There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
When a decision put to a referendum has been made, you're not supposed to fairly reflect the divisions of the country. You're supposed to abide by the outcome.
Exactly. If that makes referendums a bad idea, so be it. But that's a different argument
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
I think Farage et al should support the best chance of us getting out of the EU, which is Boris and his deal (and was previously May and hers). I really don't understand why he thinks it matters what his view on any deal is.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
So if a PM had agreed to a deal which kept FoM, membership of the SM and CU but outside the political structures of the EU ie formally outside the EU you’d have been fine with that, would you?
Yes, I just said so to WilliamGlenn.
And that would be acceptable but a deal whereby we remained formally within the EU but by a special derogation FoM (and any other aspect of EU membership you object to) permanently ceased to apply to us, would not?
If we could have just opted out of FoM, I doubt I would have voted to Leave... in the referendum that wouldn't have happened
But it's quite possible Brexit doesn't even mean opting out of FoM, in the end.
If we do leave the EU on Oct 31st with Boris's deal, but then stay in the transition for 20 years (in which everything, including immigration, stays the same), would you be happy with that?
Yes, I am aware that Brexit doesn't meant that, but it gives us a lot better chance than staying in.
I accept the policies from the manifesto's of the governments that win elections, even if I disagree with them. An old fashioned view, but there you go.
I seriously don’t think anyone would fume if Sturgeon wore a pair of Saltire earrings, I’m a dripping wet metropolitan liberal, Diehard Remainer, European Federalist, supporter of Irish unification, happy with whatever course the Scots choose kinda guy - and even I have a pair of Union Jack cufflinks I wear occasionally. They were a Christmas present before anyone asks. I prefer my college cufflinks because I’m also a massive elitist and snob.
Just a point. You seem to be using words HYUFD has copyright for !!!!!
One of the most peculiar mental tics of nationalist supporters I've noticed is the complaint that broadcasters, commentators, and the general (English) public enthusiastically claim successful Scottish sportspeople as "British" when they're winning and disown them as "Scottish" when they lose. I have literally never seen an instance of anything so absurdly crass happening, but nevertheless I hear it often, from a variety of sources. Never an example given though. Gotta keep that burning resentment alive somehow I suppose.
Err.....Disagree.
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy.
I have sent emails to three Labour MPs re-earlier discussion. Interested to see whether I receive a reply.
You can't be serious.
If he is serious, having just checked out the discussion in question he’ll be pretty damn lucky if the reply doesn’t involve a summons for a breach of section 27.1 of the Malicious Communications Act.
What would you suggest was malicious about my comments? In no way was I threatening anyone but simply expressing an opinion and relating it to earlier historical events.
If you compared a Labour MP to a Jew voting for Hitler, that certainly comes under ‘grossly offensive’ and likely to cause distress and that is the threshold.
Even that would be legitmate freedom of expression. As it happens, I referred to 'Jewish, Communist or Socialist members of the Reichstag voting for Hitler's March 1933 Enabling Act'. If I receive a leaflet or communication inviting me to support policies which return us to the days of Thatcher, I am likely to be offended - and could claim to suffer serious distress on account of it. Does that mean I can complain to the police?
I seriously don’t think anyone would fume if Sturgeon wore a pair of Saltire earrings, I’m a dripping wet metropolitan liberal, Diehard Remainer, European Federalist, supporter of Irish unification, happy with whatever course the Scots choose kinda guy - and even I have a pair of Union Jack cufflinks I wear occasionally. They were a Christmas present before anyone asks. I prefer my college cufflinks because I’m also a massive elitist and snob.
I have sent emails to three Labour MPs re-earlier discussion. Interested to see whether I receive a reply.
You can't be serious.
If he is serious, having just checked out the discussion in question he’ll be pretty damn lucky if the reply doesn’t involve a summons for a breach of section 27.1 of the Malicious Communications Act.
What would you suggest was malicious about my comments? In no way was I threatening anyone but simply expressing an opinion and relating it to earlier historical events.
If you compared a Labour MP to a Jew voting for Hitler, that certainly comes under ‘grossly offensive’ and likely to cause distress and that is the threshold.
Even that would be legitmate freedom of expression. As it happens, I referred to 'Jewish, Communist or Socialist members of the Reichstag voting for Hitler's March 1933 Enabling Act'. If I receive a leaflet or communication inviting me to support policies which return us to the days of Thatcher, I am likely to be offended - and could claim to suffer serious distress on account of it. Does that mean I can complain to the police?
No, because that is not a direct, studied personal insult with a racist subtext.
You have often crossed lines in the past - your wish for Theresa May to suffer blindness and double amputation springs to mind - but this is beyond bizarre.
What’s even more disturbing is you don’t seem to recognise what you’re doing. And yet as you are very highly intelligent and knowledgeable it is difficult to understand such a blind spot.
Yes, I am aware that Brexit doesn't meant that, but it gives us a lot better chance than staying in.
I accept the policies from the manifesto's of the governments that win elections, even if I disagree with them. An old fashioned view, but there you go.
Hmm. I'm genuinely interested if you'll be happy if we're legally out of the EU, but effectively still governed by EU rules/laws to the same extent that we are now (which will be the situation whilst we're in the transition).
If, at the end of 2020, MPs vote to extend the transition for another two years, because a permanent post-transition deal between the UK and the EU still hasn't been negotiated, would you be OK with that? Or would you think they're again trying to betray the referendum result, even though we'd be legally outside of the EU by that point?
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
Not really, most Remainers have never wanted those things either
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy. Hate?
Wow."
Hate is strong. I try not to hate anyone but I must confess to turning the TV sound down and looking away when Ian Blackford stands up to speak.
Well, Ian Blackford is an oaf. Astonishing how the SNP can have a leader of such calibre in Sturgeon and then such a crashing dullard like Blackford as their Westminster leader.
There is a persuasive argument that Sturgeon is actually a weak, ineffectual and dull leader who shines by comparison with other Scottish politicians.
Mind you, if Blackford cannot shine against Johnson and Corbyn...
I have sent emails to three Labour MPs re-earlier discussion. Interested to see whether I receive a reply.
You can't be serious.
If he is serious, having just checked out the discussion in question he’ll be pretty damn lucky if the reply doesn’t involve a summons for a breach of section 27.1 of the Malicious Communications Act.
What would you suggest was malicious about my comments? In no way was I threatening anyone but simply expressing an opinion and relating it to earlier historical events.
If you compared a Labour MP to a Jew voting for Hitler, that certainly comes under ‘grossly offensive’ and likely to cause distress and that is the threshold.
Even that would be legitmate freedom of expression. As it happens, I referred to 'Jewish, Communist or Socialist members of the Reichstag voting for Hitler's March 1933 Enabling Act'. If I receive a leaflet or communication inviting me to support policies which return us to the days of Thatcher, I am likely to be offended - and could claim to suffer serious distress on account of it. Does that mean I can complain to the police?
Return to the days of the Thatcher government ?
Are you referring to 60% income tax, nationalised utilities and taxpayer subsidised coal mines and car factories ?
Just had "notes" back on my movie script from a couple of top-end professional Hollywood script writers. They are employed by the company wanting to make the movie, just to get their take (and ensure they aren't being idiots in wanting to go ahead). So not inconsiderable trepidation on my part at what they might say...
I quote, from one:
"Overall I think is a wonderful script and in great shape to be made. The characters are vivid, fun and have quirky details that an audience will love.
"Captivating stunning funny opening"
This is a brilliant script. Bravo!"
and from the other:
"This was hilarious.
I am a sucker for a happy ending, especially when there's a funny story line and a romance at the centre of it."
I seriously don’t think anyone would fume if Sturgeon wore a pair of Saltire earrings, I’m a dripping wet metropolitan liberal, Diehard Remainer, European Federalist, supporter of Irish unification, happy with whatever course the Scots choose kinda guy - and even I have a pair of Union Jack cufflinks I wear occasionally. They were a Christmas present before anyone asks. I prefer my college cufflinks because I’m also a massive elitist and snob.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
Not really, most Remainers have never wanted those things either
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy. Hate?
Wow."
Hate is strong. I try not to hate anyone but I must confess to turning the TV sound down and looking away when Ian Blackford stands up to speak.
Well, Ian Blackford is an oaf. Astonishing how the SNP can have a leader of such calibre in Sturgeon and then such a crashing dullard like Blackford as their Westminster leader.
All you keyboard pygmies , crapping yourself about your precious union, when you see real politicians you arseholes know the game is up.
Just had "notes" back on my movie script from a couple of top-end professional Hollywood script writers. They are employed by the company wanting to make the movie, just to get their take (and ensure they aren't being idiots in wanting to go ahead). So not inconsiderable trepidation on my part at what they might say...
I quote, from one:
"Overall I think is a wonderful script and in great shape to be made. The characters are vivid, fun and have quirky details that an audience will love.
"Captivating stunning funny opening"
This is a brilliant script. Bravo!"
and from the other:
"This was hilarious.
I am a sucker for a happy ending, especially when there's a funny story line and a romance at the centre of it."
OT..... Absolutely delighted to see sir muzza has won his first singles title post op.... Fantastic. Not everyone's cuppa but he's a national treasure in scrap towers.
Yes, I am aware that Brexit doesn't meant that, but it gives us a lot better chance than staying in.
I accept the policies from the manifesto's of the governments that win elections, even if I disagree with them. An old fashioned view, but there you go.
Hmm. I'm genuinely interested if you'll be happy if we're legally out of the EU, but effectively still governed by EU rules/laws to the same extent that we are now (which will be the situation whilst we're in the transition).
If, at the end of 2020, MPs vote to extend the transition for another two years, because a permanent post-transition deal between the UK and the EU still hasn't been negotiated, would you be OK with that? Or would you think they're again trying to betray the referendum result, even though we'd be legally outside of the EU by that point?
There is a mechanism within this deal for further extensions and that is upto the government of the day
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
Not really, most Remainers have never wanted those things either
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy. Hate?
Wow."
Hate is strong. I try not to hate anyone but I must confess to turning the TV sound down and looking away when Ian Blackford stands up to speak.
Well, Ian Blackford is an oaf. Astonishing how the SNP can have a leader of such calibre in Sturgeon and then such a crashing dullard like Blackford as their Westminster leader.
There is a persuasive argument that Sturgeon is actually a weak, ineffectual and dull leader who shines by comparison with other Scottish politicians.
Mind you, if Blackford cannot shine against Johnson and Corbyn...
Yes, I am aware that Brexit doesn't meant that, but it gives us a lot better chance than staying in.
I accept the policies from the manifesto's of the governments that win elections, even if I disagree with them. An old fashioned view, but there you go.
Hmm. I'm genuinely interested if you'll be happy if we're legally out of the EU, but effectively still governed by EU rules/laws to the same extent that we are now (which will be the situation whilst we're in the transition).
If, at the end of 2020, MPs vote to extend the transition for another two years, because a permanent post-transition deal between the UK and the EU still hasn't been negotiated, would you be OK with that? Or would you think they're again trying to betray the referendum result, even though we'd be legally outside of the EU by that point?
There is a mechanism within this deal for further extensions and that is upto the government of the day
Yes, but MPs can force the government to use that mechanism. In the same way that they've forced the current government to do things they don't want to do.
Just had "notes" back on my movie script from a couple of top-end professional Hollywood script writers. They are employed by the company wanting to make the movie, just to get their take (and ensure they aren't being idiots in wanting to go ahead). So not inconsiderable trepidation on my part at what they might say...
I quote, from one:
"Overall I think is a wonderful script and in great shape to be made. The characters are vivid, fun and have quirky details that an audience will love.
"Captivating stunning funny opening"
This is a brilliant script. Bravo!"
and from the other:
"This was hilarious.
I am a sucker for a happy ending, especially when there's a funny story line and a romance at the centre of it."
I have sent emails to three Labour MPs re-earlier discussion. Interested to see whether I receive a reply.
You can't be serious.
If he is serious, having just checked out the discussion in question he’ll be pretty damn lucky if the reply doesn’t involve a summons for a breach of section 27.1 of the Malicious Communications Act.
What would you suggest was malicious about my comments? In no way was I threatening anyone but simply expressing an opinion and relating it to earlier historical events.
If you compared a Labour MP to a Jew voting for Hitler, that certainly comes under ‘grossly offensive’ and likely to cause distress and that is the threshold.
Even that would be legitmate freedom of expression. As it happens, I referred to 'Jewish, Communist or Socialist members of the Reichstag voting for Hitler's March 1933 Enabling Act'. If I receive a leaflet or communication inviting me to support policies which return us to the days of Thatcher, I am likely to be offended - and could claim to suffer serious distress on account of it. Does that mean I can complain to the police?
The length of the extension isn’t the key thing it’s whether they say that’s the final one.
Even if they do say "this is absolutely the last extension", how many of the key players are truly going to believe that at this point? So far "if it comes right down to it there'll be another extension, no matter how much effort has been put into selling this as the final immovable deadline" has been the way to bet...
There is a mechanism within this deal for further extensions and that is upto the government of the day
Wouldn't be surprising if that's an area the govt gives ground on this week - some sort of Benn Act for the control of the transition extensions. Works well with the Lab leaver MPs and the Letwin-ites.
There is a mechanism within this deal for further extensions and that is upto the government of the day
Wouldn't be surprising if that's an area the govt gives ground on this week - some sort of Benn Act for the control of the transition extensions. Works well with the Lab leaver MPs and the Letwin-ites.
There is a mechanism within this deal for further extensions and that is upto the government of the day
Wouldn't be surprising if that's an area the govt gives ground on this week - some sort of Benn Act for the control of the transition extensions. Works well with the Lab leaver MPs and the Letwin-ites.
I hope so, and that probably would be enough to get the two groups you mention onside - but the risk is it loses some ERG MPs who still fetishise a "WTO Brexit" at the end of the transition.
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
How many labour mps will be for the deal now and will they be whipped against
Intriguing
Labour might not be averse to a February election.
One of the most peculiar mental tics of nationalist supporters I've noticed is the complaint that broadcasters, commentators, and the general (English) public enthusiastically claim successful Scottish sportspeople as "British" when they're winning and disown them as "Scottish" when they lose. I have literally never seen an instance of anything so absurdly crass happening, but nevertheless I hear it often, from a variety of sources. Never an example given though. Gotta keep that burning resentment alive somehow I suppose.
I think it used to be a thing around the 80's/90's, but then became a bit of a comedy cliche and commentators stopped doing it. Off the top of my head it would cover the Scotland much-hyped campaign in 1978 football World Cup ("We're on the march with Ally's Army, We're going to the Argentine") which were British going out and Scottish coming back. Andy Murray straddles the divide: he used to be British-when-successful in his early career, but as it was a cliche at this point people stopped doing it and in his later career it's used only for humour.
I'm sorry but it's nonsense. I first heard it said in an old Flanders and Swann comedy routine, and they said it about England. They didn't offer any proof either, but that was a skit, not a serious piece of commentary. Nobody can actually point to this happening, ever. If it has happened in broadcast media, highlight the commentator please.
I have sent emails to three Labour MPs re-earlier discussion. Interested to see whether I receive a reply.
You can't be serious.
If he is serious, having just checked out the discussion in question he’ll be pretty damn lucky if the reply doesn’t involve a summons for a breach of section 27.1 of the Malicious Communications Act.
What would you suggest was malicious about my comments? In no way was I threatening anyone but simply expressing an opinion and relating it to earlier historical events.
If you compared a Labour MP to a Jew voting for Hitler, that certainly comes under ‘grossly offensive’ and likely to cause distress and that is the threshold.
Even that would be legitmate freedom of expression. As it happens, I referred to 'Jewish, Communist or Socialist members of the Reichstag voting for Hitler's March 1933 Enabling Act'. If I receive a leaflet or communication inviting me to support policies which return us to the days of Thatcher, I am likely to be offended - and could claim to suffer serious distress on account of it. Does that mean I can complain to the police?
So what do the EU do if parliament votes for a referendum amendment? Say 'tough, you've got one more week'?
Unless there is appetite to put Jeremy Corbyn in as PM for long enough to deliver it, insisting on a Ref2 means GE. Which as things stand probably means Con majority and back to this Deal.
What other choice is there? Remain has to do something in the next few weeks or leave wins. As Saturday shows, deferring the decision in the hope something will come up is a very viable path for them. Probable defeat tomorrow beats certain defeat today.
Leave won. 17.4m votes said so.
Just a case of Remainers getting past the first stage of grief. They've been stuck in the first stage for a while.
Remain MPs won't get past that first stage until they believe victory is impossible.
They've been getting their own way for nigh on half a century - no wonder it's taking time to adapt.
I thought you were talking about the DUP there - they and their forbears have been getting their way in Northern Ireland since at least the 1600s and arguably the 1100s...
The DUPs forebears only arrived in the 1500s
It was the likes of my family that arrived in the 1100s and we were burnt out in 1923
Well my family can trace themselves back to the 11th century when there was the Welsh-Norman invasion. The family name reflects that.
We weren’t burnt out in 1923. I wonder what the difference between our two families might have been?
(Oh and btw my understanding of constitutional law comes from studying political philosophy during my degree, constitutional law as part of law degree and training for the Bar, my time working as a government lawyer and my work in private practice. Not sure what makes you the classroom monitor on this, mind...... )
Well you suggested that quoting Hobbes was “constitutional innovation” so I had reasonable grounds for doubt
I think you must be confusing me with someone else. I have not mentioned Hobbes at all in recent posts - in fact I doubt I ever have - whether as a “constitutional innovation” or otherwise.
I was quoting Hobbes and you replied something like “I see Leavers coming up with more JRM-style constitutional innovations”
I have sent emails to three Labour MPs re-earlier discussion. Interested to see whether I receive a reply.
You can't be serious.
If he is serious, having just checked out the discussion in question he’ll be pretty damn lucky if the reply doesn’t involve a summons for a breach of section 27.1 of the Malicious Communications Act.
What would you suggest was malicious about my comments? In no way was I threatening anyone but simply expressing an opinion and relating it to earlier historical events.
If you compared a Labour MP to a Jew voting for Hitler, that certainly comes under ‘grossly offensive’ and likely to cause distress and that is the threshold.
Even that would be legitmate freedom of expression. As it happens, I referred to 'Jewish, Communist or Socialist members of the Reichstag voting for Hitler's March 1933 Enabling Act'. If I receive a leaflet or communication inviting me to support policies which return us to the days of Thatcher, I am likely to be offended - and could claim to suffer serious distress on account of it. Does that mean I can complain to the police?
To send it to 3 targeted individuals might be considered malicious.
Since the murder of Jo Cox and subsequent hate crimes MPs emails are being very carefully monitored and, in all seriousness, I would be very concerned about the potential consequences of sending such an email.
It's worse than I thought for Senate Republicans and soon they are going to have to vote to save Trump despite all the Crime spilling out of the White House
Yes, I am aware that Brexit doesn't meant that, but it gives us a lot better chance than staying in.
I accept the policies from the manifesto's of the governments that win elections, even if I disagree with them. An old fashioned view, but there you go.
Hmm. I'm genuinely interested if you'll be happy if we're legally out of the EU, but effectively still governed by EU rules/laws to the same extent that we are now (which will be the situation whilst we're in the transition).
If, at the end of 2020, MPs vote to extend the transition for another two years, because a permanent post-transition deal between the UK and the EU still hasn't been negotiated, would you be OK with that? Or would you think they're again trying to betray the referendum result, even though we'd be legally outside of the EU by that point?
There is a mechanism within this deal for further extensions and that is upto the government of the day
Yes, but MPs can force the government to use that mechanism. In the same way that they've forced the current government to do things they don't want to do.
Depends on whether a government has a majority of course
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
Not really, most Remainers have never wanted those things either
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy. Hate?
Wow."
Hate is strong. I try not to hate anyone but I must confess to turning the TV sound down and looking away when Ian Blackford stands up to speak.
Well, Ian Blackford is an oaf. Astonishing how the SNP can have a leader of such calibre in Sturgeon and then such a crashing dullard like Blackford as their Westminster leader.
There is a persuasive argument that Sturgeon is actually a weak, ineffectual and dull leader who shines by comparison with other Scottish politicians.
Mind you, if Blackford cannot shine against Johnson and Corbyn...
Boris was childish but so is this nonsense coming from remainers. The letter was served, Tusk has received it, and is actioning it
Time remainers acted like grown ups as well
You are gaslighting, Big G. It's not childish to point out that Number 10 childishly lied about the manner in which the letter was served.
Is an unsigned letter worth anything? Would you take an unsigned cheque or agree to work to an unsigned contract?
Except it wasn't an unsigned check or contract, it was a letter provided by the UK official representative on behalf of the Prime Minister setting out the position of the UK Parliament. It seemed to satisfy them.
If Benn wanted it signed by the PM, perhaps he should have written it into law.
Along with the blood type.....
You're right, of course. Johnson has completely outsmarted Benn, who must be feeling comprehensively humiliated now.
And the effect of the Benn Act has been....what? To force a Deal (that Remainers don't want)? They aren't exactly toasting Benn's name in European capitals this weekend.....
It’s done exactly what it was supposed to do - allow a day of triumphant Remoaners to crow on Twitter about Johnson sending the letter.
While the vast majority of Tories and Leavers remain fully behind Boris against those smug, triumphant Remaoners....
Weren’t they a punk band ?
Beat on the brat Beat on the brat Beat on the smug, traitorous, Rermoaner brat with a baseball bat (or Spanish riot police truncheon if available)
What did you think of @malcolmg concession on the last thread that there won’t be Scottish independence for at least 40 years?
what bollox, where did I ever say that, it is coming soon t
You said that it was understandable JRM taking his kid to the most significant day in Parliament for at least the next 40 years.
Clearly the approval of the Scottish Independence Act would be even more significant so therefore it can’t be happening in the next 40 years...
I have sent emails to three Labour MPs re-earlier discussion. Interested to see whether I receive a reply.
You can't be serious.
If he is serious, having just checked out the discussion in question he’ll be pretty damn lucky if the reply doesn’t involve a summons for a breach of section 27.1 of the Malicious Communications Act.
What would you suggest was malicious about my comments? In no way was I threatening anyone but simply expressing an opinion and relating it to earlier historical events.
If you compared a Labour MP to a Jew voting for Hitler, that certainly comes under ‘grossly offensive’ and likely to cause distress and that is the threshold.
Even that would be legitmate freedom of expression. As it happens, I referred to 'Jewish, Communist or Socialist members of the Reichstag voting for Hitler's March 1933 Enabling Act'. If I receive a leaflet or communication inviting me to support policies which return us to the days of Thatcher, I am likely to be offended - and could claim to suffer serious distress on account of it. Does that mean I can complain to the police?
No, because that is not a direct, studied personal insult with a racist subtext.
You have often crossed lines in the past - your wish for Theresa May to suffer blindness and double amputation springs to mind - but this is beyond bizarre.
What’s even more disturbing is you don’t seem to recognise what you’re doing. And yet as you are very highly intelligent and knowledgeable it is difficult to understand such a blind spot.
I did couch my message in terms of 'Any Labour MP' rather than 'You'.
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
How many labour mps will be for the deal now and will they be whipped against
Intriguing
Labour might not be averse to a February election.
No chance of holding a second referendum by then though.....
Boris was childish but so is this nonsense coming from remainers. The letter was served, Tusk has received it, and is actioning it
Time remainers acted like grown ups as well
You are gaslighting, Big G. It's not childish to point out that Number 10 childishly lied about the manner in which the letter was served.
Is an unsigned letter worth anything? Would you take an unsigned cheque or agree to work to an unsigned contract?
Except it wasn't an unsigned check or contract, it was a letter provided by the UK official representative on behalf of the Prime Minister setting out the position of the UK Parliament. It seemed to satisfy them.
If Benn wanted it signed by the PM, perhaps he should have written it into law.
Along with the blood type.....
You're right, of course. Johnson has completely outsmarted Benn, who must be feeling comprehensively humiliated now.
And the effect of the Benn Act has been....what? To force a Deal (that Remainers don't want)? They aren't exactly toasting Benn's name in European capitals this weekend.....
It’s done exactly what it was supposed to do - allow a day of triumphant Remoaners to crow on Twitter about Johnson sending the letter.
While the vast majority of Tories and Leavers remain fully behind Boris against those smug, triumphant Remaoners....
Weren’t they a punk band ?
Beat on the brat Beat on the brat Beat on the smug, traitorous, Rermoaner brat with a baseball bat (or Spanish riot police truncheon if available)
What did you think of @malcolmg concession on the last thread that there won’t be Scottish independence for at least 40 years?
what bollox, where did I ever say that, it is coming soon t
You said that it was understandable JRM taking his kid to the most significant day in Parliament for at least the next 40 years.
Clearly the approval of the Scottish Independence Act would be even more significant so therefore it can’t be happening in the next 40 years...
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
That's a no brainer. They go for a GE - many will fear they will be defeated, badly, but they feared that before too and still went for it. This time it is Brexit happens, or they risk defeat and Brexit happens, or maybe they can do better than they fear.
So what do the EU do if parliament votes for a referendum amendment? Say 'tough, you've got one more week'?
Unless there is appetite to put Jeremy Corbyn in as PM for long enough to deliver it, insisting on a Ref2 means GE. Which as things stand probably means Con majority and back to this Deal.
What other choice is there? Remain has to do something in the next few weeks or leave wins. As Saturday shows, deferring the decision in the hope something will come up is a very viable path for them. Probable defeat tomorrow beats certain defeat today.
Leave won. 17.4m votes said so.
Just a case of Remainers getting past the first stage of grief. They've been stuck in the first stage for a while.
Remain MPs won't get past that first stage until they believe victory is impossible.
They've been getting their own way for nigh on half a century - no wonder it's taking time to adapt.
I thought you were talking about the DUP there - they and their forbears have been getting their way in Northern Ireland since at least the 1600s and arguably the 1100s...
The DUPs forebears only arrived in the 1500s
It was the likes of my family that arrived in the 1100s and we were burnt out in 1923
Well my family can trace themselves back to the 11th century when there was the Welsh-Norman invasion. The family name reflects that.
We weren’t burnt out in 1923. I wonder what the difference between our two families might have been?
We were very well regarded by the local population (check out the Princess of Connemara as an example).
But we were unionists and some people felt that we had no place in their vision of Ireland
“Some people”
You mean the people (the majority of the population) who wanted their independence from a remote overbearing ruler who did not take their interests into account.
Those people?
😏
We weren’t remote - lived in Galway and Connemara and had no English interests (we were Tribesman).
In political terms our big campaigns were Catholic Emancipation, animal cruelty and slavery in which the family played a significant, leading and supporting role specifically.
Admittedly only the first was directly related to the Irish but the other were good things as well.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
Not really, most Remainers have never wanted those things either
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy. Hate?
Wow."
Hate is strong. I try not to hate anyone but I must confess to turning the TV sound down and looking away when Ian Blackford stands up to speak.
Well, Ian Blackford is an oaf. Astonishing how the SNP can have a leader of such calibre in Sturgeon and then such a crashing dullard like Blackford as their Westminster leader.
There is a persuasive argument that Sturgeon is actually a weak, ineffectual and dull leader who shines by comparison with other Scottish politicians.
Mind you, if Blackford cannot shine against Johnson and Corbyn...
ydoethur , not like you to talk shit.
Unless it is about Gove.
I have never once talked shit about Gove.
Whenever I talk about him, I am however talking about an utter shit...
I have sent emails to three Labour MPs re-earlier discussion. Interested to see whether I receive a reply.
You can't be serious.
If he is serious, having just checked out the discussion in question he’ll be pretty damn lucky if the reply doesn’t involve a summons for a breach of section 27.1 of the Malicious Communications Act.
What would you suggest was malicious about my comments? In no way was I threatening anyone but simply expressing an opinion and relating it to earlier historical events.
If you compared a Labour MP to a Jew voting for Hitler, that certainly comes under ‘grossly offensive’ and likely to cause distress and that is the threshold.
Even that would be legitmate freedom of expression. As it happens, I referred to 'Jewish, Communist or Socialist members of the Reichstag voting for Hitler's March 1933 Enabling Act'. If I receive a leaflet or communication inviting me to support policies which return us to the days of Thatcher, I am likely to be offended - and could claim to suffer serious distress on account of it. Does that mean I can complain to the police?
No, because that is not a direct, studied personal insult with a racist subtext.
You have often crossed lines in the past - your wish for Theresa May to suffer blindness and double amputation springs to mind - but this is beyond bizarre.
What’s even more disturbing is you don’t seem to recognise what you’re doing. And yet as you are very highly intelligent and knowledgeable it is difficult to understand such a blind spot.
I did couch my message in terms of 'Any Labour MP' rather than 'You'.
Since they are Labour MPs that doesn’t make much difference, does it?
Seriously? You think 'people' (these undisclosed Englander unionist Scotland-hater types) would object if Nicola Sturgeon wore some Saltire earrings? I'd be more astonished if she doesn't have a pair and wear them regularly. I am sure she at least has a pin badge, and why not? It's really necessary for you to imagine at least that majority of English people hate displays of Scottishness isn't it? Sorry but we really don't.
Yes, I am aware that Brexit doesn't meant that, but it gives us a lot better chance than staying in.
I accept the policies from the manifesto's of the governments that win elections, even if I disagree with them. An old fashioned view, but there you go.
Hmm. I'm genuinely interested if you'll be happy if we're legally out of the EU, but effectively still governed by EU rules/laws to the same extent that we are now (which will be the situation whilst we're in the transition).
If, at the end of 2020, MPs vote to extend the transition for another two years, because a permanent post-transition deal between the UK and the EU still hasn't been negotiated, would you be OK with that? Or would you think they're again trying to betray the referendum result, even though we'd be legally outside of the EU by that point?
If you will excuse me answering what I think is a very interesting question.
I would say that the idea we could stay in the transition for years on end with extensions every couple of years is politically and practically unsustainable for both the UK and the EU.
So whilst I can see perhaps one extension I think that would be it. Moreover never ending extensions would really be predicated on a hung Parliament where no party is able to get a majority for a trade deal. Again I don't think that is realistic in the medium term
But with all that said, I was one of those, along with people like Robert Smithson who believed Brexit should be a long, considered process. So the idea of extending the transition period to sort out the nuts and bolts of a subsequent FTA would not concern me. I am confident it would not be possible for it to be used as a means of never actually leaving because we would officially have left and would no longer be part of the main structures making up the EU.
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
That's a no brainer. They go for a GE - many will fear they will be defeated, badly, but they feared that before too and still went for it. This time it is Brexit happens, or they risk defeat and Brexit happens, or maybe they can do better than they fear.
An easy choice.
Excellent as far as I am concerned.
Not because I get carried away like HYUFD that Boris will gain a landslide, which he wont, but so many mps do not have a mandate from their constituents and need to be elected properly
Boris was childish but so is this nonsense coming from remainers. The letter was served, Tusk has received it, and is actioning it
Time remainers acted like grown ups as well
You are gaslighting, Big G. It's not childish to point out that Number 10 childishly lied about the manner in which the letter was served.
Is an unsigned letter worth anything? Would you take an unsigned cheque or agree to work to an unsigned contract?
Except it wasn't an unsigned check or contract, it was a letter provided by the UK official representative on behalf of the Prime Minister setting out the position of the UK Parliament. It seemed to satisfy them.
If Benn wanted it signed by the PM, perhaps he should have written it into law.
Along with the blood type.....
You're right, of course. Johnson has completely outsmarted Benn, who must be feeling comprehensively humiliated now.
And the effect of the Benn Act has been....what? To force a Deal (that Remainers don't want)? They aren't exactly toasting Benn's name in European capitals this weekend.....
It’s done exactly what it was supposed to do - allow a day of triumphant Remoaners to crow on Twitter about Johnson sending the letter.
While the vast majority of Tories and Leavers remain fully behind Boris against those smug, triumphant Remaoners....
Weren’t they a punk band ?
Beat on the brat Beat on the brat Beat on the smug, traitorous, Rermoaner brat with a baseball bat (or Spanish riot police truncheon if available)
What did you think of @malcolmg concession on the last thread that there won’t be Scottish independence for at least 40 years?
what bollox, where did I ever say that, it is coming soon t
You said that it was understandable JRM taking his kid to the most significant day in Parliament for at least the next 40 years.
Clearly the approval of the Scottish Independence Act would be even more significant so therefore it can’t be happening in the next 40 years...
Come on Charles that is pushing the envelope a bit. Malc made a perfectly reasonable comment which really doesn't deserve to be twisted in that way to score cheap points. You are better than that.
Second night in Barca. Visited the ornate Sagrada Familia basilica, the Olympic Stadium, Catalan Art Museum. No demonstrators in any of those neighbourhoods so far. Ubergeekery wise, so far done Metro line L9 from Aeroport T2 to Collblanc, L5 from Badal to Sagrada Familia, L3 from Diagonal to Parallel and the funicular from there to Montjuic. Are you kids still arguing about Brexit?😂
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
Not really, most Remainers have never wanted those things either
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy. Hate?
Wow."
Hate is strong. I try not to hate anyone but I must confess to turning the TV sound down and looking away when Ian Blackford stands up to speak.
Well, Ian Blackford is an oaf. Astonishing how the SNP can have a leader of such calibre in Sturgeon and then such a crashing dullard like Blackford as their Westminster leader.
There is a persuasive argument that Sturgeon is actually a weak, ineffectual and dull leader who shines by comparison with other Scottish politicians.
Mind you, if Blackford cannot shine against Johnson and Corbyn...
The Nicola personality cult was never convincing. But in her favour she is a relatively normal human being, who isn't egregiously dishonest, stupid or unpleasant. If they asked central casting to find someone to represent Middle Scotland, they would turn up Ms Sturgeon. For a politician that has to be good place to be.
I understand the second point but the first one seems weird. The vote as passed is a very specific point which completely negated the original motion. If Bercow says it cannot be brought back tomorrow citing the rules on the same motion in the same session, then how can the Government bring back the motion at the end of the legislation? In which case there can be no meaningful vote.
Wouldn’t say that’s a huge problem to be honest. They’re bringing the vote tomorrow, in my view, because they very much expect Bercow to kick it out and they can continue the remainer parliament narrative.
It is going to come down to a showdown on the votes later in the week. Second reading will be the biggie and then we’ll see where we get to with the tussle on amendments. But tomorrow? Nah.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
Not really, most Remainers have never wanted those things either
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy. Hate?
Wow."
Hate is strong. I try not to hate anyone but I must confess to turning the TV sound down and looking away when Ian Blackford stands up to speak.
Well, Ian Blackford is an oaf. Astonishing how the SNP can have a leader of such calibre in Sturgeon and then such a crashing dullard like Blackford as their Westminster leader.
There is a persuasive argument that Sturgeon is actually a weak, ineffectual and dull leader who shines by comparison with other Scottish politicians.
Mind you, if Blackford cannot shine against Johnson and Corbyn...
The Nicola personality cult was never convincing. But in her favour she is a relatively normal human being, who isn't egregiously dishonest, stupid or unpleasant. If they asked central casting to find someone to represent Middle Scotland, they would turn up Ms Sturgeon. For a politician that has to be good place to be.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
Wouldn’t say that’s a huge problem to be honest. They’re bringing the vote tomorrow, in my view, because they very much expect Bercow to kick it out and they can continue the remainer parliament narrative.
It is going to come down to a showdown on the votes later in the week. Second reading will be the biggie and then we’ll see where we get to with the tussle on amendments. But tomorrow? Nah.
Also - will the Programme motion for the WAIB be approved?
I understand the second point but the first one seems weird. The vote as passed is a very specific point which completely negated the original motion. If Bercow says it cannot be brought back tomorrow citing the rules on the same motion in the same session, then how can the Government bring back the motion at the end of the legislation? In which case there can be no meaningful vote.
But surely that is what the Commons agreed to yesterday - ie'withold approval until..'
We were very well regarded by the local population
We gave most of our land to the tenants - the theory was we didn’t have the cash to save them but at least they could die on their own land.
... it makes sense in an Irish context ..,
And how - exactly - was that land acquired and from whom?
Mostly through purchase or marriage over the years. We were lawyers and merchants not warriors.
You need to explain - not to me - the context. You see no-one was purchasing land in the 11th century.
And later the native Catholics were not allowed to own any land, were forced into being tenants (at best) and dependant on the charity or not of those who lorded it over them. Your family's peaceful purchases were made possible by the fighting of others and the deprivation by others of their country and means of earning a living.
British rule in Ireland and British treatment of the Irish was not in any sense benevolent. However nice your family may have been it benefited from a political and economic structure which prioritised its interests above others in Ireland and which made possible its comfortable lifestyle. What happened during the 1920’s did not come out of nowhere.
Wouldn’t say that’s a huge problem to be honest. They’re bringing the vote tomorrow, in my view, because they very much expect Bercow to kick it out and they can continue the remainer parliament narrative.
It is going to come down to a showdown on the votes later in the week. Second reading will be the biggie and then we’ll see where we get to with the tussle on amendments. But tomorrow? Nah.
Wouldn’t say that’s a huge problem to be honest. They’re bringing the vote tomorrow, in my view, because they very much expect Bercow to kick it out and they can continue the remainer parliament narrative.
It is going to come down to a showdown on the votes later in the week. Second reading will be the biggie and then we’ll see where we get to with the tussle on amendments. But tomorrow? Nah.
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
That's a no brainer. They go for a GE - many will fear they will be defeated, badly, but they feared that before too and still went for it. This time it is Brexit happens, or they risk defeat and Brexit happens, or maybe they can do better than they fear.
An easy choice.
Excellent as far as I am concerned.
Not because I get carried away like HYUFD that Boris will gain a landslide, which he wont, but so many mps do not have a mandate from their constituents and need to be elected properly Also not an easy choice for one Jeremy Corbyn
Corbyn would best allow the deal to pass. That would enable the GE campaign to focus away from the principle of Brexit and towards post-Brexit policy and non-Brexit matters. A platform advocating alignment with the single market would have better prospects than one of renegotaite Brexit, have a referendum in which Labour campaigns against its own deal.
Has Rupert Harrison got a seat to contest yet? He’s very impressive.
He is a former Osborne SPAD and Brexit sceptic so I doubt it, though he might have a chance in Cities of London and Westminster now Mark Field is stepping down if he fancies taking on Chuka
I think Chukka has a good chance of taking that seat now. Incumbency is worth several thousand votes, maybe Field can see the writing on the wall...
Indeed, I think Chuka could win it with Labour tactical votes and it is strongly Remain.
If Harrison does not get selected there though he will find in most Tory associations at the moment if they have a choice between a pro Boris and pro Brexit dustman and a diehard Remainer with an Oxbridge PhD and high flying career, they will pick the dustman given their current mood
Rupert isn’t a die hard Remainer (I know him quite well as he chairs a board I sit on)
Classic Charles.
Interesting question
@hyufd made an incorrect statement about someone I know so I corrected him
I could have just corrected him, but chose to provide substance to my comment by explaining how I knew.
I think that is helpful to the site rather than boasting, but I’m happy not to validate or source in future if people would prefer that
It is going to come down to a showdown on the votes later in the week. Second reading will be the biggie and then we’ll see where we get to with the tussle on amendments. But tomorrow? Nah.
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
Wouldn’t say that’s a huge problem to be honest. They’re bringing the vote tomorrow, in my view, because they very much expect Bercow to kick it out and they can continue the remainer parliament narrative.
It is going to come down to a showdown on the votes later in the week. Second reading will be the biggie and then we’ll see where we get to with the tussle on amendments. But tomorrow? Nah.
Also - will the Programme motion for the WAIB be approved?
They are going to vote down a motion for the bill to even be debated? Their only goal is to obstruct Brexit at this point.
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
another_richard claims the numbers in the agricultural sector have never been higher. It would be interesting to have some stats on this.
Wouldn’t say that’s a huge problem to be honest. They’re bringing the vote tomorrow, in my view, because they very much expect Bercow to kick it out and they can continue the remainer parliament narrative.
It is going to come down to a showdown on the votes later in the week. Second reading will be the biggie and then we’ll see where we get to with the tussle on amendments. But tomorrow? Nah.
Lewis Goodall is left leaning and paints anything brexit and HMG in the worst possible light
Listening to him tonight he was at his worst doom and gloom for Boris and using this Feb 2020 date as if it is curtains for the deal
A little balance from him would be good and it is strinking that following his rant I turned to BBC, whose correspondent said that an extension may well be granted, either techical, for a GE or a referendum, but the leaders have not considered it and will not until after this week. Furthermore the EU leaders summit required for this decision has not even been provisionally considered and it will take time for all 27 leaders to come together
So clearly lots of rumours and disinformation and wiser heads would just step back a bit and be more measured as was the BBC and not Goodall
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
Apple pickers are the 'more marketable immigrants' ???
Apple pickers ???
Who needs doctors or scientists or engineers when you can have an economy based on apple pickers.
It is going to come down to a showdown on the votes later in the week. Second reading will be the biggie and then we’ll see where we get to with the tussle on amendments. But tomorrow? Nah.
Seems like an obvious loss for the goverment - an extension beyond 31 Oct has already been asked for, its only Boris who is committed politically to that date, and for everyone else either they really do want time to scrutinise the legislation, and it's not unreasonable to think that might take at least 2 weeks, and the others want to drag it out and humilate Boris/chip away at the labour rebels and ex-cons through various amendments.
They are going to vote down a motion for the bill to even be debated? Their only goal is to obstruct Brexit at this point.
No
They might amend the motion.
Their goal is to restrict the options of a PM who keeps losing votes, and increasing the numbers willing to vote against him
The tweet said that they would remove the bill from the order paper this week. What possible reason is there for delaying the start of debate on it? I could understand increasing the length of time to debate it, but not delaying the start.
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
Apple pickers are the 'more marketable immigrants' ???
Apple pickers ???
Who needs doctors or scientists or engineers when you can have an economy based on apple pickers.
Yeah, having another stab at the motion is pointless. They should just start the process of getting the bill passed, and have a vote on the motion after that is concluded (if it's even necessary).
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
another_richard claims the numbers in the agricultural sector have never been higher. It would be interesting to have some stats on this.
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
Apple pickers are the 'more marketable immigrants' ???
Apple pickers ???
Who needs doctors or scientists or engineers when you can have an economy based on apple pickers.
Both main parties are devising policy on the basis that money grows on trees, so that would be in keeping.
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
Apple pickers are the 'more marketable immigrants' ???
Apple pickers ???
Who needs doctors or scientists or engineers when you can have an economy based on apple pickers.
Sigh.
If you grow apples for a business, pickers are kind of important.
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
Apple pickers are the 'more marketable immigrants' ???
Apple pickers ???
Who needs doctors or scientists or engineers when you can have an economy based on apple pickers.
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
another_richard claims the numbers in the agricultural sector have never been higher. It would be interesting to have some stats on this.
Not quite - I said the number employed in the agricultural sector is higher now than it was before the referendum.
If you go back to the 1990s and earlier then agricultural employment would have been higher than now and with I imagine very few immigrants.
But the law of supply and demand applies to agricultural workers as it does to every other sector of the economy at every other time.
A business which offers fair pay and conditions will get employees while a business which doesn't will struggle to do so.
Why anyone should have any sympathy for businesses which don't offer fair pay and conditions is beyond me especially when the business is already operating in a low paid sector.
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
Apple pickers are the 'more marketable immigrants' ???
Apple pickers ???
Who needs doctors or scientists or engineers when you can have an economy based on apple pickers.
Wouldn’t say that’s a huge problem to be honest. They’re bringing the vote tomorrow, in my view, because they very much expect Bercow to kick it out and they can continue the remainer parliament narrative.
It is going to come down to a showdown on the votes later in the week. Second reading will be the biggie and then we’ll see where we get to with the tussle on amendments. But tomorrow? Nah.
Also - will the Programme motion for the WAIB be approved?
They are going to vote down a motion for the bill to even be debated? Their only goal is to obstruct Brexit at this point.
No - they will simply wantt a more extended time to debate it rather than agreeing to have it rushed through over a few days.
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
Apple pickers are the 'more marketable immigrants' ???
Apple pickers ???
Who needs doctors or scientists or engineers when you can have an economy based on apple pickers.
Wouldn’t say that’s a huge problem to be honest. They’re bringing the vote tomorrow, in my view, because they very much expect Bercow to kick it out and they can continue the remainer parliament narrative.
It is going to come down to a showdown on the votes later in the week. Second reading will be the biggie and then we’ll see where we get to with the tussle on amendments. But tomorrow? Nah.
Also - will the Programme motion for the WAIB be approved?
They are going to vote down a motion for the bill to even be debated? Their only goal is to obstruct Brexit at this point.
No - they will simply wantt a more extended time to debate it rather than agreeing to have it rushed through over a few days.
Then why are they trying to delay the introduction of the bill? (for context, see the tweet upthread about pushing the bill until next week)
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
Apple pickers are the 'more marketable immigrants' ???
Apple pickers ???
Who needs doctors or scientists or engineers when you can have an economy based on apple pickers.
Yes, quite bizarre!
I'm sure they felt really warm and fuzzy before, but being horse-whipped by Farmer Giles just isn't the same now that the BREXIT BIGGOTS HAVE TRIUMPHED.
Boris was childish but so is this nonsense coming from remainers. The letter was served, Tusk has received it, and is actioning it
Time remainers acted like grown ups as well
You are gaslighting, Big G. It's not childish to point out that Number 10 childishly lied about the manner in which the letter was served.
Is an unsigned letter worth anything? Would you take an unsigned cheque or agree to work to an unsigned contract?
Except it wasn't an unsigned check or contract, it was a letter provided by the UK official representative on behalf of the Prime Minister setting out the position of the UK Parliament. It seemed to satisfy them.
If Benn wanted it signed by the PM, perhaps he should have written it into law.
Along with the blood type.....
You're right, of course. Johnson has completely outsmarted Benn, who must be feeling comprehensively humiliated now.
And the effect of the Benn Act has been....what? To force a Deal (that Remainers don't want)? They aren't exactly toasting Benn's name in European capitals this weekend.....
It’s done exactly what it was supposed to do - allow a day of triumphant Remoaners to crow on Twitter about Johnson sending the letter.
While the vast majority of Tories and Leavers remain fully behind Boris against those smug, triumphant Remaoners....
Weren’t they a punk band ?
Beat on the brat Beat on the brat Beat on the smug, traitorous, Rermoaner brat with a baseball bat (or Spanish riot police truncheon if available)
What did you think of @malcolmg concession on the last thread that there won’t be Scottish independence for at least 40 years?
what bollox, where did I ever say that, it is coming soon t
You said that it was understandable JRM taking his kid to the most significant day in Parliament for at least the next 40 years.
Clearly the approval of the Scottish Independence Act would be even more significant so therefore it can’t be happening in the next 40 years...
LOL, so a figment of imagination
I agree. There will be no Scottish Independence Act. A figment of my imagination.
Comments
I accept the policies from the manifesto's of the governments that win elections, even if I disagree with them. An old fashioned view, but there you go.
You have often crossed lines in the past - your wish for Theresa May to suffer blindness and double amputation springs to mind - but this is beyond bizarre.
What’s even more disturbing is you don’t seem to recognise what you’re doing. And yet as you are very highly intelligent and knowledgeable it is difficult to understand such a blind spot.
If, at the end of 2020, MPs vote to extend the transition for another two years, because a permanent post-transition deal between the UK and the EU still hasn't been negotiated, would you be OK with that? Or would you think they're again trying to betray the referendum result, even though we'd be legally outside of the EU by that point?
Are you referring to 60% income tax, nationalised utilities and taxpayer subsidised coal mines and car factories ?
Wow, just wow
Everything positive is not because of Brexit because we haven't left yet.
Remainer logic innit.
Since the murder of Jo Cox and subsequent hate crimes MPs emails are being very carefully monitored and, in all seriousness, I would be very concerned about the potential consequences of sending such an email.
https://twitter.com/HotlineJosh/status/1185891198696939520?s=19
Clearly the approval of the Scottish Independence Act would be even more significant so therefore it can’t be happening in the next 40 years...
An easy choice.
In political terms our big campaigns were Catholic Emancipation, animal cruelty and slavery in which the family played a significant, leading and supporting role specifically.
Admittedly only the first was directly related to the Irish but the other were good things as well.
I imagined it.
There would be none. Zip. Nada. Nothing. Null.
Whenever I talk about him, I am however talking about an utter shit...
I would say that the idea we could stay in the transition for years on end with extensions every couple of years is politically and practically unsustainable for both the UK and the EU.
So whilst I can see perhaps one extension I think that would be it. Moreover never ending extensions would really be predicated on a hung Parliament where no party is able to get a majority for a trade deal. Again I don't think that is realistic in the medium term
But with all that said, I was one of those, along with people like Robert Smithson who believed Brexit should be a long, considered process. So the idea of extending the transition period to sort out the nuts and bolts of a subsequent FTA would not concern me. I am confident it would not be possible for it to be used as a means of never actually leaving because we would officially have left and would no longer be part of the main structures making up the EU.
Not because I get carried away like HYUFD that Boris will gain a landslide, which he wont, but so many mps do not have a mandate from their constituents and need to be elected properly
Also not an easy choice for one Jeremy Corbyn
Do you ever have contact with the real world ?
It is going to come down to a showdown on the votes later in the week. Second reading will be the biggie and then we’ll see where we get to with the tussle on amendments. But tomorrow? Nah.
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
And later the native Catholics were not allowed to own any land, were forced into being tenants (at best) and dependant on the charity or not of those who lorded it over them. Your family's peaceful purchases were made possible by the fighting of others and the deprivation by others of their country and means of earning a living.
British rule in Ireland and British treatment of the Irish was not in any sense benevolent. However nice your family may have been it benefited from a political and economic structure which prioritised its interests above others in Ireland and which made possible its comfortable lifestyle. What happened during the 1920’s did not come out of nowhere.
Night all.
There are more immigrants from Europe employed now than there was before the referendum.
And a visit to a supermarket will reveal them to be filled with fruit and veg with union jack packaging.
But all that is real world and some people prefer to wallow in their ignorant prejudices and get their 'information' from twatter.
http://twitter.com/AnnieChave/status/1185986911908827137
They are making sure it’s a complete cockup from the start...
@hyufd made an incorrect statement about someone I know so I corrected him
I could have just corrected him, but chose to provide substance to my comment by explaining how I knew.
I think that is helpful to the site rather than boasting, but I’m happy not to validate or source in future if people would prefer that
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
Listening to him tonight he was at his worst doom and gloom for Boris and using this Feb 2020 date as if it is curtains for the deal
A little balance from him would be good and it is strinking that following his rant I turned to BBC, whose correspondent said that an extension may well be granted, either techical, for a GE or a referendum, but the leaders have not considered it and will not until after this week. Furthermore the EU leaders summit required for this decision has not even been provisionally considered and it will take time for all 27 leaders to come together
So clearly lots of rumours and disinformation and wiser heads would just step back a bit and be more measured as was the BBC and not Goodall
Apple pickers ???
Who needs doctors or scientists or engineers when you can have an economy based on apple pickers.
They might amend the motion.
Their goal is to restrict the options of a PM who keeps losing votes, and increasing the numbers willing to vote against him
If you grow apples for a business, pickers are kind of important.
Pause.
Ah, my coat...
If you go back to the 1990s and earlier then agricultural employment would have been higher than now and with I imagine very few immigrants.
But the law of supply and demand applies to agricultural workers as it does to every other sector of the economy at every other time.
A business which offers fair pay and conditions will get employees while a business which doesn't will struggle to do so.
Why anyone should have any sympathy for businesses which don't offer fair pay and conditions is beyond me especially when the business is already operating in a low paid sector.
I’m glad you agree.
Just imagine what it would be like now the English have disappeared down the hysteria rabbit hole?