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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 25,247

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think much of the new housing stock is overpriced garbage but it's superior to renting for the owners. Which is all it needs to beat really.

    The Tories better hope house prices don't crash at the next recession.
    A period of sub inflation/sub wage increase growth in house prices is best for the Tories.
    Nominal gains so remortgaging etc isn't a problem for owners but increasing affordability.
    That's what's happened in recent years I believe. House price to wage ratios are coming down again.

    Its a function of improved housebuilding rates I suspect. The more building that occurs the less pressure on house price inflation there is.
    Yep, and housebuilding has to continue to beat population growth if there's to be any real steadying of prices

    There's an awful lot of people who seem to be in favour of immigration but against increased housebuilding.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 4,572

    FPT

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    isam said:

    Jonathan said:

    isam said:

    Hiliary Benn on Sky continuing to do his best to keep losing votes for Labour via his inner Mr Stop Brexit.

    There are very many who are understandably upset that Brexit is lost to the remain cause and it is like bereavement, time will be needed for them to adjust to the dramatic change in their hopes and dreams

    Wise words, MrG. If we are to heal as a country, an understanding of this is required. Sadly, I am not sure that healing is on the agenda!

    Your old mucker Boris explicitly said it was in his victory speech.
    Boris says one thing and does another.
    1.01 weighs in

    Oh of course! Let the division remain!!

    isam said:

    Hiliary Benn on Sky continuing to do his best to keep losing votes for Labour via his inner Mr Stop Brexit.

    There are very many who are understandably upset that Brexit is lost to the remain cause and it is like bereavement, time will be needed for them to adjust to the dramatic change in their hopes and dreams

    Wise words, MrG. If we are to heal as a country, an understanding of this is required. Sadly, I am not sure that healing is on the agenda!

    Your old mucker Boris explicitly said it was in his victory speech.

    And as we know, his word is his bond.

    It's obviously not on a lot of people's agenda, takes two to make up
    Saying you want healing and then legislating to promote a hard Brexit are not compatible.
    Sure it is. Healing can occur post-Brexit.
    What concessions do you think Boris will give?
    To whom?
    To the people with whom he wants to heal.
    He will Get Brexit Done.

    For too long many opponents of Brexit were stuck in the first stage of grief (shock and denial). Mr Meeks of this parish has got stuck on the anger stage. Once Brexit is done people can move onwards to acceptance and healing can begin.
    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.
  • eekeek Posts: 7,096
    Pulpstar said:

    Decision for the remortgage - 5 years or 2.... genuinely tricky to work out.

    Are interest rates in 2 years time going to be any lower?
    What is the remortgage fee - amortised over the period?

    Personally I would be going for the 5 years just because of the saving in future paperwork.
  • It appears 'graceless twat' has become the insult du jour of the more boorish end of the PB spectrum. Carry on healing, lads.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,504
    edited December 2019

    It appears 'graceless twat' has become the insult du jour of the more boorish end of the PB spectrum. Carry on healing, lads.

    There are plenty of ex Labour MPs who are saying the same....Magic Grandpa hasn't even had the decency to contact them to apologise and offer support to all their staff who have lost their jobs.

    As revealed by Nick Palmer ex-MP, Cameron actually phoned Labour MPs who lost their seats in previous elections.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 14,028

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    That all depends on whether Brexit works or not. Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,701

    It appears 'graceless twat' has become the insult du jour of the more boorish end of the PB spectrum. Carry on healing, lads.

    There are plenty of ex Labour MPs who are saying the same....Magic Grandpa hasn't even had the decency to contact them to apologise and offer support to all their staff who have lost their jobs.

    As revealed by Nick Palmer ex-MP, Cameron actually phoned Labour MPs who lost their seats in previous elections.
    Can you imagine how it would go down if Boris tried the same with the likes if Laura Pidcock?
  • Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    Not by the people who voted for it.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 14,028

    Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    Not by the people who voted for it.

    That is not clear at all. In fact history says otherwise.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 14,198
    "Absolutely extraordinary" is overused by journalists - I like Laura but she shouldn't resort to this sort of clickbait. They simply look detached - was she expecting faux bonhomie?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,504
    edited December 2019
    Cookie said:

    It appears 'graceless twat' has become the insult du jour of the more boorish end of the PB spectrum. Carry on healing, lads.

    There are plenty of ex Labour MPs who are saying the same....Magic Grandpa hasn't even had the decency to contact them to apologise and offer support to all their staff who have lost their jobs.

    As revealed by Nick Palmer ex-MP, Cameron actually phoned Labour MPs who lost their seats in previous elections.
    Can you imagine how it would go down if Boris tried the same with the likes if Laura Pidcock?
    What I like about Lisa Nandy is she doesn't immediately do the "I could never kiss a Tory" bollocks. In fact she has co-authored stuff with Ben Bradley.

    In the real world, most normal people have friends with a variety of different political views.
  • Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    That all depends on whether Brexit works or not. Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    In that scenario I'd still like open a book on which PBrexiteer would be first to blame it on lack of commitment from Remoaners. The strained logic and half arsed thinking will be wonders to behold.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,504
    edited December 2019
    Tesla Autopilot neutered in Europe to meet new regulations

    https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-s-model-x-autopilot-europe-regulations
  • FishingFishing Posts: 670

    tlg86 said:

    Are all the Beefeaters at Houses of Parliament today? Who entertains the tourists at the Tower? Or are they like Liverpool FC and have a youth team for the other fixture?

    More house buying subsidies to annoy me. Just build more.

    The government isn't in the business of building houses. House building companies do it and they do it to meet demand.

    If people find it easier to buy homes, then that encourages companies to build more homes. One feeds the other. It is simple supply and demand.
    The government supplies the bung and the executives provide the demand for bonuses.
    They'll only get bonuses if they're making a profit and they'll only be making a profit if they're both building and selling more homes.

    House building rates are at record levels and home ownership rates are going up. The policies are working as intended.
    Eh? House-building was 350k or more in some years in the 50s and 60s compared to 240k now. How is that a record?

    In any case, it's irrelevant given the much higher population growth in the last 20 years.

    The problem is not a lack of money, it's regulations that inhibit building, especially self-building.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,701
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think much of the new housing stock is overpriced garbage but it's superior to renting for the owners. Which is all it needs to beat really.

    The Tories better hope house prices don't crash at the next recession.
    A period of sub inflation/sub wage increase growth in house prices is best for the Tories.
    Nominal gains so remortgaging etc isn't a problem for owners but increasing affordability.
    That's what's happened in recent years I believe. House price to wage ratios are coming down again.

    Its a function of improved housebuilding rates I suspect. The more building that occurs the less pressure on house price inflation there is.
    Yep, and housebuilding has to continue to beat population growth if there's to be any real steadying of prices

    There's an awful lot of people who seem to be in favour of immigration but against increased housebuilding.
    Oh, quite. I have a facebook friend who intersperses being furious on facebook about the housebuildinh on the edge of his village with outrage about restrictions to immigration, iften in the same day. He doesn't seem to see the dissonance between the two.
    UK population has increased by about 20% in my lifetime. Bound to have something of an impact on the countryside, no?



  • ECJ grant "Parliamentary Immunity" to Catalan MEPs the Spanish had (or wanted too - my French isn't good enough) locked up
  • Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    That all depends on whether Brexit works or not. Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    The strained logic and half arsed thinking will be wonders to behold.
    If we need any lessons on strained logic and half arsed thinking we'll know where to come.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 2,600
    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Decision for the remortgage - 5 years or 2.... genuinely tricky to work out.

    Are interest rates in 2 years time going to be any lower?
    What is the remortgage fee - amortised over the period?

    Personally I would be going for the 5 years just because of the saving in future paperwork.
    That's almost always the calculation I end up making, as it's the only certainty. The rest (betting against a significant cut in rates) is just educated guesswork.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    Not by the people who voted for it.

    That is not clear at all. In fact history says otherwise.
    Voters blaming themselves for their own mistakes?
    Which history?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 18,230
    edited December 2019

    Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    That all depends on whether Brexit works or not. Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    The strained logic and half arsed thinking will be wonders to behold.
    If we need any lessons on strained logic and half arsed thinking we'll know where to come.

    Lucky that you don't need any lessons, eh? You're conversion to BJorgdom has been a masterclass.
  • "Absolutely extraordinary" is overused by journalists - I like Laura but she shouldn't resort to this sort of clickbait. They simply look detached - was she expecting faux bonhomie?

  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,701

    Cookie said:

    It appears 'graceless twat' has become the insult du jour of the more boorish end of the PB spectrum. Carry on healing, lads.

    There are plenty of ex Labour MPs who are saying the same....Magic Grandpa hasn't even had the decency to contact them to apologise and offer support to all their staff who have lost their jobs.

    As revealed by Nick Palmer ex-MP, Cameron actually phoned Labour MPs who lost their seats in previous elections.
    Can you imagine how it would go down if Boris tried the same with the likes if Laura Pidcock?
    What I like about Lisa Nandy is she doesn't immediately do the "I could never kiss a Tory" bollocks. In fact she has co-authored stuff with Ben Bradley.

    In the real world, most normal people have friends with a variety of different political views.
    That is one of the many things I like about Lisa Nandy. If only Labour had a few more like that.
  • eekeek Posts: 7,096

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Decision for the remortgage - 5 years or 2.... genuinely tricky to work out.

    Are interest rates in 2 years time going to be any lower?
    What is the remortgage fee - amortised over the period?

    Personally I would be going for the 5 years just because of the saving in future paperwork.
    That's almost always the calculation I end up making, as it's the only certainty. The rest (betting against a significant cut in rates) is just educated guesswork.
    The First Direct 5 year fixed rate mortgage is 1.49% - is it really likely that you are going to see anything much lower in 2 years time?

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 2,600

    I think he might quit earlier than planned.. He's really not happy

    To be fair what has he got to be happy about?
    Well exactly, and fair play to you for saying so. He got beat, trounced, hammered. If he were beaming and demob happy he'd be mocked for that.
  • Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    That all depends on whether Brexit works or not. Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    The strained logic and half arsed thinking will be wonders to behold.
    If we need any lessons on strained logic and half arsed thinking we'll know where to come.

    Lucky that you don't need any lessons, eh?
    Only "once in a generation".
  • That's so petty of Corbyn.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 14,028

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    Not by the people who voted for it.

    That is not clear at all. In fact history says otherwise.
    Voters blaming themselves for their own mistakes?
    Which history?
    If you were right voters would never change their mind in elections. It is perfectly possible that in the scenario when Boris Brexit tanks the economy people will take another view.

    When things go wrong people change their vote.
  • Does video exist of Major and Blair under similar circumstances? Or Brown and Cameron?
  • "Absolutely extraordinary" is overused by journalists - I like Laura but she shouldn't resort to this sort of clickbait. They simply look detached - was she expecting faux bonhomie?

    actual LOL at that smirk
  • I think he might quit earlier than planned.. He's really not happy

    To be fair what has he got to be happy about?
    Well exactly, and fair play to you for saying so. He got beat, trounced, hammered. If he were beaming and demob happy he'd be mocked for that.
    You don't have to slam a car door like a nutter to avoid looking demob happy.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,504
    edited December 2019

    Does video exist of Major and Blair under similar circumstances? Or Brown and Cameron?

    It all seems very reasonable and polite from all sides, not just Major / Blair, but other MPs. Major appears to make a joke with Blair and somebody on the Labour benches as they walk out (edit its Skinner...Blair seems to find whatever he said funny).




  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 17,102

    isam said:
    It's such a sterile debate. Pretty obviously, there's a spectrum. If I wanted to present myself as middle class, I'd say that I was a privately and university educated City professional. If I wanted to present myself as working class, I'd say that I was the son of a printer and the first person in my family to go to university. All of the above is true.

    I suspect my mother would define herself as "respectable" long before she thought about being working class or middle class. I can't honestly say I think about being the member of a class from one month to the next.
    I could very easily - and truthfully - present myself as a member of the aristocracy, middle class and poor downtrodden working class, as well as a member of various oppressed minorities.

    It's all nonsense. But it's funny watching members of a political party which has made identity politics such a key part of its offering being hoist by their own petard.
  • Does video exist of Major and Blair under similar circumstances? Or Brown and Cameron?

    It all seems very reasonable and polite from all sides, not just Major / Blair, but other MPs.




    cheers
  • That's so petty of Corbyn.
    Possibly, but there was no way after several years of trashing Jezza (rightly or wrongly) that Murray was going to get the job. In fact if offered it I'd guess he'd refuse to avoid the taint of serving under end stage Corbyn.
  • Does video exist of Major and Blair under similar circumstances? Or Brown and Cameron?

    It all seems very reasonable and polite from all sides, not just Major / Blair, but other MPs. Major appears to make a joke with Blair and somebody on the Labour benches as they walk out.




    That’s what I love about PB: ask a question and someone knows the answer.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 2,600

    Does video exist of Major and Blair under similar circumstances? Or Brown and Cameron?

    It all seems very reasonable and polite from all sides, not just Major / Blair, but other MPs. Major appears to make a joke with Blair and somebody on the Labour benches as they walk out (edit its Skinner...Blair seems to find whatever he said funny).




    Major and Blair did – and still do – get on very well.
  • As PB's resident Rochdalian in Scotland, I'm going to email Tony Lloyd and offer my services as SPAD until he inevitably gets binned off by the new leader.
  • Does video exist of Major and Blair under similar circumstances? Or Brown and Cameron?

    They generally try to make small talk - even May, not the chattiest, tried - in an adversarial system its important to keep open lines of communication for things like national emergencies - Corbyn was just a boor. But then those convinced of their moral certitude tend to be. Compare and contrast with Thornberry & Blackford immediately behind them - gossiping away and joshing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,504
    edited December 2019

    Does video exist of Major and Blair under similar circumstances? Or Brown and Cameron?

    It all seems very reasonable and polite from all sides, not just Major / Blair, but other MPs. Major appears to make a joke with Blair and somebody on the Labour benches as they walk out (edit its Skinner...Blair seems to find whatever he said funny).




    Major and Blair did – and still do – get on very well.
    It was noticeable that it wasn't just those two, a load of opposing MPs can be seen embracing one another. It is all very decent.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 2,600
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Decision for the remortgage - 5 years or 2.... genuinely tricky to work out.

    Are interest rates in 2 years time going to be any lower?
    What is the remortgage fee - amortised over the period?

    Personally I would be going for the 5 years just because of the saving in future paperwork.
    That's almost always the calculation I end up making, as it's the only certainty. The rest (betting against a significant cut in rates) is just educated guesswork.
    The First Direct 5 year fixed rate mortgage is 1.49% - is it really likely that you are going to see anything much lower in 2 years time?

    Well quite.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 14,028
    edited December 2019
    Interesting to see Nick Brown at the back in both the 1997 and 2019 shots below.






  • Does video exist of Major and Blair under similar circumstances? Or Brown and Cameron?

    Was Cameron & Harman. Brown had quit.



  • Does video exist of Major and Blair under similar circumstances? Or Brown and Cameron?

    Was Cameron & Harman. Brown had quit.

    //youtu.be/Dvoj1QP1HSQ?t=208

    Hiliary Benn and Philip Hammond getting on like a house on fire.
  • Why oh why won't Marxist Leninist, antisemitic, terrorist loving scum Jeremy show a bit of grace and good humour?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 13,039

    Does video exist of Major and Blair under similar circumstances? Or Brown and Cameron?

    Was Cameron & Harman. Brown had quit.

    //youtu.be/Dvoj1QP1HSQ?t=208

    Hiliary Benn and Philip Hammond getting on like a house on fire.
    The clues were there, we just chose to ignore them.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,504
    edited December 2019

    Why oh why won't Marxist Leninist, antisemitic, terrorist loving scum Jeremy show a bit of grace and good humour?

    You would think he would be happy. No longer have to pretend to watch the Queen's speech, no having to give interviews to biased media like the Guardian and can get back to wearing the old track suit at weekends.
  • Does video exist of Major and Blair under similar circumstances? Or Brown and Cameron?

    Was Cameron & Harman. Brown had quit.



    Nick Clegg & Jack Straw, Hague & Milliband.

    No doubt its tougher on the leaders - but Corbyn should stand down now - he's sincerely "done his bit" (however grievously mistaken he was) - but this cannot be good for his wellbeing.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,910
    @isam , thank you for your Spectator link. I was going to get irate but I read it and I think Hardman is correct ithin certain parameters. But those parameters are beginning to worry me.

    The BBC classify me as "technical middle class" - Google it, its a thing. My skills are technical, my degrees STEM, cash-rich, property-poor, extraordinarily geographically mobile, I inherit fuck all, and I rent out a bedroom. The more I stay on here the more it appears that that subgroup is not widely known by politicians and the discussion on here and in the media about class delineation omits this subgroup: I was surprised to realise you didn't know that many that are, and I was appalled to realise I don't know that many who aren't!

    So the discussion here is not strictly applicable to me and assumptions made on observation of the traditional middle class do not necessarily read across to me. I have a whole different set of unpleasant characteristics, thank you... :)
  • Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    That all depends on whether Brexit works or not. Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    That may be the case however for the vast majority of people I think there will a desire to put this behind us and not have to think about it again for a long time. I think any party proposing re-joining next time will be about as popular as chlamydia.

    There is not a snowballs chance in hell the Tories will want to re-open only wounds on Europe.
    Labour didn't want to discuss Europe this time - they sure won't next time.

    The Lib Dems may decide to fight on a rejoin policy but even they will probably want some breathing space before getting into that.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 2,252

    Does video exist of Major and Blair under similar circumstances? Or Brown and Cameron?

    It all seems very reasonable and polite from all sides, not just Major / Blair, but other MPs. Major appears to make a joke with Blair and somebody on the Labour benches as they walk out (edit its Skinner...Blair seems to find whatever he said funny).




    Major and Blair did – and still do – get on very well.
    Despite, or because of, the fact that Blair's now a Tory, and Major isn't?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 57,993

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Decision for the remortgage - 5 years or 2.... genuinely tricky to work out.

    Are interest rates in 2 years time going to be any lower?
    What is the remortgage fee - amortised over the period?

    Personally I would be going for the 5 years just because of the saving in future paperwork.
    That's almost always the calculation I end up making, as it's the only certainty. The rest (betting against a significant cut in rates) is just educated guesswork.
    The First Direct 5 year fixed rate mortgage is 1.49% - is it really likely that you are going to see anything much lower in 2 years time?

    Well quite.
    Don't have the equity to get that one :(
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 2,600
    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Decision for the remortgage - 5 years or 2.... genuinely tricky to work out.

    Are interest rates in 2 years time going to be any lower?
    What is the remortgage fee - amortised over the period?

    Personally I would be going for the 5 years just because of the saving in future paperwork.
    That's almost always the calculation I end up making, as it's the only certainty. The rest (betting against a significant cut in rates) is just educated guesswork.
    The First Direct 5 year fixed rate mortgage is 1.49% - is it really likely that you are going to see anything much lower in 2 years time?

    Well quite.
    Don't have the equity to get that one :(
    What are the rates available to you under your current equity @Pulpstar ?
  • This is worth a rewatch...the interviewer starts off as a self confessed fan of Corbyn, but Jezza throws a strop even with him because he dares to ask one tough question.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 14,028

    Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    That all depends on whether Brexit works or not. Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    That may be the case however for the vast majority of people I think there will a desire to put this behind us and not have to think about it again for a long time. I think any party proposing re-joining next time will be about as popular as chlamydia.

    There is not a snowballs chance in hell the Tories will want to re-open only wounds on Europe.
    Labour didn't want to discuss Europe this time - they sure won't next time.

    The Lib Dems may decide to fight on a rejoin policy but even they will probably want some breathing space before getting into that.
    We'll see. It depends entirely on how it goes. If we enter a 2008/1990s style recession, the pound crashes and cuts to services/pensions, I would not rule anything out.
  • And since the 2016 Brexit vote, when around 4 million Labour voters voted to leave the EU, many of this group have said in focus groups that they felt their former party views them as “racist,” “stupid,” or thought they didn’t know what they were voting for. Over this period, the sorts of areas where Labour lost out last week had trended heavily against it. The damage was not done in one term, or even since Brexit, but over a long period that began at least a decade before Jeremy Corbyn became Labour leader.

    They tend to be the places with the fewest college graduates, and are much more socially conservative than Labour’s new urban seats. When experts have pointed out the problem, as Paula Surridge at University of Bristol did recently, the reaction from many of Labour’s activists is along the lines of “so you’re saying we have to be racist to win votes?” This puts Labour in a worse situation than it found itself in in the 1980s. Back then, its biggest problems were much more related to policy. That may be part of the story once again, as is leadership (Jeremy Corbyn has already said that he will resign once a successor is elected). But a long-building culture gap, exposed though not started by Brexit, is a much harder problem to solve.


    https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinion/articles/2019-12-19/britain-s-labour-party-faces-an-existential-crisis?__twitter_impression=true
  • Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    nunu2 said:

    On twitter there is a Laura Pidcock letter to constituents, apparently.

    It is apparently quite amusing.

    Why don't you read it first, then report back.
    Available via the Northern Echo.
    Brief summary: Bafflement that people don't love Jeremy. Jeremy is brilliant. The manifesto was brilliant. Everything would have been brilliant had Labour got in to power. A Labour Brexit would have been brilliant and everyone would have been happy. Now, we'll get a Tory Brexit and everyone will be sad. It's all the media's fault. They won't let you see Jeremy like I see him.
    It's like when one of your friends gets a bad boyfriend/girlfriend. The friendship group see it, the family see it, you all try and reason with them over their poor choice. 'You don't know him/her like I do, you don't see their good side'.

    Eventually there's a breakup, and a moment of clarity/admission that they'd made a poor choice. This will be a long time in coming - only Owen Jones has begun to admit that Jez was a disaster.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 26,819

    Ian Blackford sitting in Dennis Skinner’s old seat.....as leader of the third largest contingent of MPs I suppose it makes sense...or does it by tradition go to the longest serving opposition MP?

    Either way we’ve traded one tedious windbag for another...

    You are a ray of sunshine for Scottish prospects
  • Fishing said:

    tlg86 said:

    Are all the Beefeaters at Houses of Parliament today? Who entertains the tourists at the Tower? Or are they like Liverpool FC and have a youth team for the other fixture?

    More house buying subsidies to annoy me. Just build more.

    The government isn't in the business of building houses. House building companies do it and they do it to meet demand.

    If people find it easier to buy homes, then that encourages companies to build more homes. One feeds the other. It is simple supply and demand.
    The government supplies the bung and the executives provide the demand for bonuses.
    They'll only get bonuses if they're making a profit and they'll only be making a profit if they're both building and selling more homes.

    House building rates are at record levels and home ownership rates are going up. The policies are working as intended.
    Eh? House-building was 350k or more in some years in the 50s and 60s compared to 240k now. How is that a record?

    In any case, it's irrelevant given the much higher population growth in the last 20 years.

    The problem is not a lack of money, it's regulations that inhibit building, especially self-building.
    If you're having to go back half a century then I think my point stands. Its at record levels in modern times.
  • eekeek Posts: 7,096

    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Decision for the remortgage - 5 years or 2.... genuinely tricky to work out.

    Are interest rates in 2 years time going to be any lower?
    What is the remortgage fee - amortised over the period?

    Personally I would be going for the 5 years just because of the saving in future paperwork.
    That's almost always the calculation I end up making, as it's the only certainty. The rest (betting against a significant cut in rates) is just educated guesswork.
    The First Direct 5 year fixed rate mortgage is 1.49% - is it really likely that you are going to see anything much lower in 2 years time?

    Well quite.
    Don't have the equity to get that one :(
    What are the rates available to you under your current equity @Pulpstar ?
    Even a 75% loan is 1.59% for 5 years at first direct. Mind you it gets higher rapidly at above 75%.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 26,595

    When experts have pointed out the problem, as Paula Surridge at University of Bristol did recently, the reaction from many of Labour’s activists is along the lines of “so you’re saying we have to be racist to win votes?”

    In fairness to that person, the strategy of electing a racist to lead the party was a bit of a dismal failure this time.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 5,541
    Unbelievably there is no mention today at all of implementing Boundary changes or introducing a Bill such that the Boundary Commission does its next review with 650 MPs and speed up next review so it definitely gets done in time for next GE.

    See link - pages 126 and 127 - for full details of plans re "Constitution and democracy"

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853886/Queen_s_Speech_December_2019_-_background_briefing_notes.pdf

    Both Cameron and May failed to get this through. It is simply breathtaking that Boris should take any risk with this. A Bill should be passed immediately returning to 650 MPs and for Boundary Commission to then start review (which takes over 2 years to complete) immediately such that Boundary Commission then reports in 2022 - not September 2023 as currently scheduled which is cutting it far too fine.
  • Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    That all depends on whether Brexit works or not. Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    That may be the case however for the vast majority of people I think there will a desire to put this behind us and not have to think about it again for a long time. I think any party proposing re-joining next time will be about as popular as chlamydia.

    There is not a snowballs chance in hell the Tories will want to re-open only wounds on Europe.
    Labour didn't want to discuss Europe this time - they sure won't next time.

    The Lib Dems may decide to fight on a rejoin policy but even they will probably want some breathing space before getting into that.
    I think that you are right that people want to put this behind them. Even I do, and I am what it think is usually referred to as a "diehard Remainer". The question is whether that will be possible, given that all aspects of our economic performance and our international relations will continue to be seen through the prism of Brexit. There is a good chance that the process of leaving the Single Market will be the occasion of considerable economic pain, and then the question of whether Brexit is a good idea will inevitably come to the fore, even if there are no prospects of rejoining (and I agree there are no prospects of that). I for one will certainly not hold back from saying "I told you so".
  • malcolmg said:

    Ian Blackford sitting in Dennis Skinner’s old seat.....as leader of the third largest contingent of MPs I suppose it makes sense...or does it by tradition go to the longest serving opposition MP?

    Either way we’ve traded one tedious windbag for another...

    You are a ray of sunshine for Scottish prospects
    Ships?
    Trains?
    Planes?
    Schools?
    Hospitals?

    No wonder she doesn't want to talk about the day job....

    (Joking apart, Robertson was a much better parliamentarian than the "crofter" (sic))
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 2,600
    MikeL said:

    Unbelievably there is no mention today at all of implementing Boundary changes or introducing a Bill such that the Boundary Commission does its next review with 650 MPs and speed up next review so it definitely gets done in time for next GE.

    See link - pages 126 and 127 - for full details of plans re "Constitution and democracy"

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853886/Queen_s_Speech_December_2019_-_background_briefing_notes.pdf

    Both Cameron and May failed to get this through. It is simply breathtaking that Boris should take any risk with this. A Bill should be passed immediately returning to 650 MPs and for Boundary Commission to then start review (which takes over 2 years to complete) immediately such that Boundary Commission then reports in 2022 - not September 2023 as currently scheduled which is cutting it far too fine.

    Why on Earth would Boris risk angering his own MPs by cutting their seats?
  • eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Decision for the remortgage - 5 years or 2.... genuinely tricky to work out.

    Are interest rates in 2 years time going to be any lower?
    What is the remortgage fee - amortised over the period?

    Personally I would be going for the 5 years just because of the saving in future paperwork.
    That's almost always the calculation I end up making, as it's the only certainty. The rest (betting against a significant cut in rates) is just educated guesswork.
    The First Direct 5 year fixed rate mortgage is 1.49% - is it really likely that you are going to see anything much lower in 2 years time?

    Well quite.
    Don't have the equity to get that one :(
    What are the rates available to you under your current equity @Pulpstar ?
    Even a 75% loan is 1.59% for 5 years at first direct. Mind you it gets higher rapidly at above 75%.
    I've just remortgaged for 5 years at 1.6% - even if rates are higher at the end, and HSBC don't offer me a preferential deal, it gives me plenty of time to chip away at the balance remaining.

    Rates are ridiculously low at the moment, it can't last forever.
  • If Corbyn does want to stand down immediately, it shouldn't be a problem for the hard left; it seems with no Deputy they can anoint the acting leader -

    "v. When the Party is in opposition and the leader and deputy leader, for whatever reason, both become permanently unavailable, the NEC shall order a postal ballot as provided under E above. In consultation with the Shadow Cabinet they may choose to appoint a member of the Shadow Cabinet to serve as Party leader until the outcome of that ballot."
    https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Rule-Book-2019.pdf
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 26,595

    malcolmg said:

    Ian Blackford sitting in Dennis Skinner’s old seat.....as leader of the third largest contingent of MPs I suppose it makes sense...or does it by tradition go to the longest serving opposition MP?

    Either way we’ve traded one tedious windbag for another...

    You are a ray of sunshine for Scottish prospects
    Ships?
    Trains?
    Planes?
    Schools?
    Hospitals?

    No wonder she doesn't want to talk about the day job....

    (Joking apart, Robertson was a much better parliamentarian than the "crofter" (sic))
    I think, whatever our politics, we all agree Angus Robertson was impressive. It’s a shame he looks lost to politics.
  • eekeek Posts: 7,096

    MikeL said:

    Unbelievably there is no mention today at all of implementing Boundary changes or introducing a Bill such that the Boundary Commission does its next review with 650 MPs and speed up next review so it definitely gets done in time for next GE.

    See link - pages 126 and 127 - for full details of plans re "Constitution and democracy"

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853886/Queen_s_Speech_December_2019_-_background_briefing_notes.pdf

    Both Cameron and May failed to get this through. It is simply breathtaking that Boris should take any risk with this. A Bill should be passed immediately returning to 650 MPs and for Boundary Commission to then start review (which takes over 2 years to complete) immediately such that Boundary Commission then reports in 2022 - not September 2023 as currently scheduled which is cutting it far too fine.

    Why on Earth would Boris risk angering his own MPs by cutting their seats?
    The law reduces the numbers to 600 MPs if Boris doesn't do anything.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 5,840

    Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    That all depends on whether Brexit works or not. Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    That may be the case however for the vast majority of people I think there will a desire to put this behind us and not have to think about it again for a long time. I think any party proposing re-joining next time will be about as popular as chlamydia.

    There is not a snowballs chance in hell the Tories will want to re-open only wounds on Europe.
    Labour didn't want to discuss Europe this time - they sure won't next time.

    The Lib Dems may decide to fight on a rejoin policy but even they will probably want some breathing space before getting into that.
    I think that you are right that people want to put this behind them. Even I do, and I am what it think is usually referred to as a "diehard Remainer". The question is whether that will be possible, given that all aspects of our economic performance and our international relations will continue to be seen through the prism of Brexit. There is a good chance that the process of leaving the Single Market will be the occasion of considerable economic pain, and then the question of whether Brexit is a good idea will inevitably come to the fore, even if there are no prospects of rejoining (and I agree there are no prospects of that). I for one will certainly not hold back from saying "I told you so".
    The media may see it through the prism of Brexit, but I don't know if voters will. Even if they do, they may feel it's a price worth paying.

    I think we're out for good now. The best we can hope for is a deal with the EU.
  • MikeL said:

    Unbelievably there is no mention today at all of implementing Boundary changes or introducing a Bill such that the Boundary Commission does its next review with 650 MPs and speed up next review so it definitely gets done in time for next GE.

    See link - pages 126 and 127 - for full details of plans re "Constitution and democracy"

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853886/Queen_s_Speech_December_2019_-_background_briefing_notes.pdf

    Both Cameron and May failed to get this through. It is simply breathtaking that Boris should take any risk with this. A Bill should be passed immediately returning to 650 MPs and for Boundary Commission to then start review (which takes over 2 years to complete) immediately such that Boundary Commission then reports in 2022 - not September 2023 as currently scheduled which is cutting it far too fine.

    Very disappointing, indeed. Presumably there'll still be time to implement the changes between now and 2024?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 10,756
    eek said:

    MikeL said:

    Unbelievably there is no mention today at all of implementing Boundary changes or introducing a Bill such that the Boundary Commission does its next review with 650 MPs and speed up next review so it definitely gets done in time for next GE.

    See link - pages 126 and 127 - for full details of plans re "Constitution and democracy"

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853886/Queen_s_Speech_December_2019_-_background_briefing_notes.pdf

    Both Cameron and May failed to get this through. It is simply breathtaking that Boris should take any risk with this. A Bill should be passed immediately returning to 650 MPs and for Boundary Commission to then start review (which takes over 2 years to complete) immediately such that Boundary Commission then reports in 2022 - not September 2023 as currently scheduled which is cutting it far too fine.

    Why on Earth would Boris risk angering his own MPs by cutting their seats?
    The law reduces the numbers to 600 MPs if Boris doesn't do anything.
    We'll be cutting 59 MPs once Scotland departs the Union..
  • eek said:

    MikeL said:

    Unbelievably there is no mention today at all of implementing Boundary changes or introducing a Bill such that the Boundary Commission does its next review with 650 MPs and speed up next review so it definitely gets done in time for next GE.

    See link - pages 126 and 127 - for full details of plans re "Constitution and democracy"

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853886/Queen_s_Speech_December_2019_-_background_briefing_notes.pdf

    Both Cameron and May failed to get this through. It is simply breathtaking that Boris should take any risk with this. A Bill should be passed immediately returning to 650 MPs and for Boundary Commission to then start review (which takes over 2 years to complete) immediately such that Boundary Commission then reports in 2022 - not September 2023 as currently scheduled which is cutting it far too fine.

    Why on Earth would Boris risk angering his own MPs by cutting their seats?
    The law reduces the numbers to 600 MPs if Boris doesn't do anything.
    Yes, but doesn't there need to be a further implementation vote at some point? This thing's been dragged out so long I've lost track of the procedure.
  • rkrkrk said:

    Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    That all depends on whether Brexit works or not. Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    That may be the case however for the vast majority of people I think there will a desire to put this behind us and not have to think about it again for a long time. I think any party proposing re-joining next time will be about as popular as chlamydia.

    There is not a snowballs chance in hell the Tories will want to re-open only wounds on Europe.
    Labour didn't want to discuss Europe this time - they sure won't next time.

    The Lib Dems may decide to fight on a rejoin policy but even they will probably want some breathing space before getting into that.
    I think that you are right that people want to put this behind them. Even I do, and I am what it think is usually referred to as a "diehard Remainer". The question is whether that will be possible, given that all aspects of our economic performance and our international relations will continue to be seen through the prism of Brexit. There is a good chance that the process of leaving the Single Market will be the occasion of considerable economic pain, and then the question of whether Brexit is a good idea will inevitably come to the fore, even if there are no prospects of rejoining (and I agree there are no prospects of that). I for one will certainly not hold back from saying "I told you so".
    The media may see it through the prism of Brexit, but I don't know if voters will. Even if they do, they may feel it's a price worth paying.

    I think we're out for good now. The best we can hope for is a deal with the EU.
    I think we will rejoin in about 20 years, that will be long enough for a stubborn country like ours to admit we fucked up. Scotland of course will probably rejoin sooner than that. I expect we will get a deal with the EU by year end but it will be a bare bones FTA that keeps the lorries running on the M20 but doesn't do much to foster continued economic integration with the Continent.
  • ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ian Blackford sitting in Dennis Skinner’s old seat.....as leader of the third largest contingent of MPs I suppose it makes sense...or does it by tradition go to the longest serving opposition MP?

    Either way we’ve traded one tedious windbag for another...

    You are a ray of sunshine for Scottish prospects
    Ships?
    Trains?
    Planes?
    Schools?
    Hospitals?

    No wonder she doesn't want to talk about the day job....

    (Joking apart, Robertson was a much better parliamentarian than the "crofter" (sic))
    I think, whatever our politics, we all agree Angus Robertson was impressive. It’s a shame he looks lost to politics.
    I asked a few days ago whether the SNP's absolutist stance on the HoL might be unwise - of course, absolutists know only one answer - but there are talented SNP politicians no longer in politics and that's a pity. Even if I don't like them it keeps others on their toes....

  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,701

    MikeL said:

    Unbelievably there is no mention today at all of implementing Boundary changes or introducing a Bill such that the Boundary Commission does its next review with 650 MPs and speed up next review so it definitely gets done in time for next GE.

    See link - pages 126 and 127 - for full details of plans re "Constitution and democracy"

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853886/Queen_s_Speech_December_2019_-_background_briefing_notes.pdf

    Both Cameron and May failed to get this through. It is simply breathtaking that Boris should take any risk with this. A Bill should be passed immediately returning to 650 MPs and for Boundary Commission to then start review (which takes over 2 years to complete) immediately such that Boundary Commission then reports in 2022 - not September 2023 as currently scheduled which is cutting it far too fine.

    Why on Earth would Boris risk angering his own MPs by cutting their seats?
    From a tactical perspective, it's not quite so clear-cut that a boundary review would worj to the Conservatives' advantage than it used to be. It used to be that the Tory shires and suburbs grew, the Labour cities and industrial towns shrank. Now it is the Labour cities which are growing - Manchester and Liverpool will probably both merit an extra seat by the next election; London, in particular inner London, continues to grow and grow; and Labour's small industrial towns are increasingly favouring the Conservatives. There are probably advantages to yhe Tories in doing it - the Welsh valleys, for example, are over represented - but it's nothing like the advantage it once was.
  • MikeL said:

    Unbelievably there is no mention today at all of implementing Boundary changes or introducing a Bill such that the Boundary Commission does its next review with 650 MPs and speed up next review so it definitely gets done in time for next GE.

    See link - pages 126 and 127 - for full details of plans re "Constitution and democracy"

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853886/Queen_s_Speech_December_2019_-_background_briefing_notes.pdf

    Both Cameron and May failed to get this through. It is simply breathtaking that Boris should take any risk with this. A Bill should be passed immediately returning to 650 MPs and for Boundary Commission to then start review (which takes over 2 years to complete) immediately such that Boundary Commission then reports in 2022 - not September 2023 as currently scheduled which is cutting it far too fine.

    From memory a bill would be needed if the intention was to go back to 650 MPs but if the intention is to accept the Boundary Commission's report (which hasn't been voted on yet I think) a simple vote to approve that is sufficient. No legislation necessary.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 25,247
    edited December 2019
    MikeL said:

    Unbelievably there is no mention today at all of implementing Boundary changes or introducing a Bill such that the Boundary Commission does its next review with 650 MPs and speed up next review so it definitely gets done in time for next GE.

    See link - pages 126 and 127 - for full details of plans re "Constitution and democracy"

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853886/Queen_s_Speech_December_2019_-_background_briefing_notes.pdf

    Both Cameron and May failed to get this through. It is simply breathtaking that Boris should take any risk with this. A Bill should be passed immediately returning to 650 MPs and for Boundary Commission to then start review (which takes over 2 years to complete) immediately such that Boundary Commission then reports in 2022 - not September 2023 as currently scheduled which is cutting it far too fine.

    The Boundary Commissions have already reported, a year ago, but nothing happened because of the Brexit mess paralysing Parliament.

    The proposals can be nodded through tomorrow, on 600 seats.

    https://boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 26,595
    Whoops.

    Not all areas of the country have decent broadband. To tackle this the Government has introduced the Universal Service Obligation of 10 megabits per second. This is due to come into force in March next year and will give every home and business the legal right to request a decent connection up to a Reasonable Cost Threshold of £3,400 per premise.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 26,595
    Interesting to note they are again bringing forward the HS2 Crewe branch. Even though they say that’s ‘without prejudice’ to Oakervee, that’s a fairly broad hint as to what will happen next.
  • Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    That all depends on whether Brexit works or not. Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    That may be the case however for the vast majority of people I think there will a desire to put this behind us and not have to think about it again for a long time. I think any party proposing re-joining next time will be about as popular as chlamydia.

    There is not a snowballs chance in hell the Tories will want to re-open only wounds on Europe.
    Labour didn't want to discuss Europe this time - they sure won't next time.

    The Lib Dems may decide to fight on a rejoin policy but even they will probably want some breathing space before getting into that.
    I think that you are right that people want to put this behind them. Even I do, and I am what it think is usually referred to as a "diehard Remainer". The question is whether that will be possible, given that all aspects of our economic performance and our international relations will continue to be seen through the prism of Brexit. There is a good chance that the process of leaving the Single Market will be the occasion of considerable economic pain, and then the question of whether Brexit is a good idea will inevitably come to the fore, even if there are no prospects of rejoining (and I agree there are no prospects of that). I for one will certainly not hold back from saying "I told you so".
    There is a world of difference between saying "I told you so" and actively campaigning to rejoin.

    Once we're out I can't see a serious campaign to rejoin beginning until the 2030s at the very least if then. A decade to see how Brexit pans out and put these last few years behind us. If by then its looking like a mistake it would be reasonable to campaign to rejoin.
  • rkrkrk said:

    Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not the same as a bereavement because you can't bring someone back from the dead but there is going to be a persistent and committed rejoin campaign.

    I doubt it very much.

    There will be a minor campaign of cranks. The cranks may be committed but I doubt they will be persistently relevant. In the real world most other people will move to other issues.
    That all depends on whether Brexit works or not. Any economic pain will be attributed to Brexit.
    That may be the case however for the vast majority of people I think there will a desire to put this behind us and not have to think about it again for a long time. I think any party proposing re-joining next time will be about as popular as chlamydia.

    There is not a snowballs chance in hell the Tories will want to re-open only wounds on Europe.
    Labour didn't want to discuss Europe this time - they sure won't next time.

    The Lib Dems may decide to fight on a rejoin policy but even they will probably want some breathing space before getting into that.
    I think that you are right that people want to put this behind them. Even I do, and I am what it think is usually referred to as a "diehard Remainer". The question is whether that will be possible, given that all aspects of our economic performance and our international relations will continue to be seen through the prism of Brexit. There is a good chance that the process of leaving the Single Market will be the occasion of considerable economic pain, and then the question of whether Brexit is a good idea will inevitably come to the fore, even if there are no prospects of rejoining (and I agree there are no prospects of that). I for one will certainly not hold back from saying "I told you so".
    The media may see it through the prism of Brexit, but I don't know if voters will. Even if they do, they may feel it's a price worth paying.

    I think we're out for good now. The best we can hope for is a deal with the EU.
    I think we will rejoin in about 20 years, that will be long enough for a stubborn country like ours to admit we fucked up. Scotland of course will probably rejoin sooner than that. I expect we will get a deal with the EU by year end but it will be a bare bones FTA that keeps the lorries running on the M20 but doesn't do much to foster continued economic integration with the Continent.
    In our globalised world why do we want economic integration with just one Continent?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 69,732
    The Senate will almost certainly vote not to convict Trump and if anything his poll ratings have improved since the impeachment process began
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 1,398
    Yes; heard that as it went out live, and thought: If that's how she deals with nice Nick Robinson bowling her easy ones because she's new and it's early morning, how will she cope with the House of Commons and Andrew Neil?

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 26,595
    Hell’s bells. And she’s a member of the NEC?

    That’s truly frightening. If that’s Labour’s future, they have no future.
  • Sandpit said:

    MikeL said:

    Unbelievably there is no mention today at all of implementing Boundary changes or introducing a Bill such that the Boundary Commission does its next review with 650 MPs and speed up next review so it definitely gets done in time for next GE.

    See link - pages 126 and 127 - for full details of plans re "Constitution and democracy"

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853886/Queen_s_Speech_December_2019_-_background_briefing_notes.pdf

    Both Cameron and May failed to get this through. It is simply breathtaking that Boris should take any risk with this. A Bill should be passed immediately returning to 650 MPs and for Boundary Commission to then start review (which takes over 2 years to complete) immediately such that Boundary Commission then reports in 2022 - not September 2023 as currently scheduled which is cutting it far too fine.

    The Boundary Commissions have already reported, a year ago, but nothing happened because of the Brexit mess paralysing Parliament.

    The proposals can be nodded through tomorrow, on 600 seats.

    https://boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/
    So by keeping quiet they may slip it through (until MPs recognise their own predicament..)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 57,993
    Off topic - Fancy something a bit different ?

    My friend's book has been released. Supernatural encounters in early medieval England

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Supernatural-Encounters-Restless-Medieval-c-1050-1450/dp/1138361747
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 1,398
    edited December 2019
    Sandpit said:

    MikeL said:

    Unbelievably there is no mention today at all of implementing Boundary changes or introducing a Bill such that the Boundary Commission does its next review with 650 MPs and speed up next review so it definitely gets done in time for next GE.

    See link - pages 126 and 127 - for full details of plans re "Constitution and democracy"

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853886/Queen_s_Speech_December_2019_-_background_briefing_notes.pdf

    Both Cameron and May failed to get this through. It is simply breathtaking that Boris should take any risk with this. A Bill should be passed immediately returning to 650 MPs and for Boundary Commission to then start review (which takes over 2 years to complete) immediately such that Boundary Commission then reports in 2022 - not September 2023 as currently scheduled which is cutting it far too fine.

    The Boundary Commissions have already reported, a year ago, but nothing happened because of the Brexit mess paralysing Parliament.

    The proposals can be nodded through tomorrow, on 600 seats.

    https://boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/
    Hands up all the new Tory MPs who want their seat abolished. OTOH a reform in Scotland on the basis of current over representation and devolution of powers to their own parliament....how about 20 fewer Scottish seats in exchange for Scotland having entire responsibility for Scottish taxation?

  • eekeek Posts: 7,096



    In our globalised world why do we want economic integration with just one Continent?

    Because in a world with 3 large trading blocks (US, Asia, Europe) - all separated by transport issues (although China is building cross continent paths to Europe) you probably need to be part of one of those blocks

    Now I'm happy to be wrong but I suspect the UK is too large to survive by itself the way Switzerland and Singapore can.
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