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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Number 10’s power-grab is sowing the seeds of its own failure

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  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,928
    Who else is inspired by Sir Ed Davey?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of th

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    It is undeniably true that we are losing rights with Brexit, including the right to free movement, and the ability to trade without restriction across the EU27.

    It is reasonable for @Casino_Royale to claim that for him the price of those rights were too high, but to deny that we are losing those rights is simply wrong.
    No-one has been able to give me a real life practical example of how losing these rights will affect them.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I will no longer have the right to live, work and study in 27 plus European countries. In practical terms, I should still be able to because I am relatively wealthy. But it will not be a right independent of decisions taken by the governments of the countries concerned, as it is now.

    Then there are things like just being able to drive in any EU country with your UK driving licence alone. That will no lomger be an automatic right, Neither will being able to take your pet on holiday, if you wish to. There are many, many other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    Except, they don't because they're still easilt exercisible.

    You can drive with an international driving licence (a fiver), you can still work with a visa (just as for any other Western country ) and you can live and retire, subject to income thresholds.

    Pet passport arrangements will be forthcoming too.

    So no there's no loss of freedom. Maybe a tad of administrative inconvenience- thats it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 17,790
    Totally O/t and because it might start a football discussion the BBC is reporting that The Oxford English Dictionary has changed its definition of the word Yid to include a "supporter of or player for Tottenham Hotspur".
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499

    @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm irritated by the europhile posse who are still putting out their (entirely synthetic) crocodile tears on here and demonstrating more loyalty to the EU than their own country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    That's a better and more constructive post. Well done. See how easy it is to engage like that?

    I disagree because of the price that came with that. So hence we are in disagreement.

    It's nothing more complex than that.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 17,790
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:



    It is entirely a decision for the Northern Ireland Secretary whether to hold a border poll under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which implemented the GFA actually

    No, the Act provides that in certain circs he *shall* hold a poll, whether he likes it or not.

    What satisfaction do you derive from this oafish, ill-informed absolutism?
    Only in the circumstances where it looks like there will be a vote to leave the UK and with more Unionist votes than Nationalist votes in NI at the general election currently that is not the case.

    The NI Act is also likely to be amended to ensure the Secretary of State's decision is final whatever your distaste for your own country may say
    The last time they tried that things did not go well for them and they got chucked out.
    Is HYUFD saying that the NI Act will be amended so that even if it appeared there might be a majority for a poll the SoS could turn not down?
    Yes he is saying they will do same as they are currently doing to Scotland and deny democracy. They are turning it into a English dictatorship.
    Well, Johnson's never struck me as a democrat.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,026
    Jonathan said:

    Who else is inspired by Sir Ed Davey?

    Er....maybe his mum? (Although, admittedly, not much since that school nativity when he played the arse-end of the donkey....)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499

    Mango said:



    Objectively, Stewart is probably the best candidate. Khan is no great shakes, Bailey is worse. The others are pointless. Khan will win by a landslide, though.

    It's pretty tragic that you spend all day posting about rights, liberalism, democracy, decentralisation, rule of law and accountability, and then describe the candidates running on those platforms as "pointless".

    I have a different conception of tragedy to you.

    You must do since your Twitter account is wholly tragic.
  • Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of th

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    It is undeniably true that we are losing rights with Brexit, including the right to free movement, and the ability to trade without restriction across the EU27.

    It is reasonable for @Casino_Royale to claim that for him the price of those rights were too high, but to deny that we are losing those rights is simply wrong.
    No-one has been able to give me a real life practical example of how losing these rights will affect them.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    Except, they don't because they're still easilt exercisible.

    You can drive with an international driving licence (a fiver), you can still work with a visa (just as for any other Western country ) and you can live and retire, subject to income thresholds.

    Pet passport arrangements will be forthcoming too.

    So no there's no loss of freedom. Maybe a tad of administrative inconvenience- thats it.

    I will not have the right to do any of these things. If I have enough money or the time to do the paper work I may be able to do them, subject to government whim, but that is very different. In losing rights I lose freedoms.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,928
    I went through Schiphol this week. Someone has glued an A4 printed Union Jack to the EU passport channel. When I arrived in Gatwick, the blue channel was diverted into the green channel with an plywood office partition.

    In the transition period, there is no control taken back nor a loss of rights. This is the phoney Brexit, the real Brexit is yet to come. Only Cummings knows what that might be.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 2,343
    Gabs3 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:


    I am right; you are wrong.

    It really is that simple.

    When PB’ers are reduced to posting vacuous arrogant crap like this here, we can safely assume that they have lost it.
    Yes, I'm also tired of SO vacuous arrogant crap.
    He is at least still throwing punches. You’re a crumpled heap on the canvas still insisting you should be the winner.
    :D:D

    Brexiteers really do make the worst winners
    Brexit is turning into ashes in their mouths.
    It is amazing the effect of social media on us all. It allows everyone to throw insults about with the cloak of distance and anonymity reducing the social cost. That in turn causes people on the other side to want to feel like we are "winning" over those bastards insulting us. And the easiest way to do that is to arrogantly talk to others on our own side in view of the bastards about how much they are losing. That in turn makes the other side hate us and throw more insults. And so goes on the vicious circle.

    Us pro-EU people haven't stopped to think how badly we have lost over the last few years. We lost the referendum, we lost by default the fight for a soft Brexit because we didn't fight it, we lost Theresa May's medium Brexit, and then we lost the election. Smugly pretending we actually won because it's a Pyrrhic victory for the Leavers is both incorrect and motivates the other side so we will keep on losing.

    I despair about how my would-be allies are putting what makes them feel emotionally better over what will actually win political battles. We need a Rejoin majority in parliament. That means keeping Scotland and Northern Ireland in the UK and winning back seats in leafy southern suburbs and working class towns in the North and Midlands. People need to start thinking about the tone and messages that will do that. Not just in election campaigns but on an ongoing basis leading up to them.
    Please do not post intelligent, thought out comments on current affairs on PB. It will upset the other lifeforms.
  • kjh said:

    kjh said:

    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    ‪It ‬

    You

    No, it’s fact. rights we lose over the next few years.

    Non sequitur.

    Those rights are ones I never asked for and never wanted.

    I was forced to become an EU citizen in 1993 and never had a vote on it.
    My word, ihe happiest day of her life
    They want to play the victim, so they can rail against the villians and feel sanctimonious about it.

    They objectives.
    CR - then?
    It's reciprocal

    If view.
    Good answer. As you can guess I value the rights we have lost over the rights we have gained.
    What do?

    I have never had to rely on my right to habeas corpus. That doesn't mean I am not glad it exists.

    You ECJ here.

    You're welcome.

    The

    Wrong.

    N


    I am right; you are wrong.

    It really is that simple.

    In which case, you will be able to show how. I will not hold my breath.

    No, I don't have time to school you today (again). I have a one year old daughter and wife at home. They're a far greater priority than you.

    I'veday.

    You're a waste of my time.

    I agree that you are much better off spending time with your family than in trying to prove something that isn't true.

    It is true.

    You didn't even understand how the treaties worked earlier, or how ECJ jurisdiction applies in the UK.

    You are just a pointless waste of time who wants to win a point.

    It's sad and pathetic.

    I do understand, clearly a whole lot better than you. It has been an integral part of the work I do for the last 28 years.

    You don't understand as your posts upthread have demonstrated.

    Sorry.

    I do understand, but I also understand that you will not admit that.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,928

    Jonathan said:

    Who else is inspired by Sir Ed Davey?

    Er....maybe his mum? (Although, admittedly, not much since that school nativity when he played the arse-end of the donkey....)
    Lincoln, Roosevelt, Churchill, Attlee, Thatcher, Blair, Davey.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 18,098
    Jonathan said:

    And the half time scores in an ill tempered match are.

    3 Queen of the Southam - Casino Rangers 2

    Pitch invasion by a triumphant Remainer Inter City Firm at the final whistle?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,026

    @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm irritated by the europhile posse who are still putting out their (entirely synthetic) crocodile tears on here and demonstrating more loyalty to the EU than their own country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    Sad for you, 17.4m of your fellow citizens thought otherwise.

    Get over it. You are sounding as whiney as a three year old, complaining your tube of Smarties had no red ones in it.....
  • @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm irritated by the europhile posse who are still putting out their (entirely synthetic) crocodile tears on here and demonstrating more loyalty to the EU than their own country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    I accept that these rights will be missed by many but we are leaving the EU and those who value these benefits need to campaign to re-join or at the very least try to influence the debate to a BINO

    Continuing the arguments in the referendum is so stale now and a new positive vision close to the EU is more likely to gain support, than constant moaning about the result

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    ‪It ‬

    You

    No, it’s fact. rights we lose over the next few years.

    Non sequitur.

    Those rights are ones I never asked for and never wanted.

    I was forced to become an EU citizen in 1993 and never had a vote on it.
    My word, ihe happiest day of her life
    They

    They objectives.
    CR - then?
    It's reciprocal

    If view.
    Good answer. As you can guess I value the rights we have lost over the rights we have gained.
    What do?

    I have never had to rely on my right to habeas corpus. That doesn't mean I am not glad it exists.

    You ECJ here.

    You're welcome.

    The

    Wrong.

    N


    I am right; you are wrong.

    It really is that simple.

    In which case, you will be able to show how. I will not hold my breath.

    No

    I'veday.

    You're a waste of my time.

    I agree that you are much better off spending time with your family than in trying to prove something that isn't true.

    It is true.

    You didn't even understand how the treaties worked earlier, or how ECJ jurisdiction applies in the UK.

    You are just a pointless waste of time who wants to win a point.

    It's sad and pathetic.

    I do understand, clearly a whole lot better than you. It has been an integral part of the work I do for the last 28 years.

    You don't understand as your posts upthread have demonstrated.

    Sorry.

    I do understand, but I also understand that you will not admit that.

    It's very sad that you won't admit you're wrong.

    Others will draw their own conclusions about you over that.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,928
    I am trying to get to the 100 Great Ed Davey Speeches website, but keep getting a 404 error.
  • Mango said:



    Objectively, Stewart is probably the best candidate. Khan is no great shakes, Bailey is worse. The others are pointless. Khan will win by a landslide, though.

    It's pretty tragic that you spend all day posting about rights, liberalism, democracy, decentralisation, rule of law and accountability, and then describe the candidates running on those platforms as "pointless".

    I have a different conception of tragedy to you.

    You must do since your Twitter account is wholly tragic.

    I am delighted it stirs such emotions in you. Thank-you.

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,304

    @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm irritated by the europhile posse who are still putting out their (entirely synthetic) crocodile tears on here and demonstrating more loyalty to the EU than their own country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    Exactly . Leavers seem to be unable to understand that Remainers can have an alternate view as to what they think is better for the country .

    We get slated as either being unpatriotic and siding with some mythical enemy . This is the playbook of those who want a dictatorship , because any dissent is viewed as working against the state .

    British interests IMO were best served by being part of the EU but Leavers refuse to accept that as a valid argument .

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,928
    Apparently the Chinese have offered to Brexit in two weeks.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 2,343
    IshmaelZ said:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHASE

    Basically - 1) if you don't carefully rig the ship to make everything go bang, very little does. 2) The weight of actual explosive is a small proportion of the total weight 3) Water does a great job in dampening underwater explosions.

    All the stuff about tidal waves wiping out the locality around the Montgomery are horse manure.

    Um, from your own link, in CHASE 2 "Village was loaded with 7348 short tons of munitions at the Naval Weapons Station Earle and towed to a deep-water dump site on 17 September 1964. There were three large and unexpected detonations five minutes after Village slipped beneath the surface. An oil slick and some debris appeared on the surface. The explosion registered on seismic equipment all over the world."

    No chance of anything going wrong then. Ever.
    The point gathered from the CHASE sinkings was that sympathetic detonation of the entire cargo without extensive preparation didn't happen. From the point of view of observers on the surface they were also rather boring.

    Making seismic systems go bump doesn't mean devastation of the locality. It's more to do with the depth of the detonation and coupling with the SOFAR channel.
  • kjh said:

    kjh said:

    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    ‪It ‬

    You

    No, it’s fact. rights we lose over the next few years.

    Non sequitur.

    Those rights are ones I never asked for and never wanted.

    I won it.
    My word, ihe happiest day of her life
    They

    They objectives.
    CR - then?
    It's reciprocal

    If view.
    Good answer. As you can guess I value the rights we have lost over the rights we have gained.
    What do?

    I have never had to rely on my right to habeas corpus. That doesn't mean I am not glad it exists.

    You ECJ here.

    You're welcome.

    The

    Wrong.

    N


    I am right; you are wrong.

    It really is that simple.

    In which case, you will be able to show how. I will not hold my breath.

    No

    I'veday.

    You're a waste of my time.

    I true.

    It is true.

    You didn't even understand how the treaties worked earlier, or how ECJ jurisdiction applies in the UK.

    You are just a pointless waste of time who wants to win a point.

    It's sad and pathetic.

    I do understand, clearly a whole lot better than you. It has been an integral part of the work I do for the last 28 years.

    You don't understand as your posts upthread have demonstrated.

    Sorry.

    I do understand, but I also understand that you will not admit that.

    It's very sad that you won't admit you're wrong.

    Others will draw their own conclusions about you over that.

    Yes, I think that people will draw their own conclusions about our exchanges today.

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 2,470

    I've had plenty to celebrate since that date. You? How's your Remain bunting looking?

    I never had any bunting. If Remain had won, I would not have partied nor told Leavers to "suck it up - we won"
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of th

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    It is undeniably true that we are losing rights with Brexit, including the right to free movement, and the ability to trade without restriction across the EU27.

    It is reasonable for @Casino_Royale to claim that for him the price of those rights were too high, but to deny that we are losing those rights is simply wrong.
    No-one has been able to give me a real life practical example of how losing these rights will affect them.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I will not have the right to do any of these things. If I have enough money or the time to do the paper work I may be able to do them, subject to government whim, but that is very different. In losing rights I lose freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 745
    OllyT said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of the ECHR.

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    Bollocks. Why can't you not talk bollocks?

    It's not hard. Just use your brain.

    Why can't you make your case? Why do you throw insults instead?

    Because you really piss me off and push my buttons.

    Stop being so provocative if you want a sensible conversation.

    I'm sure your wife makes similar comments to you privately.
    It's quite clear to most of that it is you not SO who would benefit from an anger management course. You are starting to come across as a nasty piece of work, I suggest you take a time out.
    Both sides of this argument are engaging in insults, smugness and dismissiveness. All it does is piss each other off, put us in defensive and close-minded psychologies and make our democracy less workable.
  • @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm irritated by the europhile posse who are still putting out their (entirely synthetic) crocodile tears on here and demonstrating more loyalty to the EU than their own country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    I accept that these rights will be missed by many but we are leaving the EU and those who value these benefits need to campaign to re-join or at the very least try to influence the debate to a BINO

    Continuing the arguments in the referendum is so stale now and a new positive vision close to the EU is more likely to gain support, than constant moaning about the result

    I accept the result. This entire conversation began because CR objected to the notion that next year UK citizens will be losing rights and freedoms that they currently have. I don't understand why he finds that self-evident truth so hard to admit, but he does.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 17,790

    @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm irritated by the europhile posse who are still putting out their (entirely synthetic) crocodile tears on here and demonstrating more loyalty to the EU than their own country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    I accept that these rights will be missed by many but we are leaving the EU and those who value these benefits need to campaign to re-join or at the very least try to influence the debate to a BINO

    Continuing the arguments in the referendum is so stale now and a new positive vision close to the EU is more likely to gain support, than constant moaning about the result

    The Rejoin movement is getting going, according to what is coming to my Facebook page. It's not quite got together yet, but it's doing so.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    ‪It ‬

    You

    No, it’s fact. rights we lose over the next few years.

    Non sequitur.

    Those rights are ones I never asked for and never wanted.

    I won it.
    My word, ihe happiest day of her life
    They

    They objectives.
    CR - then?
    It's reciprocal

    If view.
    Good answer. As you can guess I value the rights we have lost over the rights we have gained.
    What do?

    I have never had to rely on my right to habeas corpus. That doesn't mean I am not glad it exists.

    You ECJ here.

    You're welcome.

    The

    Wrong.

    N


    I am right; you are wrong.

    It really is that simple.

    In which case, you will be able to show how. I will not hold my breath.

    No

    I'veday.

    You're a waste of my time.

    I true.

    It

    I

    You don't understand as your posts upthread have demonstrated.

    Sorry.

    I do understand, but I also understand that you will not admit that.

    It's very sad that you won't admit you're wrong.

    Others will draw their own conclusions about you over that.

    Yes, I think that people will draw their own conclusions about our exchanges today.

    Good. And not in your favour as you seem to think.

    Maybe you should try not to come on here and goad people in future (and always have the last word) as a form of cathartic release for you.

    Spend more time with those that love you instead.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,893
    Off topic, I got a great fanboy-esque photo with Keir Starmer last night. Even shook hands with the great man.
  • Gabs3 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:


    I am right; you are wrong.

    It really is that simple.

    When PB’ers are reduced to posting vacuous arrogant crap like this here, we can safely assume that they have lost it.
    Yes, I'm also tired of SO vacuous arrogant crap.
    He is at least still throwing punches. You’re a crumpled heap on the canvas still insisting you should be the winner.
    :D:D

    Brexiteers really do make the worst winners
    Brexit is turning into ashes in their mouths.
    It is amazing the effect of social media on us all. It allows everyone to throw insults about with the cloak of distance and anonymity reducing the social cost. That in turn causes people on the other side to want to feel like we are "winning" over those bastards insulting us. And the easiest way to do that is to arrogantly talk to others on our own side in view of the bastards about how much they are losing. That in turn makes the other side hate us and throw more insults. And so goes on the vicious circle.

    Us pro-EU people haven't stopped to think how badly we have lost over the last few years. We lost the referendum, we lost by default the fight for a soft Brexit because we didn't fight it, we lost Theresa May's medium Brexit, and then we lost the election. Smugly pretending we actually won because it's a Pyrrhic victory for the Leavers is both incorrect and motivates the other side so we will keep on losing.

    I despair about how my would-be allies are putting what makes them feel emotionally better over what will actually win political battles. We need a Rejoin majority in parliament. That means keeping Scotland and Northern Ireland in the UK and winning back seats in leafy southern suburbs and working class towns in the North and Midlands. People need to start thinking about the tone and messages that will do that. Not just in election campaigns but on an ongoing basis leading up to them.
    Please do not post intelligent, thought out comments on current affairs on PB. It will upset the other lifeforms.
    It is a very good post
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 18,098
    edited February 15

    Totally O/t and because it might start a football discussion the BBC is reporting that The Oxford English Dictionary has changed its definition of the word Yid to include a "supporter of or player for Tottenham Hotspur".

    Yeah, I heard that the radio, a bit of a mind bender. I think the justification was that (some) Spurs supporters refer to themselves that way. Opens a can of worms regarding a whole lot of racist epithets I'd have thought.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,463

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of th

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    It is undeniably true that we are losing rights with Brexit, including the right to free movement, and the ability to trade without restriction across the EU27.

    It is reasonable for @Casino_Royale to claim that for him the price of those rights were too high, but to deny that we are losing those rights is simply wrong.
    No-one has been able to give me a real life practical example of how losing these rights will affect them.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I will not have the right to do any of these things. If I have enough money or the time to do the paper work I may be able to do them, subject to government whim, but that is very different. In losing rights I lose freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.
    Take a break. You're on the verge of becoming unhinged.

    Of course, anyone with a brain knows that Brexit is a calamity and soon we will all pay the price for this madness.
  • isamisam Posts: 30,600

    isam said:


    I actually quite like the idea of Freedom of Movement within a bloc of countries, but they have to be of similar economies, and roughly the same amount of people from each country would have to be happy to live in the others. The problem with EU FoM for the UK was that, when Blair allowed the A8 accession, the ratio of ins and outs from and to the new countries was wrong

    When you are driving a Roller, you dont join a car swap club where the others all have Allegros!

    Are we driving a Rolls-Royce? Germany is richer, France is as rich, and relative to many places, Italy and Spain would be a step up too, with better weather to boot. Perhaps our silver lady is the English language, the one every foreigner learns at school.
    Well for the sake of my example, I guess I would say Germany, France, Spain and Italy probably all drive Rolls Royces as well. That's why there wasn't any real desire from your average bloke in the pub to leave the EU when FoM meant freedom to move to those countries and vice versa.

    Now we dont have the freedom to swap our car for theirs anymore, but no one with an Allegro gets their hands on our Roller!

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 2,470

    I do understand, clearly a whole lot better than you. It has been an integral part of the work I do for the last 28 years.

    Oh.... you experts! :D:D
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 33,348
    edited February 15

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of th

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    It is undeniably true that we are losing rights with Brexit, including the right to free movement, and the ability to trade without restriction across the EU27.

    It is reasonable for @Casino_Royale to claim that for him the price of those rights were too high, but to deny that we are losing those rights is simply wrong.
    No-one has been able to give me a real life practical example of how losing these rights will affect them.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I will not have the right to do any of these things. If I have enough money or the time to do the paper work I may be able to do them, subject to government whim, but that is very different. In losing rights I lose freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.

    I have made use of the rights I have had and on frequent occasions. You say you will not miss the rights you are losing and that is absolutely fair enough. I don't know why you can accept others feel differently.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499

    @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm irritated by the europhile posse who are still putting out their (entirely synthetic) crocodile tears on here and demonstrating more loyalty to the EU than their own country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    I accept that these rights will be missed by many but we are leaving the EU and those who value these benefits need to campaign to re-join or at the very least try to influence the debate to a BINO

    Continuing the arguments in the referendum is so stale now and a new positive vision close to the EU is more likely to gain support, than constant moaning about the result

    I accept the result. This entire conversation began because CR objected to the notion that next year UK citizens will be losing rights and freedoms that they currently have. I don't understand why he finds that self-evident truth so hard to admit, but he does.

    Nope, another misrepresentation.

    You are a tragic figure, a pedant, an obsessive and a liar.

    I've got no more time to waste on you. Life's too short.

    No doubt you'll insist on having the last word and claiming some sort of victory over it.

    So be it if it makes you feel better. You clearly need it more than I do. I have a family that's simply more important than you: a professional saddo.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499

    Mango said:



    Objectively, Stewart is probably the best candidate. Khan is no great shakes, Bailey is worse. The others are pointless. Khan will win by a landslide, though.

    It's pretty tragic that you spend all day posting about rights, liberalism, democracy, decentralisation, rule of law and accountability, and then describe the candidates running on those platforms as "pointless".

    I have a different conception of tragedy to you.

    You must do since your Twitter account is wholly tragic.

    I am delighted it stirs such emotions in you. Thank-you.

    Not anymore.

    I unfollowed you months ago.
  • @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm irritated by the europhile posse who are still putting out their (entirely synthetic) crocodile tears on here and demonstrating more loyalty to the EU than their own country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    I accept that these rights will be missed by many but we are leaving the EU and those who value these benefits need to campaign to re-join or at the very least try to influence the debate to a BINO

    Continuing the arguments in the referendum is so stale now and a new positive vision close to the EU is more likely to gain support, than constant moaning about the result

    I accept the result. This entire conversation began because CR objected to the notion that next year UK citizens will be losing rights and freedoms that they currently have. I don't understand why he finds that self-evident truth so hard to admit, but he does.

    Nope, another misrepresentation.

    You are a tragic figure, a pedant, an obsessive and a liar.

    I've got no more time to waste on you. Life's too short.

    No doubt you'll insist on having the last word and claiming some sort of victory over it.

    So be it if it makes you feel better. You clearly need it more than I do. I have a family that's simply more important than you: a professional saddo.

    Have a great afternoon!

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 52,540
    edited February 15

    Gabs3 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:


    I am right; you are wrong.

    It really is that simple.

    When PB’ers are reduced to posting vacuous arrogant crap like this here, we can safely assume that they have lost it.
    Yes, I'm also tired of SO vacuous arrogant crap.
    He is at least still throwing punches. You’re a crumpled heap on the canvas still insisting you should be the winner.
    :D:D

    Brexiteers really do make the worst winners
    Brexit is turning into ashes in their mouths.
    It is amazing the effect of social media on us all. It allows everyone to throw insults about with the cloak of distance and anonymity reducing the social cost. That in turn causes people on the other side to want to feel like we are "winning" over those bastards insulting us. And the easiest way to do that is to arrogantly talk to others on our own side in view of the bastards about how much they are losing. That in turn makes the other side hate us and throw more insults. And so goes on the vicious circle.

    Us pro-EU people haven't stopped to think how badly we have lost over the last few years. We lost the referendum, we lost by default the fight for a soft Brexit because we didn't fight it, we lost Theresa May's medium Brexit, and then we lost the election. Smugly pretending we actually won because it's a Pyrrhic victory for the Leavers is both incorrect and motivates the other side so we will keep on losing.

    I despair about how my would-be allies are putting what makes them feel emotionally better over what will actually win political battles. We need a Rejoin majority in parliament. That means keeping Scotland and Northern Ireland in the UK and winning back seats in leafy southern suburbs and working class towns in the North and Midlands. People need to start thinking about the tone and messages that will do that. Not just in election campaigns but on an ongoing basis leading up to them.
    Please do not post intelligent, thought out comments on current affairs on PB. It will upset the other lifeforms.
    Well it makes the rest of us look bad by comparison, of course it upsets!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,928
    Well that cleared everything up then, now what about Ed Davey?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of th

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    ng.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I will not have the right to do any of these things. If I have enough money or the time to do the paper work I may be able to do them, subject to government whim, but that is very different. In losing rights I lose freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.

    I have made use of the right I have had and on frequent occasions. You say you will not miss the rights you are losing and that is absolutely fair enough. I don't know why you can accept others feel differently.

    You've given no examples of when you used the rights and earlier you just said you valued it as a fallback just as you do with habeus corpus here.

    You can't even get your arguments consistent on the same thread.
  • kjh said:

    kjh said:

    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    ‪It ‬

    You

    No, it’s fact. rights we lose over the next few years.

    Non sequitur.

    Those rights are ones I never asked for and never wanted.

    I won it.
    My word, ihe happiest day of her life
    They

    They objectives.
    CR - then?
    It's reciprocal

    If view.
    Good answer. As you can guess I value the rights we have lost over the rights we have gained.
    What do?

    I have never had to rely on my right to habeas corpus. That doesn't mean I am not glad it exists.

    You ECJ here.

    You're welcome.

    The

    Wrong.

    N


    I am right; you are wrong.

    It really is that simple.

    In reath.

    No

    I'veday.

    You're a waste of my time.

    I true.

    It

    I

    You demonstrated.

    Sorry.

    I do understand, that.

    It's very sad that you won't admit you're wrong.

    Others will draw their own conclusions about you over that.

    Yes, I think that people will draw their own conclusions about our exchanges today.

    Good. And not in your favour as you seem to think.

    Maybe you should try not to come on here and goad people in future (and always have the last word) as a form of cathartic release for you.

    Spend more time with those that love you instead.

    Ha, ha - you came on here and started throwing insults around. Have a great afternoon!

  • Reports Euston been closed with someone claiming there has been a stabbing
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499

    I do understand, clearly a whole lot better than you. It has been an integral part of the work I do for the last 28 years.

    Oh.... you experts! :D:D
    Fuck off. He's not an expert; he's wrong.

    Grow up. And stop being a child from the sidelines for once in your life.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 5,495

    @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm irritated by the europhile posse who are still putting out their (entirely synthetic) crocodile tears on here and demonstrating more loyalty to the EU than their own country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    I accept that these rights will be missed by many but we are leaving the EU and those who value these benefits need to campaign to re-join or at the very least try to influence the debate to a BINO

    Continuing the arguments in the referendum is so stale now and a new positive vision close to the EU is more likely to gain support, than constant moaning about the result

    The Rejoin movement is getting going, according to what is coming to my Facebook page. It's not quite got together yet, but it's doing so.
    I doubt the Remain movement will get much traction - its horizons are now irrevocably shrunk. When we were members - not to mention what Dave's Deal would have added - we had the optimal arrangement with the EU, an utterly enviable position forged through decades of supreme British statesmanship. Alas that was all thrown away in a moment of petulance, and we'll never get it back. Oh well.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499
    murali_s said:

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope

    Nope.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    It is undeniably true that we are losing rights with Brexit, including the right to free movement, and the ability to trade without restriction across the EU27.

    It is reasonable for @Casino_Royale to claim that for him the price of those rights were too high, but to deny that we are losing those rights is simply wrong.
    No-one has been able to give me a real life practical example of how losing these rights will affect them.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I will not have the right to do any of these things. If I have enough money or the time to do the paper work I may be able to do them, subject to government whim, but that is very different. In losing rights I lose freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.
    Take a break. You're on the verge of becoming unhinged.

    Of course, anyone with a brain knows that Brexit is a calamity and soon we will all pay the price for this madness.
    The Remain wankathon needs to take a break.

    YOU LOST.

    Stop grieving your crocodile tears and get over it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 8,340
    Gabs3 said:

    It is amazing the effect of social media on us all. It allows everyone to throw insults about with the cloak of distance and anonymity reducing the social cost. That in turn causes people on the other side to want to feel like we are "winning" over those bastards insulting us. And the easiest way to do that is to arrogantly talk to others on our own side in view of the bastards about how much they are losing. That in turn makes the other side hate us and throw more insults. And so goes on the vicious circle.

    Us pro-EU people haven't stopped to think how badly we have lost over the last few years. We lost the referendum, we lost by default the fight for a soft Brexit because we didn't fight it, we lost Theresa May's medium Brexit, and then we lost the election. Smugly pretending we actually won because it's a Pyrrhic victory for the Leavers is both incorrect and motivates the other side so we will keep on losing.

    I despair about how my would-be allies are putting what makes them feel emotionally better over what will actually win political battles. We need a Rejoin majority in parliament. That means keeping Scotland and Northern Ireland in the UK and winning back seats in leafy southern suburbs and working class towns in the North and Midlands. People need to start thinking about the tone and messages that will do that. Not just in election campaigns but on an ongoing basis leading up to them.

    Still doing this! Quite impressive in its way.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 2,308
    edited February 15
    isam said:

    isam said:


    I actually quite like the idea of Freedom of Movement within a bloc of countries, but they have to be of similar economies, and roughly the same amount of people from each country would have to be happy to live in the others. The problem with EU FoM for the UK was that, when Blair allowed the A8 accession, the ratio of ins and outs from and to the new countries was wrong

    When you are driving a Roller, you dont join a car swap club where the others all have Allegros!

    Are we driving a Rolls-Royce? Germany is richer, France is as rich, and relative to many places, Italy and Spain would be a step up too, with better weather to boot. Perhaps our silver lady is the English language, the one every foreigner learns at school.
    Well for the sake of my example, I guess I would say Germany, France, Spain and Italy probably all drive Rolls Royces as well. That's why there wasn't any real desire from your average bloke in the pub to leave the EU when FoM meant freedom to move to those countries and vice versa.

    Now we dont have the freedom to swap our car for theirs anymore, but no one with an Allegro gets their hands on our Roller!

    In terms of income, Germany, France and Northern Italy have had the Rolls Royces. Spain, Portugal, Southern Italy and Greece have had high immigration to the UK ( and in case of Southern Italy and Greece, the US and Australia from earlier on) since the 1950s.

    There are 600,000 Italians in the UK.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 18,098
    The weirdos & misfits thing seems to be going well.

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 2,470
    IshmaelZ said:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHASE

    Basically - 1) if you don't carefully rig the ship to make everything go bang, very little does. 2) The weight of actual explosive is a small proportion of the total weight 3) Water does a great job in dampening underwater explosions.

    All the stuff about tidal waves wiping out the locality around the Montgomery are horse manure.

    Um, from your own link, in CHASE 2 "Village was loaded with 7348 short tons of munitions at the Naval Weapons Station Earle and towed to a deep-water dump site on 17 September 1964. There were three large and unexpected detonations five minutes after Village slipped beneath the surface. An oil slick and some debris appeared on the surface. The explosion registered on seismic equipment all over the world."

    No chance of anything going wrong then. Ever.
    @Malmesbury - thank you for the link.

    I think that for the Boris Bridge, CHASE 3 is of interest. It involved 4,000 tonnes of muntions and was detonated at 1,000 ft depth (the same as the deepest part of Beaufort's Dyke) and produced a 600ft waterspout.

    4,000 tonnes = 600 ft waterspout. Beaufort's Dyke has 1,500,000 tonnes of ordnance or nearly 400 times as much
  • @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm irritated by the europhile posse who are still putting out their (entirely synthetic) crocodile tears on here and demonstrating more loyalty to the EU than their own country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    I accept that these rights will be missed by many but we are leaving the EU and those who value these benefits need to campaign to re-join or at the very least try to influence the debate to a BINO

    Continuing the arguments in the referendum is so stale now and a new positive vision close to the EU is more likely to gain support, than constant moaning about the result

    I accept the result. This entire conversation began because CR objected to the notion that next year UK citizens will be losing rights and freedoms that they currently have. I don't understand why he finds that self-evident truth so hard to admit, but he does.

    Actually I think you started by saying we were facing the biggest loss of rights in our history, a startling statement give such things as DORA, conscription and rationing that happened during the last century.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 6,893

    Reports Euston been closed with someone claiming there has been a stabbing

    Not good. :/
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 26,972

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of the ECHR.

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    I think it is a slightly misleading use of the term “right” though.

    You currently have a benefit - the ability to move from one EU country to another - as a result of a political agreement. Those benefits will be withdrawn when the agreement terminates (unless they are replaced)

    That’s not what most people would think of as fundamental rights (fair trial, free speech, etc) which are intrinsic rights that all humankind should benefit from
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 33,348
    edited February 15

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of th

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    ng.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.

    I differently.

    You've given no examples of when you used the rights and earlier you just said you valued it as a fallback just as you do with habeus corpus here.

    You can't even get your arguments consistent on the same thread.

    I have driven in any number of European countries on my UK licence. I have lived in Spain. I have brought in cars full of food and drink for my personal use. I have organised and run events in Spain, France, Germany and the Netherlands as if I had been doing them in the UK, etc, etc, etc.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,928
    edited February 15
    @Casino_Royale @SouthamObserver maybe time to step away from the keyboard and take a walk in the storm.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 44,109
    .

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of th

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    ng.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.

    I differently.

    You've given no examples of when you used the rights and earlier you just said you valued it as a fallback just as you do with habeus corpus here.

    You can't even get your arguments consistent on the same thread.

    I have driven in any number of European countries on my UK licence. I have lived in Spain. I have brought in cars full of food and drink for my personal use. I have organised and run events in Spain, France, Germany and the Netherlands as if I had been doing them in the UK, etc, etc, etc.

    Will you no longer be able to do those things, or are some of them just a bit more difficult?
  • Charles said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of the ECHR.

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    I think it is a slightly misleading use of the term “right” though.

    You currently have a benefit - the ability to move from one EU country to another - as a result of a political agreement. Those benefits will be withdrawn when the agreement terminates (unless they are replaced)

    That’s not what most people would think of as fundamental rights (fair trial, free speech, etc) which are intrinsic rights that all humankind should benefit from

    Freedoms and rights. All rights are dependent on political agreement, aren't they?

  • RobDRobD Posts: 44,109
    Charles said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of the ECHR.

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    I think it is a slightly misleading use of the term “right” though.

    You currently have a benefit - the ability to move from one EU country to another - as a result of a political agreement. Those benefits will be withdrawn when the agreement terminates (unless they are replaced)

    That’s not what most people would think of as fundamental rights (fair trial, free speech, etc) which are intrinsic rights that all humankind should benefit from
    Precisely, it's a benefit which we paid for.
  • RobD said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of th

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    ng.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.

    I differently.

    You've given no examples of when you used the rights and earlier you just said you valued it as a fallback just as you do with habeus corpus here.

    You can't even get your arguments consistent on the same thread.

    I have driven in any number of European countries on my UK licence. I have lived in Spain. I have brought in cars full of food and drink for my personal use. I have organised and run events in Spain, France, Germany and the Netherlands as if I had been doing them in the UK, etc, etc, etc.

    Will you no longer be able to do those things, or are some of them just a bit more difficult?

    They will no longer be rights.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 57,816
    Jonathan said:

    Who else is inspired by Sir Ed Davey?

    Can't wait for his debate against Starmer
  • IshmaelZ said:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHASE

    Basically - 1) if you don't carefully rig the ship to make everything go bang, very little does. 2) The weight of actual explosive is a small proportion of the total weight 3) Water does a great job in dampening underwater explosions.

    All the stuff about tidal waves wiping out the locality around the Montgomery are horse manure.

    Um, from your own link, in CHASE 2 "Village was loaded with 7348 short tons of munitions at the Naval Weapons Station Earle and towed to a deep-water dump site on 17 September 1964. There were three large and unexpected detonations five minutes after Village slipped beneath the surface. An oil slick and some debris appeared on the surface. The explosion registered on seismic equipment all over the world."

    No chance of anything going wrong then. Ever.
    @Malmesbury - thank you for the link.

    I think that for the Boris Bridge, CHASE 3 is of interest. It involved 4,000 tonnes of muntions and was detonated at 1,000 ft depth (the same as the deepest part of Beaufort's Dyke) and produced a 600ft waterspout.

    4,000 tonnes = 600 ft waterspout. Beaufort's Dyke has 1,500,000 tonnes of ordnance or nearly 400 times as much
    Boris's bridge has been dwarfed this week by a Danish Government scientist calling for the damming of the north sea with dams between Lands End and France and Scotland to Norway at a cost of 500 billion and 100 year construction time

    And I do not jest
  • RobDRobD Posts: 44,109

    RobD said:

    .


    I have driven in any number of European countries on my UK licence. I have lived in Spain. I have brought in cars full of food and drink for my personal use. I have organised and run events in Spain, France, Germany and the Netherlands as if I had been doing them in the UK, etc, etc, etc.

    Will you no longer be able to do those things, or are some of them just a bit more difficult?

    They will no longer be rights.

    But you'll still be able to do them?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499

    @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm irritated by the europhile posse who are still putting out their (entirely synthetic) crocodile tears on here and demonstrating more loyalty to the EU than their own country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    I accept that these rights will be missed by many but we are leaving the EU and those who value these benefits need to campaign to re-join or at the very least try to influence the debate to a BINO

    Continuing the arguments in the referendum is so stale now and a new positive vision close to the EU is more likely to gain support, than constant moaning about the result

    I accept the result. This entire conversation began because CR objected to the notion that next year UK citizens will be losing rights and freedoms that they currently have. I don't understand why he finds that self-evident truth so hard to admit, but he does.

    Actually I think you started by saying we were facing the biggest loss of rights in our history, a startling statement give such things as DORA, conscription and rationing that happened during the last century.
    Thank you.

    I'm actually very fond of SO personally. But he does provoke. And he does so deliberately.

    Admittedly I shouldn't react but he does it so often I eventually get tired of it and the string snaps.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 2,470

    I do understand, clearly a whole lot better than you. It has been an integral part of the work I do for the last 28 years.

    Oh.... you experts! :D:D
    Fuck off. He's not an expert; he's wrong.

    Grow up. And stop being a child from the sidelines for once in your life.
    After the temper tantrum you have thrown in here today - you call me childish?

    Grow up yourself.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of the ECHR.

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    I think it is a slightly misleading use of the term “right” though.

    You currently have a benefit - the ability to move from one EU country to another - as a result of a political agreement. Those benefits will be withdrawn when the agreement terminates (unless they are replaced)

    That’s not what most people would think of as fundamental rights (fair trial, free speech, etc) which are intrinsic rights that all humankind should benefit from
    Precisely, it's a benefit which we paid for.
    Exactly.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 34,499
    edited February 15
    Jonathan said:

    @Casino_Royale @SouthamObserver maybe time to step away from the keyboard and take a walk in the storm.

    Agreed. Probably doesn't help that I've had a few glasses.

    I'm turning my phone off.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 26,972

    IshmaelZ said:

    The more I read about Beaufort's Dyke the more I think what a total shitshow. I hadn't realised that they were still dumping stuff in the 70s.

    'British ships sailed out from Cairnryan in western Scotland to dump weapons in Beaufort’s Dyke from the 1920s to the 1970s, including Allied and German munitions after the second world war. Sometimes the vessels did not reach the dyke, the bombs dumped overboard into shallower waters instead. Detailed records were often destroyed at the time. In 1997 it was acknowledged that radioactive waste had also been dumped in steel drums there in the 1950s after what the then Scotland secretary, Donald Dewar, said was “a discovery of old papers in the Public Records Office”.'

    https://tinyurl.com/qmnqz7k

    IIRC, the Boris Island airport was either on or very close to another wartime ammunition disaster. Some supply ship with so much ammo aboard that they still worry about nearby towns if it ever goes off...

    Perhaps Boris has a new technique for used ammo clean up?

    Boom boom! (As Basil Brush would say)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery
    It contains the following items of ordnance:

    286 × 2,000 lb (910 kg) high explosive bombs
    4,439 × 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs of various types
    1,925 × 500 lb (230 kg) bombs
    2,815 fragmentation bombs and bomb clusters
    Various explosive booster charges
    Various smoke bombs, including white phosphorus bombs
    Various pyrotechnic signals

    Crikey....
    The exaggerations about the Richard Montgomery are legion. For some reason the doom sayers fail to mention that bombs and shells are transported without primers and fuses in place. Getting high explosives to do anything without either is pretty difficult.
    Watch the 3-minute video linked to below (which does agree that doing nothing is probably best). One risk is that the unprimed bombs at the bottom might be set off by the fused cluster bombs if they fall through from the deck above.
    I worked with some experts on explosives when I was in the oil business - some had done some rather interesting projects. Their comments on the whole thing was to look at CHASE 2 and 3
    CHASE 2 & 3? Any chance of a precis?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHASE
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 17,790

    Totally O/t and because it might start a football discussion the BBC is reporting that The Oxford English Dictionary has changed its definition of the word Yid to include a "supporter of or player for Tottenham Hotspur".

    Yeah, I heard that the radio, a bit of a mind bender. I think the justification was that (some) Spurs supporters refer to themselves that way. Opens a can of worms regarding a whole lot of racist epithets I'd have thought.
    Yes, thought that too. You could probably find similar questionable situations in Scotland!
  • isamisam Posts: 30,600
    edited February 15

    @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm irritated by the europhile posse who are still putting out their (entirely synthetic) crocodile tears on here and demonstrating more loyalty to the EU than their own country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    I accept that these rights will be missed by many but we are leaving the EU and those who value these benefits need to campaign to re-join or at the very least try to influence the debate to a BINO

    Continuing the arguments in the referendum is so stale now and a new positive vision close to the EU is more likely to gain support, than constant moaning about the result

    I accept the result. This entire conversation began because CR objected to the notion that next year UK citizens will be losing rights and freedoms that they currently have. I don't understand why he finds that self-evident truth so hard to admit, but he does.

    Actually I think you started by saying we were facing the biggest loss of rights in our history, a startling statement give such things as DORA, conscription and rationing that happened during the last century.
    Not to mention that a majority of voters voted to lose those rights (although most probably didn't see them as 'rights' but 'disadvantages')

    When you start a family, you lose the freedom to go out on the piss as often as you used to, but seeing as it is an outcome that people desired when they decided to start a family, the loss is outweighed by the new addition. It seems quite bizarre and futile to bang on about people losing 'freedoms' and 'rights' when they didn't want them, and feel they have gained something better by losing them
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 2,470
    Charles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    The more I read about Beaufort's Dyke the more I think what a total shitshow. I hadn't realised that they were still dumping stuff in the 70s.

    'British ships sailed out from Cairnryan in western Scotland to dump weapons in Beaufort’s Dyke from the 1920s to the 1970s, including Allied and German munitions after the second world war. Sometimes the vessels did not reach the dyke, the bombs dumped overboard into shallower waters instead. Detailed records were often destroyed at the time. In 1997 it was acknowledged that radioactive waste had also been dumped in steel drums there in the 1950s after what the then Scotland secretary, Donald Dewar, said was “a discovery of old papers in the Public Records Office”.'

    https://tinyurl.com/qmnqz7k

    IIRC, the Boris Island airport was either on or very close to another wartime ammunition disaster. Some supply ship with so much ammo aboard that they still worry about nearby towns if it ever goes off...

    Perhaps Boris has a new technique for used ammo clean up?

    Boom boom! (As Basil Brush would say)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery
    It contains the following items of ordnance:

    286 × 2,000 lb (910 kg) high explosive bombs
    4,439 × 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs of various types
    1,925 × 500 lb (230 kg) bombs
    2,815 fragmentation bombs and bomb clusters
    Various explosive booster charges
    Various smoke bombs, including white phosphorus bombs
    Various pyrotechnic signals

    Crikey....
    The exaggerations about the Richard Montgomery are legion. For some reason the doom sayers fail to mention that bombs and shells are transported without primers and fuses in place. Getting high explosives to do anything without either is pretty difficult.
    Watch the 3-minute video linked to below (which does agree that doing nothing is probably best). One risk is that the unprimed bombs at the bottom might be set off by the fused cluster bombs if they fall through from the deck above.
    I worked with some experts on explosives when I was in the oil business - some had done some rather interesting projects. Their comments on the whole thing was to look at CHASE 2 and 3
    CHASE 2 & 3? Any chance of a precis?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHASE
    Thanks @Charles - Malmesbury already posted a link.

    It is amazing what we dump into the sea.... out of sight, out of mind.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 8,340

    Off topic, I got a great fanboy-esque photo with Keir Starmer last night. Even shook hands with the great man.

    Well done. I hope to meet him one day. Just not even slightly dull.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 26,972
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    It seems to me, and has seemed so since the 1960’s, that the economies of scale are driving businesses to become larger, and it therefore being more and more difficult for any individual country of 60m or so to be able to ‘manage’ them, legally.
    Hence some sort of supranational organisation is necessary, and the UK has just announced, in effect, that it doesn’t need any help from anyone, and is perfectly capable of dealing with the Amazons and Googles of this world on its own.

    I believe this is hopelessly wrong. I have supported EU membership all my adult life, including campaigning in the 1975 and 2016 referendums.

    I just hope to live long enough to see the return to the EU, but at 81 am not very optimistic.

    Too wee and too stupid? :)
    First yes, second no.
    How could the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world possibly manage?
    Is that bigger or smaller than Amazon?
    Bigger.
    What evidence are you basin this claim on?

    Sorry, not sorry.
    In 2018 Amazon had net profit of $10bn. The U.K. economy is bigger than that
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 18,098

    Totally O/t and because it might start a football discussion the BBC is reporting that The Oxford English Dictionary has changed its definition of the word Yid to include a "supporter of or player for Tottenham Hotspur".

    Yeah, I heard that the radio, a bit of a mind bender. I think the justification was that (some) Spurs supporters refer to themselves that way. Opens a can of worms regarding a whole lot of racist epithets I'd have thought.
    Yes, thought that too. You could probably find similar questionable situations in Scotland!
    Certainly, though it seems to centre on only 2 teams. We Dons supporters aren't too fussed about being called sheepshaggers :)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 8,340
    Jonathan said:

    Well that cleared everything up then, now what about Ed Davey?

    Bit dull but there's worse things to be.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 44,109
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    It seems to me, and has seemed so since the 1960’s, that the economies of scale are driving businesses to become larger, and it therefore being more and more difficult for any individual country of 60m or so to be able to ‘manage’ them, legally.
    Hence some sort of supranational organisation is necessary, and the UK has just announced, in effect, that it doesn’t need any help from anyone, and is perfectly capable of dealing with the Amazons and Googles of this world on its own.

    I believe this is hopelessly wrong. I have supported EU membership all my adult life, including campaigning in the 1975 and 2016 referendums.

    I just hope to live long enough to see the return to the EU, but at 81 am not very optimistic.

    Too wee and too stupid? :)
    First yes, second no.
    How could the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world possibly manage?
    Is that bigger or smaller than Amazon?
    Bigger.
    What evidence are you basin this claim on?

    Sorry, not sorry.
    In 2018 Amazon had net profit of $10bn. The U.K. economy is bigger than that
    So about 1/200th of the size. ;)
  • RobD said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, of th

    Nope. rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, them.

    ng.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.

    I differently.

    You've given no examples of when you used the rights and earlier you just said you valued it as a fallback just as you do with habeus corpus here.

    You can't even get your arguments consistent on the same thread.

    I have driven in any number of European countries on my UK licence. I have lived in Spain. I have brought in cars full of food and drink for my personal use. I have organised and run events in Spain, France, Germany and the Netherlands as if I had been doing them in the UK, etc, etc, etc.

    Will you no longer be able to do those things, or are some of them just a bit more difficult?

    Hopefully, I am well off and so will not have to worry about income thresholds if I want to live in an EU member state and while the increased red tape is a pain it is all doable. Duty free may become an issue, we'll see. However, I am concerned about the events side of things given the UK government does not want to do a deal around services.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 26,972
    nico67 said:

    Brexit by itself as in pulling out of the political institutions and changing the trade terms is of course a big deal . But it’s how Brexit now resembles a Trojan horse by some in the Tory party to force their world view onto the country .

    Sadly the public will be fed a diet of right wing headlines trashing the ECHR as being easy on terrorists , then anyone criticizing the government for its likely attempt to pull out of that will be branded as soft on terrorists and not patriotic !

    There will of course be no headlines as to how the ECHR helped couples who didn’t want to be separated if they went into care or the other rulings which reduced discrimination.

    Rights are there to protect everyone , but that does mean they sometimes help people who most would class as not deserving of that .

    But in the grand scheme of things the good outweighs the negative .

    Brexiters seem to view things as either black or white . And fail to think about the longer term implications when another government who they might be suspicious of is in power .

    This was highlighted by the prorogation case which again was used by the right wing press as another attempt to misinform , once again we saw the garbage written that the SC was trying to overturn Brexit, this was then parroted by some Leavers .

    Completely ignoring the fact that this was simply a case about how much power should be in the hands of the PM and the executive .

    The issue is that the ECHR was a political court with judges that would not be qualified under our system.

    In my view the items you note above should be determined by Parliament
  • RobDRobD Posts: 44,109

    RobD said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, of th

    Nope. rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, them.

    ng.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.

    I differently.

    You've given no examples of when you used the rights and earlier you just said you valued it as a fallback just as you do with habeus corpus here.

    You can't even get your arguments consistent on the same thread.

    I have driven in any number of European countries on my UK licence. I have lived in Spain. I have brought in cars full of food and drink for my personal use. I have organised and run events in Spain, France, Germany and the Netherlands as if I had been doing them in the UK, etc, etc, etc.

    Will you no longer be able to do those things, or are some of them just a bit more difficult?

    Hopefully, I am well off and so will not have to worry about income thresholds if I want to live in an EU member state and while the increased red tape is a pain it is all doable. Duty free may become an issue, we'll see. However, I am concerned about the events side of things given the UK government does not want to do a deal around services.

    On duty free specifically, won't that make a return? You can't buy duty free while traveling between EU countries.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 2,343

    IshmaelZ said:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHASE

    Basically - 1) if you don't carefully rig the ship to make everything go bang, very little does. 2) The weight of actual explosive is a small proportion of the total weight 3) Water does a great job in dampening underwater explosions.

    All the stuff about tidal waves wiping out the locality around the Montgomery are horse manure.

    Um, from your own link, in CHASE 2 "Village was loaded with 7348 short tons of munitions at the Naval Weapons Station Earle and towed to a deep-water dump site on 17 September 1964. There were three large and unexpected detonations five minutes after Village slipped beneath the surface. An oil slick and some debris appeared on the surface. The explosion registered on seismic equipment all over the world."

    No chance of anything going wrong then. Ever.
    @Malmesbury - thank you for the link.

    I think that for the Boris Bridge, CHASE 3 is of interest. It involved 4,000 tonnes of muntions and was detonated at 1,000 ft depth (the same as the deepest part of Beaufort's Dyke) and produced a 600ft waterspout.

    4,000 tonnes = 600 ft waterspout. Beaufort's Dyke has 1,500,000 tonnes of ordnance or nearly 400 times as much
    600 foot waterspout means the height the spray reaches. Explosions do not have linear effects. If the Montgomery ever does go bang, there will be a jet of spray into the air, and alot of dead fish. Incidentally the spray thing is one of the reasons that water is so good at damping the effects of explosions from the point of view of those not in the water - the energy is spent in turning water into fine droplets and steam.

    The reason why the Montgomery hasn't been touched to this point is that, until quite recently, it would have required human EOD work. Underwater explosions - even very small ones - are utterly lethal.

    The material in Beaufort's Dyke is scattered around - over many miles. You could get even a fraction of a percent to explode at any one time, unless you carefully wired it together.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 17,790
    Charles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    The more I read about Beaufort's Dyke the more I think what a total shitshow. I hadn't realised that they were still dumping stuff in the 70s.

    'British ships sailed out from Cairnryan in western Scotland to dump weapons in Beaufort’s Dyke from the 1920s to the 1970s, including Allied and German munitions after the second world war. Sometimes the vessels did not reach the dyke, the bombs dumped overboard into shallower waters instead. Detailed records were often destroyed at the time. In 1997 it was acknowledged that radioactive waste had also been dumped in steel drums there in the 1950s after what the then Scotland secretary, Donald Dewar, said was “a discovery of old papers in the Public Records Office”.'

    https://tinyurl.com/qmnqz7k

    IIRC, the Boris Island airport was either on or very close to another wartime ammunition disaster. Some supply ship with so much ammo aboard that they still worry about nearby towns if it ever goes off...

    Perhaps Boris has a new technique for used ammo clean up?

    Boom boom! (As Basil Brush would say)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery
    It contains the following items of ordnance:

    286 × 2,000 lb (910 kg) high explosive bombs
    4,439 × 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs of various types
    1,925 × 500 lb (230 kg) bombs
    2,815 fragmentation bombs and bomb clusters
    Various explosive booster charges
    Various smoke bombs, including white phosphorus bombs
    Various pyrotechnic signals

    Crikey....
    .
    Watch the 3-minute video linked to below (which does agree that doing nothing is probably best). One risk is that the unprimed bombs at the bottom might be set off by the fused cluster bombs if they fall through from the deck above.
    I worked with some experts on explosives when I was in the oil business - some had done some rather interesting projects. Their comments on the whole thing was to look at CHASE 2 and 3
    CHASE 2 & 3? Any chance of a precis?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHASE
    My late father spent the last 7-8 months of his service life (1940-6) supervising the throwing of German mentions found in Denmark into the sea. Think it was the North Sea but might have been the Skaggerak. IIRC he was stationed in Aalborg.
  • isam said:

    @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    Want to change my mind? Start talking about Britain and British interests rather than constantly whinging about abstract EU "rights" you've never actually used as if that's all you actually care about.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    I BINO

    Continuing the arguments in the referendum is so stale now and a new positive vision close to the EU is more likely to gain support, than constant moaning about the result

    I accept the result. This entire conversation began because CR objected to the notion that next year UK citizens will be losing rights and freedoms that they currently have. I don't understand why he finds that self-evident truth so hard to admit, but he does.

    Actually I think you started by saying we were facing the biggest loss of rights in our history, a startling statement give such things as DORA, conscription and rationing that happened during the last century.
    Not to mention that a majority of voters voted to lose those rights (although most probably didn't see them as 'rights' but 'disadvantages')

    When you start a family, you lose the freedom to go out on the piss as often as you used to, but seeing as it is an outcome that people desired when they decided to start a family, the loss is outweighed by the new addition. It seems quite bizarre and futile to bang on about people losing 'freedoms' and 'rights' when they didn't want them, and feel they have gained something better by losing them

    17.4 million people did not want those freedoms and rights, millions of others did and many more did not get a choice. But they are going and that is that. It seems a bit silly, though, to say that they are not going when they are.

  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, of th

    Nope. rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, them.

    ng.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.

    I differently.

    You've given no examples of when you used the rights and earlier you just said you valued it as a fallback just as you do with habeus corpus here.

    You can't even get your arguments consistent on the same thread.

    I have driven in any number of European countries on my UK licence. I have lived in Spain. I have brought in cars full of food and drink for my personal use. I have organised and run events in Spain, France, Germany and the Netherlands as if I had been doing them in the UK, etc, etc, etc.

    Will you no longer be able to do those things, or are some of them just a bit more difficult?

    Hopefully, I am well off and so will not have to worry about income thresholds if I want to live in an EU member state and while the increased red tape is a pain it is all doable. Duty free may become an issue, we'll see. However, I am concerned about the events side of things given the UK government does not want to do a deal around services.

    On duty free specifically, won't that make a return? You can't buy duty free while traveling between EU countries.

    Yep, it will be a return. And, presumably, the restrictions on how much you can bring in will also return. We'll see.

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 2,470

    IshmaelZ said:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHASE

    Basically - 1) if you don't carefully rig the ship to make everything go bang, very little does. 2) The weight of actual explosive is a small proportion of the total weight 3) Water does a great job in dampening underwater explosions.

    All the stuff about tidal waves wiping out the locality around the Montgomery are horse manure.

    Um, from your own link, in CHASE 2 "Village was loaded with 7348 short tons of munitions at the Naval Weapons Station Earle and towed to a deep-water dump site on 17 September 1964. There were three large and unexpected detonations five minutes after Village slipped beneath the surface. An oil slick and some debris appeared on the surface. The explosion registered on seismic equipment all over the world."

    No chance of anything going wrong then. Ever.
    @Malmesbury - thank you for the link.

    I think that for the Boris Bridge, CHASE 3 is of interest. It involved 4,000 tonnes of muntions and was detonated at 1,000 ft depth (the same as the deepest part of Beaufort's Dyke) and produced a 600ft waterspout.

    4,000 tonnes = 600 ft waterspout. Beaufort's Dyke has 1,500,000 tonnes of ordnance or nearly 400 times as much
    Boris's bridge has been dwarfed this week by a Danish Government scientist calling for the damming of the north sea with dams between Lands End and France and Scotland to Norway at a cost of 500 billion and 100 year construction time

    And I do not jest
    I know you do not jest. I have read the article. Oddly enough, it makes no mention of the fact that they propose to enclose the busiest shipping route in the world.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 17,790

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, of th

    Nope. rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, them.

    ng.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.

    I differently.

    I have driven in any number of European countries on my UK licence. I have lived in Spain. I have brought in cars full of food and drink for my personal use. I have organised and run events in Spain, France, Germany and the Netherlands as if I had been doing them in the UK, etc, etc, etc.

    Hopefully, I am well off and so will not have to worry about income thresholds if I want to live in an EU member state and while the increased red tape is a pain it is all doable. Duty free may become an issue, we'll see. However, I am concerned about the events side of things given the UK government does not want to do a deal around services.

    On duty free specifically, won't that make a return? You can't buy duty free while traveling between EU countries.

    Yep, it will be a return. And, presumably, the restrictions on how much you can bring in will also return. We'll see.

    It's one of the hassles in going to and from the Channel Islands.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 5,000
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, of th

    Nope. rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, them.

    ng.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.

    I differently.

    You've given no examples of when you used the rights and earlier you just said you valued it as a fallback just as you do with habeus corpus here.

    You can't even get your arguments consistent on the same thread.

    I have driven in any number of European countries on my UK licence. I have lived in Spain. I have brought in cars full of food and drink for my personal use. I have organised and run events in Spain, France, Germany and the Netherlands as if I had been doing them in the UK, etc, etc, etc.

    Will you no longer be able to do those things, or are some of them just a bit more difficult?

    Hopefully, I am well off and so will not have to worry about income thresholds if I want to live in an EU member state and while the increased red tape is a pain it is all doable. Duty free may become an issue, we'll see. However, I am concerned about the events side of things given the UK government does not want to do a deal around services.

    On duty free specifically, won't that make a return? You can't buy duty free while traveling between EU countries.
    Duty free a false benefit compared to duty paid when the latter is half the price of the UK
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 2,343
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    It seems to me, and has seemed so since the 1960’s, that the economies of scale are driving businesses to become larger, and it therefore being more and more difficult for any individual country of 60m or so to be able to ‘manage’ them, legally.
    Hence some sort of supranational organisation is necessary, and the UK has just announced, in effect, that it doesn’t need any help from anyone, and is perfectly capable of dealing with the Amazons and Googles of this world on its own.

    I believe this is hopelessly wrong. I have supported EU membership all my adult life, including campaigning in the 1975 and 2016 referendums.

    I just hope to live long enough to see the return to the EU, but at 81 am not very optimistic.

    Too wee and too stupid? :)
    First yes, second no.
    How could the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world possibly manage?
    Is that bigger or smaller than Amazon?
    Bigger.
    What evidence are you basin this claim on?

    Sorry, not sorry.
    In 2018 Amazon had net profit of $10bn. The U.K. economy is bigger than that
    So about 1/200th of the size. ;)
    UK GDP - 2.6 trillion USD
    Amazon Gross Revenue Worldwide - 230 billion USD
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 17,790

    IshmaelZ said:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHASE

    Basically - 1) if you don't carefully rig the ship to make everything go bang, very little does. 2) The weight of actual explosive is a small proportion of the total weight 3) Water does a great job in dampening underwater explosions.

    All the stuff about tidal waves wiping out the locality around the Montgomery are horse manure.

    Um, from your own link, in CHASE 2 "Village was loaded with 7348 short tons of munitions at the Naval Weapons Station Earle and towed to a deep-water dump site on 17 September 1964. There were three large and unexpected detonations five minutes after Village slipped beneath the surface. An oil slick and some debris appeared on the surface. The explosion registered on seismic equipment all over the world."

    No chance of anything going wrong then. Ever.
    @Malmesbury - thank you for the link.

    I think that for the Boris Bridge, CHASE 3 is of interest. It involved 4,000 tonnes of muntions and was detonated at 1,000 ft depth (the same as the deepest part of Beaufort's Dyke) and produced a 600ft waterspout.

    4,000 tonnes = 600 ft waterspout. Beaufort's Dyke has 1,500,000 tonnes of ordnance or nearly 400 times as much
    Boris's bridge has been dwarfed this week by a Danish Government scientist calling for the damming of the north sea with dams between Lands End and France and Scotland to Norway at a cost of 500 billion and 100 year construction time

    And I do not jest
    I know you do not jest. I have read the article. Oddly enough, it makes no mention of the fact that they propose to enclose the busiest shipping route in the world.
    Tidal flow electrical generation?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 44,109

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, of th

    Nope. rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, them.

    ng.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.

    I differently.

    I have driven in any number of European countries on my UK licence. I have lived in Spain. I have brought in cars full of food and drink for my personal use. I have organised and run events in Spain, France, Germany and the Netherlands as if I had been doing them in the UK, etc, etc, etc.

    Hopefully, I am well off and so will not have to worry about income thresholds if I want to live in an EU member state and while the increased red tape is a pain it is all doable. Duty free may become an issue, we'll see. However, I am concerned about the events side of things given the UK government does not want to do a deal around services.

    On duty free specifically, won't that make a return? You can't buy duty free while traveling between EU countries.

    Yep, it will be a return. And, presumably, the restrictions on how much you can bring in will also return. We'll see.

    It's one of the hassles in going to and from the Channel Islands.
    Being able to buy cheap booze and fags is a hassle? ;)
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 2,470

    IshmaelZ said:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHASE

    Basically - 1) if you don't carefully rig the ship to make everything go bang, very little does. 2) The weight of actual explosive is a small proportion of the total weight 3) Water does a great job in dampening underwater explosions.

    All the stuff about tidal waves wiping out the locality around the Montgomery are horse manure.

    Um, from your own link, in CHASE 2 "Village was loaded with 7348 short tons of munitions at the Naval Weapons Station Earle and towed to a deep-water dump site on 17 September 1964. There were three large and unexpected detonations five minutes after Village slipped beneath the surface. An oil slick and some debris appeared on the surface. The explosion registered on seismic equipment all over the world."

    No chance of anything going wrong then. Ever.
    @Malmesbury - thank you for the link.

    I think that for the Boris Bridge, CHASE 3 is of interest. It involved 4,000 tonnes of muntions and was detonated at 1,000 ft depth (the same as the deepest part of Beaufort's Dyke) and produced a 600ft waterspout.

    4,000 tonnes = 600 ft waterspout. Beaufort's Dyke has 1,500,000 tonnes of ordnance or nearly 400 times as much
    600 foot waterspout means the height the spray reaches. Explosions do not have linear effects. If the Montgomery ever does go bang, there will be a jet of spray into the air, and alot of dead fish. Incidentally the spray thing is one of the reasons that water is so good at damping the effects of explosions from the point of view of those not in the water - the energy is spent in turning water into fine droplets and steam.

    The reason why the Montgomery hasn't been touched to this point is that, until quite recently, it would have required human EOD work. Underwater explosions - even very small ones - are utterly lethal.

    The material in Beaufort's Dyke is scattered around - over many miles. You could get even a fraction of a percent to explode at any one time, unless you carefully wired it together.
    Nonetheless, it clearly is not as safe as putting a bridge in shallow "clean" seabed.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 26,760

    The weirdos & misfits thing seems to be going well.

    Tories found their Mengele, the team is building.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 44,109

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    It seems to me, and has seemed so since the 1960’s, that the economies of scale are driving businesses to become larger, and it therefore being more and more difficult for any individual country of 60m or so to be able to ‘manage’ them, legally.
    Hence some sort of supranational organisation is necessary, and the UK has just announced, in effect, that it doesn’t need any help from anyone, and is perfectly capable of dealing with the Amazons and Googles of this world on its own.

    I believe this is hopelessly wrong. I have supported EU membership all my adult life, including campaigning in the 1975 and 2016 referendums.

    I just hope to live long enough to see the return to the EU, but at 81 am not very optimistic.

    Too wee and too stupid? :)
    First yes, second no.
    How could the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world possibly manage?
    Is that bigger or smaller than Amazon?
    Bigger.
    What evidence are you basin this claim on?

    Sorry, not sorry.
    In 2018 Amazon had net profit of $10bn. The U.K. economy is bigger than that
    So about 1/200th of the size. ;)
    UK GDP - 2.6 trillion USD
    Amazon Gross Revenue Worldwide - 230 billion USD
    So as I said, the UK is bigger. I'm not sure why this is surprising to anyone.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 17,790
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, of th

    Nope. rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, them.

    ng.

    The anger is entirely synthetic.

    I now.

    Then other examples.

    None may be important to you, but they all represent a loss of freedoms that we currently enjoy.
    E

    I freedoms.

    That an esoteric argument. You fill it out you get it.

    Any distinction is entirely emotive and blown up in the abstract to aid your own confirmation bias of your contrived loss. For something you weren't using anyway.

    I differently.


    Hopefully, I am well off and so will not have to worry about income thresholds if I want to live in an EU member state and while the increased red tape is a pain it is all doable. Duty free may become an issue, we'll see. However, I am concerned about the events side of things given the UK government does not want to do a deal around services.

    On duty free specifically, won't that make a return? You can't buy duty free while traveling between EU countries.

    Yep, it will be a return. And, presumably, the restrictions on how much you can bring in will also return. We'll see.

    It's one of the hassles in going to and from the Channel Islands.
    Being able to buy cheap booze and fags is a hassle? ;)
    Not bothered about the fags, but you can only bring so much booze back. One the other hand, my friend with a white van used to do very well bringing back booze. All going now of course.
  • isam said:

    @Casino_Royale is still obsessed with the EU. The Pope is Catholic. What else is new?

    I'm not obsessed by the EU.

    I'm country.

    You do not own this country or get to define what loyalty to it consists of.

    Another stupid and unnecessary post.

    No, of course I don't own the country. But I do recognise split and conflicted loyalties when i see it and I absolutely get to call it out.

    I believe it is in British interests for British citizens to enjoy the rights that EU membership conferred on them. I think it made us a better country.

    I BINO

    Continuing the arguments in the referendum is so stale now and a new positive vision close to the EU is more likely to gain support, than constant moaning about the result

    I accept the result. This entire conversation began because CR objected to the notion that next year UK citizens will be losing rights and freedoms that they currently have. I don't understand why he finds that self-evident truth so hard to admit, but he does.

    Actually I think you started by saying we were facing the biggest loss of rights in our history, a startling statement give such things as DORA, conscription and rationing that happened during the last century.
    Not to mention that a majority of voters voted to lose those rights (although most probably didn't see them as 'rights' but 'disadvantages')

    When you start a family, you lose the freedom to go out on the piss as often as you used to, but seeing as it is an outcome that people desired when they decided to start a family, the loss is outweighed by the new addition. It seems quite bizarre and futile to bang on about people losing 'freedoms' and 'rights' when they didn't want them, and feel they have gained something better by losing them

    17.4 million people did not want those freedoms and rights, millions of others did and many more did not get a choice. But they are going and that is that. It seems a bit silly, though, to say that they are not going when they are.

    They are under threat but we cannot be certain of the actual loss until the end of the year and of course on going negotiations could see relaxation in these areas

    However, I do accept and understand your sense of loss but never say never
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 3,510
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    It seems to me, and has seemed so since the 1960’s, that the economies of scale are driving businesses to become larger, and it therefore being more and more difficult for any individual country of 60m or so to be able to ‘manage’ them, legally.
    Hence some sort of supranational organisation is necessary, and the UK has just announced, in effect, that it doesn’t need any help from anyone, and is perfectly capable of dealing with the Amazons and Googles of this world on its own.

    I believe this is hopelessly wrong. I have supported EU membership all my adult life, including campaigning in the 1975 and 2016 referendums.

    I just hope to live long enough to see the return to the EU, but at 81 am not very optimistic.

    Too wee and too stupid? :)
    First yes, second no.
    How could the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world possibly manage?
    Is that bigger or smaller than Amazon?
    Bigger.
    What evidence are you basin this claim on?

    Sorry, not sorry.
    In 2018 Amazon had net profit of $10bn. The U.K. economy is bigger than that
    So about 1/200th of the size. ;)
    Not comparing like with like. Add in the payments to Amazon's employees and rent on warehouses and you have something you can compare with GDP.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 17,790
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    It seems to me, and has seemed so since the 1960’s, that the economies of scale are driving businesses to become larger, and it therefore being more and more difficult for any individual country of 60m or so to be able to ‘manage’ them, legally.
    Hence some sort of supranational organisation is necessary, and the UK has just announced, in effect, that it doesn’t need any help from anyone, and is perfectly capable of dealing with the Amazons and Googles of this world on its own.

    I believe this is hopelessly wrong. I have supported EU membership all my adult life, including campaigning in the 1975 and 2016 referendums.

    I just hope to live long enough to see the return to the EU, but at 81 am not very optimistic.

    Too wee and too stupid? :)
    First yes, second no.
    How could the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world possibly manage?
    Is that bigger or smaller than Amazon?
    Bigger.
    What evidence are you basin this claim on?

    Sorry, not sorry.
    In 2018 Amazon had net profit of $10bn. The U.K. economy is bigger than that
    So about 1/200th of the size. ;)
    UK GDP - 2.6 trillion USD
    Amazon Gross Revenue Worldwide - 230 billion USD
    So as I said, the UK is bigger. I'm not sure why this is surprising to anyone.
    Obliged for the figures. Take the Amazon one includes those from it's UK operation.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 25,283

    OllyT said:

    RobD said:

    ‪It is a matter of fact that the Cummings/Johnson government will preside over the biggest loss of individual freedoms for British citizens there has ever been. The only issue is the extent. ‬

    Rubbish.

    Nope, this time next year both you and I will have fewer rights and freedoms than we have now. You won't care, I will. But we will still both be affected. Beyond that, we will have to see what happens to our individual liberties once the right to judicial review has been reined in and if the UK has pulled out of the ECHR.

    Nope. Next year you will have fewer obligations and justiciable rulings on your rights as a British citizen in this country by foreign courts that don't share our legal principles or values. I consider that greater protection and sovereignty. You will also be granted these rights.

    You're welcome.

    Yes, as I say: you are fine with losing the freedoms and rights that we are going to lose. That does not mean you will not be losing them.

    Are we confusing rights with benefits here?

    I'm not!

    You certainly are.
    You have a habit of getting abusive when things don't go your way. Pity as you are usually worth reading
    I get abusive at tedious time wasters.
    Take care, self abuse can become addictive.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,910
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .


    I have driven in any number of European countries on my UK licence. I have lived in Spain. I have brought in cars full of food and drink for my personal use. I have organised and run events in Spain, France, Germany and the Netherlands as if I had been doing them in the UK, etc, etc, etc.

    Will you no longer be able to do those things, or are some of them just a bit more difficult?

    They will no longer be rights.

    But you'll still be able to do them?
    Possibly, possibly not.

    That's the thing about rights: you can do them without permission. I went into the difference between rights and options a few weeks back. Prior to EU departure we had rights: we could do things without asking permission[1]. Now we have options: we can do the same things with permission. This imposes costs - bureaucracy and delay - and raises the possibility that permission is denied. Such denial has already happened in one famous case - Nigel Lawson's application to live in France - and will no doubt continue to less celebrated people.

    I observed some time ago that people had a genuine difficulty between distinguishing between the two. Leaverism appeared to be concentrated amongst those who did not want such rights or did not intend to use them, and amongst those who were sufficiently wealthy to not be disadvantaged of the change[2]. For such people the need to understand the difference is less and frequently do not. For those who did want them or hoped to use them, the difference is now excruciatingly apparent.

    I think this difference underpins @Casino_Royale 's and @SouthamObserver 's contretemps a few minutes ago.

    [1] Or more precisely, without asking more permission than the locals, and not being denied on grounds of nationality.
    [2] A rather sad fact is that if you have sufficient money you can live almost anywhere... :(
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 33,026
    murali_s said:

    anyone with a brain knows that Brexit is a calamity

    Way to go, murali_s, winning people round who voted Leave with the persuasive power of your argument......
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 26,760

    Reports Euston been closed with someone claiming there has been a stabbing

    Not good. :/
    It seems to be an every day occurence in London
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981

    The weirdos & misfits thing seems to be going well.

    I have a prediction.

    Instead of Boris being overthrown in a couple of months or by 2023 like David Herdson predicts (which I laughed in the ludicrousy of it), I say it will be Cummings who will be out by 2023.
    The excuse is there: "Poor choice of henchmen".
This discussion has been closed.