I see Tory Swinsons number one choice was congratulating Jester and saying if bill given 7 days rather than 3 he would vote for it.
Tory Swinson really doesn't have a clue
Tory Swinson is still better than Jeremy Corbyn.
But a vote for Tory Swinson leads to PM Jestet and hard BREXIT.
It's either PM Jester or Jezza and a 2nd Referendum
Except in a Tory/LD marginal. If I lived in (for example) Cheadle, I'd vote LD, and I'm a paid-up Labour member!
Fortunately, I live in a Tory/Lab marginal (or atleast, it was a marginal before "toxic" Corbyn increased the Labour majority from 93 to more than 9k last time).
Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .
It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !
Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election? I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic. My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.
As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
Scottish imo, not very broad though.
Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
In my experience Scottish accents generally come across really well in England. Better than many regional English accents do, that's for sure.
Call me a little Englander, but I'd now never vote for a party that had a Scots/Welsh /Irish leader. The union is done and dusted.
BoZo secured the deal with the EU by putting a border in the Irish sea
So people who voted against May's Deal have now voted against the BorisDeal.
No change there then and nobody been ditched.
But Bozo went DUP conference and promised that there would be no customs border in the Irish Sea. And then met Vradakar and agreed to put a customs border in the Irish Sea. A complete betrayal. Even May was not that brazen.
Boris did though produce another plan first which didn't get a warm welcome in Dublin or elsewhere.
Ultimately the DUP are on a long, slow but downward escalator - if the union means so much to them they need to support full integration within the UK.
But unionism gets ignored when its an inconvenience to them - see abortion as an example.
Yes, I think you've nailed it.
"We're BRITS damn it! But we don't want your stinking abortion or gay marriage laws. We're not THOSE KIND of Brits"
*Sigh!*
How often do I have to repeat this?
The DUP are more like American evangelicals on gays/abortion/marriage. It is not that they ignore Unionism - it simply does not figure in the social spectrum.
On politics they loathe the Republic because it was seen as a proxy for the Catholic church. Like many evangelical types they have no time for "papists".
So when you put a border down the Irish Sea you are cutting them off from Britishness and forcing them towards a majority Catholic country.
Not just votes at 16, there's probably a majority in the Commons to give votes to EU citizens as well.
Like I said, a naked gerrymander.
Gerrymandering Is a practice intended to establish a political advantage for a particular party by manipulating electoral district geographic boundaries. That is not what you are talking about. Extending the franchise is just extending democracy. Why are you scared of 16 year olds voting?
It is unlikely that there is a brexit deal that can command Government support and gain enough opposition support in a hung parliament. Therefore the only way a deal does get through is through an election.
Unless you want all this to come back at an EU summit every 3 months and prevent the EU from functioning properly
No just give us an extension to 2200 that will resolve everything, we can then go back to worry about important things rather than pathetic sovereignty arguments
As I understand it you don't even live in the UK so no surprise you don't care anout the place as long as it keeps sending you money.
I have every right to care about what happens in the UK because it will affect my and my children’s rights, the UK do not send me a penny that I haven’t earned or contributed to over the years. I think having paid x,xxx,xxx in tax in my working life I have a right to my £140/week pension as much as anyone. If We all had to come back to the UK I think we might bugger a few things up.
So I was right. You don't care so long as they keep sending you your money. No wonder you don't understand Leave voters with an attitude like that.
I don’t give a shit about my £140/week it really is irrelevant I don’t get anything I haven’t earned, possibly in more ways than you have ever done.
I doubt that very much.
Moreover you didn't earn any of it. You paid into a system to support the pensioners at he time you were working. Just like the rest of us you were paying it forward in the hope you might get something back when your time came around. But that was it. No guarantees and no promises.
On top of that you then decided to bugger off to another country. Entirely your choice but you can't then moan if things don't turn out the way you hoped.
I presume you feel the same applies to frustrated Leavers who have, er... left the country?
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks) ?
It's the sort of change that would take months and months to sort out practically and seems like an emptry threat to me.
Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .
It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !
Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election? I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic. My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.
As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
Scottish imo, not very broad though.
Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
In my experience Scottish accents generally come across really well in England. Better than many regional English accents do, that's for sure.
Call me a little Englander, but I'd now never vote for a party that had a Scots/Welsh /Irish leader. The union is done and dusted.
It's the biggest problem I have with voting Lib Dem at the moment. Jo Swinson seems too quick to make digs at Nicola Sturgeon that just seem irrelevant to English politics.
Excuse me. How about "naked rigging of the electoral system"?
No. Gerrymandering is purely about dividing a geographic area into voting districts in such a way as to give an unfair advantage to one party in an election.
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks)
If we're able to make quick arrangements for ~32m people to vote in an election within a few weeks, why would making arrangements for an extra ~800k 16/17-year-olds be so difficult?
I see Tory Swinsons number one choice was congratulating Jester and saying if bill given 7 days rather than 3 he would vote for it.
Tory Swinson really doesn't have a clue
Tory Swinson is still better than Jeremy Corbyn.
But a vote for Tory Swinson leads to PM Jestet and hard BREXIT.
It's either PM Jester or Jezza and a 2nd Referendum
I’m voting for Tory Swinson regardless.
You aren't that bothered about stopping BREXIT or a 2nd Referendum then.
What's Tory Swinsons other policies BTW?
In favour of fracking? It's a potential vulnerability. Oh yes, and saying it is impossible to have indyref 2 and yet adopting a position on Brexit which would authorise instant Scottish UDI if she had any consistency.
Open to naked gerrymandering by the left, he means?
I don’t think that the bill will include any redrawing of constituencies to anyone’s advantage. And what do the Tories have to fear from votes at 16?
Aside from the fact that many children are just a bit gullible and may easily fall for woke, utopian fantasies?
We don’t stop the elderly voting just because many of them suffer from dementia and are equally open to manipulation. Sixteen year olds voted in the Scottish Referendum and, presumably, that went the way you had hoped.
It is unlikely that there is a brexit deal that can command Government support and gain enough opposition support in a hung parliament. Therefore the only way a deal does get through is through an election.
Unless you want all this to come back at an EU summit every 3 months and prevent the EU from functioning properly
No just give us an extension to 2200 that will resolve everything, we can then go back to worry about important things rather than pathetic sovereignty arguments
As I understand it you don't even live in the UK so no surprise you don't care anout the place as long as it keeps sending you money.
I have every right to care about what happens in the UK because it will affect my and my children’s rights, the UK do not send me a penny that I haven’t earned or contributed to over the years. I think having paid x,xxx,xxx in tax in my working life I have a right to my £140/week pension as much as anyone. If We all had to come back to the UK I think we might bugger a few things up.
So I was right. You don't care so long as they keep sending you your money. No wonder you don't understand Leave voters with an attitude like that.
I don’t give a shit about my £140/week it really is irrelevant I don’t get anything I haven’t earned, possibly in more ways than you have ever done.
I doubt that very much.
Moreover you didn't earn any of it. You paid into a system to support the pensioners at he time you were working. Just like the rest of us you were paying it forward in the hope you might get something back when your time came around. But that was it. No guarantees and no promises.
On top of that you then decided to bugger off to another country. Entirely your choice but you can't then moan if things don't turn out the way you hoped.
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks)
If we're able to make quick arrangements for ~32m people to vote in an election within a few weeks, why would making arrangements for an extra ~800k 16/17-year-olds be so difficult?
It'd possibly help parties of the left at the margins but turnout amongst that age group would be abysmal.
Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .
It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !
Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election? I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic. My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.
As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
Scottish imo, not very broad though.
Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
In my experience Scottish accents generally come across really well in England. Better than many regional English accents do, that's for sure.
Call me a little Englander, but I'd now never vote for a party that had a Scots/Welsh /Irish leader. The union is done and dusted.
I am not going to call you a little Englander but I do think it's sad you care two hoots about what nationality someone is if they are the right person for the job.
Johnson: Fuck Remainers Tory Swinson: Fuck Leavers Corbyn: Let’s stop No Deal and then treat both sides with respect and have a public vote
I am for the one trying to deal with this horrible mess and to bring the divided country together too
Corbyn is the only adult in the room
Corbyn is a divisive and abusive bully who has never clarified in his own mind what he wants or how to get it. He is also a serial liar and populist comparable to Trump.
He is not trying to deal with the mess. He is trying to exploit it. He is also failing because he isn’t very bright and has no idea what to do.
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks)
If we're able to make quick arrangements for ~32m people to vote in an election within a few weeks, why would making arrangements for an extra ~800k 16/17-year-olds be so difficult?
Because they aren't on the electoral register?
At the moment only those aged 18 and above are on the electoral register.
They will have to be added to the electoral register first which would take local authorities months and months to sort out?
It would certainly take a lot longer to sort out than a five week general election campaign.
And switching the voting system from FPTP to *something* else in five weeks would be even more complicated.
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks)
If we're able to make quick arrangements for ~32m people to vote in an election within a few weeks, why would making arrangements for an extra ~800k 16/17-year-olds be so difficult?
The same Labour party which opposes boundary changes want to introduce other change that might work in their favour - colour me surprised
Call me a little Englander, but I'd now never vote for a party that had a Scots/Welsh /Irish leader. The union is done and dusted.
I am not going to call you a little Englander but I do think it's sad you care two hoots about what nationality someone is if they are the right person for the job.
That's not fair - we don't know that TFS is Celtophobic. There is a real issue thanks to EVEL about havign a Scottish leader who is by definition not allowed to vote in major issues, on the current state of asymmetric devolution.
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks)
If we're able to make quick arrangements for ~32m people to vote in an election within a few weeks, why would making arrangements for an extra ~800k 16/17-year-olds be so difficult?
It'd possibly help parties of the left at the margins but turnout amongst that age group would be abysmal.
I think if it had been in place at the last election, it could've swung a handful of seats from Tories to Labour, plus one or two seats from Tory to SNP, which could've been enough to make Corbyn PM.
Of course, a new election currently does not look like it will be as close as last time, though.
Although I want this over desperately, I seriously believe that if / when this Deal goes through the UK will have dissolved inside 10 years.
So I am having a small whisky tonight for another stay of execution.
I understand what you mean . Let us celebrate that we’re still going to be in the EU a bit longer .
I bet Donald Tusk was very happy when he saw the result of the programme motion .
What a lovely man , a true inspiration who fought against Communism in Poland .
FWIW I think there is a good chance that the last few days have seen peak Brexit. I have thought for some time that if Johnson did not succeed in taking us out on 31st October we would probably never leave, and I still hold that view. Johnson's deal will not now get through parliament, the second reading vote was driven by virtue-signalling Labour MPs who cannot be relied upon to see it through. And if the bill gets as far as the House of Lords there will be a blizzard of amendments which the government will find it very hard to reverse.
So the only way forward for leavers is to try and get a Tory majority through a general election. But this is far from guaranteed. Johnson spent most of the Tory leadership campaign hiding behind the sofa and when he did emerge he was obviously uncomfortable under scrutiny and unable to answer even the most obvious and predictable questions. And then there is the trust issue. It is quite possible that both Johnson and his deal will melt in the heat of an election campaign.
And any other election result apart from a Tory majority is likely to result in the reversal of Brexit. If the Tories do not win the other parties (all of which will run on a revoke and/or referendum platform) will say that the electorate has rejected Brexit and either revoke or hold another referendum. Either of which will kill the idea altogether.
It's the biggest problem I have with voting Lib Dem at the moment. Jo Swinson seems too quick to make digs at Nicola Sturgeon that just seem irrelevant to English politics.
Yeah, it puts me off, too. Sturgeon has been very good these past few years imo. Swinson is looking to her own seat, though, which is understandable. Could imagine the Lib Dems doing really well but losing their leader.
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks)
If we're able to make quick arrangements for ~32m people to vote in an election within a few weeks, why would making arrangements for an extra ~800k 16/17-year-olds be so difficult?
The same Labour party which opposes boundary changes want to introduce other change that might work in their favour - colour me surprised
Scotland already in favour of votes at 16 got to be worth allowing Jester a GE with that change.
I really think Boris (and Corbyn) should try for 28th November, which is still viable (just) if they agree tomorrow. I don't think anyone wants a December General Election apart from us political wonks.
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks)
If we're able to make quick arrangements for ~32m people to vote in an election within a few weeks, why would making arrangements for an extra ~800k 16/17-year-olds be so difficult?
Because they aren't on the electoral register?
At the moment only those aged 18 and above are on the eletoral register
They will have to be added to the electoral register first which would take local authorities months and months to sort out?
That’s not quite true. Sixteen year olds are allowed on the register ready for when they turn 18 - they are just not allowed to vote until then. It would be pretty straightforward to send polling cards to all the 16 & 17 year olds on the register.
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks) ?
It's the sort of change that would take months and months to sort out practically and seems like an emptry threat to me.
And ditto with changing the voting system.
A one line bill could also be amended to set a GE date sufficient to give time for such actions, of course.
The EU leadership appear ready to progress a 31 January extension...
It's almost as if the Benn Act architects had pre-agreed the best extension date with them.
Now now they will be called traitors next
That date was the one which secured the largest number of votes for the Benn Act. I buy the suggestion that the EU following it is the most neutral-looking stance they can take.
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks)
If we're able to make quick arrangements for ~32m people to vote in an election within a few weeks, why would making arrangements for an extra ~800k 16/17-year-olds be so difficult?
Because they aren't on the electoral register?
At the moment only those aged 18 and above are on the eletoral register
They will have to be added to the electoral register first which would take local authorities months and months to sort out?
That’s not quite true. Sixteen year olds are allowed on the register ready for when they turn 18 - they are just not allowed to vote until then. It would be pretty straightforward to send polling cards to all the 16 & 17 year olds on the register.
I really think Boris (and Corbyn) should try for 28th November, which is still viable (just) if they agree tomorrow. I don't think anyone wants a December General Election apart from us political wonks.
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks)
If we're able to make quick arrangements for ~32m people to vote in an election within a few weeks, why would making arrangements for an extra ~800k 16/17-year-olds be so difficult?
It'd possibly help parties of the left at the margins but turnout amongst that age group would be abysmal.
I think if it had been in place at the last election, it could've swung a handful of seats from Tories to Labour, plus one or two seats from Tory to SNP, which could've been enough to make Corbyn PM.
Of course, a new election currently does not look like it will be as close as last time, though.
As has been said an election in the 3 month time frame would not enable votes at 16 or for europeans, so it is either GE on the existing electoral roll or Boris's deal which cannot be amended as no time to negotiate with the EU
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks)
If we're able to make quick arrangements for ~32m people to vote in an election within a few weeks, why would making arrangements for an extra ~800k 16/17-year-olds be so difficult?
Because they aren't on the electoral register?
At the moment only those aged 18 and above are on the electoral register.
They will have to be added to the electoral register first which would take local authorities months and months to sort out?
It would certainly take a lot longer to sort out than a five week general election campaign.
And switching the voting system from FPTP to *something* else in five weeks would be even more complicated.
I can't find the date for the 2017 election, but for the Brexit referendum, people could register up until 8 June (two weeks before polling day).
If the election was on 12 Dec, there'd be plenty of time.
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks)
If we're able to make quick arrangements for ~32m people to vote in an election within a few weeks, why would making arrangements for an extra ~800k 16/17-year-olds be so difficult?
The same Labour party which opposes boundary changes want to introduce other change that might work in their favour - colour me surprised
Given the new Tory voting demographic I’m not sure the Tories will be in favour of boundary changes either.
Open to naked gerrymandering by the left, he means?
I don’t think that the bill will include any redrawing of constituencies to anyone’s advantage. And what do the Tories have to fear from votes at 16?
Aside from the fact that many children are just a bit gullible and may easily fall for woke, utopian fantasies?
We don’t stop the elderly voting just because many of them suffer from dementia and are equally open to manipulation. Sixteen year olds voted in the Scottish Referendum and, presumably, that went the way you had hoped.
Rigging of the electoral system by parties that didn't win the last election seems a little undemocratic, no?
Excuse me. How about "naked rigging of the electoral system"?
No. Gerrymandering is purely about dividing a geographic area into voting districts in such a way as to give an unfair advantage to one party in an election.
I imagine, given how people tend to use it pretty liberally thesedays (and not all on one side either) that it is a word whose meaning will expand over time to mean any measure designed to give an electoral advantage to one party in an election.
Also blueblue seemed to be accepting your point, hence rewording it to not refer to gerrymandering.
Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .
It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !
Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election? I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic. My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.
As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
Scottish imo, not very broad though.
Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
In my experience Scottish accents generally come across really well in England. Better than many regional English accents do, that's for sure.
Call me a little Englander, but I'd now never vote for a party that had a Scots/Welsh /Irish leader. The union is done and dusted.
The EU leadership appear ready to progress a 31 January extension...
It's almost as if the Benn Act architects had pre-agreed the best extension date with them.
Now now they will be called traitors next
That date was the one which secured the largest number of votes for the Benn Act. I buy the suggestion that the EU following it is the most neutral-looking stance they can take.
Yes it is the only date unless the HOC votes otherwise.
Unless they opt for the stupid 'have a short extension, and if not agreed by then a longer extension will come into play' plan from earlier this year, they can be as open to it as they like whilst being willing to accept any old cobbler. As we've seen very few people are willing to die in a ditch over a political point, and they'd do it for that?
Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .
It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !
Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election? I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
I
The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic. My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.
As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
Scottish imo, not very broad though.
Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
In my experience Scottish accents generally come across really well in England. Better than many regional English accents do, that's for sure.
Call me a little Englander, but I'd now never vote for a party that had a Scots/Welsh /Irish leader. The union is done and dusted.
I am not going to call you a little Englander but I do think it's sad you care two hoots about what nationality someone is if they are the right person for the job.
As I said, the union is done and dusted. I'm English, and a Celt has no more claim to be my PM than I have to be their's. Things are changing rapidly. I don't think (or even care) if Brexit will happen or not, in fact I'm actually a mildly born again Remainer but we have to face up to what's happening. Lets all be good neighbours inside the EU
Excuse me. How about "naked rigging of the electoral system"?
No. Gerrymandering is purely about dividing a geographic area into voting districts in such a way as to give an unfair advantage to one party in an election.
I imagine, given how people tend to use it pretty liberally thesedays (and not all on one side either) that it is a word whose meaning will expand over time to mean any measure designed to give an electoral advantage to one party in an election.
Also blueblue seemed to be accepting your point, hence rewording it to not refer to gerrymandering.
Yes fair point, I mis-read the post. Apologies @blueblue
I won't be happy until I can cast my ballot through the only method of truly being able to get across complex emotions sufficiently - interpretative dance.
How does one say 'I agree with many of your policies but have misgivings about certain of them, and on balance will support you for now' through strategic use of arm flairs and hip thrusts?
Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .
It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !
Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election? I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic. My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.
As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
Scottish imo, not very broad though.
Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
In my experience Scottish accents generally come across really well in England. Better than many regional English accents do, that's for sure.
Call me a little Englander, but I'd now never vote for a party that had a Scots/Welsh /Irish leader. The union is done and dusted.
On votes for 16 year old I would expect them to vote lib dem or green and not assist labour at all
Well quite.
Why it’s assumed 16 year olds would vote for a slightly dog-eared 70 year old trot and not for the bright young things in the Green Party is beyond me.
Not just votes at 16, there's probably a majority in the Commons to give votes to EU citizens as well.
Rigging the electorate to get the result you want is wholly undemocratic. Voters should choose their politicians. Politicians shouldn't choose their voters.
I wouldn't mind compulsory voting as long as there's a "None Of The Above" option - which is why it'll never happen as "None Of The Above" would win a landslide every time.
Leaving today’s debate with one thought. It’s amazing how remain voting entitled voters who are now living abroad are vilified by leave voting Torys where as leave voting Torys living abroad aren’t criticized.
Ghostwatch is one of the scariest things I've ever watched. I finally got round to watching it about a year ago, although I was aware of it at the time.
It's the biggest problem I have with voting Lib Dem at the moment. Jo Swinson seems too quick to make digs at Nicola Sturgeon that just seem irrelevant to English politics.
Yeah, it puts me off, too. Sturgeon has been very good these past few years imo. Swinson is looking to her own seat, though, which is understandable. Could imagine the Lib Dems doing really well but losing their leader.
Precisely the opposite for me, Swinson standing up to the SNP and Sturgeon is about the only good thing she is doing at the moment, she is at least a staunch Unionist even if also a staunch diehard Remainer
I wouldn't mind compulsory voting as long as there's a "None Of The Above" option - which is whjy it'll never happen as "None Of The Above" would win a landslide every time.
Unless they opt for the stupid 'have a short extension, and if not agreed by then a longer extension will come into play' plan from earlier this year, they can be as open to it as they like whilst being willing to accept any old cobbler. As we've seen very few people are willing to die in a ditch over a political point, and they'd do it for that?
Macron might reasonably assume that a 3 month extension will accomplish precisely nothing, except continue to distract the EU from its many pressing issues. I think Tusk is trying to bounce everyone into agreeing to 3 months, but I wonder if Macron, Orban and a few others might hold out for something shorter.
Probably not, given everyone’s addiction to can kicking!
It's the biggest problem I have with voting Lib Dem at the moment. Jo Swinson seems too quick to make digs at Nicola Sturgeon that just seem irrelevant to English politics.
Yeah, it puts me off, too. Sturgeon has been very good these past few years imo. Swinson is looking to her own seat, though, which is understandable. Could imagine the Lib Dems doing really well but losing their leader.
Precisely the opposite for me, Swinson standing up to the SNP and Sturgeon is about the only good thing she is doing at the moment, she is at least a staunch Unionist even if also a staunch diehard Remainer
You do realise that 'staunch' has a very specific meaning in that context in Scotland? Not one normally associated with the LDs?
Are there any hard studies on gullibility / credulity by age groups? It often gets brought up as an unexamined assumption that 16-17 year olds are more gullible than adults, but I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that there are elements of experience that come with age, but then again younger people can be quite savvy to new developments and older people take time to cotton on. You hear a lot about older people getting scammed.
Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .
It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !
Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election? I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic. My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.
As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
Scottish imo, not very broad though.
Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
In my experience Scottish accents generally come across really well in England. Better than many regional English accents do, that's for sure.
Call me a little Englander, but I'd now never vote for a party that had a Scots/Welsh /Irish leader. The union is done and dusted.
That would have ruled out Michael Howard, John Smith, Neil Kinnock, Tony Blair, IDS, Gordon Brown, Charles Kennedy etc all of whom were born in Wales or Scotland
Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .
It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !
Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election? I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
I tan improvement.
The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic. My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.
As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
Scottish imo, not very broad though.
Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
In my experience Scottish accents generally come across really well in England. Better than many regional English accents do, that's for sure.
Call me a little Englander, but I'd now never vote for a party that had a Scots/Welsh /Irish leader. The union is done and dusted.
I am not going to call you a little Englander but I do think it's sad you care two hoots about what nationality someone is if they are the right person for the job.
While I agree with the sentiment, it's another thing which is not unusual for people to care about nationality even to the point of legislating on it. Shouldn't make a difference when we're all part of the wider UK Union, but as we've seen from Australia some places will kick you out of office for holding dual nationality you didn't even know you had, so even being a citizen of a country is not enough for them!
I've thought about this but even if Parliament amended the bill for votes for 16 year olds how would it practiically be possible to organize that within 5 weeks of a general election campaign (polling cards and postal votes go out after three weeks)
If we're able to make quick arrangements for ~32m people to vote in an election within a few weeks, why would making arrangements for an extra ~800k 16/17-year-olds be so difficult?
Because they aren't on the electoral register?
At the moment only those aged 18 and above are on the electoral register.
They will have to be added to the electoral register first which would take local authorities months and months to sort out?
It would certainly take a lot longer to sort out than a five week general election campaign.
And switching the voting system from FPTP to *something* else in five weeks would be even more complicated.
I can't find the date for the 2017 election, but for the Brexit referendum, people could register up until 8 June (two weeks before polling day).
If the election was on 12 Dec, there'd be plenty of time.
Any change to the electorate should be done with a ten year delay to prevent any current politicians benefitting.
Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .
It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !
Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election? I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic. My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.
As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
Scottish imo, not very broad though.
Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
In my experience Scottish accents generally come across really well in England. Better than many regional English accents do, that's for sure.
Call me a little Englander, but I'd now never vote for a party that had a Scots/Welsh /Irish leader. The union is done and dusted.
Are there any hard studies on gullibility / credulity by age groups? It often gets brought up as an unexamined assumption that 16-17 year olds are more gullible than adults, but I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that there are elements of experience that come with age, but then again younger people can be quite savvy to new developments and older people take time to cotton on. You hear a lot about older people getting scammed.
Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .
It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !
Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election? I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic. My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.
As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
Scottish imo, not very broad though.
Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
In my experience Scottish accents generally come across really well in England. Better than many regional English accents do, that's for sure.
Call me a little Englander, but I'd now never vote for a party that had a Scots/Welsh /Irish leader. The union is done and dusted.
That would have ruled out Michael Howard, Lloyd George, Douglas Home, Tony Blair, IDS, Gordon Brown, Charles Kennedy etc all of whom were born in Wales or Scotland
Comments
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gerrymander
Fortunately, I live in a Tory/Lab marginal (or atleast, it was a marginal before "toxic" Corbyn increased the Labour majority from 93 to more than 9k last time).
Hey with the plan.
How often do I have to repeat this?
The DUP are more like American evangelicals on gays/abortion/marriage. It is not that they ignore Unionism - it simply does not figure in the social spectrum.
On politics they loathe the Republic because it was seen as a proxy for the Catholic church. Like many evangelical types they have no time for "papists".
So when you put a border down the Irish Sea you are cutting them off from Britishness and forcing them towards a majority Catholic country.
There is only one way they will respond.
@williamglenn wins his bet from @SeanT !!!
What's Tory Swinsons other policies BTW?
It's the sort of change that would take months and months to sort out practically and seems like an emptry threat to me.
And ditto with changing the voting system.
Chris Stuckmann did "Ghostwatch"!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N_byOqyFrk
The EVEL laws really put a spoke into the notion of union - that all MPs are equal. Patently they are not. Another of Mr Cameron's legacies.
..
At the moment only those aged 18 and above are on the electoral register.
They will have to be added to the electoral register first which would take local authorities months and months to sort out?
It would certainly take a lot longer to sort out than a five week general election campaign.
And switching the voting system from FPTP to *something* else in five weeks would be even more complicated.
Of course, a new election currently does not look like it will be as close as last time, though.
Not for 1 second around lunchtime
Want to bet an unsolicited so-and-so is very wise post?
So the only way forward for leavers is to try and get a Tory majority through a general election. But this is far from guaranteed. Johnson spent most of the Tory leadership campaign hiding behind the sofa and when he did emerge he was obviously uncomfortable under scrutiny and unable to answer even the most obvious and predictable questions. And then there is the trust issue. It is quite possible that both Johnson and his deal will melt in the heat of an election campaign.
And any other election result apart from a Tory majority is likely to result in the reversal of Brexit. If the Tories do not win the other parties (all of which will run on a revoke and/or referendum platform) will say that the electorate has rejected Brexit and either revoke or hold another referendum. Either of which will kill the idea altogether.
Con 36%
Lab 25%
LD 18%
BRX 11%
Grn 4%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2019
I thought you learned the perils of being hyper partisan from the 2015 experience
Otherwise sensible folk refuse to be forced into a choice between two shit alternatives.
I would also tack on compulsory voting.
Oh!
Smart phone voting only from 2024
If the election was on 12 Dec, there'd be plenty of time.
IoS banging on about Labour ground game
Energy price freeze branded unworkable
Those were the days
Also blueblue seemed to be accepting your point, hence rewording it to not refer to gerrymandering.
EICIPM was me.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-50138379
How does one say 'I agree with many of your policies but have misgivings about certain of them, and on balance will support you for now' through strategic use of arm flairs and hip thrusts?
Why it’s assumed 16 year olds would vote for a slightly dog-eared 70 year old trot and not for the bright young things in the Green Party is beyond me.
https://committees.aberdeencity.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=133
She loves Jezza.
Probably not, given everyone’s addiction to can kicking!
It often gets brought up as an unexamined assumption that 16-17 year olds are more gullible than adults, but I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that there are elements of experience that come with age, but then again younger people can be quite savvy to new developments and older people take time to cotton on. You hear a lot about older people getting scammed.
I've been trying to google it just now, and I came across this:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-older-adults-are-too-trusting/
but it's hardly conclusive. There were also some non-scientific articles about younger folk being more easily fooled.
It would be ironic if all the people saying younger folk are too gullible to vote were just repeating something which turned out to be false
https://twitter.com/lucytobin/status/1186759627809144832