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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Will Corbyn be Labour leader at the next general election?

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  • Actual lol at this paragraph from https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/04/trigger-ballots-prove-an-unwelcome-distraction-for-under-fire-labour-mps :

    However, the group [Momentum]’s mass campaign on the [trigger ballot] issue has also sparked some member mix-ups. “Some members are demanding them in seats where they don’t even have Labour MPs and have to be reminded that first they need to help elect a Labour MP and then they can worry about deselecting them,” one party source said.

    I thought this was going to be about some sort of "trigger warning" mix-up. I guess they could always try and de-select Blairite PPCs
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    AndyJS said:

    360 ahead. Surely that is plenty now.

    They'll go for 400 I think.
    I’ll take 380 if there’s a sweepstake. 9 overs with the ball tonight if they declare now.
  • Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    ydoethur said:

    In fairness @leslie48 the Tories should be equally ashamed of themselves for electing their own form of Corbyn as leader.

    That’s unfair to Corbyn (four words I have never before uttered in that order). Corbyn does at least have principles and a burning, if misguided, desire to make the world a better place. ABDPJohnson just wants to be world king.
    Corbyn does not have principles. He says he does, but he puts them aside the instant they cause him a problem. For example, although a vegetarian he ate meat so as not to fall out with Fidel Castro, and he voted against welfare cuts only to decide to keep them all when he needed a populist manifesto.

    As for making the world a better place, I disagree. He wants to give his supporters what they want, which is altogether different - but very like Johnson.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    Is Tim Paine delaying the declaration to show Steve Smith who's captain?

    Or is Nathan Lyon perhaps injured?

    Or is it, all appearances to the contrary, a very flat pitch and they're fearful a four man attack will take a pounding?
  • Remember when it was 122-8 on the first day.....that feels a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    Byronic said:

    PClipp said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    What is wrong with the system is the failure of Parliamentarians to respect the Leave vote by either voting for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal

    No,is).
    Absolutely, Mr Stodge, I couldn`t agree with you more. The whole Brexit nonsense has been a squalid little attempt to patch up internal disputes within the Conservatives - and the slight infection within the Conservative Party has now spread to the entire country.
    The "whole Brexit nonsense" is the fault of europhiles, over 40 long years, pretending that we weren't losing any sovereignty, that the EU was just a trading bloc, that there were no plans for a Federal this or EU-wide that, even as everyone could see with their own eyes that this was happening.

    To add to this, and much worse, europhiles compounded the deceit with a series of wholly fraudulent offers of referendums - which were then taken away, or forgotten, when it became more politically convenient to ignore the voters.

    This built up the pressure which was finally released in the most damaging away, as a vote for OUT. It could have been avoided, entirely, if europhiles had once - just once - given a vote on any of the previous contentious Treaties.

    That famous line from Chernobyl is horribly apt.

    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, the debt is paid"

    The endless lies of the europhiles incurred a terrible debt. The repayment was Brexit.
    I thought you voted remain?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2019

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
  • ydoethur said:

    In fairness @leslie48 the Tories should be equally ashamed of themselves for electing their own form of Corbyn as leader.

    That’s unfair to Corbyn (four words I have never before uttered in that order). Corbyn does at least have principles and a burning, if misguided, desire to make the world a better place. ABDPJohnson just wants to be world king.

    If Corbyn’s principles extended to defeating the Tories he’d stand down as Labour leader.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2019
    Australia are 1.7 with Betfair Exchange. Value?

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.160126860
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2019
    Declared. 398 the target.

    Bit harsh to leave Pattinson on 47*

    Half a dozen overs for them with the ball tonight.
  • HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?

    It’s the same Boris Johnson who has said he’s a huge admirer of Trump.

  • ydoethur said:

    Is Tim Paine delaying the declaration to show Steve Smith who's captain?

    Or is Nathan Lyon perhaps injured?

    Or is it, all appearances to the contrary, a very flat pitch and they're fearful a four man attack will take a pounding?

    England need rain.

  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
  • AndyJS said:

    Australia are 1.7 with Betfair Exchange. Value?

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.160126860

    1.63 now - I've taken it - gives me something to watch tomorrow.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    It’s the same Boris Johnson who described Africans as “ Picanninnies” with “watermelon smiles”. Indeed the same Boris Johnson who described Muslim women as looking like “letterboxes”. You know, the one who said the people of Papua New Guinea were “cannibals”. The guy who wrote in The Spectator that Africans would be better off if ruled by white colonisers and that some children he saw singing on the continent were “AIDS - ridden.” The bloke who described the then President of the USA as “part-Kenyan” (like the current one he will describe as “part-German” no doubt) with an “ancestral” dislike as a reason for his alleged “hatred” of the U.K.

    That one.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    What is wrong with the system is the failure of Parliamentarians to respect the Leave vote by either voting for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal

    No, it is not the fault of MPs. It is the fault of the Conservative Government from 2016 and the manner in which they chose unilaterally to interpret the result of the 23/6/16 vote. Instead of seeking to open the discussion and unite the country, they shut down debate, told us all we should trust Theresa (which, as it turned out, we didn't) and spent more time trying to keep their fractured little band together.
    I didn't vote LEAVE to see us crash out without a Deal - I couldn't conceive of a Government so inept as to allow such a thing to happen. We've wasted three and a half years not sorting out all the other problems and issues facing the country or rather your Party has. It's time to draw stumps and cut our losses.
    As for the WA, the genius of Theresa May and her team was in evolving a 585-page mass of legalese which could mean anything to anyone (and presumably they assumed it would be acceptable on that basis). Unfortunately, when people couldn't see what they wanted to see in the morass of verbiage they assumed the worst - it's either an incredibly soft Brexit or it's too hard. Thus, May has managed to antagonise everybody and seen her WA crash and burn.
    I'm sure there was a satisfactory deal to be had but May spent too much time trying to come up with something she could sell to the Conservative Party she forgot she had to sell it to everyone else (including the 48% who voted REMAIN and have a say in all this).
    Nope, the Withdrawal Agreement met the requirements of the EU ie the exit Bill, citizens' rights and the Irish border to move to the transition period.

    The political declaration regarding the future relationship to be negotiated in the transition period was non binding and could have included single market membership or a Canada style FTA depending on how things worked out.
    By rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement diehard Remainers made No Deal inevitable and have nobody to blame but themselves
    You do talk utter twaddle, HY, my friend. I think you are spending too much time mixing with the higher echelons of the Tory Party, where the talk upper twaddle as well.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    What is wrong with the system is the failure of Parliamentarians to respect the Leave vote by either voting for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal

    No, it is not the fault of MPs. It is the fault of the Conservative Government from 2016 and the manner in which they chose unilaterally to interpret the result of the 23/6/16 vote. Instead of seeking to open the discussion and unite the country, they shut down debate, told us all we should trust Theresa (which, as it turned out, we didn't) and spent more time trying to keep their fractured little band together.
    I didn't vote LEAVE to see us crash out without a Deal - I couldn't conceive of a Government so inept as to allow such a thing to happen. We've wasted three and a half years not sorting out all the other problems and issues facing the country or rather your Party has. It's time to draw stumps and cut our losses.
    As for the WA, the genius of Theresa May and her team was in evolving a 585-page mass of legalese which could mean anything to anyone (and presumably they assumed it would be acceptable on that basis). Unfortunately, when people couldn't see what they wanted to see in the morass of verbiage they assumed the worst - it's either an incredibly soft Brexit or it's too hard. Thus, May has managed to antagonise everybody and seen her WA crash and burn.
    I'm sure there was a satisfactory deal to be had but May spent too much time trying to come up with something she could sell to the Conservative Party she forgot she had to sell it to everyone else (including the 48% who voted REMAIN and have a say in all this).
    Nope, the Withdrawal Agreement met the requirements of the EU ie the exit Bill, citizens' rights and the Irish border to move to the transition period.

    The political declaration regarding the future relationship to be negotiated in the transition period was non binding and could have included single market membership or a Canada style FTA depending on how things worked out.
    By rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement diehard Remainers made No Deal inevitable and have nobody to blame but themselves
    You do talk utter twaddle, HY, my friend. I think you are spending too much time mixing with the higher echelons of the Tory Party, where the talk upper twaddle as well.
    That is truly wonderful Freudian slip.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    AndyJS said:

    Australia are 1.7 with Betfair Exchange. Value?

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.160126860

    Depends whether or not you believe the weather forecast? If the start tomorrow is delayed that price will go out.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    On topic - kinda

    I've already laid Oct 19 as next general election because of peer pressure on here. So that's all well and good. I'm thinking of laying more - my only question is.... Do I have to wait until 2020 to be paid?

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.154849135

    In November, Betfair will remove the October category, leaving you green on all markets.

    This means you get your exposure back but you wait for your winnings.
  • On topic - kinda

    I've already laid Oct 19 as next general election because of peer pressure on here. So that's all well and good. I'm thinking of laying more - my only question is.... Do I have to wait until 2020 to be paid?

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.154849135

    In November, Betfair will remove the October category, leaving you green on all markets.

    This means you get your exposure back but you wait for your winnings.
    Great, thanks for that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    It’s the same Boris Johnson who described Africans as “ Picanninnies” with “watermelon smiles”. Indeed the same Boris Johnson who described Muslim women as looking like “letterboxes”. You know, the one who said the people of Papua New Guinea were “cannibals”. The guy who wrote in The Spectator that Africans would be better off if ruled by white colonisers and that some children he saw singing on the continent were “AIDS - ridden.” The bloke who described the then President of the USA as “part-Kenyan” (like the current one he will describe as “part-German” no doubt) with an “ancestral” dislike as a reason for his alleged “hatred” of the U.K.

    That one.
    The burka does indeed prevent Muslim women displaying their face, Papua New Guinea has had cannibalism incidents even as late as 2012.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/papuanewguinea/9398339/Papua-New-Guinea-charges-29-alleged-cannibals.html

    Obama did indeed remove the bust of Churchill from the Oval Office which Trump restored.

    I also notice you completely ignored the fact the Tories now have more ethnic minorities in the top 3 posts of the Great Offices of State than their Labour and LD shadows because Tories take action to promote minorities on merit unlike the patronising left who prefer a victim mentality
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
    You had most of those votes already. You’ve lost nearly all of the social liberals Cameron brought on board. Gay professionals who would have voted for Cameron, indeed gay people in general, tend to have a problem with being described as “tank-topped bum boys” as the PM so memorably described them.
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,093
    Byronic said:

    To be fair, England look totally knackered, as well they might - having just come from winning the World Cup, for the very first time, in the greatest game of sport in the history of sport.

    They must be physically AND emotionally drained. And motivation must be lacking. The Ashes, however historic, cannot match that World Cup win.

    The Ashes matches and likely surpasses anything else in cricket.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    It’s the same Boris Johnson who described Africans as “ Picanninnies” with “watermelon smiles”. Indeed the same Boris Johnson who described Muslim women as looking like “letterboxes”. You know, the one who said the people of Papua New Guinea were “cannibals”. The guy who wrote in The Spectator that Africans would be better off if ruled by white colonisers and that some children he saw singing on the continent were “AIDS - ridden.” The bloke who described the then President of the USA as “part-Kenyan” (like the current one he will describe as “part-German” no doubt) with an “ancestral” dislike as a reason for his alleged “hatred” of the U.K.

    That one.
    The burka does indeed prevent Muslim women displaying their face, Papua New Guinea has had cannibalism incidents even as late as 2012.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/papuanewguinea/9398339/Papua-New-Guinea-charges-29-alleged-cannibals.html

    Obama did indeed remove the bust of Churchill from the Oval Office which Trump restored.

    I also notice you completely ignored the fact the Tories now have more ethnic minorities in the top 3 posts of the Great Offices of State than their Labour and LD shadows because Tories take action to promote minorities on merit unlike the patronising left who prefer a victim mentality
    You will doubtless recall it being discussed that Boris would likely appoint female and BAME ministers to give himself political cover for his past utterances. The bets paid off. Hope you were on.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Drutt said:

    Byronic said:

    To be fair, England look totally knackered, as well they might - having just come from winning the World Cup, for the very first time, in the greatest game of sport in the history of sport.

    They must be physically AND emotionally drained. And motivation must be lacking. The Ashes, however historic, cannot match that World Cup win.

    The Ashes matches and likely surpasses anything else in cricket.
    And that is just in umpiring mistakes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2019
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
    You had most of those votes already. You’ve lost nearly all of the social liberals Cameron brought on board. Gay professionals who would have voted for Cameron, indeed gay people in general, tend to have a problem with being described as “tank-topped bum boys” as the PM so memorably described them.
    Have we really, I was canvassing yesterday with 3 open out gay men amongst us so utter rubbish. Boris himself backed gay marriage.

    Indeed many homosexuals receive more homophobia from Corbyn Labour than the Tories, for example in East London LGBT Labour Party members have been driven out of the party by homophobic bullying


    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/06/28/lgbt-labour-homophobia-west-ham/
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    ydoethur said:

    In fairness @leslie48 the Tories should be equally ashamed of themselves for electing their own form of Corbyn as leader.

    That’s unfair to Corbyn (four words I have never before uttered in that order). Corbyn does at least have principles and a burning, if misguided, desire to make the world a better place. ABDPJohnson just wants to be world king.

    If Corbyn’s principles extended to defeating the Tories he’d stand down as Labour leader.

    But in favour of whom? Labour's moderates really screwed the pooch (whatever that means) when they refused to serve in the shadow cabinet. That's why we can't discuss Stella Creasey, to take just one example, as the next leader.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    It’s the same Boris Johnson who described Africans as “ Picanninnies” with “watermelon smiles”. Indeed the same Boris Johnson who described Muslim women as looking like “letterboxes”. You know, the one who said the people of Papua New Guinea were “cannibals”. The guy who wrote in The Spectator that Africans would be better off if ruled by white colonisers and that some children he saw singing on the continent were “AIDS - ridden.” The bloke who described the then President of the USA as “part-Kenyan” (like the current one he will describe as “part-German” no doubt) with an “ancestral” dislike as a reason for his alleged “hatred” of the U.K.

    That one.
    The burka does indeed prevent Muslim women displaying their face, Papua New Guinea has had cannibalism incidents even as late as 2012.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/papuanewguinea/9398339/Papua-New-Guinea-charges-29-alleged-cannibals.html

    Obama did indeed remove the bust of Churchill from the Oval Office which Trump restored.

    I also notice you completely ignored the fact the Tories now have more ethnic minorities in the top 3 posts of the Great Offices of State than their Labour and LD shadows because Tories take action to promote minorities on merit unlike the patronising left who prefer a victim mentality
    Is that all you’ve got? Obama removed the bust because he wanted something else there - it had been put there by GWB and he is entitled to put wants there. How does that show he hates the U.K? His work with Prince Harry on the Invictus Games shows more compassion to our veterans than your benighted austerity peddlers have shown. Such actions are more concrete and meaningful than a model of a dead leader in the corner of your office. It was, as you right wingers call it, fake news.

    There were incidents of cannibalism in Spain as recently this year. Don’t see him mentioning that. What’s your point here exactly?

    I notice you don’t address the other blatantly racist things your blatantly racist leader has said. Do educate me on how Africa would be better off under colonialism? I’m all ears.
  • Every time you see videos of tanked-up, hate-filled, violence-embracing Tommy Robinson supporters, remember to thank our lucky stars that we do not have US gun laws in this country.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Is that really from the Sheriff?

    Seems very prejudicial to a prosecution (ascribing motive, etc)
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Charles said:

    Is that really from the Sheriff?
    Seems very prejudicial to a prosecution (ascribing motive, etc)
    America is not really in the front rank of those who have a decent justice system.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Good effort from Burns and Roy to make it through the seven overs to stumps.

    If it doesn’t rain, all three results could still be possible.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
    You had most of those votes already. You’ve lost nearly all of the social liberals Cameron brought on board. Gay professionals who would have voted for Cameron, indeed gay people in general, tend to have a problem with being described as “tank-topped bum boys” as the PM so memorably described them.
    Have we really, I was canvassing yesterday with 3 open out gay men amongst us so utter rubbish. Boris himself backed gay marriage.

    Indeed many homosexuals receive more homophobia from Corbyn Labour than the Tories, for example in East London LGBT Labour Party members have been driven out of the party by homophobic bullying


    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/06/28/lgbt-labour-homophobia-west-ham/
    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.
  • DougSeal said:



    Is that all you’ve got? Obama removed the bust because he wanted something else there - it had been put there by GWB and he is entitled to put wants there. How does that show he hates the U.K? His work with Prince Harry on the Invictus Games shows more compassion to our veterans than your benighted austerity peddlers have shown. Such actions are more concrete and meaningful than a model of a dead leader in the corner of your office. It was, as you right wingers call it, fake news.

    There were incidents of cannibalism in Spain as recently this year. Don’t see him mentioning that. What’s your point here exactly?

    I notice you don’t address the other blatantly racist things your blatantly racist leader has said. Do educate me on how Africa would be better off under colonialism? I’m all ears.

    It wasn't even that he wanted something else there. Though of course it would have been perfectly normal if he had done. The bust put in by GWB was on loan to him for his duration in the White House. When he left after his two terms the bust was returned to its creator as had always been the plan. Obama had no say in this.

    The whole myth also paints Obama as someone with no political acumen at all, which was certainly a very long way from the truth.


  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
    You had most of those votes already. You’ve lost nearly all of the social liberals Cameron brought on board. Gay professionals who would have voted for Cameron, indeed gay people in general, tend to have a problem with being described as “tank-topped bum boys” as the PM so memorably described them.
    Have we really, I was canvassing yesterday with 3 open out gay men amongst us so utter rubbish. Boris himself backed gay marriage.
    Indeed many homosexuals receive more homophobia from Corbyn Labour than the Tories, for example in East London LGBT Labour Party members have been driven out of the party by homophobic bullying
    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/06/28/lgbt-labour-homophobia-west-ham/
    Your problem, my friend HY, is that you want to be all things to all men. You can`t go round with gay men, and at the same time, defend homophobic remarks from your two-faced leader. Sooner or later, somebody will smell a rat.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    Charles said:

    Is that really from the Sheriff?

    Seems very prejudicial to a prosecution (ascribing motive, etc)

    They’re far more lax about these things in the States. There’s no equivalent to our Contempt of Court Act for example.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    Sandpit said:

    Good effort from Burns and Roy to make it through the seven overs to stumps.

    If it doesn’t rain, all three results could still be possible.

    Our chances of winning are identical to our chances of getting Stephen Peter Devereux Smith out for less than 140.

    That is, exactly fuck all.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump il stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    It’s the same Boris Johnson
    That one.
    The burka does indeed prevent Muslim women displaying their face, Papua New Guinea has had cannibalism incidents even as late as 2012.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/papuanewguinea/9398339/Papua-New-Guinea-charges-29-alleged-cannibals.html

    Obama did indeed remove the bust of Churchill from the Oval Office which Trump restored.

    I also notice you completely ignored the fact the Tories now have more ethnic minorities in the top 3 posts of the Great Offices of State than their Labour and LD shadows because Tories take action to promote minorities on merit unlike the patronising left who prefer a victim mentality
    Is that all you’ve got? Obama removed the bust because he wanted something else there - it had been put there by GWB and he is entitled to put wants there. How does that show he hates the U.K? His work with Prince Harry on the Invictus Games shows more compassion to our veterans than your benighted austerity peddlers have shown. Such actions are more concrete and meaningful than a model of a dead leader in the corner of your office. It was, as you right wingers call it, fake news.

    There were incidents of cannibalism in Spain as recently this year. Don’t see him mentioning that. What’s your point here exactly?

    I notice you don’t address the other blatantly racist things your blatantly racist leader has said. Do educate me on how Africa would be better off under colonialism? I’m all ears.
    Obama has said his favourite foreign leader was Angela Merkel and the fact remains he removed the bust of Churchill, our greatest British PM, which George W Bush put in place and Trump restored. George W Bush and Melania Trump worked with Prince Harry on the Invictus Games as much as Obama did.

    The Biyani tribe has a long history of eating tribal members in Papua New Guinea suspected of sorcery, Boris was pointing out a fact, whether Spain has had criminal acts of a similar nature does not change that.

    When has Boris ever said Africa would be better off under a new colonialism, even despite the problems of Mugabe et al?
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,151

    ydoethur said:

    In fairness @leslie48 the Tories should be equally ashamed of themselves for electing their own form of Corbyn as leader.

    That’s unfair to Corbyn (four words I have never before uttered in that order). Corbyn does at least have principles and a burning, if misguided, desire to make the world a better place. ABDPJohnson just wants to be world king.

    If Corbyn’s principles extended to defeating the Tories he’d stand down as Labour leader.

    But in favour of whom? Labour's moderates really screwed the pooch (whatever that means) when they refused to serve in the shadow cabinet. That's why we can't discuss Stella Creasey, to take just one example, as the next leader.
    Many of them said would following the 2017 GE, it's just that Corbyn refuses to consider them and instead keeps incompetents like Burgon and RLB in place. Probably in part because he doesn't want someone like Creasy or Nandy to succeed him.
    Having said that, I think Starmer or Thornberry would have a decent shout at winning the membership (as backed up that recent YouGov poll)… but the fact they would is part of the reason why (as Southam has pointed out before) Corbyn is not considering resigning anytime soon.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good effort from Burns and Roy to make it through the seven overs to stumps.
    If it doesn’t rain, all three results could still be possible.

    Our chances of winning are identical to our chances of getting Stephen Peter Devereux Smith out for less than 140.
    That is, exactly fuck all.
    When you say "our", do you mean Labour? Or am I on the wonng site?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    Tokenism
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2019
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
    You had most of those ed bum boys” as the PM so memorably described them.
    Have we really, I wasknews.co.uk/2019/06/28/lgbt-labour-homophobia-west-ham/
    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.
    The issue with gay marriage was always the difference between religious law and secular law, hence civil unions. However the current law enables it in registry offices while respecting churches and mosques and temples freedom not to have to enact it if they do not wish to do so.

    The LGBT+ community leans left anyway, the Tories have never won it even when they won a majority as in 2015 but those who are LGBT Tories tend to be loyal supporters of the party and given homophobia within Corbyn Labour there is no great enthusiasm within the LGBT community for Labour at the moment either, at most they will tend to go LD or Green
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
    You had most of those votes already. You’ve lost nearly all of the social liberals Cameron brought on board. Gay professionals who would have voted for Cameron, indeed gay people in general, tend to have a problem with being described as “tank-topped bum boys” as the PM so memorably described them.
    Have we really, I was canvassing yesterday with 3 open out gay men amongst us so utter rubbish. Boris himself backed gay marriage.
    Indeed many homosexuals receive more homophobia from Corbyn Labour than the Tories, for example in East London LGBT Labour Party members have been driven out of the party by homophobic bullying
    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/06/28/lgbt-labour-homophobia-west-ham/
    Your problem, my friend HY, is that you want to be all things to all men. You can`t go round with gay men, and at the same time, defend homophobic remarks from your two-faced leader. Sooner or later, somebody will smell a rat.
    Boris is not homophobic and even Trump tweeted his support for LGBT Pride month

    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/06/01/donald-trump-celebrates-lgbt-pride-month/
  • DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Byronic said:

    Following on from the last thread, in terms of a temporary caretaker PM, I actually think it wouldn't be impossible if Caroline Lucas was appointed.
    Think about it. While Byronic and rcs1000 might be right about pro-EU Tories never supporting Corbyn in any circumstances, they might temporarily support a lefty who didn't have quite the same baggage as him, in order to get an extension from Brussels. And if Corbyn was to support a PM other than himself, it would have to be someone on the left who wasn't in the Labour Party, and who had no chance of winning the subsequent GE. She certainly has value anyway at 100/1.

    Why not Swinson?! Her party are 3rd in the polls nationwide (sometimes 2nd). They just won Brecon. They are a big, established, nationwide party. She's not a rabid lefty like Lucas yet she would be acceptable to many Labour MPs (and to the Greens, Plaid, maybe the SNP).

    If Labour can't come up with a decent GNU leader, or Corbyn is unprepared to do wild, unprecedented compromises, then Swinson is the obvious next choice.

    Not a hope of the SNP dealing with the duplitious Lib Dems, given they have huge number of seats more than them and Swinson has stated she will not allow an Indyref , there is absolutely no chance unless Swinson eats humble pie. even bother
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who ysically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
    You had most of those ed bum boys” as the PM so memorably described them.
    Have we really, I wasknews.co.uk/2019/06/28/lgbt-labour-homophobia-west-ham/
    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.
    The issue with gay marriage was always the difference between religious law and secular law, hence civil unions. However the current law enables it in registry offices while respecting churches and mosques and temples freedom not to have to enact it if they do not wish to do so.

    The LGBT+ community leans left anyway, the Tories have never won it even when they won a majority as in 2015 but those who are LGBT Tories tend to be loyal supporters of the party and given homophobia within Corbyn Labour there is no great enthusiasm within the LGBT community for Labour at the moment either, at most they will tend to go LD or Green
    Great stuff, Hy! So we can add LGBT people to remainers as those who you are telling to p**s off and join the LibDems?

    You are steadily building us a majority all by yourself.

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    edited August 2019
    @HYUFD -

    The bust was the biggest non-issue in recent history. As @Richard_Tyndall said, it was due to be returned. Trump got it back. So what if his favourite foreign leader was Merkel? Are you so insecure that just because someone is not your best friend they must “hate” you. That’s pathetic. Does POTUS have to have the bust of every one of his allies’ favourite leaders in the Oval Office? Are the French, who are the USA’s oldest ally, pissed off there is no DeGaulle in there? I’m sure Trump has done something for the Invictus Games but that doesn’t mean that BoJo had a scintilla of evidence for saying Obama “hated” the UK.

    Cannibalism is also illegal in PNG. Boris was implying that it is a national characteristic.

    ‘‘The best fate for Africa would be if the old colonial powers, or their citizens, scrambled once again in her direction; on the understanding that this time they will not be asked to feel guilty.’‘ B. Johnson, The Sun, February 2002.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
    You are having a laugh surely, we have enough idiots there already
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    edited August 2019
    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    As the above poll shows removing Corbyn as Labour leader barely changes the Tory and Brexit Party vote, Tories down 2% and Brexit Party unchanged.

    The main change is the LDs down 5% with those voters going Labour. So the longer Corbyn and Corbynism stays the greater the threat the LDs pose to Labour, with Corbyn as Labour leader the LDs are 3rd and just 7% behind Labour, without Corbyn as Labour leader the LDs are 4th and 21% behind Labour

    Sounds like HY talking up the Labour Party.

    This must be because his Tory HQ friends see the Lib Dems as the greatest threat to Tory hegemony.

    Tories would always rather have Labour as their opponent, as Labour is an easy bogeyman (bogeyperson?) that can be used to frighten voters into clinging onto the Conservative. And should Labour happen to win now and again, they don’t threaten the cosy two-party cartel of the current political system, so the Tories will know they’ll have their own bums back on those ministerial limousine seats before too long.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who ysically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
    You had most of those ed bum boys” as the PM so memorably described them.
    Have we really, I wasknews.co.uk/2019/06/28/lgbt-labour-homophobia-west-ham/
    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.
    The issue with gay marriage was always the difference between religious law and secular law, hence civil unions. However the current law enables it in registry offices while respecting churches and mosques and temples freedom not to have to enact it if they do not wish to do so.

    The LGBT+ community leans left anyway, the Tories have never won it even when they won a majority as in 2015 but those who are LGBT Tories tend to be loyal supporters of the party and given homophobia within Corbyn Labour there is no great enthusiasm within the LGBT community for Labour at the moment either, at most they will tend to go LD or Green
    Great stuff, Hy! So we can add LGBT people to remainers as those who you are telling to p**s off and join the LibDems?

    You are steadily building us a majority all by yourself.

    The irony is that both main parties are rebuilding the LDs all by themselves. My motivation for joining was being told, after mounting a defence of Tony Blair’s domestic record, to “fuck off and join the Liberal Democrats.” So I did.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
    You are having a laugh surely, we have enough idiots there already
    Malcolm, you have to learn to distinguish between those whose views you find incredible or objectionable, and idiots.
    Tatchell has many faults, but he is not an idiot, and far more qualified to be appointed to the Lords than most who get there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who ysically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
    You had most of those ed bum boys” as the PM so memorably described them.
    Have we really, I wasknews.co.uk/2019/06/28/lgbt-labour-homophobia-west-ham/
    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.
    The issue with gay marriage was always the difference between religious law and secular law, hence civil unions. However the current law enables it in registry offices while respecting churches and mosques and temples freedom not to have to enact it if they do not wish to do so.

    The LGBT+ community leans left anyway, the Tories have never won it even when they won a majority as in 2015 but those who are LGBT Tories tend to be loyal supporters of the party and given homophobia within Corbyn Labour there is no great enthusiasm within the LGBT community for Labour at the moment either, at most they will tend to go LD or Green
    Great stuff, Hy! So we can add LGBT people to remainers as those who you are telling to p**s off and join the LibDems?

    You are steadily building us a majority all by yourself.

    No, if LGBT people backed the Withdrawal Agreement or back No Deal they are perfectly welcome in the Tories as much as heterosexuals who respect the Brexit vote
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    edited August 2019
    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
    You are having a laugh surely, we have enough idiots there already
    Not at all. Tatchell has always tried his damndest to be fair and reasonable even when clearly hugely exercised by the way the community he represents has been treated. I don't consider his commitment to direct action or his bravery to be at all idiotic. He is simply dedicated to making the world a better place and even though I am not gay I think he is a huge asset to political and social life in Britain.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DougSeal said:

    @HYUFD -

    The bust was the biggest non-issue in recent history. As @Richard_Tyndall said, it was due to be returned. Trump got it back. So what if his favourite foreign leader was Merkel? Are you so insecure that just because someone is not your best friend they must “hate” you. That’s pathetic. Does POTUS have to have the bust of every one of his allies’ favourite leaders in the Oval Office? Are the French, who are the USA’s oldest ally, pissed off there is no DeGaulle in there? I’m sure Trump has done something for the Invictus Games but that doesn’t mean that BoJo had a scintilla of evidence for saying Obama “hated” the UK.

    Cannibalism is also illegal in PNG. Boris was implying that it is a national characteristic.

    ‘‘The best fate for Africa would be if the old colonial powers, or their citizens, scrambled once again in her direction; on the understanding that this time they will not be asked to feel guilty.’‘ B. Johnson, The Sun, February 2002.

    The issue was Obama deliberately removed a bust of Churchill that was already there and which Trump restored.

    According to David Lammy even Comic Relief is colonialism
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who ysically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
    You had most of those ed bum boys” as the PM so memorably described them.
    Have we really, I wasknews.co.uk/2019/06/28/lgbt-labour-homophobia-west-ham/
    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.
    The issue with gay marriage was always the difference between religious law and secular law, hence civil unions.

    The LGBT+ community leans left anyway, the Tories have never won it even when they won a majority as in 2015 but those who are LGBT Tories tend to be loyal supporters of the party and given homophobia within Corbyn Labour there is no great enthusiasm within the LGBT community for Labour at the moment either, at most they will tend to go LD or Green
    Great stuff, Hy! So we can add LGBT people to remainers as those who you are telling to p**s off and join the LibDems?

    You are steadily building us a majority all by yourself.

    No, if LGBT people backed the Withdrawal Agreement or back No Deal they are perfectly welcome in the Tories as much as heterosexuals who respect the Brexit vote
    Unhuh.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/conservative-members-oppose-gay-marriage-and-want-the-death-penalty-2018-1?r=US&IR=T

    What you mean is that their votes are welcome. That’s it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who want to kill them. Boris Johnson, of course, is a huge admirer. As HYUFD has noted a number of times, post-Brexit the Tories will be delivering us into an alliance of totally unstable, far-right populists who happily demonise domestic minorities and stand by as they are physically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
    You had most of those votes already. You’ve lost nearly all of the social liberals Cameron brought on board. Gay professionals who would have voted for Cameron, indeed gay people in general, tend to have a problem with being described as “tank-topped bum boys” as the PM so memorably described them.
    Have we really, I was canvassing yesterday with 3 open out gay men amongst us so utter rubbish. Boris himself backed gay marriage.
    Indeed many homosexuals receive more homophobia from Corbyn Labour than the Tories, for example in East London LGBT Labour Party members have been driven out of the party by homophobic bullying
    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/06/28/lgbt-labour-homophobia-west-ham/
    Your problem, my friend HY, is that you want to be all things to all men. You can`t go round with gay men, and at the same time, defend homophobic remarks from your two-faced leader. Sooner or later, somebody will smell a rat.
    Boris is not homophobic and even Trump tweeted his support for LGBT Pride month

    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/06/01/donald-trump-celebrates-lgbt-pride-month/
    Him tweeting really seals the deal
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    HYUFD said:

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
    Which is why it would be of concern to Plaid Cymru, as stated.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749

    DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
    Hasn't he said some pretty 'controversial' things about underage sex (mentioned on here I think)? Though he's been courageous in much of his campaigning, I think that might make it a no no.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    Donald Trump is a racist who cannot keep Americans safe because he empowers those who ysically attacked, and even murdered. Wonderful stuff.

    Oh really? This would be the same Boris Johnson who has appointed the first British Asian Chancellor and Home Secretary and the first black British Tory Party Chairman?
    And he is an American Turk.... I asked you before, HY, what do your traditional Conservative voters think of that? Your Home Secretary, for one, has very non-British views about policing.
    The Home Secretary has voted to make criminals 'feel terror' and will be the toughest Home Secretary since Michael Howard which goes down extremely well with traditional Conservative voters and working class voters if not hand wringing left liberals like you!
    You had most of those ed bum boys” as the PM so memorably described them.
    Have we really, I wasknews.co.uk/2019/06/28/lgbt-labour-homophobia-west-ham/
    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.
    The issue with gay marriage was always the difference between religious law and secular law, hence civil unions. However the current law enables it in registry offices while respecting churches and mosques and temples freedom not to have to enact it if they do not wish to do so.

    The LGBT+ community leans left anyway, the Tories have never won it even when they won a majority as in 2015 but those who are LGBT Tories tend to be loyal supporters of the party and given homophobia within Corbyn Labour there is no great enthusiasm within the LGBT community for Labour at the moment either, at most they will tend to go LD or Green
    Great stuff, Hy! So we can add LGBT people to remainers as those who you are telling to p**s off and join the LibDems?

    You are steadily building us a majority all by yourself.

    No, if LGBT people backed the Withdrawal Agreement or back No Deal they are perfectly welcome in the Tories as much as heterosexuals who respect the Brexit vote
    Remainers and dogs not welcome inside.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
    You are having a laugh surely, we have enough idiots there already
    Not at all. Tatchell has always tried his damndest to be fair and reasonable even when clearly hugely exercised by the way the community he represents has been treated. I don't consider his commitment to direct action or his bravery to be at all idiotic. He is simply dedicated to making the world a better place and even though I am not gay I think he is a huge asset to political and social life in Britain.
    That is fine, I happen to disagree and think no-one should be enobled, it is a joke in modern times that every Tom Dick and Harry gets these pathetic baubles for doing hee haw. It is just more troughing opportunities for their chums or the nonenties when they finish milking it as politicians.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
    You are having a laugh surely, we have enough idiots there already
    Not at all. Tatchell has always tried his damndest to be fair and reasonable even when clearly hugely exercised by the way the community he represents has been treated. I don't consider his commitment to direct action or his bravery to be at all idiotic. He is simply dedicated to making the world a better place and even though I am not gay I think he is a huge asset to political and social life in Britain.
    That is fine, I happen to disagree and think no-one should be enobled, it is a joke in modern times that every Tom Dick and Harry gets these pathetic baubles for doing hee haw. It is just more troughing opportunities for their chums or the nonenties when they finish milking it as politicians.
    Until we have a reformed second chamber, it’s a necessary evil.
    An unchallenged Commons would be worse,
  • HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    @HYUFD -

    The bust was the biggest non-issue in recent history. As @Richard_Tyndall said, it was due to be returned. Trump got it back. So what if his favourite foreign leader was Merkel? Are you so insecure that just because someone is not your best friend they must “hate” you. That’s pathetic. Does POTUS have to have the bust of every one of his allies’ favourite leaders in the Oval Office? Are the French, who are the USA’s oldest ally, pissed off there is no DeGaulle in there? I’m sure Trump has done something for the Invictus Games but that doesn’t mean that BoJo had a scintilla of evidence for saying Obama “hated” the UK.

    Cannibalism is also illegal in PNG. Boris was implying that it is a national characteristic.

    ‘‘The best fate for Africa would be if the old colonial powers, or their citizens, scrambled once again in her direction; on the understanding that this time they will not be asked to feel guilty.’‘ B. Johnson, The Sun, February 2002.

    The issue was Obama deliberately removed a bust of Churchill that was already there and which Trump restored.

    According to David Lammy even Comic Relief is colonialism
    No he didn't. That is again a myth. Trump hasn't even restored the bust that was removed at the end of GWBs tenure. The bust there now is entirely different and had been in the White House since the 1960s.

    I am not sure why you repeat these myths when it takes only a few seconds research to find out they are false. It does your cause no credit at all which, of course, bothers me greatly as a fellow Leaver.
  • DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
    Hasn't he said some pretty 'controversial' things about underage sex (mentioned on here I think)? Though he's been courageous in much of his campaigning, I think that might make it a no no.
    Not sure. This might be one of those areas where I have not researched enough but as it stands I stick to my view he would be a great asset to an amending and guiding chamber.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
    You are having a laugh surely, we have enough idiots there already
    Not at all. Tatchell has always tried his damndest to be fair and reasonable even when clearly hugely exercised by the way the community he represents has been treated. I don't consider his commitment to direct action or his bravery to be at all idiotic. He is simply dedicated to making the world a better place and even though I am not gay I think he is a huge asset to political and social life in Britain.
    That is fine, I happen to disagree and think no-one should be enobled, it is a joke in modern times that every Tom Dick and Harry gets these pathetic baubles for doing hee haw. It is just more troughing opportunities for their chums or the nonenties when they finish milking it as politicians.
    I was viewing it more in terms of him being the sort of mind we want in a revising chamber. I wasn't really thinking about the form that chamber should take.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
    Hasn't he said some pretty 'controversial' things about underage sex (mentioned on here I think)? Though he's been courageous in much of his campaigning, I think that might make it a no no.
    Not sure. This might be one of those areas where I have not researched enough but as it stands I stick to my view he would be a great asset to an amending and guiding chamber.
    There was certainly a lot of controversy around his opinions that there should be no minimum age for sex or something similar.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
    You are having a laugh surely, we have enough idiots there already
    Not at all. Tatchell has always tried his damndest to be fair and reasonable even when clearly hugely exercised by the way the community he represents has been treated. I don't consider his commitment to direct action or his bravery to be at all idiotic. He is simply dedicated to making the world a better place and even though I am not gay I think he is a huge asset to political and social life in Britain.
    That is fine, I happen to disagree and think no-one should be enobled, it is a joke in modern times that every Tom Dick and Harry gets these pathetic baubles for doing hee haw. It is just more troughing opportunities for their chums or the nonenties when they finish milking it as politicians.
    Haha "...no-one should be ennobled..." says the man with a failed aristo as his avatar.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
    You are having a laugh surely, we have enough idiots there already
    Not at all. Tatchell has always tried his damndest to be fair and reasonable even when clearly hugely exercised by the way the community he represents has been treated. I don't consider his commitment to direct action or his bravery to be at all idiotic. He is simply dedicated to making the world a better place and even though I am not gay I think he is a huge asset to political and social life in Britain.
    That is fine, I happen to disagree and think no-one should be enobled, it is a joke in modern times that every Tom Dick and Harry gets these pathetic baubles for doing hee haw. It is just more troughing opportunities for their chums or the nonenties when they finish milking it as politicians.
    Until we have a reformed second chamber, it’s a necessary evil.
    An unchallenged Commons would be worse,
    Two cheeks of the same arse Nigel. A clear out of the stables is required.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2019

    HYUFD said:

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
    Which is why it would be of concern to Plaid Cymru, as stated.
    Yet not to the Tories as there are almost no Plaid v Tory marginal seats, of the top 8 Plaid targets in Wales only 1, Montgomeryshire is held by the Tories, the rest are held by Labour and the Tories have never won any of the existing Westminster seats held by Plaid.


    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/plaid-cymru
  • Drutt said:

    Byronic said:

    To be fair, England look totally knackered, as well they might - having just come from winning the World Cup, for the very first time, in the greatest game of sport in the history of sport.

    They must be physically AND emotionally drained. And motivation must be lacking. The Ashes, however historic, cannot match that World Cup win.

    The Ashes matches and likely surpasses anything else in cricket.
    And that is just in umpiring mistakes.
    And selection errors.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    @HYUFD -

    The bust was the biggest non-issue in recent history. As @Richard_Tyndall said, it was due to be returned. Trump got it back. So what if his favourite foreign leader was Merkel? Are you so insecure that just because someone is not your best friend they must “hate” you. That’s pathetic. Does POTUS have to have the bust of every one of his allies’ favourite leaders in the Oval Office? Are the French, who are the USA’s oldest ally, pissed off there is no DeGaulle in there? I’m sure Trump has done something for the Invictus Games but that doesn’t mean that BoJo had a scintilla of evidence for saying Obama “hated” the UK.

    Cannibalism is also illegal in PNG. Boris was implying that it is a national characteristic.

    ‘‘The best fate for Africa would be if the old colonial powers, or their citizens, scrambled once again in her direction; on the understanding that this time they will not be asked to feel guilty.’‘ B. Johnson, The Sun, February 2002.

    The issue was Obama deliberately removed a bust of Churchill that was already there and which Trump restored.

    According to David Lammy even Comic Relief is colonialism
    Bullshit He didn’t “remove” the bust. The Epstein bust was returned to its owner at the end of GWB’s second term as per the agreement. Trump moved a different bust, placed outside the Oval Office even during Obama’s tenure, into the Oval Office. Even if he did remove it it shouldn’t matter. It’s a piece of art. It’s not as if he suggested that our future Queen should pose topless, which is far more offensive, and something Trump did, or stalk the Princess of Wales, something Trump also did.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/busted-churchill-obama-trump-and-dr-king_b_587bba7ee4b077a19d180eb3

    https://grazia.com.au/articles/kate-middleton-donald-trump-tweet/

    Who gives a toss what David Lammy thinks? Your leader, and our PM (thank God briefly) said in 2002 of Africa in The Spectator “The problem is not that we were once in charge, but that we are not in charge anymore”. That is a call for us to actually go in and run the place. There’s no quibble, surely, about that being a call for a return to boots on the ground old fashioned imperialism.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
    That doesn’t mean that more than 19% are not going to get rather pissed off at their ancestral language being so described.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    edited August 2019
    PClipp said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good effort from Burns and Roy to make it through the seven overs to stumps.
    If it doesn’t rain, all three results could still be possible.

    Our chances of winning are identical to our chances of getting Stephen Peter Devereux Smith out for less than 140.
    That is, exactly fuck all.
    When you say "our", do you mean Labour? Or am I on the wonng site?
    I meant the England cricket team.

    Labour's chances are even less. That is, they are comparable to the chances of Mr Eagles ordering a king sized pizza with extra pineapple and eating it all of his own volition.

    I'm intrigued though that you think 'our' coming from me would refer to Labour. For the purpose of thrashing some cheating convicts the Australians I will consider the England cricket team honorary Welshman. But while I have voted Labour in the past, they are hardly 'my' side at the moment.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’ll leave it to your glorious leader to tell you exactly what he thought of gay marriage in 2001 -

    “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” - B. Johnson. ‘’Friends, Voters, Countrymen', 2001.

    I’m not sure how convinced the LGBTQ+ community are by his apparent conversion. Not very is the feedback I’m getting.

    To be fair, Peter Tatchell has tried to view the arrival of Boris in Number 10 in a balanced way. His article in the Independent a couple of weeks ago was pretty fair but also set out some indicators that the LGBT community could use to see if Boris was going to be supportive of the LGBT community. I think some of these at least are very reasonable. It would be good if Boris did take action on them.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-lgbt-rights-voting-record-equality-prime-minister-tory-a9016916.html

    As an aside, when is someone going to have the sense to ennoble Tatchell. As a voice for reason representing a significant part of British society he would be a huge asset to the second chamber.
    You are having a laugh surely, we have enough idiots there already
    Not at all. Tatchell has always tried his damndest to be fair and reasonable even when clearly hugely exercised by the way the community he represents has been treated. I don't consider his commitment to direct action or his bravery to be at all idiotic. He is simply dedicated to making the world a better place and even though I am not gay I think he is a huge asset to political and social life in Britain.
    Truly courageous man who has contributed very effectively for over 30 years to his cause. I was particularly impressed by his magnanimous response a few years ago to Simon Hughes' outing. Gay men and women owe him an enormous debt of gratitude.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    @HYUFD -

    The bust was the biggest non-issue in recent history. As @Richard_Tyndall said, it was due to be returned. Trump got it back. So what if his favourite foreign leader was Merkel? Are you so insecure that just because someone is not your best friend they must “hate” you. That’s pathetic. Does POTUS have to have the bust of every one of his allies’ favourite leaders in the Oval Office? Are the French, who are the USA’s oldest ally, pissed off there is no DeGaulle in there? I’m sure Trump has done something for the Invictus Games but that doesn’t mean that BoJo had a scintilla of evidence for saying Obama “hated” the UK.

    Cannibalism is also illegal in PNG. Boris was implying that it is a national characteristic.

    ‘‘The best fate for Africa would be if the old colonial powers, or their citizens, scrambled once again in her direction; on the understanding that this time they will not be asked to feel guilty.’‘ B. Johnson, The Sun, February 2002.

    The issue was Obama deliberately removed a bust of Churchill that was already there and which Trump restored.

    According to David Lammy even Comic Relief is colonialism
    No he didn't. That is again a myth. Trump hasn't even restored the bust that was removed at the end of GWBs tenure. The bust there now is entirely different and had been in the White House since the 1960s.

    I am not sure why you repeat these myths when it takes only a few seconds research to find out they are false. It does your cause no credit at all which, of course, bothers me greatly as a fellow Leaver.
    Trump has restored a bust of Churchill to the Oval Office, Obama removed one, it is the symbol it represents that matters not who created it.

    I also as you know was a reluctant Remainer not a Leaver but respect the Brexit vote, Deal or No Deal
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Grim news from the US concerning gun crime, but there's some interesting stuff on Wiki concerning homicides and race:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide


    Blacks account for the majority of gun homicide victims/arrestees in the US while whites account for the vast majority of non-gun homicide victims/arrestees, of the gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 57% were black, 40.6% white (including Hispanic), 1.35% Asian, 0.98% unknown race and 0.48% Native American.

    Non-gun homicides, represented about 30% of total murders in the time period. Blacks were still overrepresented although only by about 2.5x their share of the general population. Of the non-gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 61.5% were white (including Hispanic), 32.9% black, 2.29% Asian, 1.89% unknown race and 1.43% Native American.


    If true, those are quite striking statistics given the perpetrators of the killing sprees reported by the UK media are almost always white. I guess this means that the scale of gun crime within the black community is pretty big as it outweighs all the killing sprees perpetrated by whites.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
    That doesn’t mean that more than 19% are not going to get rather pissed off at their ancestral language being so described.
    I doubt the majority could care less Boris described it as a weird variation of Creole, which may well be true anyway, as most do not speak it
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
    Actually the latest figure is 29%.

    I think you will also find that sweeping generalisations are unhelpful. For example, large parts of Montgomeryshire and a significant chunk of north-western Shropshire are Welsh-speaking, as are the western Valleys and Carmarthenshire. Ystradgynlais is a town with a significant Welsh language population. Equally, speak it in large parts of Aberystwyth and you will get blank looks. You will hear it spoken in Llwyngwril, but not in Fairbourne five miles to the north.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    @HYUFD -

    The bust was the biggest non-issue in recent history. As @Richard_Tyndall said, it was due to be returned. Trump got it back. So what if his favourite foreign leader was Merkel? Are you so insecure that just because someone is not your best friend they must “hate” you. That’s pathetic. Does POTUS have to have the bust of every one of his allies’ favourite leaders in the Oval Office? Are the French, who are the USA’s oldest ally, pissed off there is no DeGaulle in there? I’m sure Trump has done something for the Invictus Games but that doesn’t mean that BoJo had a scintilla of evidence for saying Obama “hated” the UK.
    Cannibalism is also illegal in PNG. Boris was implying that it is a national characteristic.
    ‘‘The best fate for Africa would be if the old colonial powers, or their citizens, scrambled once again in her direction; on the understanding that this time they will not be asked to feel guilty.’‘ B. Johnson, The Sun, February 2002.

    The issue was Obama deliberately removed a bust of Churchill that was already there and which Trump restored.
    According to David Lammy even Comic Relief is colonialism
    No he didn't. That is again a myth. Trump hasn't even restored the bust that was removed at the end of GWBs tenure. The bust there now is entirely different and had been in the White House since the 1960s.

    I am not sure why you repeat these myths when it takes only a few seconds research to find out they are false. It does your cause no credit at all which, of course, bothers me greatly as a fellow Leaver.
    Trump has restored a bust of Churchill to the Oval Office, Obama removed one, it is the symbol it represents that matters not who created it.
    I also as you know was a reluctant Remainer not a Leaver but respect the Brexit vote, Deal or No Deal
    It seems to me that you respect corruption and cheating - as long as it is your lot that "wins".
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    @HYUFD -

    The bust was the biggest non-issue in recent history. As @Richard_Tyndall said, it was due to be returned. Trump got it back. So what if his favourite foreign leader was Merkel? Are you so insecure that just because someone is not your best friend they must “hate” you. That’s pathetic. Does POTUS have to have the bust of every one of his allies’ favourite leaders in the Oval Office? Are the French, who are the USA’s oldest ally, pissed off there is no DeGaulle in there? I’m sure Trump has done something for the Invictus Games but that doesn’t mean that BoJo had a scintilla of evidence for saying Obama “hated” the UK.

    Cannibalism is also illegal in PNG. Boris was implying that it is a national characteristic.

    ‘‘The best fate for Africa would be if the old colonial powers, or their citizens, scrambled once again in her direction; on the understanding that this time they will not be asked to feel guilty.’‘ B. Johnson, The Sun, February 2002.

    The issue was Obama deliberately removed a bust of Churchill that was already there and which Trump restored.

    According to David Lammy even Comic Relief is colonialism
    No he didn't. That is again a myth. Trump hasn't even restored the bust that was removed at the end of GWBs tenure. The bust there now is entirely different and had been in the White House since the 1960s.

    I am not sure why you repeat these myths when it takes only a few seconds research to find out they are false. It does your cause no credit at all which, of course, bothers me greatly as a fellow Leaver.
    Trump has restored a bust of Churchill to the Oval Office, Obama removed one, it is the symbol it represents that matters not who created it.

    I also as you know was a reluctant Remainer not a Leaver but respect the Brexit vote, Deal or No Deal
    God knows @Richard_Tyndall and I have had some bust ups but, again, this is rubbish. The Epstein bust was loaned for the period of GWB’s tenure and, as per that agreement, it was returned at the end of said tenure. If our national pride rests on office decoration then we are in more trouble than I thought.

    You voted Remain but have constantly described yourself as a Leaver. People’s views are not cast in aspic. They change. Richard correctly says you are a Leaver. If you are a Remainer it’s news to us. You may have BEEN a Remainer but clearly your standpoint has moved. Where Richard and I differ, occasionally vociferously, is whether such movement should be gauged in a further referendum. However you cannot seriously suggest that as of today’s date you are not a Leaver.
  • ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
    Actually the latest figure is 29%.

    I think you will also find that sweeping generalisations are unhelpful. For example, large parts of Montgomeryshire and a significant chunk of north-western Shropshire are Welsh-speaking, as are the western Valleys and Carmarthenshire. Ystradgynlais is a town with a significant Welsh language population. Equally, speak it in large parts of Aberystwyth and you will get blank looks. You will hear it spoken in Llwyngwril, but not in Fairbourne five miles to the north.
    Is it not also the case that speakers of different Welsh dialects would likely be unintelligable to each other?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
    That doesn’t mean that more than 19% are not going to get rather pissed off at their ancestral language being so described.
    I doubt the majority could care less Boris described it as a weird variation of Creole, which may well be true anyway, as most do not speak it
    Surely English is more of creole than Welsh, given that a creole is

    "...a stable natural language that develops from the simplifying and mixing of different languages at a fairly sudden point in time"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2019
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    @HYUFD -

    The bust was the biggest noty.’‘ B. Johnson, The Sun, February 2002.

    The issue was Obama deliberately removed a bust of Churchill that was already there and which Trump restored.

    According to David Lammy even Comic Relief is colonialism
    Bullshit He didn’trump-and-dr-king_b_587bba7ee4b077a19d180eb3

    https://grazia.com.au/articles/kate-middleton-donald-trump-tweet/

    Who gives a toss what David Lammy thinks? Your leader, and our PM (thank God briefly) said in 2002 of Africa in The Spectator “The problem is not that we were once in charge, but that we are not in charge anymore”. That is a call for us to actually go in and run the place. There’s no quibble, surely, about that being a call for a return to boots on the ground old fashioned imperialism.

    Obama removed the Churchill bust given by the British Embassy from the Oval Office as even the article you linked to makes clear when there was no requirement to do so.



    Your Boris quote is a typical left liberal distortion of the truth, selective quotation and dirty trick. Boris actually said 'Heaven knows what the Foreign Office has cooked up for Blair, or quite how this British prime minister will choose to break the winds of change. But we must hope, for the sake of candour and common sense, that he does not blame Britain, or colonialism, or the white man. The continent may be a blot, but it is not a blot upon our conscience. The problem is not that we were once in charge, but that we are not in charge any more....

    This is still a country where too many people squat on their haunches, slowly waving their hands to move the flies from their faces. Too many people are rootling aimlessly for rubbish, competing with the marabou storks. Too many people are dying. But the epidemic is at last diminishing, from a high of 30 per cent, in a population carpetbombed with safe-sex initiatives, and they are wising up to the reasons for transmission (if we love Amanda, and admire Miranda, what do we do with Buganda?). The economy is growing at 6 per cent; and if Museveni is no democrat, he is no Mugabe. If Blair has any sense, he won't wring his hands over Africa. He'll urge us all to come here for our holidays — and what could be better than the Murchison Falls.
    He'll talk us into snapping up that little island in Lake Victoria, investing in hotels, TVs, mobile-phone companies. The best fate for Africa would be if the old colonial powers, or their citizens, scrambled once again in her direction; on the understanding that this time they will not be asked to feel guilty.'

    And who could disagree with that?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    DougSeal said:

    ...However you cannot seriously suggest that as of today’s date you are not a Leaver.

    Personally, I suspect that he would claim that black is white if it were party policy. No doubt (as per Douglas Adams) he would then get run over when next using a Zebra Crossing... :D
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:



    'Arglefargle, hoohah, yaroo'

    And who could disagree with that?

    Me.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    @HYUFD -

    The bust was the biggest noty.’‘ B. Johnson, The Sun, February 2002.

    The issue was Obama deliberately removed a bust of Churchill that was already there and which Trump restored.

    According to David Lammy even Comic Relief is colonialism
    Bullshit He didn’trump-and-dr-king_b_587bba7ee4b077a19d180eb3

    https://grazia.com.au/articles/kate-middleton-donald-trump-tweet/

    Who gives a toss what David Lammy thinks? Your leader, and our PM (thank God briefly) said in 2002 of Africa in The Spectator “The problem is not that we were once in charge, but that we are not in charge anymore”. That is a call for us to actually go in and run the place. There’s no quibble, surely, about that being a call for a return to boots on the ground old fashioned imperialism.

    Obama removed the Churchill bust given by the British Embassy from the Oval Office as even the article you linked to makes clear when there was no requirement to do so.



    Your Boris quote is a typical left liberal distortion of the truth, selective quotation and dirty trick. Boris actually said 'Heaven knows what the Foreign Office has cooked up for Blair, or quite how this British prime minister will choose to break the winds of change. But we must hope, for the sake of candour and common sense, that he does not blame Britain, or colonialism, or the white man. The continent may be a blot, but it is not a blot upon our conscience. The problem is not that we were once in charge, but that we are not in charge any more....

    This is still a country where too many people squat on their haunches, slowly waving their hands to move the flies from their faces. Too many people are rootling aimlessly for rubbish, competing with the marabou storks. Too many people are dying. But the epidemic is at last diminishing, from a high of 30 per cent, in a population carpetbombed with safe-sex initiatives, and they are wising up to the reasons for transmission (if we love Amanda, and admire Miranda, what do we do with Buganda?). The economy is growing at 6 per cent; and if Museveni is no democrat, he is no Mugabe. If Blair has any sense, he won't wring his hands over Africa. He'll urge us all to come here for our holidays — and what could be better than the Murchison Falls.
    He'll talk us into snapping up that little island in Lake Victoria, investing in hotels, TVs, mobile-phone companies. The best fate for Africa would be if the old colonial powers, or their citizens, scrambled once again in her direction; on the understanding that this time they will not be asked to feel guilty.'

    And who could disagree with that?
    Me.
    Me too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2019
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
    Actually the latest figure is 29%.

    I think you will also find that sweeping generalisations are unhelpful. For example, large parts of Montgomeryshire and a significant chunk of north-western Shropshire are Welsh-speaking, as are the western Valleys and Carmarthenshire. Ystradgynlais is a town with a significant Welsh language population. Equally, speak it in large parts of Aberystwyth and you will get blank looks. You will hear it spoken in Llwyngwril, but not in Fairbourne five miles to the north.
    29% includes those who only speak it partly not fully and 71% thus do not speak it at all.

    Of the current Tory held seats as I said only Montgomeryshire is a Plaid target with significant numbers of Welsh speakers and indeed at the last general election Plaid were still only 4th there.


    Not 1 Plaid held seat is even in the top 50 Tory target seats for the next general election either
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    tlg86 said:

    Grim news from the US concerning gun crime, but there's some interesting stuff on Wiki concerning homicides and race:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide


    Blacks account for the majority of gun homicide victims/arrestees in the US while whites account for the vast majority of non-gun homicide victims/arrestees, of the gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 57% were black, 40.6% white (including Hispanic), 1.35% Asian, 0.98% unknown race and 0.48% Native American.

    Non-gun homicides, represented about 30% of total murders in the time period. Blacks were still overrepresented although only by about 2.5x their share of the general population. Of the non-gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 61.5% were white (including Hispanic), 32.9% black, 2.29% Asian, 1.89% unknown race and 1.43% Native American.


    If true, those are quite striking statistics given the perpetrators of the killing sprees reported by the UK media are almost always white. I guess this means that the scale of gun crime within the black community is pretty big as it outweighs all the killing sprees perpetrated by whites.

    Just as most murders in the UK are committed by someone known to the victim, spree killings must be vastly unrepresentative of most gun homicides in the US
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
    Actually the latest figure is 29%.

    I think you will also find that sweeping generalisations are unhelpful. For example, large parts of Montgomeryshire and a significant chunk of north-western Shropshire are Welsh-speaking, as are the western Valleys and Carmarthenshire. Ystradgynlais is a town with a significant Welsh language population. Equally, speak it in large parts of Aberystwyth and you will get blank looks. You will hear it spoken in Llwyngwril, but not in Fairbourne five miles to the north.
    Is it not also the case that speakers of different Welsh dialects would likely be unintelligable to each other?
    I wouldn't go so far as to say 'unintelligible.' There are very significant dialectical differences, more so than in English. That means that, for example, when I am speaking in Welsh to somebody from Arfon I have to keep adjusting my ideas for certain words and sometimes I will get funny looks (although that might also be because my Welsh is not very good)!

    The reason for this is that until comparatively recently there was no standard form of spoken Welsh in the way that here became in English with the issuing of Johnson's dictionary, partly because of course English was used as the language of law and administration and therefore by default, most higher end culture (books, plays etc) as well. There was a written standard from the eighteenth century, and thanks to the circulating schools most Welsh people could read their Bible long before England became literate. But because Welsh depends a great deal on the accent for its infamous mutations, that didn't translate well to the spoken language.

    This is of course one reason why Welsh is more threatened by the breakup of local communities than English is. But I would say the differences are less acute than they were thirty years ago, particularly with the new qualifications in Welsh and he spread of Welsh language television and radio, so it may be that the spoken language will become more homogenous from hereon in.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    @HYUFD -

    The bust was the biggest non-issue in recent history. As @Richard_Tyndall said, it was due to be returned. Trump got it back. So what if his favourite foreign leader was Merkel? Are you so insecure that just because someone is not your best friend they must “hate” you. That’s pathetic. Does POTUS have to have the bust of every one of his allies’ favourite leaders in the Oval Office? Are the French, who are the USA’s oldest ally, pissed off there is no DeGaulle in there? I’m sure Trump has done something for the Invictus Games but that doesn’t mean that BoJo had a scintilla of evidence for saying Obama “hated” the UK.

    Cannibalism is also illegal in PNG. Boris was implying that it is a national characteristic.

    ‘‘The best fate for Africa would be if the old colonial powers, or their citizens, scrambled once again in her direction; on the understanding that this time they will not be asked to feel guilty.’‘ B. Johnson, The Sun, February 2002.

    The issue was Obama deliberately removed a bust of Churchill that was already there and which Trump restored.

    According to David Lammy even Comic Relief is colonialism
    No he didn't. That is again a myth. Trump hasn't even restored the bust that was removed at the end of GWBs tenure. ow Leaver.
    Trump has restored a bust of Churchill to the Oval Office, Obama removed one, it is the symbol it represents that matters not who created it.

    I also as you know was a reluctant Remainer not a Leaver but respect the Brexit vote, Deal or No Deal
    God knows @Richard_Tyndall and I have had some bust ups but, again, this is rubbish. The Epstein bust was loaned for the period of GWB’s tenure and, as per that agreement, it was returned at the end of said tenure. If our national pride rests on office decoration then we are in more trouble than I thought.

    You voted Remain but have constantly described yourself as a Leaver. People’s views are not cast in aspic. They change. Richard correctly says you are a Leaver. If you are a Remainer it’s news to us. You may have BEEN a Remainer but clearly your standpoint has moved. Where Richard and I differ, occasionally vociferously, is whether such movement should be gauged in a further referendum. However you cannot seriously suggest that as of today’s date you are not a Leaver.
    No, there was no requirement for the Churchill bust to be returned to the British Embassy after Obama's term ended.


    I respect the will of the people to leave the EU, Deal or No Deal, however for the purposes of pollsters I would be classified as a Remainer not a Leaver having reluctantly voted Remain in 2016
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
    That doesn’t mean that more than 19% are not going to get rather pissed off at their ancestral language being so described.
    It has been pointed out that more people in Wales speak Polish than Welsh, so maybe Polish should be on the roadsigns.

    Of course, that was pre-Brexit. Maybe the Poles have "... all gone back where they came from... " as per alt-right policy, so Boston, Lincs, must be packed :D:D:D
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    Grim news from the US concerning gun crime, but there's some interesting stuff on Wiki concerning homicides and race:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide


    Blacks account for the majority of gun homicide victims/arrestees in the US while whites account for the vast majority of non-gun homicide victims/arrestees, of the gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 57% were black, 40.6% white (including Hispanic), 1.35% Asian, 0.98% unknown race and 0.48% Native American.

    Non-gun homicides, represented about 30% of total murders in the time period. Blacks were still overrepresented although only by about 2.5x their share of the general population. Of the non-gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 61.5% were white (including Hispanic), 32.9% black, 2.29% Asian, 1.89% unknown race and 1.43% Native American.


    If true, those are quite striking statistics given the perpetrators of the killing sprees reported by the UK media are almost always white. I guess this means that the scale of gun crime within the black community is pretty big as it outweighs all the killing sprees perpetrated by whites.

    Just as most murders in the UK are committed by someone known to the victim, spree killings must be vastly unrepresentative of most gun homicides in the US
    Indeed, but the whole US gun crime story is viewed in this country through the lens of spree killings. If they actually did something about gun ownership, I wonder if it would make much difference to the non-spree killings.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
    Actually the latest figure is 29%.

    I think you will also find that sweeping generalisations are unhelpful. For example, large parts of Montgomeryshire and a significant chunk of north-western Shropshire are Welsh-speaking, as are the western Valleys and Carmarthenshire. Ystradgynlais is a town with a significant Welsh language population. Equally, speak it in large parts of Aberystwyth and you will get blank looks. You will hear it spoken in Llwyngwril, but not in Fairbourne five miles to the north.
    Is it not also the case that speakers of different Welsh dialects would likely be unintelligable to each other?
    I wouldn't go so far as to say 'unintelligible.' There are very significant dialectical differences, more so than in English. That means that, for example, when I am speaking in Welsh to somebody from Arfon I have to keep adjusting my ideas for certain words and sometimes I will get funny looks (although that might also be because my Welsh is not very good)!

    The reason for this is that until comparatively recently there was no standard form of spoken Welsh in the way that here became in English with the issuing of Johnson's dictionary, partly because of course English was used as the language of law and administration and therefore by default, most higher end culture (books, plays etc) as well. There was a written standard from the eighteenth century, and thanks to the circulating schools most Welsh people could read their Bible long before England became literate. But because Welsh depends a great deal on the accent for its infamous mutations, that didn't translate well to the spoken language.

    This is of course one reason why Welsh is more threatened by the breakup of local communities than English is. But I would say the differences are less acute than they were thirty years ago, particularly with the new qualifications in Welsh and he spread of Welsh language television and radio, so it may be that the spoken language will become more homogenous from hereon in.
    I would agree. And add that was the case with English not too long ago. I doubt the older generation of Leigh miners in my family, who I remember from my youth would have been comprehensible to many outside the area.
    The arrival of the BBC helped that. Although many could not understand it.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    @HYUFD -

    The bust was the biggest noty.’‘ B. Johnson, The Sun, February 2002.

    The issue was Obama deliberately removed a bust of Churchill that was already there and which Trump restored.

    According to David Lammy even Comic Relief is colonialism
    Bullshit He didn’trump-and-dr-king_b_587bba7ee4b077a19d180eb3

    https://grazia.com.au/articles/kate-middleton-donald-trump-tweet/

    Who gives a toss what David Lammy thinks? Your leader, and our PM (thank God briefly) said in 2002 of Africa in The Spectator “The problem is not that we were once in charge, but that we are not in charge anymore”. That is a call for us to actually go in and run the place. There’s no quibble, surely, about that being a call for a return to boots on the ground old fashioned imperialism.

    Obama removed the Churchill bust given by the British Embassy from the Oval Office as even the article you linked to makes clear when there was no requirement to do so.
    Churchill is long dead. Obama is an ex-President.

    None of it matters. Move on...
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Grim news from the US concerning gun crime, but there's some interesting stuff on Wiki concerning homicides and race:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide


    Blacks account for the majority of gun homicide victims/arrestees in the US while whites account for the vast majority of non-gun homicide victims/arrestees, of the gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 57% were black, 40.6% white (including Hispanic), 1.35% Asian, 0.98% unknown race and 0.48% Native American.

    Non-gun homicides, represented about 30% of total murders in the time period. Blacks were still overrepresented although only by about 2.5x their share of the general population. Of the non-gun murder victims in the United States between 2007-2016, 61.5% were white (including Hispanic), 32.9% black, 2.29% Asian, 1.89% unknown race and 1.43% Native American.


    If true, those are quite striking statistics given the perpetrators of the killing sprees reported by the UK media are almost always white. I guess this means that the scale of gun crime within the black community is pretty big as it outweighs all the killing sprees perpetrated by whites.

    Just as most murders in the UK are committed by someone known to the victim, spree killings must be vastly unrepresentative of most gun homicides in the US
    Indeed, but the whole US gun crime story is viewed in this country through the lens of spree killings. If they actually did something about gun ownership, I wonder if it would make much difference to the non-spree killings.
    If you cut down on gun homicides generally, that would surely be an end in itself.

    A bonus if you cut down on domestic acts of terror.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    And the Welsh. I expect the Plaid Cymru social media micro-targeting team will have noted Boris describing their language as a weird creole.

    Only 19% of Welsh residents speak Welsh and most of those in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, Anglesey and the Welsh West coast


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
    Actually the latest figure is 29%.

    I think you will also find that sweeping generalisations are unhelpful. For example, large parts of Montgomeryshire and a significant chunk of north-western Shropshire are Welsh-speaking, as are the western Valleys and Carmarthenshire. Ystradgynlais is a town with a significant Welsh language population. Equally, speak it in large parts of Aberystwyth and you will get blank looks. You will hear it spoken in Llwyngwril, but not in Fairbourne five miles to the north.
    29% includes those who only speak it partly not fully and 71% thus do not speak it at all.

    Of the current Tory held seats as I said only Montgomeryshire is a Plaid target with significant numbers of Welsh speakers and indeed at the last general election Plaid were still only 4th there
    And?

    You think it somehow doesn't matter?

    Has it occurred to you that it's going to make it a hell of a lot more difficult to hold or take Welsh-speaking seats, not just from Plaid? Vale of Clwyd, Wrexham, Preseli Pembrokeshire, Montgomeryshire, Carmarthen West, Bridgend and Aberconwy all spring to mind as potential targets/defences with substantial Welsh language populations.

    And Welsh speakers do not only vote for Plaid Cymru. Huge numbers vote Labour, although that might be changing, and believe me plenty in Montgomeryshire in particular will cheerfully vote for the Liberal Democrats.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    @HYUFD

    You’re entitled to your opinions but not your own facts. You are at best mistaken and at worse being deliberately disingenuous-

    “According to a 2010 interview with White House curator William Allman, the decision to return the bust had been made even before Obama arrived, as the loan was scheduled to last only as long as Bush’s presidency. That narrative was confirmed by British ambassador Sir Peter Westmacott just before stepped down in 2015: “To be honest, we always expected that to leave the Oval Office just like everything else that a president has tends to be changed,” he told The Guardian newspaper. “Even the carpet is usually changed when the president changes.””

    https://washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/01/23/heres-the-real-story-about-the-churchill-bust-in-the-oval-office/?utm_term=.04fd006075ea

    For the purposes pollsters my arse. You are a person who believes in leaving the EU. You are thus a Leaver.

    This isn’t Warwick Uni debating society.
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