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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited February 2020
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    I suspect there isn't a huge groundswell of opinion in NI for a united Ireland, but when the status quo is apparently not an option, you have to choose one of the alternatives. The alternatives don't look attractive from a NI perspective, hence the absolute rejection across the board for Johnson's shabby protocol deal.

    So what will happen?

    1. The UK actually implements the sea border it agreed with the EU. As the land border will be open and the sea border imposes major costs on what passes for a NI economy, the orientation of that economy will probably switch to the south from the east. Add in the facts that most NI people have Irish/EU passports and EU legislation will have greater immediate impact on them than UK equivalents, we are likely to see NI move into an Irish sphere whether or not it formally separates from the UK.

    2. The UK doesn't implement the sea border it agreed with the EU. The hard border switches to the land border. Most thinking people realise this would be a disaster and there are likely IMO to be very urgent calls to get NI formally into the Republic.

    Either way, we are likely to greater integration of NI into Ireland, revealing unionists' massive strategic error in undermining the status quo that was their best friend.
    The Irish border will remain exactly as it was before Brexit as per the GFA
    Will the UK government impose two way checks on goods as they have agreed in the protocol so goods entering into NI can freely flow in and out of the Republic? This will impose very significant costs on NI businesses that trade with the rUK, to the extent of bankrupting quite a few of them on their current business model. In that case will business look to EU trade, which is frictionless and freeflow? Given all that do you accept my option 1 of a NI becoming part of the Irish sphere the likely one? Furthermore, that there is no prospect at all of the status quo holding?
    Northern Ireland is in a great position post Brexit, in a customs union and most of the single market and with no hard border with the Republic of Ireland so in a better position economically than GB in terms of trade with the EU but also still technically part of the UK with a UK government committed to minimise checks on goods going from GB to NI and vice versa, so also in a better position economically than the Republic of Ireland and EU in terms of trade with GB.

    Why would they want to change that?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    In Trump folk on here seem very sure of a candidate who doesn;t appear to be doing that well in the polls I see posted. Either equal or behind.

    What am I missing?

    All the crooked, immoral, and in some cases criminal things that Trump and the GOP will do to win the election. It will not be a fair fight.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    a

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You can when 70% of Alliance voters in that poll oppose a United Ireland and they are the key swing voters in Northern Ireland
    Once, just once, could you try reading what was linked to rather than going into auto-HYUFD? There's a very specific and interesting point being made, one which requires careful thought rather than leading to easy conclusions (and which, incidentally, throws into question your polloid).
    Not really as even the author makes clear

    https://twitter.com/peterdonaghy/status/1230468621467557888?s=20
    Try actually reading the article.
    Don't let reality get in the way of HYUFD ...
    If you read the article he says Alliance voters tend to be more undecided but the latest poll has 70% of them opposing a United Ireland after the Sinn Fein rise in the Republic
    Aren't there a record low number of Unionist MPs in NI?
    43% of Northern Irish voters voted for Unionist parties compared to only 38% for Nationalist parties
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited February 2020
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    a

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You can when 70% of Alliance voters in that poll oppose a United Ireland and they are the key swing voters in Northern Ireland
    Once, just once, could you try reading what was linked to rather than going into auto-HYUFD? There's a very specific and interesting point being made, one which requires careful thought rather than leading to easy conclusions (and which, incidentally, throws into question your polloid).
    Not really as even the author makes clear

    https://twitter.com/peterdonaghy/status/1230468621467557888?s=20
    Try actually reading the article.
    Don't let reality get in the way of HYUFD ...
    If you read the article he says Alliance voters tend to be more undecided but the latest poll has 70% of them opposing a United Ireland after the Sinn Fein rise in the Republic
    It hasn't got 70% opposing a United Ireland - that figure comes from your own imagination...
    It has 70% of Alliance voters oppose a United Ireland, as do 99% of DUP and UUP voters

    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Given the alternative to the ECJ is unilateral decision on adequacy by EU committee - an adequacy assessment that they can remove at whim - I would suggest ECJ oversight brings legal objectivity and protection for UK interests that at the end of the day are the weaker party.
    Do you ever get tired of furiously masturbating over your love of the EU?
  • glw said:

    In Trump folk on here seem very sure of a candidate who doesn;t appear to be doing that well in the polls I see posted. Either equal or behind.

    What am I missing?

    All the crooked, immoral, and in some cases criminal things that Trump and the GOP will do to win the election. It will not be a fair fight.
    Incumbent. Economy good. Social media mastered. Buckets of money, none wasted on primary.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    I suspect there isn't a huge groundswell of opinion in NI for a united Ireland, but when the status quo is apparently not an option, you have to choose one of the alternatives. The alternatives don't look attractive from a NI perspective, hence the absolute rejection across the board for Johnson's shabby protocol deal.

    So what will happen?

    1. The UK actually implements the sea border it agreed with the EU. As the land border will be open and the sea border imposes major costs on what passes for a NI economy, the orientation of that economy will probably switch to the south from the east. Add in the facts that most NI people have Irish/EU passports and EU legislation will have greater immediate impact on them than UK equivalents, we are likely to see NI move into an Irish sphere whether or not it formally separates from the UK.

    2. The UK doesn't implement the sea border it agreed with the EU. The hard border switches to the land border. Most thinking people realise this would be a disaster and there are likely IMO to be very urgent calls to get NI formally into the Republic.

    Either way, we are likely to greater integration of NI into Ireland, revealing unionists' massive strategic error in undermining the status quo that was their best friend.
    The Irish border will remain exactly as it was before Brexit as per the GFA
    Will the UK government impose two way checks on goods as they have agreed in the protocol so goods entering into NI can freely flow in and out of the Republic? This will impose very significant costs on NI businesses that trade with the rUK, to the extent of bankrupting quite a few of them on their current business model. In that case will business look to EU trade, which is frictionless and freeflow? Given all that do you accept my option 1 of a NI becoming part of the Irish sphere the likely one? Furthermore, that there is no prospect at all of the status quo holding?
    Northern Ireland is in a great position post Brexit, in a customs union and most of the single market and with no hard border with the Republic of Ireland so in a better position economically than GB in terms of trade with the EU but also still technically part of the UK with a UK government committed to minimise checks on goods going from GB to NI and vice versa, so also in a better position economically than the Republic of Ireland and EU in terms of trade with GB.

    Why would they want to change that?
    It's in such a position because it's almost still in the EU.

    It is coming to something when Conservatives are defending the government by deploying the phrase that NI is still "technically" part of the UK.
  • HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    a

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You can when 70% of Alliance voters in that poll oppose a United Ireland and they are the key swing voters in Northern Ireland
    Once, just once, could you try reading what was linked to rather than going into auto-HYUFD? There's a very specific and interesting point being made, one which requires careful thought rather than leading to easy conclusions (and which, incidentally, throws into question your polloid).
    Not really as even the author makes clear

    https://twitter.com/peterdonaghy/status/1230468621467557888?s=20
    Try actually reading the article.
    Don't let reality get in the way of HYUFD ...
    If you read the article he says Alliance voters tend to be more undecided but the latest poll has 70% of them opposing a United Ireland after the Sinn Fein rise in the Republic
    It hasn't got 70% opposing a United Ireland - that figure comes from your own imagination...
    It has 70% of Alliance voters oppose a United Ireland, as do 99% of DUP and UUP voters

    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html
    After don't knows have been taken out. Which was precisely the point of the article I originally linked to.
  • Blair:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1230443222977126400

    Dems heading same way, as he says.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    edited February 2020
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:



    The Irish border will remain exactly as it was before Brexit as per the GFA

    Will the UK government impose two way checks on goods as they have agreed in the protocol so goods entering into NI can freely flow in and out of the Republic? This will impose very significant costs on NI businesses that trade with the rUK, to the extent of bankrupting quite a few of them on their current business model. In that case will business look to EU trade, which is frictionless and freeflow? Given all that do you accept my option 1 of a NI becoming part of the Irish sphere the likely one? Furthermore, that there is no prospect at all of the status quo holding?
    Northern Ireland is in a great position post Brexit, in a customs union and most of the single market and with no hard border with the Republic of Ireland so in a better position economically than GB in terms of trade with the EU but also still technically part of the UK with a UK government committed to minimise checks on goods going from GB to NI and vice versa, so also in a better position economically than the Republic of Ireland and EU in terms of trade with GB.

    Why would they want to change that?
    If the UK government meets its commitments, NI won't be in a better position than Republic of Ireland and EU in terms of trade with GB. That's the whole point of the protocol.

    I accept NI may eventually be better off as part of a United Ireland. Its semi-detached arrangement with the UK isn't doing it much good. But somehow I think that question should be taken from first principles, rather than as a consequence of a hole-in-the-corner deal concocted by Johnson for his political advantage.
  • HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    a

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You can when 70% of Alliance voters in that poll oppose a United Ireland and they are the key swing voters in Northern Ireland
    Once, just once, could you try reading what was linked to rather than going into auto-HYUFD? There's a very specific and interesting point being made, one which requires careful thought rather than leading to easy conclusions (and which, incidentally, throws into question your polloid).
    Not really as even the author makes clear

    https://twitter.com/peterdonaghy/status/1230468621467557888?s=20
    Try actually reading the article.
    Don't let reality get in the way of HYUFD ...
    If you read the article he says Alliance voters tend to be more undecided but the latest poll has 70% of them opposing a United Ireland after the Sinn Fein rise in the Republic
    It hasn't got 70% opposing a United Ireland - that figure comes from your own imagination...
    It has 70% of Alliance voters oppose a United Ireland, as do 99% of DUP and UUP voters

    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html
    After don't knows have been taken out. Which was precisely the point of the article I originally linked to.
    That's a little surprising about alliance.

    If it was MLAs it would be other way round I'd assume.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited February 2020

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    a

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You can when 70% of Alliance voters in that poll oppose a United Ireland and they are the key swing voters in Northern Ireland
    Once, just once, could you try reading what was linked to rather than going into auto-HYUFD? There's a very specific and interesting point being made, one which requires careful thought rather than leading to easy conclusions (and which, incidentally, throws into question your polloid).
    Not really as even the author makes clear

    https://twitter.com/peterdonaghy/status/1230468621467557888?s=20
    Try actually reading the article.
    Don't let reality get in the way of HYUFD ...
    If you read the article he says Alliance voters tend to be more undecided but the latest poll has 70% of them opposing a United Ireland after the Sinn Fein rise in the Republic
    It hasn't got 70% opposing a United Ireland - that figure comes from your own imagination...
    It has 70% of Alliance voters oppose a United Ireland, as do 99% of DUP and UUP voters

    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html
    After don't knows have been taken out. Which was precisely the point of the article I originally linked to.
    He was saying previously don't knows tended to be Alliance voters, after the surge for the political wing of the IRA in the Republic of Ireland the poll showed clearly Alliance voters now swinging against a United Ireland
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Blair - Labour risks being "too strong to disappear but too weak to win"
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    a

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You can when 70% of Alliance voters in that poll oppose a United Ireland and they are the key swing voters in Northern Ireland
    Once, just once, could you try reading what was linked to rather than going into auto-HYUFD? There's a very specific and interesting point being made, one which requires careful thought rather than leading to easy conclusions (and which, incidentally, throws into question your polloid).
    Not really as even the author makes clear

    https://twitter.com/peterdonaghy/status/1230468621467557888?s=20
    Try actually reading the article.
    Don't let reality get in the way of HYUFD ...
    If you read the article he says Alliance voters tend to be more undecided but the latest poll has 70% of them opposing a United Ireland after the Sinn Fein rise in the Republic
    It hasn't got 70% opposing a United Ireland - that figure comes from your own imagination...
    It has 70% of Alliance voters oppose a United Ireland, as do 99% of DUP and UUP voters

    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html
    After don't knows have been taken out. Which was precisely the point of the article I originally linked to.
    He was saying previously don't knows tended to be Alliance voters, after the surge for the political wing of the IRA in the Republic of Ireland the poll showed clearly Alliance voters now swinging against a United Ireland
    Yes, and you are citing a 70% figure that strips out don't knows. So in other words you are repeatedly comparing apples and oranges.


  • 75 years on and it appears Germany hasn't changed much, there are still Nazi's running around.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited February 2020
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:



    The Irish border will remain exactly as it was before Brexit as per the GFA

    Will the UK government impose two way checks on goods as they have agreed in the protocol so goods entering into NI can freely flow in and out of the Republic? This will impose very significant costs on NI businesses that trade with the rUK, to the extent of bankrupting quite a few of them on their current business model. In that case will business look to EU trade, which is frictionless and freeflow? Given all that do you accept my option 1 of a NI becoming part of the Irish sphere the likely one? Furthermore, that there is no prospect at all of the status quo holding?
    Northern Ireland is in a great position post Brexit, in a customs union and most of the single market and with no hard border with the Republic of Ireland so in a better position economically than GB in terms of trade with the EU but also still technically part of the UK with a UK government committed to minimise checks on goods going from GB to NI and vice versa, so also in a better position economically than the Republic of Ireland and EU in terms of trade with GB.

    Why would they want to change that?
    If the UK government meets its commitments, NI won't be in a better position than Republic of Ireland and EU in terms of trade with GB. That's the whole point of the protocol.

    I accept NI may eventually be better off as part of a United Ireland. Its semi-detached arrangement with the UK isn't doing it much good. But somehow I think that question should be taken from first principles, rather than as a consequence of a hole-in-the-corner deal concocted by Johnson for his political advantage.
    It will be as it remains a part of the UK and a member of the WTO as part of the UK, if we go to WTO+ terms from December.

    I know you are a diehard Remainer ideologically opposed to Brexit no matter what the cost and who favours a United Ireland to undermine Brexit but facts are facts
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 431
    FF43 said:

    I suspect there isn't a huge groundswell of opinion in NI for a united Ireland, but when the status quo is apparently not an option, you have to choose one of the alternatives. The alternatives don't look attractive from a NI perspective, hence the absolute rejection across the board for Johnson's shabby protocol deal.

    So what will happen?

    1. The UK actually implements the sea border it agreed with the EU. As the land border will be open and the sea border imposes major costs on what passes for a NI economy, the orientation of that economy will probably switch to the south from the east. Add in the facts that most NI people have Irish/EU passports and EU legislation will have greater immediate impact on them than UK equivalents, we are likely to see NI move into an Irish sphere whether or not it formally separates from the UK.

    2. The UK doesn't implement the sea border it agreed with the EU. The hard border switches to the land border. Most thinking people realise this would be a disaster and there are likely IMO to be very urgent calls to get NI formally into the Republic.

    Either way, we are likely to greater integration of NI into Ireland, revealing unionists' massive strategic error in undermining the status quo that was their best friend.
    All of what you say is true. In particular, wanting Brexit, wanting no distinction between NI and the rest of the UK, and wanting peace in NI were always incompatible. This has been stated publicly for years. However, the consequences might turn out well for the most extreme unionists, who aren't that bothered about whether there is peace or not.

    Look at the pre-2016 trend in NI. That's before the EU referendum, and before the collapse of Stormont. NI was moving further away from its violent past, and the Irish/British (or Catholic/Protestant, if you prefer) divide was getting less important. The grandchildren of today's politicians, when they grew up, would have no interest in defining themselves in these terms.

    How would those grandchildren vote in a border poll? They wouldn't feel strongly about it, but they'd marginally prefer to be part of the country they share most with culturally, whether Protestant or Catholic. Namely Ireland.

    The way to prevent that is to inflame tensions, create the threat (or the reality) of a hard border and the inevitable violence that would follow, have people demanding a border poll decades ahead of time, and reinforce the sectarian divide. Under this scenario, the grandchildren of today's politicians will still define themselves in sectarian terms, and the status quo will be preserved.

    I'm not so cynical to believe that was behind the DUP's thinking, en masse, but nor am I so naïve to think that this hasn't occurred to any of them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited February 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    a

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You can when 70% of Alliance voters in that poll oppose a United Ireland and they are the key swing voters in Northern Ireland
    Once, just once, could you try reading what was linked to rather than going into auto-HYUFD? There's a very specific and interesting point being made, one which requires careful thought rather than leading to easy conclusions (and which, incidentally, throws into question your polloid).
    Not really as even the author makes clear

    https://twitter.com/peterdonaghy/status/1230468621467557888?s=20
    Try actually reading the article.
    Don't let reality get in the way of HYUFD ...
    If you read the article he says Alliance voters tend to be more undecided but the latest poll has 70% of them opposing a United Ireland after the Sinn Fein rise in the Republic
    It hasn't got 70% opposing a United Ireland - that figure comes from your own imagination...
    It has 70% of Alliance voters oppose a United Ireland, as do 99% of DUP and UUP voters

    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html
    After don't knows have been taken out. Which was precisely the point of the article I originally linked to.
    He was saying previously don't knows tended to be Alliance voters, after the surge for the political wing of the IRA in the Republic of Ireland the poll showed clearly Alliance voters now swinging against a United Ireland
    Yes, and you are citing a 70% figure that strips out don't knows. So in other words you are repeatedly comparing apples and oranges.
    No, it is a clear swing of Alliance voters against a United Ireland, many of whom were previously don't knows, after the rise in the Sinn Fein vote in the Republic of Ireland general election.

    They clearly are less sympathetic to the political wing of the IRA than some on here
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555

    TGOHF666 said:


    Sanders is garbage - Corbyns old man with more swivelly eyes.

    He will lose very badly.
    I agree, but the Dems are probably going to lose anyway and at least with Sanders they will lose with a pure ideology. As the Presidency is winner-takes-all, unlike our Parliamentary system, it doesn't matter if they lose by one seat in the electoral college or 300. Unlike in Britain, where a hung Parliament is a very different proposition from a government with a majority of 100. (Though in practice, it's more complicated than that, given the coattails effect that Presidential elections have on Congressional ones in the same year).

    In fact, a huge defeat under Sanders in November might have a silver lining for the leadership if it results in more realistic centrism in the party.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    a

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You can when 70% of Alliance voters in that poll oppose a United Ireland and they are the key swing voters in Northern Ireland
    Once, just once, could you try reading what was linked to rather than going into auto-HYUFD? There's a very specific and interesting point being made, one which requires careful thought rather than leading to easy conclusions (and which, incidentally, throws into question your polloid).
    Not really as even the author makes clear

    https://twitter.com/peterdonaghy/status/1230468621467557888?s=20
    Try actually reading the article.
    Don't let reality get in the way of HYUFD ...
    If you read the article he says Alliance voters tend to be more undecided but the latest poll has 70% of them opposing a United Ireland after the Sinn Fein rise in the Republic
    It hasn't got 70% opposing a United Ireland - that figure comes from your own imagination...
    It has 70% of Alliance voters oppose a United Ireland, as do 99% of DUP and UUP voters

    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html
    After don't knows have been taken out. Which was precisely the point of the article I originally linked to.
    He was saying previously don't knows tended to be Alliance voters, after the surge for the political wing of the IRA in the Republic of Ireland the poll showed clearly Alliance voters now swinging against a United Ireland
    Yes, and you are citing a 70% figure that strips out don't knows. So in other words you are repeatedly comparing apples and oranges.
    No, it is a clear swing of Alliance voters against a United Ireland, many of whom were previously don't knows, after the rise in the Sinn Fein vote in the Republic of Ireland general election.

    They clearly are less sympathetic to the political wing of the IRA than some on here
    You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. You're using an after don't knows figure to claim that don't knows have swung against a united Ireland. That is a nonsensical argument.
  • eek said:

    HYUFD said:
    Turkey have removed visas for all EU countries to increase Tourism - the UK isn't anything special...
    It does though remind us that countries are unwise to make it expensive or difficult for tourists to visit them, because they may choose to go elsewhere. Is the EU listening?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    Quite something from the man who played Frank N Furter
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729

    isam said:

    La Repubblica currently has an article online about the UK's immigration changes under the headline:

    "Il muro della Brexit per gli europei e la vergogna a punti"

    One of our resident Italian speakers can do a better job than me, but I think the gist is "The wall of Brexit for Europeans and the shame in points".

    So Britain is making new friends everywhere with its drawbridge rhetoric.

    Blimey Alastair, you’d shoot anyone down in flames if they argued and quoted sources the way you have recently

    ‘Born as a radical leftist newspaper it has since moderated to a milder centre-left political stance’

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Repubblica

    The Italian Guardian doesn’t like immigration control

    You'll have to give me the @isam-approved list of newspapers to quote from. I'm not feeling particularly guilty about citing an article from Italy's second biggest-selling newspaper. It's not exactly the New European or Breitbart.
    No I wouldn’t want to do that. I’ll just comment where I think it’s necessary to point it out.


  • 75 years on and it appears Germany hasn't changed much, there are still Nazi's running around.

    We have far right groups here too. In neither country are they running anything.
  • Fishing said:

    TGOHF666 said:


    Sanders is garbage - Corbyns old man with more swivelly eyes.

    He will lose very badly.
    I agree, but the Dems are probably going to lose anyway and at least with Sanders they will lose with a pure ideology. As the Presidency is winner-takes-all, unlike our Parliamentary system, it doesn't matter if they lose by one seat in the electoral college or 300. Unlike in Britain, where a hung Parliament is a very different proposition from a government with a majority of 100. (Though in practice, it's more complicated than that, given the coattails effect that Presidential elections have on Congressional ones in the same year).

    In fact, a huge defeat under Sanders in November might have a silver lining for the leadership if it results in more realistic centrism in the party.
    If Dems lose congress thanks to Sanders, then Trump will be unbound.
  • In Trump folk on here seem very sure of a candidate who doesn;t appear to be doing that well in the polls I see posted. Either equal or behind.

    What am I missing?

    SOP? Nobody ever admits they're going to lose this early in the game.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    The attacks on Sanders though are interesting, especially his statement that a Sanders nomination guarantees Trump's re election
    I agree. It also looks lacking in thought, since his attack on Bernie Sanders earlier in the week was based around Bernie Sanders' contingent support for other hypothetical nominees. He looks hypocritical.
    I suspect that Sanders as President would be Bloomberg’s worst outcome
  • Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    The attacks on Sanders though are interesting, especially his statement that a Sanders nomination guarantees Trump's re election
    I agree. It also looks lacking in thought, since his attack on Bernie Sanders earlier in the week was based around Bernie Sanders' contingent support for other hypothetical nominees. He looks hypocritical.
    I suspect that Sanders as President would be Bloomberg’s worst outcome
    Well, Bloomberg didn't look like a winner last night.
  • isam said:

    Quite something from the man who played Frank N Furter
    Tony Blair is Tim Curry?

    You are Richard O'Brien and I claim my £5
  • Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    The attacks on Sanders though are interesting, especially his statement that a Sanders nomination guarantees Trump's re election
    I agree. It also looks lacking in thought, since his attack on Bernie Sanders earlier in the week was based around Bernie Sanders' contingent support for other hypothetical nominees. He looks hypocritical.
    I suspect that Sanders as President would be Bloomberg’s worst outcome
    Well, Bloomberg didn't look like a winner last night.
    I do not follow (or care about) US politics, but Mr Bloomberg comes across to me as a nasty piece of work.

    From what I can gather from the comments on here, the Dems need Sanders to retire or shuffle off this mortal coil so they can lose their fixation with him and select an electable candidate.

    Seriously - who is going to vote for a man so old he looks like will die in office?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729

    isam said:

    Quite something from the man who played Frank N Furter
    Tony Blair is Tim Curry?

    You are Richard O'Brien and I claim my £5
    He always reminds me of him when he grins
  • Fishing said:

    TGOHF666 said:


    Sanders is garbage - Corbyns old man with more swivelly eyes.

    He will lose very badly.
    I agree, but the Dems are probably going to lose anyway and at least with Sanders they will lose with a pure ideology. As the Presidency is winner-takes-all, unlike our Parliamentary system, it doesn't matter if they lose by one seat in the electoral college or 300. Unlike in Britain, where a hung Parliament is a very different proposition from a government with a majority of 100. (Though in practice, it's more complicated than that, given the coattails effect that Presidential elections have on Congressional ones in the same year).

    In fact, a huge defeat under Sanders in November might have a silver lining for the leadership if it results in more realistic centrism in the party.
    If Dems lose congress thanks to Sanders, then Trump will be unbound.
    Trump had both Houses of Congress at the start in 2016, he only lost the House in 2018 and still has the Senate.
  • Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    The attacks on Sanders though are interesting, especially his statement that a Sanders nomination guarantees Trump's re election
    I agree. It also looks lacking in thought, since his attack on Bernie Sanders earlier in the week was based around Bernie Sanders' contingent support for other hypothetical nominees. He looks hypocritical.
    I suspect that Sanders as President would be Bloomberg’s worst outcome
    Well, Bloomberg didn't look like a winner last night.
    I do not follow (or care about) US politics, but Mr Bloomberg comes across to me as a nasty piece of work.

    From what I can gather from the comments on here, the Dems need Sanders to retire or shuffle off this mortal coil so they can lose their fixation with him and select an electable candidate.

    Seriously - who is going to vote for a man so old he looks like will die in office?
    Who is not even a Democrat...
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    In a polling milestone, Trump gets first ever positive approval rating with Gallup:
    https://twitter.com/SteveKornacki/status/1230487726023114753
  • Ha, actually heard the Leeds news from my mum (her bus had to go a different route).

    Apparently she walked past the site in question earlier, but claims the device is nothing to do with her.
  • Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    The attacks on Sanders though are interesting, especially his statement that a Sanders nomination guarantees Trump's re election
    I agree. It also looks lacking in thought, since his attack on Bernie Sanders earlier in the week was based around Bernie Sanders' contingent support for other hypothetical nominees. He looks hypocritical.
    I suspect that Sanders as President would be Bloomberg’s worst outcome
    Well, Bloomberg didn't look like a winner last night.
    I do not follow (or care about) US politics, but Mr Bloomberg comes across to me as a nasty piece of work.

    From what I can gather from the comments on here, the Dems need Sanders to retire or shuffle off this mortal coil so they can lose their fixation with him and select an electable candidate.

    Seriously - who is going to vote for a man so old he looks like will die in office?
    Who is not even a Democrat...
    Crazy.
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981

    Fishing said:

    TGOHF666 said:


    Sanders is garbage - Corbyns old man with more swivelly eyes.

    He will lose very badly.
    I agree, but the Dems are probably going to lose anyway and at least with Sanders they will lose with a pure ideology. As the Presidency is winner-takes-all, unlike our Parliamentary system, it doesn't matter if they lose by one seat in the electoral college or 300. Unlike in Britain, where a hung Parliament is a very different proposition from a government with a majority of 100. (Though in practice, it's more complicated than that, given the coattails effect that Presidential elections have on Congressional ones in the same year).

    In fact, a huge defeat under Sanders in November might have a silver lining for the leadership if it results in more realistic centrism in the party.
    If Dems lose congress thanks to Sanders, then Trump will be unbound.
    If Trump gets re-elected I would expect the Democrats to lose 10 seats in the House but still keep control of it.

    In the Senate I expect no net change if Trump wins, Democrats should win the Arizona and Colorado Senate seats no matter what, but lose Alabama and Michigan.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    Quite something from the man who played Frank N Furter
    Tony Blair is Tim Curry?

    You are Richard O'Brien and I claim my £5
    He always reminds me of him when he grins
    Surely the Joker would be more apt?

    I always called Blair "Mr Sweaty". When he whipped his jacket off he always seemed to be drenched

    image
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Quite something from the man who played Frank N Furter
    Tony Blair is Tim Curry?

    You are Richard O'Brien and I claim my £5
    He always reminds me of him when he grins
    Surely the Joker would be more apt?

    I always called Blair "Mr Sweaty". When he whipped his jacket off he always seemed to be drenched
    He needed one of Zuckerberg's armpit driers.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    The attacks on Sanders though are interesting, especially his statement that a Sanders nomination guarantees Trump's re election
    I agree. It also looks lacking in thought, since his attack on Bernie Sanders earlier in the week was based around Bernie Sanders' contingent support for other hypothetical nominees. He looks hypocritical.
    I suspect that Sanders as President would be Bloomberg’s worst outcome
    Well, Bloomberg didn't look like a winner last night.
    I do not follow (or care about) US politics, but Mr Bloomberg comes across to me as a nasty piece of work.

    From what I can gather from the comments on here, the Dems need Sanders to retire or shuffle off this mortal coil so they can lose their fixation with him and select an electable candidate.

    Seriously - who is going to vote for a man so old he looks like will die in office?
    Maybe, but perhaps a nasty piece of work is what it takes to beat Trump.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    speedy2 said:

    Fishing said:

    TGOHF666 said:


    Sanders is garbage - Corbyns old man with more swivelly eyes.

    He will lose very badly.
    I agree, but the Dems are probably going to lose anyway and at least with Sanders they will lose with a pure ideology. As the Presidency is winner-takes-all, unlike our Parliamentary system, it doesn't matter if they lose by one seat in the electoral college or 300. Unlike in Britain, where a hung Parliament is a very different proposition from a government with a majority of 100. (Though in practice, it's more complicated than that, given the coattails effect that Presidential elections have on Congressional ones in the same year).

    In fact, a huge defeat under Sanders in November might have a silver lining for the leadership if it results in more realistic centrism in the party.
    If Dems lose congress thanks to Sanders, then Trump will be unbound.
    If Trump gets re-elected I would expect the Democrats to lose 10 seats in the House but still keep control of it.

    In the Senate I expect no net change if Trump wins, Democrats should win the Arizona and Colorado Senate seats no matter what, but lose Alabama and Michigan.
    The Republican primary in Alabama is interesting. One of the polling favourites at the moment makes Roy Moore look like a well balanced individual with zero problems.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    speedy2 said:

    In a polling milestone, Trump gets first ever positive approval rating with Gallup:
    https://twitter.com/SteveKornacki/status/1230487726023114753




    That's an important chart.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    BETTING TIP

    Stacey Abrams is seriously underestimated to be the Democratic VP nomination. Several reasons:

    1. All six remaining candidates are white, and the biggest disadvantage the Dems faced in 2016 was collapsed black turnout. A black candidate would help them all a lot.

    2. Warren and Klobuchar now seem to not have a clear path to getting the presidential nomination, meaning a man at the top of the ticket who will need to balance with a woman.

    3. Biden, Buttigieg, Bloomberg will all need to reach out to the left if Sanders is defeated, and choose someone seen as being on the left of the party. Sanders is a doctrinaire left winger who recently had a heart attack, so will be thinking about a successor from the left.

    4. Abrams is an expert in voter turnout, which will be a critical skill for 2020.

    5. Georgia is becoming a swing state and the GOP cannot win without it. The population is rapidly growing due to the suburbs of Atlanta, and the suburbanites are disproportionately African American, so could have large upside for the Dems.

    6. Georgia also has two Senate seats up for grabs, which could give a new Democratic president the majority if Abrams pulls them over the line.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,393

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Quite something from the man who played Frank N Furter
    Tony Blair is Tim Curry?

    You are Richard O'Brien and I claim my £5
    He always reminds me of him when he grins
    Surely the Joker would be more apt?

    I always called Blair "Mr Sweaty". When he whipped his jacket off he always seemed to be drenched
    He needed one of Zuckerberg's armpit driers.
    It was his day off.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Love to see this broken down by state. It doesn't matter if Trump is doing gang busters in Missisissisisisisipi if he's sinking in Wisconsin.

    Likewise it doesn't matter if he's doing (relatively) badly in Louisiana if he's killing it in Michigan.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,256

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Quincel said:

    He has a very thoughtful and informed podcast; Reasons to be Cheerful. With a chap called Geoff Lloyd.
    I agree, he's one of those politicians who seems to have learned lessons from doing poorly at a big job and may well be better second time around. Hague was the same, a strong cabinet minister after an iffy LoTO.
    Both took the job too early and tried/were persuaded to be someone they were not. They both looked faintly ridiculous doing so and both looked much more convincing after giving up the leadership and feeling free to be themselves.

    Hague was never in a position to beat Blair in 2001 (no one was), but Miliband, had he kicked out some of his advisors/speech writers and/or had the balls not to care what people thought of him... Who knows? And what a different place we might be in now if he'd won! For better or worse, depending on your point of view, but we might have been arguing about quite different things for the past three and a half years!
    It's often forgotten that the 2015 election wasn't a conventional Labour vs Tory fight. That ended up more or less even, but the Tories lost more seats to Labour than they won from them. The Tories won their majority by taking seats from their Coalition partners, and Labour lost heavily to the SNP.. It was the collapse of LD's and the rise of the SNP which ushered in the period of disastrous politics which we are now experiencing.
    True, but Labour might have attracted more of the collapsing LD vote with a better leader (or same leader performing better). Who knows? Rise of SNP was probably almost unstoppable at that point.

    Outright Labour majority probably a stretch, so we might have got to experience chaos with Ed Miliband (and some kind of SNP involvement).
    IIRC Labour won all the seats from the LD's that it might have been reasonable expected to.
    You've clearly looked at this in more detail than I have, so I think this is a good point for me to say that I'm wrong :smile:

    We were doomed to the present reality from the press conference in the rose garden, or from the trebling of tuition fees, at least.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    Elizabeth Warren has just overtaken Hillary Clinton on Betfair...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    The attacks on Sanders though are interesting, especially his statement that a Sanders nomination guarantees Trump's re election
    I agree. It also looks lacking in thought, since his attack on Bernie Sanders earlier in the week was based around Bernie Sanders' contingent support for other hypothetical nominees. He looks hypocritical.
    I suspect that Sanders as President would be Bloomberg’s worst outcome
    Well, Bloomberg didn't look like a winner last night.
    I do not follow (or care about) US politics, but Mr Bloomberg comes across to me as a nasty piece of work.

    From what I can gather from the comments on here, the Dems need Sanders to retire or shuffle off this mortal coil so they can lose their fixation with him and select an electable candidate.

    Seriously - who is going to vote for a man so old he looks like will die in office?
    Norman Tebbit looked like he had died in office a couple of terms back.

    (Not for the want of the IRA trying.)
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,393
    BTW: News for folk who have recently joined the Labour Party (aka "Entryists"). Apparently, if you have so much as uttered anything nice about another party in the 2 years prior to applying to join, this is grounds for having your application rejected.

    But don't worry, by the time this process is sorted out, you'll already have voted in the leadership election.

    This implies that if a Tory MP stood up to cross the floor of the House, we'd tell him to piss off and sit back down.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Quincel said:

    Elizabeth Warren has just overtaken Hillary Clinton on Betfair...

    Damn it, I laid off too early
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    edited February 2020

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Quite something from the man who played Frank N Furter
    Tony Blair is Tim Curry?

    You are Richard O'Brien and I claim my £5
    He always reminds me of him when he grins
    Surely the Joker would be more apt?

    I always called Blair "Mr Sweaty". When he whipped his jacket off he always seemed to be drenched

    “They were the transsexuals transsexual...”


  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673



    75 years on and it appears Germany hasn't changed much, there are still Nazi's running around.

    Same as here
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    Quite something from the man who played Frank N Furter
    Tony Blair is Tim Curry?

    You are Richard O'Brien and I claim my £5
    He always reminds me of him when he grins
    Surely the Joker would be more apt?

    I always called Blair "Mr Sweaty". When he whipped his jacket off he always seemed to be drenched
    He needed one of Zuckerberg's armpit driers.
    Is that a thing? Wow!
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729



    75 years on and it appears Germany hasn't changed much, there are still Nazi's running around.

    We have far right groups here too. In neither country are they running anything.
    What are the chances this ‘terrorist’ was also a drug abuser like almost all the Islamic ones?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    In Trump folk on here seem very sure of a candidate who doesn;t appear to be doing that well in the polls I see posted. Either equal or behind.

    What am I missing?

    SOP? Nobody ever admits they're going to lose this early in the game.
    The Dem candidates' primary game plan for sure.
  • HYUFD said:

    Blair says he wonders if Labour leadership candidates have sufficient hunger for power and says while a more moderate leader would help Labour must also adapt to technological change and redefine radicalism.

    He also says the party just not get into a culture war on trans rights

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51560294

    "Mr Blair's case is that politics is in a period of unprecedented change, driven in large part by rapidly changing technology. The scale of upheaval and disruption with AI, genetic engineering, driverless cars and so on - is re-shaping society and politics."

    Blair channelling his inner Dominic Cummings?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Quite something from the man who played Frank N Furter
    Tony Blair is Tim Curry?

    You are Richard O'Brien and I claim my £5
    He always reminds me of him when he grins
    Surely the Joker would be more apt?

    I always called Blair "Mr Sweaty". When he whipped his jacket off he always seemed to be drenched
    He needed one of Zuckerberg's armpit driers.
    It was his day off.
    How many immigration points is that skill?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    MaxPB said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Given the alternative to the ECJ is unilateral decision on adequacy by EU committee - an adequacy assessment that they can remove at whim - I would suggest ECJ oversight brings legal objectivity and protection for UK interests that at the end of the day are the weaker party.
    Do you ever get tired of furiously masturbating over your love of the EU?
    That remark is unworthy of me!

    The Norwegian parliament made a similar point about legal protections in their report about their relationship with the EU. The report is an interesting read.

    https://www.regjeringen.no/globalassets/upload/ud/vedlegg/eu/nou2012_2_chapter27.pdf
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    What are the Democrats playing at? Has Trump sent them barmy? At this rate, they'll nominate Methuselah as a write-in candidate.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1230460383690973185

    Quite something from the man who played Frank N Furter
    Tony Blair is Tim Curry?

    You are Richard O'Brien and I claim my £5
    He always reminds me of him when he grins
    Surely the Joker would be more apt?

    I always called Blair "Mr Sweaty". When he whipped his jacket off he always seemed to be drenched

    “They were the transsexuals transsexual...”
    A very misunderstood condition but probably "advanced" for its time. Given Richard O'Brien's more recent comments on gender, including his own, the RHPS is not exactly a textbook on the condition.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,850
    New Betfair market up -

    "Will any Dem get a majority of pledged delegates?" Yes or No.

    50/50.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    Alistair said:

    Quincel said:

    Elizabeth Warren has just overtaken Hillary Clinton on Betfair...

    Damn it, I laid off too early
    It makes sense, I thought Clinton has been terrible in the debates so far. Completely invisible. And not even filing for a single state. I'm starting to think she isn't as likely to win as a candidate on 10%+ of the vote and a skilled debater.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    We are seeing a lot of tweets from people, whose family arrived in the uk from Asian countries, saying they wouldn’t have be allowed in under the govts new immigration policy, and pointing out that neither would Priti Patel’s

    Doesn’t the change in policy only affect the EU?
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited February 2020
    Quincel said:

    Alistair said:

    Quincel said:

    Elizabeth Warren has just overtaken Hillary Clinton on Betfair...

    Damn it, I laid off too early
    It makes sense, I thought Clinton has been terrible in the debates so far. Completely invisible. And not even filing for a single state. I'm starting to think she isn't as likely to win as a candidate on 10%+ of the vote and a skilled debater.
    As the tale of Bloomberg has shown, entering into the Democratic primary race is a drag on your chances of winning it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,767
    Fishing said:

    TGOHF666 said:


    Sanders is garbage - Corbyns old man with more swivelly eyes.

    He will lose very badly.
    I agree, but the Dems are probably going to lose anyway and at least with Sanders they will lose with a pure ideology. As the Presidency is winner-takes-all, unlike our Parliamentary system, it doesn't matter if they lose by one seat in the electoral college or 300. Unlike in Britain, where a hung Parliament is a very different proposition from a government with a majority of 100. (Though in practice, it's more complicated than that, given the coattails effect that Presidential elections have on Congressional ones in the same year).

    In fact, a huge defeat under Sanders in November might have a silver lining for the leadership if it results in more realistic centrism in the party.
    Yes,

    Also, it's very important that it is Presidential Trump who deals with the fallout from his economic policies.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    isam said:

    We are seeing a lot of tweets from people, whose family arrived in the uk from Asian countries, saying they wouldn’t have be allowed in under the govts new immigration policy, and pointing out that neither would Priti Patel’s

    Doesn’t the change in policy only affect the EU?

    Well, isn't it the case that successive governments have done nothing to reduce non-EU immigration? So presumably the present rules for non-EU people are laxer than the new ones.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861
    Gabs3 said:

    BETTING TIP
    5. Georgia is becoming a swing state and the GOP cannot win without it. The population is rapidly growing due to the suburbs of Atlanta, and the suburbanites are disproportionately African American, so could have large upside for the Dems.

    If Trump wins all the states he won in 2016 minus GA then he still gets enough EC votes. Anyway as his winning margin in 2016 was 5-points, if the Dem candidate is getting 5% swings in marginal states then the result will a easy win for the Dems.

    I can see GA becoming an important swing state in the future, but requires at least a couple of electoral cycles.

    The swing state that really matters is FLA. Is there a popular back female from Florida who could be on the VP ticket?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    rpjs said:

    isam said:

    We are seeing a lot of tweets from people, whose family arrived in the uk from Asian countries, saying they wouldn’t have be allowed in under the govts new immigration policy, and pointing out that neither would Priti Patel’s

    Doesn’t the change in policy only affect the EU?

    Well, isn't it the case that successive governments have done nothing to reduce non-EU immigration? So presumably the present rules for non-EU people are laxer than the new ones.
    That would make sense, yes. I thought the change was just for EU citizens but you must be right.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    TGOHF666 said:


    Sanders is garbage - Corbyns old man with more swivelly eyes.

    He will lose very badly.
    I agree, but the Dems are probably going to lose anyway and at least with Sanders they will lose with a pure ideology. As the Presidency is winner-takes-all, unlike our Parliamentary system, it doesn't matter if they lose by one seat in the electoral college or 300. Unlike in Britain, where a hung Parliament is a very different proposition from a government with a majority of 100. (Though in practice, it's more complicated than that, given the coattails effect that Presidential elections have on Congressional ones in the same year).

    In fact, a huge defeat under Sanders in November might have a silver lining for the leadership if it results in more realistic centrism in the party.
    Yes,

    Also, it's very important that it is Presidential Trump who deals with the fallout from his economic policies.
    I don't get that at all. You don't presumably think he will make the best job of it, so what's the point? So people will point at him and laugh? Anyone sensible already does. Or so he will feel jolly small? He won't.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:



    The Irish border will remain exactly as it was before Brexit as per the GFA

    Will the UK government impose two way checks on goods as they have agreed in the protocol so goods entering into NI can freely flow in and out of the Republic? This will impose very significant costs on NI businesses that trade with the rUK, to the extent of bankrupting quite a few of them on their current business model. In that case will business look to EU trade, which is frictionless and freeflow? Given all that do you accept my option 1 of a NI becoming part of the Irish sphere the likely one? Furthermore, that there is no prospect at all of the status quo holding?
    Northern Ireland is in a great position post Brexit, in a customs union and most of the single market and with no hard border with the Republic of Ireland so in a better position economically than GB in terms of trade with the EU but also still technically part of the UK with a UK government committed to minimise checks on goods going from GB to NI and vice versa, so also in a better position economically than the Republic of Ireland and EU in terms of trade with GB.

    Why would they want to change that?
    If the UK government meets its commitments, NI won't be in a better position than Republic of Ireland and EU in terms of trade with GB. That's the whole point of the protocol.

    I accept NI may eventually be better off as part of a United Ireland. Its semi-detached arrangement with the UK isn't doing it much good. But somehow I think that question should be taken from first principles, rather than as a consequence of a hole-in-the-corner deal concocted by Johnson for his political advantage.
    It will be as it remains a part of the UK and a member of the WTO as part of the UK, if we go to WTO+ terms from December.

    I know you are a diehard Remainer ideologically opposed to Brexit no matter what the cost and who favours a United Ireland to undermine Brexit but facts are facts
    FWIW I am agnostic on a United Ireland. I think the rest of the UK has an obligation to support the Northern Ireland people in whatever decision they make. Johnson is certainly not doing that.

    I would also quibble about being a diehard Remainer ideologically opposed to Brexit. At what point does opposition to something because it is demonstrably crap become ideological opposition? In any case, Brexit is interesting precisely because it is crap.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,393
    rpjs said:

    isam said:

    We are seeing a lot of tweets from people, whose family arrived in the uk from Asian countries, saying they wouldn’t have be allowed in under the govts new immigration policy, and pointing out that neither would Priti Patel’s

    Doesn’t the change in policy only affect the EU?

    Well, isn't it the case that successive governments have done nothing to reduce non-EU immigration? So presumably the present rules for non-EU people are laxer than the new ones.
    I thought they were making it easier for non-EU migrants by lowering the salary threshold? And not giving EU nationals first dibs on all of the jobs.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    eristdoof said:

    Gabs3 said:

    BETTING TIP
    5. Georgia is becoming a swing state and the GOP cannot win without it. The population is rapidly growing due to the suburbs of Atlanta, and the suburbanites are disproportionately African American, so could have large upside for the Dems.

    If Trump wins all the states he won in 2016 minus GA then he still gets enough EC votes. Anyway as his winning margin in 2016 was 5-points, if the Dem candidate is getting 5% swings in marginal states then the result will a easy win for the Dems.

    I can see GA becoming an important swing state in the future, but requires at least a couple of electoral cycles.

    The swing state that really matters is FLA. Is there a popular back female from Florida who could be on the VP ticket?
    If we imagine the Democrats get a big boost from black turnout, the swing states it would most affect would be Pennsylvania, Michigan and Georgia. With Georgia being more than the other two. So the Dems winning Georgia and losing Wisconsin is very possible.

    I think Florida is very hard to swing. It is a very elderly state and a very Cuban state that will make a socialist on the ticket very dangerous.
  • Fishing said:

    TGOHF666 said:


    Sanders is garbage - Corbyns old man with more swivelly eyes.

    He will lose very badly.
    I agree, but the Dems are probably going to lose anyway and at least with Sanders they will lose with a pure ideology. As the Presidency is winner-takes-all, unlike our Parliamentary system, it doesn't matter if they lose by one seat in the electoral college or 300. Unlike in Britain, where a hung Parliament is a very different proposition from a government with a majority of 100. (Though in practice, it's more complicated than that, given the coattails effect that Presidential elections have on Congressional ones in the same year).

    In fact, a huge defeat under Sanders in November might have a silver lining for the leadership if it results in more realistic centrism in the party.
    What has realistic centrism (a term which begs the question of centrism's realism) to do with the price of fish? Sanders' support is not high; he is winning because he has so many opponents.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    TGOHF666 said:


    Sanders is garbage - Corbyns old man with more swivelly eyes.

    He will lose very badly.
    I agree, but the Dems are probably going to lose anyway and at least with Sanders they will lose with a pure ideology. As the Presidency is winner-takes-all, unlike our Parliamentary system, it doesn't matter if they lose by one seat in the electoral college or 300. Unlike in Britain, where a hung Parliament is a very different proposition from a government with a majority of 100. (Though in practice, it's more complicated than that, given the coattails effect that Presidential elections have on Congressional ones in the same year).

    In fact, a huge defeat under Sanders in November might have a silver lining for the leadership if it results in more realistic centrism in the party.
    Yes,

    Also, it's very important that it is Presidential Trump who deals with the fallout from his economic policies.
    Why? Trump is not up for reelection, has a cult like base who will support and love him through anything, and a level of narcissism that he doesn't care about people getting hurt.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,393
    Very off topic: First sighting of a Redwing in our garden this morning. At lunchtime there was a Mistle Thrush in the paddock behind us, but it didn't venture over our garden wall.

    Also, the recent deluges appear to have chased away the local rat population.
  • FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:


    It will be as it remains a part of the UK and a member of the WTO as part of the UK, if we go to WTO+ terms from December.

    I know you are a diehard Remainer ideologically opposed to Brexit no matter what the cost and who favours a United Ireland to undermine Brexit but facts are facts

    FWIW I am agnostic on a United Ireland. I think the rest of the UK has an obligation to support the Northern Ireland people in whatever decision they make. Johnson is certainly not doing that.

    I would also quibble about being a diehard Remainer ideologically opposed to Brexit. At what point does opposition to something because it is demonstrably crap become ideological opposition? In any case, Brexit is interesting precisely because it is crap.
    I was raised as a NI Unionist because of where I grew up. The GFA made the border ambiguous and Irish identity a bit "fuzzier" - less of an item for a Unionist to worry about whilst remaining a Unionist.

    But Brexit has changed my mind. The "Little Britain" Leaverism and, more recently, the disdain shown for NI by senior Conservative politicans (including Boris) has convinced me that a United Ireland may be better.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    rpjs said:

    isam said:

    We are seeing a lot of tweets from people, whose family arrived in the uk from Asian countries, saying they wouldn’t have be allowed in under the govts new immigration policy, and pointing out that neither would Priti Patel’s

    Doesn’t the change in policy only affect the EU?

    Well, isn't it the case that successive governments have done nothing to reduce non-EU immigration? So presumably the present rules for non-EU people are laxer than the new ones.
    I thought they were making it easier for non-EU migrants by lowering the salary threshold? And not giving EU nationals first dibs on all of the jobs.
    They’re making it easier for skilled non-EU migrants, and more difficult for unskilled EU migrants.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited February 2020
    Alistair said:

    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Well, you can kinda work that out from the states. If you look at the map and compare mid-term to now, you can see while he's underwater in Democratic bastions he's gaining in most of the places he needs to. The upper Midwest being a crucial outlier.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,850
    Gabs3 said:

    If we imagine the Democrats get a big boost from black turnout, the swing states it would most affect would be Pennsylvania, Michigan and Georgia. With Georgia being more than the other two. So the Dems winning Georgia and losing Wisconsin is very possible.

    I think Florida is very hard to swing. It is a very elderly state and a very Cuban state that will make a socialist on the ticket very dangerous.

    Even my superforecasted Dem landslide does not involve them taking Florida.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861


    75 years on and it appears Germany hasn't changed much, there are still Nazi's running around.

    You do realise that there is a difference between a couple of racist extremists shooting 11 people and a government whose policy is to kill an entire religion and race and getting close to succeeding.

  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861
    kinabalu said:

    Gabs3 said:

    If we imagine the Democrats get a big boost from black turnout, the swing states it would most affect would be Pennsylvania, Michigan and Georgia. With Georgia being more than the other two. So the Dems winning Georgia and losing Wisconsin is very possible.

    I think Florida is very hard to swing. It is a very elderly state and a very Cuban state that will make a socialist on the ticket very dangerous.

    Even my superforecasted Dem landslide does not involve them taking Florida.
    A Dem Landslide would not be able to overturn a 1.2point deficit?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Offtopic, but could Coronavirus be what was needed to kick-start international videoconferences?

    Internet guardian organisation ICANN is doing just that next month. They’ve cancelled their physical conference in Mexico and are doing the whole thing remotely.

    http://www.circleid.com/posts/20200219_icann_to_hold_first_ever_remote_public_meeting/
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited February 2020
    Alistair said:

    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Interesting, Trump appears to be far enough underwater in IA (6 EVs), MI (16), and WI (10) that the Dems should have little problems flipping them. That would put Trump on 273 so the Dems would only need to flip one more of the states where Trump is marginally underwater: AZ (11 EVs), FL (29), NC (15), OH (18), or PA (20).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,767
    eristdoof said:

    Gabs3 said:

    BETTING TIP
    5. Georgia is becoming a swing state and the GOP cannot win without it. The population is rapidly growing due to the suburbs of Atlanta, and the suburbanites are disproportionately African American, so could have large upside for the Dems.

    If Trump wins all the states he won in 2016 minus GA then he still gets enough EC votes. Anyway as his winning margin in 2016 was 5-points, if the Dem candidate is getting 5% swings in marginal states then the result will a easy win for the Dems.

    I can see GA becoming an important swing state in the future, but requires at least a couple of electoral cycles.

    The swing state that really matters is FLA. Is there a popular back female from Florida who could be on the VP ticket?
    I don't think Florida is a swing state in 2020. Just look at the 2018 Governor and Senate readers.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited February 2020
    eristdoof said:

    kinabalu said:

    Gabs3 said:

    If we imagine the Democrats get a big boost from black turnout, the swing states it would most affect would be Pennsylvania, Michigan and Georgia. With Georgia being more than the other two. So the Dems winning Georgia and losing Wisconsin is very possible.

    I think Florida is very hard to swing. It is a very elderly state and a very Cuban state that will make a socialist on the ticket very dangerous.

    Even my superforecasted Dem landslide does not involve them taking Florida.
    A Dem Landslide would not be able to overturn a 1.2point deficit?
    Looks like the ex-felon refranchisement in FL will stand, at least until November, so that would help the Dems a bit as ex-felons tend to lean Democratic by 2:1.

    ETA: Over 10% of Florida's population was disenfranchised for being ex-felons!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited February 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Gabs3 said:

    If we imagine the Democrats get a big boost from black turnout, the swing states it would most affect would be Pennsylvania, Michigan and Georgia. With Georgia being more than the other two. So the Dems winning Georgia and losing Wisconsin is very possible.

    I think Florida is very hard to swing. It is a very elderly state and a very Cuban state that will make a socialist on the ticket very dangerous.

    Even my superforecasted Dem landslide does not involve them taking Florida.
    The Florida Dems are pinning their hopes on a state constitutional change passed in 2018, that gives a number of felons the vote after their sentence has been served.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rpjs said:

    eristdoof said:

    kinabalu said:

    Gabs3 said:

    If we imagine the Democrats get a big boost from black turnout, the swing states it would most affect would be Pennsylvania, Michigan and Georgia. With Georgia being more than the other two. So the Dems winning Georgia and losing Wisconsin is very possible.

    I think Florida is very hard to swing. It is a very elderly state and a very Cuban state that will make a socialist on the ticket very dangerous.

    Even my superforecasted Dem landslide does not involve them taking Florida.
    A Dem Landslide would not be able to overturn a 1.2point deficit?
    Looks like the ex-felon refranchisement in FL will stand, at least until November, so that would help the Dems a bit as ex-felons tend to lean Democratic by 2:1
    Do you have a link for that as the last polling I had seen said ex felons were Republican leaning.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,767
    rpjs said:

    Alistair said:

    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Interesting, Trump appears to be far enough underwater in IA (6 EVs), MI (16), and WI (10) that the Dems should have little problems flipping them. That would put Trump on 273 so the Dems would only need to flip one more of the states where Trump is marginally underwater: AZ (11 EVs), FL (29), NC (15), OH (18), or PA (20).
    rpjs said:

    Alistair said:

    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Interesting, Trump appears to be far enough underwater in IA (6 EVs), MI (16), and WI (10) that the Dems should have little problems flipping them. That would put Trump on 273 so the Dems would only need to flip one more of the states where Trump is marginally underwater: AZ (11 EVs), FL (29), NC (15), OH (18), or PA (20).
    Although worth noting that Trump is not particularly unpopular in Virginia, so could that go the other way?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited February 2020
    Alistair said:

    rpjs said:

    eristdoof said:

    kinabalu said:

    Gabs3 said:

    If we imagine the Democrats get a big boost from black turnout, the swing states it would most affect would be Pennsylvania, Michigan and Georgia. With Georgia being more than the other two. So the Dems winning Georgia and losing Wisconsin is very possible.

    I think Florida is very hard to swing. It is a very elderly state and a very Cuban state that will make a socialist on the ticket very dangerous.

    Even my superforecasted Dem landslide does not involve them taking Florida.
    A Dem Landslide would not be able to overturn a 1.2point deficit?
    Looks like the ex-felon refranchisement in FL will stand, at least until November, so that would help the Dems a bit as ex-felons tend to lean Democratic by 2:1
    Do you have a link for that as the last polling I had seen said ex felons were Republican leaning.
    https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2020/Pres/Maps/Feb20.html#item-3 - possibly it's the split for Florida, rather than nationally.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080
    edited February 2020

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Quite something from the man who played Frank N Furter
    Tony Blair is Tim Curry?

    You are Richard O'Brien and I claim my £5
    He always reminds me of him when he grins
    Surely the Joker would be more apt?

    I always called Blair "Mr Sweaty". When he whipped his jacket off he always seemed to be drenched

    image
    Given Blair, it was probably lavender scented water sprayed on with a perfume-woofer through the kind of metal template Costa use to standardise barista ability by a dedicated assistant to give the precise shape of armpit moist-patch demanded by Ali Campbell.

    Or am I being too cynical?

  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    Alistair said:

    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Interesting, Trump appears to be far enough underwater in IA (6 EVs), MI (16), and WI (10) that the Dems should have little problems flipping them. That would put Trump on 273 so the Dems would only need to flip one more of the states where Trump is marginally underwater: AZ (11 EVs), FL (29), NC (15), OH (18), or PA (20).
    rpjs said:

    Alistair said:

    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Interesting, Trump appears to be far enough underwater in IA (6 EVs), MI (16), and WI (10) that the Dems should have little problems flipping them. That would put Trump on 273 so the Dems would only need to flip one more of the states where Trump is marginally underwater: AZ (11 EVs), FL (29), NC (15), OH (18), or PA (20).
    Although worth noting that Trump is not particularly unpopular in Virginia, so could that go the other way?
    No chance.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    edited February 2020
    rpjs said:

    Alistair said:

    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Interesting, Trump appears to be far enough underwater in IA (6 EVs), MI (16), and WI (10) that the Dems should have little problems flipping them. That would put Trump on 273 so the Dems would only need to flip one more of the states where Trump is marginally underwater: AZ (11 EVs), FL (29), NC (15), OH (18), or PA (20).
    I don't think Iowa will be that easy. Neither will Wisconsin. Pennsylvania will be easier.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    rpjs said:

    eristdoof said:

    kinabalu said:

    Gabs3 said:

    If we imagine the Democrats get a big boost from black turnout, the swing states it would most affect would be Pennsylvania, Michigan and Georgia. With Georgia being more than the other two. So the Dems winning Georgia and losing Wisconsin is very possible.

    I think Florida is very hard to swing. It is a very elderly state and a very Cuban state that will make a socialist on the ticket very dangerous.

    Even my superforecasted Dem landslide does not involve them taking Florida.
    A Dem Landslide would not be able to overturn a 1.2point deficit?
    Looks like the ex-felon refranchisement in FL will stand, at least until November, so that would help the Dems a bit as ex-felons tend to lean Democratic by 2:1.

    ETA: Over 10% of Florida's population was disenfranchised for being ex-felons!
    But ex-felons vote at very low rates. Dems might get a 0.5 pt advantage over it.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Gabs3 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    Alistair said:

    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Interesting, Trump appears to be far enough underwater in IA (6 EVs), MI (16), and WI (10) that the Dems should have little problems flipping them. That would put Trump on 273 so the Dems would only need to flip one more of the states where Trump is marginally underwater: AZ (11 EVs), FL (29), NC (15), OH (18), or PA (20).
    rpjs said:

    Alistair said:

    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Interesting, Trump appears to be far enough underwater in IA (6 EVs), MI (16), and WI (10) that the Dems should have little problems flipping them. That would put Trump on 273 so the Dems would only need to flip one more of the states where Trump is marginally underwater: AZ (11 EVs), FL (29), NC (15), OH (18), or PA (20).
    Although worth noting that Trump is not particularly unpopular in Virginia, so could that go the other way?
    No chance.
    VA is pretty solidly a blue state these days due to the migration of liberal voters to the state for work around DC. NC is a good target for the Democrats too for similar reasons: increasing high-tech employment in places like the Research Triangle is changing the state's demographics to the Democrats' favour.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    rpjs said:

    Gabs3 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    Alistair said:

    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Interesting, Trump appears to be far enough underwater in IA (6 EVs), MI (16), and WI (10) that the Dems should have little problems flipping them. That would put Trump on 273 so the Dems would only need to flip one more of the states where Trump is marginally underwater: AZ (11 EVs), FL (29), NC (15), OH (18), or PA (20).
    rpjs said:

    Alistair said:

    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Interesting, Trump appears to be far enough underwater in IA (6 EVs), MI (16), and WI (10) that the Dems should have little problems flipping them. That would put Trump on 273 so the Dems would only need to flip one more of the states where Trump is marginally underwater: AZ (11 EVs), FL (29), NC (15), OH (18), or PA (20).
    Although worth noting that Trump is not particularly unpopular in Virginia, so could that go the other way?
    No chance.
    VA is pretty solidly a blue state these days due to the migration of liberal voters to the state for work around DC. NC is a good target for the Democrats too for similar reasons: increasing high-tech employment in places like the Research Triangle is changing the state's demographics to the Democrats' favour.
    Also Charlotte is massively booming, bringing in a lot of people from Chicago and New York.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Gabs3 said:

    rpjs said:

    Alistair said:

    A very handy website, per state trump approval ratings. I think the most important point is how is approval rating is compared to his vote percentage in 2016 (unfortunately not captured on the site).

    https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Interesting, Trump appears to be far enough underwater in IA (6 EVs), MI (16), and WI (10) that the Dems should have little problems flipping them. That would put Trump on 273 so the Dems would only need to flip one more of the states where Trump is marginally underwater: AZ (11 EVs), FL (29), NC (15), OH (18), or PA (20).
    I don't think Iowa will be that easy. Neither will Wisconsin. Pennsylvania will be easier.
    I agree IA may be difficult, but WI is nailed on for the Democrats I think.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Gabs3 said:

    rpjs said:

    eristdoof said:

    kinabalu said:

    Gabs3 said:

    If we imagine the Democrats get a big boost from black turnout, the swing states it would most affect would be Pennsylvania, Michigan and Georgia. With Georgia being more than the other two. So the Dems winning Georgia and losing Wisconsin is very possible.

    I think Florida is very hard to swing. It is a very elderly state and a very Cuban state that will make a socialist on the ticket very dangerous.

    Even my superforecasted Dem landslide does not involve them taking Florida.
    A Dem Landslide would not be able to overturn a 1.2point deficit?
    Looks like the ex-felon refranchisement in FL will stand, at least until November, so that would help the Dems a bit as ex-felons tend to lean Democratic by 2:1.

    ETA: Over 10% of Florida's population was disenfranchised for being ex-felons!
    But ex-felons vote at very low rates. Dems might get a 0.5 pt advantage over it.
    Which could be enough in such a razor-edge state.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Sandpit said:

    Offtopic, but could Coronavirus be what was needed to kick-start international videoconferences?

    Internet guardian organisation ICANN is doing just that next month. They’ve cancelled their physical conference in Mexico and are doing the whole thing remotely.

    http://www.circleid.com/posts/20200219_icann_to_hold_first_ever_remote_public_meeting/

    It wont last. Too useful to have whispered asides in the cloak room.
This discussion has been closed.