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    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    The best way would be to massively reduce class sizes in the state sector. That would mean there was no point in paying for a private education, as that’s its selling point.

    The odds of this happening are zero, of course.

    Let's not be defeatist. I have a dream. I have a dream that our children will one day live in a nation where their prospects are determined not by the size of their parents bank balance but by the quality of their hearts and minds.
    So you want to bring back grammar schools? ;)
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    The best way would be to massively reduce class sizes in the state sector. That would mean there was no point in paying for a private education, as that’s its selling point.

    The odds of this happening are zero, of course.

    Let's not be defeatist. I have a dream. I have a dream that our children will one day live in a nation where their prospects are determined not by the size of their parents bank balance but by the quality of their hearts and minds.
    Then what will be the point of parents accumulating a large bank balance if they cannot use it to the benefit of their offspring? I fear you are fighting against several billion years of evolution.
  • Options
    Incidentally, saw on Twitter the other day that Oxford's thinking of axing Homer from its classics course.

    Cretins.
  • Options

    Incidentally, saw on Twitter the other day that Oxford's thinking of axing Homer from its classics course.

    Cretins.

    D'oh!
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,319
    So long as the SNP are willing to trade support for a Labour government for an indy referendum sometime in the 5-year parliament (which I think both sides would accept if necessary, and the electorate would too), it doesn't matter too much. But if the reported difficulties facing Sturgeon prove serious, then Labour needs to avoid the Tories picking up the pieces.

    I suspect a new Indy referendum would fail, by the way, but having one is not in itself something which strikes most English voters as outrageous.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330

    Incidentally, saw on Twitter the other day that Oxford's thinking of axing Homer from its classics course.

    Cretins.

    D'oh!
    The Simpsons would just not be the same without Homer...
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,349

    Incidentally, saw on Twitter the other day that Oxford's thinking of axing Homer from its classics course.

    Cretins.

    Virgil on the ridiculous...
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    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Scotland deserves better than the SNP.

    Election Slogan?

    Probably not - mentions the other party.

    Besides, Blair used something similar (‘because Britain deserves better’) so Labour will never use it.
    Labour's current slogan, under Corbyn, comes from Blair (and his rewritten Clause 4) and even Boris has said it: For the many, not the few!
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    The best way would be to massively reduce class sizes in the state sector. That would mean there was no point in paying for a private education, as that’s its selling point.

    The odds of this happening are zero, of course.

    Let's not be defeatist. I have a dream. I have a dream that our children will one day live in a nation where their prospects are determined not by the size of their parents bank balance but by the quality of their hearts and minds.
    Then what will be the point of parents accumulating a large bank balance if they cannot use it to the benefit of their offspring? I fear you are fighting against several billion years of evolution.
    First thing amoeba did - put something away for their binary divided selves' education.....
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    matt said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    The best way would be to massively reduce class sizes in the state sector. That would mean there was no point in paying for a private education, as that’s its selling point.

    The odds of this happening are zero, of course.

    Let's not be defeatist. I have a dream. I have a dream that our children will one day live in a nation where their prospects are determined not by the size of their parents bank balance but by the quality of their hearts and minds.
    You’re banning engaged middle class parents then. Or private tutoring for pupils Of state schools (the dirty little secret of a number of well performing state schools near me). Cameras in every home to confirm that children aren’t being encouraged to read other than class books?

    What did you do for your children?

    Or, thinking about it, you’re a performance art project to see if the most cliched statements can be made to sound inspiring?
    You cant do away with Social Capital. You can be middle class and not have two pence to rub together. It costs nothing to read to your child every day.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Nigelb said:

    Incidentally, saw on Twitter the other day that Oxford's thinking of axing Homer from its classics course.

    Cretins.

    Virgil on the ridiculous...
    Nice Troy.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:
    You can’t buy advertising like that.
    Probably worth another 2-3 weeks in the coastal multiplexes.
    It got a big boost after the oscars and is still on 2000 screens - we'll see whether Trump has any impact:

    https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl1258849793/?ref_=bo_tt_gr_1

    In some ways it reminded me of a 1930s screwball comedy.....and then it took a darker turn. No doubt someone will remake ruin it - the social commentary 'breadline grifters hoodwink clueless wealthy' has currency far beyond South Korea.
    A Hollywood remake is reportedly already in the works - almost certainly hideously misconceived.
    Hmm, there's a fair amount of terrible housing on San Francisco with people paying ridiculous rents to sleep in crawl spaces etc...
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,349

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    The best way would be to massively reduce class sizes in the state sector. That would mean there was no point in paying for a private education, as that’s its selling point.

    The odds of this happening are zero, of course.

    Let's not be defeatist. I have a dream. I have a dream that our children will one day live in a nation where their prospects are determined not by the size of their parents bank balance but by the quality of their hearts and minds.
    Then what will be the point of parents accumulating a large bank balance if they cannot use it to the benefit of their offspring? I fear you are fighting against several billion years of evolution.
    Actually, sustained parental attention during the first two or three years of life probably makes more difference to educational outcomes.
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    Incidentally, saw on Twitter the other day that Oxford's thinking of axing Homer from its classics course.

    Cretins.

    I thought it was well established that the work previously attributed the Homer was in fact composed by someone else of the same name?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,349
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Incidentally, saw on Twitter the other day that Oxford's thinking of axing Homer from its classics course.

    Cretins.

    Virgil on the ridiculous...
    Nice Troy.
    Any-ass might say so...
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,514
    edited February 2020

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:


    The major difference being that England is rising in the PISA rankings, and Scotland is falling.
    https://inews.co.uk/news/education/pisa-test-results-2019-rankings-england-education-england-scores-maths-1330524

    That’s not necessarily an indicator of current performance. Those rankings are likely as the result of policy changes ten years ago under Labour, because we don’t get meaningful data on changes until a whole cohort has been through a system.

    Indeed, one of the problems with education is that since the 1980s there has been such constant change it’s difficult to identify the impact of any one event on the achievement of children. But that, in itself, is almost certainly damaging their education.
    Aren't a lot of the PISA improvements in England relative to Scotland demographic in origin? We know that immigrant derived populations outperform on most school measures, and these are much greater share of England pupils relative to Scotland and Wales.

    In other terms, are we not looking at underperformance of white populations, independent of educational policy, just masked by the white population being a lower share in England?

    I am beginning to sound like tim...
    Labour party supporters on pb.com have repeatedly explained to me -- when I queried the abysmal performance of Welsh education -- that it was the full of the Welsh, and not the Labour party.

    Usually, they put forward the semi-racist explanation that you have proposed.
    I do not underestimate the potential of white British pupils, just question the fact that so many do not reach their potential. If I said that such pupils were unteachable or thick, that could be as racist as a number 10 Contractor, but I do not claim that at all. Indeed I believe the opposite.

    Personally, I think that solving the educational underachievement issues of these populations requires a social policy rather than educational policy answer. This is not necessarily a left wing answer.

    I think the disintegration of nuclear families and neglect of Chapel and Kirk is a substantial part of the problem. We know that having two parents at home, and religious observance are major predictors of academic progress.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Incidentally, saw on Twitter the other day that Oxford's thinking of axing Homer from its classics course.

    Cretins.

    I thought it was well established that the work previously attributed the Homer was in fact composed by someone else of the same name?
    Perhaps it was an early example of AI. Really, it was created by a Homering device.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Nigelb said:

    Incidentally, saw on Twitter the other day that Oxford's thinking of axing Homer from its classics course.

    Cretins.

    Virgil on the ridiculous...
    Tacitus have anything to say on the matter?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,284
    edited February 2020

    Incidentally, saw on Twitter the other day that Oxford's thinking of axing Homer from its classics course.

    Cretins.

    I keep on telling you that place is a dump.

    Their rampant Homerphobia is a real problem.

    Edit - In their defence they are thinking of making it optional.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,319
    Yes, that's interesting. I'm professionally interested in any trade deal (from the narrow animal welfare viewpoint) and although we're geared up to campaign against any softening of the line (no chlorinated chicken etc.) we're not hearing much to campaign against yet. I suspect the battleground when it comes will be GM - my guess is that Johnson's dismissal of "mumbo-jumbo" relates to that.
  • Options

    So long as the SNP are willing to trade support for a Labour government for an indy referendum sometime in the 5-year parliament (which I think both sides would accept if necessary, and the electorate would too), it doesn't matter too much. But if the reported difficulties facing Sturgeon prove serious, then Labour needs to avoid the Tories picking up the pieces.

    I suspect a new Indy referendum would fail, by the way, but having one is not in itself something which strikes most English voters as outrageous.

    SNP supporting Labour into government is a bit like the fable of the scorpion and the frog though.

    If the SNP wins an independence referendum but are key partners for Labour to have a majority then what happens next? Labour might be relied upon to permit the referendum but if the scorpion strikes the government drowns.

    As the whole Brexit process has shown over recent years becoming independent requires more than just winning a referendum and if Scotland going independent brings down the government then that's going to be a real dilemma for both the SNP and Labour.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Incidentally, saw on Twitter the other day that Oxford's thinking of axing Homer from its classics course.

    Cretins.

    Virgil on the ridiculous...
    Nice Troy.
    Any-ass might say so...
    Less of the Hectoring, please...
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,349
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Incidentally, saw on Twitter the other day that Oxford's thinking of axing Homer from its classics course.

    Cretins.

    Virgil on the ridiculous...
    Nice Troy.
    Any-ass might say so...
    Less of the Hectoring, please...
    Apologies. it's my Achilles heel.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    What is it then?
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    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    What is it then?
    Gravity is not a force but the consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass.
  • Options
    Mr. Eagles, ah, I shall retract the 'cretins' accusation then.

    They're imbeciles.

    Recently, I was slightly disappointed to read in a generally interesting book on mythology that the Latinised Ajax rather than Aias was used.

    *sighs*
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842
    ydoethur said:

    Genius
    ttps://twitter.com/MattCartoonist/status/1230545039622856705

    He does have an uncanny knack of being able to take two unrelated news stories and combine them into a single cartoon.
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    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Scotland deserves better than the SNP.

    Election Slogan?

    Probably not - mentions the other party.

    Besides, Blair used something similar (‘because Britain deserves better’) so Labour will never use it.
    Labour's current slogan, under Corbyn, comes from Blair (and his rewritten Clause 4) and even Boris has said it: For the many, not the few!
    I thought Labour's slogal under Corbyn was subconsciously because he always thought: For the many, not the Jew!
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    What is it then?
    A bend.
  • Options

    So long as the SNP are willing to trade support for a Labour government for an indy referendum sometime in the 5-year parliament (which I think both sides would accept if necessary, and the electorate would too), it doesn't matter too much. But if the reported difficulties facing Sturgeon prove serious, then Labour needs to avoid the Tories picking up the pieces.

    I suspect a new Indy referendum would fail, by the way, but having one is not in itself something which strikes most English voters as outrageous.

    It’s not the English voters who matter here; it’s the Scottish Labour ones who don’t want the disruption of another referendum and who might switch their vote to the Lib Dems or even Tories to try to prevent it, and those who voted Labour tactically in places like Edinburgh who won’t bother is it gets the same result as voting SNP.
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    Paul Golding, the leader of the fringe far-right group Britain First, has been charged with an offence under the Terrorism Act after refusing to give police access to his phone.

    He was stopped at Heathrow airport in October while returning from a trip to the Russian parliament in Moscow by officers from the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command.

    He refused to give the Pin codes for a number of his electronic devices. Golding, 38, is charged with refusing to comply with a duty under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act.

    A Met spokesman said Golding, of Bexley in south-east London, was charged by postal requisition on Wednesday. He is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 27 February.

    In a statement Golding said he was not a terrorist and described the charges as “an abuse of legislation”. Schedule 7 allows police to interrogate, search and detain anyone for up to six hours at UK ports.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/britain-first-leader-paul-golding-charged-by-anti-terror-police
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    Well, to be fair it's somewhat debateble...
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,349

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    What is it then?
    Gravity is not a force but the consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass.
    Relatively speaking.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    What is it then?
    Gravity is not a force but the consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass.
    Is there a point going beyond Newtonian physics before university, though? It's surely a huge waste of time covering relativity.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    What is it then?
    Gravity is not a force but the consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass.
    It’s still a force. I am not sure GSCE physics is covering tensor algebra.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:


    The major difference being that England is rising in the PISA rankings, and Scotland is falling.
    https://inews.co.uk/news/education/pisa-test-results-2019-rankings-england-education-england-scores-maths-1330524

    That’s not necessarily an indicator of current performance. Those rankings are likely as the result of policy changes ten years ago under Labour, because we don’t get meaningful data on changes until a whole cohort has been through a system.

    Indeed, one of the problems with education is that since the 1980s there has been such constant change it’s difficult to identify the impact of any one event on the achievement of children. But that, in itself, is almost certainly damaging their education.
    Aren't a lot of the PISA improvements in England relative to Scotland demographic in origin? We know that immigrant derived populations outperform on most school measures, and these are much greater share of England pupils relative to Scotland and Wales.

    In other terms, are we not looking at underperformance of white populations, independent of educational policy, just masked by the white population being a lower share in England?

    I am beginning to sound like tim...
    Labour party supporters on pb.com have repeatedly explained to me -- when I queried the abysmal performance of Welsh education -- that it was the full of the Welsh, and not the Labour party.

    Usually, they put forward the semi-racist explanation that you have proposed.
    I do not underestimate the potential of white British pupils, just question the fact that so many do not reach their potential. If I said that such pupils were unteachable or thick, that could be as racist as a number 10 Contractor, but I do not claim that at all. Indeed I believe the opposite.

    Personally, I think that solving the educational underachievement issues of these populations requires a social policy rather than educational policy answer. This is not necessarily a left wing answer.

    I think the disintegration of nuclear families and neglect of Chapel and Kirk is a substantial part of the problem. We know that having two parents at home, and religious observance are major predictors of academic progress.
    I'd like to see some evidence that crass archaic superstitions are mjor predictors of academic progress please.
  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    The correct answer should have been weight (at school level) or that gravity is an illusion caused by the curvature of space by matter (graduate level).
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    That’s not necessarily an indicator of current performance. Those rankings are likely as the result of policy changes ten years ago under Labour, because we don’t get meaningful data on changes until a whole cohort has been through a system.

    Indeed, one of the problems with education is that since the 1980s there has been such constant change it’s difficult to identify the impact of any one event on the achievement of children. But that, in itself, is almost certainly damaging their education.

    Exactly. Find the best way other than banning to get rid of private schools and then stop the meddling. Let cooks cook. Let cobblers cobble. Let tinkers tinker. Let teachers teach.
    I've seen a couple of studies that suggest a strong link between the number of private schools and the performance of state schools - the more private schools there are, the better state schools perform. If those studies are correct, rather than looking to get rid of private schools we should be encouraging more of them.
  • Options

    Mr. Eagles, ah, I shall retract the 'cretins' accusation then.

    They're imbeciles.

    Recently, I was slightly disappointed to read in a generally interesting book on mythology that the Latinised Ajax rather than Aias was used.

    *sighs*

    The issue at Oxford is that there aren't as many students who, like me, can read Latin and Greek, so they are having to update the course.

    It seems unfair to students who cannot read Latin and Greek are being penalised in having to read the Iliad and Aeneid in their original form.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Puns on classical thinkers, and an argument as to what is gravity.

    All before I've settled down to do any work today.

    Only on pb.com.....
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,319
    The first post-debate poll that I'm aware of is in Nevada - usual small sample, but FWIW no very exciting changes:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/nv/nevada_democratic_presidential_caucus-6866.html
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:


    The major difference being that England is rising in the PISA rankings, and Scotland is falling.
    https://inews.co.uk/news/education/pisa-test-results-2019-rankings-england-education-england-scores-maths-1330524

    That’s not necessarily an indicator of current performance. Those rankings are likely as the result of policy changes ten years ago under Labour, because we don’t get meaningful data on changes until a whole cohort has been through a system.

    Indeed, one of the problems with education is that since the 1980s there has been such constant change it’s difficult to identify the impact of any one event on the achievement of children. But that, in itself, is almost certainly damaging their education.
    Aren't a lot of the PISA improvements in England relative to Scotland demographic in origin? We know that immigrant derived populations outperform on most school measures, and these are much greater share of England pupils relative to Scotland and Wales.

    In other terms, are we not looking at underperformance of white populations, independent of educational policy, just masked by the white population being a lower share in England?

    I am beginning to sound like tim...
    Labour party supporters on pb.com have repeatedly explained to me -- when I queried the abysmal performance of Welsh education -- that it was the full of the Welsh, and not the Labour party.

    Usually, they put forward the semi-racist explanation that you have proposed.
    I do not underestimate the potential of white British pupils, just question the fact that so many do not reach their potential. If I said that such pupils were unteachable or thick, that could be as racist as a number 10 Contractor, but I do not claim that at all. Indeed I believe the opposite.

    Personally, I think that solving the educational underachievement issues of these populations requires a social policy rather than educational policy answer. This is not necessarily a left wing answer.

    I think the disintegration of nuclear families and neglect of Chapel and Kirk is a substantial part of the problem. We know that having two parents at home, and religious observance are major predictors of academic progress.
    I'd like to see some evidence that crass archaic superstitions are mjor predictors of academic progress please.
    I’d think it’s probably a second-order effect. Kids who go to church regularly are more likely to live with both parents, and more likely to read books, have a routine etc.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,085
    matt said:

    You’re banning engaged middle class parents then. Or private tutoring for pupils Of state schools (the dirty little secret of a number of well performing state schools near me). Cameras in every home to confirm that children aren’t being encouraged to read other than class books?

    What did you do for your children?

    Or, thinking about it, you’re a performance art project to see if the most cliched statements can be made to sound inspiring?

    Not banning anything. That is not the way. And try as I might I cannot see that a recognition that private schools are harmful engines of inequality leads to a conclusion that parents should not be encouraging their offspring to read good books at home.

    Please try and rise above the infantile when engaging on this important topic. I sense you have it in you.
  • Options
    Here's the stats.

    Classics, read by Boris Johnson and Oscar Wilde, is seen as one of the most elitist subjects and the faculty is under pressure to attract more state school pupils. Classical subjects were taken at A level by only 5,148 teenagers last year and most were at private schools. Ancient Greek A level is thought to have been taken by only about 200 pupils.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Paul Golding, the leader of the fringe far-right group Britain First, has been charged with an offence under the Terrorism Act after refusing to give police access to his phone.

    He was stopped at Heathrow airport in October while returning from a trip to the Russian parliament in Moscow by officers from the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command.

    He refused to give the Pin codes for a number of his electronic devices. Golding, 38, is charged with refusing to comply with a duty under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act.

    A Met spokesman said Golding, of Bexley in south-east London, was charged by postal requisition on Wednesday. He is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 27 February.

    In a statement Golding said he was not a terrorist and described the charges as “an abuse of legislation”. Schedule 7 allows police to interrogate, search and detain anyone for up to six hours at UK ports.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/britain-first-leader-paul-golding-charged-by-anti-terror-police

    Good to see they’ve pinned something on the bastard at last.

    Ah, my coat...
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    The correct answer should have been weight (at school level) or that gravity is an illusion caused by the curvature of space by matter (graduate level).
    Just when I thought I'd got the hang of it, you go and tell me gravity is a Russian aircraft......
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,085

    You cant do away with Social Capital. You can be middle class and not have two pence to rub together. It costs nothing to read to your child every day.

    +1
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:


    The major difference being that England is rising in the PISA rankings, and Scotland is falling.
    https://inews.co.uk/news/education/pisa-test-results-2019-rankings-england-education-england-scores-maths-1330524

    That’s not necessarily an indicator of current performance. Those rankings are likely as the result of policy changes ten years ago under Labour, because we don’t get meaningful data on changes until a whole cohort has been through a system.

    Indeed, one of the problems with education is that since the 1980s there has been such constant change it’s difficult to identify the impact of any one event on the achievement of children. But that, in itself, is almost certainly damaging their education.
    Aren't a lot of the PISA improvements in England relative to Scotland demographic in origin? We know that immigrant derived populations outperform on most school measures, and these are much greater share of England pupils relative to Scotland and Wales.

    In other terms, are we not looking at underperformance of white populations, independent of educational policy, just masked by the white population being a lower share in England?

    I am beginning to sound like tim...
    Labour party supporters on pb.com have repeatedly explained to me -- when I queried the abysmal performance of Welsh education -- that it was the full of the Welsh, and not the Labour party.

    Usually, they put forward the semi-racist explanation that you have proposed.
    I do not underestimate the potential of white British pupils, just question the fact that so many do not reach their potential. If I said that such pupils were unteachable or thick, that could be as racist as a number 10 Contractor, but I do not claim that at all. Indeed I believe the opposite.

    Personally, I think that solving the educational underachievement issues of these populations requires a social policy rather than educational policy answer. This is not necessarily a left wing answer.

    I think the disintegration of nuclear families and neglect of Chapel and Kirk is a substantial part of the problem. We know that having two parents at home, and religious observance are major predictors of academic progress.
    I'd like to see some evidence that crass archaic superstitions are mjor predictors of academic progress please.
    I’d think it’s probably a second-order effect. Kids who go to church regularly are more likely to live with both parents, and more likely to read books, have a routine etc.
    Indeed, in which case its incidental not an effect.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    My son will be sitting his highers in approximately 2 months. From close hand experience the problems are deep rooted and not capable of simple solutions.
    I suggest you read the report before they redact the "Official - Sensitive" part.
    I've read it. The first part is just embarrassing, relentlessly upbeat and positive. The comments on the individual subjects in the second half show a much greater degree of realism.
    As a matter of interest, is there much interest in Scotland in switching to the IB, or even A levels?

    Though at Fox jrs old school the IB proved unpopular, as harder to get the scores required for Uni entry.
    Not really. St Leonards in St Andrews does the IB, not really of anywhere else doing so. A few of the posher private schools offer A levels but not many. My son's school looked at it when the changes to the Highers came in. So far they have not thought it worth changing. What is happening is that there is far more focus on the Advanced Highers as A level equivalents. That wasn't really a thing when I was at school.
  • Options

    Puns on classical thinkers, and an argument as to what is gravity.

    All before I've settled down to do any work today.

    Only on pb.com.....

    I did think about reading the classics at university but then I couldn't see what job I could get after it, other than an academic.

    If I became an academic, I'd have been one half of History Today.

    Ditto why I didn't read physics.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Mr. Eagles, ah, I shall retract the 'cretins' accusation then.

    They're imbeciles.

    Recently, I was slightly disappointed to read in a generally interesting book on mythology that the Latinised Ajax rather than Aias was used.

    *sighs*

    The issue at Oxford is that there aren't as many students who, like me, can read Latin and Greek, so they are having to update the course.

    It seems unfair to students who cannot read Latin and Greek are being penalised in having to read the Iliad and Aeneid in their original form.
    So they should learn to read Latin and Greek. Isn't that rather the point? I mean, everybody in East Africa speaks Swahili, perfectly, *as a second language*, and as someone who knows ancient Greek and has tried to learn Swahili I can tell you that Swahili is much, much harder.

    And translations of Homer are just never very good.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    The correct answer should have been weight (at school level) or that gravity is an illusion caused by the curvature of space by matter (graduate level).
    A GCSE student should not lose a mark for saying gravity is a force.
  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    What is it then?
    Gravity is not a force but the consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass.
    It’s still a force. I am not sure GSCE physics is covering tensor algebra.
    Simple Algebra is hard enough for some who find rearranging F=ma to get a given F and m a challenge.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Puns on classical thinkers, and an argument as to what is gravity.

    All before I've settled down to do any work today.

    Only on pb.com.....

    I did think about reading the classics at university but then I couldn't see what job I could get after it, other than an academic.

    If I became an academic, I'd have been one half of History Today.

    Ditto why I didn't read physics.
    Of course, you could have become PM. After a particularly colourful journey along the way.
  • Options

    Here's the stats.

    Classics, read by Boris Johnson and Oscar Wilde, is seen as one of the most elitist subjects and the faculty is under pressure to attract more state school pupils. Classical subjects were taken at A level by only 5,148 teenagers last year and most were at private schools. Ancient Greek A level is thought to have been taken by only about 200 pupils.

    Rachel Johnson made that point in When Boris Met Dave. Learn Greek and you can get into Oxford.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842

    Paul Golding, the leader of the fringe far-right group Britain First, has been charged with an offence under the Terrorism Act after refusing to give police access to his phone.

    He was stopped at Heathrow airport in October while returning from a trip to the Russian parliament in Moscow by officers from the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command.

    He refused to give the Pin codes for a number of his electronic devices. Golding, 38, is charged with refusing to comply with a duty under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act.

    A Met spokesman said Golding, of Bexley in south-east London, was charged by postal requisition on Wednesday. He is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 27 February.

    In a statement Golding said he was not a terrorist and described the charges as “an abuse of legislation”. Schedule 7 allows police to interrogate, search and detain anyone for up to six hours at UK ports.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/britain-first-leader-paul-golding-charged-by-anti-terror-police

    Are they trying to make a martyr of him?

    Turn up at Heathrow, then charge him with terrorism for not unlocking his phone for a border search.

    How many people think that not giving your passwords to police should be a terrorist offence?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Puns on classical thinkers, and an argument as to what is gravity.

    All before I've settled down to do any work today.

    Only on pb.com.....

    I did think about reading the classics at university but then I couldn't see what job I could get after it, other than an academic.

    If I became an academic, I'd have been one half of History Today.

    Ditto why I didn't read physics.
    Oxford seems to be full of one half of History Today.

    I can see why you didn't feel the need to swell the glut.

    Oxford is also full of 60's concrete car parks that smell of industrial-strength piss.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    The correct answer should have been weight (at school level) or that gravity is an illusion caused by the curvature of space by matter (graduate level).
    A GCSE student should not lose a mark for saying gravity is a force.
    Especially since they teach Newtonian physics until that level, which describes gravity as a force which pulls objects towards each other, at least that's what I was taught all those years ago.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Paul Golding, the leader of the fringe far-right group Britain First, has been charged with an offence under the Terrorism Act after refusing to give police access to his phone.

    He was stopped at Heathrow airport in October while returning from a trip to the Russian parliament in Moscow by officers from the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command.

    He refused to give the Pin codes for a number of his electronic devices. Golding, 38, is charged with refusing to comply with a duty under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act.

    A Met spokesman said Golding, of Bexley in south-east London, was charged by postal requisition on Wednesday. He is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 27 February.

    In a statement Golding said he was not a terrorist and described the charges as “an abuse of legislation”. Schedule 7 allows police to interrogate, search and detain anyone for up to six hours at UK ports.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/britain-first-leader-paul-golding-charged-by-anti-terror-police

    Are they trying to make a martyr of him?

    Turn up at Heathrow, then charge him with terrorism for not unlocking his phone for a border search.

    How many people think that not giving your passwords to police should be a terrorist offence?
    It only should if there's been a court order giving a warrant to search the phone - and that should require sufficient evidence.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    edited February 2020
    Sandpit said:

    Paul Golding, the leader of the fringe far-right group Britain First, has been charged with an offence under the Terrorism Act after refusing to give police access to his phone.

    He was stopped at Heathrow airport in October while returning from a trip to the Russian parliament in Moscow by officers from the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command.

    He refused to give the Pin codes for a number of his electronic devices. Golding, 38, is charged with refusing to comply with a duty under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act.

    A Met spokesman said Golding, of Bexley in south-east London, was charged by postal requisition on Wednesday. He is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 27 February.

    In a statement Golding said he was not a terrorist and described the charges as “an abuse of legislation”. Schedule 7 allows police to interrogate, search and detain anyone for up to six hours at UK ports.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/britain-first-leader-paul-golding-charged-by-anti-terror-police

    Are they trying to make a martyr of him?

    Turn up at Heathrow, then charge him with terrorism for not unlocking his phone for a border search.

    How many people think that not giving your passwords to police should be a terrorist offence?
    Yes, unless there is some specific intelligence or evidence to hold him and require access to his phone I don't see how any judge will allow this to proceed. The full story may not be reported though, and the police might have something they don't want to reveal.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    The correct answer should have been weight (at school level) or that gravity is an illusion caused by the curvature of space by matter (graduate level).
    A GCSE student should not lose a mark for saying gravity is a force.
    Especially since they teach Newtonian physics until that level, which describes gravity as a force which pulls objects towards each other, at least that's what I was taught all those years ago.
    CERN and Nature still describe gravity as a force. That’s good enough for me.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,349

    Puns on classical thinkers, and an argument as to what is gravity.

    All before I've settled down to do any work today.

    Only on pb.com.....

    I did think about reading the classics at university but then I couldn't see what job I could get after it, other than an academic.

    If I became an academic, I'd have been one half of History Today.

    Ditto why I didn't read physics.
    Oxford seems to be full of one half of History Today.

    I can see why you didn't feel the need to swell the glut.

    Oxford is also full of 60's concrete car parks that smell of industrial-strength piss.
    St. Catz resents that description.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited February 2020
    On topic, Kevin Meagher is even more pessimistic. He thinks the problem is not that there’s no strategy to win back Scotland, but there seems a concerted push by the leadership contenders to forfeit the whole of non-metropolitan England as well;

    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2020/02/20/labours-leadership-contest-is-a-disaster/

    Edit - and the Middlesbrough collapse last night suggests he may be right about that. Clearly Labour are still struggling if not imploding in their former heartlands.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,349
    edited February 2020
    Senate Democrats urge National Security Council to recruit pandemic expert for COVID-19 response
    https://www.biocentury.com/article/304477
    The absence of pandemic or global health expertise at the White House National Security Council and on the Trump administration's Coronavirus Task Force is prompting Senate Democrats to raise concerns about the quality of advice provided to President Donald Trump, as well as the potential for political priorities to outweigh public health needs.

    Twenty-nine Democratic senators signed a letter sent Feb. 13 urging Robert O’Brien, U.S. National Security Adviser, to “appoint a qualified, dedicated, senior global health security expert to coordinate the United States’ global health security work.”

    The NSC doesn’t have any staff with experience directly relevant to public health emergencies like the COVID-19 outbreak.

    The Trump administration has removed public health experts from the NSC and disbanded a unit established by President Barack Obama that was dedicated to pandemic preparedness and response.


    Luciana Borio resigned as the NSC’s director for medical and biodefense preparedness policy in May 2018. The position has remained vacant....
  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    The correct answer should have been weight (at school level) or that gravity is an illusion caused by the curvature of space by matter (graduate level).
    A GCSE student should not lose a mark for saying gravity is a force.
    Depends on the context. If they are asked to label the forces on a diagram then the best answer is weight or even “the force of gravity”. In a mock exam I would probably penalise gravity in that context.

    Gravity is the phenomenon that produces weight. Friction and air resistance are ultimately produced by the electro-magnetic force, but you can’t call them electro-magnetic in a GCSE.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842
    edited February 2020

    Sandpit said:

    Paul Golding, the leader of the fringe far-right group Britain First, has been charged with an offence under the Terrorism Act after refusing to give police access to his phone.

    He was stopped at Heathrow airport in October while returning from a trip to the Russian parliament in Moscow by officers from the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command.

    He refused to give the Pin codes for a number of his electronic devices. Golding, 38, is charged with refusing to comply with a duty under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act.

    A Met spokesman said Golding, of Bexley in south-east London, was charged by postal requisition on Wednesday. He is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 27 February.

    In a statement Golding said he was not a terrorist and described the charges as “an abuse of legislation”. Schedule 7 allows police to interrogate, search and detain anyone for up to six hours at UK ports.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/britain-first-leader-paul-golding-charged-by-anti-terror-police

    Are they trying to make a martyr of him?

    Turn up at Heathrow, then charge him with terrorism for not unlocking his phone for a border search.

    How many people think that not giving your passwords to police should be a terrorist offence?
    It only should if there's been a court order giving a warrant to search the phone - and that should require sufficient evidence.
    That’ll be why they’ve done it at the border. No court order required there.

    I’m sure the guy is an idiot, but being an idiot isn’t illegal.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,085

    Then what will be the point of parents accumulating a large bank balance if they cannot use it to the benefit of their offspring? I fear you are fighting against several billion years of evolution.

    They can and they will. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying that the purchasing of educational privilege should be discouraged. Government can act against the grain of a certain aspect of human nature if to do so is deemed a net positive for society. There are many examples of this. And it's hardly the Impossible Dream to take parental bank balance out of schooling. Plenty of countries do not have the predilection for private schools that we have. It's not even that radical a suggestion. It's quite mild. It says a lot about our odd attitude to educational privilege in this country that any "threat" to it causes such horror.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125

    I realise I am being contrarian over “magic” words. The reason they are used is surely that exam boards are finding it harder to persuade experienced teacher to mark their exams and so the mark schemes have to be as clear-cut as possible to allow non-specialists to do it with minimal supervision.

    Yes, that is it exactly. It is designed to achieve consistency of marking. But the point of exams is not to show knowledge of the marking schedule but knowledge of the subject. In English, for example, if you do not narrate the key words in the question in your answer you fail. Whether you have understood it or not. Whether you have given a correct answer or not. It's just daft.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578

    So long as the SNP are willing to trade support for a Labour government for an indy referendum sometime in the 5-year parliament (which I think both sides would accept if necessary, and the electorate would too), it doesn't matter too much. But if the reported difficulties facing Sturgeon prove serious, then Labour needs to avoid the Tories picking up the pieces.

    I suspect a new Indy referendum would fail, by the way, but having one is not in itself something which strikes most English voters as outrageous.

    I agree with Nick.

    Labour don't need to win in Scotland. We need the Tories to lose in Scotland. If they hadn't gained seats in 2017 Jezza could have been PM.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    The correct answer should have been weight (at school level) or that gravity is an illusion caused by the curvature of space by matter (graduate level).
    A GCSE student should not lose a mark for saying gravity is a force.
    Especially since they teach Newtonian physics until that level, which describes gravity as a force which pulls objects towards each other, at least that's what I was taught all those years ago.
    CERN and Nature still describe gravity as a force. That’s good enough for me.
    Well, half of the things published in Nature turn out wrong in the end. :)
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Paul Golding, the leader of the fringe far-right group Britain First, has been charged with an offence under the Terrorism Act after refusing to give police access to his phone.

    He was stopped at Heathrow airport in October while returning from a trip to the Russian parliament in Moscow by officers from the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command.

    He refused to give the Pin codes for a number of his electronic devices. Golding, 38, is charged with refusing to comply with a duty under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act.

    A Met spokesman said Golding, of Bexley in south-east London, was charged by postal requisition on Wednesday. He is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 27 February.

    In a statement Golding said he was not a terrorist and described the charges as “an abuse of legislation”. Schedule 7 allows police to interrogate, search and detain anyone for up to six hours at UK ports.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/britain-first-leader-paul-golding-charged-by-anti-terror-police

    Are they trying to make a martyr of him?

    Turn up at Heathrow, then charge him with terrorism for not unlocking his phone for a border search.

    How many people think that not giving your passwords to police should be a terrorist offence?
    It only should if there's been a court order giving a warrant to search the phone - and that should require sufficient evidence.
    That’ll be why they’ve done it at the border. No court order required there.

    I’m sure the guy is an idiot, but being an idiot isn’t illegal.
    Indeed, but IMHO the law is an ass there, a court order should be required for your phone even at the border, at least for British citizens.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Sandpit said:

    Paul Golding, the leader of the fringe far-right group Britain First, has been charged with an offence under the Terrorism Act after refusing to give police access to his phone.

    He was stopped at Heathrow airport in October while returning from a trip to the Russian parliament in Moscow by officers from the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command.

    He refused to give the Pin codes for a number of his electronic devices. Golding, 38, is charged with refusing to comply with a duty under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act.

    A Met spokesman said Golding, of Bexley in south-east London, was charged by postal requisition on Wednesday. He is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 27 February.

    In a statement Golding said he was not a terrorist and described the charges as “an abuse of legislation”. Schedule 7 allows police to interrogate, search and detain anyone for up to six hours at UK ports.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/britain-first-leader-paul-golding-charged-by-anti-terror-police

    Are they trying to make a martyr of him?

    Turn up at Heathrow, then charge him with terrorism for not unlocking his phone for a border search.

    How many people think that not giving your passwords to police should be a terrorist offence?
    It only should if there's been a court order giving a warrant to search the phone - and that should require sufficient evidence.
    Of course, that doesn’t bother Dominic Cummings:

    https://www.ft.com/content/bd453b20-cb13-11e9-a1f4-3669401ba76f
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Paul Golding, the leader of the fringe far-right group Britain First, has been charged with an offence under the Terrorism Act after refusing to give police access to his phone.

    He was stopped at Heathrow airport in October while returning from a trip to the Russian parliament in Moscow by officers from the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command.

    He refused to give the Pin codes for a number of his electronic devices. Golding, 38, is charged with refusing to comply with a duty under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act.

    A Met spokesman said Golding, of Bexley in south-east London, was charged by postal requisition on Wednesday. He is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 27 February.

    In a statement Golding said he was not a terrorist and described the charges as “an abuse of legislation”. Schedule 7 allows police to interrogate, search and detain anyone for up to six hours at UK ports.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/britain-first-leader-paul-golding-charged-by-anti-terror-police

    Are they trying to make a martyr of him?

    Turn up at Heathrow, then charge him with terrorism for not unlocking his phone for a border search.

    How many people think that not giving your passwords to police should be a terrorist offence?
    Enough MPs to pass the act...
  • Options
    Two little things for Sir Keir to think about.
    1) by the next general election Scotland is likely to have 52 MPs instead of the current 59 in a parliament with 600 MPs rather than 650 MPs.
    2) as things stand at present, SLAB is likely to go backwards at the Holyrood election next year. They are frankly seen as irrelevant by most in what is becoming an SNP (Independence) v SCon (Unionist) battle with pockets of SLibs not unlike their situation from 1945-1987 and a handful of Greens elected from the Guardian reading politically correct brigade and student communities.

    However let's see if Nicola Sturgeon survives the Alex Salmond trial. It could get very very dirty for the SNP.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    Gravity? Something to do with Eminem, isn't it?
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    Then what will be the point of parents accumulating a large bank balance if they cannot use it to the benefit of their offspring? I fear you are fighting against several billion years of evolution.

    They can and they will. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying that the purchasing of educational privilege should be discouraged. Government can act against the grain of a certain aspect of human nature if to do so is deemed a net positive for society. There are many examples of this. And it's hardly the Impossible Dream to take parental bank balance out of schooling. Plenty of countries do not have the predilection for private schools that we have. It's not even that radical a suggestion. It's quite mild. It says a lot about our odd attitude to educational privilege in this country that any "threat" to it causes such horror.
    Because it is horrific to try and ban improving education.

    You should be trying to tackle those who neglect education, not those who want to improve it.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Two little things for Sir Keir to think about.
    1) by the next general election Scotland is likely to have 52 MPs instead of the current 59 in a parliament with 600 MPs rather than 650 MPs.
    2) as things stand at present, SLAB is likely to go backwards at the Holyrood election next year. They are frankly seen as irrelevant by most in what is becoming an SNP (Independence) v SCon (Unionist) battle with pockets of SLibs not unlike their situation from 1945-1987 and a handful of Greens elected from the Guardian reading politically correct brigade and student communities.

    However let's see if Nicola Sturgeon survives the Alex Salmond trial. It could get very very dirty for the SNP.

    I think the reduction of the number of MPs has been shelved, although new boundaries may adjust the numbers a little bit.
  • Options

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:


    I think the disintegration of nuclear families and neglect of Chapel and Kirk is a substantial part of the problem. We know that having two parents at home, and religious observance are major predictors of academic progress.

    I'd like to see some evidence that crass archaic superstitions are mjor predictors of academic progress please.
    I’d think it’s probably a second-order effect. Kids who go to church regularly are more likely to live with both parents, and more likely to read books, have a routine etc.
    Indeed, in which case its incidental not an effect.
    Yes and no, since there is a fair amount of reading involved in most religious worship, and the stories are a sort of English Literature (indeed, many American universities offer courses (modules) in the bible as literature).
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,085
    isam said:

    Left wingers are keen to be heard saying they want the next generation to have the same advantages they had, so maybe Sir Keir will open Grammar schools in poor areas, or increase the state funded places in private schools

    Better than nothing but that is equality lite. Bit of fizz but does not do the biz.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    Two little things for Sir Keir to think about.
    1) by the next general election Scotland is likely to have 52 MPs instead of the current 59 in a parliament with 600 MPs rather than 650 MPs.
    2) as things stand at present, SLAB is likely to go backwards at the Holyrood election next year. They are frankly seen as irrelevant by most in what is becoming an SNP (Independence) v SCon (Unionist) battle with pockets of SLibs not unlike their situation from 1945-1987 and a handful of Greens elected from the Guardian reading politically correct brigade and student communities.

    However let's see if Nicola Sturgeon survives the Alex Salmond trial. It could get very very dirty for the SNP.

    I think the reduction of the number of MPs has been shelved, although new boundaries may adjust the numbers a little bit.
    The law says any new boundaries need 600 MPs. Unless a new Act of Parliament is put through - and relatively quickly, it will be a case of either accepting the reduction or keeping the old boundaries. The latter would be bonkers, but I've not seen any movement either way yet.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    kinabalu said:

    Then what will be the point of parents accumulating a large bank balance if they cannot use it to the benefit of their offspring? I fear you are fighting against several billion years of evolution.

    They can and they will. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying that the purchasing of educational privilege should be discouraged. Government can act against the grain of a certain aspect of human nature if to do so is deemed a net positive for society. There are many examples of this. And it's hardly the Impossible Dream to take parental bank balance out of schooling. Plenty of countries do not have the predilection for private schools that we have. It's not even that radical a suggestion. It's quite mild. It says a lot about our odd attitude to educational privilege in this country that any "threat" to it causes such horror.
    It always amused me (not getting at you here, btw) that New Labour used to make that point and suggest France as a classic example.

    This despite the fact that France has twice as many children in private education as the UK, and still has what amounts to an assisted places scheme - largely because French state education is absolutely shit.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Paul Golding, the leader of the fringe far-right group Britain First, has been charged with an offence under the Terrorism Act after refusing to give police access to his phone.

    He was stopped at Heathrow airport in October while returning from a trip to the Russian parliament in Moscow by officers from the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command.

    He refused to give the Pin codes for a number of his electronic devices. Golding, 38, is charged with refusing to comply with a duty under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act.

    A Met spokesman said Golding, of Bexley in south-east London, was charged by postal requisition on Wednesday. He is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 27 February.

    In a statement Golding said he was not a terrorist and described the charges as “an abuse of legislation”. Schedule 7 allows police to interrogate, search and detain anyone for up to six hours at UK ports.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/britain-first-leader-paul-golding-charged-by-anti-terror-police

    Are they trying to make a martyr of him?

    Turn up at Heathrow, then charge him with terrorism for not unlocking his phone for a border search.

    How many people think that not giving your passwords to police should be a terrorist offence?
    The same people who want de facto internment?
  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    The correct answer should have been weight (at school level) or that gravity is an illusion caused by the curvature of space by matter (graduate level).
    A GCSE student should not lose a mark for saying gravity is a force.
    Especially since they teach Newtonian physics until that level, which describes gravity as a force which pulls objects towards each other, at least that's what I was taught all those years ago.
    CERN and Nature still describe gravity as a force. That’s good enough for me.
    https://xkcd.com/1489/

    Check the alt-text...
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830



    Indeed, in which case its incidental not an effect.

    Wrong. If a causes b which causes c, a causes c. And indeed if a causes b and a also causes c, the relationship is still (indirectly) causal, not incidental.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    Scottish Labour need independence to stop being the most important issue, either because most Scots accept the Union or Scotland moves definitively towards independence. As neither seems likely to happen in the immediate term, Labour will continue to struggle.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,077
    When I went to hear Keir talk the other week he spoke about this exact subject. I wasn’t very enamored by it, because there was no “how”, just “must”.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,349

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    My son lost a mark on his Physics mock for claiming gravity was a force. Unless the subject has moved on dramatically, that’s just plain wrong.

    The correct answer should have been weight (at school level) or that gravity is an illusion caused by the curvature of space by matter (graduate level).
    A GCSE student should not lose a mark for saying gravity is a force.
    Depends on the context. If they are asked to label the forces on a diagram then the best answer is weight or even “the force of gravity”. In a mock exam I would probably penalise gravity in that context.

    Gravity is the phenomenon that produces weight. Friction and air resistance are ultimately produced by the electro-magnetic force, but you can’t call them electro-magnetic in a GCSE.
    Context is surely the point.
    The objection to magic words is the credit given for their context free use, isn't it ?
  • Options

    Puns on classical thinkers, and an argument as to what is gravity.

    All before I've settled down to do any work today.

    Only on pb.com.....

    I did think about reading the classics at university but then I couldn't see what job I could get after it, other than an academic.

    If I became an academic, I'd have been one half of History Today.

    Ditto why I didn't read physics.
    Oxford seems to be full of one half of History Today.

    I can see why you didn't feel the need to swell the glut.

    Oxford is also full of 60's concrete car parks that smell of industrial-strength piss.
    I recently stayed in Oxford, even the hotel I stayed in was a former prison, says it all about the place.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,085

    I've seen a couple of studies that suggest a strong link between the number of private schools and the performance of state schools - the more private schools there are, the better state schools perform. If those studies are correct, rather than looking to get rid of private schools we should be encouraging more of them.

    Open mind but doubt whether that link is sound. Actually, I would support EVERY school being private. So long as the fees are the same for each one and are exactly equal to the value of a voucher that every parent in the land is given to spend on the schooling of each of their children. Perfect and true competition. Level playing field.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,349
    The current zeitgeist ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/feb/21/the-orielles-the-hotly-tipped-band-leaving-halifax-for-the-stars
    ...Esme points to the group’s “massive anxiety about the climate crisis”, and the idea of escape from that at a time when “people are so existentially in their own minds because of how shit society is. People think you have to be shouting about politics explicitly, but I think every single song on this album has a political message embedded in it.”

    The band tease cryptic possible interpretations as to what Disco Volador actually means – a fictional galactic nightspot? An Italian frisbee? The feeling of flying during a particularly vigorous night out? Certainly, Esmé became fascinated by “the phenomenological sense of being able to experience the emotions you get from dancing. I always say if I could dance every day, if everyone could, it would be amazing.”

    The group have been heavily shaped by dance culture. Carlyle-Wade says that covering Korean DJ Peggy Gou’s Itgehane was “highly educational”, their single Sugar Tastes Like Salt was remixed by the late Andrew Weatherall, while both Hand-Halford sisters are DJs in their adopted city of Manchester. This bleeds into an album that is sequenced much like a DJ set. “There’s a creation and dissipation of tension throughout the whole thing,” says Esmé...


    Bonus points for being called Esmé (parents possibly Daniel Handler fans ?), and having the Guardian spell it differently in the space of three paragraphs....
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    FF43 said:

    Scottish Labour need independence to stop being the most important issue, either because most Scots accept the Union or Scotland moves definitively towards independence. As neither seems likely to happen in the immediate term, Labour will continue to struggle.

    Too little, too late.

    Even if independence ceases to be an issue then the SNP have cornered the market on the "Not Tory, left wing, standing up for Scotland" vote.

    So what do Scottish Labour stand for? Even if independence ceases to be an issue what is the Scottish Labour Parties USP? Not many votes available in "Not Tory, left wing, don't want to stand up for Scotland".
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,514
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:


    The major difference being that England is rising in the PISA rankings, and Scotland is falling.
    https://inews.co.uk/news/education/pisa-test-results-2019-rankings-england-education-england-scores-maths-1330524

    That’s not necessarily an indicator of current performance. Those rankings are likely as the result of policy changes ten years ago under Labour, because we don’t get meaningful data on changes until a whole cohort has been through a system.

    Indeed, one of the problems with education is that since the 1980s there has been such constant change it’s difficult to identify the impact of any one event on the achievement of children. But that, in itself, is almost certainly damaging their education.
    Aren't a lot of the PISA improvements in England relative to Scotland demographic in origin? We know that immigrant derived populations outperform on most school measures, and these are much greater share of England pupils relative to Scotland and Wales.

    In other terms, are we not looking at underperformance of white populations, independent of educational policy, just masked by the white population being a lower share in England?

    I am beginning to sound like tim...
    Labour party supporters on pb.com have repeatedly explained to me -- when I queried the abysmal performance of Welsh education -- that it was the full of the Welsh, and not the Labour party.

    Usually, they put forward the semi-racist explanation that you have proposed.
    I do not underestimate the potential of white British pupils, just question the fact that so many do not reach their potential. If I said that such pupils were unteachable or thick, that could be as racist as a number 10 Contractor, but I do not claim that at all. Indeed I believe the opposite.

    Personally, I think that solving .
    I'd like to see some evidence that crass archaic superstitions are mjor predictors of academic progress please.
    I’d think it’s probably a second-order effect. Kids who go to church regularly are more likely to live with both parents, and more likely to read books, have a routine etc.
    I expect so.

    Traditional nuclear families are not perfect, and I accept can be damaging in other ways, but are definitely a significant educational and social advantage to children.

    I would also argue that the overuse of videogames and widespread use of cannabis amongst underachieving pupils are causual too.

    We cannot economically become Singapore, without replicating a good deal of their societal structure in terms of valuing education, strong social discipline and work ethic.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Paul Golding, the leader of the fringe far-right group Britain First, has been charged with an offence under the Terrorism Act after refusing to give police access to his phone.

    He was stopped at Heathrow airport in October while returning from a trip to the Russian parliament in Moscow by officers from the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command.

    He refused to give the Pin codes for a number of his electronic devices. Golding, 38, is charged with refusing to comply with a duty under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act.

    A Met spokesman said Golding, of Bexley in south-east London, was charged by postal requisition on Wednesday. He is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 27 February.

    In a statement Golding said he was not a terrorist and described the charges as “an abuse of legislation”. Schedule 7 allows police to interrogate, search and detain anyone for up to six hours at UK ports.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/britain-first-leader-paul-golding-charged-by-anti-terror-police

    Are they trying to make a martyr of him?

    Turn up at Heathrow, then charge him with terrorism for not unlocking his phone for a border search.

    How many people think that not giving your passwords to police should be a terrorist offence?
    It only should if there's been a court order giving a warrant to search the phone - and that should require sufficient evidence.
    That’ll be why they’ve done it at the border. No court order required there.

    I’m sure the guy is an idiot, but being an idiot isn’t illegal.
    Indeed, but IMHO the law is an ass there, a court order should be required for your phone even at the border, at least for British citizens.
    Agreed. I’m sure the police would find it useful to know what Britain First are up to, but that doesn’t justify this heavy-handed a response in a free country. They’re an unpleasant and undesirable group, but the public don’t want the UK to be a police state.

    They got Tommy Robinson for a clear-cut contempt of court, this just smacks of trying to short-cut old-fashioned police work under the guise of terrorism.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,085

    So you want to bring back grammar schools? ;)

    Oh yes. But not with a "second rate modern" sector running alongside which labels kids as inferior based on an exam at age 11.

    No, that will not do. Grammar schools for all who wish to attend one, is what we want. More the merrier.
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    kinabalu said:

    I've seen a couple of studies that suggest a strong link between the number of private schools and the performance of state schools - the more private schools there are, the better state schools perform. If those studies are correct, rather than looking to get rid of private schools we should be encouraging more of them.

    Open mind but doubt whether that link is sound. Actually, I would support EVERY school being private. So long as the fees are the same for each one and are exactly equal to the value of a voucher that every parent in the land is given to spend on the schooling of each of their children. Perfect and true competition. Level playing field.
    There's an argument to be made for that, but what next?

    Would you ban parents buying books to read them to their children? Or for their children to read themselves?
    Would you ban extracurricular learning? Would you ban science camps etc?
    Would you ban paying for tutors?
    Would you ban parents from taking children to museums?

    And how would you enforce all that? Its bullshit, people who value education find a way to help their kids - and we should be encouraging that not condemning it!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,349
    edited February 2020
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:


    The major difference being that England is rising in the PISA rankings, and Scotland is falling.
    https://inews.co.uk/news/education/pisa-test-results-2019-rankings-england-education-england-scores-maths-1330524

    That’s not necessarily an indicator of current performance. Those rankings are likely as the result of policy changes ten years ago under Labour, because we don’t get meaningful data on changes until a whole cohort has been through a system.

    Indeed, one of the problems with education is that since the 1980s there has been such constant change it’s difficult to identify the impact of any one event on the achievement of children. But that, in itself, is almost certainly damaging their education.
    I am beginning to sound like tim...
    Labour party supporters on pb.com have repeatedly explained to me -- when I queried the abysmal performance of Welsh education -- that it was the full of the Welsh, and not the Labour party.

    Usually, they put forward the semi-racist explanation that you have proposed.
    I do not underestimate the potential of white British pupils, just question the fact that so many do not reach their potential. If I said that such pupils were unteachable or thick, that could be as racist as a number 10 Contractor, but I do not claim that at all. Indeed I believe the opposite.

    Personally, I think that solving .
    I'd like to see some evidence that crass archaic superstitions are mjor predictors of academic progress please.
    I’d think it’s probably a second-order effect. Kids who go to church regularly are more likely to live with both parents, and more likely to read books, have a routine etc.
    I expect so.

    Traditional nuclear families are not perfect, and I accept can be damaging in other ways, but are definitely a significant educational and social advantage to children.

    I would also argue that the overuse of videogames and widespread use of cannabis amongst underachieving pupils are causual too.

    We cannot economically become Singapore, without replicating a good deal of their societal structure in terms of valuing education, strong social discipline and work ethic.
    The nuclear family is not traditional at all, but a relatively recent innovation. And many of the Asian societies we hold up as exemplars retain the extended family structure.
    (But I agree entirely with your point about the importance of culture.)
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842
    edited February 2020

    Puns on classical thinkers, and an argument as to what is gravity.

    All before I've settled down to do any work today.

    Only on pb.com.....

    I did think about reading the classics at university but then I couldn't see what job I could get after it, other than an academic.

    If I became an academic, I'd have been one half of History Today.

    Ditto why I didn't read physics.
    Oxford seems to be full of one half of History Today.

    I can see why you didn't feel the need to swell the glut.

    Oxford is also full of 60's concrete car parks that smell of industrial-strength piss.
    I recently stayed in Oxford, even the hotel I stayed in was a former prison, says it all about the place.
    My parents stayed in that place once, quite the funky hotel concept - although the rooms are a lot bigger and more comfortable now than they used to be!
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Paul Golding, the leader of the fringe far-right group Britain First, has been charged with an offence under the Terrorism Act after refusing to give police access to his phone.

    He was stopped at Heathrow airport in October while returning from a trip to the Russian parliament in Moscow by officers from the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command.

    He refused to give the Pin codes for a number of his electronic devices. Golding, 38, is charged with refusing to comply with a duty under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act.

    A Met spokesman said Golding, of Bexley in south-east London, was charged by postal requisition on Wednesday. He is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 27 February.

    In a statement Golding said he was not a terrorist and described the charges as “an abuse of legislation”. Schedule 7 allows police to interrogate, search and detain anyone for up to six hours at UK ports.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/britain-first-leader-paul-golding-charged-by-anti-terror-police

    Are they trying to make a martyr of him?

    Turn up at Heathrow, then charge him with terrorism for not unlocking his phone for a border search.

    How many people think that not giving your passwords to police should be a terrorist offence?
    It only should if there's been a court order giving a warrant to search the phone - and that should require sufficient evidence.
    That’ll be why they’ve done it at the border. No court order required there.

    I’m sure the guy is an idiot, but being an idiot isn’t illegal.
    Indeed, but IMHO the law is an ass there, a court order should be required for your phone even at the border, at least for British citizens.
    Agreed. I’m sure the police would find it useful to know what Britain First are up to, but that doesn’t justify this heavy-handed a response in a free country. They’re an unpleasant and undesirable group, but the public don’t want the UK to be a police state.

    They got Tommy Robinson for a clear-cut contempt of court, this just smacks of trying to short-cut old-fashioned police work under the guise of terrorism.
    It's a bit like arresting someone for resisting arrest.
This discussion has been closed.