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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » GE2019 has become increasingly about Johnson’s efforts to defl

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited November 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » GE2019 has become increasingly about Johnson’s efforts to deflect scutiny

Conservative leader Boris Johnson refuses to commit to an interview with Andrew Neil before the general election https://t.co/cxnk4bMP2T pic.twitter.com/u1kYheea7r

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    edited November 2019
    (first and..)
    Brom said:

    This is 2017 all over again.

    The tories making ALL the same mistakes.

    Un-bel-ievable

    I honestly can’t decide if it is or it isn’t. Last time May was clearly frit this time it feels like the Tories are like a smart boxer, it’s impossible to predict their next move and it feels like they’re almost trolling the opposition at times. I don’t know if this is a deliberate tactic and if it is effective or not but it does at times feel rather unconventional on the surface at least.

    The hope would be is that beneath all the froth they are precision targeting the voters and constituencies they need to win and everything else is noise.
    I'm with you (on the "can't decide" point). For example I think the Neil-dodging looks like a smart move after Corbyn's uncomfortable ride, because every reporting of Johnson refusing to commit is accompanied by a reinforcing reference to how bad Corbyn's interview was. Once they have exhausted that, probably the interview will happen because the downside of chickening out becomes bigger than the gain from not doing it....

    ... but then you see Johnson making a huge mess of trying to defend it on BBC news today where he basically says "I'd love to do it but I'm not important enough to make these decisions and I need to wait to be told what to do" (by who?) - and that's a worse look than just doing the interview.

    My conclusion is that the strategy is much smarter than 2017 but that Johnson just isn't good enough at politics to execute the strategy well.

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    NorthernPowerhouseNorthernPowerhouse Posts: 557
    edited November 2019
    Disgraceful behaviour by CH4. Tories should have been sharper and got a court order to stop the broadcast.
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    Sorry if we aren't meant to ask this, but are the Tory/LD squeeze letters from OGH going round on Twitter genuine? Because they argue that the seat is a fight between Lab and LD, and include Warrington South as one of the targets. Which no model/poll/anything suggests is at all plausible for the LDs.

    I'm confused as to how these got made.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    I think Boris running scared is pretty bad and will get some airtime now, but I'm not sure if that is what the election will 'increasingly' be about.
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949

    Disgraceful behaviour by CH4. Tories should have been sharper and got a court order to stop the broadcast.

    They'd have lost. When Swinson and Sturgeon brought their attempt to judicial review the ITV debate the court said it wasn't even a decision capable of being JR'd.
  • Options

    Disgraceful behaviour by CH4. Tories should have been sharper and got a court order to stop the broadcast.

    Or maybe Boris should have just turned up?
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    kle4 said:

    I think Boris running scared is pretty bad and will get some airtime now, but I'm not sure if that is what the election will 'increasingly' be about.

    It's a nice simple story if nothing else happens and it has the key ingredient of new details emerging each day which can keep it in the news. It's not going to get much airtime if there are major policy announcements or screw ups but could be damaging if the Tories can't find anything to displace it. Maybe it's time to wheel Rees-Mogg out again.

    If only they hadn't used up a month's worth of dead cats in the first day of the campaign.
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    No polls tonight? Booo!
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    Surprised that this story seems to have legs. Thoght it would be Westminster bubble stuff, over in five minutes.

    Anyway I have to walk the dog. Maybe there will be a poll out by the time I get back.

    Laters.
  • Options

    Disgraceful behaviour by CH4. Tories should have been sharper and got a court order to stop the broadcast.

    Or maybe Boris should have just turned up?
    I think it’s fair to say “I’m not an expert on everything, Gove is on this” wouldn’t be unreasonable. He is the Prime Minister, first amongst equals. A principled position of reinforcing cabinet government, not presidential.
    But Boris is principle less.

    How could we be in the position of such dreadful people leading us or trying to lead us?
  • Options
    The Tories are looking like a bunch of headless chickens at present. The irony is that the government's record on environmental issues isn't too bad, so Boris could have reeled off a few achievements, declared there's more to do and got off relatively unscathed. The Tories let their hatred of Jon Snow and CH4 cloud their judgement.
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    The Tories are looking like a bunch of headless chickens at present. The irony is that the government's record on environmental issues isn't too bad, so Boris could have reeled off a few achievements, declared there's more to do and got off relatively unscathed. The Tories let their hatred of Jon Snow and CH4 cloud their judgement.

    It would have been an ambush though. The left will not accept any environmental improvements put forward by conservatives. Their environmentalism and leftism are inextricably linked.

    Think of the miliband debates in 2015. When it was really everyone saying how shit Ed is.
  • Options
    He’ll win because his opponent is unelectable, but Johnson’s cowardice, laziness and lies are there for all to see. It does not bode well for the coming years.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,607

    Disgraceful behaviour by CH4. Tories should have been sharper and got a court order to stop the broadcast.

    LOL. Leader couldn’t be arsed to turn up to leaders’ debate. End of..

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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    alex_ said:

    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.

    "Evil socialists in threatening to make your house better for free shock"?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,189
    Boris has every right to pass on the debates whilst he is heading for his landslide. PB Tories claiming he really wants to do them but is busy and has every right to send surrogates, and everyone else is just ganging up on him is laughable.
    Boris shouldn't do debates or interviews because he is useless at them.
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    He’ll win because his opponent is unelectable, but Johnson’s cowardice, laziness and lies are there for all to see. It does not bode well for the coming years.

    This is true but his cowardice and laziness may bode well in terms of getting a practical deal with the EU.

    We'll see.
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949

    The Tories are looking like a bunch of headless chickens at present. The irony is that the government's record on environmental issues isn't too bad, so Boris could have reeled off a few achievements, declared there's more to do and got off relatively unscathed. The Tories let their hatred of Jon Snow and CH4 cloud their judgement.

    I agree, and since he's not been in post long he could have disavowed any bad bits of the government record and promised better in future for that.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,607
    Quincel said:

    Disgraceful behaviour by CH4. Tories should have been sharper and got a court order to stop the broadcast.

    They'd have lost. When Swinson and Sturgeon brought their attempt to judicial review the ITV debate the court said it wasn't even a decision capable of being JR'd.
    And they probably had a somewhat stronger argument.

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    eggegg Posts: 1,749

    No polls tonight? Booo!

    The most under polled polling event in history
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    edited November 2019
    I reserved a place for Boris on my pub quiz tonight. But he never turned up. The bastard. Must have been afraid we would rip the piss out of him about his lack of knowledge on 80s music.....
    Why the fuck should Boris dance to Channel 4 News' tune, any more than he should turn up for my quiz team? He has a schedule to run and being in the West Country then Wales has been set up in the diary.
    Trying to make capital out of a declined invite (declined because Boris had other stuff already scheduled) is pretty thin gruel from Channel 4. I hope every constituency party invite Jon Snow to answer them about it - then writes and tells him he is a complete and utter c*** when he doesn't turn up....
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Boris is avoiding scrutiny. He is avoiding making any hard commitments. It is quite urgent to get him on the record on key issues, most critically a commitment to avoid hard Brexit in the event he doesn’t conclude a trade deal in 12 months. This about the only thing that could stop a hard Brexit.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    There was a time when we didn’t have leaders debates. But we did have chancellors debates on the economy, foreign sec votes on foreign policy, home sec votes on criminal justice...

    It was all so much better because the debates actually focussed (and in a much more detailed way) on issues and solutions rather than slogans and one upman ship.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Bozza needs to do the Neil interview.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.

    "Evil socialists in threatening to make your house better for free shock"?
    Govt dicking about with my home, enforcing entry into it by people I don’t know and don’t want, to impose a loan I don’t want, to then set up admin I have to deal with to monitor “savings”.

    They can fuck right off.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.

    "Evil socialists in threatening to make your house better for free shock"?
    If it’s a loan it’s not free Izzit?
  • Options

    The Tories are looking like a bunch of headless chickens at present. The irony is that the government's record on environmental issues isn't too bad, so Boris could have reeled off a few achievements, declared there's more to do and got off relatively unscathed. The Tories let their hatred of Jon Snow and CH4 cloud their judgement.

    It would have been an ambush though. The left will not accept any environmental improvements put forward by conservatives. Their environmentalism and leftism are inextricably linked.

    Think of the miliband debates in 2015. When it was really everyone saying how shit Ed is.
    Yes, I can see the reasoning behind keeping Boris away. But having done so they should just suck up the subsequent grumblings and wait till everyone forgets about it. The nonsense with Gove, OfCom and threatening to close down CH4 is causing more trouble than having Boris appear on the bloody thing.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,189

    Disgraceful behaviour by CH4. Tories should have been sharper and got a court order to stop the broadcast.

    I thought Corbyn was the aspiring Soviet dictator.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited November 2019

    I reserved a place for Boris on my pub quiz tonight. But he never turned up. The bastard. Must have been afraid we would rip the piss out of him about his lack of knowledge on 80s music.....
    Why the fuck should Boris dance to Channel 4 News' tune, any more than he should turn up for my quiz team? He has a schedule to run and being in the West Country then Wales has been set up in the diary.
    Trying to make capital out of a declined invite (declined because Boris had other stuff already scheduled) is pretty thin gruel from Channel 4. I hope every constituency party invite Jon Snow to answer them about it - then writes and tells him he is a complete and utter c*** when he doesn't turn up....

    Why should any of them turn up ? It's an election campaign, and people want to see them answering questions. This angle would be much more convincing if the Cummings / Johnson machine hadn't spent about a month or so working on the idea that Corbyn was 'frit' of the entire election taking place to begin with.
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    eggegg Posts: 1,749
    alex_ said:

    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.

    Those days opponents and media talk about the thing that isn’t hurting them, wasting time they could be highlighting what hurts them, like a reverse dead cat? Corbyn s getting away with it because Tory media are splashing the wrong stuff. They prefer corbyn is a spy, corbyn is an anti Semite, Corbyn is a chicken, corbyn is a Stalinist, rather than corbyn has a sneaky way of stealing your housekeeping and will bankrupt the country.
    Where have you heard it apart from Eggs posts on here? posters here who think scrapping MTA by labour is a big deal are wrong on the reason it raises much money or leaves many a lot worse off. Apart from Eggs postings have you heard the real story of labours scrapping MTA is the atheists attempting to turn the whole nation into atheists, pulling rug from those who believe to raise family’s under marriage is stronger, its retrograde social engineering and they are getting away with it.
    The polls better be right because the polls have wrecked the campaign.

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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    edited November 2019
    Amazing comments on here tonight given just 24hrs ago YouGov revealed Conservatives were heading for their biggest majority for 32 years. :D
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,945
    Quincel said:

    The Tories are looking like a bunch of headless chickens at present. The irony is that the government's record on environmental issues isn't too bad, so Boris could have reeled off a few achievements, declared there's more to do and got off relatively unscathed. The Tories let their hatred of Jon Snow and CH4 cloud their judgement.

    I agree, and since he's not been in post long he could have disavowed any bad bits of the government record and promised better in future for that.
    I think people outside the leftie/middle-class/twitter bubble might be quite surprised at what most people think about "environmental issues".

    Greta Thunberg is just a joke meme ("How dare you!") and Extinction Rebellion are those people who finally got what was coming to them when they got dragged off the top of that tube carriage.

    As others have pointed out it wasn't a debate tonight, it was a holier-than-thou smugfest and Boris made the right decision staying out of it.
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    It looks like there's been no movement on the Con Maj market but how much movement has there been on the individual constituency markets ?

    Does anyone have a list of the biggest movers ?
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    edited November 2019

    Boris has every right to pass on the debates whilst he is heading for his landslide. PB Tories claiming he really wants to do them but is busy and has every right to send surrogates, and everyone else is just ganging up on him is laughable.
    Boris shouldn't do debates or interviews because he is useless at them.

    I think that's the approach Theresa May tried... for the same reasons.
    Remind me, how did that work out?
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Sure it's not ropey letters from Polling experts?
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    The Tories are looking like a bunch of headless chickens at present. The irony is that the government's record on environmental issues isn't too bad, so Boris could have reeled off a few achievements, declared there's more to do and got off relatively unscathed. The Tories let their hatred of Jon Snow and CH4 cloud their judgement.

    It would have been an ambush though. The left will not accept any environmental improvements put forward by conservatives. Their environmentalism and leftism are inextricably linked.

    Think of the miliband debates in 2015. When it was really everyone saying how shit Ed is.
    EICIPM :lol:
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,189
    MaxPB said:

    Bozza needs to do the Neil interview.

    Nah, he can send his Dad.
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    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    Boris should absolutely do the Andrew Neill interview and looks frit not turning up. I feel the opposite about the C4 interview given Jon Snow has well established himself as a Labour man.
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    alex_ said:

    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.

    "Evil socialists in threatening to make your house better for free shock"?
    If it’s a loan it’s not free Izzit?
    I assumed it was the standard model where you get a loan which is repaid with money left over from the savings generated by the energy saving measures (similar to how Green Deal was meant to work circa 2011) - so nets out as free money. I've not had time to look at the details though, is that assumption wrong?
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    eggegg Posts: 1,749
    MaxPB said:

    Bozza needs to do the Neil interview.

    Bozzy can’t be brillo’d now, passed the point of no return on that one, he’s getting the chicken PB headers and headlines like May did senseless to take the Brillo on top of that. Turn a Brillo into a chicken reputation + Brillo. That would be campaign management gone mad.
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    GIN1138 said:

    Amazing comments on here tonight given just 24hrs ago YouGov revealed Conservatives were heading for their biggest majority for 32 years. :D

    Squeaky ELBOW time? :lol:
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited November 2019
    Boris's apparent unwillingness to run the gauntlet of a Neil interview reminds me of the "magician" Uri Geller's rejection of the offer to demonstrate his spoon bending to the great theoretical physicist Richard Feynman who would have seen through him.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    Toms said:

    Boris's apparent unwillingness to run the gauntlet of a Neil interview reminds me of the "magician" Uri Geller's rejection of the offer to demonstrate his spoon bending to the great Theoretical physicist Richard Feynman who would have seen through him.

    Feynman had x-ray vision?! :wink:
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    Toms said:

    Boris's apparent unwillingness to run the gauntlet of a Neil interview reminds me of the "magician" Uri Geller's rejection of the offer to demonstrate his spoon bending to the great Theoretical physicist Richard Feynman who would have seen through him.

    Feynman had x-ray vision?! :wink:
    Much better: brilliance with a practical edge.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,607

    I reserved a place for Boris on my pub quiz tonight. But he never turned up. The bastard. Must have been afraid we would rip the piss out of him about his lack of knowledge on 80s music.....
    Why the fuck should Boris dance to Channel 4 News' tune, any more than he should turn up for my quiz team? He has a schedule to run and being in the West Country then Wales has been set up in the diary.
    Trying to make capital out of a declined invite (declined because Boris had other stuff already scheduled) is pretty thin gruel from Channel 4. I hope every constituency party invite Jon Snow to answer them about it - then writes and tells him he is a complete and utter c*** when he doesn't turn up....

    Of course he’s entitled to decline. Just as C4 are entitled to turn down a surrogate, and we are entitled to draw out conclusions about how much of a shit he gives about climate change.

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    Boris has every right to pass on the debates whilst he is heading for his landslide. PB Tories claiming he really wants to do them but is busy and has every right to send surrogates, and everyone else is just ganging up on him is laughable.
    Boris shouldn't do debates or interviews because he is useless at them.

    I think that's the approach Theresa May tried... for the same reasons.
    Remind me, how did that work out?
    Boris Johnson is not Theresa May...
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.

    "Evil socialists in threatening to make your house better for free shock"?
    If it’s a loan it’s not free Izzit?
    I assumed it was the standard model where you get a loan which is repaid with money left over from the savings generated by the energy saving measures (similar to how Green Deal was meant to work circa 2011) - so nets out as free money. I've not had time to look at the details though, is that assumption wrong?
    How do you measure the “savings” from double glazing?
    Does the householder have to do the admin?
    Who pays to redecorate?
    How green is it to replace windows that are less efficient but might have twenty years of life left? Is there the capacity to make them?
    More squillions to be paid for by debt.
    It’s a con man’s charter. Govt sanctioned inspections and access to houses? How do you protect the vulnerable from those wishing to do harm by taking advantage?
    What if I don’t want any of the arse ache this involves? Especially if I’m old and I’m going to get all the grief if having it done and precious few of the benefits?

    It’s posturing and bonkers.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667

    I reserved a place for Boris on my pub quiz tonight. But he never turned up. The bastard. Must have been afraid we would rip the piss out of him about his lack of knowledge on 80s music.....
    Why the fuck should Boris dance to Channel 4 News' tune, any more than he should turn up for my quiz team? He has a schedule to run and being in the West Country then Wales has been set up in the diary.
    Trying to make capital out of a declined invite (declined because Boris had other stuff already scheduled) is pretty thin gruel from Channel 4. I hope every constituency party invite Jon Snow to answer them about it - then writes and tells him he is a complete and utter c*** when he doesn't turn up....

    You're feeling relaxed about this one then I see.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Gabs3 said:

    Boris should absolutely do the Andrew Neill interview and looks frit not turning up. I feel the opposite about the C4 interview given Jon Snow has well established himself as a Labour man.

    Yep
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    kyf_100 said:

    Quincel said:

    The Tories are looking like a bunch of headless chickens at present. The irony is that the government's record on environmental issues isn't too bad, so Boris could have reeled off a few achievements, declared there's more to do and got off relatively unscathed. The Tories let their hatred of Jon Snow and CH4 cloud their judgement.

    I agree, and since he's not been in post long he could have disavowed any bad bits of the government record and promised better in future for that.
    I think people outside the leftie/middle-class/twitter bubble might be quite surprised at what most people think about "environmental issues".

    Greta Thunberg is just a joke meme ("How dare you!") and Extinction Rebellion are those people who finally got what was coming to them when they got dragged off the top of that tube carriage.

    As others have pointed out it wasn't a debate tonight, it was a holier-than-thou smugfest and Boris made the right decision staying out of it.
    Thank goodness for that then. So glad that the vast majority of the world's scientists are simply inside the leftie/Twitter/middle class bubble...
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    welshowl said:

    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.

    "Evil socialists in threatening to make your house better for free shock"?
    Govt dicking about with my home, enforcing entry into it by people I don’t know and don’t want, to impose a loan I don’t want, to then set up admin I have to deal with to monitor “savings”.

    They can fuck right off.
    Seconded
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.

    "Evil socialists in threatening to make your house better for free shock"?
    Where are you getting "for free" from?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    edited November 2019

    I reserved a place for Boris on my pub quiz tonight. But he never turned up. The bastard. Must have been afraid we would rip the piss out of him about his lack of knowledge on 80s music.....
    Why the fuck should Boris dance to Channel 4 News' tune, any more than he should turn up for my quiz team? He has a schedule to run and being in the West Country then Wales has been set up in the diary.
    Trying to make capital out of a declined invite (declined because Boris had other stuff already scheduled) is pretty thin gruel from Channel 4. I hope every constituency party invite Jon Snow to answer them about it - then writes and tells him he is a complete and utter c*** when he doesn't turn up....

    You're feeling relaxed about this one then I see.
    He has right on his side on this one.
    Rather less so if he slides away from the AN evisceration to which all leaders are expected to submit....
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Nigelb said:

    I reserved a place for Boris on my pub quiz tonight. But he never turned up. The bastard. Must have been afraid we would rip the piss out of him about his lack of knowledge on 80s music.....
    Why the fuck should Boris dance to Channel 4 News' tune, any more than he should turn up for my quiz team? He has a schedule to run and being in the West Country then Wales has been set up in the diary.
    Trying to make capital out of a declined invite (declined because Boris had other stuff already scheduled) is pretty thin gruel from Channel 4. I hope every constituency party invite Jon Snow to answer them about it - then writes and tells him he is a complete and utter c*** when he doesn't turn up....

    Of course he’s entitled to decline. Just as C4 are entitled to turn down a surrogate, and we are entitled to draw out conclusions about how much of a shit he gives about climate change.

    Oh dear. Corbyn bottles.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/27/jeremy-corbyn-dodges-tv-debates-disastrous-bbc-interview/
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860
    lewis_goodall

    I think if we read a story about another country where a national political leader threatened to pull a broadcaster’s licence because he didn’t like their coverage, we know what our reaction would be.

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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    welshowl said:

    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.

    "Evil socialists in threatening to make your house better for free shock"?
    If it’s a loan it’s not free Izzit?
    I assumed it was the standard model where you get a loan which is repaid with money left over from the savings generated by the energy saving measures (similar to how Green Deal was meant to work circa 2011) - so nets out as free money. I've not had time to look at the details though, is that assumption wrong?
    How do you measure the “savings” from double glazing?
    Does the householder have to do the admin?
    Who pays to redecorate?
    How green is it to replace windows that are less efficient but might have twenty years of life left? Is there the capacity to make them?
    More squillions to be paid for by debt.
    It’s a con man’s charter. Govt sanctioned inspections and access to houses? How do you protect the vulnerable from those wishing to do harm by taking advantage?
    What if I don’t want any of the arse ache this involves? Especially if I’m old and I’m going to get all the grief if having it done and precious few of the benefits?

    It’s posturing and bonkers.
    Traditionally I think savings are measured by taking the difference between the heating bill before the work and the heating bill after, assuming constant energy prices and maintaining the same temperature.

    It's a fair question about the lifespan of less efficient windows. I looked at it when we insulated our house 5 years ago and i think it's a pretty quick net benefit taking into account manufacture and fitting, but can't quote figures.

    In terms of getting old and missing out on benefits, it *should* increase value of your house I guess, so ignoring frivolities like environmental benefits for subsequent generations there's a financial gain.
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    welshowl said:

    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.

    "Evil socialists in threatening to make your house better for free shock"?
    Govt dicking about with my home, enforcing entry into it by people I don’t know and don’t want, to impose a loan I don’t want, to then set up admin I have to deal with to monitor “savings”.

    They can fuck right off.
    Put you down as a maybe?
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    Nigelb said:

    I reserved a place for Boris on my pub quiz tonight. But he never turned up. The bastard. Must have been afraid we would rip the piss out of him about his lack of knowledge on 80s music.....
    Why the fuck should Boris dance to Channel 4 News' tune, any more than he should turn up for my quiz team? He has a schedule to run and being in the West Country then Wales has been set up in the diary.
    Trying to make capital out of a declined invite (declined because Boris had other stuff already scheduled) is pretty thin gruel from Channel 4. I hope every constituency party invite Jon Snow to answer them about it - then writes and tells him he is a complete and utter c*** when he doesn't turn up....

    Of course he’s entitled to decline. Just as C4 are entitled to turn down a surrogate, and we are entitled to draw out conclusions about how much of a shit he gives about climate change.

    I'm not sure Ch4 are entitled to turn down a surrogate in an election campaign especially. That's what Ofcom will look at partly
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    ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Sitting by a swimming pool sippin’ gin, watching the sun set over the jungle. Bob Marley blasting out. I can see hummingbirds from my bar stool.

    Britain ain’t so bad. Life is sweet. Cheer up everyone.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    lewis_goodall

    I think if we read a story about another country where a national political leader threatened to pull a broadcaster’s licence because he didn’t like their coverage, we know what our reaction would be.

    And if that leader also acted unlawfully when the going got tough.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    The Express are running with the Labour to make you spend thousands on your home story
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    ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    edited November 2019

    The Express are running with the Labour to make you spend thousands on your home story

    Whoops. That'll go down well with an overwhelmingly large demographic.
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    ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    The Express are running with the Labour to make you spend thousands on your home story

    That’s gonna seriously shift the Remain voting, Corbyn supporting Express readership, AKA Doris Made-Up, 66 Doesn’t Exist Avenue, Nowheretown
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    eggegg Posts: 1,749
    On topic.

    I think it was a bit of a stunt from Channel 4, I got that impression in the first 30 seconds, and everything that followed confirmed it. Turn their news show into a full leader debate on just one topic? If it’s going to be one topic it has to be the spokesman for that topic from each of the parties, if you want less showy debate and treat your subject with the respectful depth without gratuitous point scoring.
    They got it right last time with a show on mental health. Today’s pompous gimmick will quite rightly backfire on C4 in a big way, heads rolling.

    Truth is we don’t know how much the chicken caused Mays disaster last time. It seems only a few seats lost, but it was 20+ leads at start of campaign. Tories like to spin it that it was all down to dementia tax policy that was hard sell on doorsteps, but no harder sell than poll tax that won a landslide. Or the u turn, but by then the dementia tax had gone.
    Truth is May performed better in her campaign than Boris has had here.
    Personally I think the terrorism played a part cost May her majority. But there is also no doubt “you want to do the most toughest important negotiations in British history, yet you can’t debate us or be interviewed by a broadcaster” is a damaging punch, especially used often.
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    The Express are running with the Labour to make you spend thousands on your home story

    Does anyone actually read the Express? I thought it was the successor to the Sunday Sport these days... ;)
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Byronic said:

    Sitting by a swimming pool sippin’ gin, watching the sun set over the jungle. Bob Marley blasting out. I can see hummingbirds from my bar stool.

    Britain ain’t so bad. Life is sweet. Cheer up everyone.

    Um, I don't think that's Britain you are in. Sounds nice, mind.
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,812
    edited November 2019

    welshowl said:

    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.

    "Evil socialists in threatening to make your house better for free shock"?
    Govt dicking about with my home, enforcing entry into it by people I don’t know and don’t want, to impose a loan I don’t want, to then set up admin I have to deal with to monitor “savings”.

    They can fuck right off.
    Put you down as a maybe?
    My wife tells a tale of some of her old Fenland relatives hiding in a cupboard from the council when they made an appointment to install some newfangled gas CH in their council house.
    I've been past the location and I was somewhat surprised gas was even an option for them.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Polruan said:

    welshowl said:

    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Polruan said:

    alex_ said:

    Wonder if the Daily Mail might run on Corbyn’s “forced eco work to your home” policy? Objectively I think it would cost him millions of vote. Although personally as somebody who fears Corbyn it is one thing I would be utterly relaxed about as it is a policy I am sure would never be enacted in a million years.

    "Evil socialists in threatening to make your house better for free shock"?
    If it’s a loan it’s not free Izzit?
    I assumed it was the standard model where you get a loan which is repaid with money left over from the savings generated by the energy saving measures (similar to how Green Deal was meant to work circa 2011) - so nets out as free money. I've not had time to look at the details though, is that assumption wrong?
    How do you measure the “savings” from double glazing?
    Does the householder have to do the admin?
    Who pays to redecorate?
    How green is it to replace windows that are less efficient but might have twenty years of life left? Is there the capacity to make them?
    More squillions to be paid for by debt.
    It’s a con man’s charter. Govt sanctioned inspections and access to houses? How do you protect the vulnerable from those wishing to do harm by taking advantage?
    What if I don’t want any of the arse ache this involves? Especially if I’m old and I’m going to get all the grief if having it done and precious few of the benefits?

    It’s posturing and bonkers.
    Traditionally I think savings are measured by taking the difference between the heating bill before the work and the heating bill after, assuming constant energy prices and maintaining the same temperature.

    It's a fair question about the lifespan of less efficient windows. I looked at it when we insulated our house 5 years ago and i think it's a pretty quick net benefit taking into account manufacture and fitting, but can't quote figures.

    In terms of getting old and missing out on benefits, it *should* increase value of your house I guess, so ignoring frivolities like environmental benefits for subsequent generations there's a financial gain.
    “Assuming the same temperature “. Yup we are all going to be able to have controlled environments to do that, aren’t going to want to vary it a bit because well we’re human, and we just do, oh and the weather is identical year on year.

    It’s utopian bollocks. The sort of wind bag shit politicians come out with to con people they “care”, which falls apart under the slightest thought.

    We can all alter behaviour to do our bit, be nudged a bit here and given an incentive there, but this proposal completely boils my piss I’m afraid.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    MaxPB said:

    Bozza needs to do the Neil interview.

    Nah, he can send his Dad.
    And that was a lie by a senior C4 representative

    C4 invited Stanley (a noted and early environmentalist) themselves
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    JamesPJamesP Posts: 85
    edited November 2019
    Conservative Overall Majority back below 1.4 on Betfair.

    I think I saw it briefly touch 1.37 at one point a day or two ago. Lowest?
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    Personally I am sick of these so called debates. They have been corrupted by activists pretending to be grass roots when they are really AstroTurf. Channel 4 are a disgrace. They are transparently biased against Conservatives. John Snow has form in this regard. They have no right to insist on anyone turning up for their shows. Their hero Tony Blair never did a debate. If this proves to be the end of these rigged events so be it. Hooray.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    saddened said:

    Nigelb said:

    I reserved a place for Boris on my pub quiz tonight. But he never turned up. The bastard. Must have been afraid we would rip the piss out of him about his lack of knowledge on 80s music.....
    Why the fuck should Boris dance to Channel 4 News' tune, any more than he should turn up for my quiz team? He has a schedule to run and being in the West Country then Wales has been set up in the diary.
    Trying to make capital out of a declined invite (declined because Boris had other stuff already scheduled) is pretty thin gruel from Channel 4. I hope every constituency party invite Jon Snow to answer them about it - then writes and tells him he is a complete and utter c*** when he doesn't turn up....

    Of course he’s entitled to decline. Just as C4 are entitled to turn down a surrogate, and we are entitled to draw out conclusions about how much of a shit he gives about climate change.

    Oh dear. Corbyn bottles.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/27/jeremy-corbyn-dodges-tv-debates-disastrous-bbc-interview/
    Enjoy the volte face from those, just moments ago, railing against Boris for not attending.
    Life bowls beamers at you in this game!

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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934

    The Express are running with the Labour to make you spend thousands on your home story

    Does anyone actually read the Express? I thought it was the successor to the Sunday Sport these days... ;)
    I've no idea. Someone asked earlier if the papers would run with the story, I am just saying the express are.
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    I suspect the average voter will not be happy with the childish C4 insult of Boris who they quite like.
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    Byronic said:

    Sitting by a swimming pool sippin’ gin, watching the sun set over the jungle. Bob Marley blasting out. I can see hummingbirds from my bar stool.
    Britain ain’t so bad. Life is sweet. Cheer up everyone.

    It does not sound like you are IN Britain....
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    I reserved a place for Boris on my pub quiz tonight. But he never turned up. The bastard. Must have been afraid we would rip the piss out of him about his lack of knowledge on 80s music.....
    Why the fuck should Boris dance to Channel 4 News' tune, any more than he should turn up for my quiz team? He has a schedule to run and being in the West Country then Wales has been set up in the diary.
    Trying to make capital out of a declined invite (declined because Boris had other stuff already scheduled) is pretty thin gruel from Channel 4. I hope every constituency party invite Jon Snow to answer them about it - then writes and tells him he is a complete and utter c*** when he doesn't turn up....

    Of course he’s entitled to decline. Just as C4 are entitled to turn down a surrogate, and we are entitled to draw out conclusions about how much of a shit he gives about climate change.

    That’s the point: C4 can’t specify who attends. They have to offer the Tories equal representation
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Byronic said:

    Sitting by a swimming pool sippin’ gin, watching the sun set over the jungle. Bob Marley blasting out. I can see hummingbirds from my bar stool.

    Britain ain’t so bad. Life is sweet. Cheer up everyone.

    Bastard modelling assignments.....
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    ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    IshmaelZ said:

    Byronic said:

    Sitting by a swimming pool sippin’ gin, watching the sun set over the jungle. Bob Marley blasting out. I can see hummingbirds from my bar stool.

    Britain ain’t so bad. Life is sweet. Cheer up everyone.

    Um, I don't think that's Britain you are in. Sounds nice, mind.
    Yes, but I’m THINKING of Britain, as I watch the tropical songbirds ogle my ninth G&T

    Bob Marley played loud is fucking brilliant when you’re drunk in the hot evening sun. Oh to have seen him live in the Caribbean
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    dyingswan said:

    Personally I am sick of these so called debates. They have been corrupted by activists pretending to be grass roots when they are really AstroTurf. Channel 4 are a disgrace. They are transparently biased against Conservatives. John Snow has form in this regard. They have no right to insist on anyone turning up for their shows. Their hero Tony Blair never did a debate. If this proves to be the end of these rigged events so be it. Hooray.

    From the tone of your post, I assume you are voting Marxist?
    :D:D:D
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    eggegg Posts: 1,749
    Byronic said:

    Sitting by a swimming pool sippin’ gin, watching the sun set over the jungle. Bob Marley blasting out. I can see hummingbirds from my bar stool.

    Britain ain’t so bad. Life is sweet. Cheer up everyone.

    That’s not the post of someone properly drunk.
    Now our old poster Seant really knew how to live hard. By now he’d be taking a monkey off Bob at dominoes and smoking a hummingbird.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    dyingswan said:

    Personally I am sick of these so called debates. They have been corrupted by activists pretending to be grass roots when they are really AstroTurf. Channel 4 are a disgrace. They are transparently biased against Conservatives. John Snow has form in this regard. They have no right to insist on anyone turning up for their shows. Their hero Tony Blair never did a debate. If this proves to be the end of these rigged events so be it. Hooray.

    General election campaigns are FAR less entertaining since the debates were brought.

    If we are to be stuck with them for future elections I think we need much tighter OFCOM regulation to bring the broadcasters in to line.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    edited November 2019
    Exactly two weeks until the Big Bong!!!! :D
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    lewis_goodall

    I think if we read a story about another country where a national political leader threatened to pull a broadcaster’s licence because he didn’t like their coverage, we know what our reaction would be.

    "Sky News was forced to cancel a leaders’ debate on Thursday after Mr Corbyn refused to sign up to the programme, and a seven-way debate between party leaders on the BBC on Friday night will feature Rebecca Long-Bailey, the shadow business secretary, in Mr Corbyn’s place."

    AHAHAHAHAHAHA You were saying about leaders sending substitutes to leaders debates? See whist grown up broadcasters do? They accept a substitute or they cancel.

    Yet the yebbutthatsdifferents begin.
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    These things are now piling up. Threatening C4, refusing live debates, faking a fact checking service, using BBC ads for their own ads, breaking electoral law by send out a Boris Johnson begging letter with postal vote forms, misrepresentation of nurse numbers etc etc. If only the was a way all this could be reported :-)
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    XtrainXtrain Posts: 338
    Whatever happened to Putney Peter?
  • Options
    ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Yo-yo!!!

    Yo yo!!!!

    Yo-yo-yo-yo yooooo!!!
    Yo-yo!!! Yo-yo-yo-yo yooooo
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    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    egg said:

    Byronic said:

    Sitting by a swimming pool sippin’ gin, watching the sun set over the jungle. Bob Marley blasting out. I can see hummingbirds from my bar stool.

    Britain ain’t so bad. Life is sweet. Cheer up everyone.

    That’s not the post of someone properly drunk.
    Now our old poster Seant really knew how to live hard. By now he’d be taking a monkey off Bob at dominoes and smoking a hummingbird.
    Yeah, but according to SeanT's Twitter, he's in Paraguay at the moment and there, er, ain't no hummingbirds in, er, Paraguay, wait, am I doing this right.
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    egg said:

    On topic.

    I think it was a bit of a stunt from Channel 4, I got that impression in the first 30 seconds, and everything that followed confirmed it. Turn their news show into a full leader debate on just one topic? If it’s going to be one topic it has to be the spokesman for that topic from each of the parties, if you want less showy debate and treat your subject with the respectful depth without gratuitous point scoring.
    They got it right last time with a show on mental health. Today’s pompous gimmick will quite rightly backfire on C4 in a big way, heads rolling.

    Truth is we don’t know how much the chicken caused Mays disaster last time. It seems only a few seats lost, but it was 20+ leads at start of campaign. Tories like to spin it that it was all down to dementia tax policy that was hard sell on doorsteps, but no harder sell than poll tax that won a landslide. Or the u turn, but by then the dementia tax had gone.
    Truth is May performed better in her campaign than Boris has had here.
    Personally I think the terrorism played a part cost May her majority. But there is also no doubt “you want to do the most toughest important negotiations in British history, yet you can’t debate us or be interviewed by a broadcaster” is a damaging punch, especially used often.

    We are in desperate need of regulation when it comes to debates. I think it’s gotten a little silly. This time, all the broadcasters have been desperately trying to hold them, but there is no oversight over who they invite and what the format is.

    If they are to become a staple of British elections, as now seems the case they need to be regulated in terms of quantity and format.

    Unfortunately there is little political will to regulate them and I suspect we will see this charade for the foreseeable future.

    How did the debates commission in the USA get founded? There must have been bipartisan support at some point, though hard to imagine nowadays. Perhaps in a more congenial and more fluid political atmosphere (note that from the start of the Second World War until about 1992 there were significant presidential landslides for both parties) there was just more of a fertile ground for such things.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Hillsborough 96 trial, Spending plans criticised, Vietnam Funerals, Climate change plans - first items on BBC1 news.

    No mention of Boris, nothing on ice block gate on C4.
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    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Bozza needs to do the Neil interview.

    Nah, he can send his Dad.
    And that was a lie by a senior C4 representative

    C4 invited Stanley (a noted and early environmentalist) themselves
    Gove and Johnson's dad were turned away from the studio.
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    saddened said:

    Nigelb said:

    I reserved a place for Boris on my pub quiz tonight. But he never turned up. The bastard. Must have been afraid we would rip the piss out of him about his lack of knowledge on 80s music.....
    Why the fuck should Boris dance to Channel 4 News' tune, any more than he should turn up for my quiz team? He has a schedule to run and being in the West Country then Wales has been set up in the diary.
    Trying to make capital out of a declined invite (declined because Boris had other stuff already scheduled) is pretty thin gruel from Channel 4. I hope every constituency party invite Jon Snow to answer them about it - then writes and tells him he is a complete and utter c*** when he doesn't turn up....

    Of course he’s entitled to decline. Just as C4 are entitled to turn down a surrogate, and we are entitled to draw out conclusions about how much of a shit he gives about climate change.
    Oh dear. Corbyn bottles.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/27/jeremy-corbyn-dodges-tv-debates-disastrous-bbc-interview/
    Enjoy the volte face from those, just moments ago, railing against Boris for not attending.
    Life bowls beamers at you in this game!
    The thing is, Boris has given him the "out". Corbyn agreed to do the Andrew Neill ones because Boris was doing it too. Then Boris pulled out. So Corbyn can "I would do it if the PM did for balance, but unfortunately he lied the time and I cannot trust him"
    IMHO, if Corbyn's policies were not such a mess, he could do interview after interview and empty-chair Boris every time
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    Byronic said:

    Yo-yo!!!

    Yo yo!!!!

    Yo-yo-yo-yo yooooo!!!
    Yo-yo!!! Yo-yo-yo-yo yooooo

    Evening, Sean :lol:
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    ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    egg said:

    Byronic said:

    Sitting by a swimming pool sippin’ gin, watching the sun set over the jungle. Bob Marley blasting out. I can see hummingbirds from my bar stool.

    Britain ain’t so bad. Life is sweet. Cheer up everyone.

    That’s not the post of someone properly drunk.
    Now our old poster Seant really knew how to live hard. By now he’d be taking a monkey off Bob at dominoes and smoking a hummingbird.
    Yeah, but according to SeanT's Twitter, he's in Paraguay at the moment and there, er, ain't no hummingbirds in, er, Paraguay, wait, am I doing this right.
    That proves it, finally. I’m in far northern Argentina. NOT Paraguay.

    Doing a pajama shoot for IKEA
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282

    Boris has every right to pass on the debates whilst he is heading for his landslide. PB Tories claiming he really wants to do them but is busy and has every right to send surrogates, and everyone else is just ganging up on him is laughable.
    Boris shouldn't do debates or interviews because he is useless at them.

    We know he doesn’t do detail, nor is he a ideas man, his honesty and integrity fail every test, and he can’t debate or do interviews. One wonders what qualities he actually has that match anything on the person specification for the job.
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    eggegg Posts: 1,749

    The Tories are looking like a bunch of headless chickens at present. The irony is that the government's record on environmental issues isn't too bad, so Boris could have reeled off a few achievements, declared there's more to do and got off relatively unscathed. The Tories let their hatred of Jon Snow and CH4 cloud their judgement.

    It would have been an ambush though. The left will not accept any environmental improvements put forward by conservatives. Their environmentalism and leftism are inextricably linked.

    Think of the miliband debates in 2015. When it was really everyone saying how shit Ed is.
    EICIPM :lol:
    I was thinking earlier, show me an election poster today with EdM in Nicola’s pocket and you’ve sold it to me. I’d vote for that. Dream set up for U.K.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,607
    GIN1138 said:

    dyingswan said:

    Personally I am sick of these so called debates. They have been corrupted by activists pretending to be grass roots when they are really AstroTurf. Channel 4 are a disgrace. They are transparently biased against Conservatives. John Snow has form in this regard. They have no right to insist on anyone turning up for their shows. Their hero Tony Blair never did a debate. If this proves to be the end of these rigged events so be it. Hooray.

    General election campaigns are FAR less entertaining since the debates were brought.
    If we are to be stuck with them for future elections I think we need much tighter OFCOM regulation to bring the broadcasters in to line.
    No, we need some Electoral Commission guidance to bring the parties in to line.

  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,613
    I suppose Bozo will say that he is too busy meeting voters, and then spend the day stood in front of his bus in a warehouse with a dozen HYUFD clones forming his claque.

    'Are you Tezzie in disguise?'
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    egg said:

    The Tories are looking like a bunch of headless chickens at present. The irony is that the government's record on environmental issues isn't too bad, so Boris could have reeled off a few achievements, declared there's more to do and got off relatively unscathed. The Tories let their hatred of Jon Snow and CH4 cloud their judgement.

    It would have been an ambush though. The left will not accept any environmental improvements put forward by conservatives. Their environmentalism and leftism are inextricably linked.

    Think of the miliband debates in 2015. When it was really everyone saying how shit Ed is.
    EICIPM :lol:
    I was thinking earlier, show me an election poster today with EdM in Nicola’s pocket and you’ve sold it to me. I’d vote for that. Dream set up for U.K.
    Poor Ed Miliband. As much as I found him a bit of a wet fish I really wish he had won 2015. We would be in a much different place now.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,607
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    I reserved a place for Boris on my pub quiz tonight. But he never turned up. The bastard. Must have been afraid we would rip the piss out of him about his lack of knowledge on 80s music.....
    Why the fuck should Boris dance to Channel 4 News' tune, any more than he should turn up for my quiz team? He has a schedule to run and being in the West Country then Wales has been set up in the diary.
    Trying to make capital out of a declined invite (declined because Boris had other stuff already scheduled) is pretty thin gruel from Channel 4. I hope every constituency party invite Jon Snow to answer them about it - then writes and tells him he is a complete and utter c*** when he doesn't turn up....

    Of course he’s entitled to decline. Just as C4 are entitled to turn down a surrogate, and we are entitled to draw out conclusions about how much of a shit he gives about climate change.
    That’s the point: C4 can’t specify who attends. They have to offer the Tories equal representation
    And yet you were arguing precisely the opposite for the Corbyn/Johnson debate.

This discussion has been closed.