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  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that I spent more time and effort campaigning for the Union in 2014 than anyone else on this site I am aware of. Certain things are indisputable:
    (1) the decision as to whether or not to be an independent country is a decision for the Scots alone, even although it affects others.
    (2) it is because we are fortunate enough to live in a country that recognises that that the majority of us wanted to remain in this great country. Spain is a good example of the alternative and it is not attractive.
    (3) the logic of (1) is that it is the Scottish people who decide when we have another referendum, if we do, not the SNP and not Nicola Sturgeon.
    (4) if Scots vote by a majority for parties committed to holding that referendum within the next term of the Scottish Parliament that is their democratic choice.
    (5) an attempt by non Scots to defy that choice will destroy the unionist cause in Scotland. The union would be doomed.

    It really is as simple and stark as that.

    What do you think the Unionists will do if the SNP decide to hold an unlawful* referendum?

    Boycott it or fight tooth and nail?

    *For the purposes of this discussion, unlawful means a referendum without a Section 30 order.
    I think that they will split both ways giving leave the majority.
    Thanks.

    I did read somewhere last year (cannot find the link now) that logistically it is nigh on impossible for the SNP to hold a unlawful referendum because they don't control every council in Scotland so cannot compel them to conduct the referendum which means large swathes of Scots will not be able to take part in it.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,935
    SKS 2-1 up against RLB tonight so far.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 26,335

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has seriously underperformed to date. Being so precipitate on HS2 was unwise unless he had cover from No 10. His Autumn statement was just embarrassing. A lot depends on his budget. He really has to seize the moment and epitomise the Boris revolution.
    I think his biggest problem is that he's just a bit boring.
    I agree. Not Philip Hammond boring but close. We need some imagination and vision in the Treasury. I am not sure he’s it.
    I think that might be John McDonnell trying to attract your attention...

    Meanwhile, I see that HY has been smoking the strong stuff again this evening.
    He said 'imagination and vision' not 'prejudice and fantasies.'
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 2,495

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:


    In which case the big Tory majority in the Commons would ensure Boris imposed direct rule on Scotland and suspended Holyrood, Sturgeon should then count herself lucky she would not be arrested for sedition as Catalan nationalists in the Catalan government were by the conservative PP Spanish government when they declared UDI and held an illegal indyref (the Spanish also imposing direct rule on Catalonia)

    This is madness and threatens the unionist majority like nothing else.
    :D:D

    Sorry - did you think they care down in England? The only need Scotland for the Naval bases, otherwise you would be gone.

    Look at the cheerleaders on this thread happy to sell N Ireland down the river. Be grateful for Trident otherwise you would get the same treatment.
    Yes, I care. I care emotionally, culturally and socially. I care deeply about Scotland and the Scottish people, who I think can be proudly Scottish and British at the same time.

    We would all be greatly impoverished by their departure and I would be upset.

    We're not all as childish as you.
    And we are not all as pompous as you.

    I should point, since you seem to have missed it, that I am not advocating tossing Scotland or N Ireland under the bus. I am pointing out that others on here are almost gleeful about it.

    Take your ire to them...

    Oh! I almost forgot your smiley :D:D;):open_mouth:
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 29,743

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has seriously underperformed to date. Being so precipitate on HS2 was unwise unless he had cover from No 10. His Autumn statement was just embarrassing. A lot depends on his budget. He really has to seize the moment and epitomise the Boris revolution.
    I think his biggest problem is that he's just a bit boring.
    I agree. Not Philip Hammond boring but close. We need some imagination and vision in the Treasury. I am not sure he’s it.
    I think that might be John McDonnell trying to attract your attention...

    Meanwhile, I see that HY has been smoking the strong stuff again this evening.
    Not much risk of McDonnell getting my attention Sandy but that doesn’t mean that we can’t pinch some of his ideas.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,935

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Predictable comment but you may be in for a very big surprise
    I also may not be.
    At least I’m looking at the evidence. You’re just going on blind hope and ‘optimism’.
  • eadriceadric Posts: 2,004

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    I just watched that Boris speech. It’s one of the best English language political speeches, I’ve seen, since Obama’s speech on race in Philadelphia (which for me is the benchmark of great modern English language Political speeches)

    Witty, clever, firm when necessary, candid, interesting, and occasionally inspiring. Bit dull on eu law versus Uk law, but that was necessary in the circumstances.

    Boris is growing into the role. This won’t please his haters, who will never see good in him, but he is gaining in stature.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,563

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Different team, different majority - you should have noticed. Can you please enlighten me on the detail the EU offering.
    Do you mean apart from all their public presentations on their negotiating objectives and the 33 page document released today?



    You do realise we have less than 11 months to go?
    Actually, I'd be broadly be happy with that EU proposed deal provided the governance arrangements were fair and subject to the negotiated detail.

    It's big, it's broad, it's ambitious, it's practical and it's comprehensive and it'd allow us a good economic and political relationship outside the EU.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 9,387

    justin124 said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has seriously underperformed to date. Being so precipitate on HS2 was unwise unless he had cover from No 10. His Autumn statement was just embarrassing. A lot depends on his budget. He really has to seize the moment and epitomise the Boris revolution.
    Sajid is the most uncharismatic, untelegenic politician ever. He makes Teresa May look like a young, more compelling Marlon Brando.

    It’s a shame cause I think he’s smart and he has a great and inspiring backstory. He’s an impressive dude CV-wise. But he’s so wooden he may get the chop, daboomtish

    The Tories need more persuasive voices, and he doesn’t cut it.
    Since becoming Chancellor , he has come across as surprisingly dim - Javid does not look the part at all and has little natural authority.With hindsight, I am finding it difficult to understand why Stephen Crabbe supported him for the leadership.
    Compared with labour leadership and deputy leadership candidates he looks a fine statesman
    I strongly disagree - Starmer has far more gravitas - and even beats him in terms of charisma.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 523
    edited February 3

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Different team, different majority - you should have noticed. Can you please enlighten me on the detail the EU offering.
    Do you mean apart from all their public presentations on their negotiating objectives and the 33 page document released today?



    You do realise we have less than 11 months to go?
    Since when are guidelines details? They're chat. Details come out of negotiations. Even red lines are negotiable until both sides determine that they're not. If anything the presentation of "guidelines" is weak.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,935
    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Different team, different majority - you should have noticed. Can you please enlighten me on the detail the EU offering.
    Do you mean apart from all their public presentations on their negotiating objectives and the 33 page document released today?



    You do realise we have less than 11 months to go?
    Since when are guidelines details? They're chat. Details come out of negotiations. Even red lines are negotiable until both sides determine that they're not.
    So where’s the UK chat apart from “we want everything or we’ll shoot ourselves in the face”?
  • DavidL said:

    I think that I spent more time and effort campaigning for the Union in 2014 than anyone else on this site I am aware of. Certain things are indisputable:
    (1) the decision as to whether or not to be an independent country is a decision for the Scots alone, even although it affects others.
    (2) it is because we are fortunate enough to live in a country that recognises that that the majority of us wanted to remain in this great country. Spain is a good example of the alternative and it is not attractive.
    (3) the logic of (1) is that it is the Scottish people who decide when we have another referendum, if we do, not the SNP and not Nicola Sturgeon.
    (4) if Scots vote by a majority for parties committed to holding that referendum within the next term of the Scottish Parliament that is their democratic choice.
    (5) an attempt by non Scots to defy that choice will destroy the unionist cause in Scotland. The union would be doomed.

    It really is as simple and stark as that.

    I am with you 100% on this David and it matters to my Scots wife, myself and all my family that Scotland stays in the union. Can anyone start to imagine if we had to exchange pounds for euros at the border when we go to Lossiemouth and other parts of Scotland visiting family and vice versa

    Comments like HYUFD's infuriate me as he has no intellect to see the damage his incendiary comments make to the future of the union which is so precious to many of us
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 29,743

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that I spent more time and effort campaigning for the Union in 2014 than anyone else on this site I am aware of. Certain things are indisputable:
    (1) the decision as to whether or not to be an independent country is a decision for the Scots alone, even although it affects others.
    (2) it is because we are fortunate enough to live in a country that recognises that that the majority of us wanted to remain in this great country. Spain is a good example of the alternative and it is not attractive.
    (3) the logic of (1) is that it is the Scottish people who decide when we have another referendum, if we do, not the SNP and not Nicola Sturgeon.
    (4) if Scots vote by a majority for parties committed to holding that referendum within the next term of the Scottish Parliament that is their democratic choice.
    (5) an attempt by non Scots to defy that choice will destroy the unionist cause in Scotland. The union would be doomed.

    It really is as simple and stark as that.

    What do you think the Unionists will do if the SNP decide to hold an unlawful* referendum?

    Boycott it or fight tooth and nail?

    *For the purposes of this discussion, unlawful means a referendum without a Section 30 order.
    I think that they will split both ways giving leave the majority.
    Thanks.

    I did read somewhere last year (cannot find the link now) that logistically it is nigh on impossible for the SNP to hold a unlawful referendum because they don't control every council in Scotland so cannot compel them to conduct the referendum which means large swathes of Scots will not be able to take part in it.
    The Scottish government would have the capability to organise such a thing and could pass legislation requiring local authorities to cooperate. No doubt the courts would get involved too. There are no good outcomes for unionism on such a path.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 13,542
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    So 51% Yes 49% No at weekend and now 50%/50% , easy to see why Boris is running scared. Once they start campaigning that will be 60% - 40% for certain.
    Except Boris
    That's not what the Tory manifesto says.

    What it says is "We are opposed to a second independence referendum and stand with the majority of people in Scotland, who do not want to return to division and uncertainty. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP promised that the 2014 referendum would be a ‘once in a generation’ vote and the result was decisive. We believe that outcome should be respected."

    If the SNP + Greens win a majority of seats and voteshare in next May's Holyrood election with a promise of an indyref rerun

    (OK OK, I know a majority in Britain as a whole last month voted for not leaving the EU without another Brexit referendum, but there's PR at Holyrood and also independence is a Yes/No issue so it's different.)

    There almost certainly will be one, so we will probably get one.
    I’m with HYUFD. The Tories will deny a vote even if the Nats get a maj in Holyrood. They will dare Sturgeon to legally overreach, like the catalunyans.

    High stakes.
    That would be unwise. Salmond and Sturgeon n most.
    I’m not saying it’s a good call - or a bad one. I’m just reading the runes as I see them. I I? Fatal mistake if she does.
    She would probably go for a referendum without Westminster consent. She would probably win it. We would be in a terrible mess.
    In which case the big Tory majorf (the Spanish also imposing direct rule on Catalonia)
    HYUFD.

    You talk so much nonsense about the Scots and indyref2 and actively incite anger against so many reasonable Scots and supporters of the union like myself. We are ashamed of your exteme claptrap but are confident more wise voices will realise that the way to save the union is to grant the referendum in the autumn of 2021, if the SNP win on the manifesto of holding a referendum

    Nope, most Scots do not want indyref2 even if the SNP win a majority next year, sorry BigG but time to get tough with the Nats and tell them a firm 'No means No'.

    Indyref2 will have to wait for a full generation after 2014 as Salmond promised
    They do, however, support one within the next 5 years
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 9,387
    DavidL said:

    I think that I spent more time and effort campaigning for the Union in 2014 than anyone else on this site I am aware of. Certain things are indisputable:
    (1) the decision as to whether or not to be an independent country is a decision for the Scots alone, even although it affects others.
    (2) it is because we are fortunate enough to live in a country that recognises that that the majority of us wanted to remain in this great country. Spain is a good example of the alternative and it is not attractive.
    (3) the logic of (1) is that it is the Scottish people who decide when we have another referendum, if we do, not the SNP and not Nicola Sturgeon.
    (4) if Scots vote by a majority for parties committed to holding that referendum within the next term of the Scottish Parliament that is their democratic choice.
    (5) an attempt by non Scots to defy that choice will destroy the unionist cause in Scotland. The union would be doomed.

    It really is as simple and stark as that.

    Were that to happen on a turnout of 65% - 70% , I would tend to agree. However, the more typical Holyrood turnout of circa 50% might not be sufficient to negate the 2014 Referendum result obtained on circa 85%.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 523
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has seriously underperformed to date. Being so precipitate on HS2 was unwise unless he had cover from No 10. His Autumn statement was just embarrassing. A lot depends on his budget. He really has to seize the moment and epitomise the Boris revolution.
    Sajid is the most uncharismatic, untelegenic politician ever. He makes Teresa May look like a young, more compelling Marlon Brando.

    It’s a shame cause I think he’s smart and he has a great and inspiring backstory. He’s an impressive dude CV-wise. But he’s so wooden he may get the chop, daboomtish

    The Tories need more persuasive voices, and he doesn’t cut it.
    Since becoming Chancellor , he has come across as surprisingly dim - Javid does not look the part at all and has little natural authority.With hindsight, I am finding it difficult to understand why Stephen Crabbe supported him for the leadership.
    Compared with labour leadership and deputy leadership candidates he looks a fine statesman
    I strongly disagree - Starmer has far more gravitas - and even beats him in terms of charisma.
    They're both crap.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,935

    SKS 2-1 up against RLB tonight so far.

    The lead opens up to 3-1 with a half volley from Strathkelvin and Bearsden CLP.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 3,284

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    May wasn't prepared to walk away nor would Parliament let Johnson do so. If it comes to it then whoever is prepared to walk away is in the stronger position. This time Parliament will be on the UK's side.

    I don't think Ireland will want the talks to collapse.
    Ireland may well elect a government that includes the party that was planting plastic explosives in British streets twenty-five years ago. I think maximising cheese exports will not be their main motive.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 523

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Different team, different majority - you should have noticed. Can you please enlighten me on the detail the EU offering.
    Do you mean apart from all their public presentations on their negotiating objectives and the 33 page document released today?



    You do realise we have less than 11 months to go?
    Since when are guidelines details? They're chat. Details come out of negotiations. Even red lines are negotiable until both sides determine that they're not.
    So where’s the UK chat apart from “we want everything or we’ll shoot ourselves in the face”?
    Very clever. Learned that in the playgound did we?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,935
    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Different team, different majority - you should have noticed. Can you please enlighten me on the detail the EU offering.
    Do you mean apart from all their public presentations on their negotiating objectives and the 33 page document released today?



    You do realise we have less than 11 months to go?
    Since when are guidelines details? They're chat. Details come out of negotiations. Even red lines are negotiable until both sides determine that they're not.
    So where’s the UK chat apart from “we want everything or we’ll shoot ourselves in the face”?
    Very clever. Learned that in the playgound did we?
    No, just on Twitter.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 2,639
    eadric said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    I just watched that Boris speech. It’s one of the best English language political speeches, I’ve seen, since Obama’s speech on race in Philadelphia (which for me is the benchmark of great modern English language Political speeches)

    Witty, clever, firm when necessary, candid, interesting, and occasionally inspiring. Bit dull on eu law versus Uk law, but that was necessary in the circumstances.

    Boris is growing into the role. This won’t please his haters, who will never see good in him, but he is gaining in stature.
    Only 53 posts in, but you've got the art of spoofing off to a tee. Well done!
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Different team, different majority - you should have noticed. Can you please enlighten me on the detail the EU offering.
    Do you mean apart from all their public presentations on their negotiating objectives and the 33 page document released today?



    You do realise we have less than 11 months to go?
    The power of a political position is not correlated in the number of pages one publishes.

    The EU commission can publish a 10000 page document if they want to, but the political balance will not change before the end of 2020.
    All the relevant governments will still be in place with the same majorities with the exception of the irish one.
  • DavidL said:

    I think that I spent more time and effort campaigning for the Union in 2014 than anyone else on this site I am aware of. Certain things are indisputable:
    (1) the decision as to whether or not to be an independent country is a decision for the Scots alone, even although it affects others.
    (2) it is because we are fortunate enough to live in a country that recognises that that the majority of us wanted to remain in this great country. Spain is a good example of the alternative and it is not attractive.
    (3) the logic of (1) is that it is the Scottish people who decide when we have another referendum, if we do, not the SNP and not Nicola Sturgeon.
    (4) if Scots vote by a majority for parties committed to holding that referendum within the next term of the Scottish Parliament that is their democratic choice.
    (5) an attempt by non Scots to defy that choice will destroy the unionist cause in Scotland. The union would be doomed.

    It really is as simple and stark as that.

    What do you think the Unionists will do if the SNP decide to hold an unlawful* referendum?

    Boycott it or fight tooth and nail?

    *For the purposes of this discussion, unlawful means a referendum without a Section 30 order.
    I genuinely doubt they will. 2021 is their best chance to win Holyrood and achieve a legitimate ballot which I believe they will lose.

    However, delay by HMG would increase independence month by month and would be an idiotic political position to take
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 1,409



    We're in danger of walking over the abyss here.

    I'm not sure how confident I am Boris will fight tooth and nail for the Union.

    Already walked over that abyss in 2016 and the cherry on the parfait, 63% of Tory members would be prepared to see Scotland leave the EU to ensure Brexit.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/18/most-conservative-members-would-see-party-destroye
    Sorry. Too boring.

    If you're going to troll try and be original.
    I'm not trolling.

    There's clear evidence that the Conservative and Unionist Party has ceased to be Unionist.

    Whilst I thought Brexit might increase the chances of Scotland seceding I did not expect the Tory party to help the process.
    The Unionist bit is about Ireland, and conflating it with Scotland is just bonkers. It's like having a single Shaggist policy in regard to Ann Widdecombe and Taylor Swift, rather than take each case on its merits.

    And it's not like either question is difficult. Of course Ireland should be united, if you think differently that is because your zoom level needs resetting. Scotland is more complicated but not to you or me it isn't because it is ENTIRELY up to the Scots, and excessive English concern in the matter is borderline creepy. It's like a middle aged man with an implausibly detailed knowledge of the dress requirements of the Girl Guide movement.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 10,344
    Where can we watch the Iowa results come in?

  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    edited February 3
    Iowa update.
    Results so far with probably 0.002% in:

    Sanders 27 votes
    Buttigieg 7
    Warren 7
    Biden 4
    Klobuchar 2
    Yang 1

    It's going to be a very long night.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 2,495

    Where can we watch the Iowa results come in?

    You will need good binoculars. Iowa is a long way away ;)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,910

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    So 51% Yes 49% No at weekend and now 50%/50% , easy to see why Boris is running scared. Once they start campaigning that will be 60% - 40% for certain.
    Except Boris has made clear he will block indyref2 for his full 5 year term as per the Tory manifesto and most Scots oppose indyref2 for 5 years anyway
    That's not what the Tory manifesto says.


    If the SNP + Greens win a majority of seats and voteshare in next May's Holyrood election with a promise of an indyref rerun (and both already backed the s30 request), then there will have to be one, because that will be that "the majority of people in Scotland" want. I am sure Boris is well aware of that and he has not ruled it out. It wouldn't surprise me if Dom is even looking forward to indyref2.

    (OK OK, I know a majority in Britain as a whole last month voted for not leaving the EU without another Brexit referendum, but there's PR at Holyrood and also independence is a Yes/No issue so it's different.)

    There almost certainly will be one, so we will probably get one.
    I’m with HYUFD. The Tories will deny a vote even if the Nats get a maj in Holyrood. They will dare Sturgeon to legally overreach, like the catalunyans.

    High stakes.
    That would be unwise. Salmond and Sturgeon are here today gone tomorrow politicians, who cares what they said? But if the people of Scotland vote by a majority for parties committed to a second referendum it would be undemocratic to refuse it, however much I and others will campaign against such an outcome. Those who have been given a strong majority because of the lying toerags in the remainer Parliament should know that better than most.
    I’m not saying it’s a good call - or a bad one. I’m just reading the runes as I see them. I reckon that if the Nats get a maj then Boris will think, fuck it, the union is in great danger anyway, it can’t get any worse if we just say No.

    What will Nicola do then? UDI? Fatal mistake if she does.
    She would probably go for a referendum without Westminster consent. She would probably win it. We would be in a terrible mess.
    We're in danger of walking over the abyss here.

    I'm not sure how confident I am Boris will fight tooth and nail for the Union.
    Given his past behaviour regarding the Northern Irish, the precedents are not good
  • alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Predictable comment but you may be in for a very big surprise
    I also may not be.
    At least I’m looking at the evidence. You’re just going on blind hope and ‘optimism’.
    Not really. There was a lot of truth in Boris speech today, and even areas that could be agreed with the EU on workers rights, where we are well ahead of the EU, environment issues, and the lack of enforcement of state aid rules in France and Germany
  • IshmaelZ said:



    We're in danger of walking over the abyss here.

    I'm not sure how confident I am Boris will fight tooth and nail for the Union.

    Already walked over that abyss in 2016 and the cherry on the parfait, 63% of Tory members would be prepared to see Scotland leave the EU to ensure Brexit.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/18/most-conservative-members-would-see-party-destroye
    Sorry. Too boring.

    If you're going to troll try and be original.
    I'm not trolling.

    There's clear evidence that the Conservative and Unionist Party has ceased to be Unionist.

    Whilst I thought Brexit might increase the chances of Scotland seceding I did not expect the Tory party to help the process.
    The Unionist bit is about Ireland, and conflating it with Scotland is just bonkers. It's like having a single Shaggist policy in regard to Ann Widdecombe and Taylor Swift, rather than take each case on its merits.

    And it's not like either question is difficult. Of course Ireland should be united, if you think differently that is because your zoom level needs resetting. Scotland is more complicated but not to you or me it isn't because it is ENTIRELY up to the Scots, and excessive English concern in the matter is borderline creepy. It's like a middle aged man with an implausibly detailed knowledge of the dress requirements of the Girl Guide movement.
    I know but it was reinforced to include Scotland when the Scottish Unionist Party merged with the Tory Party.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 2,495

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Different team, different majority - you should have noticed. Can you please enlighten me on the detail the EU offering.
    Do you mean apart from all their public presentations on their negotiating objectives and the 33 page document released today?



    You do realise we have less than 11 months to go?
    Err... I thought it all had to be sorted by July, or at least know by July that it could be signed by December or else it was No Deal on 1st Jan 2021?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 80,846
    edited February 3

    Where can we watch the Iowa results come in?

    Apparently here.

    https://edition.cnn.com/specials/live-cnni-uk

    Edit - If you have access to Sky then CNN on channel 506 will begin their live results how from 9pm
  • EPGEPG Posts: 3,284
    Does a pre-announced Boris veto seriously reduce the cost to the SNP of passing a referendum bill and acting within UK law if he says no?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,910
    speedy2 said:

    speedy2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    In which case the big Tory majority in the Commons would ensure Boris imposed direct rule on Scotland and suspended Holyrood, Sturgeon should then count herself lucky she would not be arrested for sedition as Catalan nationalists in the Catalan government were by the conservative PP Spanish government when they declared UDI and held an illegal indyref (the Spanish also imposing direct rule on Catalonia)

    We’ve been through this. Boris cannot suspend Holyrood without primary legislation so good luck with that. I doubt the Lords would be cooperative. You’d have to wait at least a year.
    The biggest problem for the SNP internationally is Spain.

    Spain will never support or recognise secessionists due to their own secessionists.
    I think they could. We’ve heard all this guff before, like when Macron was going to veto everything.

    Spain can simply talk about how their constitution is different to the UK.
    Wishcasting...
    I like that expression! I shall blatantly steal it... :)

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 26,335
    EPG said:

    Does a pre-announced Boris veto seriously reduce the cost to the SNP of passing a referendum bill and acting within UK law if he says no?

    Do you mean ‘outside UK law?’
  • justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has seriously underperformed to date. Being so precipitate on HS2 was unwise unless he had cover from No 10. His Autumn statement was just embarrassing. A lot depends on his budget. He really has to seize the moment and epitomise the Boris revolution.
    Sajid is the most uncharismatic, untelegenic politician ever. He makes Teresa May look like a young, more compelling Marlon Brando.

    It’s a shame cause I think he’s smart and he has a great and inspiring backstory. He’s an impressive dude CV-wise. But he’s so wooden he may get the chop, daboomtish

    The Tories need more persuasive voices, and he doesn’t cut it.
    Since becoming Chancellor , he has come across as surprisingly dim - Javid does not look the part at all and has little natural authority.With hindsight, I am finding it difficult to understand why Stephen Crabbe supported him for the leadership.
    Compared with labour leadership and deputy leadership candidates he looks a fine statesman
    I strongly disagree - Starmer has far more gravitas - and even beats him in terms of charisma.
    Starmer, the knighted millionaire human rights lawyer from London who did nothing on anti semitism while sitting alongside Corbyn in cabinet

    Starmer is bland, has no charisma at all, and it says a lot at how bankrupt labour are when he is their best hope
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,910

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that I spent more time and effort campaigning for the Union in 2014 than anyone else on this site I am aware of. Certain things are indisputable:
    (1) the decision as to whether or not to be an independent country is a decision for the Scots alone, even although it affects others.
    (2) it is because we are fortunate enough to live in a country that recognises that that the majority of us wanted to remain in this great country. Spain is a good example of the alternative and it is not attractive.
    (3) the logic of (1) is that it is the Scottish people who decide when we have another referendum, if we do, not the SNP and not Nicola Sturgeon.
    (4) if Scots vote by a majority for parties committed to holding that referendum within the next term of the Scottish Parliament that is their democratic choice.
    (5) an attempt by non Scots to defy that choice will destroy the unionist cause in Scotland. The union would be doomed.

    It really is as simple and stark as that.

    What do you think the Unionists will do if the SNP decide to hold an unlawful* referendum?

    Boycott it or fight tooth and nail?

    *For the purposes of this discussion, unlawful means a referendum without a Section 30 order.
    I think that they will split both ways giving leave the majority.
    Thanks.

    I did read somewhere last year (cannot find the link now) that logistically it is nigh on impossible for the SNP to hold a unlawful referendum because they don't control every council in Scotland so cannot compel them to conduct the referendum which means large swathes of Scots will not be able to take part in it.
    All they have to do is design their own counting areas, book the halls, and rent the staff. It will be a bit rough-and-ready but it's doable.

    Whether they have the balls to do it, mind, is a different point... :(


  • Well played Liang.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 14,174
    speedy2 said:

    Iowa update.
    Results so far with probably 0.002% in:

    Sanders 27 votes
    Buttigieg 7
    Warren 7
    Biden 4
    Klobuchar 2
    Yang 1

    It's going to be a very long night.

    That's Democrats Abroad in Belarus, right?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 30,473
    edited February 3
    viewcode said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:
    The EU’s next move is to entice Scotland.

    This is a hostile act and all part of their move to punish the UK for leaving, and encourage others not to do the same.

    They will wrap it up in language around defending the interests of member states only, and being neutral on potential new accession member states.

    Boris should say he’ll immediately guillotine all talks if they encourage - tacitly or otherwise - dismemberment of the UK.
    Why would Boris do that? He has made a great start at breaking up the UK with his non-border border in the Irish Sea.
    Yep. Boris has opened up a route to a united Ireland.

    Not that it was of course anything that a British Prime Minister could agree to.
    Good. A United Ireland will save the Exchequer how many billions each year?
    Perhaps you would feel happier if you dug a 100 mile diameter moat around your house? The country contains poor areas. That's no reason to amputate bits.
    I don't want to amputate poor bits.

    If those poor bits want to amputate themselves and stop suckling off us though, then that's their choice and I respect it and welcome it.

    This may come as a shock to you but I genuinely believe in the power of self-reliance. I think the poor nations, if they go separately will be forced to grow up and will be better off for it. I don't believe that infantilising people with welfare makes them any better off.

    I think NI politics is incredibly infantilised and that some cold water of no longer being given our money will make them stop bickering like children and start working for a living and they'd be safer, healthier, happier and less violent for it.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 10,344
    edited February 3

    Where can we watch the Iowa results come in?

    Apparently here.

    https://edition.cnn.com/specials/live-cnni-uk

    Edit - If you have access to Sky then CNN on channel 506 will begin their live results how from 9pm
    Thanks

    I did also find the map here:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/iowa-caucus-2020-live-results-vote-counts-updates-2020-2?r=US&IR=T

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,910

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has seriously underperformed to date. Being so precipitate on HS2 was unwise unless he had cover from No 10. His Autumn statement was just embarrassing. A lot depends on his budget. He really has to seize the moment and epitomise the Boris revolution.
    Sajid is the most uncharismatic, untelegenic politician ever. He makes Teresa May look like a young, more compelling Marlon Brando.

    It’s a shame cause I think he’s smart and he has a great and inspiring backstory. He’s an impressive dude CV-wise. But he’s so wooden he may get the chop, daboomtish

    The Tories need more persuasive voices, and he doesn’t cut it.
    Since becoming Chancellor , he has come across as surprisingly dim - Javid does not look the part at all and has little natural authority.With hindsight, I am finding it difficult to understand why Stephen Crabbe supported him for the leadership.
    Compared with labour leadership and deputy leadership candidates he looks a fine statesman
    I strongly disagree - Starmer has far more gravitas - and even beats him in terms of charisma.
    Starmer, the knighted millionaire human rights lawyer from London....
    Decadent wealthy metropolitan elite politicians. Terrible people. ... :)

  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    edited February 3

    speedy2 said:

    Iowa update.
    Results so far with probably 0.002% in:

    Sanders 27 votes
    Buttigieg 7
    Warren 7
    Biden 4
    Klobuchar 2
    Yang 1

    It's going to be a very long night.

    That's Democrats Abroad in Belarus, right?
    Nope.
    It's so far the result of satellite caucuses inside Iowa, not the ones out of Iowa yet.

    Basically the people who can't participate in the night caucuses for a variety of reasons such as nightshifts.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 9,387

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has seriously underperformed to date. Being so precipitate on HS2 was unwise unless he had cover from No 10. His Autumn statement was just embarrassing. A lot depends on his budget. He really has to seize the moment and epitomise the Boris revolution.
    Sajid is the most uncharismatic, untelegenic politician ever. He makes Teresa May look like a young, more compelling Marlon Brando.

    It’s a shame cause I think he’s smart and he has a great and inspiring backstory. He’s an impressive dude CV-wise. But he’s so wooden he may get the chop, daboomtish

    The Tories need more persuasive voices, and he doesn’t cut it.
    Since becoming Chancellor , he has come across as surprisingly dim - Javid does not look the part at all and has little natural authority.With hindsight, I am finding it difficult to understand why Stephen Crabbe supported him for the leadership.
    Compared with labour leadership and deputy leadership candidates he looks a fine statesman
    I strongly disagree - Starmer has far more gravitas - and even beats him in terms of charisma.
    Starmer, the knighted millionaire human rights lawyer from London who did nothing on anti semitism while sitting alongside Corbyn in cabinet

    Starmer is bland, has no charisma at all, and it says a lot at how bankrupt labour are when he is their best hope
    He has far more gravitas than Johnson - though lacks his charisma and lags him badly in terms of moral turpitude.
  • I've just caught up with the Alfredo Morelos story, fecking hilarious.

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/rangers-star-alfredo-morelos-lamborghini-21412345
  • justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has seriously underperformed to date. Being so precipitate on HS2 was unwise unless he had cover from No 10. His Autumn statement was just embarrassing. A lot depends on his budget. He really has to seize the moment and epitomise the Boris revolution.
    Sajid is the most uncharismatic, untelegenic politician ever. He makes Teresa May look like a young, more compelling Marlon Brando.

    It’s a shame cause I think he’s smart and he has a great and inspiring backstory. He’s an impressive dude CV-wise. But he’s so wooden he may get the chop, daboomtish

    The Tories need more persuasive voices, and he doesn’t cut it.
    Since becoming Chancellor , he has come across as surprisingly dim - Javid does not look the part at all and has little natural authority.With hindsight, I am finding it difficult to understand why Stephen Crabbe supported him for the leadership.
    Compared with labour leadership and deputy leadership candidates he looks a fine statesman
    I strongly disagree - Starmer has far more gravitas - and even beats him in terms of charisma.
    Starmer, the knighted millionaire human rights lawyer from London who did nothing on anti semitism while sitting alongside Corbyn in cabinet

    Starmer is bland, has no charisma at all, and it says a lot at how bankrupt labour are when he is their best hope
    He has far more gravitas than Johnson - though lacks his charisma and lags him badly in terms of moral turpitude.
    If you say so
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,935
    Imagine suggesting that being a human rights lawyer is something to be ashamed of.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 30,473

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Different team, different majority - you should have noticed. Can you please enlighten me on the detail the EU offering.
    Do you mean apart from all their public presentations on their negotiating objectives and the 33 page document released today?



    You do realise we have less than 11 months to go?
    Err... I thought it all had to be sorted by July, or at least know by July that it could be signed by December or else it was No Deal on 1st Jan 2021?
    Nothing needs to be signed by July.

    An extension needs to be requested by July but since the government has said its not requesting an extension that's moot.
  • Imagine suggesting that being a human rights lawyer is something to be ashamed of.

    Read my comment. He is a human rights lawyer who sat in Corbyn's cabinet and took no action to condemn the anti semitism in labour
  • Imagine suggesting that being a human rights lawyer is something to be ashamed of.

    Indeed, I know him primarily for his work on the McLibel case.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 3,284

    viewcode said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:
    The EU’s next move is to entice Scotland.

    This is a hostile act and all part of their move to punish the UK for leaving, and encourage others not to do the same.

    They will wrap it up in language around defending the interests of member states only, and being neutral on potential new accession member states.

    Boris should say he’ll immediately guillotine all talks if they encourage - tacitly or otherwise - dismemberment of the UK.
    Why would Boris do that? He has made a great start at breaking up the UK with his non-border border in the Irish Sea.
    Yep. Boris has opened up a route to a united Ireland.

    Not that it was of course anything that a British Prime Minister could agree to.
    Good. A United Ireland will save the Exchequer how many billions each year?
    Perhaps you would feel happier if you dug a 100 mile diameter moat around your house? The country contains poor areas. That's no reason to amputate bits.
    I don't want to amputate poor bits.

    If those poor bits want to amputate themselves and stop suckling off us though, then that's their choice and I respect it and welcome it.

    This may come as a shock to you but I genuinely believe in the power of self-reliance. I think the poor nations, if they go separately will be forced to grow up and will be better off for it. I don't believe that infantilising people with welfare makes them any better off.

    I think NI politics is incredibly infantilised and that some cold water of no longer being given our money will make them stop bickering like children and start working for a living and they'd be safer, healthier, happier and less violent for it.
    Do you think the main cause of the violence in the 1970s and 1980s was a lack of British occupation?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 30,473
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has seriously underperformed to date. Being so precipitate on HS2 was unwise unless he had cover from No 10. His Autumn statement was just embarrassing. A lot depends on his budget. He really has to seize the moment and epitomise the Boris revolution.
    Sajid is the most uncharismatic, untelegenic politician ever. He makes Teresa May look like a young, more compelling Marlon Brando.

    It’s a shame cause I think he’s smart and he has a great and inspiring backstory. He’s an impressive dude CV-wise. But he’s so wooden he may get the chop, daboomtish

    The Tories need more persuasive voices, and he doesn’t cut it.
    Since becoming Chancellor , he has come across as surprisingly dim - Javid does not look the part at all and has little natural authority.With hindsight, I am finding it difficult to understand why Stephen Crabbe supported him for the leadership.
    Compared with labour leadership and deputy leadership candidates he looks a fine statesman
    I strongly disagree - Starmer has far more gravitas - and even beats him in terms of charisma.
    LOL. You're funny.

    Though to give you credit you didn't drink the Corbyn kool aid even during the election did you? Unlike some of our Labour posters.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 57,911
    This CNN coverage is hilarious lol
  • EPGEPG Posts: 3,284
    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:

    Does a pre-announced Boris veto seriously reduce the cost to the SNP of passing a referendum bill and acting within UK law if he says no?

    Do you mean ‘outside UK law?’
    I mean acting within UK law, i.e. voting in some way to call for a referendum, but not holding a referendum.
  • Imagine suggesting that being a human rights lawyer is something to be ashamed of.

    That is some comical selective reading.

    I'd probably delete the post and hope people didn't notice, myself.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 30,280
    speedy2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:
    "Just over two dozen" people came together for the caucus. 14 of the 25/26/27? went for Sanders. One went for Warren.

    Who did the other 10 to 12 vote for?

    Edit to add: as an aside, this suggests that the Sanders campaign is EXTREMELY well organised.
    Well the official result so far is Sanders 18, Buttigieg 2 ,Klobuchar 2, Warren 2 votes.

    It's probably 0.0001% in.
    God, it's not looking good for Biden, is it?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 30,473
    edited February 3
    EPG said:

    viewcode said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:
    The EU’s next move is to entice Scotland.

    This is a hostile act and all part of their move to punish the UK for leaving, and encourage others not to do the same.

    They will wrap it up in language around defending the interests of member states only, and being neutral on potential new accession member states.

    Boris should say he’ll immediately guillotine all talks if they encourage - tacitly or otherwise - dismemberment of the UK.
    Why would Boris do that? He has made a great start at breaking up the UK with his non-border border in the Irish Sea.
    Yep. Boris has opened up a route to a united Ireland.

    Not that it was of course anything that a British Prime Minister could agree to.
    Good. A United Ireland will save the Exchequer how many billions each year?
    Perhaps you would feel happier if you dug a 100 mile diameter moat around your house? The country contains poor areas. That's no reason to amputate bits.
    I don't want to amputate poor bits.

    If those poor bits want to amputate themselves and stop suckling off us though, then that's their choice and I respect it and welcome it.

    This may come as a shock to you but I genuinely believe in the power of self-reliance. I think the poor nations, if they go separately will be forced to grow up and will be better off for it. I don't believe that infantilising people with welfare makes them any better off.

    I think NI politics is incredibly infantilised and that some cold water of no longer being given our money will make them stop bickering like children and start working for a living and they'd be safer, healthier, happier and less violent for it.
    Do you think the main cause of the violence in the 1970s and 1980s was a lack of British occupation?
    No. And I'm not sure how you read that from my post.

    I do think a main cause of violence in the 70s and 80s was too much religion and violence and not enough working for a living. People with a steady job who need it to pay the bills don't often turn to violence.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,935

    Imagine suggesting that being a human rights lawyer is something to be ashamed of.

    Read my comment. He is a human rights lawyer who sat in Corbyn's cabinet and took no action to condemn the anti semitism in labour
    Then why mention his profession?

    We’ll see how or if he solves the anti-semitism issue if elected. I agree he could have done much more as part of Corbyn’s shadow cabinet but if he eradicates it as leader then I can forgive that.
  • Pulpstar said:

    This CNN coverage is hilarious lol

    Oi, I enjoyed the Paris segment.
  • eadriceadric Posts: 2,004
    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that I spent more time and effort campaigning for the Union in 2014 than anyone else on this site I am aware of. Certain things are indisputable:
    (1) the decision as to whether or not to be an independent country is a decision for the Scots alone, even although it affects others.
    (2) it is because we are fortunate enough to live in a country that recognises that that the majority of us wanted to remain in this great country. Spain is a good example of the alternative and it is not attractive.
    (3) the logic of (1) is that it is the Scottish people who decide when we have another referendum, if we do, not the SNP and not Nicola Sturgeon.
    (4) if Scots vote by a majority for parties committed to holding that referendum within the next term of the Scottish Parliament that is their democratic choice.
    (5) an attempt by non Scots to defy that choice will destroy the unionist cause in Scotland. The union would be doomed.

    It really is as simple and stark as that.

    Were that to happen on a turnout of 65% - 70% , I would tend to agree. However, the more typical Holyrood turnout of circa 50% might not be sufficient to negate the 2014 Referendum result obtained on circa 85%.
    This is a good point. The pressure on Boris to agree indyref2 will depend very much on the strength of the SNP result in 2021

    If sturgeon gets an absolute majority of seats then Boris’ position is very difficult (tho for reasons adduced I think he might still say No). But the SNP would be able to stoke grievance here and might win the day.

    But an overall Nat maj is unlikely.

    More likely she will get a coalition with the Greens and then Boris can rightly say there is no coherent position, status quo ante. And I reckon that would work

    Look at Catalunya. The Madrid government has (scandalously, to my mind) actually jailed secessionist leaders and violently repressed dissent. And the result? Support for independence has at best flatlined, or even fallen.

    I don’t agree with HYUFD that London would go so far as troops or cops, but there is evidence that a firm line from a capital city can work. Especially when London can say Look we already gave you a vote a few years ago, you lost, shut up.

    It all depends on the details of the Holyrood election. Turnout will also be crucial.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 57,911
    So if you're in Florida then you can vote in IA caucus if you fancy it ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 33,856
    EPG said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    May wasn't prepared to walk away nor would Parliament let Johnson do so. If it comes to it then whoever is prepared to walk away is in the stronger position. This time Parliament will be on the UK's side.

    I don't think Ireland will want the talks to collapse.
    Ireland may well elect a government that includes the party that was planting plastic explosives in British streets twenty-five years ago. I think maximising cheese exports will not be their main motive.
    Northern Ireland already has that party in government...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 57,911
    Port Charlotte looked good for Klobuchar, less so for Warren and Sanders.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 26,335
    EPG said:

    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:

    Does a pre-announced Boris veto seriously reduce the cost to the SNP of passing a referendum bill and acting within UK law if he says no?

    Do you mean ‘outside UK law?’
    I mean acting within UK law, i.e. voting in some way to call for a referendum, but not holding a referendum.
    I think if she acts like that, she will look like a posturing twit. But that, admittedly, didn’t do Johnson much harm over the Benn Act.

    The risk is perhaps looking like a single issue party when there are so many other things they need to be addressing. But equally, the lack of a serious rival makes that less of an issue.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 10,319

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Longing for one's own country to be defeated is such a yucky look.

    I am enormously heartened by Boris's uncompromising stance at present, but he needs, before the end, to find a way for everyone to win. The EU won't take a deal where they are seen as vanquished and humiliated - they would sooner the EU economy suffers. I am not sure what Boris can offer the EU in he way of 'wins', but he needs to display imagination in doing so.

    On fishing, Britain must have sovereignty over its own waters. However, people who have said we don't have fishing fleet to fish all the waters now are correct. Fishing can be phased back year by year to give fleets time to build up and hopefully to make the process less jarring for the EU industry. The debate will be over how long.

    Maybe we could give them one of those useless plane-less aircraft carriers. They always did seem to have been purchased with the putative EU army in mind anyway. They'd like that.

    It's things from the left field, that Boris often has a talent for. It would be foolish to bet against him getting a great deal.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 33,856
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    In which case the big Tory majority in the Commons would ensure Boris imposed direct rule on Scotland and suspended Holyrood, Sturgeon should then count herself lucky she would not be arrested for sedition as Catalan nationalists in the Catalan government were by the conservative PP Spanish government when they declared UDI and held an illegal indyref (the Spanish also imposing direct rule on Catalonia)

    We’ve been through this. Boris cannot suspend Holyrood without primary legislation so good luck with that. I doubt the Lords would be cooperative. You’d have to wait at least a year.
    Boris is already starting to pack the Lords with more sympathetic supporters and the Lords can only delay legislation not block it, so Westminster would still legislate over Scotland before imposing full direct rule once the Parliament Act kicked in
    House of Unelected Has-Beens! :lol:
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 10,319
    eadric said:

    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that I spent more time and effort campaigning for the Union in 2014 than anyone else on this site I am aware of. Certain things are indisputable:
    (1) the decision as to whether or not to be an independent country is a decision for the Scots alone, even although it affects others.
    (2) it is because we are fortunate enough to live in a country that recognises that that the majority of us wanted to remain in this great country. Spain is a good example of the alternative and it is not attractive.
    (3) the logic of (1) is that it is the Scottish people who decide when we have another referendum, if we do, not the SNP and not Nicola Sturgeon.
    (4) if Scots vote by a majority for parties committed to holding that referendum within the next term of the Scottish Parliament that is their democratic choice.
    (5) an attempt by non Scots to defy that choice will destroy the unionist cause in Scotland. The union would be doomed.

    It really is as simple and stark as that.

    Were that to happen on a turnout of 65% - 70% , I would tend to agree. However, the more typical Holyrood turnout of circa 50% might not be sufficient to negate the 2014 Referendum result obtained on circa 85%.
    This is a good point. The pressure on Boris to agree indyref2 will depend very much on the strength of the SNP result in 2021

    If sturgeon gets an absolute majority of seats then Boris’ position is very difficult (tho for reasons adduced I think he might still say No). But the SNP would be able to stoke grievance here and might win the day.

    But an overall Nat maj is unlikely.

    More likely she will get a coalition with the Greens and then Boris can rightly say there is no coherent position, status quo ante. And I reckon that would work

    Look at Catalunya. The Madrid government has (scandalously, to my mind) actually jailed secessionist leaders and violently repressed dissent. And the result? Support for independence has at best flatlined, or even fallen.

    I don’t agree with HYUFD that London would go so far as troops or cops, but there is evidence that a firm line from a capital city can work. Especially when London can say Look we already gave you a vote a few years ago, you lost, shut up.

    It all depends on the details of the Holyrood election. Turnout will also be crucial.
    What would be great is for the SNP to be voted out of office. That has to be the goal, however tough it may seem.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 57,911
    101% turnout lol
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 30,280

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Different team, different majority - you should have noticed. Can you please enlighten me on the detail the EU offering.
    Do you mean apart from all their public presentations on their negotiating objectives and the 33 page document released today?



    You do realise we have less than 11 months to go?
    Err... I thought it all had to be sorted by July, or at least know by July that it could be signed by December or else it was No Deal on 1st Jan 2021?
    Nothing needs to be signed by July.

    An extension needs to be requested by July but since the government has said its not requesting an extension that's moot.
    The whole July thing is a crock, because the UK and the EU could agree a codicil to the Withdrawal Agreement that changed the asking for an extension deadline to 31 December if they so chose.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 5,528
    CNN at an Iowa caucus in Florida!

    Klobuchar 48

    Buttigieg 38

    Biden 33

    Warren 12

    Sanders 1
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 57,911
    Klobuchar, Biden and Buttigieg make the cut in Port Charlotte

    No votes for Bloomberg
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 30,473
    rcs1000 said:

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Different team, different majority - you should have noticed. Can you please enlighten me on the detail the EU offering.
    Do you mean apart from all their public presentations on their negotiating objectives and the 33 page document released today?



    You do realise we have less than 11 months to go?
    Err... I thought it all had to be sorted by July, or at least know by July that it could be signed by December or else it was No Deal on 1st Jan 2021?
    Nothing needs to be signed by July.

    An extension needs to be requested by July but since the government has said its not requesting an extension that's moot.
    The whole July thing is a crock, because the UK and the EU could agree a codicil to the Withdrawal Agreement that changed the asking for an extension deadline to 31 December if they so chose.
    Indeed, it has about as much meaning as Theresa May writing 29 March 2019 into law had meaning. Its one of those things that if it needs to be changed, it will be changed, and if there's no will to change it, it won't be anyway.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 10,319
    rcs1000 said:

    alterego said:

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Different team, different majority - you should have noticed. Can you please enlighten me on the detail the EU offering.
    Do you mean apart from all their public presentations on their negotiating objectives and the 33 page document released today?



    You do realise we have less than 11 months to go?
    Err... I thought it all had to be sorted by July, or at least know by July that it could be signed by December or else it was No Deal on 1st Jan 2021?
    Nothing needs to be signed by July.

    An extension needs to be requested by July but since the government has said its not requesting an extension that's moot.
    The whole July thing is a crock, because the UK and the EU could agree a codicil to the Withdrawal Agreement that changed the asking for an extension deadline to 31 December if they so chose.
    The EU came up with a lengthy list of demands in the space of weeks. There is no justification for further delay. They need to get their finger out.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 30,473

    The EU came up with a lengthy list of demands in the space of weeks. There is no justification for further delay. They need to get their finger out.

    It was interesting seeing even Tusk say that no extension was needed.

    JFDI.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 29,743

    eadric said:

    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that I spent more time and effort campaigning for the Union in 2014 than anyone else on this site I am aware of. Certain things are indisputable:
    (1) the decision as to whether or not to be an independent country is a decision for the Scots alone, even although it affects others.
    (2) it is because we are fortunate enough to live in a country that recognises that that the majority of us wanted to remain in this great country. Spain is a good example of the alternative and it is not attractive.
    (3) the logic of (1) is that it is the Scottish people who decide when we have another referendum, if we do, not the SNP and not Nicola Sturgeon.
    (4) if Scots vote by a majority for parties committed to holding that referendum within the next term of the Scottish Parliament that is their democratic choice.
    (5) an attempt by non Scots to defy that choice will destroy the unionist cause in Scotland. The union would be doomed.

    It really is as simple and stark as that.

    Were that to happen on a turnout of 65% - 70% , I would tend to agree. However, the more typical Holyrood turnout of circa 50% might not be sufficient to negate the 2014 Referendum result obtained on circa 85%.
    This is a good point. The pressure on Boris to agree indyref2 will depend very much on the strength of the SNP result in 2021

    If sturgeon gets an absolute majority of seats then Boris’ position is very difficult (tho for reasons adduced I think he might still say No). But the SNP would be able to stoke grievance here and might win the day.

    But an overall Nat maj is unlikely.

    More likely she will get a coalition with the Greens and then Boris can rightly say there is no coherent position, status quo ante. And I reckon that would work

    Look at Catalunya. The Madrid government has (scandalously, to my mind) actually jailed secessionist leaders and violently repressed dissent. And the result? Support for independence has at best flatlined, or even fallen.

    I don’t agree with HYUFD that London would go so far as troops or cops, but there is evidence that a firm line from a capital city can work. Especially when London can say Look we already gave you a vote a few years ago, you lost, shut up.

    It all depends on the details of the Holyrood election. Turnout will also be crucial.
    What would be great is for the SNP to be voted out of office. That has to be the goal, however tough it may seem.
    And the best chance of that is if they commit themselves to another referendum within the term if Scotland really doesn’t want that.
  • eadriceadric Posts: 2,004

    alterego said:

    The EU has the stronger position so they win.

    Remember Mrs May's Lancaster House speech or any of Boris Johnson's speeches on Brexit, their rhetoric met reality.
    I am not at all sure the EU will win this.

    Boris seems set on taking them on and in his speech today he made an excellent case on how the UK standards are higher, that France and Germany have broken state aid rules on dozens of occasions, and we lead on environment issues

    Reading the threads since friday the same stale arguments drift backward and forward between both sides unfortunately still entrenched, but things are very different now and Boris has an 80 seat majority to call the EU's bluff

    One thing is certain it is going to be a fascinating year
    Are you actually praising the vacuous speech Boris gave today?
    Now is the time for detail not bravado.
    Up front is absolutely not the time for detail in any negotiation. Detail comes last.
    Tell that to the EU who are far better negotiators than the idiots on ‘our’ side.
    Longing for one's own country to be defeated is such a yucky look.

    I am enormously heartened by Boris's uncompromising stance at present, but he needsneeds to display imagination in doing so.

    On fishing, Britain must have sovereignty over its own waters. However, people who have said we don't have fishing fleet to fish all the waters now are correct. Fishing can be phased back year by year to give fleets time to build up and hopefully to make the process less jarring for the EU industry. The debate will be over how long.

    Maybe we could give them one of those useless plane-less aircraft carriers. They always did seem to have been purchased with the putative EU army in mind anyway. They'd like that.

    It's things from the left field, that Boris often has a talent for. It would be foolish to bet against him getting a great deal.

    Fishing is the EU’s Achilles Heel. We think it matters to us, but read the EU press and it matters way more to them. France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark all have weak coalition or election-facing governments which can be screwed nut deep on this issue. And they know it. And in, say, France, governments have a history of capitulating to angry worker minorities.

    Fuck them. Go to the brink. They might just fold.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 10,319
    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that I spent more time and effort campaigning for the Union in 2014 than anyone else on this site I am aware of. Certain things are indisputable:
    (1) the decision as to whether or not to be an independent country is a decision for the Scots alone, even although it affects others.
    (2) it is because we are fortunate enough to live in a country that recognises that that the majority of us wanted to remain in this great country. Spain is a good example of the alternative and it is not attractive.
    (3) the logic of (1) is that it is the Scottish people who decide when we have another referendum, if we do, not the SNP and not Nicola Sturgeon.
    (4) if Scots vote by a majority for parties committed to holding that referendum within the next term of the Scottish Parliament that is their democratic choice.
    (5) an attempt by non Scots to defy that choice will destroy the unionist cause in Scotland. The union would be doomed.

    It really is as simple and stark as that.

    Were that to happen on a turnout of 65% - 70% , I would tend to agree. However, the more typical Holyrood turnout of circa 50% might not be sufficient to negate the 2014 Referendum result obtained on circa 85%.
    This is a good point. The pressure on Boris to agree indyref2 will depend very much on the strength of the SNP result in 2021

    If sturgeon gets an absolute majority of seats then Boris’ position is very difficult (tho for reasons adduced I think he might still say No). But the SNP would be able to stoke grievance here and might win the day.

    But an overall Nat maj is unlikely.

    More likely she will get a coalition with the Greens and then Boris can rightly say there is no coherent position, status quo ante. And I reckon that would work

    Look at Catalunya. The Madrid government has (scandalously, to my mind) actually jailed secessionist leaders and violently repressed dissent. And the result? Support for independence has at best flatlined, or even fallen.

    I don’t agree with HYUFD that London would go so far as troops or cops, but there is evidence that a firm line from a capital city can work. Especially when London can say Look we already gave you a vote a few years ago, you lost, shut up.

    It all depends on the details of the Holyrood election. Turnout will also be crucial.
    What would be great is for the SNP to be voted out of office. That has to be the goal, however tough it may seem.
    And the best chance of that is if they commit themselves to another referendum within the term if Scotland really doesn’t want that.
    Yes. And a few other stars aligning.

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,935
    Bristol West CLP pulls a goal back for RLB. 3-2.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 2,832

    Bristol West CLP pulls a goal back for RLB. 3-2.

    The members on the front line against the Green threat know how Labour needs to respond.
  • Sinn Fein in government across the island of Ireland?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 57,911
    edited February 3
    Charlotte:
    Klobuchar 48
    Buttigieg 38
    Biden 33

    To redistribute:

    Warren 12
    Steyer 2
    Sanders 1
    Yang 1
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 29,743

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that I spent more time and effort campaigning for the Union in 2014 than anyone else on this site I am aware of. Certain things are indisputable:
    (1) the decision as to whether or not to be an independent country is a decision for the Scots alone, even although it affects others.
    (2) it is because we are fortunate enough to live in a country that recognises that that the majority of us wanted to remain in this great country. Spain is a good example of the alternative and it is not attractive.
    (3) the logic of (1) is that it is the Scottish people who decide when we have another referendum, if we do, not the SNP and not Nicola Sturgeon.
    (4) if Scots vote by a majority for parties committed to holding that referendum within the next term of the Scottish Parliament that is their democratic choice.
    (5) an attempt by non Scots to defy that choice will destroy the unionist cause in Scotland. The union would be doomed.

    It really is as simple and stark as that.

    Were that to happen on a turnout of 65% - 70% , I would tend to agree. However, the more typical Holyrood turnout of circa 50% might not be sufficient to negate the 2014 Referendum result obtained on circa 85%.
    This is a good point. The pressure on Boris to agree indyref2 will depend very much on the strength of the SNP result in 2021

    If sturgeon gets an absolute majority of seats then Boris’ position is very difficult (tho for reasons adduced I think he might still say No). But the SNP would be able to stoke grievance here and might win the day.

    But an overall Nat maj is unlikely.

    More likely she will get a coalition with the Greens and then Boris can rightly say there is no coherent position, status quo ante. And I reckon that would work

    Look at Catalunya. The Madrid government has (scandalously, to my mind) actually jailed secessionist leaders and violently repressed dissent. And the result? Support for independence has at best flatlined, or even fallen.

    I don’t agree with HYUFD that London would go so far as troops or cops, but there is evidence that a firm line from a capital city can work. Especially when London can say Look we already gave you a vote a few years ago, you lost, shut up.

    It all depends on the details of the Holyrood election. Turnout will also be crucial.
    What would be great is for the SNP to be voted out of office. That has to be the goal, however tough it may seem.
    And the best chance of that is if they commit themselves to another referendum within the term if Scotland really doesn’t want that.
    Yes. And a few other stars aligning.

    Next months trial just might move the dial.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 18,067
    So what happens if the Shinners win in Ireland?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,935
    And Chelmsford CLP equalises! SKS 3 - 3 RLB
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 30,280

    Longing for one's own country to be defeated is such a yucky look.

    I am enormously heartened by Boris's uncompromising stance at present, but he needs, before the end, to find a way for everyone to win. The EU won't take a deal where they are seen as vanquished and humiliated - they would sooner the EU economy suffers. I am not sure what Boris can offer the EU in he way of 'wins', but he needs to display imagination in doing so.

    On fishing, Britain must have sovereignty over its own waters. However, people who have said we don't have fishing fleet to fish all the waters now are correct. Fishing can be phased back year by year to give fleets time to build up and hopefully to make the process less jarring for the EU industry. The debate will be over how long.

    Maybe we could give them one of those useless plane-less aircraft carriers. They always did seem to have been purchased with the putative EU army in mind anyway. They'd like that.

    It's things from the left field, that Boris often has a talent for. It would be foolish to bet against him getting a great deal.

    On fishing, imagine you're an entrepreneur on the West Coast of Scotland.

    You bid for some fishing licenses, which are valid for three years. You win them.

    Do you:

    (a) wet lease a fishing vessel from a Norwegian, Spanish, Chilean or Canadian firm?
    or
    (b) buy a fishing vessel, and then train staff?

    I can't see the people who go down the (b) route being able to compete in terms of what they'll pay for licenses compared to (a). Indeed, unless fishing licenses are perpetual*, then who the hell is going to sink capital into buying ships and training fishermen?

    This is not an EU or non-EU point. It's simply that the nature of fishing licenses (i.e. short term permission to fish) encourages people with them to enter into flexible agreements with people who have boats and trained crews.

    * Perpetual fishing licenses open a whole other can of worms
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 2,832
    MikeL said:

    CNN at an Iowa caucus in Florida!

    Klobuchar 48

    Buttigieg 38

    Biden 33

    Warren 12

    Sanders 1

    Ladbrokes don't even have 1-2-3 bet options with Klob winning. Savage.
  • I'm feeling a little better about my strategy of laying the old guys in this Dem nomination.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 2,495

    I do think a main cause of violence in the 70s and 80s was too much religion and violence and not enough working for a living. People with a steady job who need it to pay the bills don't often turn to violence.

    Rubbish!

    The cause for violence was the long held grievances of part of the population being rated as 2nd class citizens with worse housing and worse opportunities because of their religion. It also did not help that the police and govt were largely run by a cabal intent on making sure that they stayed at the top of the power pyramid.

    It all started from a religious / social difference that got out of control when the mobsters realised that they had a them/us division that they could exploit.

    The Northern Ireland Troubles were just a miniature version of earlier repressions since Cromwell's time.
  • MaxPB said:

    So what happens if the Shinners win in Ireland?

    Probably the pressure for a border poll becomes inevitable.

    The DUP really did shit the bed when they backed Brexit.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 30,280
    I know it's incredibly early days, but is anyone other than Klobuchar, Buttigieg and Sanders going to get any traction tonight?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,935
    No idea what this is about. These were the draws. Looks dodgy.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 30,280
    Pulpstar said:

    Charlotte:
    Klobuchar 48
    Buttigieg 38
    Biden 33

    To redistribute:

    Warren 12
    Steyer 2
    Sanders 1
    Yang 1

    I think a lot of those Warren voters will go to Klobuchar. Indeed, I think Warren -> Klobuchar switchers could be absolutely crucial tonight.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 29,743
    rcs1000 said:

    Longing for one's own country to be defeated is such a yucky look.

    I am enormously heartened by Boris's uncompromising stance at present, but he needs, before the end, to find a way for everyone to win. The EU won't take a deal where they are seen as vanquished and humiliated - they would sooner the EU economy suffers. I am not sure what Boris can offer the EU in he way of 'wins', but he needs to display imagination in doing so.

    On fishing, Britain must have sovereignty over its own waters. However, people who have said we don't have fishing fleet to fish all the waters now are correct. Fishing can be phased back year by year to give fleets time to build up and hopefully to make the process less jarring for the EU industry. The debate will be over how long.

    Maybe we could give them one of those useless plane-less aircraft carriers. They always did seem to have been purchased with the putative EU army in mind anyway. They'd like that.

    It's things from the left field, that Boris often has a talent for. It would be foolish to bet against him getting a great deal.

    On fishing, imagine you're an entrepreneur on the West Coast of Scotland.

    You bid for some fishing licenses, which are valid for three years. You win them.

    Do you:

    (a) wet lease a fishing vessel from a Norwegian, Spanish, Chilean or Canadian firm?
    or
    (b) buy a fishing vessel, and then train staff?

    I can't see the people who go down the (b) route being able to compete in terms of what they'll pay for licenses compared to (a). Indeed, unless fishing licenses are perpetual*, then who the hell is going to sink capital into buying ships and training fishermen?

    This is not an EU or non-EU point. It's simply that the nature of fishing licenses (i.e. short term permission to fish) encourages people with them to enter into flexible agreements with people who have boats and trained crews.

    * Perpetual fishing licenses open a whole other can of worms
    What we really need to do with fishing is require more of the catch to be landed and processed in the UK. That would do far more for fishing communities than giving more licenses to rich buggers to sell once again just like they did the last time. There are far more jobs onshore than on the boats and damn few of them left in north east Scotland.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 10,265
    eadric said:



    I just watched that Boris speech. It’s one of the best English language political speeches, I’ve seen, since Obama’s speech on race in Philadelphia (which for me is the benchmark of great modern English language Political speeches)

    Witty, clever, firm when necessary, candid, interesting, and occasionally inspiring. Bit dull on eu law versus Uk law, but that was necessary in the circumstances.

    Boris is growing into the role. This won’t please his haters, who will never see good in him, but he is gaining in stature.

    I have a special interest in political speeches and your recommendation listened to Johnson's speech. I tried to give him the benefit of a big doubt, maybe not entirely successfully. I agree Johnson is a good speechmaker, he's fluent and he knows how to engage an audience. A total contrast to Theresa May.

    The speech was let down in my view by the emptiness and dishonesty at its heart. Johnson appears to be ignorant about lots of things, which is perhaps surprising for someone who projects a persona of intelligence and cleverness. As a stump speech where you don't say anything much, except trying to get an audience on your side, maybe it was fine. The overall effect was of peevishness, which as far as I know isn't Johnson's normal style.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,935
    Where’s the best place to follow Iowa?
  • eadriceadric Posts: 2,004

    MaxPB said:

    So what happens if the Shinners win in Ireland?

    Probably the pressure for a border poll becomes inevitable.

    The DUP really did shit the bed when they backed Brexit.
    No, it won’t. Jesus Remainers have lost the plot. Even sensible ones like you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 26,335

    MaxPB said:

    So what happens if the Shinners win in Ireland?

    Probably the pressure for a border poll becomes inevitable.

    The DUP really did shit the bed when they backed Brexit.
    Surely that’s if they win in Northern Ireland? The South isn’t the determining factor or Northern Ireland would have been part of the Free State in the time of Collins.
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