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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why Eddie Mair should be first choice to replace Paxo

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  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Kirsty Wark would make a superb replacement for Paxo. ; )

    Too old, and another Scot.

    Newsnight need to find a 'new blood', to refresh what's become a stale format.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    George Eaton:

    Labour's bombardment of the Lib Dems shows it is going all out for a majority
    Rather than preparing for another hung parliament, Labour is focused on "crushing" Clegg's party.


    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/05/labours-bombardment-lib-dems-shows-it-going-all-out-majority

    This parliament is an excellent opportunity for both Labour and the Conservatives to target the LDs and attempt to remove an opponent from future contests.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    MrJones said:

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/05/04/majority-support-rent-controls/

    "56% say the government should introduce rent controls – and the majority say governments should be more willing to intervene in markets generally"

    Clever really. Old Labour trying to improve life for the average person ended up making them more conservative whereas New Labour allying with big business to destroy any kind of financial security at all let alone prosperity will successfully revive commiedom.


    Yay! A prices and incomes policy! I remember one of those it was such a great success the first time around that I can't remember why we got rid of it. Also capital controls, lets have those back - we should not expect rich buggers to be able to take their money out of the country, fifty-quid a head should be enough for working folk to spend on their holiday. Well, all right, maybe inflation has got in the way and maybe £50 for a fortnight is no longer enough but whatever the amount is it should be decided by Mr. Milliband. He is the only person, lets face it, to decide how much you should be allowed to spend on your holiday, how much rent you should pay, how much electricity you can use and, frankly, how much you should pay for food.

    However, times have moved on. Mr. Milliband does not want to return to the 1970s. You will therefore be forced to undergo state minimums of exercise, be barred from buying tobacco and have you booze rationed, unless you are on benefits.
  • NextNext Posts: 826
    DavidL said:

    I am beginning to seriously wonder if the EU actually wants the UK to remain as members. They are certainly testing the relationship to destruction: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10810978/UK-anger-over-secret-EU-financial-transaction-tax-plan.html

    If they want a tory party that is even largely committed to campaigning for "in" ticking off Osborne in this way is a really bad move. The conspiracy theorist would of course assume that this is one of the "concessions" Dave is going to achieve in due course but you do have to wonder.

    I think we should introduce our own FTT - French Tipple Tax. Anyone who drinks French wine anywhere in Europe should pay an amount "per sip".

    Good for raising revenue. Good for health.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Personally I would most like Boulton to replace Paxo - mainly because I so enjoyed his rumble with Alistair Campbell on election day.

    I think that Newsnight would be small beer for Adam Boulton.

    I agree with you on his spat with Campbell at GE2010. Great moment

  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited May 2014
    Not sure if posted before:

    UKIP @UKIP

    UKIP is delighted to announce that @RogerHelmerMEP has been selected as its candidate to fight the Newark by-election

    Guido Fawkes ‏@GuidoFawkes 22s

    Roger Helmer is UKIP's candidate for the Newark by-election http://guyfawk.es/RofKN0 "A brave choice"
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    taffys said:

    ''but you do have to wonder.''

    Plus we have the limp wristed weakness of the words that Osborne uses that are so infuriating, and such a boon to UKIP . Words like ''entitled'' and ''challenge''

    The time for words like this with Europe are long gone, surely.

    The most fundamental problem we have with the EU is how we are going to manage a relationship if the EZ countries start acting and voting as a bloc in their own interests. This would seem to be a good example of exactly that. The guarantees I would be looking for from Cameron would be the ability to stop this. If we can't get these then I for one would vote to leave with a heavy heart.

    Any which way to produce this the week after the case in the ECJ was dismissed for being premature and 2 weeks before the Euros is playing with fire.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    isam said:

    "...the political class is really only part of a bigger metropolitan class, which is as coherent and interconnected as any more traditionally understood establishment, and which includes the broadcast media, publishing, the academic world and so on. There is a remarkable convergence of views within these groups, who tend to hold the same prejudices and uphold the same orthodoxies, and they have essentially made London their own.

    The truth is that, far from being individualistic and free-thinking, London's metropolitan elites are profoundly sheep-like, while retaining a view of the people "outside" as being unable to understand issues in the way they can"

    http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/whittles-london-may-14-metropolitan-sheep-peter-whittle-westminster

    The type of people who think Russell Brand is "anti-establishment"
    Russell Brand is an intellectually incoherent anti-business, anti-globalisation, anti-progress idiot.

    The Paxman interview with him just demonstrates what a ridiculous lightweight he is.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m

    UKIP names Roger Helmer as its Newark by-election candidate. Remarkable choice given his toxic views.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Why Eddie Mair should be first choice to replace Paxo

    Good spot Mike, but does he have the all important left-leaning credentials?

    Mair's a Scot. That should rule him out.
    In what respect? Does he not speak clearly? Does he need subtitles or something?

    Carnyx, you would be better asking a turnip the question, you would get a more sensible reply.
    It did not seem a very funny joke whichever way one looked at it, so I genuinely wondered if he was being serious and if so what reasons could legitimately be adduced for such a statement even before a successful result in the referendum.

    However, my reply did allow for some irony just in case - I have been known to point out the (then) 888 button to Londoner friends complaining the couldn't understand the peripatetic Glasgow philosopher Mr R. Nesbit.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Next said:

    DavidL said:

    I am beginning to seriously wonder if the EU actually wants the UK to remain as members. They are certainly testing the relationship to destruction: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10810978/UK-anger-over-secret-EU-financial-transaction-tax-plan.html

    If they want a tory party that is even largely committed to campaigning for "in" ticking off Osborne in this way is a really bad move. The conspiracy theorist would of course assume that this is one of the "concessions" Dave is going to achieve in due course but you do have to wonder.

    I think we should introduce our own FTT - French Tipple Tax. Anyone who drinks French wine anywhere in Europe should pay an amount "per sip".

    Good for raising revenue. Good for health.

    I would be content with an opt out of the Common Agricultural Policy myself.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    This would seem to be a good example of exactly that.

    In the end there's nothing we can do to stop them If they want to f8ck their own economies by having a Financial transaction tax, that is up to them, whether we are in or out of the EU.

    It won't apply to us, or to other EU countries who don't want to go into the thing.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,721
    Pulpstar said:

    Lennon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lennon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Me, dividing up Yorkshire is an act of heresy.

    Politically speaking North Yorkshire and the East Riding of Yorkshire are solid blue with the People's Republic staunchly Red (Except Clegg's bit) with West Yorkshire being a belle-weather for the country !
    I think that Mr Prescott may disagree with you about the East Riding being solid Blue! (Unless you are trying to claim that the fine Yorkshire city of Hull isn't actually in Yorkshire?)
    Well there is always the odd seat that 'isn't'. But 4 out of 5 seats are currently Conservative in the region.
    Maybe I am missing something but I make it 3 safe seats each - Hull East, Hull North, Hull West and Hessle all Labour. Beverley and Holderness, Howden and Haltemprice and East Yorkshire all Conservative.
    The East Riding of Yorkshire is divided into 5 constituencies, each of which has its own Member of Parliament (MP).

    Constituency Member of Parliament (MP)
    Beverley and Holderness Mr Graham Stuart
    Brigg and Goole Mr Andrew Percy
    East Yorkshire The Rt. Hon. Greg Knight, FCA
    Haltemprice and Howden The Rt. Hon. David Davis
    Hull West and Hessle
    The Rt. Hon. Alan Johnson

    http://www2.eastriding.gov.uk/

    Pah - that's the 'Modern' East Riding - I was thinking of the traditional and ceremonial East Riding given the original point being made by Mr Dancer. (And I accept that I didn't count Brigg and Goole - but its a weird cross-county seat). We have probably taken this further than it really needs to go however... ; )
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    isam said:

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m

    UKIP names Roger Helmer as its Newark by-election candidate. Remarkable choice given his toxic views.

    What toxic views?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    BobaFett said:

    I see there has been a Labour surge* with Populus.

    I'm surprised at how few posts there are on this - when we had a dead heat the other day you couldn't move for them!!!

    I've missed it. Can you post numbers?
    Populus ‏@PopulusPolls 33s

    New Populus VI: Lab 36 (+1); Cons 33 (-1); LD 8 (-1); UKIP 14 (=); Oth 9 (+1) Tables http://popu.lu/s_140506
    Thanks. :) MOE.
    Lib Dems on eight points. I'm not really sure they should be included in the debates at that point.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Grandiose said:

    Not sure if posted before:

    UKIP @UKIP

    UKIP is delighted to announce that @RogerHelmerMEP has been selected as its candidate to fight the Newark by-election

    Guido Fawkes ‏@GuidoFawkes 22s

    Roger Helmer is UKIP's candidate for the Newark by-election http://guyfawk.es/RofKN0 "A brave choice"

    Oh lord, this going to be fiery.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited May 2014
    MikeK said:

    isam said:

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m

    UKIP names Roger Helmer as its Newark by-election candidate. Remarkable choice given his toxic views.

    What toxic views?
    All of them but for example

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 3m
    BREAKING: UKIP select Roger Helmer to fight Newark byelection - has called homosexuality “abnormal and undesirable"
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited May 2014
    UKIP Press release:

    http://www.ukip.org/ukip_announces_newark_parliamentary_by_election_candidate

    UKIP leader Nigel Farage said: “I had a feeling from pretty early on that Roger would emerge as the UKIP candidate in this contest. It did not surprise me in the slightest that he performed so well at the hustings or that NEC members were keen to endorse him.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    I see my prediction about Yorkshire dominating the thread is threatening to come true.

    Luxury...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    taffys said:

    This would seem to be a good example of exactly that.

    In the end there's nothing we can do to stop them If they want to f8ck their own economies by having a Financial transaction tax, that is up to them, whether we are in or out of the EU.

    It won't apply to us, or to other EU countries who don't want to go into the thing.

    IIRC, it applies to trade in all European companies, irrespective of where the transaction takes place. So, attempts to evade the tax by - say - trading shares of Vivendi in New York would not succeed.

    However, I don't know how it deals with GDRs/ADRs (i.e. the underlying shares stay in the possession of a bank, but you trade a piece of paper that allows to take delivery of the underlying if you desire). History suggests that financial markets tend to find a way around regulation.

    It is, of course, worth remembering that in the UK, we already have an FTT on transactions in UK shares, so this is a case of the EU imitating us.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    Well at least they didn't succumb to tokenism!

    He does rather seem like a UKIP stereotype... at least The Sun will guarantee a lot of publicity, and maybe UKIP think that will work in Helmer's favour
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    edited May 2014
    Socrates said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    BobaFett said:

    I see there has been a Labour surge* with Populus.

    I'm surprised at how few posts there are on this - when we had a dead heat the other day you couldn't move for them!!!

    I've missed it. Can you post numbers?
    Populus ‏@PopulusPolls 33s

    New Populus VI: Lab 36 (+1); Cons 33 (-1); LD 8 (-1); UKIP 14 (=); Oth 9 (+1) Tables http://popu.lu/s_140506
    Thanks. :) MOE.
    Lib Dems on eight points. I'm not really sure they should be included in the debates at that point.
    What do you think the hurdle should be? Average of 15% in ICM polls in the six months preceding the election?
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    TGOHF said:

    MikeK said:

    isam said:

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m

    UKIP names Roger Helmer as its Newark by-election candidate. Remarkable choice given his toxic views.

    What toxic views?
    All of them but for example

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 3m
    BREAKING: UKIP select Roger Helmer to fight Newark byelection - has called homosexuality “abnormal and undesirable"
    Also waded in on rape with all the clumsiness of a bull in a china shop: http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/ken-on-rape-badly-phrased-but-basically-right/
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Has anyone got the uncooked Populus numbers?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    BobaFett said:

    I see there has been a Labour surge* with Populus.

    I'm surprised at how few posts there are on this - when we had a dead heat the other day you couldn't move for them!!!

    I've missed it. Can you post numbers?
    Populus ‏@PopulusPolls 33s

    New Populus VI: Lab 36 (+1); Cons 33 (-1); LD 8 (-1); UKIP 14 (=); Oth 9 (+1) Tables http://popu.lu/s_140506
    Thanks. :) MOE.
    Lib Dems on eight points. I'm not really sure they should be included in the debates at that point.
    What do you think the hurdle should be? Average of 15% in the polls of ICM in the six months preceding the election?
    An average in double figures in the month before the debate would seem reasonable. Though maybe we should lower it to a 5% threshold to be nice to the Lib Dems.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    History suggests that financial markets tend to find a way around regulation.

    Generally by moving to another jurisdiction.

    It isn't what the EU is doing that's annoying, we all expect that. Its the incredible girly wet flannel nature of our response, with UKIP pounding on the door.

    Osborne should simply say that if there's a financial transaction tax, it will mean the UK can no longer afford payments to the EU, and will be suspending them as soon as its implemented.

    Repeat: UKIP is pounding on the f8cking door. show some backbone.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    taffys said:

    This would seem to be a good example of exactly that.

    In the end there's nothing we can do to stop them If they want to f8ck their own economies by having a Financial transaction tax, that is up to them, whether we are in or out of the EU.

    It won't apply to us, or to other EU countries who don't want to go into the thing.

    Eh, yes it will. The idea, as I understand it, is that at the very least any French or German bank trading in London will have to account for the FTT to their country of origin and we would have the responsibility to collect it.

    In reality London is dominant in financial services so we would be collecting a tax for the rest of Europe which would be a major disincentive to trade in London as opposed to New York (who don't trade quite as many dollars as London at the moment) or Singapore. We would be at risk of losing a major industry and a significant part of our tax base whilst other EU countries would be barely affected. It would be totally unacceptable and Osborne is right to be angry.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Helmer seems like a mistake. It's much better to go with people like Diane James or Paul Nuttall. The campaign will be focused on this guy's eccentric views now, rather than the party platform.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Selecting Roger Helmer is a mistake IMO. He represents exactly the kind of Kipper that they've been trying to distance the party from.
  • NextNext Posts: 826
    Socrates said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    BobaFett said:

    I see there has been a Labour surge* with Populus.

    I'm surprised at how few posts there are on this - when we had a dead heat the other day you couldn't move for them!!!

    I've missed it. Can you post numbers?
    Populus ‏@PopulusPolls 33s

    New Populus VI: Lab 36 (+1); Cons 33 (-1); LD 8 (-1); UKIP 14 (=); Oth 9 (+1) Tables http://popu.lu/s_140506
    Thanks. :) MOE.
    Lib Dems on eight points. I'm not really sure they should be included in the debates at that point.
    What do you think the hurdle should be? Average of 15% in the polls of ICM in the six months preceding the election?
    An average in double figures in the month before the debate would seem reasonable. Though maybe we should lower it to a 5% threshold to be nice to the Lib Dems.
    An average of greater than 10% in the polls OR more than 10 existing MPs would cover it .
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited May 2014
    Grandiose said:

    TGOHF said:

    MikeK said:

    isam said:

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m

    UKIP names Roger Helmer as its Newark by-election candidate. Remarkable choice given his toxic views.

    What toxic views?
    All of them but for example

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 3m
    BREAKING: UKIP select Roger Helmer to fight Newark byelection - has called homosexuality “abnormal and undesirable"
    Also waded in on rape with all the clumsiness of a bull in a china shop: http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/ken-on-rape-badly-phrased-but-basically-right/
    Was what he said there really so bad? Would anyone argue that one isn't much worse than the other? He said right at the off...

    "In both cases an offence has been committed, and the perpetrators deserve to be convicted and punished"

    Although would have to say that if a girl says "stop" you stop, end of. Don't want to get misunderstood.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,721
    Socrates said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    BobaFett said:

    I see there has been a Labour surge* with Populus.

    I'm surprised at how few posts there are on this - when we had a dead heat the other day you couldn't move for them!!!

    I've missed it. Can you post numbers?
    Populus ‏@PopulusPolls 33s

    New Populus VI: Lab 36 (+1); Cons 33 (-1); LD 8 (-1); UKIP 14 (=); Oth 9 (+1) Tables http://popu.lu/s_140506
    Thanks. :) MOE.
    Lib Dems on eight points. I'm not really sure they should be included in the debates at that point.
    What do you think the hurdle should be? Average of 15% in the polls of ICM in the six months preceding the election?
    An average in double figures in the month before the debate would seem reasonable. Though maybe we should lower it to a 5% threshold to be nice to the Lib Dems.
    In danger of including the Greens as well on that basis. (Although a 5 way debate would be interesting...) (Also - what % would the SNP need to be on in Scotland to be above the 5% GB target :-) )
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    DavidL said:

    taffys said:

    This would seem to be a good example of exactly that.

    In the end there's nothing we can do to stop them If they want to f8ck their own economies by having a Financial transaction tax, that is up to them, whether we are in or out of the EU.

    It won't apply to us, or to other EU countries who don't want to go into the thing.

    Eh, yes it will. The idea, as I understand it, is that at the very least any French or German bank trading in London will have to account for the FTT to their country of origin and we would have the responsibility to collect it.

    In reality London is dominant in financial services so we would be collecting a tax for the rest of Europe which would be a major disincentive to trade in London as opposed to New York (who don't trade quite as many dollars as London at the moment) or Singapore. We would be at risk of losing a major industry and a significant part of our tax base whilst other EU countries would be barely affected. It would be totally unacceptable and Osborne is right to be angry.
    @rcs1000 Is this the case? Or would a London to Frankfurt trade be in the same situation as a New York to Frankfurt trade?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Selecting Roger Helmer is a mistake IMO. He represents exactly the kind of Kipper that they've been trying to distance the party from.

    You mean he represents the vast majority of hardcore Kipper support ?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Socrates said:

    Helmer seems like a mistake. It's much better to go with people like Diane James or Paul Nuttall. The campaign will be focused on this guy's eccentric views now, rather than the party platform.

    It's not his fault but every time I see his picture I want to shout at the computer screen "Don't tell him Pike!"
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Socrates said:

    An average in double figures in the month before the debate would seem reasonable. Though maybe we should lower it to a 5% threshold to be nice to the Lib Dems.

    I would say less than 40% of the first placed party, as that is quite an efficient way of allowing us to deal with an increasing multiplicity of parties.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Kirsty Wark would make a superb replacement for Paxo. ; )

    Simon, hopefully not
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    It would be totally unacceptable and Osborne is right to be angry.

    If this is really true then Osborne isn't angry at all. He's being a f8cking useless little girl, as are all the tories. He should be threatening to f8cking nuke Paris.

    Repeat again: UKIP is pounding on the door. The time for playing this game is long over.

    You bring in an FTT, we stop paying for the CAP. We stop paying full stop. It should be said now. The government are far, far too weak.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Selecting Roger Helmer is a mistake IMO. He represents exactly the kind of Kipper that they've been trying to distance the party from.

    @steve_hawkes: Nigel Farage says Roger Helmer "is a massively experienced and respected figure on the national political stage"

    Translation: He's not going to win the seat and challenge for Party Leadership...

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    I tend to agree with those who think selecting Helmer is a mistake for UKIP. At a GE election he would be a reasonable candidate but in the heat of a by election the chances of him going "off message" are high and he carries the risk of tainting the brand.

    From the tories' point of view this is probably the first bit of good news re this by election so far. Another Diane James could have been a serious problem.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Or would a London to Frankfurt trade be in the same situation as a New York to Frankfurt trade?

    A UK-based bank trading with a US-based bank would be exempt, as neither country would have adopted the tax.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Lennon said:

    Socrates said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    BobaFett said:

    I see there has been a Labour surge* with Populus.

    I'm surprised at how few posts there are on this - when we had a dead heat the other day you couldn't move for them!!!

    I've missed it. Can you post numbers?
    Populus ‏@PopulusPolls 33s

    New Populus VI: Lab 36 (+1); Cons 33 (-1); LD 8 (-1); UKIP 14 (=); Oth 9 (+1) Tables http://popu.lu/s_140506
    Thanks. :) MOE.
    Lib Dems on eight points. I'm not really sure they should be included in the debates at that point.
    What do you think the hurdle should be? Average of 15% in the polls of ICM in the six months preceding the election?
    An average in double figures in the month before the debate would seem reasonable. Though maybe we should lower it to a 5% threshold to be nice to the Lib Dems.
    In danger of including the Greens as well on that basis. (Although a 5 way debate would be interesting...) (Also - what % would the SNP need to be on in Scotland to be above the 5% GB target :-) )
    If you are including the Lib Dems in a Euro debate then you need to include the Greens.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2014
    On the FTT: It remains to be seen what actually transpires, but it's an interesting example of a case where it's not obvious if it's better to be In or Out.

    If we're In, we can challenge it in the European Court, and insist on there being no discrimination against non-Eurozone countries and/or those countries not using the 'Enhanced Cooperation' mechanism. On the downside, that might not actually work.

    If we're Out, then we have zero say in the matter. Of course we can tell them to get stuffed as far as levying it in London is concerned. On the downside, we can't prevent them from banning EU-domiciled companies from using the London market if we refuse to play ball with them.

    Note that, if we leave the EU but stay in the EEA, we could potentially be vulnerable to the worst of all worlds - no say in the formulation of policy, but obliged to implement it.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Emily Maitlis at 6-1 for me.The beeb are far too pale,male and stale.Can the other candidates beat this perceptive insight?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27224726
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    taffys said:

    It would be totally unacceptable and Osborne is right to be angry.

    If this is really true then Osborne isn't angry at all. He's being a f8cking useless little girl, as are all the tories. He should be threatening to f8cking nuke Paris.

    Repeat again: UKIP is pounding on the door. The time for playing this game is long over.

    You bring in an FTT, we stop paying for the CAP. We stop paying full stop. It should be said now. The government are far, far too weak.

    Given Inner London's contribution to GDP and the tax take of the country it would be all of us that suffer. We all love to hate the Ruski oligarchs and banskters in Mayfair and the City, but I know where the country's bread is buttered !
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited May 2014
    isam said:

    Grandiose said:

    TGOHF said:

    MikeK said:

    isam said:

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m

    UKIP names Roger Helmer as its Newark by-election candidate. Remarkable choice given his toxic views.

    What toxic views?
    All of them but for example

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 3m
    BREAKING: UKIP select Roger Helmer to fight Newark byelection - has called homosexuality “abnormal and undesirable"
    Also waded in on rape with all the clumsiness of a bull in a china shop: http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/ken-on-rape-badly-phrased-but-basically-right/
    Was what he said there really so bad? Would anyone argue that one isn't much worse than the other? He said right at the off...

    "In both cases an offence has been committed, and the perpetrators deserve to be convicted and punished"

    Although would have to say that if a girl says "stop" you stop, end of. Don't want to get misunderstood.
    I felt "clumsy" was appropriate. Consider "the victim surely shares a part of the responsibility, if only for establishing reasonable expectations in her boyfriend’s mind". At this point she's said "stop!", what reasonable expectation could one have? And if the boyfriend acts in line with this "reasonable expectation", are we expected to accept that in some sense his conduct was reasonable?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    On topic: Looks like a bookie's/layers market to me.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    and on the subject of male,pale and stale,there is the selection of Roger Helmer as Ukip candidate.Perhaps,it's the moustache but it strikes me he should have starred in the Guns of Navarone opposite Gregory Peck.If that's charisma,you can keep it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Socrates said:

    Helmer seems like a mistake. It's much better to go with people like Diane James or Paul Nuttall. The campaign will be focused on this guy's eccentric views now, rather than the party platform.

    Farage doesn't seem to think so:

    "He is a massively experienced and respected figure on the national political stage and on the local political stage as well. I know that the UKIP membership will rally to the cause of making Roger our first directly elected MP.”

    This by-election will probably test to destruction the theory that 'exposing UKIP candidates views to scrutiny/ridicule (delete as appropriate) increases/decreases (ditto) UKIP popularity'.

    Oh well, at least Farage can't turn round later and say 'on reflection another candidate might have fared better'......
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    taffys said:

    This would seem to be a good example of exactly that.

    In the end there's nothing we can do to stop them If they want to f8ck their own economies by having a Financial transaction tax, that is up to them, whether we are in or out of the EU.

    It won't apply to us, or to other EU countries who don't want to go into the thing.

    Eh, yes it will. The idea, as I understand it, is that at the very least any French or German bank trading in London will have to account for the FTT to their country of origin and we would have the responsibility to collect it.

    In reality London is dominant in financial services so we would be collecting a tax for the rest of Europe which would be a major disincentive to trade in London as opposed to New York (who don't trade quite as many dollars as London at the moment) or Singapore. We would be at risk of losing a major industry and a significant part of our tax base whilst other EU countries would be barely affected. It would be totally unacceptable and Osborne is right to be angry.
    @rcs1000 Is this the case? Or would a London to Frankfurt trade be in the same situation as a New York to Frankfurt trade?
    To be honest, the proposals are so badly drafted at present as to be basically unenforceable They are what a school boy would propose, if he wanted to appear 'tough on bankers and tough on the causes of bankers.'

    They currently attempt to be extra-territorial, and don't appreciate there are important differences between asset classes, nor the importance of the role of market makers (who are exempt from stamp duty in the UK). They are confused as to what constitutes a derivative contract, and seem incapable of understanding the difference between the value of nominals, and the actual meaningful value of a contract. GDRs/ADRs are barely mentioned, even though a lot of trade in European shares goes through them.

    The very incoherence of the proposals has tended to make most in the financial services industry fairly sanguine about them.

    One of three things will happen:

    1. All (secondary market) financials services related to the EU/Eurozone will be driven out of the continent and to either an independent UK or somewhere else.
    2. The massive 'holes' in the proposals mean that we'll all be trading synthetic instruments, ensuring lots of Goldman Sachs bankers get bonuses for working their way around the rules.
    3. The proposals will be substantially modified and/or withdrawn.

    I suspect they are in increasing order of probability (10:25:65)...
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    If we're In, we can challenge it in the European Court,

    And if we lose (or should I say when?), we still get our number one industry hammered whilst paying an increasing number of billions for the privilege.

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    On the FTT: It remains to be seen what actually transpires, but it's an interesting example of a case where it's not obvious if it's better to be In or Out.

    If we're In, we can challenge it in the European Court, and insist on there being no discrimination against non-Eurozone countries and/or those countries not using the 'Enhanced Cooperation' mechanism.

    If we're Out, then we have zero say in the matter. Of course we can tell them to get stuffed as far as levying it in London is concerned, but we can't prevent them from banning EU-domiciled companies from using the London market if we refuse to play ball with them.

    Note that, if we leave the EU but stay in the EEA, we could potentially be vulnerable to the worst of all worlds - no say in the formulation of policy, but obliged to implement it.

    If we're out of the EU, would this be something that would be covered by the WTO?

    (I don't think anyone is suggesting leaving the EU, and joining the EEA. The IEA Brexit recommendation was to join the EFTA.)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    and on the subject of male,pale and stale,there is the selection of Roger Helmer as Ukip candidate.Perhaps,it's the moustache but it strikes me he should have starred in the Guns of Navarone opposite Gregory Peck.If that's charisma,you can keep it.

    Deadwood fans will recognise Helmer as "Cy Tolliver" played by Powers Boothe.

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Socrates said:

    Helmer seems like a mistake. It's much better to go with people like Diane James or Paul Nuttall. The campaign will be focused on this guy's eccentric views now, rather than the party platform.

    Farage doesn't seem to think so:

    "He is a massively experienced and respected figure on the national political stage and on the local political stage as well. I know that the UKIP membership will rally to the cause of making Roger our first directly elected MP.”

    This by-election will probably test to destruction the theory that 'exposing UKIP candidates views to scrutiny/ridicule (delete as appropriate) increases/decreases (ditto) UKIP popularity'.

    Oh well, at least Farage can't turn round later and say 'on reflection another candidate might have fared better'......
    'If only I hadn't bottled it.'
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    MrJones said:

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/05/04/majority-support-rent-controls/

    "56% say the government should introduce rent controls – and the majority say governments should be more willing to intervene in markets generally"

    Clever really. Old Labour trying to improve life for the average person ended up making them more conservative whereas New Labour allying with big business to destroy any kind of financial security at all let alone prosperity will successfully revive commiedom.


    Yay! A prices and incomes policy! I remember one of those it was such a great success the first time around that I can't remember why we got rid of it. Also capital controls, lets have those back - we should not expect rich buggers to be able to take their money out of the country, fifty-quid a head should be enough for working folk to spend on their holiday. Well, all right, maybe inflation has got in the way and maybe £50 for a fortnight is no longer enough but whatever the amount is it should be decided by Mr. Milliband. He is the only person, lets face it, to decide how much you should be allowed to spend on your holiday, how much rent you should pay, how much electricity you can use and, frankly, how much you should pay for food.

    However, times have moved on. Mr. Milliband does not want to return to the 1970s. You will therefore be forced to undergo state minimums of exercise, be barred from buying tobacco and have you booze rationed, unless you are on benefits.
    The political class are driving people's backs against the wall.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    On the FTT: It remains to be seen what actually transpires, but it's an interesting example of a case where it's not obvious if it's better to be In or Out.

    If we're In, we can challenge it in the European Court, and insist on there being no discrimination against non-Eurozone countries and/or those countries not using the 'Enhanced Cooperation' mechanism.

    If we're Out, then we have zero say in the matter. Of course we can tell them to get stuffed as far as levying it in London is concerned, but we can't prevent them from banning EU-domiciled companies from using the London market if we refuse to play ball with them.

    Note that, if we leave the EU but stay in the EEA, we could potentially be vulnerable to the worst of all worlds - no say in the formulation of policy, but obliged to implement it.

    It is complicated but if we were genuinely "offshore" then we would have no obligation to account for the tax nor provide any information to support its collection from the host country. Of course the individual institutions would still have an obligation to account but I suspect they would all re-register subsidiaries in London (if they have not done that already).

    In that scenario we would be in no different position than New York.

    If we remain in the club we have to play by the club rules. These seem a little obscure in this case which is why Osborne is going on about extraterritoriality. What is indisputable is that we have vastly more at stake here than the rest of the EU put together and our concerns and interests are not being respected. This is a major issue and the government has to respond aggressively.

    I don't disagree with your general point about the EEA.

  • NextNext Posts: 826
    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    taffys said:

    This would seem to be a good example of exactly that.

    In the end there's nothing we can do to stop them If they want to f8ck their own economies by having a Financial transaction tax, that is up to them, whether we are in or out of the EU.

    It won't apply to us, or to other EU countries who don't want to go into the thing.

    Eh, yes it will. The idea, as I understand it, is that at the very least any French or German bank trading in London will have to account for the FTT to their country of origin and we would have the responsibility to collect it.

    In reality London is dominant in financial services so we would be collecting a tax for the rest of Europe which would be a major disincentive to trade in London as opposed to New York (who don't trade quite as many dollars as London at the moment) or Singapore. We would be at risk of losing a major industry and a significant part of our tax base whilst other EU countries would be barely affected. It would be totally unacceptable and Osborne is right to be angry.
    @rcs1000 Is this the case? Or would a London to Frankfurt trade be in the same situation as a New York to Frankfurt trade?
    To be honest, the proposals are so badly drafted at present as to be basically unenforceable They are what a school boy would propose, if he wanted to appear 'tough on bankers and tough on the causes of bankers.'

    They currently attempt to be extra-territorial, and don't appreciate there are important differences between asset classes, nor the importance of the role of market makers (who are exempt from stamp duty in the UK). They are confused as to what constitutes a derivative contract, and seem incapable of understanding the difference between the value of nominals, and the actual meaningful value of a contract. GDRs/ADRs are barely mentioned, even though a lot of trade in European shares goes through them.
    On the other hand they have the "We need money. You've got money. Give us your money" bit worked out perfectly.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    If we're out of the EU, would this be something that would be covered by the WTO?

    (I don't think anyone is suggesting leaving the EU, and joining the EEA. The IEA Brexit recommendation was to join the EFTA.)

    I don't know how much protection the WTO would afford. My impression is that it is generally weak on services, but I'm not an expert.

    On the EEA, some people do advocate that as an option, but it makes no sense to me: most of the disadvantages of Brexit without many of the advantages.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Hard to say about Helmer. On one hand being seen to not bow to PC pressure from the telly is worth a lot of votes in itself, on the other there's whatever mileage the telly can get out of stuff that goes too far.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Ladbrokes Politics ‏@LadPolitics 50s
    UKIP select Roger Helmer for Newark. Ladbrokes lengthen their odds of winning to 5/1.
    Cons 4/7
    Lab 5/2
    UKIP 5/1.
    http://bit.ly/1n0bM8i
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    What is indisputable is that we have vastly more at stake here than the rest of the EU put together and our concerns and interests are not being respected. This is a major issue and the government has to respond aggressively.

    I'm I dyed in the wool tory, abut if a conservative government stands by and lets our financial services industry get shafted, even I will vote UKIP.

    I simply do not understand why the tories aren't far, far more aggressive here. Is it their utterly europhile civil servants urging restraint?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Those that ploughed in when the b/e was announced thinking Farage wasn't chicken must be cursing their losses now ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    TGOHF said:

    Those that ploughed in when the b/e was announced thinking Farage wasn't chicken must be cursing their losses now ?

    Not a loss yet. Drifting horses have been known to win...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2014
    taffys said:

    I simply do not understand why the tories aren't far, far more aggressive here. Is it their utterly europhile civil servants urging restraint?

    Because it's too soon to be aggressive. There isn't actually a specific proposal yet (which is why the European Court of Justice didn't allow the UK challenge).

    Of course, if the UK does have to choose between the EU and the City, we should and probably will choose the City. Our EU friends should be left in no doubt about that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    taffys said:

    What is indisputable is that we have vastly more at stake here than the rest of the EU put together and our concerns and interests are not being respected. This is a major issue and the government has to respond aggressively.

    I'm I dyed in the wool tory, abut if a conservative government stands by and lets our financial services industry get shafted, even I will vote UKIP.

    I simply do not understand why the tories aren't far, far more aggressive here. Is it their utterly europhile civil servants urging restraint?

    I think the belief is that the FTT - as currently proposed - is simply not enforceable. Rightly or wrongly, I think the idea is that it will spend the best part of a decade being redrafted, by which point it will probably have been forgotten, or so narrowed in scope, that it has very little impact.

    This is why the financial services press, the investment banks and the fund management community have been so quiet on the subject.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    The selection of Helmer helps Labour most. He's a candidate who will take some votes off the Tories, but I can't see him taking votes from Labour in the way that (say) Diane James might have done.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    Grandiose said:

    isam said:

    Grandiose said:

    TGOHF said:

    MikeK said:

    isam said:

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m

    UKIP names Roger Helmer as its Newark by-election candidate. Remarkable choice given his toxic views.

    What toxic views?
    All of them but for example

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 3m
    BREAKING: UKIP select Roger Helmer to fight Newark byelection - has called homosexuality “abnormal and undesirable"
    Also waded in on rape with all the clumsiness of a bull in a china shop: http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/ken-on-rape-badly-phrased-but-basically-right/
    Was what he said there really so bad? Would anyone argue that one isn't much worse than the other? He said right at the off...

    "In both cases an offence has been committed, and the perpetrators deserve to be convicted and punished"

    Although would have to say that if a girl says "stop" you stop, end of. Don't want to get misunderstood.
    I felt "clumsy" was appropriate. Consider "the victim surely shares a part of the responsibility, if only for establishing reasonable expectations in her boyfriend’s mind". At this point she's said "stop!", what reasonable expectation could one have? And if the boyfriend acts in line with this "reasonable expectation", are we expected to accept that in some sense his conduct was reasonable?
    If I, as a straight bloke, went out for a drink with a gay guy that I knew fancied me, kissed him and got into bed with him back at his, I would feel a lot more responsible were I to get raped than if I had been walking down the street and jumped by a stranger.

    But both would still be rape, and both should still be punished, and that's all Helmer said as far as I can see.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Helmer:

    I’d happily hang the murderer (I’m part of that retrograde majority which still believes in the death penalty

    What's UKIP policy on the death penalty?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    On the choice: Neil would be best, by a mile. Sophie Raworth would also be rather good.

    I was surprised some time ago when Nick Robinson stood in (not a Robinson fan generally) by how well he did. Much more chairing of discussion rather than scalp-hunting and self-importance.

    Sounds like the Conservatives won't mind Helmer. Might contrast gay marriage with Helmer's utterances. However, that would help firm up the more socially conservative for UKIP.

    The FTT is despicable, and clearly an attempt to raise taxes disproportionately from us (as it applies to us from one end even if we don't implement it). Do we have French farming taxes and German car taxes?

    Leaving aside the generally disgraceful approach of the EU, there's an arguably even more significant problem with the tax: who's collecting, where's it going? Is it to be done by individual nation states, or is it the first step on a path to a Brussels Treasury?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    "“I look at David Cameron across the dispatch box and I think to myself, I’m the one with the intellectual self-confidence because I actually know what I believe and I don’t need Lynton Crosby to tell me.”"

    Perhaps he does need someone to tell him yes or no occasionally - twerp.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited May 2014
    Grandiose said:
    Sorry, missed that!

    In the death penalty he's probably got one badly thought through populist policy that Miliband won't copy......

  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    With the first semi-final coming up tonight I notice that the UK are 3rd favourites to win Eurovision. Did I miss The Beatles being reanimated and announced as our entry or something?
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Nigel Evans to be deselected?

    "Nigel Evans, cleared by a jury of his peers and welcomed back into the Tory fold, now faces a battle to save his political career. As Guido revealed in the Sun on Sunday, Evans’ local Ribble Valley association has been ringing around Tory MPs asking their opinion on whether he should remain as the candidate for 2015. They harbour reservations about Evans continuing as their MP beyond the next election and want to gauge the “Westminster feeling”. "

    http://order-order.com/2014/05/06/ribble-valley-tories-weigh-up-evans-re-selection/
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Helmer:

    I’d happily hang the murderer (I’m part of that retrograde majority which still believes in the death penalty

    What's UKIP policy on the death penalty?

    Reintroduction I think !
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Has Ed been listening to Ed?

    It has been put to me that the right approach is Government intervention to protect the LSE from foreign ownership. I reject this argument. This would fly in the face of the traditions that have underpinned the City's success. A policy of protecting “national champions” would damage, not bolster the interests of London and the UK.

    http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/2277.htm
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Of course, if the UK does have to choose between the EU and the City, we should and probably will choose the City. Our EU friends should be left in no doubt about that. ''


    True but if ed miliband is in power at the time......maybe that's what the EU is calculating...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Off-topic:

    I wonder what one of our dear departed friends would have to say about this story:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27300312

    I can't be sure, but Cameron would get it in the neck somehow.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited May 2014

    Helmer:

    I’d happily hang the murderer (I’m part of that retrograde majority which still believes in the death penalty

    What's UKIP policy on the death penalty?

    Hopefully in favour of bringing it back

    Amazes me how many people are so appalled by the prospect of a death penalty for convicted murderers or paedophiles but shrug at the bombing of innocent foreigners.

    Who killed more innocent people, Tony Blair or the Electric chair?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Chris Patten resigns as head of BBC Trust. (He's 70 next week).
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Patten to stand down as BBC Trust boss.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Patten standing down from BBC Trust following major heart surgery.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Eurozone: Peston considers whether the eurozone sovereign debt crisis is over. Here's the last bit:
    "Or to put it another way, if the euro-area's leaders will not or can not use the current financial calm to push through a harder and more controversial political overhaul - which would inevitably see power shift from nations to the centre - then we may not have to wait many years to revisit potential euro catastrophe."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27296336

    Mr. Taffys, quite. Ed Miliband (whose intellectual self-confidence miraculously leads him to conclude state intervention is the remedy to every ailment) would side with the EU. Maybe he'll complete Blair's work and give away the rest of the rebate in exchange for the French considering the possibility of contemplating, at a future date, a theoretical re-appraisal of certain aspects relating to the CAP.

    Maybe.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    isam said:

    Grandiose said:

    isam said:

    Grandiose said:

    TGOHF said:

    MikeK said:

    isam said:

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m

    UKIP names Roger Helmer as its Newark by-election candidate. Remarkable choice given his toxic views.

    What toxic views?
    All of them but for example

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 3m
    BREAKING: UKIP select Roger Helmer to fight Newark byelection - has called homosexuality “abnormal and undesirable"
    Also waded in on rape with all the clumsiness of a bull in a china shop: http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/ken-on-rape-badly-phrased-but-basically-right/
    Was what he said there really so bad? Would anyone argue that one isn't much worse than the other? He said right at the off...

    "In both cases an offence has been committed, and the perpetrators deserve to be convicted and punished"

    Although would have to say that if a girl says "stop" you stop, end of. Don't want to get misunderstood.
    I felt "clumsy" was appropriate. Consider "the victim surely shares a part of the responsibility, if only for establishing reasonable expectations in her boyfriend’s mind". At this point she's said "stop!", what reasonable expectation could one have? And if the boyfriend acts in line with this "reasonable expectation", are we expected to accept that in some sense his conduct was reasonable?
    If I, as a straight bloke, went out for a drink with a gay guy that I knew fancied me, kissed him and got into bed with him back at his, I would feel a lot more responsible were I to get raped than if I had been walking down the street and jumped by a stranger.

    But both would still be rape, and both should still be punished, and that's all Helmer said as far as I can see.
    It's at very best very clumsy by Helmer and at worst terrible, depending on some of the ambiguities, things like 'much lighter sentence'. And putting some blame on the victim for being raped is something of a sticking point.

    For some offences abusing a position of trust would be considered to make the offence worse.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    isam said:

    Grandiose said:

    isam said:

    Grandiose said:

    TGOHF said:

    MikeK said:

    isam said:

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m

    UKIP names Roger Helmer as its Newark by-election candidate. Remarkable choice given his toxic views.

    What toxic views?
    All of them but for example

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 3m
    BREAKING: UKIP select Roger Helmer to fight Newark byelection - has called homosexuality “abnormal and undesirable"
    Also waded in on rape with all the clumsiness of a bull in a china shop: http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/ken-on-rape-badly-phrased-but-basically-right/
    Was what he said there really so bad? Would anyone argue that one isn't much worse than the other? He said right at the off...

    "In both cases an offence has been committed, and the perpetrators deserve to be convicted and punished"

    Although would have to say that if a girl says "stop" you stop, end of. Don't want to get misunderstood.
    I felt "clumsy" was appropriate. Consider "the victim surely shares a part of the responsibility, if only for establishing reasonable expectations in her boyfriend’s mind". At this point she's said "stop!", what reasonable expectation could one have? And if the boyfriend acts in line with this "reasonable expectation", are we expected to accept that in some sense his conduct was reasonable?
    If I, as a straight bloke, went out for a drink with a gay guy that I knew fancied me, kissed him and got into bed with him back at his, I would feel a lot more responsible were I to get raped than if I had been walking down the street and jumped by a stranger.

    But both would still be rape, and both should still be punished, and that's all Helmer said as far as I can see.
    David Starkey almost got lynched for expressing a similar opinion on Question Time.
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,921
    A little bit of political trivia. One of the candidates for the Morley South ward on Leeds City council is called Bluebell New Jerusalem Eikonoklastes. Now which party would that be do you think? That's right - the Green Party.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    Pulpstar said:

    Helmer:

    I’d happily hang the murderer (I’m part of that retrograde majority which still believes in the death penalty

    What's UKIP policy on the death penalty?

    Reintroduction I think !
    Though I suspect a lot of UKIP would support that, their current website doesn't actually mention it either way despite having a variety of 'old fashioned' crime policies (longer sentences and so on). I can't find a copy of the 2010 manifesto but the BBC 'at a glance' summary of it from the time mentions various crime policies but not the death penalty.

    Of course, we can't introduce capital punishment in peacetime while being a signatory of the ECHR. And we can't be a member of the EU without the ECHR.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Ukip have selected the obvious candidate. It would have been much more fun if they'd gone for Lizzie Vaid and she was elected.

    Ukip - the only party with 100% ethnic and female representation.

    They're decided to be serious instead. A chance missed.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    edited May 2014
    No wonder Lenny Henry and UKIP aren't soul mates.

    http://www.thedrum.com/stuff/2014/05/05/you-kip-premier-inn-ad-featuring-lenny-henry-goes-viral

    Clever marketing. What would @Roger think of the slogan?
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    and on the subject of male,pale and stale,there is the selection of Roger Helmer as Ukip candidate.Perhaps,it's the moustache but it strikes me he should have starred in the Guns of Navarone opposite Gregory Peck.If that's charisma,you can keep it.

    Emily Maitlis is a crypto communist Marxist
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Quincel said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Helmer:

    I’d happily hang the murderer (I’m part of that retrograde majority which still believes in the death penalty

    What's UKIP policy on the death penalty?

    Reintroduction I think !
    Though I suspect a lot of UKIP would support that, their current website doesn't actually mention it either way despite having a variety of 'old fashioned' crime policies (longer sentences and so on). I can't find a copy of the 2010 manifesto but the BBC 'at a glance' summary of it from the time mentions various crime policies but not the death penalty.

    Of course, we can't introduce capital punishment in peacetime while being a signatory of the ECHR. And we can't be a member of the EU without the ECHR.
    Obviously UKIP would be changing the 'EU' bit ;')
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    isam said:

    Helmer:

    I’d happily hang the murderer (I’m part of that retrograde majority which still believes in the death penalty

    What's UKIP policy on the death penalty?

    Hopefully in favour of bringing it back

    Amazes me how many people are so appalled by the prospect of a death penalty for convicted murderers or paedophiles but shrug at the bombing of innocent foreigners.

    Who killed more innocent people, Tony Blair or the Electric chair?
    I'm not so sure he's in the majority, or at least, not clearly.

    The last round of polling was almost three years ago (other press coverage is eassy enough to find):

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/3802

    Support for the death penalty for murder hovers at 50% (and no majority for anything less). Even then only 16% would kill every murderer; up to 70% would be prepared to kill some type of murderer.

    It's difficult to imagine the re-introduction of the death penalty "just" for at most a handful of cases each year - adding up child murders, mass murderers, and terrorist murderers.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    And though it is not official party policy, many UKIP members support the return of capital punishment. A UKIP spokesman told me: ‘We think it’s a question that should be allowed to be raised, but we have no corporate position. It is free-vote territory. You couldn’t impose the whip in [a Commons vote on capital punishment].’

    Chief among these supporters is UKIP deputy leader Paul Nuttall, UKIP MEP for the north-west of England. He wants the death penalty introduced for child murderers, serial killers and those who murder police officers. Nuttall stresses that it is UKIP’s policy to hold a referendum on controversial issues which gain the support of 5% of the population.

    In 2011, Nuttall signed a petition on the Downing Street website launched by political blogger Guido Fawkes which had the aim of attracting the necessary 100,000 signatures to trigger a debate. As he pointed out at the time, a YouGov poll found that 62% of people would support the death penalty for child murder and 65% for serial murder.

    That a majority of the electorate support the death penalty for the most heinous crimes appears indisputable. Opponents of capital punishment were relieved when the petition closed with just 26,000 signatures – a counter-petition got 33,000.


    http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/analysis/bringing-back-the-death-penalty/70817.article
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    AndyJS said:

    Chris Patten resigns as head of BBC Trust. (He's 70 next week).

    Is he staying on as Oxford Chancellor?
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Grandiose said:

    isam said:

    Grandiose said:

    TGOHF said:

    MikeK said:

    isam said:

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m

    UKIP names Roger Helmer as its Newark by-election candidate. Remarkable choice given his toxic views.

    What toxic views?
    All of them but for example

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 3m
    BREAKING: UKIP select Roger Helmer to fight Newark byelection - has called homosexuality “abnormal and undesirable"
    Also waded in on rape with all the clumsiness of a bull in a china shop: http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/ken-on-rape-badly-phrased-but-basically-right/
    Was what he said there really so bad? Would anyone argue that one isn't much worse than the other? He said right at the off...

    "In both cases an offence has been committed, and the perpetrators deserve to be convicted and punished"

    Although would have to say that if a girl says "stop" you stop, end of. Don't want to get misunderstood.
    I felt "clumsy" was appropriate. Consider "the victim surely shares a part of the responsibility, if only for establishing reasonable expectations in her boyfriend’s mind". At this point she's said "stop!", what reasonable expectation could one have? And if the boyfriend acts in line with this "reasonable expectation", are we expected to accept that in some sense his conduct was reasonable?
    If I, as a straight bloke, went out for a drink with a gay guy that I knew fancied me, kissed him and got into bed with him back at his, I would feel a lot more responsible were I to get raped than if I had been walking down the street and jumped by a stranger.

    But both would still be rape, and both should still be punished, and that's all Helmer said as far as I can see.
    David Starkey almost got lynched for expressing a similar opinion on Question Time.
    There's a raging cauldron of controversy around if people can be partially responsible without being morally culpable, or merely having acted inadvisedly without being responsible, or the victim is always entirely without fault. The final position tends to be held with quite stunning vehemence by the loudest part of the feminist community.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    Pulpstar said:

    Quincel said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Helmer:

    I’d happily hang the murderer (I’m part of that retrograde majority which still believes in the death penalty

    What's UKIP policy on the death penalty?

    Reintroduction I think !
    Though I suspect a lot of UKIP would support that, their current website doesn't actually mention it either way despite having a variety of 'old fashioned' crime policies (longer sentences and so on). I can't find a copy of the 2010 manifesto but the BBC 'at a glance' summary of it from the time mentions various crime policies but not the death penalty.

    Of course, we can't introduce capital punishment in peacetime while being a signatory of the ECHR. And we can't be a member of the EU without the ECHR.
    Obviously UKIP would be changing the 'EU' bit ;')
    Indeed, hardly a barrier but an additional incentive from their point of view I think!
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    isam said:

    Helmer:

    I’d happily hang the murderer (I’m part of that retrograde majority which still believes in the death penalty

    What's UKIP policy on the death penalty?

    Hopefully in favour of bringing it back

    Amazes me how many people are so appalled by the prospect of a death penalty for convicted murderers or paedophiles but shrug at the bombing of innocent foreigners.

    Who killed more innocent people, Tony Blair or the Electric chair?
    Thin argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. I happen to oppose the death penalty on moral grounds, but it's almost impossible to defend on certainty of guilt grounds (lots if innocent people would have hanged here were it still in force) and as a deterrent (little evidence it is one). It is also a lawyers charter and as such is incredibly expensive
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