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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited February 2020

    eek said:

    I don't know why Boris hates courts - look at the problem they've just resolved for him

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1232972382287081472

    China can build a hospital in 6 days. We cant decide where to build a runway in over 6000 days and counting. Wonder which country will do better over the next century......
    China doesn't have that pesky problem of courts ruling against these things.

    It is politically very good for Boris, but for the UK bad news. We need airport expansion, regardless of what the eco-fascists say.
    I could accept it if we made a decision not to have any more runways for environmental reasons, or if we decided Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted or Birmingham were best placed for it, but not being able to come to any decision indefinitely is worse than all the above options.
    And this ruling of course isn't just about airports...

    From now on, every infrastructure spending decision in the UK could face legal challenge if it doesn't comply with the Climate Change Act, which mandates virtually zero emissions by 2050.

    It's not clear that's what MPs intended when they signed up to the 2050 target, but in today's court ruling, it's what they've got.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51658693

    Literally every infrastructure project could be deemed against this if you think about it. No new roads or airports thats for certain.

    If the government let this pass unchallenged, we are quickly going to become a country of Luddites as the eco-fascists will have the ability to use this case law to challenge absolutely everything.

    Any attempts by Boris to "level up the North" is going to be bogged down in courts for year after year after year.
  • I'm just reading about the attempted quarantine in the hotel in Tenerife. Christ almighty.

    Thickness and selfishness will be the undoing of us all.

    Got a link to any reports?
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8050471/Frightened-British-mother-coronavirus-hotel.html

    Found it.
    Another woman, quoted in the Mail, was on Breakfast Time this morning. Similar report.
    However, why is anyone there with children? Surely they should be at school. I'd be surprised if, at 45, she had two children under school age.
    Was half term last week in many places, might well be some where its a week later?
    Most private schools close for 14 days
    Allows the rich Tory voters cheaper holiday with the added benefit of being away from the proles. Makes a complete mockery of the criminalisation of taking kids out of school, when the ones who get the best university places are allowed away.
  • PLANES CAUSE POLLUTION!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    geoffw said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    cc

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    Doesn't surprise me. They mean what they say.
    That wasn't what Johnson said and campaigned on just last December. Bear in mind this "oven ready" deal was passed in parliament AFTER the election. This government is acting in bad faith, and not just with the EU.
    From "The Future Relationship with the EU: The UK’s Approach to Negotiations"
    Overall policy framework
    4. The vision for the UK’s future relationship with the EU has already been set out, successively, in the manifesto on the basis of which the Government won the 12 December 2019 General Election, and, subsequently,in the Prime Minister’s speech in Greenwich on 3 February and his written Ministerial statement on the same day.
    5. It is a vision of a relationship based on friendly cooperation between sovereign equals, with both parties respecting one another’s legal autonomy and right to manage their own resources as they see fit. Whatever happens, the Government will not negotiate any arrangement in which the UK does not have control of its own laws and political life. That means that we will not agree to any obligations for our laws to be aligned with the EU's, or for the EU's institutions, including the Court of Justice, to have any jurisdiction in the UK
    Doesn't matter what the small print said at the time. Johnson campaigned on the deal as it currently is being oven ready and getting Brexit done. He got it pushed through parliament after he was elected. Coming back one month later and saying that was then and this is now and we will disregard what we have just agreed, is not acting in good faith. That applies as much to the people of the UK as to EU negotiators.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    IanB2 said:

    I'm just reading about the attempted quarantine in the hotel in Tenerife. Christ almighty.

    Thickness and selfishness will be the undoing of us all.

    Got a link to any reports?
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8050471/Frightened-British-mother-coronavirus-hotel.html

    Found it.
    Another woman, quoted in the Mail, was on Breakfast Time this morning. Similar report.
    However, why is anyone there with children? Surely they should be at school. I'd be surprised if, at 45, she had two children under school age.
    I would have thought that the temperature in the Canaries provides a degree of insurance.

    I have just come from a meeting between my town council and the lead doctor for the regional primary care network, who was telling us about the Corona briefing they've had from the NHS.

    As we already know, they're not expecting to contain the outbreak and it's all about buying time and spreading the peak.

    He did say that the NHS view is that the similarities with the ordinary flu virus are sufficient to believe that it is unlikely to like hotter conditions. So the crisis may well be next winter, rather than this summer.

    He also said that preliminary assessment is that men appear to be significantly more susceptible to getting Corona than women or children.
    Thanks for the update.
  • Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    I think it is going to come as a big shock to the EU and those who want to remain that on this Boris will not be moved

    It is amazing that the EU cannot see, or just does not want to see, that this is not the TM government but a brexit government with an 80 seat majority and of course this is happening in the first year of a five year HOC allowing Boris the political leeway to ride out any storm
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    So with L

    PLANES CAUSE POLLUTION!

    Time to return to Boris Island.
  • Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    I think it is going to come as a big shock to the EU and those who want to remain that on this Boris will not be moved

    It is amazing that the EU cannot see, or just does not want to see, that this is not the TM government but a brexit government with an 80 seat majority and of course this is happening in the first year of a five year HOC allowing Boris the political leeway to ride out any storm
    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/1232987723591569414
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    IanB2 said:

    I'm just reading about the attempted quarantine in the hotel in Tenerife. Christ almighty.

    Thickness and selfishness will be the undoing of us all.

    Got a link to any reports?
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8050471/Frightened-British-mother-coronavirus-hotel.html

    Found it.
    Another woman, quoted in the Mail, was on Breakfast Time this morning. Similar report.
    However, why is anyone there with children? Surely they should be at school. I'd be surprised if, at 45, she had two children under school age.
    I would have thought that the temperature in the Canaries provides a degree of insurance.

    I have just come from a meeting between my town council and the lead doctor for the regional primary care network, who was telling us about the Corona briefing they've had from the NHS.

    As we already know, they're not expecting to contain the outbreak and it's all about buying time and spreading the peak.

    He did say that the NHS view is that the similarities with the ordinary flu virus are sufficient to believe that it is unlikely to like hotter conditions. So the crisis may well be next winter, rather than this summer.

    He also said that preliminary assessment is that men appear to be significantly more susceptible to getting Corona than women or children.

    On the basis that the major US cities move from winter to summer weather around the end of April, we can expect a significant recovery in the markets in the late spring.
    Interesting. Sounds about right. Most of the interviews I've read/seen with people who know what they're talking about suggest that the earlier the warm weather comes, the better.
    There's a reasonable chance that a vaccine might be available by October, too.
  • geoffw said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    cc

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    Doesn't surprise me. They mean what they say.
    That wasn't what Johnson said and campaigned on just last December. Bear in mind this "oven ready" deal was passed in parliament AFTER the election. This government is acting in bad faith, and not just with the EU.
    From "The Future Relationship with the EU: The UK’s Approach to Negotiations"
    Overall policy framework
    4. The vision for the UK’s future relationship with the EU has already been set out, successively, in the manifesto on the basis of which the Government won the 12 December 2019 General Election, and, subsequently,in the Prime Minister’s speech in Greenwich on 3 February and his written Ministerial statement on the same day.
    5. It is a vision of a relationship based on friendly cooperation between sovereign equals, with both parties respecting one another’s legal autonomy and right to manage their own resources as they see fit. Whatever happens, the Government will not negotiate any arrangement in which the UK does not have control of its own laws and political life. That means that we will not agree to any obligations for our laws to be aligned with the EU's, or for the EU's institutions, including the Court of Justice, to have any jurisdiction in the UK


    Isn’t Northern Ireland in the UK? The government has already agreed on alignment there and, therefore, an ongoing role for the ECJ.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274
    Awb682 said:

    How will panicing help?

    It never does... but nobody panics 'to help'.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited February 2020

    I'm just reading about the attempted quarantine in the hotel in Tenerife. Christ almighty.

    Thickness and selfishness will be the undoing of us all.

    I'm not having a go, I'd probably be the same, your own problems tend to always be the most important problems in the world, but I couldn't help but wonder, listening to people complaining about the ordeal of being cooped up in a resort hotel on Tenerife, what somebody in a third world country, just living their normal life, would make of it all. They'd be quite fascinated, I bet. They'd probably be like we are when we watch one of those programmes about the super-rich and one of them starts losing it with the caterers over no fresh caviar for their cat.
  • Mr. Urquhart, it's almost as if passing that Act was bloody dopey of MPs.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    edited February 2020
    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    cc

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    Doesn't surprise me. They mean what they say.
    That wasn't what Johnson said and campaigned on just last December. Bear in mind this "oven ready" deal was passed in parliament AFTER the election. This government is acting in bad faith, and not just with the EU.
    From "The Future Relationship with the EU: The UK’s Approach to Negotiations"
    Overall policy framework
    4. The vision for the UK’s future relationship with the EU has already been set out, successively, in the manifesto on the basis of which the Government won the 12 December 2019 General Election, and, subsequently,in the Prime Minister’s speech in Greenwich on 3 February and his written Ministerial statement on the same day.
    5. It is a vision of a relationship based on friendly cooperation between sovereign equals, with both parties respecting one another’s legal autonomy and right to manage their own resources as they see fit. Whatever happens, the Government will not negotiate any arrangement in which the UK does not have control of its own laws and political life. That means that we will not agree to any obligations for our laws to be aligned with the EU's, or for the EU's institutions, including the Court of Justice, to have any jurisdiction in the UK
    Doesn't matter what the small print said at the time. Johnson campaigned on the deal as it currently is being oven ready and getting Brexit done. He got it pushed through parliament after he was elected. Coming back one month later and saying that was then and this is now and we will disregard what we have just agreed, is not acting in good faith. That applies as much to the people of the UK as to EU negotiators.
    I think where the problem lies is that the WDA is a legal agreement but the political declaration is not and is a framework for a FTA and which both sides seem to think is optional which indeed it probably is

    Mind you that will not stop both sides crying foul but in the end Boris will walk away if the EU try to restrict our ability to make our own laws and trade internationally
  • The Royal Family really do like defending nonces.

    Buckingham Palace resisted calls to strip Jimmy Savile of his knighthood after his death because it did not want to “satisfy immediate media hunger for action”, according to documents disclosed to a public inquiry.

    Royal officials argued that the revelations of the BBC presenter’s prolific sex offending after his death aged 84 in 2011 were no reason to change the honours system to allow posthumous forfeiture. Savile cultivated friendships with the royal family and regarded himself as close to the Prince of Wales.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/palace-opposed-stripping-jimmy-savile-of-knighthood-after-his-death-bf3d3qlgf
  • Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    Boris won't want economic trouble - the one thing that really could damage his reputation and prospects. The trick is to get the most benign deal with the EU while persuading his followers that he's still the man. They adore him, can't bear to think ill of him, so that shouldn't be a problem.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited February 2020
    kinabalu said:

    I'm just reading about the attempted quarantine in the hotel in Tenerife. Christ almighty.

    Thickness and selfishness will be the undoing of us all.

    I'm not having a go, I'd probably be the same, your own problems tend to always be the most important problems in the world, but I couldn't help but wonder, listening to people complaining about the ordeal of being cooped up in a resort hotel on Tenerife, what somebody in a third world country, just living their normal life, would make of it all. They'd be quite fascinated, I bet. They'd probably be like we are when we watch one of those programmes about the super-rich and one of them starts losing it with the caterers over no fresh caviar for their cat.
    They had a British guy on the radio yesterday and it sounded like basically the guests weren't listening and the hotel / authorities not really implementing basic checks.

    Restaurant open, all around the pool by the next day. Had been given thermometers, but no recording of people's temperatures.

    His major concern, can I get a payout on my travel insurance.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,886
    [SPAIN] Confirmed 2 new unrelated cases in Madrid, with no clear link to risk areas yet
    "Health has confirmed on Thursday two new cases of coronavirus in Torrejón de Ardoz (Madrid), which have been identified at dawn on Thursday and are being investigated. This has been confirmed by the director of the Center for Coordination of Health Alerts and Emergencies of the Ministry of Health, Fernando Simón, at a press conference.
    As Simon has informed the media, in principle, the two cases are not related to each other, nor have they traveled to any of the identified risk areas. The health authorities investigate whether they were in contact with any person from the main sources of the virus, such as China or Italy."

    https://www.eldiario.es/sociedad/Sanidad-confirma-coronavirus-Madrid-principio_0_1000200243.html

    Spain with two more unrelated cases without travel to risk areas, while France have had two people who hadn't travelled to at risk areas die. We seem to be very 'lucky' right now.
  • On Heathrow, why is it assumed that there are going to be ever more flights to the UK? In a world where it is getting ever easier to work remotely and where there is increasing focus on the impact of flights on climate change, this seems very questionable.

    I can't say, however, I'm too enthused about courts putting a halt on a decision of this type taken by politicians. It could hardly be said that the decision to go ahead with the third runway had not been debated enough. Courts should apply an extremely wide margin of appreciation given that level of debate.

    So, somewhat to my surprise, on this particular occasion I find myself almost precisely aligned with Boris Johnson - content enough to see the specific proposal halted but unimpressed with the way the court approached its responsibility in such a politically charged matter.
  • Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    I think it is going to come as a big shock to the EU and those who want to remain that on this Boris will not be moved

    It is amazing that the EU cannot see, or just does not want to see, that this is not the TM government but a brexit government with an 80 seat majority and of course this is happening in the first year of a five year HOC allowing Boris the political leeway to ride out any storm
    I'm afraid you're missing the point.
    A No Deal Brexit will be worse for the UK than for the EU.
    No matter how strong willed Boris is the EU will make the best possible decisions for the EU 27 countries. They won't cut off their nose to spite their face but if Boris won't compromise neither will they bend over backwards to help him.
    Sorry for the mixed metaphors.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited February 2020

    I'm just reading about the attempted quarantine in the hotel in Tenerife. Christ almighty.

    Thickness and selfishness will be the undoing of us all.

    Got a link to any reports?
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8050471/Frightened-British-mother-coronavirus-hotel.html

    Found it.
    Another woman, quoted in the Mail, was on Breakfast Time this morning. Similar report.
    However, why is anyone there with children? Surely they should be at school. I'd be surprised if, at 45, she had two children under school age.
    Was half term last week in many places, might well be some where its a week later?
    Most private schools close for 14 days
    Boarding schools, maybe. Independent day schools get just one week, AFAIK (and there are a lot more of them).
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    cc

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    Doesn't surprise me. They mean what they say.
    That wasn't what Johnson said and campaigned on just last December. Bear in mind this "oven ready" deal was passed in parliament AFTER the election. This government is acting in bad faith, and not just with the EU.
    From "The Future Relationship with the EU: The UK’s Approach to Negotiations"
    Overall policy framework
    4. The vision for the UK’s future relationship with the EU has already been set out, successively, in the manifesto on the basis of which the Government won the 12 December 2019 General Election, and, subsequently,in the Prime Minister’s speech in Greenwich on 3 February and his written Ministerial statement on the same day.
    5. It is a vision of a relationship based on friendly cooperation between sovereign equals, with both parties respecting one another’s legal autonomy and right to manage their own resources as they see fit. Whatever happens, the Government will not negotiate any arrangement in which the UK does not have control of its own laws and political life. That means that we will not agree to any obligations for our laws to be aligned with the EU's, or for the EU's institutions, including the Court of Justice, to have any jurisdiction in the UK
    Doesn't matter what the small print said at the time. Johnson campaigned on the deal as it currently is being oven ready and getting Brexit done. He got it pushed through parliament after he was elected. Coming back one month later and saying that was then and this is now and we will disregard what we have just agreed, is not acting in good faith. That applies as much to the people of the UK as to EU negotiators.
    As today's document says, the policy was "set out ... in the manifesto on the basis of which the Government won the 12 December 2019 General Election".
    Do you think election manifestos are irrelevant?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Awb682 said:

    How will panicing help?

    It never does... but nobody panics 'to help'.
    Well...your panicking is my prudent precaution. You say the telegraph woman is panicking when she stockpiles food, but I am about to do the same in a modest way. Four weeks down the line that will help considerably if it enables me to self isolate when otherwise I couldn't.
  • geoffw said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    cc

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    Doesn't surprise me. They mean what they say.
    That wasn't what Johnson said and campaigned on just last December. Bear in mind this "oven ready" deal was passed in parliament AFTER the election. This government is acting in bad faith, and not just with the EU.
    From "The Future Relationship with the EU: The UK’s Approach to Negotiations"
    Overall policy framework
    4. The vision for the UK’s future relationship with the EU has already been set out, successively, in the manifesto on the basis of which the Government won the 12 December 2019 General Election, and, subsequently,in the Prime Minister’s speech in Greenwich on 3 February and his written Ministerial statement on the same day.
    5. It is a vision of a relationship based on friendly cooperation between sovereign equals, with both parties respecting one another’s legal autonomy and right to manage their own resources as they see fit. Whatever happens, the Government will not negotiate any arrangement in which the UK does not have control of its own laws and political life. That means that we will not agree to any obligations for our laws to be aligned with the EU's, or for the EU's institutions, including the Court of Justice, to have any jurisdiction in the UK


    Isn’t Northern Ireland in the UK? The government has already agreed on alignment there and, therefore, an ongoing role for the ECJ.

    You get the distinct impression that those involved have either no idea on the detail or just make it all up as they go and care not a jot.

    I'm planning for No Deal.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    Bullying isn't always wrong. This is one of those cases.
    Really? You think she ought to be bullied just because she voted in a different way to her friends?
    Her real problem is that she is flag-waving for a brand that has become increasingly toxic and nasty and I say that as someone who voted Conservative in the past. Whilst bullying is wrong I cannot say that I am surprised she is experiencing it.
    I am not surprised by a lot of things which I deplore. It is not simply the right which, to some, has become increasingly “toxic and nasty”. The same could be said about Labour. But I wouldn’t shun my Labour-voting friends or hiss “Nazi” at them if they came into the room

    Ms Mulvey is entitled to her views. She is not entitled to insist that others respect them. If she doesn't like how her "friends" think about her, she should find new and more congenial friends.

    This is the latest trend on the far right - to assume that free speech should mean consequence-free speech. You can say what you like. And others can say what they like about what you have just said.

    In turn, you can say what you like about their perspective. Just as Ms Mulvey has today, in the columns of a national newspaper.

    All true. But there is a point you miss. Some of those who claim to be liberal and open-minded and deplore Brexiteers for not being these things often display these self-same characteristics when faced with opinions they don’t like.

    Groupthink on the “liberal” side is as silly and dangerous as it is anywhere else. Those who dislike what Brexit is turning into need to ask ourselves some hard questions about why we have not been able to persuade people to our views. Not simply deplore or criticise others for being wrong.

    The same might also be said of Brexiteers who are intent on a very hard Brexit indeed on the basis of a 52/48 referendum victory. That is no way to build any sort of lasting consensus or settlement. Grinding your opponents’ faces in the dust never turns out well.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    Boris won't want economic trouble - the one thing that really could damage his reputation and prospects. The trick is to get the most benign deal with the EU while persuading his followers that he's still the man. They adore him, can't bear to think ill of him, so that shouldn't be a problem.
    Gove seems prepared to abandon the European Arrest Warrant. IIRC, one of the methods of avoiding the police before the EEC was going to the Republic of Ireland or Spain.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    Most private schools close for 14 days

    I would like to see that 14 days extend to something close to forever.

    But that's another story. :smile:
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    edited February 2020
    Most likely but the government now call it trading an Australian terms with the EU, not no deal
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123

    kinabalu said:

    I'm just reading about the attempted quarantine in the hotel in Tenerife. Christ almighty.

    Thickness and selfishness will be the undoing of us all.

    I'm not having a go, I'd probably be the same, your own problems tend to always be the most important problems in the world, but I couldn't help but wonder, listening to people complaining about the ordeal of being cooped up in a resort hotel on Tenerife, what somebody in a third world country, just living their normal life, would make of it all. They'd be quite fascinated, I bet. They'd probably be like we are when we watch one of those programmes about the super-rich and one of them starts losing it with the caterers over no fresh caviar for their cat.
    They had a British guy on the radio yesterday and it sounded like basically the guests weren't listening and the hotel / authorities not really implementing basic checks.

    Restaurant open, all around the pool by the next day. Had been given thermometers, but no recording of people's temperatures.

    His major concern, can I get a payout on my travel insurance.
    Yes. I can just imagine what they are saying now.. It's just like the flu, people drown in swimming pools and think about the risk of an RTA. Anyway, I want to top up my tan.

    Cretins. But partly everyone's fault. Our society celebrates ignorance and selfishness.

    But I hear the government are to roll out their public information campaign soon.

    Get on with it please.
  • Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    Boris won't want economic trouble - the one thing that really could damage his reputation and prospects. The trick is to get the most benign deal with the EU while persuading his followers that he's still the man. They adore him, can't bear to think ill of him, so that shouldn't be a problem.
    Gove seems prepared to abandon the European Arrest Warrant. IIRC, one of the methods of avoiding the police before the EEC was going to the Republic of Ireland or Spain.
    Might be helpful for someone into their cocaine perhaps......
  • HYUFD said:
    Dont the right wing press normally think anyone moaning about mere words is a snowflake? Why is it different for a right wing journalist one wonders?
    They also moan about Identity Politics (happens a lot on PB as well)

    They then tell us that Brexit is important because it is about identity, not economics....

    :D:D
    It's almost as if the Right is using the Left's twin weapons of speech policing and identity politics against them... :smile:
    Well, let us hear less complaints about those "weapons" from the right then ;)
  • kinabalu said:

    Most private schools close for 14 days

    I would like to see that 14 days extend to something close to forever.

    But that's another story. :smile:
    It was interesting in the labour leader debates, including Thornberry, when asked if they would ban private schools they all said no
  • Most likely but the government now call it trading an Australian terms with the EU, not no deal
    That's just total spin.
  • Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    Boris won't want economic trouble - the one thing that really could damage his reputation and prospects. The trick is to get the most benign deal with the EU while persuading his followers that he's still the man. They adore him, can't bear to think ill of him, so that shouldn't be a problem.
    Gove seems prepared to abandon the European Arrest Warrant. IIRC, one of the methods of avoiding the police before the EEC was going to the Republic of Ireland or Spain.
    We can't get Starmer as LOTO fast enough.
  • kinabalu said:

    I'm just reading about the attempted quarantine in the hotel in Tenerife. Christ almighty.

    Thickness and selfishness will be the undoing of us all.

    I'm not having a go, I'd probably be the same, your own problems tend to always be the most important problems in the world, but I couldn't help but wonder, listening to people complaining about the ordeal of being cooped up in a resort hotel on Tenerife, what somebody in a third world country, just living their normal life, would make of it all. They'd be quite fascinated, I bet. They'd probably be like we are when we watch one of those programmes about the super-rich and one of them starts losing it with the caterers over no fresh caviar for their cat.
    They had a British guy on the radio yesterday and it sounded like basically the guests weren't listening and the hotel / authorities not really implementing basic checks.

    Restaurant open, all around the pool by the next day. Had been given thermometers, but no recording of people's temperatures.

    His major concern, can I get a payout on my travel insurance.
    Yes. I can just imagine what they are saying now.. It's just like the flu, people drown in swimming pools and think about the risk of an RTA. Anyway, I want to top up my tan.

    Cretins. But partly everyone's fault. Our society celebrates ignorance and selfishness.

    But I hear the government are to roll out their public information campaign soon.

    Get on with it please.
    The segment was followed by an medical expert, who said that hotels are terrible places for quarantine (not as bad as a cruise ship, but not far off), partly for this reason i.e. the environment is one where people want to go out and use the facilities and not setup for genuine isolation, but also because you can't closely track who gets what, when, where.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    edited February 2020
    Re the mother with children on holiday not in half term: the independent schools I know are back now and I haven’t heard of areas which had a different half term to most. Much more likely that she has taken her children out of school to take advantage of cheaper rates.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    Heathrow expansion halted by courts. Good victory for XR and other groups.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited February 2020

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    Boris won't want economic trouble - the one thing that really could damage his reputation and prospects. The trick is to get the most benign deal with the EU while persuading his followers that he's still the man. They adore him, can't bear to think ill of him, so that shouldn't be a problem.
    If Boris accepts the only deal the EU seem to be willing to offer, ie not a Canada style FTA but full regulatory alignment and ECJ jurisdiction then that will be staying in the single market and the Chequers Deal in all but name and lots of Leavers will start to shift back to a revived Brexit Party as Farage cries 'betrayal' almost as quickly as they returned to the Tories once they dumped May for Boris.

    Boris knows that and hence he is preparing for WTO terms
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    geoffw said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    cc

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    Doesn't surprise me. They mean what they say.
    That wasn't what Johnson said and campaigned on just last December. Bear in mind this "oven ready" deal was passed in parliament AFTER the election. This government is acting in bad faith, and not just with the EU.
    From "The Future Relationship with the EU: The UK’s Approach to Negotiations"
    Overall policy framework
    4. The vision for the UK’s future relationship with the EU has already been set out, successively, in the manifesto on the basis of which the Government won the 12 December 2019 General Election, and, subsequently,in the Prime Minister’s speech in Greenwich on 3 February and his written Ministerial statement on the same day.
    5. It is a vision of a relationship based on friendly cooperation between sovereign equals, with both parties respecting one another’s legal autonomy and right to manage their own resources as they see fit. Whatever happens, the Government will not negotiate any arrangement in which the UK does not have control of its own laws and political life. That means that we will not agree to any obligations for our laws to be aligned with the EU's, or for the EU's institutions, including the Court of Justice, to have any jurisdiction in the UK


    Isn’t Northern Ireland in the UK? The government has already agreed on alignment there and, therefore, an ongoing role for the ECJ.

    You get the distinct impression that those involved have either no idea on the detail or just make it all up as they go and care not a jot.

    I'm planning for No Deal.

    I have been since early 2019. I said in a thread header then that the ERG had won. And they have. Whenever there is a revolution - even on the basis of a slender 52/48 victory - it is the extremists who end up taking charge. See France 1789 and Russia 1917.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    On Heathrow, why is it assumed that there are going to be ever more flights to the UK? In a world where it is getting ever easier to work remotely and where there is increasing focus on the impact of flights on climate change, this seems very questionable.

    I can't say, however, I'm too enthused about courts putting a halt on a decision of this type taken by politicians. It could hardly be said that the decision to go ahead with the third runway had not been debated enough. Courts should apply an extremely wide margin of appreciation given that level of debate.

    So, somewhat to my surprise, on this particular occasion I find myself almost precisely aligned with Boris Johnson - content enough to see the specific proposal halted but unimpressed with the way the court approached its responsibility in such a politically charged matter.

    I too rolled my eyes at this - I think the courts see everything within their remit these days.
  • Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    I think it is going to come as a big shock to the EU and those who want to remain that on this Boris will not be moved

    It is amazing that the EU cannot see, or just does not want to see, that this is not the TM government but a brexit government with an 80 seat majority and of course this is happening in the first year of a five year HOC allowing Boris the political leeway to ride out any storm
    I'm afraid you're missing the point.
    A No Deal Brexit will be worse for the UK than for the EU.
    No matter how strong willed Boris is the EU will make the best possible decisions for the EU 27 countries. They won't cut off their nose to spite their face but if Boris won't compromise neither will they bend over backwards to help him.
    Sorry for the mixed metaphors.
    And so it becomes the Australian deal announced in early June to give exporters time to adjust for 1st January

    I cannot see Boris, Cummings or the government shifting on this
  • Cyclefree said:


    Ms Mulvey is entitled to her views. She is not entitled to insist that others respect them. If she doesn't like how her "friends" think about her, she should find new and more congenial friends.

    This is the latest trend on the far right - to assume that free speech should mean consequence-free speech. You can say what you like. And others can say what they like about what you have just said.

    In turn, you can say what you like about their perspective. Just as Ms Mulvey has today, in the columns of a national newspaper.

    All true. But there is a point you miss. Some of those who claim to be liberal and open-minded and deplore Brexiteers for not being these things often display these self-same characteristics when faced with opinions they don’t like.

    Groupthink on the “liberal” side is as silly and dangerous as it is anywhere else. Those who dislike what Brexit is turning into need to ask ourselves some hard questions about why we have not been able to persuade people to our views. Not simply deplore or criticise others for being wrong.

    The same might also be said of Brexiteers who are intent on a very hard Brexit indeed on the basis of a 52/48 referendum victory. That is no way to build any sort of lasting consensus or settlement. Grinding your opponents’ faces in the dust never turns out well.
    Oh I don't approve of gratuitous rudeness towards people whose views you do not share. I'm afraid, however, that is a normal part of everyday life and it is odd that the snowflake Brexiteers want both to be able to trumpet their opinions and then not be judged for them (though I'm sure they would be happy to be judged approvingly).

    It betrays an intellectual cringe on their part, a subconscious recognition that the people whose opinions they esteem disdain their views. They should ask themselves why they esteem the opinions of those people and if they still want their esteem, why those people disdain their views.

    There is certainly a need for the Remainer fraternity to have a similar self-scrutiny. However, they feel it much less simply because things are going in a direction they strongly disapprove of and examining exactly why the country is going to hell in a handcart is much less relevant than the fact that it is.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Quincel said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    AEP in Telegraph. Trump's anti-science obsessions about to be exposed by virus, Sanders could well win:

    "What are the Dow index and the S&P 500 worth in a global economy facing - potentially - the worst ‘sudden stop’ since August 1914, and a new America led by a President Sanders with a mandate for socialist upheaval? Let’s be generous and say about half of current levels."

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1232854771507367936?s=20
    Ah this is what you are rightly famous for: cherrypicking polls.

    1. Rasmussen consistently gives Trump much better numbers in its polls than all the other pollsters (except for the occasional Gallup). Check out the daily presidential approval polls
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/trump-approval/
    eg yesterday Rasmussen shows Trump +3, the other 3 pollsters (who all have a better pollster rating on 538 than Rasmussen for what it's worth) range between -8 and -14
    2. This poll seems to be a bit odd as it only matches Trump against Sanders, probably Rasmussen would have Trump beating other democrats by similar numbers.
    3. If you want to check Trump vs Sanders national polls then it is either mathematically illiterate or dishonest to only look at one outlier. Here are the most recent ones:
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/
    You have to go back 16 polls to find another one where Sanders doesn't beat Trump. In many polls Sanders does better than any other Dem candidate.
    Rasmussen did have Clinton ahead by 2% in its final 2016 poll though, closer to the final popular vote result than most pollsters
    True, but their final 2018 House 'Generic Ballot' polls was GOP +1% when the actual outcome was Dem +8.5% and they consistently are far more Republican than other pollsters or the outcomes most of the time. The final poll on Clinton v Trump looks like a stopped clock being right in the wider context.
    They had Romney beating Obama by 2. Their 2016 was a near perfect poll herd by them, bang in the middle of the polling average.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Most likely but the government now call it trading an Australian terms with the EU, not no deal
    They are the same thing. If there is no deal, that is what it is. Let the government t be honest, for once. Their lies will catch up them in the end.
  • Most likely but the government now call it trading an Australian terms with the EU, not no deal
    That's just total spin.
    It is but so was get brexit done
  • kinabalu said:

    I'm just reading about the attempted quarantine in the hotel in Tenerife. Christ almighty.

    Thickness and selfishness will be the undoing of us all.

    I'm not having a go, I'd probably be the same, your own problems tend to always be the most important problems in the world, but I couldn't help but wonder, listening to people complaining about the ordeal of being cooped up in a resort hotel on Tenerife, what somebody in a third world country, just living their normal life, would make of it all. They'd be quite fascinated, I bet. They'd probably be like we are when we watch one of those programmes about the super-rich and one of them starts losing it with the caterers over no fresh caviar for their cat.
    They had a British guy on the radio yesterday and it sounded like basically the guests weren't listening and the hotel / authorities not really implementing basic checks.

    Restaurant open, all around the pool by the next day. Had been given thermometers, but no recording of people's temperatures.

    His major concern, can I get a payout on my travel insurance.
    Yes. I can just imagine what they are saying now.. It's just like the flu, people drown in swimming pools and think about the risk of an RTA. Anyway, I want to top up my tan.

    Cretins. But partly everyone's fault. Our society celebrates ignorance and selfishness.

    But I hear the government are to roll out their public information campaign soon.

    Get on with it please.
    The segment was followed by an medical expert, who said that hotels are terrible places for quarantine (not as bad as a cruise ship, but not far off), partly for this reason i.e. the environment is one where people want to go out and use the facilities and not setup for genuine isolation, but also because you can't closely track who gets what, when, where.
    And they're still eating from communal food troughs - one of the many unspeakable features of cheap mass tourism.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    eek said:

    I don't know why Boris hates courts - look at the problem they've just resolved for him

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1232972382287081472

    China can build a hospital in 6 days. We cant decide where to build a runway in over 6000 days and counting. Wonder which country will do better over the next century......
    China doesn't have that pesky problem of courts ruling against these things.

    It is politically very good for Boris, but for the UK bad news. We need airport expansion, regardless of what the eco-fascists say.
    I could accept it if we made a decision not to have any more runways for environmental reasons, or if we decided Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted or Birmingham were best placed for it, but not being able to come to any decision indefinitely is worse than all the above options.
    And this ruling of course isn't just about airports...

    From now on, every infrastructure spending decision in the UK could face legal challenge if it doesn't comply with the Climate Change Act, which mandates virtually zero emissions by 2050.

    It's not clear that's what MPs intended when they signed up to the 2050 target, but in today's court ruling, it's what they've got.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51658693

    Literally every infrastructure project could be deemed against this if you think about it. No new roads or airports thats for certain.

    If the government let this pass unchallenged, we are quickly going to become a country of Luddites as the eco-fascists will have the ability to use this case law to challenge absolutely everything.

    Any attempts by Boris to "level up the North" is going to be bogged down in courts for year after year after year.
    Yes, this is a hilariously poor piece of case law for the UK's future prosperity.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670



    In turn, you can say what you like about their perspective. Just as Ms Mulvey has today, in the columns of a national newspaper.

    "Help I'm being silenced" they write in their regular weekly newspaper column
    "We can never talk about X" they say in a national radio broadcast about subject X.
    Etc.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,451
    edited February 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    On Heathrow, why is it assumed that there are going to be ever more flights to the UK? In a world where it is getting ever easier to work remotely and where there is increasing focus on the impact of flights on climate change, this seems very questionable.

    I can't say, however, I'm too enthused about courts putting a halt on a decision of this type taken by politicians. It could hardly be said that the decision to go ahead with the third runway had not been debated enough. Courts should apply an extremely wide margin of appreciation given that level of debate.

    So, somewhat to my surprise, on this particular occasion I find myself almost precisely aligned with Boris Johnson - content enough to see the specific proposal halted but unimpressed with the way the court approached its responsibility in such a politically charged matter.

    I too rolled my eyes at this - I think the courts see everything within their remit these days.
    If parliament keeps publishing 1000s of new laws and regulations each year without removing an equivalent number of old ones, why is anyone surprised that the remit of the courts expands?

    (Of course at the same time their ability to deal expeditiously, efficiently, and correctly with the existing laws declines due to additional workload).
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    I think it is going to come as a big shock to the EU and those who want to remain that on this Boris will not be moved

    It is amazing that the EU cannot see, or just does not want to see, that this is not the TM government but a brexit government with an 80 seat majority and of course this is happening in the first year of a five year HOC allowing Boris the political leeway to ride out any storm
    I'm afraid you're missing the point.
    A No Deal Brexit will be worse for the UK than for the EU.
    No matter how strong willed Boris is the EU will make the best possible decisions for the EU 27 countries. They won't cut off their nose to spite their face but if Boris won't compromise neither will they bend over backwards to help him.
    Sorry for the mixed metaphors.
    The EU also has to worry about it's negotiations with the rest of the world (which Brexiters constantly tell us is the future). Rolling over to the UK and especially allowing the UK to renege on stuff already agreed would destroy the EU's negotiating positions everywhere else.
    For the UK, on the other hand, reneging on what is already agreed will hamper the UK's negotiations elsewhere as trust will be in very short supply.

    Maybe all this nationalistic shit will go down well with enough British voters for Johnson to think it's all a great wheeze, so I am pretty much expecting a no-deal blame-the-foreigners shitstorm at the end of the year.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited February 2020
    Alistair said:

    Quincel said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    AEP in Telegraph. Trump's anti-science obsessions about to be exposed by virus, Sanders could well win:

    "What are the Dow index and the S&P 500 worth in a global economy facing - potentially - the worst ‘sudden stop’ since August 1914, and a new America led by a President Sanders with a mandate for socialist upheaval? Let’s be generous and say about half of current levels."

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1232854771507367936?s=20
    Ah this is what you are rightly famous for: cherrypicking polls.

    1. Rasmussen consistently gives Trump much better numbers in its polls than all the other pollsters (except for the occasional Gallup). Check out the daily presidential approval polls
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/trump-approval/
    eg yesterday Rasmussen shows Trump +3, the other 3 pollsters (who all have a better pollster rating on 538 than Rasmussen for what it's worth) range between -8 and -14
    2. This poll seems to be a bit odd as it only matches Trump against Sanders, probably Rasmussen would have Trump beating other democrats by similar numbers.
    3. If you want to check Trump vs Sanders national polls then it is either mathematically illiterate or dishonest to only look at one outlier. Here are the most recent ones:
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/
    You have to go back 16 polls to find another one where Sanders doesn't beat Trump. In many polls Sanders does better than any other Dem candidate.
    Rasmussen did have Clinton ahead by 2% in its final 2016 poll though, closer to the final popular vote result than most pollsters
    True, but their final 2018 House 'Generic Ballot' polls was GOP +1% when the actual outcome was Dem +8.5% and they consistently are far more Republican than other pollsters or the outcomes most of the time. The final poll on Clinton v Trump looks like a stopped clock being right in the wider context.
    They had Romney beating Obama by 2. Their 2016 was a near perfect poll herd by them, bang in the middle of the polling average.
    In 2004 Rasmussen had Bush beating Kerry by 2, in 2008 Rasmussen had Obama beating McCain by 6 and as you say in 2016 they had Hillary ahead by 2 on the popular vote. So bar 2012 since they were founded in 2003 Rasmussen have a good record in presidential elections.

    Plus given their poll today had Trump beating Sanders by 7, given in 2012 Obama won by 3, even on their same error as 2012 Trump would still lead Sanders by 2
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    Alistair said:



    In turn, you can say what you like about their perspective. Just as Ms Mulvey has today, in the columns of a national newspaper.

    "Help I'm being silenced" they write in their regular weekly newspaper column
    "We can never talk about X" they say in a national radio broadcast about subject X.
    Etc.
    Exactly.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited February 2020

    Cyclefree said:


    Ms Mulvey is entitled to her views. If she doesn't like how her "friends" think about her, she should find new and more congenial friends.

    This is the latest trend on the far right - to assume that free speech should mean consequence-free speech. You can say what you like. And others can say what they like about what you have just said.

    In turn, you can say what you like about their perspective. Just as Ms Mulvey has today, in the columns of a national newspaper.

    All true. But there is a point you miss. Some of those who claim to be liberal and open-minded and deplore Brexiteers for not being these things often display these self-same characteristics when faced with opinions they don’t like.

    Groupthink on the “liberal” side is as silly and dangerous as it is anywhere else. Those who dislike what Brexit is turning into need to ask ourselves some hard questions about why we have not been able to persuade people to our views. Not simply deplore or criticise others for being wrong.

    The same might also be said of Brexiteers who are intent on a very hard Brexit indeed on the basis of a 52/48 referendum victory. That is no way to build any sort of lasting consensus or settlement. Grinding your opponents’ faces in the dust never turns out well.
    Oh I don't approve of gratuitous rudeness towards people whose views you do not share. I'm afraid, however, that is a normal part of everyday life and it is odd that the snowflake Brexiteers want both to be able to trumpet their opinions and then not be judged for them (though I'm sure they would be happy to be judged approvingly).

    It betrays an intellectual cringe on their part, a subconscious recognition that the people whose opinions they esteem disdain their views. They should ask themselves why they esteem the opinions of those people and if they still want their esteem, why those people disdain their views.

    There is certainly a need for the Remainer fraternity to have a similar self-scrutiny. However, they feel it much less simply because things are going in a direction they strongly disapprove of and examining exactly why the country is going to hell in a handcart is much less relevant than the fact that it is.
    Agreed. I do think, though, that those who feel the country is going in the wrong direction need to learn from their mistakes and fight for what they want. I am not prepared to let my country go down the wrong path, even if there is little in practice I can do. But intelligent thought and self-reflection, particularly if it leads to better ideas from those who can, are worth it.

    If the “Remainers” (to use a short-hand) do not do the hard thinking about what sort of a society they want for the future and how to get it, they will keep on losing the battle of ideas, policies and elections.
  • Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    Boris won't want economic trouble - the one thing that really could damage his reputation and prospects. The trick is to get the most benign deal with the EU while persuading his followers that he's still the man. They adore him, can't bear to think ill of him, so that shouldn't be a problem.
    Economic trouble is almost inevitable within the next 5 years. By the next election it will be 17 years since the financial crisis started.

    The whole point of Brexit is to be independent and set our own laws. Any temporary economic trouble is secondary to that and as Big G said there will be years to recover from it.
  • Alistair said:



    In turn, you can say what you like about their perspective. Just as Ms Mulvey has today, in the columns of a national newspaper.

    "Help I'm being silenced" they write in their regular weekly newspaper column
    "We can never talk about X" they say in a national radio broadcast about subject X.
    Etc.
    It does seem to be another case of having your cake, eating it and then denying you are allowed cake.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.

    I would caution you against storing up too much belief in Boris "Boris" Johnson. Remember how he accepted a border in the Irish Sea having sworn that he would never do so? That was instructive. The notion that he might cave on the FTA comes from the insight that he does what is most politically expedient for him at any point in time. He might well judge that to be "cave in" and do a deal mainly on the EU's terms. Then again he might judge it to be walk away and go clean break and WTO. Which benefits him most? Which harms him the least? Answer this and you can predict with complete certainty which way he will jump. I think he will cave because (i) he will fear the economic consequences of WTO and (ii) he has the political capital and skill to sell it to Leavers. Of course I could be wrong, it happens, but I am reasonably certain on this one.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    Report 6: Relative sensitivity of international surveillance
    WHO Collaborating Centre for Infectious Disease Modelling
    MRC Centre for Global Infectious Disease Analysis
    Abdul Latif Jameel Institute for Disease and Emergency Analytics (J-IDEA) Imperial College London
    https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College---COVID-19---Relative-Sensitivity-International-Cases.pdf
    Since the start of the COVID-19 epidemic in late 2019, there are now 29 affected regions and countries with over 1000 confirmed cases outside of mainland China. In previous reports, we estimated the likely epidemic size in Wuhan City based on air traffic volumes and the number of detected cases internationally. Here we analysed COVID-19 cases exported from mainland China to different regions and countries, comparing the country-specific rates of detected and confirmed cases per flight volume to estimate the relative sensitivity of surveillance in different countries. Although travel restrictions from Wuhan City and other cities across China may have reduced the absolute number of travellers to and from China, we estimated that about two thirds of COVID-19 cases exported from mainland China have remained undetected worldwide, potentially resulting in multiple chains of as yet undetected human-to-human transmission outside mainland China...
  • Cyclefree said:

    Most likely but the government now call it trading an Australian terms with the EU, not no deal
    They are the same thing. If there is no deal, that is what it is. Let the government t be honest, for once. Their lies will catch up them in the end.
    I am not sure how many have noticed but no deal has recently been rebranded to an Australian deal and references to no deal banned

    It is very naughty but this is politics
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    kinabalu said:

    Most private schools close for 14 days

    I would like to see that 14 days extend to something close to forever.

    But that's another story. :smile:
    It was interesting in the labour leader debates, including Thornberry, when asked if they would ban private schools they all said no
    It would be illegal. That’s why. See the ECHR.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Cyclefree said:

    geoffw said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    cc

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    Doesn't surprise me. They mean what they say.
    That wasn't what Johnson said and campaigned on just last December. Bear in mind this "oven ready" deal was passed in parliament AFTER the election. This government is acting in bad faith, and not just with the EU.
    From "The Future Relationship with the EU: The UK’s Approach to Negotiations"
    Overall policy framework
    4. The vision for the UK’s future relationship with the EU has already been set out, successively, in the manifesto on the basis of which the Government won the 12 December 2019 General Election, and, subsequently,in the Prime Minister’s speech in Greenwich on 3 February and his written Ministerial statement on the same day.
    5. It is a vision of a relationship based on friendly cooperation between sovereign equals, with both parties respecting one another’s legal autonomy and right to manage their own resources as they see fit. Whatever happens, the Government will not negotiate any arrangement in which the UK does not have control of its own laws and political life. That means that we will not agree to any obligations for our laws to be aligned with the EU's, or for the EU's institutions, including the Court of Justice, to have any jurisdiction in the UK


    Isn’t Northern Ireland in the UK? The government has already agreed on alignment there and, therefore, an ongoing role for the ECJ.

    You get the distinct impression that those involved have either no idea on the detail or just make it all up as they go and care not a jot.

    I'm planning for No Deal.

    I have been since early 2019. I said in a thread header then that the ERG had won. And they have. Whenever there is a revolution - even on the basis of a slender 52/48 victory - it is the extremists who end up taking charge. See France 1789 and Russia 1917.
    The irony is it took Boris to deliver Brexit against the diehard Remainers but it might take Starmer to get us back in the single market against the diehard Leavers
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Ms Mulvey is entitled to her views. If she doesn't like how her "friends" think about her, she should find new and more congenial friends.

    All true. But there is a point you miss. Some of those who claim to be liberal and open-minded and deplore Brexiteers for not being these things often display these self-same characteristics when faced with opinions they don’t like.

    Groupthink on the “liberal” side is as silly and dangerous as it is anywhere else. Those who dislike what Brexit is turning into need to ask ourselves some hard questions about why we have not been able to persuade people to our views. Not simply deplore or criticise others for being wrong.

    The same might also be said of Brexiteers who are intent on a very hard Brexit indeed on the basis of a 52/48 referendum victory. That is no way to build any sort of lasting consensus or settlement. Grinding your opponents’ faces in the dust never turns out well.
    Oh I don't approve of gratuitous rudeness towards people whose views you do not share. I'm afraid, however, that is a normal part of everyday life and it is odd that the snowflake Brexiteers want both to be able to trumpet their opinions and then not be judged for them (though I'm sure they would be happy to be judged approvingly).

    It betrays an intellectual cringe on their part, a subconscious recognition that the people whose opinions they esteem disdain their views. They should ask themselves why they esteem the opinions of those people and if they still want their esteem, why those people disdain their views.

    There is certainly a need for the Remainer fraternity to have a similar self-scrutiny. However, they feel it much less simply because things are going in a direction they strongly disapprove of and examining exactly why the country is going to hell in a handcart is much less relevant than the fact that it is.
    Agreed. I do think, though, that those who feel the country is going in the wrong direction need to learn from their mistakes and fight for what they want. I am not prepared to let my country go down the wrong path, even if there is little in practice I can do. But intelligent thought and self-reflection, particularly if it leads to better ideas from those who can, are worth it.

    If the “Remainers” (to use a short-hand) do not do the hard thinking about what a society they want for the future and how to get it, they will keep on losing the battle of ideas, policies and elections.
    Alastair likes the saying “to govern is to choose.” Unfortunately remainers didn’t want to make difficult choices. No remainers put forward radical changes to our welfare state and health service to adapt to our EU membership. So the public made the choice for them.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    Boris won't want economic trouble - the one thing that really could damage his reputation and prospects. The trick is to get the most benign deal with the EU while persuading his followers that he's still the man. They adore him, can't bear to think ill of him, so that shouldn't be a problem.
    Economic trouble is almost inevitable within the next 5 years. By the next election it will be 17 years since the financial crisis started.

    The whole point of Brexit is to be independent and set our own laws. Any temporary economic trouble is secondary to that and as Big G said there will be years to recover from it.
    One thing any new Government wants is for the inevitable recession to occur early.

    I think this one is baked in for a lot of reasons, Brexit is one, the IR35 changes another, Covid is more like a final straw.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    HYUFD said:



    In 2004 Rasmussen had Bush beating Kerry by 2, in 2008 Rasmussen had Obama beating McCain by 6 and as you say in 2016 they had Hillary ahead by 2 on the popular vote. So bar 2012 since they were founded in 2003 Rasmussen have a good record in presidential elections.

    Plus given their poll today had Trump beating Sanders by 7, given in 2012 Obama won by 3, even on their same error as 2012 Trump would still lead Sanders by 2

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/blast-from-rasmussen-past/

    As five thirty eight point out Rasmussen had a strong 2004 and 2006.

    In 2000 and 2002 they were wank and after 2006 they've been wank as well.

    Their mid-term polling in 2018 was appalling. Maybe they subscribed to some ridiculous notion that turnout was going to be low.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    I think it is going to come as a big shock to the EU and those who want to remain that on this Boris will not be moved

    It is amazing that the EU cannot see, or just does not want to see, that this is not the TM government but a brexit government with an 80 seat majority and of course this is happening in the first year of a five year HOC allowing Boris the political leeway to ride out any storm
    I'm afraid you're missing the point.
    A No Deal Brexit will be worse for the UK than for the EU.
    No matter how strong willed Boris is the EU will make the best possible decisions for the EU 27 countries. They won't cut off their nose to spite their face but if Boris won't compromise neither will they bend over backwards to help him.
    Sorry for the mixed metaphors.
    And so it becomes the Australian deal announced in early June to give exporters time to adjust for 1st January

    I cannot see Boris, Cummings or the government shifting on this
    Did you ever explain why no deal last year was so terrible that you were about to leave the Conservative party and never vote for them again, but no deal this year doesn't seem to concern you that much at all?
  • Grant Shapps has confirmed HMG will not appeal the Heathrow decision

    Interesting and no doubt ends the third runway
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,429
    The Heathrow judgment is available at https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/r-friends-of-the-earth-v-secretary-of-state-for-transport-and-others/

    The key point is that there is a requirement under s5(8) Planning Act to include an explanation of how the Airports National Policy Statement takes account of Government Policy relating the mitigation of and adaptation to climate change.

    Was the Government's commitment to the Paris Agreement which the UK has ratified part of Government Policy? The DfT thought not and specifically did not consider it.

    The Court or Appeal considered the commitment was included within Government Policy and so not including such an explanation invalidated the ANPS.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    tlg86 said:



    Alastair likes the saying “to govern is to choose.” Unfortunately remainers didn’t want to make difficult choices. No remainers put forward radical changes to our welfare state and health service to adapt to our EU membership. So the public made the choice for them.

    The changes required to our welfare state needed to be implemented in 2005 before people arrived. And the Government of the time had both the numbers and the brand to do so...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited February 2020
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:



    In 2004 Rasmussen had Bush beating Kerry by 2, in 2008 Rasmussen had Obama beating McCain by 6 and as you say in 2016 they had Hillary ahead by 2 on the popular vote. So bar 2012 since they were founded in 2003 Rasmussen have a good record in presidential elections.

    Plus given their poll today had Trump beating Sanders by 7, given in 2012 Obama won by 3, even on their same error as 2012 Trump would still lead Sanders by 2

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/blast-from-rasmussen-past/

    As five thirty eight point out Rasmussen had a strong 2004 and 2006.

    In 2000 and 2002 they were wank and after 2006 they've been wank as well.

    Their mid-term polling in 2018 was appalling. Maybe they subscribed to some ridiculous notion that turnout was going to be low.
    No, as I have pointed out Rasmussen had a good 2008 and 2016 as well.

    They may not have a good midterms record but that is irrelevant as this is a presidential election so only their presidential elections record counts.

    Rasmussen Reports was founded in 2003, any other references to Scott Rasmussen pollsters prior were not the same polling company
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Grant Shapps has confirmed HMG will not appeal the Heathrow decision

    Interesting and no doubt ends the third runway

    Solves Boris's biggest problem without any of the blame - absolutely perfect for him locally.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    IanB2 said:

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    I think it is going to come as a big shock to the EU and those who want to remain that on this Boris will not be moved

    It is amazing that the EU cannot see, or just does not want to see, that this is not the TM government but a brexit government with an 80 seat majority and of course this is happening in the first year of a five year HOC allowing Boris the political leeway to ride out any storm
    I'm afraid you're missing the point.
    A No Deal Brexit will be worse for the UK than for the EU.
    No matter how strong willed Boris is the EU will make the best possible decisions for the EU 27 countries. They won't cut off their nose to spite their face but if Boris won't compromise neither will they bend over backwards to help him.
    Sorry for the mixed metaphors.
    And so it becomes the Australian deal announced in early June to give exporters time to adjust for 1st January

    I cannot see Boris, Cummings or the government shifting on this
    Did you ever explain why no deal last year was so terrible that you were about to leave the Conservative party and never vote for them again, but no deal this year doesn't seem to concern you that much at all?
    Now that it's rebranded Australian, he doesn't give a XXXX ... ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842


    If parliament keeps publishing 1000s of new laws and regulations each year without removing an equivalent number of old ones, why is anyone surprised that the remit of the courts expands?

    Perhaps Trump's withdrawal from the Paris accord wasn't so daft after all ? In addition their courts lean far more right at the top and would certainly not block say an extra runway at JFK.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,256

    Cyclefree said:

    Most likely but the government now call it trading an Australian terms with the EU, not no deal
    They are the same thing. If there is no deal, that is what it is. Let the government t be honest, for once. Their lies will catch up them in the end.
    I am not sure how many have noticed but no deal has recently been rebranded to an Australian deal and references to no deal banned

    It is very naughty but this is politics
    The opposition should perhaps start calling it the "trading on Afghan* terms" option :wink:

    *or insert other less developed (but WTO member) country less appealing than Australia as a potential role model
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Most likely but the government now call it trading an Australian terms with the EU, not no deal
    That's the same thing though.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979

    Grant Shapps has confirmed HMG will not appeal the Heathrow decision

    Interesting and no doubt ends the third runway

    I suspect Boris has had a hand in that. Makes it easy for him.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    edited February 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Ms Mulvey is entitled to her views. If she doesn't like how her "friends" think about her, she should find new and more congenial friends.

    Groupthink on the “liberal” side is as silly and dangerous as it is anywhere else. Those who dislike what Brexit is turning into need to ask ourselves some hard questions about why we have not been able to persuade people to our views. Not simply deplore or criticise others for being wrong.

    The same might also be said of Brexiteers who are intent on a very hard Brexit indeed on the basis of a 52/48 referendum victory. That is no way to build any sort of lasting consensus or settlement. Grinding your opponents’ faces in the dust never turns out well.
    Oh I don't approve of gratuitous rudeness towards people whose views you do not share. I'm afraid, however, that is a normal part of everyday life and it is odd that the snowflake Brexiteers want both to be able to trumpet their opinions and then not be judged for them (though I'm sure they would be happy to be judged approvingly).

    It betrays an intellectual cringe on their part, a subconscious recognition that the people whose opinions they esteem disdain their views. They should ask themselves why they esteem the opinions of those people and if they still want their esteem, why those people disdain their views.

    There is certainly a need for the Remainer fraternity to have a similar self-scrutiny. However, they feel it much less simply because things are going in a direction they strongly disapprove of and examining exactly why the country is going to hell in a handcart is much less relevant than the fact that it is.
    Agreed. I do think, though, that those who feel the country is going in the wrong direction need to learn from their mistakes and fight for what they want. I am not prepared to let my country go down the wrong path, even if there is little in practice I can do. But intelligent thought and self-reflection, particularly if it leads to better ideas from those who can, are worth it.

    If the “Remainers” (to use a short-hand) do not do the hard thinking about what sort of a society they want for the future and how to get it, they will keep on losing the battle of ideas, policies and elections.
    Brexiteers were the people for who the country was going in a direction they strongly disapproved of pre June 2016, when it was just as much a ‘fact’ that the country was going to hell in a handcart, ie not a fact, but an opinion some of them held, as the more extreme Remainers do now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    IanB2 said:

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    I think it is going to come as a big shock to the EU and those who want to remain that on this Boris will not be moved

    It is amazing that the EU cannot see, or just does not want to see, that this is not the TM government but a brexit government with an 80 seat majority and of course this is happening in the first year of a five year HOC allowing Boris the political leeway to ride out any storm
    I'm afraid you're missing the point.
    A No Deal Brexit will be worse for the UK than for the EU.
    No matter how strong willed Boris is the EU will make the best possible decisions for the EU 27 countries. They won't cut off their nose to spite their face but if Boris won't compromise neither will they bend over backwards to help him.
    Sorry for the mixed metaphors.
    And so it becomes the Australian deal announced in early June to give exporters time to adjust for 1st January

    I cannot see Boris, Cummings or the government shifting on this
    Did you ever explain why no deal last year was so terrible that you were about to leave the Conservative party and never vote for them again, but no deal this year doesn't seem to concern you that much at all?
    We have a Deal, the Withdrawal Agreement, the question is just whether we trade with the EU on Canada terms or Australia terms
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Grant Shapps has confirmed HMG will not appeal the Heathrow decision

    Interesting and no doubt ends the third runway

    How convienient for Johnson locally.
  • tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Agreed. I do think, though, that those who feel the country is going in the wrong direction need to learn from their mistakes and fight for what they want. I am not prepared to let my country go down the wrong path, even if there is little in practice I can do. But intelligent thought and self-reflection, particularly if it leads to better ideas from those who can, are worth it.

    If the “Remainers” (to use a short-hand) do not do the hard thinking about what a society they want for the future and how to get it, they will keep on losing the battle of ideas, policies and elections.

    Alastair likes the saying “to govern is to choose.” Unfortunately remainers didn’t want to make difficult choices. No remainers put forward radical changes to our welfare state and health service to adapt to our EU membership. So the public made the choice for them.
    You might be surprised to know that I agree with you there.

    A major problem now is that Leavers are continuing to self-radicalise. Positions that they would have laughed away as absurdly extreme fearmongering by Remainers before the referendum are now Leaver orthodoxy. The country is now heading for the government's preferred North Korean model and that will not be the end of the country's self-isolation.

    There will come a point when Leavers find that their pathological hatred of the EU is outweighed by other considerations. But the depths of that hatred are yet to be plumbed.
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,921
    7 by-elections today, Con defences in Cambridgeshire CC, South Cambridgeshire, and Hillingdon; Lab defences in Blaby, Cheshire East, and Manchester; Ind defence in Wrexham.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    I'm just reading about the attempted quarantine in the hotel in Tenerife. Christ almighty.

    Thickness and selfishness will be the undoing of us all.

    Got a link to any reports?
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8050471/Frightened-British-mother-coronavirus-hotel.html

    Found it.
    Another woman, quoted in the Mail, was on Breakfast Time this morning. Similar report.
    However, why is anyone there with children? Surely they should be at school. I'd be surprised if, at 45, she had two children under school age.
    Was half term last week in many places, might well be some where its a week later?
    Most private schools close for 14 days
    Not in the Spring (or Summer) HT’s. Correct for Autumn.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Groupthink on the “liberal” side is as silly and dangerous as it is anywhere else. Those who dislike what Brexit is turning into need to ask ourselves some hard questions about why we have not been able to persuade people to our views. Not simply deplore or criticise others for being wrong.

    The same might also be said of Brexiteers who are intent on a very hard Brexit indeed on the basis of a 52/48 referendum victory. That is no way to build any sort of lasting consensus or settlement. Grinding your opponents’ faces in the dust never turns out well.
    Oh I don't approve of gratuitous rudeness towards people whose views you do not share. I'm afraid, however, that is a normal part of everyday life and it is odd that the snowflake Brexiteers want both to be able to trumpet their opinions and then not be judged for them (though I'm sure they would be happy to be judged approvingly).

    It betrays an intellectual cringe on their part, a subconscious recognition that the people whose opinions they esteem disdain their views. They should ask themselves why they esteem the opinions of those people and if they still want their esteem, why those people disdain their views.

    There is certainly a need for the Remainer fraternity to have a similar self-scrutiny. However, they feel it much less simply because things are going in a direction they strongly disapprove of and examining exactly why the country is going to hell in a handcart is much less relevant than the fact that it is.
    Agreed. I do think, though, that those who feel the country is going in the wrong direction need to learn from their mistakes and fight for what they want. I am not prepared to let my country go down the wrong path, even if there is little in practice I can do. But intelligent thought and self-reflection, particularly if it leads to better ideas from those who can, are worth it.

    If the “Remainers” (to use a short-hand) do not do the hard thinking about what a society they want for the future and how to get it, they will keep on losing the battle of ideas, policies and elections.
    Alastair likes the saying “to govern is to choose.” Unfortunately remainers didn’t want to make difficult choices. No remainers put forward radical changes to our welfare state and health service to adapt to our EU membership. So the public made the choice for them.
    Well now we have a Brexiteer government which is not honest about the choices we now have to make and lies on an almost hourly basis about the NI Protocol and the agreements it has signed.

    So let’s see if the current government is willing to make hard choices and be honest with voters about them.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    I think it is going to come as a big shock to the EU and those who want to remain that on this Boris will not be moved

    It is amazing that the EU cannot see, or just does not want to see, that this is not the TM government but a brexit government with an 80 seat majority and of course this is happening in the first year of a five year HOC allowing Boris the political leeway to ride out any storm
    I'm afraid you're missing the point.
    A No Deal Brexit will be worse for the UK than for the EU.
    No matter how strong willed Boris is the EU will make the best possible decisions for the EU 27 countries. They won't cut off their nose to spite their face but if Boris won't compromise neither will they bend over backwards to help him.
    Sorry for the mixed metaphors.
    And so it becomes the Australian deal announced in early June to give exporters time to adjust for 1st January

    I cannot see Boris, Cummings or the government shifting on this
    Did you ever explain why no deal last year was so terrible that you were about to leave the Conservative party and never vote for them again, but no deal this year doesn't seem to concern you that much at all?
    We have a Deal, the Withdrawal Agreement, the question is just whether we trade with the EU on Canada terms or Australia terms
    The "deal" simply postpones the damage Mr G was up in arms about from this year to next year.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    Which is sensible, as Japan had appeared to have lost control of what was going on.
    This might just give them time to get the outbreak contained.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    I'm just reading about the attempted quarantine in the hotel in Tenerife. Christ almighty.

    Thickness and selfishness will be the undoing of us all.

    Got a link to any reports?
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8050471/Frightened-British-mother-coronavirus-hotel.html

    Found it.
    Another woman, quoted in the Mail, was on Breakfast Time this morning. Similar report.
    However, why is anyone there with children? Surely they should be at school. I'd be surprised if, at 45, she had two children under school age.
    Was half term last week in many places, might well be some where its a week later?
    Most private schools close for 14 days
    Allows the rich Tory voters cheaper holiday with the added benefit of being away from the proles. Makes a complete mockery of the criminalisation of taking kids out of school, when the ones who get the best university places are allowed away.
    Garbage in, garbage out.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,256
    kinabalu said:

    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.

    I would caution you against storing up too much belief in Boris "Boris" Johnson. Remember how he accepted a border in the Irish Sea having sworn that he would never do so? That was instructive. The notion that he might cave on the FTA comes from the insight that he does what is most politically expedient for him at any point in time. He might well judge that to be "cave in" and do a deal mainly on the EU's terms. Then again he might judge it to be walk away and go clean break and WTO. Which benefits him most? Which harms him the least? Answer this and you can predict with complete certainty which way he will jump. I think he will cave because (i) he will fear the economic consequences of WTO and (ii) he has the political capital and skill to sell it to Leavers. Of course I could be wrong, it happens, but I am reasonably certain on this one.
    I agree with much of that, but it's depressing that we're using phrases such as "cave in". The UK and EU should both approach the negotiations trying to get the best for their respective sides. Neither has a chance of getting everything, so if there's a deal there will be some compromise on both sides. That's not caving in and should not be seen as a bad thing.

    "No deal" (with, in reality, lots of little side deals on various matters) might be the best achievable outcome from the point of view of UK negotiators*, but it's being set up as a battle whereby the only honourable outcome for the UK is to walk away and not compromise on anything or to get exactly what we want. That mindset makes it harder to negotiate the best (from a mutual point of view) outcome.

    *It's not for me, but then I'd be quite happy with continued single market membership or rejoin. If divergence is really important to UK negotiators then it might be that WTO is the best available option satisfying that.
  • IanB2 said:

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    I think it is going to come as a big shock to the EU and those who want to remain that on this Boris will not be moved

    It is amazing that the EU cannot see, or just does not want to see, that this is not the TM government but a brexit government with an 80 seat majority and of course this is happening in the first year of a five year HOC allowing Boris the political leeway to ride out any storm
    I'm afraid you're missing the point.
    A No Deal Brexit will be worse for the UK than for the EU.
    No matter how strong willed Boris is the EU will make the best possible decisions for the EU 27 countries. They won't cut off their nose to spite their face but if Boris won't compromise neither will they bend over backwards to help him.
    Sorry for the mixed metaphors.
    And so it becomes the Australian deal announced in early June to give exporters time to adjust for 1st January

    I cannot see Boris, Cummings or the government shifting on this
    Did you ever explain why no deal last year was so terrible that you were about to leave the Conservative party and never vote for them again, but no deal this year doesn't seem to concern you that much at all?
    I never said I would not vote for them again

    As far as brexit is concerned the biggest enemy to the EU is the EU themselves trying to prevent the UK becoming an independent trading nation and requiring us to follow their laws and jurisdiction.

    We may as well remain in those circumstances, so unless Barnier and others come to their senses, Boris will take us out and will no doubt have solid support for doing so

    It is not my ideal solution but being subservient to the EU is worse
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Groupthink on the “liberal” side is as silly and dangerous as it is anywhere else. Those who dislike what Brexit is turning into need to ask ourselves some hard questions about why we have not been able to persuade people to our views. Not simply deplore or criticise others for being wrong.

    The same might also be said of Brexiteers who are intent on a very hard Brexit indeed on the basis of a 52/48 referendum victory. That is no way to build any sort of lasting consensus or settlement. Grinding your opponents’ faces in the dust never turns out well.
    Oh I don't approve of gratuitous rudeness towards people whose views you do not share. I'm afraid, however, that is a normal part of everyday life and it is odd that the snowflake Brexiteers want both to be able to trumpet their opinions and then not be judged for them (though I'm sure they would be happy to be judged approvingly).

    It betrays an intellectual cringe on their part, a subconscious recognition that the people whose opinions they esteem disdain their views. They should ask themselves why they esteem the opinions of those people and if they still want their esteem, why those people disdain their views.

    There is certainly a need for the Remainer fraternity to have a similar self-scrutiny. However, they feel it much less simply because things are going in a direction they strongly disapprove of and examining exactly why the country is going to hell in a handcart is much less relevant than the fact that it is.
    Agreed. I do think, though, that those who feel the country is going in the wrong direction need to learn from their mistakes and fight for what they want. I am not prepared to let my country go down the wrong path, even if there is little in practice I can do. But intelligent thought and self-reflection, particularly if it leads to better ideas from those who can, are worth it.

    If the “Remainers” (to use a short-hand) do not do the hard thinking about what sort of a society they want for the future and how to get it, they will keep on losing the battle of ideas, policies and elections.
    Brexiteers were the people for who the country was going in a direction they strongly disapproved of pre June 2016, when it was just as much a ‘fact’ that the country was going to hell in a handcart, ie not a fact, but an opinion some of them held, as the more extreme Remainers do now.
    True. That’s politics. But when the wind changes those who want a different direction need to have done the hard thinking about what they do want and how to get there. Not simply sulked. Now is the time for those not in power to do that hard thinking.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    edited February 2020
    Nigelb said:
    Exactly what I have been suggesting.

    If we did this now, combined with a real tightening up of unnecessary foreign travel, we could really smooth out that pandemic curve.

    But no, it looks like we are choosing a different path. I hope our experts know what they are doing and aren't just thinking about the damage to the economy.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164

    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Agreed. I do think, though, that those who feel the country is going in the wrong direction need to learn from their mistakes and fight for what they want. I am not prepared to let my country go down the wrong path, even if there is little in practice I can do. But intelligent thought and self-reflection, particularly if it leads to better ideas from those who can, are worth it.

    If the “Remainers” (to use a short-hand) do not do the hard thinking about what a society they want for the future and how to get it, they will keep on losing the battle of ideas, policies and elections.

    Alastair likes the saying “to govern is to choose.” Unfortunately remainers didn’t want to make difficult choices. No remainers put forward radical changes to our welfare state and health service to adapt to our EU membership. So the public made the choice for them.
    You might be surprised to know that I agree with you there.

    A major problem now is that Leavers are continuing to self-radicalise. Positions that they would have laughed away as absurdly extreme fearmongering by Remainers before the referendum are now Leaver orthodoxy. The country is now heading for the government's preferred North Korean model and that will not be the end of the country's self-isolation.

    There will come a point when Leavers find that their pathological hatred of the EU is outweighed by other considerations. But the depths of that hatred are yet to be plumbed.
    Perhaps, and I certainly don’t like the spending spree being talked about -Javid’s resignation speech was excellent.

    I have a theory that the reason for the polarisation (not just in the UK) in politics is that things are actually quite stable. Perhaps a few tangible bad things might break this.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    It was interesting in the labour leader debates, including Thornberry, when asked if they would ban private schools they all said no

    It was. I'm not sure that even the rather timid removal of the tax breaks will survive as a policy. Private schools would appear to have sacred cow status. They have a special place in the heart of millions of people who cannot, and will never be able to, afford to use them. It beats me, it really does. And beaten, I am, for now. I just have to accept that most people do not view this issue the way I do. But one day ...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074



    IanB2 said:

    Just had a Guardian (I know) newsflash that the Govt will consider walking away from the Brexit transition talks in June

    They might as well. The timetable is near impossible. But we all knew that back in December when the Blond Buffoon said "No Extensions".
    Just grandstanding from Boris. He'll capitulate, but he knows his base will swallow it if he's able to paint the right picture in advance.
    I don't think he will.
    Of course he won't. The notion he will is only coming from those who didn't believe in Brexit in the first place and don't see the point of it.
    I think it is going to come as a big shock to the EU and those who want to remain that on this Boris will not be moved

    It is amazing that the EU cannot see, or just does not want to see, that this is not the TM government but a brexit government with an 80 seat majority and of course this is happening in the first year of a five year HOC allowing Boris the political leeway to ride out any storm
    I'm afraid you're missing the point.
    A No Deal Brexit will be worse for the UK than for the EU.
    No matter how strong willed Boris is the EU will make the best possible decisions for the EU 27 countries. They won't cut off their nose to spite their face but if Boris won't compromise neither will they bend over backwards to help him.
    Sorry for the mixed metaphors.
    And so it becomes the Australian deal announced in early June to give exporters time to adjust for 1st January

    I cannot see Boris, Cummings or the government shifting on this
    Did you ever explain why no deal last year was so terrible that you were about to leave the Conservative party and never vote for them again, but no deal this year doesn't seem to concern you that much at all?
    I never said I would not vote for them again

    As far as brexit is concerned the biggest enemy to the EU is the EU themselves trying to prevent the UK becoming an independent trading nation and requiring us to follow their laws and jurisdiction.

    We may as well remain in those circumstances, so unless Barnier and others come to their senses, Boris will take us out and will no doubt have solid support for doing so

    It is not my ideal solution but being subservient to the EU is worse
    Worse than being subservient to the WTO?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    HYUFD said:
    Dont the right wing press normally think anyone moaning about mere words is a snowflake? Why is it different for a right wing journalist one wonders?
    They also moan about Identity Politics (happens a lot on PB as well)

    They then tell us that Brexit is important because it is about identity, not economics....

    :D:D
    It's almost as if the Right is using the Left's twin weapons of speech policing and identity politics against them... :smile:
    Well, let us hear less complaints about those "weapons" from the right then ;)
    Oh, no, we won't do that. Because that's when we borrow our third and most potent weapon from the other side - hypocrisy!
  • eadric said:

    Calamitous decision on Heathrow. Boris is a nonce.

    Please explain
  • Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    I don't know why Boris hates courts - look at the problem they've just resolved for him

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1232972382287081472

    China can build a hospital in 6 days. We cant decide where to build a runway in over 6000 days and counting. Wonder which country will do better over the next century......
    China doesn't have that pesky problem of courts ruling against these things.

    It is politically very good for Boris, but for the UK bad news. We need airport expansion, regardless of what the eco-fascists say.
    I could accept it if we made a decision not to have any more runways for environmental reasons, or if we decided Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted or Birmingham were best placed for it, but not being able to come to any decision indefinitely is worse than all the above options.
    And this ruling of course isn't just about airports...

    From now on, every infrastructure spending decision in the UK could face legal challenge if it doesn't comply with the Climate Change Act, which mandates virtually zero emissions by 2050.

    It's not clear that's what MPs intended when they signed up to the 2050 target, but in today's court ruling, it's what they've got.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51658693

    Literally every infrastructure project could be deemed against this if you think about it. No new roads or airports thats for certain.

    If the government let this pass unchallenged, we are quickly going to become a country of Luddites as the eco-fascists will have the ability to use this case law to challenge absolutely everything.

    Any attempts by Boris to "level up the North" is going to be bogged down in courts for year after year after year.
    Yes, this is a hilariously poor piece of case law for the UK's future prosperity.
    Based on lots of optimism from the IPCC about carbon capture. Ironically almost all carbon gains have been from switching from coal burning to natural gas burning.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-the-race-looks-like-if-biden-wins-or-doesnt-win-south-carolina/

    Good article on the effect of the South Carolina outcome on the rest of the race. Or at least I think it's good because it comports with what I already believed. Specifically:

    - Biden is the substantial- but not overwhelming- favourite to win SC
    - A win for Sanders in SC pretty much sews up the race
    - A loss for Sanders in SC leaves Sanders in the lead but significantly complicates things for him, and likely puts him within the range where it's plausible that he could enter the convention with a plurality but not end up getting the nomination
    - Biden is the biggest barrier to a Sanders win, not Bloomberg, Buttigieg or Klobuchar. That's because of all the moderates he's the only one who's really drawing away a lot of potential Sanders support. Also, if any of the others drop out and Biden is the clear challenger to Sanders, a lot of their support will find him acceptable as the stop Sanders candidate. Whereas if Biden dropped out, Sanders would get a lot of his supporters and the rest wouldn't have a moderate they could coalesce behind (Klobuchar might go after ST, but I doubt either Bloomberg or Buttigieg will)

    What's interesting in the article is how different a narrow Biden win looks from a big win. It'd be nice to know how much of that is just predictive (i.e. a vote in one state correlates with the vote in others, and may be a better predictor than polls) and how much is due to expectations for the media cycle. I actually think the media would report a 2% Biden lead exactly the same way as a 7% lead. Once you get above 9 or below 1 you might start seeing some distinction.
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