Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
They not only bent, they broke the four freedoms apart for the backstop. It was a masterpiece of British diplomacy. A victory for the ages. The impossible was made possible - and all thrown away by the ignorant arrogance of the ERG.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
We should have retained the four freedoms.
Uncontrollable immigration was a significant concern for a lot of people. The government judges that their interests should be taken into account.
Irish there calling for regime change to get their way
Or a change of heart from the current regime. But carry on, please do try to distil as much outrage as you can from this, it's doing us all so much good.
I'm glad it's doing you some good. Any outrage is not enough for the perfidious treachery of the EU. Olive oil, shamrock and fat sausage weirdos.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
They not only bent, they broke the four freedoms apart for the backstop. It was a masterpiece of British diplomacy. A victory for the ages. The impossible was made possible - and all thrown away by the ignorant arrogance of the ERG.
The backstop was a trap. Eternal subjugation and no say in our customs or rules or regulations and no way out.
It is colonialism and despicable and the mask has slipped. The idea it's a triumph is pathetic.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
We should have retained the four freedoms.
Uncontrollable immigration was a significant concern for a lot of people. The government judges that their interests should be taken into account.
No, it judged that consideration ought to overrule all others.
(And, of course, ‘uncontrollable’ was a gross exaggeration.)
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
We should have retained the four freedoms.
Uncontrollable immigration was a significant concern for a lot of people. The government judges that their interests should be taken into account.
No, it judged that consideration ought to overrule all others.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
We should have retained the four freedoms.
Uncontrollable immigration was a significant concern for a lot of people. The government judges that their interests should be taken into account.
So why have they failed to apply the restrictions that are available to them right now?
Funny kind of sham, since it was suggested by the UK side and would have left us with 100% of the economic advantages of being in the EU with 0% of the costs, and having left the CFP, CAP, and all the other things the Eurosceptics always said were the principal reason for leaving.
I mean, really, how utterly bonkers does anyone have to be to think that the EU wanted the backstop as anything other than a fix to the Irish problem?
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except unfortunately staying in the Customs Union is impossible. Membership of the CU requires membership of the EU.
We could be in a CU like Turkey buf that would be disastrous. It is the reason none of the EFTA countries have never joined a CU with the EU.
Feels from the frustration that several pennies have dropped this morning. We have naff all leverage over the EU. We haven't chipped away at their solidarity one iota. We can shout as loud as we want but the Irish border isn't sorting itself. The Good Friday agreement is stronger than our determination to overcome it. Ripping up 40 years of regulation with no destination in place is as 'unclean' as they come. And no-one is coming to save us from ourselves.
The one silver lining, is that Boris is left holding the parcel when the music stops. It's all on him. And so far, he looks like he's playing at being PM rather than living up to the job.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
They not only bent, they broke the four freedoms apart for the backstop. It was a masterpiece of British diplomacy. A victory for the ages. The impossible was made possible - and all thrown away by the ignorant arrogance of the ERG.
The backstop was a trap. Eternal subjugation and no say in our customs or rules or regulations and no way out.
It is colonialism and despicable and the mask has slipped. The idea it's a triumph is pathetic.
The idea that it was colonialism or ‘eternal subjugation’ delusional.
If Number 10 have overspun it then it should be very easy to clear up.
Merkel could very easily come out and say "of course Northern Ireland can leave the customs union, it is afterall a part of the United Kingdom and we respect that, we believe we can get a deal respecting that". Go on then!
Quite. Merkel hasn't denied it, and she won't, because, basically, she said it.
Remainers here need to get a grip and see the EU for what it is. A racket.
Nick Ridley in 1990 on the EMU: "a German racket designed to take over the whole of Europe". He wasn't wrong.
You, as well as @SeanT , @Alanbrooke and others, own property/interests in Continental Europe. At what point do you realise that this isn't an entertaining discussion on the Internet but a real issue that will affect your lives? If the Russians invade/encourage civil unrest in the eastern EU as it has done in so many countries, do you realise how badly that would affect you IRL?
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
It's a tired cliche that deserves to be rammed down the throats of the lying Brexiteers on the hour every hour.
None of us would be any poorer for the lack of your continued presence on this site.
Face up to your wrongdoing. Redemption is within reach. A special place in hell is not inevitable.
The thought of having to share it with you might give pause for thought....
Irish there calling for regime change to get their way
Or a change of heart from the current regime. But carry on, please do try to distil as much outrage as you can from this, it's doing us all so much good.
I'm glad it's doing you some good. Any outrage is not enough for the perfidious treachery of the EU. Olive oil, shamrock and fat sausage weirdos.
An FTA was always an option as the range of possibilities envisioned by the PD. What Boris's proposal lacked was some arrangement that would maintain the international legality of maintaining no border checks between Boris's desired end of transition and the technological border coming to fruition.
If Boris could have included in his proposal some innovative mechanism for achieving that legality, either by maintaining alignment either in total or up to a place where a normal border could be operated, to run until such time as his tech border and FTA could be put into full effect, then his desired end state could have flown.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
They not only bent, they broke the four freedoms apart for the backstop. It was a masterpiece of British diplomacy. A victory for the ages. The impossible was made possible - and all thrown away by the ignorant arrogance of the ERG.
The backstop was a trap. Eternal subjugation and no say in our customs or rules or regulations and no way out.
It is colonialism and despicable and the mask has slipped. The idea it's a triumph is pathetic.
The idea that it was colonialism or ‘eternal subjugation’ delusional.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
We should have retained the four freedoms.
Uncontrollable immigration was a significant concern for a lot of people. The government judges that their interests should be taken into account.
No, it judged that consideration ought to overrule all others.
(And, of course, ‘uncontrollable’ was a gross exaggeration.)
Uncontrollable in the sense we weren’t allowed to restrict it
Funny kind of sham, since it was suggested by the UK side and would have left us with 100% of the economic advantages of being in the EU with 0% of the costs, and having left the CFP, CAP, and all the other things the Eurosceptics always said were the principal reason for leaving.
I mean, really, how utterly bonkers does anyone have to be to think that the EU wanted the backstop as anything other than a fix to the Irish problem?
It was the economic bits without the political bits. It was what they said they wanted.
Now not having the political bits is somehow a problem (despite it being what they wanted), which means we have to do without the economic bit too.
That is a compilation of quotes taken out of context from tv shows.
Heidi Allen’s lies/flakiness that I quoted are not taken out of context, they cannot be misinterpreted, and are from Hustings from the 2017 General Election.
Funny kind of sham, since it was suggested by the UK side and would have left us with 100% of the economic advantages of being in the EU with 0% of the costs, and having left the CFP, CAP, and all the other things the Eurosceptics always said were the principal reason for leaving.
I mean, really, how utterly bonkers does anyone have to be to think that the EU wanted the backstop as anything other than a fix to the Irish problem?
Richard, whilst the lock & bolt you're holding there technically is in full working order No 10's horse has galloped off through 20 furlongs of wheat fields.
Funny kind of sham, since it was suggested by the UK side and would have left us with 100% of the economic advantages of being in the EU with 0% of the costs, and having left the CFP, CAP, and all the other things the Eurosceptics always said were the principal reason for leaving.
I mean, really, how utterly bonkers does anyone have to be to think that the EU wanted the backstop as anything other than a fix to the Irish problem?
Except it wasn't suggested by the UK. It was suggested by the EU and May was dragged their kicking and screaming until her abject humiliation and surrender.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Had the UK remained in the Single Market and Customs Union we would still have had full free movement from the EU, still been subject to European Courts rulings and still been unable to do our own trade deals.
Irish there calling for regime change to get their way
Or a change of heart from the current regime. But carry on, please do try to distil as much outrage as you can from this, it's doing us all so much good.
I'm glad it's doing you some good. Any outrage is not enough for the perfidious treachery of the EU. Olive oil, shamrock and fat sausage weirdos.
I'm a little embarrassed for you right now.
I wouldn't be, I'm having fun. No point clutching at pearls and lifting petticoats. I realise in the super woke world such stereotypes of national identities are terribly awful but on the other hand, I dont care. The EU are taking the piss out of us, I am content to do the same to them.
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
This a a betting site where percentages and probability are understood and dissected to come up with realistic outcomes, so I'm hoping some clever souls with maybe a medical background can help me make sense of some figures..... After breast cancer surgery, where there is no more evidence of cancer in the body, a woman has an 82% chance of surviving 10 years or more without any further treatment. Radiotherapy adds another 5% to that. Hormone treatment adds another 2% to that. Chemotherapy adds another 5% to that. What do these figures really show? The question is, knowing the risks and side effects of chemotherapy, would you decline or accept it in this instance?
When you say "Chemotherapy adds another 5% to that", do you mean "...adds another 5% to the 82%" or "...adds another 5% to the 82+5+2%"?
Discussed very early in the thread. Have a look back. A lot of people who know their stats helped our friend TFS who is understandably worried.
I have looked earlier in the thread and you've confused my point with another point. I wasn't asking if the numbers were additive, I was asking if they were independent. If the chemotherapy number changes if you have had radiotherapy, then that affects the advice
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
Why would they waste the steam of their piss getting involved in a slanging match with a government that has clearly decided to use them to whip up a mob?
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
Why would they waste the steam of their piss getting involved in a slanging match with a government that has clearly decided to use them to whip up a mob?
If it was a misunderstanding it should be possible to clear it up, if it was a lie then it would be possible to deny it.
If it's the truth then the backstop was never in good faith and I told you so.
All the dodgy briefings, all the blaming of foreigners, all the economic pain, the loss of our freedoms, the crashing of the UK's standing, the trashing of our constitution, all of it is for one purpose only: so that Boris Johnson can be PM. Literally nothing else matters to him.
Richard, whilst the lock & bolt you're holding there technically is in full working order No 10's horse has galloped off through 20 furlongs of wheat fields.
Oh, quite. The loons have succeeded in driving the country mad. This won't end well! As I said earlier, those amicable mini-deals aren't looking too likely, are they?
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
Why would they waste the steam of their piss getting involved in a slanging match with a government that has clearly decided to use them to whip up a mob?
If it was a misunderstanding it should be possible to clear it up, if it was a lie then it would be possible to deny it.
If it's the truth then the backstop was never in good faith and I told you so.
I don't think the EU are going to waste any time getting into a slanging match with Boris Johnson. They've mentally consigned him to the holding pen for now.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
The Irish Civil War
It was won by the Free State with the support of the U.K. I suspect the U.K. would have supported Ulster
Free State Army was SF/IRA in large part.
It was Michael Collins, the National Army and the UK
If the government release the full transcript of this conversation and if Merkel did say NI can never leave the customs union, I wonder whether Parliament might repeal the Benn act in the face of this aggression?
I note the Benn act only passed by 28 votes so there wasn't a large majority for it?
All the dodgy briefings, all the blaming of foreigners, all the economic pain, the loss of our freedoms, the crashing of the UK's standing, the trashing of our constitution, all of it is for one purpose only: so that Boris Johnson can be PM. Literally nothing else matters to him.
Thats true. Its blatant and shameless. But further discussions are also pointless, that part is also true
Yeah it's completely unnecessary. It's almost as embarrassing as the idea that we could ever agree to subjugation in the backstop without a unilateral exit or say in the rules we would be subjected to.
The EU hasn't negotiated in good faith. It's no deal or revoke now. Time to pick a side.
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
Why would they waste the steam of their piss getting involved in a slanging match with a government that has clearly decided to use them to whip up a mob?
Just been trawling twitter, and via Twitter, the continental press.
The consensus in Germany and Brussels is that this is true. Indeed, they are surprised at the British surprise. From the German perspective, this is just Merkel bluntly pointing out what has been obvious for a long time, but disguised for the sake of diplomacy.
And the point is good. The special status of NI and the GFA means NI can never leave the CU, unless and until the Irish want that to happen (which again means never, for practical purposes)
Perhaps Mrs Merkel didn't think through the implications for Britain. Her doctrine means the UK ITSELF can never really leave the EU, not without losing a constituent nation of the UK.
But then, it's not Merkel's job to teach British politicians just how much sovereignty they have handed to the EU, in the last four decades.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
The Irish Civil War
It was won by the Free State with the support of the U.K. I suspect the U.K. would have supported Ulster
Free State Army was SF/IRA in large part.
No, Sinn Fein and the IRA were fighting with De Valera and the anti Treaty forces against the pro Treaty forces of the Free State headed by Michael Collins
The Treaty caused a split in the IRA. The Civil War was an SF/IRA civil war.
The Irish name of all flavours of the IRA, pre-Treaty, pro-Treaty, anti-Treaty, Official, Provisional, Continuity, “Real” and “I Can’t Believe It’s Not The” has been “Óglaigh na hÉireann” - “Volunteers of Ireland”. That was also the Irish name of the National Army during the Irish Civil War and remains the name of the Irish Defence Forces today.
They all claim continuity with and descent from the Irish Volunteers of 1913 and the Irish Republican Army that defeated the British in 1921.
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
Why would they waste the steam of their piss getting involved in a slanging match with a government that has clearly decided to use them to whip up a mob?
Why waste all this time on pointless discussions? They clearly don't mind wasting their piss as they are playing for time.
If the government release the the full transcript of this conversation and if Merkel did say the NI can never leave the customs union, I wonder whether Parliament might repeal the Benn act in the face of this aggression?
I note the Benn act only passed by 28 votes so there wasn't a large majority for it?
Not gonna happen. It would require a bunch of MPs to
1 ) admit they were wrong on reading the EU's intentions and
2 ) admit they were now prepared to countenance No Deal.
Irish there calling for regime change to get their way
Or a change of heart from the current regime. But carry on, please do try to distil as much outrage as you can from this, it's doing us all so much good.
I'm glad it's doing you some good. Any outrage is not enough for the perfidious treachery of the EU. Olive oil, shamrock and fat sausage weirdos.
I'm a little embarrassed for you right now.
I wouldn't be, I'm having fun. No point clutching at pearls and lifting petticoats. I realise in the super woke world such stereotypes of national identities are terribly awful but on the other hand, I dont care. The EU are taking the piss out of us, I am content to do the same to them.
Except the stereotypes are broken. It's the British (or more specifically the English) who are ranting & bellowing with snotters all over their quivering upper lips while whipping up populist outrage, while the EU looks on with patrician disdain.
Richard, whilst the lock & bolt you're holding there technically is in full working order No 10's horse has galloped off through 20 furlongs of wheat fields.
Oh, quite. The loons have succeeded in driving the country mad. This won't end well! As I said earlier, those amicable mini-deals aren't looking too likely, are they?
Still likely eventually.
The EU don't take no deal seriously as they don't think Parliament will permit it. Doesn't matter how many Aces you hold in your hand if you tell the opposition in advance you'll fold if they push all in.
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
Why would they waste the steam of their piss getting involved in a slanging match with a government that has clearly decided to use them to whip up a mob?
Just been trawling twitter, and via Twitter, the continental press.
The consensus in Germany and Brussels is that this is true. Indeed, they are surprised at the British surprise. From the German perspective, this is just Merkel bluntly pointing out what has been obvious for a long time, but disguised for the sake of diplomacy.
And the point is good. The special status of NI and the GFA means NI can never leave the CU, unless and until the Irish want that to happen (which again means never, for practical purposes)
Perhaps Mrs Merkel didn't think through the implications for Britain. Her doctrine means the UK ITSELF can never really leave the EU, not without losing a constituent nation of the UK.
But then, it's not Merkel's job to teach British politicians just how much sovereignty they have handed to the EU, in the last four decades.
And there's no pressure on anyone in the EU to negotiate, because the Benn Act has tied the UK government's hands behind its back. Everybody knows this, so this phase is just a phoney war before a GE takes place.
Hardcore Remainers will want to delay and delay for as long as they can because they know delay equals economic uncertainty and hopefully a better case for Remaining.
Remaining, however, would be a hideous state of affairs for the EU. Can you imagine the UK being part of the EU after all of this!?!
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
Why would they waste the steam of their piss getting involved in a slanging match with a government that has clearly decided to use them to whip up a mob?
If it was a misunderstanding it should be possible to clear it up, if it was a lie then it would be possible to deny it.
If it's the truth then the backstop was never in good faith and I told you so.
There is nothing that Merkel can say that will convince those who want the Cummings briefing to be true that it is not true. So there is really no point in engaging.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
We should have retained the four freedoms.
We still should
Personally I agree but in my view it is one of the key reasons why the vote was lost - and would probably be lost again. The UK benefit system is way more generaous than many of the poorer EU countries and there is no political will here to change it. Hence the hostility to FoM.
Am I missing something here? Why are people (pretending to be) outraged by Merkel saying Northern Ireland has to remain in the customs union in order for there to be a deal? Whether you agree with it or not, that's been their position for years.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
They not only bent, they broke the four freedoms apart for the backstop. It was a masterpiece of British diplomacy. A victory for the ages. The impossible was made possible - and all thrown away by the ignorant arrogance of the ERG.
The backstop was a trap. Eternal subjugation and no say in our customs or rules or regulations and no way out.
It is colonialism and despicable and the mask has slipped. The idea it's a triumph is pathetic.
One might say that they were trying to liberate the colony of the Six Counties we have subjugated since 1169, perhaps?
That is a compilation of quotes taken out of context from tv shows.
Heidi Allen’s lies/flakiness that I quoted are not taken out of context, they cannot be misinterpreted, and are from Hustings from the 2017 General Election.
Funny kind of sham, since it was suggested by the UK side and would have left us with 100% of the economic advantages of being in the EU with 0% of the costs, and having left the CFP, CAP, and all the other things the Eurosceptics always said were the principal reason for leaving.
I mean, really, how utterly bonkers does anyone have to be to think that the EU wanted the backstop as anything other than a fix to the Irish problem?
Not bonkers - just gullible and nationalistic. Which well describes a large section of the British public. Hence the Johnson/Cummings strategy for the GE. It is probably going to work, IMO, if they get the 2019 poll.
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
Why would they waste the steam of their piss getting involved in a slanging match with a government that has clearly decided to use them to whip up a mob?
Just been trawling twitter, and via Twitter, the continental press.
The consensus in Germany and Brussels is that this is true. Indeed, they are surprised at the British surprise. From the German perspective, this is just Merkel bluntly pointing out what has been obvious for a long time, but disguised for the sake of diplomacy.
And the point is good. The special status of NI and the GFA means NI can never leave the CU, unless and until the Irish want that to happen (which again means never, for practical purposes)
Perhaps Mrs Merkel didn't think through the implications for Britain. Her doctrine means the UK ITSELF can never really leave the EU, not without losing a constituent nation of the UK.
But then, it's not Merkel's job to teach British politicians just how much sovereignty they have handed to the EU, in the last four decades.
Berlin "doesn't want to get into briefing and counter-briefing", says well known brexiteer (checks notes) Katya Adler.
So yes, it seems Merkel said it. Disastrous statecraft. Prospect of deal vanishingly modest.
That is a compilation of quotes taken out of context from tv shows.
Heidi Allen’s lies/flakiness that I quoted are not taken out of context, they cannot be misinterpreted, and are from Hustings from the 2017 General Election.
Same applies for Sarah Wollaston. These new LibDem MPs were either stupid or liars.
They are welome to them.
Our current Prime Minister wrote two fervently argued articles, one for Leave and one for Remain, on the same day. Our Government is full of people who voted for Theresa May's deal and are now saying that its precepts are wholly unacceptable.
If inconstancy is a capital offence, then Allen and Wollaston will be a long way down the queue.
Yeah it's completely unnecessary. It's almost as embarrassing as the idea that we could ever agree to subjugation in the backstop without a unilateral exit or say in the rules we would be subjected to.
The EU hasn't negotiated in good faith. It's no deal or revoke now. Time to pick a side.
The Irish are serving their revenge cold it seems.
Am I missing something here? Why are people (pretending to be) outraged by Merkel saying Northern Ireland has to remain in the customs union in order for there to be a deal? Whether you agree with it or not, that's been their position for years.
In which case why are people angry at boris claiming she said it?
Confected outrage from no.10 and in response - the actual substance of the discussion seems barely to concern, just how it is being spun about precise wording.
And as we know at PB pedantry.com, when the argument and anger is over precise wording, its probably trivial or bollocks.
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
Why would they waste the steam of their piss getting involved in a slanging match with a government that has clearly decided to use them to whip up a mob?
Just been trawling twitter, and via Twitter, the continental press.
The consensus in Germany and Brussels is that this is true. Indeed, they are surprised at the British surprise. From the German perspective, this is just Merkel bluntly pointing out what has been obvious for a long time, but disguised for the sake of diplomacy.
And the point is good. The special status of NI and the GFA means NI can never leave the CU, unless and until the Irish want that to happen (which again means never, for practical purposes)
Perhaps Mrs Merkel didn't think through the implications for Britain. Her doctrine means the UK ITSELF can never really leave the EU, not without losing a constituent nation of the UK.
But then, it's not Merkel's job to teach British politicians just how much sovereignty they have handed to the EU, in the last four decades.
Berlin "doesn't want to get into briefing and counter-briefing", says well known brexiteer (checks notes) Katya Adler.
So yes, it seems Merkel said it. Disastrous statecraft. Prospect of deal vanishingly modest.
Except, how does it play out if there is no further extension beyond 31st October? All there would be is revoke (capitulation to Germany/EU), No Deal (a majority of MPs have passed a law saying utterly unacceptable) or May's Shit Deal (now acknowledged by Germany as a land grab by the EU)?
Merkel has been foolish (to put it mildly) if reports are correct.
And the ranting response from Tusk indicates those reports may well be true.
The press are going to have a field day and it is going to be increasingly difficult for remainers in parliament not to look like quislings regardless of their true motivations.
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
Why would they waste the steam of their piss getting involved in a slanging match with a government that has clearly decided to use them to whip up a mob?
If it was a misunderstanding it should be possible to clear it up, if it was a lie then it would be possible to deny it.
If it's the truth then the backstop was never in good faith and I told you so.
There is nothing that Merkel can say that will convince those who want the Cummings briefing to be true that it is not true. So there is really no point in engaging.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
They not only bent, they broke the four freedoms apart for the backstop. It was a masterpiece of British diplomacy. A victory for the ages. The impossible was made possible - and all thrown away by the ignorant arrogance of the ERG.
The backstop was a trap. Eternal subjugation and no say in our customs or rules or regulations and no way out.
It is colonialism and despicable and the mask has slipped. The idea it's a triumph is pathetic.
One might say that they were trying to liberate the colony of the Six Counties we have subjugated since 1169, perhaps?
No one could not. The counties are not a colony they are a sovereign part of our country as recognised by international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you want to tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
Merkel has been foolish (to put it mildly) if reports are correct.
And the ranting response from Tusk indicates those reports may well be true.
The press are going to have a field day and it is going to be increasingly difficult for remainers in parliament not to look like quislings regardless of their true motivations.
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
Why would they waste the steam of their piss getting involved in a slanging match with a government that has clearly decided to use them to whip up a mob?
Just been trawling twitter, and via Twitter, the continental press.
The consensus in Germany and Brussels is that this is true. Indeed, they are surprised at the British surprise. From the German perspective, this is just Merkel bluntly pointing out what has been obvious for a long time, but disguised for the sake of diplomacy.
And the point is good. The special status of NI and the GFA means NI can never leave the CU, unless and until the Irish want that to happen (which again means never, for practical purposes)
Perhaps Mrs Merkel didn't think through the implications for Britain. Her doctrine means the UK ITSELF can never really leave the EU, not without losing a constituent nation of the UK.
But then, it's not Merkel's job to teach British politicians just how much sovereignty they have handed to the EU, in the last four decades.
Wasn't it obvious from the Joint Report in December 2017?
That was when Remainers were triumphantly using its logic to argue that (i) the UK had promised NI would stay in Customs Union/Single Market, (ii) the UK had promised the DUP that there would be no divergence between NI and GB, (iii) therefore the whole UK would stay in the single market and customs union.
This was the Joint Report signed up to by a Cabinet before the flounces from Davis and Johnson.
Quite how May managed to get from that starting point to the backstop, dashing all the hopes of Remainers for a soft Brexit, is beyond me, but she's received precious little credit for it.
That is a compilation of quotes taken out of context from tv shows.
Heidi Allen’s lies/flakiness that I quoted are not taken out of context, they cannot be misinterpreted, and are from Hustings from the 2017 General Election.
That is a compilation of quotes taken out of context from tv shows.
Heidi Allen’s lies/flakiness that I quoted are not taken out of context, they cannot be misinterpreted, and are from Hustings from the 2017 General Election.
Merkel has been foolish (to put it mildly) if reports are correct.
And the ranting response from Tusk indicates those reports may well be true.
The press are going to have a field day and it is going to be increasingly difficult for remainers in parliament not to look like quislings regardless of their true motivations.
Very unfortunate for remainers.
Indeed. And also very unfortunate for people who live in the UK and the EU. I made the point above that this is not an arbitrary discussion on the internet but a real-life thing. I wish people would get their head round this.
Merkel has been foolish (to put it mildly) if reports are correct.
And the ranting response from Tusk indicates those reports may well be true.
The press are going to have a field day and it is going to be increasingly difficult for remainers in parliament not to look like quislings regardless of their true motivations.
Very unfortunate for remainers.
"quislings". Christ, the fucking state of you.
You might be getting a bit squeamish. But that is how millions of voters are going to read it.....
If there was a strong Tory Government with a big majority then a Deal along Boris’s lines would already be being done.
Agree and disagree.
Yes, if BJ wins big in a GE he will get an exit Deal done.
But no, it won't be this one. It will be the WA with NI only backstop, possibly time limited. Plus the PD rewritten for a Canada style FTA for GB.
Certainly not No Deal. I'm happier than ever laying that. Needs a majority to do it, but if he gets a majority he does not have to, and thus won't.
I think it depends on the size of the majority. The longer this goes on the more moderates get replaced by ERG types. As that number approaches 50% he ends up needing all the seats to pass something against their opposition.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
Itose alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
They not only bent, they broke the four freedoms apart for the backstop. It was a masterpiece of British diplomacy. A victory for the ages. The impossible was made possible - and all thrown away by the ignorant arrogance of the ERG.
The backstop was a trap. Eternal subjugation and no say in our customs or rules or regulations and no way out.
It is colonialism and despicable and the mask has slipped. The idea it's a triumph is pathetic.
One might say that they were trying to liberate the colony of the Six Counties we have subjugated since 1169, perhaps?
No one could not. The counties are not a colony they are a sovereign part of our country as recognised by international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you want to tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
It would also be a daft line for the EU to take given that France, Spain and the Netherlands all have overseas departments as constituent parts of their nations. With much less generous representation at national level too. But then looking at what the French did to Algeria on the way out they probably felt compelled to acquiesce
That's probably clever politics from them. Boris wants to look like the nice, reasonable chap who did his best but was rebuffed. If they can instead attribute the collapse of the negotiations to his intransigence and bellicosity, then No Deal and its ramifications will hang about Boris's neck like an albatross. Nigel would prefer surrender from Boris, but failing that a disastrous No Deal with Boris as its architect would suffice.
Comments
It is colonialism and despicable and the mask has slipped. The idea it's a triumph is pathetic.
Like all those leading Brexiteers...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY
(And, of course, ‘uncontrollable’ was a gross exaggeration.)
Unlike several leading Leavers!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY
You'd probably need a translator.
To understand Boris.
https://mobile.twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/1181540510751772672
I mean, really, how utterly bonkers does anyone have to be to think that the EU wanted the backstop as anything other than a fix to the Irish problem?
We could be in a CU like Turkey buf that would be disastrous. It is the reason none of the EFTA countries have never joined a CU with the EU.
We have naff all leverage over the EU. We haven't chipped away at their solidarity one iota. We can shout as loud as we want but the Irish border isn't sorting itself. The Good Friday agreement is stronger than our determination to overcome it. Ripping up 40 years of regulation with no destination in place is as 'unclean' as they come. And no-one is coming to save us from ourselves.
The one silver lining, is that Boris is left holding the parcel when the music stops. It's all on him. And so far, he looks like he's playing at being PM rather than living up to the job.
If Boris could have included in his proposal some innovative mechanism for achieving that legality, either by maintaining alignment either in total or up to a place where a normal border could be operated, to run until such time as his tech border and FTA could be put into full effect, then his desired end state could have flown.
Now not having the political bits is somehow a problem (despite it being what they wanted), which means we have to do without the economic bit too.
That is a compilation of quotes taken out of context from tv shows.
Heidi Allen’s lies/flakiness that I quoted are not taken out of context, they cannot be misinterpreted, and are from Hustings from the 2017 General Election.
https://youtu.be/B9yl3_EprVI
It would have been Remain in all but name
And then we get efforts like this:
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1181542541583273985
If it's the truth then the backstop was never in good faith and I told you so.
I note the Benn act only passed by 28 votes so there wasn't a large majority for it?
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1181515644954714114
The EU hasn't negotiated in good faith. It's no deal or revoke now. Time to pick a side.
The consensus in Germany and Brussels is that this is true. Indeed, they are surprised at the British surprise. From the German perspective, this is just Merkel bluntly pointing out what has been obvious for a long time, but disguised for the sake of diplomacy.
And the point is good. The special status of NI and the GFA means NI can never leave the CU, unless and until the Irish want that to happen (which again means never, for practical purposes)
Perhaps Mrs Merkel didn't think through the implications for Britain. Her doctrine means the UK ITSELF can never really leave the EU, not without losing a constituent nation of the UK.
But then, it's not Merkel's job to teach British politicians just how much sovereignty they have handed to the EU, in the last four decades.
They all claim continuity with and descent from the Irish Volunteers of 1913 and the Irish Republican Army that defeated the British in 1921.
Yes, if BJ wins big in a GE he will get an exit Deal done.
But no, it won't be this one. It will be the WA with NI only backstop, possibly time limited. Plus the PD rewritten for a Canada style FTA for GB.
Certainly not No Deal. I'm happier than ever laying that. Needs a majority to do it, but if he gets a majority he does not have to, and thus won't.
1 ) admit they were wrong on reading the EU's intentions and
2 ) admit they were now prepared to countenance No Deal.
No doubt the answer is yes.
The EU don't take no deal seriously as they don't think Parliament will permit it. Doesn't matter how many Aces you hold in your hand if you tell the opposition in advance you'll fold if they push all in.
Hardcore Remainers will want to delay and delay for as long as they can because they know delay equals economic uncertainty and hopefully a better case for Remaining.
Remaining, however, would be a hideous state of affairs for the EU. Can you imagine the UK being part of the EU after all of this!?!
Biggest landslide since 1931?
Merkel = Bayern Munich?
Sorry, not sorry.
They are welome to them.
So yes, it seems Merkel said it. Disastrous statecraft. Prospect of deal vanishingly modest.
If inconstancy is a capital offence, then Allen and Wollaston will be a long way down the queue.
It's subjugation, Jim, but not as we know it.
Confected outrage from no.10 and in response - the actual substance of the discussion seems barely to concern, just how it is being spun about precise wording.
And as we know at PB pedantry.com, when the argument and anger is over precise wording, its probably trivial or bollocks.
And the ranting response from Tusk indicates those reports may well be true.
The press are going to have a field day and it is going to be increasingly difficult for remainers in parliament not to look like quislings regardless of their true motivations.
Very unfortunate for remainers.
Christ, the fucking state of you.
That was when Remainers were triumphantly using its logic to argue that (i) the UK had promised NI would stay in Customs Union/Single Market, (ii) the UK had promised the DUP that there would be no divergence between NI and GB, (iii) therefore the whole UK would stay in the single market and customs union.
This was the Joint Report signed up to by a Cabinet before the flounces from Davis and Johnson.
Quite how May managed to get from that starting point to the backstop, dashing all the hopes of Remainers for a soft Brexit, is beyond me, but she's received precious little credit for it.
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1181542212888416256
Boris = Jurgen Klopp
Labour = Manchester United
Corbyn = OGS
I can't wait for the GE, it is going to be a massacre.