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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov’s first post GE2019 poll has the Tories 20% ahead

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 19,429
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico67 said:

    I’d have been happy for a delay to 5G and the UK sorting this out with other more trusted partners .

    What a shameful decision by this government who have wanked on about sovereignty and now have handed a large chunk of that to China !

    So you accuse the National Security Counsel of handing sovereignty over to China when in truth you really are trying to use the decision as an attack on Boris as you hate Brexit
    You are ignoring the fact that Huawei has been classified as a high risk vendor. Quite why we should all be so relaxed about involving such a vendor in our infrastructure I’m not sure. The idea that capping market share at 35% will mitigate the risk strikes me as laughably naive, as does the idea that there can be a clear demarcation between core and non-core with regard to such a network.
    What;s the alternative? I'm sure Boris would love to have given the Americans the business if they had offered an alternative. Answer came there none.

    Its a bit like a supplier of motorbikes complaining when someone buys a car.

    Why didn;t you choose our motorbikes?

    err...we wanted a car and you don;t make them....
    Ask those countries not going with Huawei what they are doing. Maybe even work with them. Conveniently some of them are in the Commonwealth which so many of Boris’s fan club are usually praising to the skies.
    Accepting a poorer service, as Australia has done for some years now, having kept Huawei out of the network previously.
    And screwed up its immediate plans to upgrade the network:
    Australia’s decision led to the immediate collapse of a multi-billion-dollar telecommunications project in Australia belonging to TPG, a US corporation, which had already invested hundreds of millions of dollars based on agreements with Huawei...

    The whole article is well worth reading:
    https://www.iiss.org/publications/strategic-comments/2019/australia-huawei-and-5g
    Thanks. Will read later.
    The issue to me is this: if this is such an important decision then it is more important to get it right than do it in a rushed way with a vendor which even the government describes as high risk.
    Agreed. May was asleep at the wheel on this.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 25,352
    So, is the PB consensus that Boris was right about Huawein pizzas?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 19,429

    Can Huawei actually source all the components needed to supply this kit if the US blacklists them?

    Probably.
    They've been both stockpiling, and second sourcing for some time. I'm no expert on the industry, but that has been widely reported.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 29,102

    Scotland not really getting on board with the Learn to Stop Worrying and Love Brexit plan.

    It seems that the UK as a whole remains unconvinced.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    edited January 28
    Nigelb said:

    It is the future that is more interesting. The fact that Huawei has a lead and there are not enough rival suppliers is not a situation that the purchasers of this kit are happy with. They have been working together as an industry via the OpenRAN project to produce open source software to run on generic hardware. They are just not there now for 5G. If the RoW does not want China kit then they need to make sure that OpenRAN is ready for 6G.

    Hence the 35% limit, which those most exercised by the decision seem to be overlooking.

    I didn't vote for this government, and I don't like it at all, but the decision is at the very least defensible.
    I agree roll out Huawei kit to the non sensitive parts and tell all the other suppliers to get their act together and 65% of the business is there for you. The alternative is to let China have 5G earlier than us so there economy will benefit and they will get the lead on developing 5G apps and services.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 25,352
    Nigelb said:

    Can Huawei actually source all the components needed to supply this kit if the US blacklists them?

    Probably.
    They've been both stockpiling, and second sourcing for some time. I'm no expert on the industry, but that has been widely reported.
    I suspect that it might depend on how heavily the US leans on non-US suppliers.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 10,714

    Pulpstar said:

    As they say in Newcastle - Huawei with the lads.

    I thought it was Huawei'n'shite.....?
    Haddaway'n'shite
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 33,383
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Like I said, to govern is to choose from 51:49 choices.
    Or in this case, to fudge.
    From my reading its not as if there were alternative providers queueing up to offer a decent alternative.

    The bigger question is surely why that is.
    Is that actually correct - that there are no alternatives? What are Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Vietnam and Korea doing then?
    There are no current alternatives otherwise the argument over Huawei would not arise
    There are - Ericsson for example (Telstra, Australia) but I've heard they have neither the capacity nor technology to match Huawei. Further, a lot of the UK 4G network is built with Huawei and 5G is built on top of that.

    They cannot match Huawei currently - especially on the capacity side. The tech is actually pretty good from what I have been told. The issue for the UK is that 5G is going to change a lot of the ways in which a lot of business is done in multiple industries - henece the term 4IR (fourth industrial revolution). If we want to be on the leading edge of that, we need to be developing our infrastructure now. If we wait, we will be followers with others already having decided how things will be done. We are where we are because, the US, the EU, the UK and other Western governments failed to understand 5G's potential and did nothing to create an institutional and policy-making framework within which our world class companies could thrive and develop the solutions that Huawei has. This is an entirely self-inflicted wound.
    Except that the UK was never really in the game of developing such kit, was it ?
    Otherwise, agreed...
    ...Though "create an institutional and policy making framework within etc..." begs rather a large number of questions.

    The UK was in the game as part of the EU, but like all other member states we did not realise what was happening and left it all to the Commisison, which perenially goes in very different directions at the same time on technology policy issues (see Competition v Internal Market, for example). This is not a Brexit point, merely an observaiton that we had the chance to help shape the future and did not take it. Now, we will have less say but in reality that will make little difference. At least today's decsion gives our businesses a chance to be leaders rather than followers.

  • You already can have 5G phones where I live.

    What am I missing here?

    What infrastructure is missing that is needed to roll 5G out more widely ?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 18,155

    Scotland not really getting on board with the Learn to Stop Worrying and Love Brexit plan.

    It seems that the UK as a whole remains unconvinced.
    If only the bongs had been sorted it out, it might have been a turning point for the national(sic) psyche.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 29,102
    Unbridled capitalism hasn't changed since the Opium Wars:

  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 1,271

    Scotland not really getting on board with the Learn to Stop Worrying and Love Brexit plan.

    I guess it implies a 27% base for the Tories next year though?
  • Why HS2 is neededAt the moment the UK railway network is terribly full, the WCML mostly with it being the busiest mixed (commuter, regional, inter city and freight) railway on the planet, that is volume of trains per hour using the tracks cannot be matched anywhere.

    This causes all sorts of problems, as soon as one train is running late it will inevitably have a knock on effect on the subsequent trains, there is no spare capacity on the lines for the late runners to not adversely impact on other services.

    Eventually the ripple effect will become bad enough to warrant cancellations to enable the service to be brought back to the timetable.

    That is a direct consequence of the over crowding on the tracks of the WCML and is felt all along from Euston and into all the major cities that the line serves.

    Additionally this impacts on services that only use the WCML for a short period, spreading across the wider network.

    Best way to fix this ? Add capacity to the network to enable the service to recover and have slack to deal with late running services.

    Now the tube runs trains about every 1minute on some lines, this is possible because all the trains run at the same speed and stop at the same stations, the headways are identical.

    Best way of adding as much capacity to the WCML is to do the same, have as similar services as possible using the line as possible operating at as similar speed as possible, ideally take away the high speed inter city services that have massive stopping distances and eat into track capacity leaving behind the slower commuter and freight services.

    This bring you to HS2, the best way of improving the existing services is to add additional capacity to the existing railway, the best way of doing that is moving the higher speed trains away and leaving the existing network for commuting services.

    The alternative, trying to add this capacity to the existing network was tried about 15 years ago with the WCML upgrade scheme that added very little extra capacity for great cost, the alternatives some are suggesting would seethe WCML and ECML closed every weekend for the next 14 years and would add a tiny fraction of the capacity that HS2 will deliver to the existing networkYes it is expensive, but it will last hundreds of years and would not seem remotely as expensive if we have as a nation being building this for the last 30 years like many other European countries.

    If HS2 isn't the answer to the issues facing the railways, I am certain the next answer will be incredibly similar.

    It’s not about the speed, speed speed,
    We don’t need the speed, speed, speed,
    We just want to increase capacity
    Forget about the price tag...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 33,383

    Nigelb said:

    Can Huawei actually source all the components needed to supply this kit if the US blacklists them?

    Probably.
    They've been both stockpiling, and second sourcing for some time. I'm no expert on the industry, but that has been widely reported.
    I suspect that it might depend on how heavily the US leans on non-US suppliers.

    Very heavily, I suspect.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 13,787

    Our national security may be at risk, but at least people will be able to download porn ten times as fast.

    Were all Commie spies now!!!
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 5,505
    The current Windsor panto has Marti Webb playing Empress Huawei.

    image
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 25,352

    Nigelb said:

    Can Huawei actually source all the components needed to supply this kit if the US blacklists them?

    Probably.
    They've been both stockpiling, and second sourcing for some time. I'm no expert on the industry, but that has been widely reported.
    I suspect that it might depend on how heavily the US leans on non-US suppliers.

    Very heavily, I suspect.

    Yes, that's my feeling.
  • Nigelb said:

    While it's hardly the judge of a wise policy, it does seem to have pissed off all the right people.
    Works for Brexit..
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 33,383

    Nigelb said:

    It is the future that is more interesting. The fact that Huawei has a lead and there are not enough rival suppliers is not a situation that the purchasers of this kit are happy with. They have been working together as an industry via the OpenRAN project to produce open source software to run on generic hardware. They are just not there now for 5G. If the RoW does not want China kit then they need to make sure that OpenRAN is ready for 6G.

    Hence the 35% limit, which those most exercised by the decision seem to be overlooking.

    I didn't vote for this government, and I don't like it at all, but the decision is at the very least defensible.
    I agree roll out Huawei kit to the non sensitive parts and tell all the other suppliers to get their act together and 65% of the business is there for you. The alternative is to let China have 5G earlier than us so there economy will benefit and they will get the lead on developing 5G apps and services.

    It's there already:

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-10/31/c_138518626.htm

  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 4,846

    HYUFD said:
    Goodness, the approach of Brexit isn't making Leavers any less mad or conspiracist, is it?
    It is making them more so, if that were at all possible. That said I think they need to own this. I suspect it might be a prelude to Johnson cosying up to China. He might see it as the way to plug the inevitable trade problems caused by Brexit. He has probably calculated that Trump will not be in the Whitehouse beyond the next Pres election, so will say he is being a global statesman by being nicer to the despotic Chinese
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,476
    edited January 28

    Nigelb said:

    Can Huawei actually source all the components needed to supply this kit if the US blacklists them?

    Probably.
    They've been both stockpiling, and second sourcing for some time. I'm no expert on the industry, but that has been widely reported.
    I suspect that it might depend on how heavily the US leans on non-US suppliers.

    Very heavily, I suspect.

    Could the UK / US etc taking a leaf out of the Chinese playbook of not setting a level playing field? China are famous for restricting foreign companies activities, letting them have some access to their domestic, so their people get the benefits, while in the meantime ripping off what works and ultimately undercutting them / forcing them out the market.

    Allowing them 35% of the network, means 65% is up for grabs if non-Chinese companies get their act together. Means we get 5G without delay, in order to let our tech companies develop new applications / services for networks that will be rolling out around the world, while not letting the Chinese have total domination of the market.

    Certainly a high risk approach given how untrustworthy Huawei are.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 18,155

    Scotland not really getting on board with the Learn to Stop Worrying and Love Brexit plan.

    I guess it implies a 27% base for the Tories next year though?
    High water mark I'd say, the SCons have been explicitly Leave for a couple of years and it hasn't done them much good. There was polling somewhere that suggested that SNP Leavers tend to stick with the SNP.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 8,013

    Silly old Hodge - the relevance of that 'narrative', if it ever had one, died with the GE result. The question now is, has Boris managed to antagonise Donald over the one issue where Donald actually has a point?
    This is 'standing on our own two feet' - we don't need the EU, we don't need the US, we don't need China (oh wait a minute).
  • Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Like I said, to govern is to choose from 51:49 choices.
    Or in this case, to fudge.
    From my reading its not as if there were alternative providers queueing up to offer a decent alternative.

    The bigger question is surely why that is.
    Is that actually correct - that there are no alternatives? What are Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Vietnam and Korea doing then?
    Korea is something of a special case in that it has its own domestic industry to support. From an economic POV, it is entirely sensible for them.
    The cost to our tech sector in delaying 5G, given the areas where we do actually compete, might be considerable. I'm not convinced that's the case for the others on your list.
    Do you think that such a detailed analysis of all the pros and cons and options and costs has actually been done?

    As far as I have read, the only analysis has been on what the risks are and whether they could be mitigated which seems like a a very narrow question to ask.

    Maybe a FOI request and/or a halfway competent opposition could ask some of these searching questions.
    The searching question to ask is, surely, why Western companies cannot match Huawei.

    Maybe Boris should ask his critics what they expected him to do when nobody else is offering this kit.

    Coordinated highly funded state action combined with military technology, a complete lack of integrity in regards to the intellectual copyright, and monopoly authority can get you ahead.

    It is a serious question posed. We seemed to be under the illusion that we the intelligent pluralist democratic nations might be unable to compete with the manufacturing ability of China, but they need the intellectual outcomes that a free society creates to develop.

    China’s marketing board should in Alan partridge style come up with a new slogan “there’s more to China than tat”, because they can do the cheap low tech stuff and the top end stuff.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,770
    Re WCML substitution/addition, In much the same way that environmentalists badly framed the initial climate debate by referring to “global warming” rather than “adverse climate change” and allow the retard voices to shout, “it’s cold so there’s no GW”, so Adonis (never knowingly right) et al initially talked about speed and not capacity so framing the conversation around getting to London 10 minutes quicker for £bn. Adonis was never elected to Parliament and it shows.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,197
    edited January 28
    Nigelb said:

    It is the future that is more interesting. The fact that Huawei has a lead and there are not enough rival suppliers is not a situation that the purchasers of this kit are happy with. They have been working together as an industry via the OpenRAN project to produce open source software to run on generic hardware. They are just not there now for 5G. If the RoW does not want China kit then they need to make sure that OpenRAN is ready for 6G.

    Hence the 35% limit, which those most exercised by the decision seem to be overlooking.

    I didn't vote for this government, and I don't like it at all, but the decision is at the very least defensible.
    The 35% limit is also subject to review.

    So the message to those supplying the 65% is: get your arse in gear and you can have the rest too.....

    But if the 65% isn't there, how does that work?

    And if the 65% is there - which is the working assumption as China only gets awarded 35% - then why can't they have 100%?

    Confused.......
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 20,862

    Nigelb said:

    It is the future that is more interesting. The fact that Huawei has a lead and there are not enough rival suppliers is not a situation that the purchasers of this kit are happy with. They have been working together as an industry via the OpenRAN project to produce open source software to run on generic hardware. They are just not there now for 5G. If the RoW does not want China kit then they need to make sure that OpenRAN is ready for 6G.

    Hence the 35% limit, which those most exercised by the decision seem to be overlooking.

    I didn't vote for this government, and I don't like it at all, but the decision is at the very least defensible.
    I agree roll out Huawei kit to the non sensitive parts and tell all the other suppliers to get their act together and 65% of the business is there for you. The alternative is to let China have 5G earlier than us so there economy will benefit and they will get the lead on developing 5G apps and services.
    I am definitely no expert on this but I did listen to the very extended interview that the former Australian PM gave over this and also to a lot of interviews and commentaries by those who are in the know.

    In all cases they were emphasising the fact that it is no longer possible to separate sensitive from non sensitive parts of the 5G system. There is no core and periphery now. It is all core. Under those circumstances surely the defence being made by Boris is built on sand. Either we exclude Huawei completely or we are letting them into everything whether we like it or not.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,476
    Tencent is the next Chinese mega-corp we have to worry about. Over the past 10 years they have been buying up larges stakes in loads of Western companies, and dominant the market in China for many internet related services like social media and payment processing. And they are increasing pumping massive resources into AI.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 33,383

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Like I said, to govern is to choose from 51:49 choices.
    Or in this case, to fudge.
    From my reading its not as if there were alternative providers queueing up to offer a decent alternative.

    The bigger question is surely why that is.
    Is that actually correct - that there are no alternatives? What are Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Vietnam and Korea doing then?
    Korea is something of a special case in that it has its own domestic industry to support. From an economic POV, it is entirely sensible for them.
    The cost to our tech sector in delaying 5G, given the areas where we do actually compete, might be considerable. I'm not convinced that's the case for the others on your list.
    Do you think that such a detailed analysis of all the pros and cons and options and costs has actually been done?

    As far as I have read, the only analysis has been on what the risks are and whether they could be mitigated which seems like a a very narrow question to ask.

    Maybe a FOI request and/or a halfway competent opposition could ask some of these searching questions.
    The searching question to ask is, surely, why Western companies cannot match Huawei.

    Maybe Boris should ask his critics what they expected him to do when nobody else is offering this kit.

    Coordinated highly funded state action combined with military technology, a complete lack of integrity in regards to the intellectual copyright, and monopoly authority can get you ahead.

    It is a serious question posed. We seemed to be under the illusion that we the intelligent pluralist democratic nations might be unable to compete with the manufacturing ability of China, but they need the intellectual outcomes that a free society creates to develop.

    China’s marketing board should in Alan partridge style come up with a new slogan “there’s more to China than tat”, because they can do the cheap low tech stuff and the top end stuff.

    If Huawei is infringing any IP in the infrastructure it builds in the UK then it can be sued and injuncted from deploying it. The Supreme Court is actually considering a case involving both Huawei and ZTE at the moment which, depending on the outcome, could well see the UK become a global centre of 5G-related patent litigation.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 19,429

    Nigelb said:

    It is the future that is more interesting. The fact that Huawei has a lead and there are not enough rival suppliers is not a situation that the purchasers of this kit are happy with. They have been working together as an industry via the OpenRAN project to produce open source software to run on generic hardware. They are just not there now for 5G. If the RoW does not want China kit then they need to make sure that OpenRAN is ready for 6G.

    Hence the 35% limit, which those most exercised by the decision seem to be overlooking.

    I didn't vote for this government, and I don't like it at all, but the decision is at the very least defensible.
    The 35% limit is also subject to review.

    So the message to those supplying the 65% is: get your arse in gear and you can have the rest too.....

    But if the 65% isn't there, how does that work?

    And if the 65% is there - which is the working assumption as China only gets awarded 35% - then why can't they have 100%?

    Confused.......
    Perhaps some quiet commitments have been offered to pacify Trump ?
  • Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Like I said, to govern is to choose from 51:49 choices.
    Or in this case, to fudge.
    From my reading its not as if there were alternative providers queueing up to offer a decent alternative.

    The bigger question is surely why that is.
    Is that actually correct - that there are no alternatives? What are Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Vietnam and Korea doing then?
    Korea is something of a special case in that it has its own domestic industry to support. From an economic POV, it is entirely sensible for them.
    The cost to our tech sector in delaying 5G, given the areas where we do actually compete, might be considerable. I'm not convinced that's the case for the others on your list.
    Do you think that such a detailed analysis of all the pros and cons and options and costs has actually been done?

    As far as I have read, the only analysis has been on what the risks are and whether they could be mitigated which seems like a a very narrow question to ask.

    Maybe a FOI request and/or a halfway competent opposition could ask some of these searching questions.
    The searching question to ask is, surely, why Western companies cannot match Huawei.

    Maybe Boris should ask his critics what they expected him to do when nobody else is offering this kit.

    Coordinated highly funded state action combined with military technology, a complete lack of integrity in regards to the intellectual copyright, and monopoly authority can get you ahead.

    It is a serious question posed. We seemed to be under the illusion that we the intelligent pluralist democratic nations might be unable to compete with the manufacturing ability of China, but they need the intellectual outcomes that a free society creates to develop.

    China’s marketing board should in Alan partridge style come up with a new slogan “there’s more to China than tat”, because they can do the cheap low tech stuff and the top end stuff.

    If Huawei is infringing any IP in the infrastructure it builds in the UK then it can be sued and injuncted from deploying it. The Supreme Court is actually considering a case involving both Huawei and ZTE at the moment which, depending on the outcome, could well see the UK become a global centre of 5G-related patent litigation.

    Infringement can come from reverse engineering.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Nigelb said:

    It is the future that is more interesting. The fact that Huawei has a lead and there are not enough rival suppliers is not a situation that the purchasers of this kit are happy with. They have been working together as an industry via the OpenRAN project to produce open source software to run on generic hardware. They are just not there now for 5G. If the RoW does not want China kit then they need to make sure that OpenRAN is ready for 6G.

    Hence the 35% limit, which those most exercised by the decision seem to be overlooking.

    I didn't vote for this government, and I don't like it at all, but the decision is at the very least defensible.
    I agree roll out Huawei kit to the non sensitive parts and tell all the other suppliers to get their act together and 65% of the business is there for you. The alternative is to let China have 5G earlier than us so there economy will benefit and they will get the lead on developing 5G apps and services.
    I am definitely no expert on this but I did listen to the very extended interview that the former Australian PM gave over this and also to a lot of interviews and commentaries by those who are in the know.

    In all cases they were emphasising the fact that it is no longer possible to separate sensitive from non sensitive parts of the 5G system. There is no core and periphery now. It is all core. Under those circumstances surely the defence being made by Boris is built on sand. Either we exclude Huawei completely or we are letting them into everything whether we like it or not.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51178376

    The above is a good article on the subject. Today there is still a core and non core, it is envisaged that over time it will be possible to do core functions on non-core kit.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 20,862

    Nigelb said:

    It is the future that is more interesting. The fact that Huawei has a lead and there are not enough rival suppliers is not a situation that the purchasers of this kit are happy with. They have been working together as an industry via the OpenRAN project to produce open source software to run on generic hardware. They are just not there now for 5G. If the RoW does not want China kit then they need to make sure that OpenRAN is ready for 6G.

    Hence the 35% limit, which those most exercised by the decision seem to be overlooking.

    I didn't vote for this government, and I don't like it at all, but the decision is at the very least defensible.
    I agree roll out Huawei kit to the non sensitive parts and tell all the other suppliers to get their act together and 65% of the business is there for you. The alternative is to let China have 5G earlier than us so there economy will benefit and they will get the lead on developing 5G apps and services.
    I am definitely no expert on this but I did listen to the very extended interview that the former Australian PM gave over this and also to a lot of interviews and commentaries by those who are in the know.

    In all cases they were emphasising the fact that it is no longer possible to separate sensitive from non sensitive parts of the 5G system. There is no core and periphery now. It is all core. Under those circumstances surely the defence being made by Boris is built on sand. Either we exclude Huawei completely or we are letting them into everything whether we like it or not.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51178376

    The above is a good article on the subject. Today there is still a core and non core, it is envisaged that over time it will be possible to do core functions on non-core kit.
    Cheers sir. I will take a read.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 25,352
    On a lighter note (complete with its own need for a correction):

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 10,714
    If you don't want to know the results, look Huawei now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 19,429

    Nigelb said:

    It is the future that is more interesting. The fact that Huawei has a lead and there are not enough rival suppliers is not a situation that the purchasers of this kit are happy with. They have been working together as an industry via the OpenRAN project to produce open source software to run on generic hardware. They are just not there now for 5G. If the RoW does not want China kit then they need to make sure that OpenRAN is ready for 6G.

    Hence the 35% limit, which those most exercised by the decision seem to be overlooking.

    I didn't vote for this government, and I don't like it at all, but the decision is at the very least defensible.
    I agree roll out Huawei kit to the non sensitive parts and tell all the other suppliers to get their act together and 65% of the business is there for you. The alternative is to let China have 5G earlier than us so there economy will benefit and they will get the lead on developing 5G apps and services.
    I am definitely no expert on this but I did listen to the very extended interview that the former Australian PM gave over this and also to a lot of interviews and commentaries by those who are in the know.

    In all cases they were emphasising the fact that it is no longer possible to separate sensitive from non sensitive parts of the 5G system. There is no core and periphery now. It is all core. Under those circumstances surely the defence being made by Boris is built on sand. Either we exclude Huawei completely or we are letting them into everything whether we like it or not.
    The issue is, I think, more one of dependency than security ?
    Read the link I posted below for more perspective on the Australian decision.

    What seems unavoidable is that we will have to find better ways of coming to terms with the fact of China becoming both the world's largest manufacturer, and probably the world's largest market.
    A policy of total exclusion is unlikely to be a successful one in the long run.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 33,383

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Like I said, to govern is to choose from 51:49 choices.
    Or in this case, to fudge.
    From my reading its not as if there were alternative providers queueing up to offer a decent alternative.

    The bigger question is surely why that is.
    Is that actually correct - that there are no alternatives? What are Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Vietnam and Korea doing then?
    Korea ithem.
    The cost to our tech sector in delaying 5G, given the areas where we do actually compete, might be considerable. I'm not convinced that's the case for the others on your list.
    Do you think that such a detailed analysis of all the pros and cons and options and costs has actually been done?

    As far as I have read, the only analysis has been on what the risks are and whether they could be mitigated which seems like a a very narrow question to ask.

    Maybe a FOI request and/or a halfway competent opposition could ask some of these searching questions.
    The searching question to ask is, surely, why Western companies cannot match Huawei.

    Maybe Boris should ask his critics what they expected him to do when nobody else is offering this kit.

    Coordinated highly funded state action combined with military technology, a complete lack of integrity in regards to the intellectual copyright, and monopoly authority can get you ahead.

    It develop.

    China’s marketing board should in Alan partridge style come up with a new slogan “there’s more to China than tat”, because they can do the cheap low tech stuff and the top end stuff.

    If Huawei is infringing any IP in the infrastructure it builds in the UK then it can be sued and injuncted from deploying it. The Supreme Court is actually considering a case involving both Huawei and ZTE at the moment which, depending on the outcome, could well see the UK become a global centre of 5G-related patent litigation.

    Infringement can come from reverse engineering.

    With regards to patents, it often does. But you do not have to prove copying to prove patent infringement, only that the invention your patent covers is being deployed by the alleged infringer. If Huawei has looked at tech and then found a workaround that is entirely legitimate.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,563
    Is it really the case that the acquiescence of the UK security services on a potential Huawei backdoor through 5G is based on Occam’s razor?

    I.e. there are other easier routes for the Chinese government to hack into the UK than this one, so they’ll use those instead, and therefore we shouldn’t worry too much about this one?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 12,992

    If you don't want to know the results, look Huawei now.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-51282927

    I bet it was China...

    Derailed freight train blocks railway line at Eastleigh
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,197
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    It is the future that is more interesting. The fact that Huawei has a lead and there are not enough rival suppliers is not a situation that the purchasers of this kit are happy with. They have been working together as an industry via the OpenRAN project to produce open source software to run on generic hardware. They are just not there now for 5G. If the RoW does not want China kit then they need to make sure that OpenRAN is ready for 6G.

    Hence the 35% limit, which those most exercised by the decision seem to be overlooking.

    I didn't vote for this government, and I don't like it at all, but the decision is at the very least defensible.
    The 35% limit is also subject to review.

    So the message to those supplying the 65% is: get your arse in gear and you can have the rest too.....

    But if the 65% isn't there, how does that work?

    And if the 65% is there - which is the working assumption as China only gets awarded 35% - then why can't they have 100%?

    Confused.......
    Perhaps some quiet commitments have been offered to pacify Trump ?
    Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 14,368

    HYUFD said:
    Goodness, the approach of Brexit isn't making Leavers any less mad or conspiracist, is it?
    Chinese interest in telecommunications = bad

    Russian interference in elections = good

    Keep up!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 38,627
    edited January 28
    How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?
    Net Well (vs Nov 19): -12 (+40)

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/pvy6e0njjl/TheTimes_VI_Results_200127_w.pdf
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 14,368

    Scotland not really getting on board with the Learn to Stop Worrying and Love Brexit plan.

    Not popular in the North of England either...
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Is it really the case that the acquiescence of the UK security services on a potential Huawei backdoor through 5G is based on Occam’s razor?

    I.e. there are other easier routes for the Chinese government to hack into the UK than this one, so they’ll use those instead, and therefore we shouldn’t worry too much about this one?

    Personally I can not believe that the combined IT expertise of the western world plus friendly nations in Asia would not find any backdoor that Huawei put in. The worry was based on the fact that these pieces of kit can have the software updated remotely by the vendor. Remove that functionality and only allow the operator to send out the updates gets around that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,476

    Is it really the case that the acquiescence of the UK security services on a potential Huawei backdoor through 5G is based on Occam’s razor?

    I.e. there are other easier routes for the Chinese government to hack into the UK than this one, so they’ll use those instead, and therefore we shouldn’t worry too much about this one?

    Personally I can not believe that the combined IT expertise of the western world plus friendly nations in Asia would not find any backdoor that Huawei put in. The worry was based on the fact that these pieces of kit can have the software updated remotely by the vendor. Remove that functionality and only allow the operator to send out the updates gets around that.
    Could be too late by the time they find it e.g.

    The attack by Chinese spies reached almost 30 U.S. companies, including Amazon and Apple, by compromising America’s technology supply chain

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,197
    Foxy said:

    Scotland not really getting on board with the Learn to Stop Worrying and Love Brexit plan.

    Not popular in the North of England either...
    You have to think "so what?". Voting wholesale for the Tories in the NE happened since the Brexit vote....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,197
    I bet the 57% who say they will not be doing anything to mark Brexit will be doing something.

    A lot of harrumphing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,476
    I presume universities won't be counted under the "sensitive" parts of the network. I mean it isn't like the Chinese haven't got form in hacking those to get crucial info e.g.

    https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/5/18251836/chinese-hackers-us-servers-universities-military-secrets-cybersecurity

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jun/06/china-behind-massive-australian-national-university-hack-intelligence-officials-say
  • Foxy said:

    Scotland not really getting on board with the Learn to Stop Worrying and Love Brexit plan.

    Not popular in the North of England either...
    What is the point. We are out on friday and everyone needs to come to terms with it
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,197
    A friend of mine has just referenced the current Chinese epidmemic as Kung Flu.

    Don't ANYBODY tell The Sun......
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 14,368

    Foxy said:

    Scotland not really getting on board with the Learn to Stop Worrying and Love Brexit plan.

    Not popular in the North of England either...
    What is the point. We are out on friday and everyone needs to come to terms with it
    The point is the long term electoral consequences.

    Buyers remorse starts Saturday.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,197
    edited January 28
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Scotland not really getting on board with the Learn to Stop Worrying and Love Brexit plan.

    Not popular in the North of England either...
    What is the point. We are out on friday and everyone needs to come to terms with it
    The point is the long term electoral consequences.

    Buyers remorse starts Saturday.
    We've been told by Remainers - for over three years - that Buyer's Remorse would kick in. Just you wait.

    Not much evidence of it kicking in as recently as December 12th.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 25,352

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Scotland not really getting on board with the Learn to Stop Worrying and Love Brexit plan.

    Not popular in the North of England either...
    What is the point. We are out on friday and everyone needs to come to terms with it
    The point is the long term electoral consequences.

    Buyers remorse starts Saturday.
    We were told by Remainers -for over three years - that Buyer's Remorse would kick in. Just you wait.

    Not much evidence of it kicking in as recently as December 12th.
    Yebbut the package hasn't arrived yet.
  • Is it really the case that the acquiescence of the UK security services on a potential Huawei backdoor through 5G is based on Occam’s razor?

    I.e. there are other easier routes for the Chinese government to hack into the UK than this one, so they’ll use those instead, and therefore we shouldn’t worry too much about this one?

    Personally I can not believe that the combined IT expertise of the western world plus friendly nations in Asia would not find any backdoor that Huawei put in. The worry was based on the fact that these pieces of kit can have the software updated remotely by the vendor. Remove that functionality and only allow the operator to send out the updates gets around that.
    But they can without too much effort use the old “internet explorer is an integrated part of the windows operating system and it’s not possible to remove it”, that all their systems need to be simultaneously updated otherwise it risks the integrity of the ecosystem.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 18,067

    A friend of mine has just referenced the current Chinese epidmemic as Kung Flu.

    Don't ANYBODY tell The Sun......

    A friend of mine has just referenced the current Chinese epidmemic as Kung Flu.

    Don't ANYBODY tell The Sun......

    We've been using snake plague.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,197

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Scotland not really getting on board with the Learn to Stop Worrying and Love Brexit plan.

    Not popular in the North of England either...
    What is the point. We are out on friday and everyone needs to come to terms with it
    The point is the long term electoral consequences.

    Buyers remorse starts Saturday.
    We were told by Remainers -for over three years - that Buyer's Remorse would kick in. Just you wait.

    Not much evidence of it kicking in as recently as December 12th.
    Yebbut the package hasn't arrived yet.
    Except Project Fear said the consequences would be brutal and instant upon voting to leave. They never said anything about sending the recession with a second class stamp...
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 14,174

    How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?
    Net Well (vs Nov 19): -12 (+40)

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/pvy6e0njjl/TheTimes_VI_Results_200127_w.pdf

    That's a quite extraordinary swing. Why was the Government's rating on this slipped by 52 net points in two months??? I'm not pro-government, but I've not noticed them doing anything differently since November (apart from winning an election, which shouldn't be unpopular in itself).
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 18,067

    How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?
    Net Well (vs Nov 19): -12 (+40)

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/pvy6e0njjl/TheTimes_VI_Results_200127_w.pdf

    That's a quite extraordinary swing. Why was the Government's rating on this slipped by 52 net points in two months??? I'm not pro-government, but I've not noticed them doing anything differently since November (apart from winning an election, which shouldn't be unpopular in itself).
    No, that's a +40 increase from last time.
  • glwglw Posts: 6,035

    Is it really the case that the acquiescence of the UK security services on a potential Huawei backdoor through 5G is based on Occam’s razor?

    I.e. there are other easier routes for the Chinese government to hack into the UK than this one, so they’ll use those instead, and therefore we shouldn’t worry too much about this one?

    Personally I can not believe that the combined IT expertise of the western world plus friendly nations in Asia would not find any backdoor that Huawei put in. The worry was based on the fact that these pieces of kit can have the software updated remotely by the vendor. Remove that functionality and only allow the operator to send out the updates gets around that.
    Could be too late by the time they find it e.g.

    The attack by Chinese spies reached almost 30 U.S. companies, including Amazon and Apple, by compromising America’s technology supply chain

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies
    AFAIK Bloomberg hasn't provided any evidence to support that claim, and many of the companies mentioned have publicly refuted it.

    Implants are one of those things people worry about, but nobody knows how common they are. One of the few publicly disclosed implants we know of was in Cisco routers and being put there by the NSA's TAO. From the country telling us you can't trust Chinese suppliers. :)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,197
    Until they encounter a brown bear on the way to the bingo. Then they'll be demanding 5G to report it pronto - and damn the Chinese spies....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 38,627
    MaxPB said:

    How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?
    Net Well (vs Nov 19): -12 (+40)

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/pvy6e0njjl/TheTimes_VI_Results_200127_w.pdf

    That's a quite extraordinary swing. Why was the Government's rating on this slipped by 52 net points in two months??? I'm not pro-government, but I've not noticed them doing anything differently since November (apart from winning an election, which shouldn't be unpopular in itself).
    No, that's a +40 increase from last time.
    Yes - it was -52 in November
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 52,911
    Mr. Eagles, surprised lynx are just 1 percentage point ahead of wolves.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 14,174
    MaxPB said:

    How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?
    Net Well (vs Nov 19): -12 (+40)

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/pvy6e0njjl/TheTimes_VI_Results_200127_w.pdf

    That's a quite extraordinary swing. Why was the Government's rating on this slipped by 52 net points in two months??? I'm not pro-government, but I've not noticed them doing anything differently since November (apart from winning an election, which shouldn't be unpopular in itself).
    No, that's a +40 increase from last time.
    Makes more sense. I don't know where the (-40) came from, then.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,476
    edited January 28

    Until they encounter a brown bear on the way to the bingo. Then they'll be demanding 5G to report it pronto - and damn the Chinese spies....
    I have encountered them.....albeit not on the way to the bingo. The closest I came was I pulled into a car park at dawn and one was attempting to smash open a "bear-proof" bin. The poor bin was taking one hell of a beating as the bear pretty much threw it around the parking lot.

    Very much like this....

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 52,911
    As an aside, bears are fascinating, and very impressive. They can run as fast as a horse, climb, swim, have a sense of smell superior to a dog, and are very dexterous as well as being incredibly strong.

    In the Middle Ages, one attempt at undermining a castle wall went poorly for the aggressors when the lord of the castle had a countermine dug, and sent his pet bear down it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,197

    Until they encounter a brown bear on the way to the bingo. Then they'll be demanding 5G to report it pronto - and damn the Chinese spies....
    I have encountered them.....albeit not on the way to the bingo. The closest I came was I pulled into a car park at dawn and one was attempting to smash open a "bear-proof" bin. The poor bin was taking one hell of a beating as the bear pretty much threw it around the parking lot.
    Down on the US-Mexico border, we went to watch the hummingbirds on some bird feeders. The guy whose home it was showed us a collection of debris in his garage of a couple of dozen of these feeders, smashed to bits. The bears climb up and chew them like sweeties, as they are full of sugar water.....
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 1,409

    MaxPB said:

    How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?
    Net Well (vs Nov 19): -12 (+40)

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/pvy6e0njjl/TheTimes_VI_Results_200127_w.pdf

    That's a quite extraordinary swing. Why was the Government's rating on this slipped by 52 net points in two months??? I'm not pro-government, but I've not noticed them doing anything differently since November (apart from winning an election, which shouldn't be unpopular in itself).
    No, that's a +40 increase from last time.
    Makes more sense. I don't know where the (-40) came from, then.
    Was -52 is now -12 so change is +40.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,476
    edited January 28

    Until they encounter a brown bear on the way to the bingo. Then they'll be demanding 5G to report it pronto - and damn the Chinese spies....
    I have encountered them.....albeit not on the way to the bingo. The closest I came was I pulled into a car park at dawn and one was attempting to smash open a "bear-proof" bin. The poor bin was taking one hell of a beating as the bear pretty much threw it around the parking lot.
    Down on the US-Mexico border, we went to watch the hummingbirds on some bird feeders. The guy whose home it was showed us a collection of debris in his garage of a couple of dozen of these feeders, smashed to bits. The bears climb up and chew them like sweeties, as they are full of sugar water.....
    I have seen in a number of National Parks in the US, where they display what is left of car doors that has been pealed back as if opening a can, as a warning not to leave food / toiletries in your car.
  • Until they encounter a brown bear on the way to the bingo. Then they'll be demanding 5G to report it pronto - and damn the Chinese spies....
    I have encountered them.....albeit not on the way to the bingo. The closest I came was I pulled into a car park at dawn and one was attempting to smash open a "bear-proof" bin. The poor bin was taking one hell of a beating as the bear pretty much threw it around the parking lot.

    Very much like this....

    Last year my wife and I were out in the car near Vancouver with our son and daughter in law when we encountered a bear right in front of us in the road. We stopped as the bear crossed and reached the verge. In our mirror we noticed a lone cyclist riding towards the bear oblivious of it's presence. It was only when he had ridden passed the bear that he seemed to realise the potential for a real problem for him. The bear did not move thankfully and we went on our way.
  • Until they encounter a brown bear on the way to the bingo. Then they'll be demanding 5G to report it pronto - and damn the Chinese spies....
    I have encountered them.....albeit not on the way to the bingo. The closest I came was I pulled into a car park at dawn and one was attempting to smash open a "bear-proof" bin. The poor bin was taking one hell of a beating as the bear pretty much threw it around the parking lot.
    Down on the US-Mexico border, we went to watch the hummingbirds on some bird feeders. The guy whose home it was showed us a collection of debris in his garage of a couple of dozen of these feeders, smashed to bits. The bears climb up and chew them like sweeties, as they are full of sugar water.....
    I have seen in a number of National Parks in the US, where they display what is left of car doors that has been pealed back as if opening a can, as a warning not to leave food / toiletries in your car.
    There is a similar story in one of the Profumo Affair books, when Stephen Ward and his companions in America (where Ward studied medicine and osteopathy) left food on their car roof, leading to a close encounter of the ursine kind.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 499
    Tom Newton Dunn suggesting the strength of tory MP feeling on Huawei is such that a commons defeat is not out of the question, as all opposition parties are anti.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,476
    edited January 28

    Until they encounter a brown bear on the way to the bingo. Then they'll be demanding 5G to report it pronto - and damn the Chinese spies....
    I have encountered them.....albeit not on the way to the bingo. The closest I came was I pulled into a car park at dawn and one was attempting to smash open a "bear-proof" bin. The poor bin was taking one hell of a beating as the bear pretty much threw it around the parking lot.

    Very much like this....

    Last year my wife and I were out in the car near Vancouver with our son and daughter in law when we encountered a bear right in front of us in the road. We stopped as the bear crossed and reached the verge. In our mirror we noticed a lone cyclist riding towards the bear oblivious of it's presence. It was only when he had ridden passed the bear that he seemed to realise the potential for a real problem for him. The bear did not move thankfully and we went on our way.
    Its the idiots that you see in places like Yellowstone who drive / run after the bears and bison as if they are at Disneyland...then get shocked when a nearly 1 tonne animal decides to turn around and headbutt them / their car.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 18,067

    Tom Newton Dunn suggesting the strength of tory MP feeling on Huawei is such that a commons defeat is not out of the question, as all opposition parties are anti.

    I don't see how it goes to a vote.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,476
    edited January 28
    Arts Council England has said it will start referring to “creative practitioners” because people feel uncomfortable with the term “artist”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/artists-rebranded-as-creative-practitioners-by-arts-council-england-hjc50r3b6

    I have a more inclusive term for Arts Council England beginning with c....
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 5,505

    Tom Newton Dunn suggesting the strength of tory MP feeling on Huawei is such that a commons defeat is not out of the question, as all opposition parties are anti.

    Boris would surely have to resign if he lost the vote - PM not trusted on the fundamental issue of national security etc. If not then, when?
  • Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 576

    Until they encounter a brown bear on the way to the bingo. Then they'll be demanding 5G to report it pronto - and damn the Chinese spies....
    I have encountered them.....albeit not on the way to the bingo. The closest I came was I pulled into a car park at dawn and one was attempting to smash open a "bear-proof" bin. The poor bin was taking one hell of a beating as the bear pretty much threw it around the parking lot.

    Very much like this....

    Last year my wife and I were out in the car near Vancouver with our son and daughter in law when we encountered a bear right in front of us in the road. We stopped as the bear crossed and reached the verge. In our mirror we noticed a lone cyclist riding towards the bear oblivious of it's presence. It was only when he had ridden passed the bear that he seemed to realise the potential for a real problem for him. The bear did not move thankfully and we went on our way.
    Its the idiots that you see in places like Yellowstone who drive / run after the bears and bison as if they are at Disneyland...then get shocked when a nearly 1 tonne animal decides to turn around and headbutt them / their car.
    The native American tribes had a prominent place in their folklore for the bear. My favourite is one of the Navajo taboos; you weren't supposed to say Shush in the mountains, otherwise bears would come after you ("Shush" is "Bear" in Navajo).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 8,473
    Yes, Johnson has the field to himself right now. And there's a feelgood factor - although not with me, I stress - that the Brexit thing is over and there is a government with a working majority instead of a paralyzed parliament. It will soon wear off.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,197

    Arts Council England has said it will start referring to “creative practitioners” because people feel uncomfortable with the term “artist”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/artists-rebranded-as-creative-practitioners-by-arts-council-england-hjc50r3b6

    I have a more inclusive term for Arts Council England beginning with c....

    "Piss-creative practitioner" will never catch on....
  • Listening to Rabb in the HOC re Huawei this subject is so complex, and so many object to it without understanding the depth of detail needed to take the correct decision
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 2,528
    edited January 28

    Until they encounter a brown bear on the way to the bingo. Then they'll be demanding 5G to report it pronto - and damn the Chinese spies....
    I have encountered them.....albeit not on the way to the bingo. The closest I came was I pulled into a car park at dawn and one was attempting to smash open a "bear-proof" bin. The poor bin was taking one hell of a beating as the bear pretty much threw it around the parking lot.

    Very much like this....

    Last year my wife and I were out in the car near Vancouver with our son and daughter in law when we encountered a bear right in front of us in the road. We stopped as the bear crossed and reached the verge. In our mirror we noticed a lone cyclist riding towards the bear oblivious of it's presence. It was only when he had ridden passed the bear that he seemed to realise the potential for a real problem for him. The bear did not move thankfully and we went on our way.
    Usually bears won't interact with humans unless they're very hungry - or the human gets too close to a mother with cubs, especially if they get between the mother and cubs. Nonetheless, I'm glad that bears are pretty rare in my part of Westchester County. Skunks and coyotes, and raccoons getting into your trash cans are the worst we usually have to put up with.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 52,911
    Mr. Urquhart, up there with that nonsense article about not discussing football at work because it excludes women (and apparently is a stepping stone to men bragging about shagging).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 17,836
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, Johnson has the field to himself right now. And there's a feelgood factor - although not with me, I stress - that the Brexit thing is over and there is a government with a working majority instead of a paralyzed parliament. It will soon wear off.

    I think that's right. All of it.
  • Listening to labour response to Raab it doesn't sound to me that they are going to oppose Huawei
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 18,155

    Listening to Rabb in the HOC re Huawei this subject is so complex, and so many object to it without understanding the depth of detail needed to take the correct decision

    I get the impression you're not including yourself in the many who don't understand the depth of detail needed to take the correct decision.
  • Listening to Rabb in the HOC re Huawei this subject is so complex, and so many object to it without understanding the depth of detail needed to take the correct decision

    I get the impression you're not including yourself in the many who don't understand the depth of detail needed to take the correct decision.
    I do not have the knowledge but I am able to listen to experts and trust the National Security Counsel to make the right call
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 19,429
    This is also quite informative:
    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-allows-huawei-to-build-parts-of-uk-5g-network/
    ...Government officials and former ministers who have worked with the prime minister, and his top adviser Dominic Cummings, say modern tech infrastructure is much more important to the pair's vision for the U.K.'s future economy than trade with the U.S., welcome as a quick deal would be...
    ...U.K. authorities launched a review of telecom supply chains, first reported by POLITICO, in September 2018.
    The government said Tuesday it would seek to attract new vendors, promising to review and potentially lower the restrictions on the proportion of the network "high-risk vendors" can provide once new competitors were in the market.
    ...The move to allow Huawei limited market access also helps operators that have already tested 5G networks with the Chinese company. "If Huawei was taken away as an option, this whole process — including testing — would have to be started all over again," Jimmy Jones, an expert at the telecom penetration testing company Positive Technologies, said in an emailed comment.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 19,429

    Listening to Rabb in the HOC re Huawei this subject is so complex, and so many object to it without understanding the depth of detail needed to take the correct decision

    Bit too complex for Dominic 'where's Dover' Raab too, I suspect.
  • Theresa May speaking in the HOC endorsing the decision
  • Nigelb said:

    Listening to Rabb in the HOC re Huawei this subject is so complex, and so many object to it without understanding the depth of detail needed to take the correct decision

    Bit too complex for Dominic 'where's Dover' Raab too, I suspect.
    It is above most politicians knowledge
  • Tom Newton Dunn suggesting the strength of tory MP feeling on Huawei is such that a commons defeat is not out of the question, as all opposition parties are anti.

    Boris would surely have to resign if he lost the vote - PM not trusted on the fundamental issue of national security etc. If not then, when?
    That rather begs the question by assuming it is a matter of security.

    In any case, Boris is still there after losing what he claimed was a vote of confidence, so he will not resign over this (and what actually would parliament be voting on anyway?).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 18,155

    Listening to Rabb in the HOC re Huawei this subject is so complex, and so many object to it without understanding the depth of detail needed to take the correct decision

    I get the impression you're not including yourself in the many who don't understand the depth of detail needed to take the correct decision.
    I do not have the knowledge but I am able to listen to experts and trust the National Security Counsel to make the right call
    I'm sure a whole lot of persuading was needed to get you on board with BJ and Dominic Raab.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,935
    edited January 28

    malcolmg said:

    Where are they to be manufactured
    abroad for certain
    In Switzerland but with 30 UK companies involved in the supply chain, 15 local in the north east and 100 jobs at the South Gosforth depot to maintain the fleet

    The company manufactures trains in Liverpool
    I doubt those are new jobs. The South Gosforth depot already exists. Typical of this government though of course.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,197

    Theresa May speaking in the HOC endorsing the decision

    Now somebody else has taken it!
  • Listening to Rabb in the HOC re Huawei this subject is so complex, and so many object to it without understanding the depth of detail needed to take the correct decision

    I get the impression you're not including yourself in the many who don't understand the depth of detail needed to take the correct decision.
    I do not have the knowledge but I am able to listen to experts and trust the National Security Counsel to make the right call
    I'm sure a whole lot of persuading was needed to get you on board with BJ and Dominic Raab.
    Boris and Raab are following the National Security Counsel. Their endorsement is good enough for me
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 19,429

    Theresa May speaking in the HOC endorsing the decision

    Now somebody else has taken it!
    Out of sheer relief, probably.
This discussion has been closed.