+ at 5/1

    It's that last one which catches my eye.

    I agree those are decent punts. I would add 5/1 on Lab 10-20% too.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 28,921
    brendan16 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Look at the state of your average unionist in Scotland , beggars belief. Beware if you are of a sensitive nature it is not for before the watershed
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=Vmt9T-WrsvQ

    Ruth must condemn..

    Och, no need now that lot have buggered off to TBP.
    A couple of angry old people shouting nonsense in the street (the evidence in said video) is probably more evidence of the failings of the Scottish health and social care system than representing 'average unionists' in Scotland .Unless you believe the majority of Scots think the same?

    Is that the health and social care system that is much better than England you are talking about , free home care, prescriptions , etc etc. This is the type of stuff that has been encouraged by the Ruth Davidson Tory party
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037
    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories would much rather Corbyn won Peterborough than Nige I expect. On that basis they should be trying very hard indeed.

    They are.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 73,324
    isam said:

    Did John Whitby defect from The Pirate Party?

    No Green Party candidate though
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 73,324
    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories would much rather Corbyn won Peterborough than Nige I expect. On that basis they should be trying very hard indeed.

    No, the Tories would far rather the Brexit Party won Peterborough from Labour leading to a Labour civil war while they can regain Brexit Party voters once Boris takes over
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 33,076
    HYUFD said:
    How did Corbyn manage to argue during WW2?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 28,921

    TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    Look at the state of your average unionist in Scotland , beggars belief. Beware if you are of a sensitive nature it is not for before the watershed
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=Vmt9T-WrsvQ

    I don’t think people in England have the faintest idea of the monsters that the Union has created and sustained in Ireland and Scotland.
    Oh we do

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1129810/conservative-councillor-tory-house-firebombed-graeme-campbell-lanarkshire

    The politician, who was elected in 2007 and again in 2017, believes he was deliberately ­targeted because of his work on local issues.

    But he declared: “I will continue stand up for my community. Some people don’t like what I’m doing because they are not law-abiding citizens
    Love the way Scots Nats talk of the Union as though it is something invented in England. The Scots have been massively overrepresented in the history of the Union and the British Empire. The Empire was largely constructed by Scots. It was very often army boots worn by Scots that crushed the Irish. To try and equate the oppression in Ireland with an imaginary oppression in Scotland is one of the biggest lies perpetrated by Scottish Nationalists.. Scottish Nationalists, English Nationalists; two cheeks of the same very smelly arse.
    You would certainly know given your proximity to said arse
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 73,324
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Raab and Javid are both more small state than Boris

    Well it's hard to know what BJ stands for. But, yes, those 2 are openly small state. A few of the other contenders are too.

    However my point is that if BJ makes it (which he will - well done for calling that before I did) and he gets Hard Brexit through, the Tory policy for 'maximizing the advantages of Global Britain" will be small state, dereg, spending cuts.
    To an extent but Boris is more Cameroon than tooth and claw Thatcherite unlike Raab for example
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 28,921

    malcolmg said:

    Look at the state of your average unionist in Scotland , beggars belief. Beware if you are of a sensitive nature it is not for before the watershed
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=Vmt9T-WrsvQ

    I don’t think people in England have the faintest idea of the monsters that the Union has created and sustained in Ireland and Scotland.
    The monsters in Scotland are Scots. What has the union or England got to do with it? Is this what politics has come to north of the border? Those are bad people, that is a bad thing, it rained yesterday: it must be England's fault. This is what makes it too easy to dismiss genuine complaints.
    I'd be hugely surprised if the folk in the clip from Malc don't identify primarily as British. The clue's in the flag.
    They'd also identify as Scots. The clue is in the accent and no doubt in which team they support in home internationals.
    I bet most would identify as British for sure.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 6,474

    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    As far as the Tory Party goes I don't think the deal matters. That is not in the leader's hands. What matters is having the ability to win the next election. With someone civilised and if Corbyn stays in place I'd say they're in with a chance. With Boris or any of the rest of them them I'd say they're doomed

    Johnson or Corbyn, that will be a tough choice for many millions. I wonder which way they will break?

    It's an important question because the answer will determine which of two starkly different futures lie ahead.

    Large state tax & spend, inside the European Union, or
    Small deregulated state, market primacy, outside the European Union.

    I can't call it.

    Two racist fantasists battling it out to lead our country. I suspect Johnson wins because he has the Union Jack and that will help him considerably in England. Corbyn's anti-Semitism, opposition to the EU and chronicled support for anti-UK/US/Israeli organisations and regimes alienates more groupings than Johnson's negatives.
    Boris's back catalogue of race-baiting will negate what has been CCHQ's best attack line against Corbyn: anti-semitism. Either they will have to stop using it or the whole thing will descend into who said what about Jews/Blacks/Muslims. That is why I've always been convinced Tory MPs will not vote for Boris.

    (Tbh I am wavering a little on that. Just a tiny bit. I deposited some money to cover my green Hunt position but then did not place the bet, which triggered Betfair to send me an email about the dangers of compulsive gambling.) :smile:
    Considering Boris Johnson's direct male line of ancestors was Turkish and Muslim, I would be surprised if he were actually racist rather than politically opportunistic.
    It is a view but a strange one. People of any race or background can be racist, my experience would be that British people tend to be less racist on average than most other countries, probably because we have a multi cultural society.

    Turkey would be one of the more racist countries around having reduced their minority Armenian and Greek populations by 99% over the last 100 years, and currently still oppressing the Kurds. Lets judge people (including individual Turks of course) by their words and actions rather than their "male" ancestry.
    Yes - of course as somebody of Turkish descent Johnson may be seething with anti-Kurdish/Armenian/Greek racism. We all know what racists the Turks are ;-)

    What I meant was that he is unlikely to be genuinely racist against non-Caucasians. Though no doubt someone will be along in a minute to point out that you can be prejudiced against your own race ...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,023
    Are the Brexit Party going to have that 'steering' arrow again on the ballot paper for Peterborough? - Or have lessons been learned?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    kinabalu said:


    Well it's hard to know what BJ stands for.

    Come back after the watershed.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,050
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Where's @DavidL?

    "As usual many were mainly there to attack Israel"

    "Mr Corbyn described the gathering as "the whole wonderful mosaic of diversity and inclusion (except Jews, obviously)"

    The Times today.

    WTAF? He seriously said that?
    No-one else has picked it up so I'd guess it was a joke by a Times writer.
    No, it was a lie by TOPPING. The times article had the parenthetical outside the quotation marks. Still incredibly antisemitic of course, implying that anyone who protests Israel isn't a real Jew, but I've come to expect that from the right-wing press.

    Also if you for one second thought that Corbyn might have actually said that, you've completely lost touch with reality.
    If you look down the thread you'll see a Labour supporter accepting it at face value and approving it as evidence that "change is coming." I am sure he knows his own party better than you or I.
    What about his comment made you think he took the quote at face value? Or that the "change is coming" was a reference to the fabricated quote about Jews and not a follow-on from the preceding sentence about billionaire tax avoiding newspaper owners?

    Sorry, but having been caught exhibiting extreme gullibility, pretending to also have extremely bad reading comprehension isn't the best way to save face. Just admit to yourself that you've obviously gotten a bit too caught up in anti-Corbyn hysteria and use it as an educational moment. We can all get better at seeing the world accurately if we have the humility to learn from our mistakes.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,033
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories would much rather Corbyn won Peterborough than Nige I expect. On that basis they should be trying very hard indeed.

    No, the Tories would far rather the Brexit Party won Peterborough from Labour leading to a Labour civil war while they can regain Brexit Party voters once Boris takes over
    Labour can never, will never & didn't even in the 1995 Tory nadir pose an existential threat to the Tories. The Brexit party can.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,133
    edited June 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    Freedom of the press under attack in Australia after police raids :

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-48522729

    Alleged leaks of military classified information regarding Afghanistan on the other hand
    I wasn’t aware freedom of the press extended to allowing them to break the law...
    Exactly
    Uh, whether you have freedom of press is a question of what the laws are.
    Are you saying the prohibition on publishing classified material is a new law? If not has the Australian press always been under threat then?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 35,611
    kinabalu said:

    Are the Brexit Party going to have that 'steering' arrow again on the ballot paper for Peterborough? - Or have lessons been learned?

    What lessons? Its their logo that has been approved by the Electoral Commission. It doesn't cause any confusion.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 33,076
    edited June 2019

    The Scots have been massively overrepresented in the history of the Union and the British Empire.

    The current population balance is not what it was at the time the union started.

    image
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 34,912
    kinabalu said:

    Are the Brexit Party going to have that 'steering' arrow again on the ballot paper for Peterborough? - Or have lessons been learned?

    What lessons? It didn't confuse me :)
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679


    Apart from all the others.

    kinabalu said:

    Are the Brexit Party going to have that 'steering' arrow again on the ballot paper for Peterborough? - Or have lessons been learned?

    What lessons? Its their logo that has been approved by the Electoral Commission. It doesn't cause any confusion.
    There are only logos on EU ballot papers aren't there?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 73,324
    edited June 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories would much rather Corbyn won Peterborough than Nige I expect. On that basis they should be trying very hard indeed.

    No, the Tories would far rather the Brexit Party won Peterborough from Labour leading to a Labour civil war while they can regain Brexit Party voters once Boris takes over
    Labour can never, will never & didn't even in the 1995 Tory nadir pose an existential threat to the Tories. The Brexit party can.
    Provided Boris becomes leader that is not a problem, Yougov yesterday had a Boris led Tory Party with a 7% lead over Labour with the Brexit Party falling back to 13%. Even Raab cut the Brexit Party back to 17% with the Tories narrowly ahead.

    However if Hunt or Gove succeeded May that would be a problem as the Brexit Party would still be over 20% in that poll with the Tories trailing behind
  • ChrisChris Posts: 6,474

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    Freedom of the press under attack in Australia after police raids :

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-48522729

    Alleged leaks of military classified information regarding Afghanistan on the other hand
    I wasn’t aware freedom of the press extended to allowing them to break the law...
    Exactly
    Uh, whether you have freedom of press is a question of what the laws are.
    Does anyone understand why the police should have been given the power to delete material on journalists' computers?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 3,783
    nico67 said:

    The new slogan to dupe the plebs .

    Clean Managed Brexit.

    Most of the ERG need to be sectioned , utter nutjobs .

    They can try and brand it however they like it won't change the outcome
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    HYUFD said:
    How did Corbyn manage to argue during WW2?
    Sometimes I am not even certain Guido is an impartial seeker after truth.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 47,344

    kinabalu said:

    Are the Brexit Party going to have that 'steering' arrow again on the ballot paper for Peterborough? - Or have lessons been learned?

    What lessons? Its their logo that has been approved by the Electoral Commission. It doesn't cause any confusion.
    The instructions were quite clear: put your mark in the box net to the arrow.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 33,076
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories would much rather Corbyn won Peterborough than Nige I expect. On that basis they should be trying very hard indeed.

    No, the Tories would far rather the Brexit Party won Peterborough from Labour leading to a Labour civil war while they can regain Brexit Party voters once Boris takes over
    Labour can never, will never & didn't even in the 1995 Tory nadir pose an existential threat to the Tories. The Brexit party can.
    Provided Boris becomes leader that is not a problem, Yougov yesterday had a Boris led Tory Party with a 7% lead over Labour with the Brexit Party falling back to 13%. Even Raab cut the Brexit Party back to 17% with the Tories narrowly ahead.

    However if Hunt or Gove succeeded May that would be a problem as the Brexit Party would still be over 20% in that poll with the Tories trailing behind
    You are ignoring a large elephant. Boris Johnson becoming leader does not deliver Brexit. He would be faced with exactly the same issues that brought down Theresa May.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037
    isam said:

    Decent effort, with a betting tip on the Trade Union Elections at the end

    It is a good video. Gove drifting and Hunt firming up a bit this morning.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 2,419
    edited June 2019
    <<Turkey would be one of the more racist countries around having reduced their minority Armenian and Greek populations by 99% over the last 100 years, and currently still oppressing the Kurds. Lets judge people (including individual Turks of course) by their words and actions rather than their "male" ancestry>>

    Way off topic, but in my experience some of the most greek-looking people anywhere still come from the west coast of turkey, and the islands facing it. A good number of people still in the big cities of western turkey today are descended from byzantine greek converts to islam, who themselves were largely descendants of ancient greeks. The christian unconverted ones went back to Greece.

    Re Turkey, Johnson seems to have a interestingly ambivalent attitude to it ; a child of the Turkish administrative elite on the one hand, but very keen on western-orientated Greek classical references to it on the other. I remember him grandly referring to Europa and King Minos when someone asked him about Asia Minor on Any Questions years ago.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 35,611
    edited June 2019



    Apart from all the others.

    There are only logos on EU ballot papers aren't there?

    Not sure what you mean by first line but I thought there were logos on all papers?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,066

    It is a good video. Gove drifting and Hunt firming up a bit this morning.

    I thought it was a fairly mediocre video TBH. Certainly not a patch on the Boris one.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,050

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    Freedom of the press under attack in Australia after police raids :

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-48522729

    Alleged leaks of military classified information regarding Afghanistan on the other hand
    I wasn’t aware freedom of the press extended to allowing them to break the law...
    Exactly
    Uh, whether you have freedom of press is a question of what the laws are.
    Are you saying the prohibition on publishing classified material is a new law? If not has the Australian press always been under threat then?
    I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that "not being able to do X doesn't represent a compromise of freedom of the press so long as X is against the law" is a bizarre argument, regardless of X.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037

    It is a good video. Gove drifting and Hunt firming up a bit this morning.

    I thought it was a fairly mediocre video TBH. Certainly not a patch on the Boris one.
    Boris's was excellent. But I don't think there's much mileage in Hunt trying to out-Boris him.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,033
    edited June 2019
    kinabalu said:

    Are the Brexit Party going to have that 'steering' arrow again on the ballot paper for Peterborough? - Or have lessons been learned?

    The synergy of the arrow between the shown E and the X in the smaller shown BREXIT word and the larger more obvious arrow that also lies between the E and X in the implied but unseen much larger BREXIT lettering both pointing to the box where you need to put yet another X must work on so many subconscious levels......



    I have no idea what Derren Brown's political views are, I suspect not for the Brexit party but the logo is straight out of one of his persuasion shows.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 35,611

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories would much rather Corbyn won Peterborough than Nige I expect. On that basis they should be trying very hard indeed.

    No, the Tories would far rather the Brexit Party won Peterborough from Labour leading to a Labour civil war while they can regain Brexit Party voters once Boris takes over
    Labour can never, will never & didn't even in the 1995 Tory nadir pose an existential threat to the Tories. The Brexit party can.
    Provided Boris becomes leader that is not a problem, Yougov yesterday had a Boris led Tory Party with a 7% lead over Labour with the Brexit Party falling back to 13%. Even Raab cut the Brexit Party back to 17% with the Tories narrowly ahead.

    However if Hunt or Gove succeeded May that would be a problem as the Brexit Party would still be over 20% in that poll with the Tories trailing behind
    You are ignoring a large elephant. Boris Johnson becoming leader does not deliver Brexit. He would be faced with exactly the same issues that brought down Theresa May.
    Everyone will face the same issues. The difference is how you're prepared to address them.

    Clear out and sack all opponents of Brexit who aren't prepared to No Deal should be done on day one. Show you're serious then go for broke with simultaneous no deal planning and negotiating. Get a good deal and great, no deal and so be it.

    If need be hold an election removing the whip from anyone who isn't prepared to follow policy and actually bother to turn up to the debates. Can't do worse than May.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,066

    It is a good video. Gove drifting and Hunt firming up a bit this morning.

    I thought it was a fairly mediocre video TBH. Certainly not a patch on the Boris one.
    Boris's was excellent. But I don't think there's much mileage in Hunt trying to out-Boris him.
    No, none at all. Rather the opposite, in fact: he needs to establish himself as the serious alternative who can actually deliver something, and I don't think that video really hit that target, It was a bit fuzzy: 'vote for me because I once set up a business'.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,066

    Everyone will face the same issues. The difference is how you're prepared to address them.

    Clear out and sack all opponents of Brexit who aren't prepared to No Deal should be done on day one. Show you're serious then go for broke with simultaneous no deal planning and negotiating. Get a good deal and great, no deal and so be it.

    If need be hold an election removing the whip from anyone who isn't prepared to follow policy and actually bother to turn up to the debates. Can't do worse than May.

    Yes, great advice. After all, the ERG's historic mission to utterly destroy the Conservative Party and completely screw up Brexit isn't quite complete, and as you say they really need to go the whole hog just to be sure,
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 26,752
    Dura_Ace said:

    The WX in Pompey looks fucking gash. Trump will be dreaming of Mar-a-Lago.

    It's not too bad; good visibility, warm and dry for the flypast. Light cloud and a bit of wind
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 35,611
    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories would much rather Corbyn won Peterborough than Nige I expect. On that basis they should be trying very hard indeed.

    Although a victory for the Brexit Party brings the Brexit arithmetics a step in the government's favour for critical Brexit votes. The ridiculous backbench bill that was rammed through to extend A50 would have failed by 1 all else being equal instead of passing by 1 had a Brexit MP been in office instead of the convicted criminal on parole who cast the deciding vote.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,133
    edited June 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    Freedom of the press under attack in Australia after police raids :

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-48522729

    Alleged leaks of military classified information regarding Afghanistan on the other hand
    I wasn’t aware freedom of the press extended to allowing them to break the law...
    Exactly
    Uh, whether you have freedom of press is a question of what the laws are.
    Are you saying the prohibition on publishing classified material is a new law? If not has the Australian press always been under threat then?
    I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that "not being able to do X doesn't represent a compromise of freedom of the press so long as X is against the law" is a bizarre argument, regardless of X.
    This is just diversionary wibble. We aren't talking about some new draconian law they're breaking, we are talking about rules on releasing classified information which have been around for ages which most people would see as necessary, its hardly evidence of a loss of press freedom.

  • SirBenjaminSirBenjamin Posts: 238
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories would much rather Corbyn won Peterborough than Nige I expect. On that basis they should be trying very hard indeed.

    No, the Tories would far rather the Brexit Party won Peterborough from Labour leading to a Labour civil war while they can regain Brexit Party voters once Boris takes over

    Also, in order for the Brexit Party to be defeated, they first need exposure in positions of power so that their limitations and competence deficiencies can be revealed.

    It's what happened to UKIP, the BNP; even the SNP to some extent.

    Right now, the Brexit Party has a presence and a power only in the mind of the voter, who can project whatever personalised idealism they choose onto them. As voters have done with the above parties and others when they existed purely as a theoretical protest force with the baggage of having to, like, actually do shit.

    But once there are real BXP MPs and councillors in situ, many of whom will be of a poor calibre due to lack of party organisation, the unravelling will begin as supporters have to confront the reality and humanity of it all, rather than the projections of their minds.

    When candidates that aren't supposed to win win, it rarely lasts. Derek Beackon managed to get himself elected to Tower Hamlets council in the 90s as the BNP rode a mini wave of support, based purely on ideology. It took him getting elected for voters to see just how out of his depth he was - barely literate according to some reports.

    Likewise some of the less talented SNP MPs elected in 2015 whose knuckles one could hear dragging across the floor of the Westminster chamber from Holyrood. Exposed painfully and became sitting targets just two years later.

    This is a necessary stage in the political process. And the BXP will either step up to the mark or, more likely, the scaffolding will be dismantled and they'll fall down..






  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,033
    Come November I, any of the Tory contenders turns into Theresa May II, particularly Boris.
    How can he avoid this. What on earth does he do ?
    It's a box locked on all sides.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,050

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories would much rather Corbyn won Peterborough than Nige I expect. On that basis they should be trying very hard indeed.

    No, the Tories would far rather the Brexit Party won Peterborough from Labour leading to a Labour civil war while they can regain Brexit Party voters once Boris takes over
    Labour can never, will never & didn't even in the 1995 Tory nadir pose an existential threat to the Tories. The Brexit party can.
    Provided Boris becomes leader that is not a problem, Yougov yesterday had a Boris led Tory Party with a 7% lead over Labour with the Brexit Party falling back to 13%. Even Raab cut the Brexit Party back to 17% with the Tories narrowly ahead.

    However if Hunt or Gove succeeded May that would be a problem as the Brexit Party would still be over 20% in that poll with the Tories trailing behind
    You are ignoring a large elephant. Boris Johnson becoming leader does not deliver Brexit. He would be faced with exactly the same issues that brought down Theresa May.
    Everyone will face the same issues. The difference is how you're prepared to address them.

    Clear out and sack all opponents of Brexit who aren't prepared to No Deal should be done on day one. Show you're serious then go for broke with simultaneous no deal planning and negotiating. Get a good deal and great, no deal and so be it.

    If need be hold an election removing the whip from anyone who isn't prepared to follow policy and actually bother to turn up to the debates. Can't do worse than May.
    And you think Boris is going to do any of that? Boris?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,265

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories would much rather Corbyn won Peterborough than Nige I expect. On that basis they should be trying very hard indeed.

    No, the Tories would far rather the Brexit Party won Peterborough from Labour leading to a Labour civil war while they can regain Brexit Party voters once Boris takes over
    Labour can never, will never & didn't even in the 1995 Tory nadir pose an existential threat to the Tories. The Brexit party can.
    Provided Boris becomes leader that is not a problem, Yougov yesterday had a Boris led Tory Party with a 7% lead over Labour with the Brexit Party falling back to 13%. Even Raab cut the Brexit Party back to 17% with the Tories narrowly ahead.

    However if Hunt or Gove succeeded May that would be a problem as the Brexit Party would still be over 20% in that poll with the Tories trailing behind
    You are ignoring a large elephant. Boris Johnson becoming leader does not deliver Brexit. He would be faced with exactly the same issues that brought down Theresa May.
    Everyone will face the same issues. The difference is how you're prepared to address them.

    Clear out and sack all opponents of Brexit who aren't prepared to No Deal should be done on day one. Show you're serious then go for broke with simultaneous no deal planning and negotiating. Get a good deal and great, no deal and so be it.

    If need be hold an election removing the whip from anyone who isn't prepared to follow policy and actually bother to turn up to the debates. Can't do worse than May.
    You obviously can't count. One hopes that the eventual winner of the current contest can. The auguries, however, are not promising.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,066

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories would much rather Corbyn won Peterborough than Nige I expect. On that basis they should be trying very hard indeed.

    No, the Tories would far rather the Brexit Party won Peterborough from Labour leading to a Labour civil war while they can regain Brexit Party voters once Boris takes over
    Labour can never, will never & didn't even in the 1995 Tory nadir pose an existential threat to the Tories. The Brexit party can.
    Provided Boris becomes leader that is not a problem, Yougov yesterday had a Boris led Tory Party with a 7% lead over Labour with the Brexit Party falling back to 13%. Even Raab cut the Brexit Party back to 17% with the Tories narrowly ahead.

    However if Hunt or Gove succeeded May that would be a problem as the Brexit Party would still be over 20% in that poll with the Tories trailing behind
    You are ignoring a large elephant. Boris Johnson becoming leader does not deliver Brexit. He would be faced with exactly the same issues that brought down Theresa May.
    Everyone will face the same issues. The difference is how you're prepared to address them.

    Clear out and sack all opponents of Brexit who aren't prepared to No Deal should be done on day one. Show you're serious then go for broke with simultaneous no deal planning and negotiating. Get a good deal and great, no deal and so be it.

    If need be hold an election removing the whip from anyone who isn't prepared to follow policy and actually bother to turn up to the debates. Can't do worse than May.
    And you think Boris is going to do any of that? Boris?
    It's rather sweet, isn't it?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 35,611
    edited June 2019

    Everyone will face the same issues. The difference is how you're prepared to address them.

    Clear out and sack all opponents of Brexit who aren't prepared to No Deal should be done on day one. Show you're serious then go for broke with simultaneous no deal planning and negotiating. Get a good deal and great, no deal and so be it.

    If need be hold an election removing the whip from anyone who isn't prepared to follow policy and actually bother to turn up to the debates. Can't do worse than May.

    Yes, great advice. After all, the ERG's historic mission to utterly destroy the Conservative Party and completely screw up Brexit isn't quite complete, and as you say they really need to go the whole hog just to be sure,
    All or nothing. Time for Brexiteers to utterly own whatever happens next.

    Remainers lost the referendum but still took control afterwards, but failed to pass a flacidly soft Brexit. They should now stand well clear and let the Brexiteers own Brexit for good or ill.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,066

    All or nothing. Time for Brexiteers to utterly own whatever happens next. Remainers should stand clear.

    Better get their consent then. How do you suggest Boris does that?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 8,411
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Did John Whitby defect from The Pirate Party?

    No Green Party candidate though
    2nd down on the left.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,050

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    Freedom of the press under attack in Australia after police raids :

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-48522729

    Alleged leaks of military classified information regarding Afghanistan on the other hand
    I wasn’t aware freedom of the press extended to allowing them to break the law...
    Exactly
    Uh, whether you have freedom of press is a question of what the laws are.
    Are you saying the prohibition on publishing classified material is a new law? If not has the Australian press always been under threat then?
    I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that "not being able to do X doesn't represent a compromise of freedom of the press so long as X is against the law" is a bizarre argument, regardless of X.
    This is just diversionary wibble. We aren't talking about some new draconian law they're breaking, we are talking about century-old rules on releasing classified information, its hardly evidence of a loss of press freedom.

    I have no idea about the facts of the Australia case and as such I have no opinion on whether the police were justified or not. That doesn't mean I'm going to give a pass to your comment, the logic of which gives carte blanche for any government, no matter how draconian, to provide their own definition of press freedom, behind the defence of "well, it's the law".

    If you just misspoke, then fine, I'm happy to leave it at that.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,675

    Yesterday was instructive for anyone wanting to see how the Labour Party evolves from here.

    According to the cancer-supporting members yesterday was a triumph. Rather than bend his life-long and always flawless principles by attending the state visit as invited, Jezbollah instead boycotted it and gave a foaming at the mouth rant to the protest crowd. Instead of commemorating our shared sacrifice in blood he chose to shat on it from the stage.

    And in doing so the Corbynites cheered him on - its FANTASTIC that instead of acting like a Prime Minister in waiting he acted like a sad old man howling at the moon in self-righteous petulance. Its PERFECT that he stood up to the neo-liberal and boycotted. Once Corbyn leads Labour to the inevitable 704 seat majority in the next general election, all Corbyn has to do is address the protest rally outside 1,600 Pennsylvania Avenue he chose to organise rather than meet the President inside - address the rally and the neolibs will FALL.

    A Wazzock leading the party. Wazzocks inside the party cheering on the cretinous stupidity of turning 119 years of socialist struggle for power into a Socialist Worker protest.

    I for one cannot wait for the divorce to happen.

    It already has happened has it not? It was called Change UK.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037
    Pulpstar said:

    Come November I, any of the Tory contenders turns into Theresa May II, particularly Boris.
    How can he avoid this. What on earth does he do ?
    It's a box locked on all sides.

    A General Election, clearly. Though they can't say that.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,023

    Come back after the watershed.

    :smile:

    Yes, sorry, 'BJ' is not a great name for him.

    I'm in trouble with this actually. Not doing 'Boris' - why should I help propagate his tacky tabloid appeal? - but somehow BoJo isn't right, and neither is 'Johnson'.

    MISTER Johnson? Even worse.

    Perhaps I will keep it simple, stop trying to be so smart, and just go with the two correct names in the correct order - Boris Johnson.

    Boris Johnson, Boris Johnson, Boris Johnson.

    Yes. It works.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,133
    edited June 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    Freedom of the press under attack in Australia after police raids :

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-48522729

    Alleged leaks of military classified information regarding Afghanistan on the other hand
    I wasn’t aware freedom of the press extended to allowing them to break the law...
    Exactly
    Uh, whether you have freedom of press is a question of what the laws are.
    Are you saying the prohibition on publishing classified material is a new law? If not has the Australian press always been under threat then?
    I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that "not being able to do X doesn't represent a compromise of freedom of the press so long as X is against the law" is a bizarre argument, regardless of X.
    This is just diversionary wibble. We aren't talking about some new draconian law they're breaking, we are talking about century-old rules on releasing classified information, its hardly evidence of a loss of press freedom.

    I have no idea about the facts of the Australia case and as such I have no opinion on whether the police were justified or not. That doesn't mean I'm going to give a pass to your comment, the logic of which gives carte blanche for any government, no matter how draconian, to provide their own definition of press freedom, behind the defence of "well, it's the law".

    If you just misspoke, then fine, I'm happy to leave it at that.
    I'm sorry, I forgot I was on PB and so needed to suit the anally retentive. Yes perhaps I should have been more specific and said "I wasn’t aware freedom of the press extended to allowing them to break the laws accepted by pretty much all the developed nations on planet Earth".
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,023
    edited June 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    The synergy of the arrow between the shown E and the X in the smaller shown BREXIT word and the larger more obvious arrow that also lies between the E and X in the implied but unseen much larger BREXIT lettering both pointing to the box where you need to put yet another X must work on so many subconscious levels......

    Yes, I see what you mean. It's even more sinister than I thought.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,675

    loss of vetoes to QMV (due to Labour reneging upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum),

    Thatcher extended QMV as part of the Single European Act. It makes for more democratic decision making if minor things can't be blocked by a single state.


    As for 'murmuring', you'll recall there was similar about an EU Army. "A fantasy" Clegg said. Now a reality.

    It's still a fantasy in the form peddled by Eurosceptics of a single army controlled by the Commission, and as @Dura_Ace will tall you, further defence integration will happen anyway.
    He can say what he likes. If it's against the direction of flow, it will not happen.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,033

    Pulpstar said:

    Come November I, any of the Tory contenders turns into Theresa May II, particularly Boris.
    How can he avoid this. What on earth does he do ?
    It's a box locked on all sides.

    A General Election, clearly. Though they can't say that.
    It's a gamble but a General Election promising we'll really leave this time then passing the withdrawal agreement with a majority would be the best way out. Once we're out very few will care about the detail, even Corbyn will probably be relieved he or his succesor can move onto other issues
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,066
    edited June 2019

    Pulpstar said:

    Come November I, any of the Tory contenders turns into Theresa May II, particularly Boris.
    How can he avoid this. What on earth does he do ?
    It's a box locked on all sides.

    A General Election, clearly. Though they can't say that.
    Unfortunately he's effectively locked that one out as well, with his lunatic 31st October promise (and that's without even worrying about the very strong likelihood that he'd lose badly).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 35,611

    All or nothing. Time for Brexiteers to utterly own whatever happens next. Remainers should stand clear.

    Better get their consent then. How do you suggest Boris does that?
    I'd suggest consent was sought in 2016. I'd also suggest consent is being further sought right now via the leadership election for the manifesto he is running on. He's been clear on his policy rather than saying vapid platitudes like "Brexit means Brexit".

    The results of both the referendum and the leadership contest should be respected and anyone who isn't on board with respecting either or both of those should have the whip removed if necessary.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 35,611

    Pulpstar said:

    Come November I, any of the Tory contenders turns into Theresa May II, particularly Boris.
    How can he avoid this. What on earth does he do ?
    It's a box locked on all sides.

    A General Election, clearly. Though they can't say that.
    Unfortunately he's locked that one out as well, with his lunatic 31st October promise (and that's without even worrying about the very strong likelihood that he'd lose badly).
    No Deal Brexit honours it. The EU blinking and giving us a deal honours it. I'm OK either way and neither is lunatic.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,066
    edited June 2019

    All or nothing. Time for Brexiteers to utterly own whatever happens next. Remainers should stand clear.

    Better get their consent then. How do you suggest Boris does that?
    I'd suggest consent was sought in 2016. I'd also suggest consent is being further sought right now via the leadership election for the manifesto he is running on. He's been clear on his policy rather than saying vapid platitudes like "Brexit means Brexit".

    The results of both the referendum and the leadership contest should be respected and anyone who isn't on board with respecting either or both of those should have the whip removed if necessary.
    LOL! Boris 'clear on his policy'! Very good!

    Still, I'm intrigued by your insistence on party discipline. Should it have applied in the Meaningful Votes?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,023

    What lessons? Its their logo that has been approved by the Electoral Commission. It doesn't cause any confusion.

    Well I was very conscious of it when I was voting.
  • hamiltonacehamiltonace Posts: 642
    edited June 2019

    The Scots have been massively overrepresented in the history of the Union and the British Empire.

    The current population balance is not what it was at the time the union started.

    image
    In the last 10 years England has added almost as many people as Scotland's population. This rapid growth is causing strains in the union and England. Scotland feels like a small town sitting next to a volcano.

    There is no doubt that the economy is beginning to slow now. The biggest problem is investment in new projects is drying up and the image of the country internationally is terrible. Is Boris really the man to change this? The guy who was hopeless as a foreign minister and said f**k business.

    By October we will be in recession and unemployment may be starting to rise. No deal might have worked right at the start but by October this year it will be ignored by the rest of the world who have already moved on. We have lost our influence.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,033

    Pulpstar said:

    Come November I, any of the Tory contenders turns into Theresa May II, particularly Boris.
    How can he avoid this. What on earth does he do ?
    It's a box locked on all sides.

    A General Election, clearly. Though they can't say that.
    Unfortunately he's effectively locked that one out as well, with his lunatic 31st October promise (and that's without even worrying about the very strong likelihood that he'd lose badly).
    Can he get enough unity so that it's clearly the Labour party and others blocking a "No deal" exit ? Grieve and a couple of others might have to resign the whip for the greater good... if ALL Tory and DUP vote for "No deal" and it is blocked then that gives the narrative for the upcoming GE.
    It's a vote he wants to lose narrowly and through the actions of others, God help him if he wins it :p
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,023

    What lessons? It didn't confuse me :)

    Would not expect a PB regular to be thrown by it. I wasn't either. I did notice it though. It was impossible not to. So one does wonder.

    In fact, I have just had a cheeky few quid on LABOUR to win Peterborough at around 8/1.

    The fact that the BP logo will not be on the ballot paper this time (logos only allowed in Euros apparently) is not, I hasten to add, the main reason for me doing the bet - but it is a factor.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 35,611

    All or nothing. Time for Brexiteers to utterly own whatever happens next. Remainers should stand clear.

    Better get their consent then. How do you suggest Boris does that?
    I'd suggest consent was sought in 2016. I'd also suggest consent is being further sought right now via the leadership election for the manifesto he is running on. He's been clear on his policy rather than saying vapid platitudes like "Brexit means Brexit".

    The results of both the referendum and the leadership contest should be respected and anyone who isn't on board with respecting either or both of those should have the whip removed if necessary.
    LOL! Boris 'clear on his policy'! Very good!

    Still, I'm intrigued by your insistence on party discipline. Should it have applied in the Meaningful Votes?
    If May had any fortitude then yes it should have. She was too weak and spineless though which was the cause of all this mess we find ourselves in.

    It's also exactly how Major passed Maastricht remember. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, the only way out of this is to make it a confidence matter. Either the vote is won, or an election is sought (which Corbyn would grant) with all nays deselected. This is a matter of confidence.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 53,654
    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    malcolmg said:

    brendan16 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Look at the state of your average unionist in Scotland , beggars belief. Beware if you are of a sensitive nature it is not for before the watershed
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=Vmt9T-WrsvQ

    Ruth must condemn..

    Och, no need now that lot have buggered off to TBP.
    A couple of angry old people shouting nonsense in the street (the evidence in said video) is probably more evidence of the failings of the Scottish health and social care system than representing 'average unionists' in Scotland .Unless you believe the majority of Scots think the same?

    Is that the health and social care system that is much better than England you are talking about , free home care, prescriptions , etc etc. This is the type of stuff that has been encouraged by the Ruth Davidson Tory party
    malcolmg said:

    brendan16 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Look at the state of your average unionist in Scotland , beggars belief. Beware if you are of a sensitive nature it is not for before the watershed
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=Vmt9T-WrsvQ

    Ruth must condemn..

    Och, no need now that lot have buggered off to TBP.
    A couple of angry old people shouting nonsense in the street (the evidence in said video) is probably more evidence of the failings of the Scottish health and social care system than representing 'average unionists' in Scotland .Unless you believe the majority of Scots think the same?

    Is that the health and social care system that is much better than England you are talking about , free home care, prescriptions , etc etc. This is the type of stuff that has been encouraged by the Ruth Davidson Tory party
    You sort of missed the irony? But it does help if you get thousands more funding per head for services than the Welsh and English?

    Of course those are only ‘average’ figures!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,033

    The Scots have been massively overrepresented in the history of the Union and the British Empire.

    The current population balance is not what it was at the time the union started.

    image
    In the last 10 years England has added almost as many people as Scotland's population. This rapid growth is causing strains in the union and England. Scotland feels like a small town sitting next to a volcano.

    There is no doubt that the economy is beginning to slow now. The biggest problem is investment in new projects is drying up and the image of the country internationally is terrible. Is Boris really the man to change this? The guy who was hopeless as a foreign minister and said f**k business.

    By October we will be in recession and unemployment may be starting to rise. No deal might have worked right at the start but by October this year it will be ignored by the rest of the world who have already moved on. We have lost our influence.
    Is the dip the spanish flu pandemic of 1918 ?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,797
    Mr Pioneers.

    Look on the bright side, it takes me back to my youth, with the Trots selling pamphlets criticising the Communist Party of GB for not being socialist enough.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037

    All or nothing. Time for Brexiteers to utterly own whatever happens next. Remainers should stand clear.

    Better get their consent then. How do you suggest Boris does that?
    I'd suggest consent was sought in 2016. I'd also suggest consent is being further sought right now via the leadership election for the manifesto he is running on. He's been clear on his policy rather than saying vapid platitudes like "Brexit means Brexit".

    The results of both the referendum and the leadership contest should be respected and anyone who isn't on board with respecting either or both of those should have the whip removed if necessary.
    LOL! Boris 'clear on his policy'! Very good!

    Still, I'm intrigued by your insistence on party discipline. Should it have applied in the Meaningful Votes?
    If May had any fortitude then yes it should have. She was too weak and spineless though which was the cause of all this mess we find ourselves in.

    It's also exactly how Major passed Maastricht remember. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, the only way out of this is to make it a confidence matter. Either the vote is won, or an election is sought (which Corbyn would grant) with all nays deselected. This is a matter of confidence.
    Quite so:

    On January 16th 2019, the House voted by 325 to 306 against a motion of no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government. Yet the day before, a huge chunk of those 325 (including the DUP) had voted against the Government’s central policy and purpose, namely the Withdrawal Agreement, when that went down to its historic 230-vote defeat. In previous times a vote of that magnitude would have been framed as a matter of confidence in the government itself, and thus treated with the seriousness it deserved.

    It is clear from subsequent developments that a number of MPs could have accepted the deal but preferred not to vote for it. This may have been in the reasonable hope that they could get closer to their own position. Indeed the EU did provide some further legal assurances as a result.

    However my overriding impression from both MV1 and MV2 is that these MPs – most of the ERG and many Labour MPs sitting in Leave seats – wanted the deal to pass (eventually) but without getting their own hands dirty by actually voting for it themselves. This is a failure of salesmanship on the part of the PM and a failure of whipping, but it’s also a failure of those MPs to face up to their own responsibilities.


    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/03/21/at-this-critical-time-a-look-at-matters-of-confidence-in-the-political-arena/
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 23,798
    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Where's @DavidL?

    "As usual many were mainly there to attack Israel"

    "Mr Corbyn described the gathering as "the whole wonderful mosaic of diversity and inclusion (except Jews, obviously)"

    The Times today.

    WTAF? He seriously said that?
    Mea Culpa! As others have pointed out I cocked up the quotation marks!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,675
    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The synergy of the arrow between the shown E and the X in the smaller shown BREXIT word and the larger more obvious arrow that also lies between the E and X in the implied but unseen much larger BREXIT lettering both pointing to the box where you need to put yet another X must work on so many subconscious levels......

    Yes, I see what you mean. It's even more sinister than I thought.
    Does it? Are you really suggesting that there's someone engaged enough to vote in the euro elections (or indeed any elections), who is opposed to Brexit, who is going to vote for the Brexit party for that reason? All it needs is to be designed by the Russians and we can start another conspiracy theory to explain why all those poor benighted fools voted in favour of Brexit again...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,033

    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The synergy of the arrow between the shown E and the X in the smaller shown BREXIT word and the larger more obvious arrow that also lies between the E and X in the implied but unseen much larger BREXIT lettering both pointing to the box where you need to put yet another X must work on so many subconscious levels......

    Yes, I see what you mean. It's even more sinister than I thought.
    Does it? Are you really suggesting that there's someone engaged enough to vote in the euro elections (or indeed any elections), who is opposed to Brexit, who is going to vote for the Brexit party for that reason? All it needs is to be designed by the Russians and we can start another conspiracy theory to explain why all those poor benighted fools voted in favour of Brexit again...
    I don't know what Kinabalu is saying, all I'm saying is it is exceedingly good logo design.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 53,654
    You can see the Black Death (kicks off around 1346) on that graph.

    However, I think population was declining before then, so there'll be a little statistical fuzziness, but it's interesting stuff nevertheless.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,023
    edited June 2019

    Does it? Are you really suggesting that there's someone engaged enough to vote in the euro elections (or indeed any elections), who is opposed to Brexit, who is going to vote for the Brexit party for that reason? All it needs is to be designed by the Russians and we can start another conspiracy theory to explain why all those poor benighted fools voted in favour of Brexit again...

    Impact on the margins, yes. Small but not totally immaterial.

    These things do have an influence. Remember the battle to have 'Yes' in a Yes/No Referendum? Or to be at the top of the ballot paper?

    (Not saying it was cheating BTW - just clever.)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    The Scots have been massively overrepresented in the history of the Union and the British Empire.

    The current population balance is not what it was at the time the union started.

    image
    In the last 10 years England has added almost as many people as Scotland's population. This rapid growth is causing strains in the union and England. Scotland feels like a small town sitting next to a volcano.

    You have to ask why Scotland is so unappealling for immigrants.

    The weather ? The moribund economy run by the SNP ? The midges ? The high SNP taxes ?

    All of the above ?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 28,144

    HYUFD said:
    How did Corbyn manage to argue during WW2?
    Sometimes I am not even certain Guido is an impartial seeker after truth.
    Corbyn probably said we should have disarmed in June 45 or something
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,675
    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The synergy of the arrow between the shown E and the X in the smaller shown BREXIT word and the larger more obvious arrow that also lies between the E and X in the implied but unseen much larger BREXIT lettering both pointing to the box where you need to put yet another X must work on so many subconscious levels......

    Yes, I see what you mean. It's even more sinister than I thought.
    Does it? Are you really suggesting that there's someone engaged enough to vote in the euro elections (or indeed any elections), who is opposed to Brexit, who is going to vote for the Brexit party for that reason? All it needs is to be designed by the Russians and we can start another conspiracy theory to explain why all those poor benighted fools voted in favour of Brexit again...
    I don't know what Kinabalu is saying, all I'm saying is it is exceedingly good logo design.
    Perhaps I'm disastrously unobservant, but I'd not noticed the arrow was the negative space between a big 'BREXIT', I just thought the arrow looked oddly squashed. It beats a purple pound on a yellow background at any rate.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 2,975
    Lol @ De Blasio. Also Gabbard who has somehow evaded triple digits on Betfair for way too long. She's been around 40s for weeks!


  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037
    I'm amazed Trump has found the time to watch the cricket today:
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 53,654
    Mr. Flashman (deceased), I wonder if it's due to fewer big cities.
This discussion has been closed.