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  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,750
    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parliament was elected by the people. Its legitimacy comes from the voters. The Tory party asked for a mandate for a hard Brexit. It was denied it. It did not have a majority and is now a minority government. It needs to try and govern in light of that fact. Instead of which it is behaving as if it had a majority. The fact that it is a minority is somehow seen as a sort of Parliamentary impertinence and not a reflection of the voters' wishes.

    As another girly swot put it:

    "We live in a representative democracy. The House of Commons exists because the people have elected its members. The Government is not directly elected by the people (unlike the position in some other democracies). The Government exists because it has the confidence of the House of Commons. It has no democratic legitimacy other than that. This means that it is accountable to the House of Commons - and indeed to the House of Lords - for its actions, remembering always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts."

    (Para. 55 of the judgment, if anyone's interested.)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,395
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Boris Johnson has paved the way for an acrimonious “people versus parliament” general election with a defiant defence of his Brexit strategy, in which he refused to take any blame for his historic defeat in the Supreme Court.

    On a day of ferocious debate in the House of Commons, which was recalled after Britain’s highest court overturned the prime minister’s attempt to suspend it for five weeks, he claimed MPs were trying to “sabotage” Brexit."

    https://www.ft.com/content/5cd109c6-df82-11e9-9743-db5a370481bc

    I've seen no debate going on, just mud slinging.
    Indeed. You can see why the SC thought we had not had enough of this already, can't you?
    It's parliament's time to waste as they choose.
    Apparently so. We are so fortunate.
    Ironic statement aside, of course we are not, and that's very frustrating. But it is their responsibilty to resolve, or not, and we will judge them accordingly.
    I think the judgment on this Parliament came in some time ago. It was not favourable.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 3,859

    Chris said:

    Noo said:

    I am scared about where we are going I really am.
    I'm really glad other people are saying this. Cox's statement today made my blood run cold.
    Absolutely.

    "It couldn't happen here?" Don't you believe it.
    Thread:

    I just don't buy that about Yugoslavia. They were ruled by Tito for what 25-30 years. He was a brutal dictator that kept all the tensions between factions at bay under fear of the gun. When he died, within what 10 years, there was civil war.
    Could be she's a Serb?
    I have no idea, but anybody trying to tell the world there was no long standing major problems in Yugoslavia in the previous 50 years leading up to the war is talking the sort of boulder-dash and piffle Boris usually comes out with.
    I thought he was Turkish
  • PudPud Posts: 1
    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.
  • ERG/Brexit - Baker and Tice
    Cabinet leavers - Leadsom, Fox, Barclay
    Remainers trying to mediate/leave with a deal - Stewart, Clarke, Morgan, Kinnock, Benn, Letwin, Boles
    Remainers trying to remain - Grieve, Swinson, Sturgeon
  • kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Boris Johnson has paved the way for an acrimonious “people versus parliament” general election with a defiant defence of his Brexit strategy, in which he refused to take any blame for his historic defeat in the Supreme Court.

    On a day of ferocious debate in the House of Commons, which was recalled after Britain’s highest court overturned the prime minister’s attempt to suspend it for five weeks, he claimed MPs were trying to “sabotage” Brexit."

    https://www.ft.com/content/5cd109c6-df82-11e9-9743-db5a370481bc

    I've seen no debate going on, just mud slinging.
    Indeed. You can see why the SC thought we had not had enough of this already, can't you?
    It's parliament's time to waste as they choose.
    What a glorious edifying demonstration from all sides of the magnificence of the Mother of Parliaments. A chamber which used to legislate over two fifths of the worlds surface. Nearly four hundred years of uninterrupted governance.

    They may as well just all roll up their sleeves and have a bloody good punch up. All pile on.

    For a televised parliamentary rumble what would be the best pairing for fisticuffs and the associated odds? Dennis Skinner giving JRM a Chinese burn?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,395
    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Superbly amusing first post. Shows great promise. Welcome.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 22,374
    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Blimey.

    I had no idea such strong drugs were available in Brighton.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 12,564
    Barnesian said:

    TGOHF2 said:

    Noo said:

    Byronic said:

    I’m extending my test. Can any PB-er think of any figure, from politics, whose reputation has been enhanced by the Brexit process?

    Try not to be too partisan. It’s boring. If you can’t find anyone in politics you are allowed to trawl the worlds of journalism, law and academe.

    Joanna Cherry
    She was starting from a very very low base.

    Anyone watching "The Capture"?
    Yes we all know what happens when the big red bus comes past
  • ydoethur said:

    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Blimey.

    I had no idea such strong drugs were available in Brighton.
    Must have got hold of some of that Monkey Dust Stoke have become infamous for.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,014
    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Splendid effort Ms Abbott.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 177
    edited September 25
    kle4 said:

    Here's a question.
    Is this Hulky Boris a deliberate act- is culture war the next stage of the masterplan?
    Or is it just that he's too jetlagged and cross to do the affable thing?

    I think bullishness is the only option he has, as it disguises that he is powerless and at the whim of others, both in the EU and in parliament.
    Bullish is one thing. Geoffrey Cox was bullish.
    BJ was just nasty. I wonder if some combination of the job and his approach is making him fall apart.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 3,859
    ydoethur said:

    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Blimey.

    I had no idea such strong drugs were available in Brighton.
    You obviously don't know Brighton
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 11,477
    The mention of ‘ground game’ reminded me of IOS.

    :smile:

    DavidL said:

    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Superbly amusing first post. Shows great promise. Welcome.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 22,374

    ydoethur said:

    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Blimey.

    I had no idea such strong drugs were available in Brighton.
    You obviously don't know Brighton
    Well, I don't, not very well.

    Perhaps to be clearer I should have said, even in Brighton.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,551
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    I’m extending my test. Can any PB-er think of any figure, from politics, whose reputation has been enhanced by the Brexit process?

    Try not to be too partisan. It’s boring. If you can’t find anyone in politics you are allowed to trawl the worlds of journalism, law and academe.

    Rory Stewart
    Joanna Cherry
    Try and think of someone on the Leave side. It’s more interesting that way.
    Rhodes must be fun if you've spent all day on PB. again. Do you need a guide book?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 27,699
    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,395
    ydoethur said:

    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Blimey.

    I had no idea such strong drugs were available in Brighton.
    Strong drugs are available absolutely everywhere and are killing a lot of people. If our politicians could just do what they were told about Brexit we might actually have time to consider some solutions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 22,374

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    I will assume that if she doesn't text me a firm refusal in the next five minutes Margot Robbie will be around my place tomorrow night.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 27,699
    ydoethur said:

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    I will assume that if she doesn't text me a firm refusal in the next five minutes Margot Robbie will be around my place tomorrow night.
    Start your stopwatch.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 3,859
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Blimey.

    I had no idea such strong drugs were available in Brighton.
    You obviously don't know Brighton
    Well, I don't, not very well.

    Perhaps to be clearer I should have said, even in Brighton.
    As my Mum would have said (but not about Brighton in her time), Brighton is a very racy place.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 22,374

    ydoethur said:

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    I will assume that if she doesn't text me a firm refusal in the next five minutes Margot Robbie will be around my place tomorrow night.
    Start your stopwatch.
    Never heard it called that before, Mr Meeks, but since you insist...
  • Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    Surely a prorogation before Oct 31 is still fine if for the usual length of time? Have I missed something?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 27,699

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    Surely a prorogation before Oct 31 is still fine if for the usual length of time? Have I missed something?
    “In order to achieve it”.
  • Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    Presumably if it was only 5-6 days that would be fine.

    Regarding the "surrender bill", there is no doubt it is unfair but then were the "dementia tax" and "spare room tax" fair?
  • Cyclefree said:

    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parliament was elected by the people. Its legitimacy comes from the voters. The Tory party asked for a mandate for a hard Brexit. It was denied it. It did not have a majority and is now a minority government. It needs to try and govern in light of that fact. Instead of which it is behaving as if it had a majority. The fact that it is a minority is somehow seen as a sort of Parliamentary impertinence and not a reflection of the voters' wishes.

    As another girly swot put it:

    "We live in a representative democracy. The House of Commons exists because the people have elected its members. The Government is not directly elected by the people (unlike the position in some other democracies). The Government exists because it has the confidence of the House of Commons. It has no democratic legitimacy other than that. This means that it is accountable to the House of Commons - and indeed to the House of Lords - for its actions, remembering always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts."

    (Para. 55 of the judgment, if anyone's interested.)

    It was elected on a promise to enact Brexit. It has betrayed that promise is now afraidbof facing the electorate. Hence the bizzare spectacle of preventing a General Election and keeping a party with no majority in office and refusing to let it govern.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 12,564
    Mortimer said:

    The mention of ‘ground game’ reminded me of IOS.

    :smile:



    DavidL said:

    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Superbly amusing first post. Shows great promise. Welcome.
    IOS was right.

    The lack of a ground game turned a landslide into a hung Parliament
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 3,452

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    Utterly desperate from the Bozo clown show.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,750
    ydoethur said:

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    I will assume that if she doesn't text me a firm refusal in the next five minutes Margot Robbie will be around my place tomorrow night.
    I'm also assuming that Alexis Georgoulis (Spiro in The Durrells) will be round shortly to ferry me around London, make eyes at me and then s*** me on the beach (that's enough! - Ed.)
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,259

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    Presumably there is a length of prorogation that is legally acceptable. Some time between 5 days and 5 weeks. How long was Major's?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 27,699

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    Presumably if it was only 5-6 days that would be fine.

    Regarding the "surrender bill", there is no doubt it is unfair but then were the "dementia tax" and "spare room tax" fair?
    Were people receiving death threats about them?
  • Mortimer said:

    The mention of ‘ground game’ reminded me of IOS.

    :smile:



    DavidL said:

    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Superbly amusing first post. Shows great promise. Welcome.
    IOS was right.

    The lack of a ground game turned a landslide into a hung Parliament
    Erhhh....IOS was about and making those claims when Cameron won the GE.
  • Happy to add Phillips to my list of politicians who have enhanced their reputations. A very different MP and the house is better for her presence.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 22,374
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    I will assume that if she doesn't text me a firm refusal in the next five minutes Margot Robbie will be around my place tomorrow night.
    I'm also assuming that Alexis Georgoulis (Spiro in The Durrells) will be round shortly to ferry me around London, make eyes at me and then s*** me on the beach (that's enough! - Ed.)
    The five minutes are up and the lovely lady hasn't texted.

    It's on, according to Downing Street Logic...
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    I am scared about where we are going I really am.
    The referendum was an inflexion point. Britain is the 21st century Argentina.
    Oh catch yourself on, we have a minority government and a restless parliament that large parts of disagree with the manifesto commitments of the two main parties, which followed naturally from a referendum victory.

    Meanwhile we have a booming economy.

    The inability of so many of those who are not used to losing to come to terms with losing is remarkable.

    Booming economy? You’re quite unhinged.
    More employed than ever before (as a percentage).

    Low inflation.

    Rising wages.

    How many years since a recession? 10 years?

    AM doesn't do contrary opinions
    I do facts. I realise that they are unpopular among the death cult but a booming economy requires an economy to be growing rapidly. Right now, Britain’s is being strangled by Brexit.
    God, you're death culting again - you really should get help
    He is far beyond help. Like Gollum. Rare flashes of normality cannot hide the obsessive madness beneath.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 27,699
    Gabs2 said:

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    Presumably there is a length of prorogation that is legally acceptable. Some time between 5 days and 5 weeks. How long was Major's?
    It’s not the length, it’s the effect. Read the judgment.

    It can be summed up as “don’t take the piss”.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 20,836
    edited September 25

    Cyclefree said:

    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parliament was elected by the people. Its legitimacy comes from the voters. The Tory party asked for a mandate for a hard Brexit. It was denied it. It did not have a majority and is now a minority government. It needs to try and govern in light of that fact. Instead of which it is behaving as if it had a majority. The fact that it is a minority is somehow seen as a sort of Parliamentary impertinence and not a reflection of the voters' wishes.

    As another girly swot put it:

    "We live in a representative democracy. The House of Commons exists because the people have elected its members. The Government is not directly elected by the people (unlike the position in some other democracies). The Government exists because it has the confidence of the House of Commons. It has no democratic legitimacy other than that. This means that it is accountable to the House of Commons - and indeed to the House of Lords - for its actions, remembering always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts."

    (Para. 55 of the judgment, if anyone's interested.)

    It was elected on a promise to enact Brexit. It has betrayed that promise is now afraidbof facing the electorate. Hence the bizzare spectacle of preventing a General Election and keeping a party with no majority in office and refusing to let it govern.
    First it was not elected, there was a hung parliament. And secondly they promised to enact an orderly Brexit.

    Other than that good post.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,750

    Cyclefree said:

    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parliament was elected by the people. Its legitimacy comes from the voters. The Tory party asked for a mandate for a hard Brexit. It was denied it. It did not have a majority and is now a minority government. It needs to try and govern in light of that fact. Instead of which it is behaving as if it had a majority. The fact that it is a minority is somehow seen as a sort of Parliamentary impertinence and not a reflection of the voters' wishes.

    As another girly swot put it:

    "We live in a representative democracy. The House of Commons exists because the people have elected its members. The Government is not directly elected by the people (unlike the position in some other democracies). The Government exists because it has the confidence of the House of Commons. It has no democratic legitimacy other than that. This means that it is accountable to the House of Commons - and indeed to the House of Lords - for its actions, remembering always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts."

    (Para. 55 of the judgment, if anyone's interested.)

    It was elected on a promise to enact Brexit. It has betrayed that promise is now afraidbof facing the electorate. Hence the bizzare spectacle of preventing a General Election and keeping a party with no majority in office and refusing to let it govern.
    It was elected in 2017. It has at least another 2 years before an election need be called. Plenty of time for it to renegotiate a deal which will enact Brexit.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,750
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    I will assume that if she doesn't text me a firm refusal in the next five minutes Margot Robbie will be around my place tomorrow night.
    I'm also assuming that Alexis Georgoulis (Spiro in The Durrells) will be round shortly to ferry me around London, make eyes at me and then s*** me on the beach (that's enough! - Ed.)
    The five minutes are up and the lovely lady hasn't texted.

    It's on, according to Downing Street Logic...
    Well, I'm off to get myself ready for the time of my life, too ......
  • TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parliament was elected by the people. Its legitimacy comes from the voters. The Tory party asked for a mandate for a hard Brexit. It was denied it. It did not have a majority and is now a minority government. It needs to try and govern in light of that fact. Instead of which it is behaving as if it had a majority. The fact that it is a minority is somehow seen as a sort of Parliamentary impertinence and not a reflection of the voters' wishes.

    As another girly swot put it:

    "We live in a representative democracy. The House of Commons exists because the people have elected its members. The Government is not directly elected by the people (unlike the position in some other democracies). The Government exists because it has the confidence of the House of Commons. It has no democratic legitimacy other than that. This means that it is accountable to the House of Commons - and indeed to the House of Lords - for its actions, remembering always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts."

    (Para. 55 of the judgment, if anyone's interested.)

    It was elected on a promise to enact Brexit. It has betrayed that promise is now afraidbof facing the electorate. Hence the bizzare spectacle of preventing a General Election and keeping a party with no majority in office and refusing to let it govern.
    First it was not elected, there was a hung parliament. And secondly they promised to enact an orderly Brexit.

    Other than that good post.
    Parliament is elected as a body whether there is a majority or not.
  • Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    Presumably if it was only 5-6 days that would be fine.

    Regarding the "surrender bill", there is no doubt it is unfair but then were the "dementia tax" and "spare room tax" fair?
    Were people receiving death threats about them?
    Theresa probably gave Nick Timothy a poisonous look or two after dt bombed.
  • Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    Presumably if it was only 5-6 days that would be fine.

    Regarding the "surrender bill", there is no doubt it is unfair but then were the "dementia tax" and "spare room tax" fair?
    Were people receiving death threats about them?
    If Boris stopped using the word surrender, would the death threats go away? In my view, the way to make the death threats go away is to resolve Brexit. Even if Brexit is not resolved as Brexiteers would like, the anger will subside over time. The longer Brexit is unresolved the more the anger will grow on both sides.

    And as Bercow said it is not just remain MPs being threatened.

    Mr Bercow says: "Members must say what they think - and they do and that's right - on both sides of the House and on different sides of this argument, but I would like to emphasise that I am keenly conscious of the fact that there are members on both sides of the House and indeed on both side of the argument that have been threatened.

    "And I have stated very publicly my revulsion at such behaviour, whether it has affected members on one side or the other, people who are anti-Brexit, or members are pro-Brexit whose families have been wrongly threatened or whose parents have been abused in their presence.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 28,693
    I think the callous disregard of hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq gives Tony Blair an unassailable lead on that score.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 12,564
    Long may Jester carry on like tonight.

    It will focus the minds of all those who dont want him back in power
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,750
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parliament was elected by the people. Its legitimacy comes from the voters. The Tory party asked for a mandate for a hard Brexit. It was denied it. It did not have a majority and is now a minority government. It needs to try and govern in light of that fact. Instead of which it is behaving as if it had a majority. The fact that it is a minority is somehow seen as a sort of Parliamentary impertinence and not a reflection of the voters' wishes.

    As another girly swot put it:

    "We live in a representative democracy. The House of Commons exists because the people have elected its members. The Government is not directly elected by the people (unlike the position in some other democracies). The Government exists because it has the confidence of the House of Commons. It has no democratic legitimacy other than that. This means that it is accountable to the House of Commons - and indeed to the House of Lords - for its actions, remembering always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts."

    (Para. 55 of the judgment, if anyone's interested.)

    It was elected on a promise to enact Brexit. It has betrayed that promise is now afraidbof facing the electorate. Hence the bizzare spectacle of preventing a General Election and keeping a party with no majority in office and refusing to let it govern.
    First it was not elected, there was a hung parliament. And secondly they promised to enact an orderly Brexit.

    Other than that good post.
    Parliament was elected. The government was just about elected - with the DUP's support. And yes I know about the manifesto. It's a point I've repeatedly made. An orderly withdrawal. But apparently that promise no longer matters.

    Apparently only a disorderly withdrawal is implementing the referendum result. The dishonesty is breathtaking. Still, what can you expect from a government whose leader thinks that it is humbug to be concerned about violent words leading to violence against female MPs.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,836
    edited September 25
    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 2,684
    Boris is doing very well here. Two hours of bravura bluster.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 4,865
    Bercow, who has been in the Chair since 11:30 can see that Johnson is flagging. He is going to string this out as long as he can.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 12,564
    Oh no the Commenwealth games will be another Aussie Triumph.

    Hopefully Scotland and Wales will still be allowed to compete.
  • tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    Labour not whipping to support WA irrespective of ERG nuts.

    If that had passed we would have been in the transition period and we would be talking about pasty taxes like the old days.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 16,832

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    I thought prorogation for 5 days in order to have a Queens Speech has been allowed by Their Lord and Ladyships?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 20,836

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parliament was elected by the people. Its legitimacy comes from the voters. The Tory party asked for a mandate for a hard Brexit. It was denied it. It did not have a majority and is now a minority government. It needs to try and govern in light of that fact. Instead of which it is behaving as if it had a majority. The fact that it is a minority is somehow seen as a sort of Parliamentary impertinence and not a reflection of the voters' wishes.

    As another girly swot put it:

    "We live in a representative democracy. The House of Commons exists because the people have elected its members. The Government is not directly elected by the people (unlike the position in some other democracies). The Government exists because it has the confidence of the House of Commons. It has no democratic legitimacy other than that. This means that it is accountable to the House of Commons - and indeed to the House of Lords - for its actions, remembering always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts."

    (Para. 55 of the judgment, if anyone's interested.)

    It was elected on a promise to enact Brexit. It has betrayed that promise is now afraidbof facing the electorate. Hence the bizzare spectacle of preventing a General Election and keeping a party with no majority in office and refusing to let it govern.
    First it was not elected, there was a hung parliament. And secondly they promised to enact an orderly Brexit.

    Other than that good post.
    Parliament is elected as a body whether there is a majority or not.
    So you are saying that the SNP were elected on a promise to enact brexit?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 22,374

    Long may Jester carry on like tonight.

    It will focus the minds of all those who dont want him back in power

    Why? What has he said? This thread has mostly been about Johnson so I was assuming Jester Corbyn was keeping schtum.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 49,363
    edited September 25
    None of that matters. Without Brexit the Tories are ruined. Without at least hinting at breaking the law the Tories have no hope of winning an election, because for some reason this shows they are serious. Therefore Johnson will continue to push legal boundaries, and probably overstep another one
    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    We didn't listen to the last two PMs. If we had, he would not be where he is. And then we blame them for that because it's easier than blaming the voters.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 3,237
    Cyclefree said:

    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parliament was elected by the people. Its legitimacy comes from the voters. The Tory party asked for a mandate for a hard Brexit. It was denied it. It did not have a majority and is now a minority government. It needs to try and govern in light of that fact. Instead of which it is behaving as if it had a majority. The fact that it is a minority is somehow seen as a sort of Parliamentary impertinence and not a reflection of the voters' wishes.

    To play devil's advocate for a moment, Johnson's criticism of the Commons is not entirely without merit. The vast bulk of them were elected on manifestos that promised to deliver Brexit (and most of those were also amongst the cohort in the 2015 Parliament that voted to hold a referendum with a Leave option in the first place.) They have then failed to do so and, just as many voters believe that Johnson lied about the real reasons behind the lengthy prorogation, many others doubtless believe that those self-same MPs were and are lying through their teeth about their commitment to deliver Brexit. Both the widespread agitation for a second plebiscite, and the decision of the Liberal Democrats to go outright for revocation (whatever the merits of that position might or might not be,) can only have helped to reinforce this impression.

    The Commons was offered a compromise settlement by Theresa May. It rejected it, did not vote for anything else in its place, the EU27 aren't offering any other alternative form of agreement anyway, and therefore the compelling logic of the Government's position actually holds. Most MPs were re-elected on manifestos that promised to respect the result of the referendum and, if they can't agree to back any form of Withdrawal Agreement, then the only alternative available which respects that promise is Hard Brexit. The current impasse is not, in fact, the product of the policy of the minority Government, but that of the inertia of the majority Opposition: if Parliament won't back the Government then it should sling it out and install an alternative or, if it can't agree on an alternative, it should dissolve itself and allow the people to elect a replacement that might be able to do better.

    Of course, almost everyone's at fault to some degree in this mess. Johnson should arguably have resigned immediately and gone into Opposition when MPs passed the Benn Act against his wishes, and certainly should've done so once they also vetoed their own dissolution.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,395
    edited September 25
    Man U hanging on by the skin of their teeth against the mighty Rochdale at OT . Its about as depressing as Brexit. Put the 2 together and well, its not a good time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 22,374
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parliament was elected by the people. Its legitimacy comes from the voters. The Tory party asked for a mandate for a hard Brexit. It was denied it. It did not have a majority and is now a minority government. It needs to try and govern in light of that fact. Instead of which it is behaving as if it had a majority. The fact that it is a minority is somehow seen as a sort of Parliamentary impertinence and not a reflection of the voters' wishes.

    As another girly swot put it:

    "We live in a representative democracy. The House of Commons exists because the people have elected its members. The Government is not directly elected by the people (unlike the position in some other democracies). The Government exists because it has the confidence of the House of Commons. It has no democratic legitimacy other than that. This means that it is accountable to the House of Commons - and indeed to the House of Lords - for its actions, remembering always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts."

    (Para. 55 of the judgment, if anyone's interested.)

    It was elected on a promise to enact Brexit. It has betrayed that promise is now afraidbof facing the electorate. Hence the bizzare spectacle of preventing a General Election and keeping a party with no majority in office and refusing to let it govern.
    First it was not elected, there was a hung parliament. And secondly they promised to enact an orderly Brexit.

    Other than that good post.
    Parliament is elected as a body whether there is a majority or not.
    So you are saying that the SNP were elected on a promise to enact brexit?
    Given they were elected in a platform of independence - which would require Scotland to leave the EU at least temporarily- the answer could conceivably be yes.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 4,865
    Byronic said:

    Boris is doing very well here. Two hours of bravura bluster.

    Can he last another two hours? Can we? I think that's Bercow's plan.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 20,836
    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parliament was elected by the people. Its legitimacy comes from the voters. The Tory party asked for a mandate for a hard Brexit. It was denied it. It did not have a majority and is now a minority government. It needs to try and govern in light of that fact. Instead of which it is behaving as if it had a majority. The fact that it is a minority is somehow seen as a sort of Parliamentary impertinence and not a reflection of the voters' wishes.

    As another girly swot put it:

    "We live in a representative democracy. The House of Commons exists because the people have elected its members. The Government is not directly elected by the people (unlike the position in some other democracies). The Government exists because it has the confidence of the House of Commons. It has no democratic legitimacy other than that. This means that it is accountable to the House of Commons - and indeed to the House of Lords - for its actions, remembering always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts."

    (Para. 55 of the judgment, if anyone's interested.)

    It was elected on a promise to enact Brexit. It has betrayed that promise is now afraidbof facing the electorate. Hence the bizzare spectacle of preventing a General Election and keeping a party with no majority in office and refusing to let it govern.
    First it was not elected, there was a hung parliament. And secondly they promised to enact an orderly Brexit.

    Other than that good post.
    Parliament was elected. The government was just about elected - with the DUP's support. And yes I know about the manifesto. It's a point I've repeatedly made. An orderly withdrawal. But apparently that promise no longer matters.

    Apparently only a disorderly withdrawal is implementing the referendum result. The dishonesty is breathtaking. Still, what can you expect from a government whose leader thinks that it is humbug to be concerned about violent words leading to violence against female MPs.
    As per my reply to Tyndall, parliament may well have been elected but not to enact Brexit as he suggests. Not all of it and not in a disorderly manner.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 8,534

    I think the callous disregard of hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq gives Tony Blair an unassailable lead on that score.
    Jess Phillips is playing a cynical game there - but not as cynical or hypocritical as her colleague

    https://order-order.com/2019/09/25/emma-hardys-wife-beating-hypocrisy/
  • Byronic said:

    Boris is doing very well here. Two hours of bravura bluster.

    "There was me, that is Alexander Boris de Pfeffel, and my three droogs, that is Priti, Govey, and Davey D, and we sat in the Kensington Milkbar trying to make up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening. The Kensington Milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus Corn Syrup or GM Soya or Chlorinated Chicken, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old No Deal Brexit."
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,750
    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    He was inflicted on us by 92000 mostly elderly, mostly male Tory members and some Tory MPs without the sense they were born with.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/09/03/the-dangers-of-polite-demagogues/

    "Or Johnson with his messy hair, ill-fitting clothes, classical aphorisms, rather-too-pleased-with-itself wit and carefully crafted bumbling persona. That either of them should be viewed as serious contenders for the highest office suggests a failure to listen to what they say, to see that they mostly talk nonsense, sometimes dangerous, ill thought-out and harmful nonsense. It is a measure of how out of ideas and talent the Tories seem to be that amateurish eccentricity, incompetence in office and Boys Own enthusiasm are even thought of as serious contenders."
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 49,363

    Cyclefree said:

    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parles.

    To play devil's advocate for a moment, Johnson's criticism of the Commons is not entirely without merit. The vast bulk of them were elected on manifestos that promised to deliver Brexit (and most of those were also amongst the cohort in the 2015 Parliament that voted to hold a referendum with a Leave option in the first place.) They have then failed to do so and, just as many voters believe that Johnson lied about the real reasons behind the lengthy prorogation, many others doubtless believe that those self-same MPs were and are lying through their teeth about their commitment to deliver Brexit. Both the widespread agitation for a second plebiscite, and the decision of the Liberal Democrats to go outright for revocation (whatever the merits of that position might or might not be,) can only have helped to reinforce this impression.

    The Commons was offered a compromise settlement by Theresa May. It rejected it, did not vote for anything else in its place, the EU27 aren't offering any other alternative form of agreement anyway, and therefore the compelling logic of the Government's position actually holds. Most MPs were re-elected on manifestos that promised to respect the result of the referendum and, if they can't agree to back any form of Withdrawal Agreement, then the only alternative available which respects that promise is Hard Brexit. The current impasse is not, in fact, the product of the policy of the minority Government, but that of the inertia of the majority Opposition: if Parliament won't back the Government then it should sling it out and install an alternative or, if it can't agree on an alternative, it should dissolve itself and allow the people to elect a replacement that might be able to do better.

    Of course, almost everyone's at fault to some degree in this mess. Johnson should arguably have resigned immediately and gone into Opposition when MPs passed the Benn Act against his wishes, and certainly should've done so once they also vetoed their own dissolution.
    Johnson is making a bad situation even worse because he doesn't care about institutions or the law. Parliament has behaved disgracefully, but his criticism of them not being without merit does not force him to take action to escalate things even further. That's his personal choice, and one taken purely because he is afraid of BXP.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,348
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Blimey.

    I had no idea such strong drugs were available in Brighton.
    Strong drugs are available absolutely everywhere and are killing a lot of people. If our politicians could just do what they were told about Brexit we might actually have time to consider some solutions.
    I'm amazed you hadn't noticed, but they've spent the last couple of years trying to do what they were told about Brexit.

    Unfortunately one lot of people said Brexit was a soft-EEA style thing, and another lot of people said it was a hard, no-deal gig.

    In the meantime, the 48% of people who said they didn't want Brexit have been ignored.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 20,836

    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    Labour not whipping to support WA irrespective of ERG nuts.

    If that had passed we would have been in the transition period and we would be talking about pasty taxes like the old days.
    Why would the opposition be convinced of the government's argument if their own party was not? Why should they on any case support the government? It's not their job.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 12,564

    Mortimer said:

    The mention of ‘ground game’ reminded me of IOS.

    :smile:



    DavidL said:

    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Superbly amusing first post. Shows great promise. Welcome.
    IOS was right.

    The lack of a ground game turned a landslide into a hung Parliament
    Erhhh....IOS was about and making those claims when Cameron won the GE.
    Was he.

    Time flies

    The Halcyon pre Brexit days when only the disabled and the poor were being targeted rather than the 48% whilst millionaires were getting tax cuts
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 26,737
    Byronic said:

    Boris is doing very well here. Two hours of bravura bluster.

    From what I've seen the Conservative Party has plumbed new depths. Whatever they are now, they are not a conservative party in any meaningful, traditional way.
  • Noo said:

    I would suggest Nicola Sturgeon.

    Hellava shout, and in most ways I agree. What's been really remarkable has been her firm commitment to trying to, in her eyes, save the UK from itself. But she's hurt in reputation in the eyes of the diehard nats who welcome the sheer terrifying stupidity of what's been happening down here. After all, we've been giving Scots all the arguments they could ever need about the sclerosis, the baying cretins in the Commons, and the sinister authoritarian bent of this current Conservative & Unionist Party.
    Some of those who want independence look on gobsmacked that Sturgeon is trying to stop exactly the kind of chaos that /could/ help the nat cause. Certainly that notorious transphobic blogger whose name I will not mention and who represents sadly far too many of that cohort is adamant that Sturgeon is using bad tactics.
    But for me, I think she's playing a magnificent Brexit, and has somehow found herself alone in the moral uplands. But her reputation is certainly up for grabs depending on how urgently and blinkeredly folk want independence.
    Yes Nicola Sturgeon has ignored the obvious boost for Independence which Boris and No Deal represent, and put all her effort into trying to keep the UK from self harm. She has put the larger country, the UK, and the smaller country which is presently bound up in the UK, Scotland, above her narrow party interests.

    This is to be commended and if despite all her efforts the UK leaves with No Deal she can say with a clear conscience she tried to prevent it. This is statesmanship, or perhaps stateswomanship.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 49,363
    GIN1138 said:

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    I thought prorogation for 5 days in order to have a Queens Speech has been allowed by Their Lord and Ladyships?
    But that cannot be what he means because that would not achieve his Brexit plans, which is what he is saying. SInce his plan is either a deal, which requires a vote in parliament, or no deal, a prorogation to acheive it can only possibly mean to enforce no deal.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 20,836
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parliament was elected by the people. Its legitimacy comes from the voters. The Tory party asked for a mandate for a hard Brexit. It was denied it. It did not have a majority and is now a minority government. It needs to try and govern in light of that fact. Instead of which it is behaving as if it had a majority. The fact that it is a minority is somehow seen as a sort of Parliamentary impertinence and not a reflection of the voters' wishes.

    As another girly swot put it:

    "We live in a representative democracy. The House of Commons exists because the people have elected its members. The Government is not directly elected by the people (unlike the position in some other democracies). The Government exists because it has the confidence of the House of Commons. It has no democratic legitimacy other than that. This means that it is accountable to the House of Commons - and indeed to the House of Lords - for its actions, remembering always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts."

    (Para. 55 of the judgment, if anyone's interested.)

    It was elected on a promise to enact Brexit. It has betrayed that promise is now afraidbof facing the electorate. Hence the bizzare spectacle of preventing a General Election and keeping a party with no majority in office and refusing to let it govern.
    First it was not elected, there was a hung parliament. And secondly they promised to enact an orderly Brexit.

    Other than that good post.
    Parliament is elected as a body whether there is a majority or not.
    So you are saying that the SNP were elected on a promise to enact brexit?
    Given they were elected in a platform of independence - which would require Scotland to leave the EU at least temporarily- the answer could conceivably be yes.
    Not 100% sure they would see it like that.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,120

    Symptomatic of their desperation:



    A second prorogation to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny would be struck down far quicker than the first. It is the emptiest of threats. This is a government out of options and, soon, out of office.

    Presumably if it was only 5-6 days that would be fine.

    Regarding the "surrender bill", there is no doubt it is unfair but then were the "dementia tax" and "spare room tax" fair?
    "Surrender" is far more inflammatory language as it is of a piece with the language used by the far-right to justify their terror attacks.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,395
    Oh hallelujah. A goal.
  • Cyclefree said:

    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    He was inflicted on us by 92000 mostly elderly, mostly male Tory members and some Tory MPs without the sense they were born with.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/09/03/the-dangers-of-polite-demagogues/

    "Or Johnson with his messy hair, ill-fitting clothes, classical aphorisms, rather-too-pleased-with-itself wit and carefully crafted bumbling persona. That either of them should be viewed as serious contenders for the highest office suggests a failure to listen to what they say, to see that they mostly talk nonsense, sometimes dangerous, ill thought-out and harmful nonsense. It is a measure of how out of ideas and talent the Tories seem to be that amateurish eccentricity, incompetence in office and Boys Own enthusiasm are even thought of as serious contenders."
    He was born from a parliament who ruthlessly defenestrated and crucified a well meaning honest hard working but ultimately weak woman who had negotiated a deal in good faith and presented it to them for agreement.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 22,374
    edited September 25
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In a Parliamentary democracy trying to run an election on a "People vs Parliament" basis is a dangerous and destructive act.

    This Parliament was elected by the people. Its legitimacy comes from the voters. The Tory party asked for a mandate for a hard Brexit. It was denied it. It did not have a majority and is now a minority government. It needs to try and govern in light of that fact. Instead of which it is behaving as if it had a majority. The fact that it is a minority is somehow seen as a sort of Parliamentary impertinence and not a reflection of the voters' wishes.

    As another girly swot put it:

    "We live in a representative democracy. The House of Commons exists because the people have elected its members. The Government is not directly elected by the people (unlike the position in some other democracies). The Government exists because it has the confidence of the House of Commons. It has no democratic legitimacy other than that. This means that it is accountable to the House of Commons - and indeed to the House of Lords - for its actions, remembering always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts."

    (Para. 55 of the judgment, if anyone's interested.)

    It was elected on a promise to enact Brexit. It has betrayed that promise is now afraidbof facing the electorate. Hence the bizzare spectacle of preventing a General Election and keeping a party with no majority in office and refusing to let it govern.
    First it was not elected, there was a hung parliament. And secondly they promised to enact an orderly Brexit.

    Other than that good post.
    Parliament is elected as a body whether there is a majority or not.
    So you are saying that the SNP were elected on a promise to enact brexit?
    Given they were elected in a platform of independence - which would require Scotland to leave the EU at least temporarily- the answer could conceivably be yes.
    Not 100% sure they would see it like that.
    I'm 100% sure they wouldn't. In the same way that Mark Francois refusing three times to pass legislation that would let us leave the EU doesn't see this makes him a Remainer, although it does.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 11,966
    All those hot takes on here that the Dems were walking into a trap with the Ukraine call are looking pretty weak right now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 49,363
    edited September 25
    TOPPING said:

    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    Labour not whipping to support WA irrespective of ERG nuts.

    If that had passed we would have been in the transition period and we would be talking about pasty taxes like the old days.
    Why would the opposition be convinced of the government's argument if their own party was not? Why should they on any case support the government? It's not their job.
    Ah, the preposterous 'opposition's oppose' fallacy bt a different name, I wondered when it would arise again. No one, not even on the government side, was obliged to follow government policy on this or any other issue. However rare it actually is, it is for each member on each vote to decide what they think is best. In his defence, someone like Corbyn has always understood that and been prepared to vote whichever way he thinks best, rather than his support or opposition being taken for granted.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 8,534

    Pud said:

    Good evening.I detect a similar zeitgeist happening in the Labour party to 2017.One of the effects of conference was to sharpen Labours goals and that process has been entirely positive in developing unity.The love bubble is back.Those outside want in and the love bubble spreads and it's climate change,not Brexit or anything else,that's clearly the no 1 priority-Survation's polling agrees.Will we still be arguing over Brexit when we're all under-water?
    I think Nick Robinson was right to warn his fellow Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn.There is an alternative to the Tories and people like it and agree with it.
    Worth noting in the GE betting.The enthusiam and energy of a good groung game of motivated people can be the deciding factor in a close election.

    Splendid effort Ms Abbott.
    As in tried adding 2 plus 2 and came up with 26?
  • Cyclefree said:

    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    He was inflicted on us by 92000 mostly elderly, mostly male Tory members and some Tory MPs without the sense they were born with.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/09/03/the-dangers-of-polite-demagogues/

    "Or Johnson with his messy hair, ill-fitting clothes, classical aphorisms, rather-too-pleased-with-itself wit and carefully crafted bumbling persona. That either of them should be viewed as serious contenders for the highest office suggests a failure to listen to what they say, to see that they mostly talk nonsense, sometimes dangerous, ill thought-out and harmful nonsense. It is a measure of how out of ideas and talent the Tories seem to be that amateurish eccentricity, incompetence in office and Boys Own enthusiasm are even thought of as serious contenders."
    He was born from a parliament who ruthlessly defenestrated and crucified a well meaning honest hard working but ultimately weak woman who had negotiated a deal in good faith and presented it to them for agreement.
    He was the one who led the ruthless defenestration and crucification! Not because he thought she was wrong, but because he wanted her job and couldnt wait a couple of years.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 2,684
    This parliamentary swithering is just pointless. Every time an opposition MP stands up to hurl the same boring rant at Boris, the viewer is left to think; well then just call an election??

    Labour’s refusal to demand a GE is gonna hurt them.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,750

    Cyclefree said:



    To play devil's advocate for a moment, Johnson's criticism of the Commons is not entirely without merit. The vast bulk of them were elected on manifestos that promised to deliver Brexit (and most of those were also amongst the cohort in the 2015 Parliament that voted to hold a referendum with a Leave option in the first place.) They have then failed to do so and, just as many voters believe that Johnson lied about the real reasons behind the lengthy prorogation, many others doubtless believe that those self-same MPs were and are lying through their teeth about their commitment to deliver Brexit. Both the widespread agitation for a second plebiscite, and the decision of the Liberal Democrats to go outright for revocation (whatever the merits of that position might or might not be,) can only have helped to reinforce this impression.

    The Commons was offered a compromise settlement by Theresa May. It rejected it, did not vote for anything else in its place, the EU27 aren't offering any other alternative form of agreement anyway, and therefore the compelling logic of the Government's position actually holds. Most MPs were re-elected on manifestos that promised to respect the result of the referendum and, if they can't agree to back any form of Withdrawal Agreement, then the only alternative available which respects that promise is Hard Brexit. The current impasse is not, in fact, the product of the policy of the minority Government, but that of the inertia of the majority Opposition: if Parliament won't back the Government then it should sling it out and install an alternative or, if it can't agree on an alternative, it should dissolve itself and allow the people to elect a replacement that might be able to do better.

    Of course, almost everyone's at fault to some degree in this mess. Johnson should arguably have resigned immediately and gone into Opposition when MPs passed the Benn Act against his wishes, and certainly should've done so once they also vetoed their own dissolution.
    Or he could have sought his own mandate when first elected as Tory party leader instead of playing silly games.

    The EU are only not offering an alternative agreement because Britain has not changed its red lines. If it did, an alternative agreement would be available.

    The government is trapped because it has no negotiation strategy at all - none. And the PM has prioritised a date above all else. The mess it is in is largely of its own making. MPs from other parties have also behaved stupidly and irresponsibly. But it is not for the PM to lecture Parliament but for the PM to work within the constraints which the voters have laid down when they voted this Parliament into office.

  • SaltireSaltire Posts: 491

    Byronic said:

    I’m extending my test. Can any PB-er think of any figure, from politics, whose reputation has been enhanced by the Brexit process?

    Try not to be too partisan. It’s boring. If you can’t find anyone in politics you are allowed to trawl the worlds of journalism, law and academe.

    For all that I dislike her politics intensely and am on the polar opposite from her as far as Brexit is concerned, I would suggest Nicola Sturgeon.

    She has been clear that her first and only priority is the people of Scotland. She has represented their views and has been consistent in her opposition to Brexit. The SNP stood by its principles and did not vote for Article 50 and even though she is not in Parliament her influence and control over her party including the Westminster MPs has been very impressive.

    I just wish she was on my side of the argument.

    Oh and Michel Barnier.
    Barnier has so far failed to secure a deal, something I believe A50 requires the EU to do.
    Barnier got a deal with the UK, it is just parliament decided it didn't like what May agreed to.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 36,282
    edited September 25
    Byronic said:

    This parliamentary swithering is just pointless. Every time an opposition MP stands up to hurl the same boring rant at Boris, the viewer is left to think; well then just call an election??

    Labour’s refusal to demand a GE is gonna hurt them.

    I think a lot of the public might now be wishing the SC had just decided the case wasn't justificable to save us from all this. And this is just day one of the unlimited time Test Match.
  • TOPPING said:

    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    Labour not whipping to support WA irrespective of ERG nuts.

    If that had passed we would have been in the transition period and we would be talking about pasty taxes like the old days.
    Why would the opposition be convinced of the government's argument if their own party was not? Why should they on any case support the government? It's not their job.
    Besides- if there had been any risk of MV1/2 going through on predominantly opposition votes, TMay would have been out of No 10 faster than you could say "Graham Brady's postbox".
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,395
    Byronic said:

    This parliamentary swithering is just pointless. Every time an opposition MP stands up to hurl the same boring rant at Boris, the viewer is left to think; well then just call an election??

    Labour’s refusal to demand a GE is gonna hurt them.

    What they need is an election date that cannot be postponed or changed to allow a no deal Brexit to slip through when Parliament is dissolved. Its really not hard to do and it is bewildering that even these incompetents haven't done it yet.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 26,737
    Future historians will find it almost impossible to believe that this man was actually a conservative Attorney General at the time:



    #nolongerconservative
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 20,836
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    Labour not whipping to support WA irrespective of ERG nuts.

    If that had passed we would have been in the transition period and we would be talking about pasty taxes like the old days.
    Why would the opposition be convinced of the government's argument if their own party was not? Why should they on any case support the government? It's not their job.
    Ah, the preposterous 'opposition's oppose' fallacy, I wondered when it would arise again. No one, not even on the government side, was obliged to follow government policy on this or any other issue. However rare it actually is, it is for each member on each vote to decide what they think is best. In his defence, someone like Corbyn has always understood that and been prepared to vote whichever way he thinks best, rather than his support or opposition being taken for granted.
    Nah. Oppositions oppose is not a fallacy. It's what their supporters support them for. Had they voted it through that would have been years more of a Conservative government. Not I'm sure what Labour voters want. Amazingly some might see the end of a Tory government as more important than Brexit.
  • Byronic said:

    This parliamentary swithering is just pointless. Every time an opposition MP stands up to hurl the same boring rant at Boris, the viewer is left to think; well then just call an election??

    Labour’s refusal to demand a GE is gonna hurt them.

    I think a lot of the public might be wishing the SC had just decided it wasn't justificable to save us from all this. And this is just day one of the unlimited time Test Match.
    If it wasnt justiciable the PM would have reprorogued immediately on parliaments return to deliver no deal expressly against the will of parliamentary sovereignty. That would be a coup d'etat.
  • So on November 5th how many people will be wishing for a more successful Guy Fawkes ?
  • Byronic said:

    This parliamentary swithering is just pointless. Every time an opposition MP stands up to hurl the same boring rant at Boris, the viewer is left to think; well then just call an election??

    Labour’s refusal to demand a GE is gonna hurt them.

    I think a lot of the public might be wishing the SC had just decided it wasn't justificable to save us from all this. And this is just day one of the unlimited time Test Match.
    If it wasnt justiciable the PM would have reprorogued immediately on parliaments return to deliver no deal expressly against the will of parliamentary sovereignty. That would be a coup d'etat.
    God you can't even make a joke these days.
  • Cyclefree said:

    tyson said:

    How the fuck did we manage to end up with Boris Johnson?

    Discuss

    He was inflicted on us by 92000 mostly elderly, mostly male Tory members and some Tory MPs without the sense they were born with.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/09/03/the-dangers-of-polite-demagogues/

    "Or Johnson with his messy hair, ill-fitting clothes, classical aphorisms, rather-too-pleased-with-itself wit and carefully crafted bumbling persona. That either of them should be viewed as serious contenders for the highest office suggests a failure to listen to what they say, to see that they mostly talk nonsense, sometimes dangerous, ill thought-out and harmful nonsense. It is a measure of how out of ideas and talent the Tories seem to be that amateurish eccentricity, incompetence in office and Boys Own enthusiasm are even thought of as serious contenders."
    He was born from a parliament who ruthlessly defenestrated and crucified a well meaning honest hard working but ultimately weak woman who had negotiated a deal in good faith and presented it to them for agreement.
    He was the one who led the ruthless defenestration and crucification! Not because he thought she was wrong, but because he wanted her job and couldnt wait a couple of years.
    He did. I’m not denying that. But every MP who refused to back the deal from both sides of the House bear responsibility. Narrow party advantage for some and an outright refusal to accept leave from others.

    How long did May stand at the dispatch box and face laughter and ridicule from ALL sides. She was lampooned from the left, right and middle. For what? Getting an agreement for an orderly withdrawal. Some may not have liked the finer details but Christ alive we now see the results of a compete lack of pragmatism, compromise and consideration for the National interest.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,395
    Oh FFS. This is totally embarrassing.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 3,237
    kle4 said:

    Johnson is making a bad situation even worse because he doesn't care about institutions or the law. Parliament has behaved disgracefully, but his criticism of them not being without merit does not force him to take action to escalate things even further. That's his personal choice, and one taken purely because he is afraid of BXP.

    And Corbyn won't table a motion of no confidence - which would enable MPs to give Johnson the boot - purely because he's afraid that it'll precipitate an election in which he'll go down to another defeat that will break both his grip and that of his faction on the Labour Party.

    The high commands of both Government and Opposition are, in fact, both acting out of political self-interest. I'm shocked, I tell you. Truly shocked.
This discussion has been closed.