The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
(I omitted China on the judgement that the data wasn't reliable, and South Korea because it was way, way out on its own and we already know it's doing far better than anyone else)
It's an excellent chart, thank you. Only suggestions I would make would be to plot the logarithm of the per million rate, and I'd be interested in seeing the US and Belgium (but the chart is already crowded, so difficult).
I can have a crack. US was already on it (but crowded so hard to see). Belgium added, logs taken - and I changed colours to match the original one and added the country names close to the line to aid identification.
The Netherlands now overtaken Italy on deaths from Covid 19 per capita at this stage then, joining Spain and Belgium in the same position
Although Norway looks like an outlier, they had one or two deaths and then nothing for a while (beware of the log y-axis). If you shift the main part of the Norway curve left to meet the others then it looks like the others.
A good friend's best friend just died of the virus in New York. She was 48.
Somebody else the Wife knows extremely well has it. She won't be put on a ventilator, as she is too old.
Shit got real.
An interesting day back at work. We now have 122 confirmed Covid19 patients as inpatients. 22 fatalities (to yesterday) 38 discharged home.
Thanks for the update @Foxy! If you're allowed to say, are all of the 62 'active' cases in the ICU?
122 active cases, not counting in my figures resolved cases. Currently increasing about 20% per day. Most are on medical wards. ICU only taking those with good Clinical Frailty Scores.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
Or saying that shutting down travel was a bad idea - not that our Government seems to be interested in shutting down air travel from USA etal
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
I am not 1,000% sure I would take the US intelligence community's word always for everything. They have one aim and it is not to inform the world of the truth.
Absolutely, however, I'd take their word over that of the CCP any day of the week. For the same reasons I would not allow Huawei into our 5G network and would want them out of the 4G network.
China as a nation is not to be trusted and if one good thing comes out of this it is hopefully a realignment of the industrialised world to exclude China from essential and sensitive supply chains.
Lying so blatantly about Covid-19 could unravel decades of Chinese strategy.
But I suspect that manufacturing is now so tightly bound into China that they will get away with it. If you doubt that, put everything made in China on your lawn with a sign saying "free to anyone who will take it away".
I suspect moving things away from China is going to be a major part of our economic recovery - as it's going to require a lot of (Government) money to fix this mess and there will need to be some purpose for it (even if the purpose is kept secret).
Its been happening for a while - will now accelerated.
No doubt aided by some fat tariffs.
We are going to get 12 questions on whether NHS staff have been tested - dont they listen to the other questions ? Like Jezza at PMQs this.
We really could do with a PB representative at these press conferences. The questions would actually be relevant and useful rather than point scoring.
I vote we send Cyclefree.
She'd only need one question....
+1
Seriously why couldn't PB get press creditation?
Because the first question no matter the subject would be about pineapple on pizza.
That's why we don't send TSE.
Nor Mr Dancer, who would very politely no doubt ask for an update on the Second Punic War....
(I omitted China on the judgement that the data wasn't reliable, and South Korea because it was way, way out on its own and we already know it's doing far better than anyone else)
It's an excellent chart, thank you. Only suggestions I would make would be to plot the logarithm of the per million rate, and I'd be interested in seeing the US and Belgium (but the chart is already crowded, so difficult).
I can have a crack. US was already on it (but crowded so hard to see). Belgium added, logs taken - and I changed colours to match the original one and added the country names close to the line to aid identification.
That's a good comparison now. (Edit: by which I mean the best I've seen)
Embarrassingly I think I assumed the US wasn't on the chart because I was expecting it to have the worst trajectory of all. My bias showing itself.
A friend has been told the interest rate he will be charged is 30% for his profitable business (the bank is also asking for a PG.)
Bloody shameful.
Remarkable
Disgraceful
To defend the government in a country where the culture is free enterprise, the promises they made were hard to achieve, so we can’t really beat them up for not achieving them. They made it sound too easy considering government doesn’t have that much control over private third parties, but the nub of this problem is liquidity, And that’s never an easy thing to get flowing. From a promise at a lectern, into people’s pockets. Via third party’s playing ball, not ultimately but very quickly. There’s a psychology of not taking risk in this situation that needs to be overcome or it slows down the promise of quickly getting help where needed.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
If anyone is still interested in why Germany manages to test vastly more people despite facing the same global shortages of chemicals as the UK, this is a good summary.
It's complicated. Top line summary: Germany is more on the ball than we are. The chemical shortage is part of the mix however
I recommend reading the whole thing, but what I take away, (yes because it backs up my pre-held belief LOL) is that the privit secter when involved can and will achieve amazing things very quickly. in the US and here the CDC and Public Heath England, wanted a monopoly, on testing and then could not cope.
The NHS is full of lots of wonderful people who are highly skilled, working exceptionally hard and at the moment brave, but the organisation stretcher is rubbish.
Basically the Germans started earlier, moved faster and were better coordinated than we were. There are some structural reasons for this. I think what it shows is that marginal advantages can add up to a big difference when there are enough of them.
I'd be a bit wary of that reaction.life article re the differences between the German and UK testing situations. Much of it is entirely speculative and admits this is the case (eg the £billions comparison between the size of the biotech sectors but in fairness admitting the author doesn't know whether there is a difference in how many UK/German firms specialise in the kit which is actually relevant). Other bits of it are very know-it-all. I'm not sufficiently expert to judge the overall quality of the article or the validity of its conclusions, but the non-speculative know-it-all bits contain some big red flags that indicate the author knows surprisingly little about either the UK/German pharmaceutical industries and public health systems, and probably hasn't talked in depth to people who do while doing his research (he says he's followed some twitter threads but that isn't the same thing).
Quick google reveals the author is a fresh-out-of-uni Early Modern History grad from Cambridge University which may explain some of the lapses. I could see there's some logic in comparing the £billion sizes of UK and German biotech sectors with the caveat that's only going to tell you a limited amount about who's got access to what kit, and I can't see what he was thinking when he wrote "Of course, turnover is not as reliable an indication as revenue figures".
A huge giveaway is Public Health England has a number of public health laboratories which provide a number of centres of regional excellence.... Then there are the biosafety laboratories of great institutions such as the Francis Crick Institute, the Health Protection Agency, and the Centre for Emergency Preparedness and Response.
That's hilarious. You couldn't possibly have made that mistake if you'd visited Colindale, for example. Or talked in depth to someone who'd had a senior career in UK public health. Or even read the basic Wikipedia entries for PHE and the HPA! It's the sort of mistake a google-instaexpert makes due to lack of awareness of historic/political context. There is more stuff that smelled wrong but I won't go on.
In fairness the author does compile some interesting stuff about the German system. But then if he's so wrong about stuff that I do know, how much do I trust re the bits that I don't?
Fair enough. Do you have any thoughts on why the Germans are so far ahead of us with testing despite facing broadly the same set of circumstances?
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
Ooo are we going to adopt an "ethical foreign policy"?
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
I am not 1,000% sure I would take the US intelligence community's word always for everything. They have one aim and it is not to inform the world of the truth.
Absolutely, however, I'd take their word over that of the CCP any day of the week. For the same reasons I would not allow Huawei into our 5G network and would want them out of the 4G network.
China as a nation is not to be trusted and if one good thing comes out of this it is hopefully a realignment of the industrialised world to exclude China from essential and sensitive supply chains.
Lying so blatantly about Covid-19 could unravel decades of Chinese strategy.
But I suspect that manufacturing is now so tightly bound into China that they will get away with it. If you doubt that, put everything made in China on your lawn with a sign saying "free to anyone who will take it away".
I suspect moving things away from China is going to be a major part of our economic recovery - as it's going to require a lot of (Government) money to fix this mess and there will need to be some purpose for it (even if the purpose is kept secret).
Its been happening for a while - will now accelerated.
No doubt aided by some fat tariffs.
We are going to get 12 questions on whether NHS staff have been tested - dont they listen to the other questions ? Like Jezza at PMQs this.
We really could do with a PB representative at these press conferences. The questions would actually be relevant and useful rather than point scoring.
I vote we send Cyclefree.
She'd only need one question....
+1
Seriously why couldn't PB get press creditation?
Because the first question no matter the subject would be about pineapple on pizza.
That's why we don't send TSE.
Nor Mr Dancer, who would very politely no doubt ask for an update on the Second Punic War....
If it was TSE I suspect the second question would be the other PB's favourite question of Baboon vs Badger.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
No further out than countries in the West? I find that difficult to believe.
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
I am not 1,000% sure I would take the US intelligence community's word always for everything. They have one aim and it is not to inform the world of the truth.
Absolutely, however, I'd take their word over that of the CCP any day of the week. For the same reasons I would not allow Huawei into our 5G network and would want them out of the 4G network.
China as a nation is not to be trusted and if one good thing comes out of this it is hopefully a realignment of the industrialised world to exclude China from essential and sensitive supply chains.
Lying so blatantly about Covid-19 could unravel decades of Chinese strategy.
But I suspect that manufacturing is now so tightly bound into China that they will get away with it. If you doubt that, put everything made in China on your lawn with a sign saying "free to anyone who will take it away".
I suspect moving things away from China is going to be a major part of our economic recovery - as it's going to require a lot of (Government) money to fix this mess and there will need to be some purpose for it (even if the purpose is kept secret).
Its been happening for a while - will now accelerated.
No doubt aided by some fat tariffs.
We are going to get 12 questions on whether NHS staff have been tested - dont they listen to the other questions ? Like Jezza at PMQs this.
We really could do with a PB representative at these press conferences. The questions would actually be relevant and useful rather than point scoring.
I vote we send Cyclefree.
She'd only need one question....
+1
Seriously why couldn't PB get press creditation?
Because the first question no matter the subject would be about pineapple on pizza.
That's why we don't send TSE.
Nor Mr Dancer, who would very politely no doubt ask for an update on the Second Punic War....
A good friend's best friend just died of the virus in New York. She was 48.
Somebody else the Wife knows extremely well has it. She won't be put on a ventilator, as she is too old.
Shit got real.
An interesting day back at work. We now have 122 confirmed Covid19 patients as inpatients. 22 fatalities (to yesterday) 38 discharged home.
Thanks for the update @Foxy! If you're allowed to say, are all of the 62 'active' cases in the ICU?
122 active cases, not counting in my figures resolved cases. Currently increasing about 20% per day. Most are on medical wards. ICU only taking those with good Clinical Frailty Scores.
Thanks Foxy! So about 400 active cases at the peak (assuming 20% increase in new cases for the next three days and then fairly constant growth subsequently). Fingers crossed you are just about able to handle this.
(I omitted China on the judgement that the data wasn't reliable, and South Korea because it was way, way out on its own and we already know it's doing far better than anyone else)
It's an excellent chart, thank you. Only suggestions I would make would be to plot the logarithm of the per million rate, and I'd be interested in seeing the US and Belgium (but the chart is already crowded, so difficult).
I can have a crack. US was already on it (but crowded so hard to see). Belgium added, logs taken - and I changed colours to match the original one and added the country names close to the line to aid identification.
Apologies if I'm pointing out the obvious here, but by logging the "death rate per million" you're effectively just adding vertical offsets for each country to the simple log of deaths.
The usefulness of the logged rates chart is you can compare which countries are doing better/worse "per head" in a way you can't do on the logged deaths chart, just pointing out that you don't learn any more from the slopes/curvature (eg if you're looking for signs of levelling out) from the logged rates graph than you would from the logged deaths graph.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
I am not 1,000% sure I would take the US intelligence community's word always for everything. They have one aim and it is not to inform the world of the truth.
Absolutely, however, I'd take their word over that of the CCP any day of the week. For the same reasons I would not allow Huawei into our 5G network and would want them out of the 4G network.
China as a nation is not to be trusted and if one good thing comes out of this it is hopefully a realignment of the industrialised world to exclude China from essential and sensitive supply chains.
Lying so blatantly about Covid-19 could unravel decades of Chinese strategy.
But I suspect that manufacturing is now so tightly bound into China that they will get away with it. If you doubt that, put everything made in China on your lawn with a sign saying "free to anyone who will take it away".
I suspect moving things away from China is going to be a major part of our economic recovery - as it's going to require a lot of (Government) money to fix this mess and there will need to be some purpose for it (even if the purpose is kept secret).
We're moving away from China; we're moving away from Europe; no-one can engage with the US right now to their advantage. Which leaves what?
The Commonwealth, I guess. India isn't exactly small, but may not be delighted at us regarding it as a meal ticket.
Nor Mr Dancer, who would very politely no doubt ask for an update on the Second Punic War....
And don't send me unless we want a relentless focus on how the UK response to the virus has been handicapped by our bizarre predilection for private schools.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
Now daily reports that the figures are fake,Sky news last night reporting by as much as a factor of 40.
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Glad you are keeping an open mind and haven't already kneejerked to a conclusion at an early stage based on political bias.
Ventilators may be taken from stable patients for healthier ones, BMA says Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
(I omitted China on the judgement that the data wasn't reliable, and South Korea because it was way, way out on its own and we already know it's doing far better than anyone else)
It's an excellent chart, thank you. Only suggestions I would make would be to plot the logarithm of the per million rate, and I'd be interested in seeing the US and Belgium (but the chart is already crowded, so difficult).
I can have a crack. US was already on it (but crowded so hard to see). Belgium added, logs taken - and I changed colours to match the original one and added the country names close to the line to aid identification.
That's a good comparison now. (Edit: by which I mean the best I've seen)
Embarrassingly I think I assumed the US wasn't on the chart because I was expecting it to have the worst trajectory of all. My bias showing itself.
The graph of subnational regions is probably more revealing given the pattern of local epicentres.
Her daughter works as a carer - one of her daughter's work colleagues has just died of the virus - aged 30, in good health. Wasn't admitted to hospital - died very quickly at home and post mortem showed the virus.
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Glad you are keeping an open mind and haven't already kneejerked to a conclusion at an early stage based on political bias.
Ventilators may be taken from stable patients for healthier ones, BMA says Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
Yes - the government should have bought an expensive ventilator for every citizen just in case this happened.
And a rifle each in case of alien invasion. Its a disgrace.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
Nor Mr Dancer, who would very politely no doubt ask for an update on the Second Punic War....
And don't send me unless we want a relentless focus on how the UK response to the virus has been handicapped by our bizarre predilection for private schools.
To be fair, that would be more on point than some of the questions we've had....
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Apart from Germany and South Korea can you name any country that is performing better than the UK and it is far too early, unless you are political, to determine whether history will be kind or otherwise to the UK
Her daughter works as a carer - one of her daughter's work colleagues has just died of the virus - aged 30, in good health. Wasn't admitted to hospital - died very quickly at home and post mortem showed the virus.
Very shocking.
Oh gosh - so sorry to hear that. Whereabouts did this take place?
A friend has been told the interest rate he will be charged is 30% for his profitable business (the bank is also asking for a PG.)
Bloody shameful.
Remarkable
Disgraceful
Are the banks not just being cautious, as we wanted them to be post-2008?
No.
+1 not at 30%, the bank is getting this money for free / at 0.1% remember..
Ok, I know I am going to be in a small minority here but...
How many of these businesses are going to go bust - even with the loan? What percentage of these debts are going to go bad? 1%? 5%? 10%? 30%?
Put it another way, when given the opportunity of a refund or a 125% future cruise credit on our cancelled cruise, which did I decide to opt for?
(Clue, I didn't fancy giving Carnival an unsecured loan event at 25% interest)
30% would make sense without the govt guarantee, or perhaps even with a personal guarantee. But combined its crazy?
No govt or bank guarantee. Expected return 1.3 if business survives or 0 if it doesnt. Sounds fair
With govt guarantee. Expected return 1.3 if business survives or 0.6-0.8 if it doesnt. Sounds very good for the bank
With govt and personal guarantee. Expected return 1.3 if business survives or personal guarantor doesnt go bankrupt, 0.6-0.8 if it doesnt. Sounds extortionate.
The guarantor is probably way better off asking the same banks for personal credit cards and moving the balance to the business from there.
* The numbers are actually slightly better for the banks as bankrupt businesses will on average have made some payments, and the best case for them is businesses who struggle to pay back the loans incurring penalties and ongoing fees for many years which will happen to some.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
CCP shills seem to love the 'It's Sinophobic to assume that a totalitarian state that run re-education death camps with the means, motive, and opportunity to cover up hundreds of thousands of deaths, would cover up 5 to 6 figure numbers of deaths' line.
If anyone is still interested in why Germany manages to test vastly more people despite facing the same global shortages of chemicals as the UK, this is a good summary.
It's complicated. Top line summary: Germany is more on the ball than we are. The chemical shortage is part of the mix however
I recommend reading the whole thing, but what I take away, (yes because it backs up my pre-held belief LOL) is that the privit secter when involved can and will achieve amazing things very quickly. in the US and here the CDC and Public Heath England, wanted a monopoly, on testing and then could not cope.
The NHS is full of lots of wonderful people who are highly skilled, working exceptionally hard and at the moment brave, but the organisation stretcher is rubbish.
Basically the Germans started earlier, moved faster and were better coordinated than we were. There are some structural reasons for this. I think what it shows is that marginal advantages can add up to a big difference when there are enough of them.
I'd be a bit wary of that reaction.life article re the differences between the German and UK testing situations. Much of it is entirely speculative and admits this is the case (eg the £billions comparison between the size of the biotech sectors but in fairness admitting the author doesn't know whether there is a difference in how many UK/German firms specialise in the kit which is actually relevant). Other bits of it are very know-it-all. I'm not sufficiently expert to judge the overall quality of the article or the validity of its conclusions, but the non-speculative know-it-all bits contain some big red flags that indicate the author knows surprisingly little about either the UK/German pharmaceutical industries and public health systems, and probably hasn't talked in depth to people who do while doing his research (he says he's followed some twitter threads but that isn't the same thing).
Quick google reveals the author is a fresh-out-of-uni Early Modern History grad from Cambridge University which may explain some of the lapses. I could see there's some logic in comparing the £billion sizes of UK and German biotech sectors with the caveat that's only going to tell you a limited amount about who's got access to what kit, and I can't see what he was thinking when he wrote "Of course, turnover is not as reliable an indication as revenue figures".
A huge giveaway is Public Health England has a number of public health laboratories which provide a number of centres of regional excellence.... Then there are the biosafety laboratories of great institutions such as the Francis Crick Institute, the Health Protection Agency, and the Centre for Emergency Preparedness and Response.
That's hilarious. You couldn't possibly have made that mistake if you'd visited Colindale, for example. Or talked in depth to someone who'd had a senior career in UK public health. Or even read the basic Wikipedia entries for PHE and the HPA! It's the sort of mistake a google-instaexpert makes due to lack of awareness of historic/political context. There is more stuff that smelled wrong but I won't go on.
In fairness the author does compile some interesting stuff about the German system. But then if he's so wrong about stuff that I do know, how much do I trust re the bits that I don't?
Fair enough. Do you have any thoughts on why the Germans are so far ahead of us with testing despite facing broadly the same set of circumstances?
I think this is a question that requires very deep expertise to answer and isn't one for the google'sperts or even the informed speculators. Jane Hill kept quizzing a UK professor about the UK situation on the Beeb today and while she was trying to manoeuvre him into saying something accusatory he just kept on saying it was all very complex and despite knowing a lot about the mechanics and technology of testing, he was in no position to answer. He emphasised the issue was a "systems problem" with severe logistical complications, not one of technological know-how or unavailability of competent technicians to run the tests.
Perhaps interestingly in regards to that article, he also emphasised that there were big trade-offs between a more "distributed" system in which more university labs got involved in testing, versus a more centralised one, and that they might help or they might get in the way (all kinds of problems from staff safety to the IT). He was happy to assume that PHE had their Big Brains on it with expertise in building and managing and entire testing infrastructure, and that was good enough for him. Unfortunately I get the impression the Big Brains in this highly specialised area are unlikely to speak publicly for some time to come!
In retrospect the WHO was just as late as almost any state actor, but I think this must be seen in context. The WHO was under sustained criticism in the past for 'panicking' and under acute pressure at the time 'not to interrupt commerce'. We (the world) will probably amend reporting protocols in the future and, hopefully, raise our awareness.
Her daughter works as a carer - one of her daughter's work colleagues has just died of the virus - aged 30, in good health. Wasn't admitted to hospital - died very quickly at home and post mortem showed the virus.
Very shocking.
Horrific.
I know it's not much fun to come on here and wring our collective hands but there's a certain comfort in knowing we're all in this together.
It's bloody awful 'eh?
(Rhetorical as I'm off for a workout on my bike - in my own abode)
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Apart from Germany and South Korea can you name any country that is performing better than the UK and it is far too early, unless you are political, to determine whether history will be kind or otherwise to the UK
History is going to be brutal with all our Govts (with a few worthy exceptions).....in the immediate aftermath no-one will want to hear the lessons, but in 5-10 years time the reckoning will start with many of our current political leaders being brought to book....
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
I am not 1,000% sure I would take the US intelligence community's word always for everything. They have one aim and it is not to inform the world of the truth.
Absolutely, however, I'd take their word over that of the CCP any day of the week. For the same reasons I would not allow Huawei into our 5G network and would want them out of the 4G network.
China as a nation is not to be trusted and if one good thing comes out of this it is hopefully a realignment of the industrialised world to exclude China from essential and sensitive supply chains.
Lying so blatantly about Covid-19 could unravel decades of Chinese strategy.
But I suspect that manufacturing is now so tightly bound into China that they will get away with it. If you doubt that, put everything made in China on your lawn with a sign saying "free to anyone who will take it away".
I suspect moving things away from China is going to be a major part of our economic recovery - as it's going to require a lot of (Government) money to fix this mess and there will need to be some purpose for it (even if the purpose is kept secret).
Its been happening for a while - will now accelerated.
No doubt aided by some fat tariffs.
We are going to get 12 questions on whether NHS staff have been tested - dont they listen to the other questions ? Like Jezza at PMQs this.
We really could do with a PB representative at these press conferences. The questions would actually be relevant and useful rather than point scoring.
I vote we send Cyclefree.
She'd only need one question....
+1
Seriously why couldn't PB get press creditation?
Because the first question no matter the subject would be about pineapple on pizza.
Surely it would be asking if AV was being used in the cabinet to decide policy
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Glad you are keeping an open mind and haven't already kneejerked to a conclusion at an early stage based on political bias.
Ventilators may be taken from stable patients for healthier ones, BMA says Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Glad you are keeping an open mind and haven't already kneejerked to a conclusion at an early stage based on political bias.
Ventilators may be taken from stable patients for healthier ones, BMA says Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
Yes - the government should have bought an expensive ventilator for every citizen just in case this happened.
And a rifle each in case of alien invasion. Its a disgrace.
I am not sure rifles are proven in the case of alien invasion.
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Glad you are keeping an open mind and haven't already kneejerked to a conclusion at an early stage based on political bias.
Ventilators may be taken from stable patients for healthier ones, BMA says Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Apart from Germany and South Korea can you name any country that is performing better than the UK and it is far too early, unless you are political, to determine whether history will be kind or otherwise to the UK
History is going to be brutal with all our Govts (with a few worthy exceptions).....in the immediate aftermath no-one will want to hear the lessons, but in 5-10 years time the reckoning will start with many of our current political leaders being brought to book....
By people who are probably very glad that they are not the ones having to make life and death decisions each day with limited and changing data and limited resources and capabilities. Whilst still trying to manage their own lives, fears and loved ones.
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Glad you are keeping an open mind and haven't already kneejerked to a conclusion at an early stage based on political bias.
Ventilators may be taken from stable patients for healthier ones, BMA says Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
CCP shills seem to love the 'It's Sinophobic to assume that a totalitarian state that run re-education death camps with the means, motive, and opportunity to cover up hundreds of thousands of deaths, would cover up 5 to 6 figure numbers of deaths' line.
In the aftermath of Covid 19....one thing far more terrifying than this virus would be a drumbeat leading us to conflict with China.....the 1930's over again, but this time with nukes aplenty
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Glad you are keeping an open mind and haven't already kneejerked to a conclusion at an early stage based on political bias.
Ventilators may be taken from stable patients for healthier ones, BMA says Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
Jailed.
This explains the anger transference to China.
The government has a majority of 80 and make the law, by definition they cannot be criminally incompetent if they decided to do it
I noticed the traffic on the road outside my house last Sunday was similar to a Sunday normal. No doubt some were on the way to essential work; others were caring for vulnerable friends, family and so on; a few may be shopping although this is the centre of town and there are plenty supermarkets in walking distance.
Point is, probably most of these people were breaking the social distancing requirements imposed on the population to slow the epidemic. I don't want the police to be issuing fines like confetti, but I am in favour of them reminding citizens what their obligations are, in the same way they might talk to an unruly neighbour or break up a spontaneous large gathering of youths. The choice isn't just between heavy-handedness and doing nothing.
“What their obligations are” is the key phrase here.
The legal obligations are not the same as the advice and the police are confusing the two, as the NPCC guidance shows. This is not just confusion. It appears to be intentional. And it is wrong to mislead citizens about what is or is not a criminal offence.
I have no problem with a policeman reminding someone of the advice. I have a very big problem indeed with them telling someone that they will be committing a criminal offence when they won’t be or stopping them doing something which is lawful.
A friend has been told the interest rate he will be charged is 30% for his profitable business (the bank is also asking for a PG.)
Bloody shameful.
Remarkable
Disgraceful
Are the banks not just being cautious, as we wanted them to be post-2008?
No.
+1 not at 30%, the bank is getting this money for free / at 0.1% remember..
Ok, I know I am going to be in a small minority here but...
How many of these businesses are going to go bust - even with the loan? What percentage of these debts are going to go bad? 1%? 5%? 10%? 30%?
Put it another way, when given the opportunity of a refund or a 125% future cruise credit on our cancelled cruise, which did I decide to opt for?
(Clue, I didn't fancy giving Carnival an unsecured loan event at 25% interest)
It's a broad brush stroke, but if the banks are effectively being given money (which they have to repay) at 0.1% interest, charging 30% on it implies either a) they think the chances of the recipient defaulting are close to 30%, less a per cent or two for profit. Or b) they are profiteering massively.
I think as much as a 20% contraction in GDP for the next quarter is coming. Great depression territory. Sky high unemployment. Huge government spending required. Vastly reduced tax base with which to recoup it from. This won't be a V shaped recession, either. Even those who don't lose their jobs will be staying at home, not spending, shocked. Things will get very ugly.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
CCP shills seem to love the 'It's Sinophobic to assume that a totalitarian state that run re-education death camps with the means, motive, and opportunity to cover up hundreds of thousands of deaths, would cover up 5 to 6 figure numbers of deaths' line.
In the aftermath of Covid 19....one thing far more terrifying than this virus would be a drumbeat leading us to conflict with China.....the 1930's over again, but this time with nukes aplenty
It is perfectly possible to not be impressed by nasty people with nukes without starting a war.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
CCP shills seem to love the 'It's Sinophobic to assume that a totalitarian state that run re-education death camps with the means, motive, and opportunity to cover up hundreds of thousands of deaths, would cover up 5 to 6 figure numbers of deaths' line.
In the aftermath of Covid 19....one thing far more terrifying than this virus would be a drumbeat leading us to conflict with China.....the 1930's over again, but this time with nukes aplenty
There is a difference between asking China to close wet markets and improve lab safety and nuking Beijing
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
CCP shills seem to love the 'It's Sinophobic to assume that a totalitarian state that run re-education death camps with the means, motive, and opportunity to cover up hundreds of thousands of deaths, would cover up 5 to 6 figure numbers of deaths' line.
In the aftermath of Covid 19....one thing far more terrifying than this virus would be a drumbeat leading us to conflict with China.....the 1930's over again, but this time with nukes aplenty
Re the article, cyclefree is right as normal, but this particular battle between state, law and people was mostly already won over the weekend. Some forces went over the top, got slapped down and taken the piss out of. A very British way of holding them to account.
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Glad you are keeping an open mind and haven't already kneejerked to a conclusion at an early stage based on political bias.
Ventilators may be taken from stable patients for healthier ones, BMA says Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
Jailed.
As no expect it feels to me that proving personal criminal negligence by individual politicians would be next to impossible, even if it were possible.
I am afraid that erosion of trust and faith in the police is something that has been happening for a very long time - starting back at least in the early 80s with the atrocious behaviour of some police forces during the miner's strike. There will always be people on the fringes of society who distrust or dislike the police because they are prevented from doing exactly what they want when they want even when it includes breaking the law. But since the 1980s that distrust and dislike has moved into demographics that previously had a good relationship with the police - the working and middle classes.
Of course in recent years this has been accentuated by the failings of the police to deal with basic crimes. This may not be entirely their fault with cuts and ever increasing demands but in the eyes of most people I believe there are basic things that the police should react to. When we see only 1 or 2% of burglaries being solved in some areas and the police loath to even give out crime numbers because it will reflect badly on their stats (this has happened twice to me in the last 5 years) then it is clear there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our police forces are operating.
The current crisis 'could' greatly improve the image of the police as they are being asked to do a very difficult job under very trying circumstances and most reasonable people would accept that most police are going to try and react reasonably. Unfortunately a few examples of police abusing their powers are likely to mean that the outcome is a force regarded with more suspicion rather than less.
Are viruses deterred by ventilators? What a farcical comparison.
The point is about spending lots of money on something that will only be used in the event of a black swan event.
So you hope you never have to use it - the nuclear weapon or the excess ICU capacity - but you are prepared to carry the overhead because the consequences of not having it if the black swan event occurs - homeland attack by foreign power or deadly virus epidemic - are potentially so dire.
Not a perfect comparison but hardly "farcical". C'mon. As if!
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Apart from Germany and South Korea can you name any country that is performing better than the UK and it is far too early, unless you are political, to determine whether history will be kind or otherwise to the UK
whatifistan?
the united states of butwhatabout?
the scary thing, as far as I can see it, is that barring one or two that are falling apart in front of our eyes, all the Western European countries are following broadly the same path, regardless of subtleties in approach.
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Glad you are keeping an open mind and haven't already kneejerked to a conclusion at an early stage based on political bias.
Ventilators may be taken from stable patients for healthier ones, BMA says Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
If anyone is still interested in why Germany manages to test vastly more people despite facing the same global shortages of chemicals as the UK, this is a good summary.
It's complicated. Top line summary: Germany is more on the ball than we are. The chemical shortage is part of the mix however
I recommend reading the whole thing, but what I take away, (yes because it backs up my pre-held belief LOL) is that the privit secter when involved can and will achieve amazing things very quickly. in the US and here the CDC and Public Heath England, wanted a monopoly, on testing and then could not cope.
The NHS is full of lots of wonderful people who are highly skilled, working exceptionally hard and at the moment brave, but the organisation stretcher is rubbish.
Basically the Germans started earlier, moved faster and were better coordinated than we were. There are some structural reasons for this. I think what it shows is that marginal advantages can add up to a big difference when there are enough of them.
I'd be a bit wary of that reaction.life article re the differences between the German and UK testing situations. Much of it is entirely speculative and admits this is the case (eg the £billions comparison between the size of the biotech sectors but in fairness admitting the author doesn't know whether there is a difference in how many UK/German firms specialise in the kit which is actually relevant). Other bits of it are very know-it-all. I'm not sufficiently expert to judge the overall quality of the article or the validity of its conclusions, but the non-speculative know-it-all bits contain some big red flags that indicate the author knows surprisingly little about either the UK/German pharmaceutical industries and public health systems, and probably hasn't talked in depth to people who do while doing his research (he says he's followed some twitter threads but that isn't the same thing).
Quick google reveals the author is a fresh-out-of-uni Early Modern History grad from Cambridge University which may explain some of the lapses. I could see there's some logic in comparing the £billion sizes of UK and German biotech sectors with the caveat that's only going to tell you a limited amount about who's got access to what kit, and I can't see what he was thinking when he wrote "Of course, turnover is not as reliable an indication as revenue figures".
A huge giveaway is Public Health England has a number of public health laboratories which provide a number of centres of regional excellence.... Then there are the biosafety laboratories of great institutions such as the Francis Crick Institute, the Health Protection Agency, and the Centre for Emergency Preparedness and Response.
That's hilarious. You couldn't possibly have made that mistake if you'd visited Colindale, for example. Or talked in depth to someone who'd had a senior career in UK public health. Or even read the basic Wikipedia entries for PHE and the HPA! It's the sort of mistake a google-instaexpert makes due to lack of awareness of historic/political context. There is more stuff that smelled wrong but I won't go on.
In fairness the author does compile some interesting stuff about the German system. But then if he's so wrong about stuff that I do know, how much do I trust re the bits that I don't?
Fair enough. Do you have any thoughts on why the Germans are so far ahead of us with testing despite facing broadly the same set of circumstances?
I think this is a question that requires very deep expertise to answer and isn't one for the google'sperts or even the informed speculators. Jane Hill kept quizzing a UK professor about the UK situation on the Beeb today and while she was trying to manoeuvre him into saying something accusatory he just kept on saying it was all very complex and despite knowing a lot about the mechanics and technology of testing, he was in no position to answer. He emphasised the issue was a "systems problem" with severe logistical complications, not one of technological know-how or unavailability of competent technicians to run the tests.
Perhaps interestingly in regards to that article, he also emphasised that there were big trade-offs between a more "distributed" system in which more university labs got involved in testing, versus a more centralised one, and that they might help or they might get in the way (all kinds of problems from staff safety to the IT). He was happy to assume that PHE had their Big Brains on it with expertise in building and managing and entire testing infrastructure, and that was good enough for him. Unfortunately I get the impression the Big Brains in this highly specialised area are unlikely to speak publicly for some time to come!
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Apart from Germany and South Korea can you name any country that is performing better than the UK and it is far too early, unless you are political, to determine whether history will be kind or otherwise to the UK
History is going to be brutal with all our Govts (with a few worthy exceptions).....in the immediate aftermath no-one will want to hear the lessons, but in 5-10 years time the reckoning will start with many of our current political leaders being brought to book....
By people who are probably very glad that they are not the ones having to make life and death decisions each day with limited and changing data and limited resources and capabilities. Whilst still trying to manage their own lives, fears and loved ones.
I agree with your statement....but when poor decisions have resulted in tens of thousands of lives and economic carnage that is going to last a generation to put right...there needs to be accountability....otherwise what? We cannot let it pass...
There will be something like the Nuremberg trials...obviously we are not going to hang people...but it will not be pretty when our collective politicians are held to account
I am afraid that erosion of trust and faith in the police is something that has been happening for a very long time - starting back at least in the early 80s with the atrocious behaviour of some police forces during the miner's strike. There will always be people on the fringes of society who distrust or dislike the police because they are prevented from doing exactly what they want when they want even when it includes breaking the law. But since the 1980s that distrust and dislike has moved into demographics that previously had a good relationship with the police - the working and middle classes.
Of course in recent years this has been accentuated by the failings of the police to deal with basic crimes. This may not be entirely their fault with cuts and ever increasing demands but in the eyes of most people I believe there are basic things that the police should react to. When we see only 1 or 2% of burglaries being solved in some areas and the police loath to even give out crime numbers because it will reflect badly on their stats (this has happened twice to me in the last 5 years) then it is clear there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our police forces are operating.
The current crisis 'could' greatly improve the image of the police as they are being asked to do a very difficult job under very trying circumstances and most reasonable people would accept that most police are going to try and react reasonably. Unfortunately a few examples of police abusing their powers are likely to mean that the outcome is a force regarded with more suspicion rather than less.
For a number of people the De Mendez shooting was a revelation. When the police realised they'd shot the wrong person, they started a smear campaign against the dead man in the press. They even became upset when people didn't appear impressed with the smears. Which only stopped when the Major of London fired the police chief.
Or the Forest Gate raid. Again, when confronted with a screw up, they "found" indecent images on the hard drive of one of the men arrested in the raid. When a forensic IT expert pointed out that they had been added to the hard drive while the computer was in police custody... oh nothing to see here...
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Apart from Germany and South Korea can you name any country that is performing better than the UK and it is far too early, unless you are political, to determine whether history will be kind or otherwise to the UK
History is going to be brutal with all our Govts (with a few worthy exceptions).....in the immediate aftermath no-one will want to hear the lessons, but in 5-10 years time the reckoning will start with many of our current political leaders being brought to book....
By people who are probably very glad that they are not the ones having to make life and death decisions each day with limited and changing data and limited resources and capabilities. Whilst still trying to manage their own lives, fears and loved ones.
There will be something like the Nuremberg trials...
Ooh - will it be as effective as the Chilcott inquiry ?
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
CCP shills seem to love the 'It's Sinophobic to assume that a totalitarian state that run re-education death camps with the means, motive, and opportunity to cover up hundreds of thousands of deaths, would cover up 5 to 6 figure numbers of deaths' line.
In the aftermath of Covid 19....one thing far more terrifying than this virus would be a drumbeat leading us to conflict with China.....the 1930's over again, but this time with nukes aplenty
There is a difference between asking China to close wet markets and improve lab safety and nuking Beijing
Not locking up and killing people for saying that there may be a bit of medical problem might just be on the list of DontDoThisNextTimeOrWeMightGetSlightlyUpset.
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Glad you are keeping an open mind and haven't already kneejerked to a conclusion at an early stage based on political bias.
Ventilators may be taken from stable patients for healthier ones, BMA says Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
Jailed.
This explains the anger transference to China.
The government has a majority of 80 and make the law, by definition they cannot be criminally incompetent if they decided to do it
Crown immunity has absolutely nothing to do with the size of rhe government's majority.
I am afraid that erosion of trust and faith in the police is something that has been happening for a very long time - starting back at least in the early 80s with the atrocious behaviour of some police forces during the miner's strike. There will always be people on the fringes of society who distrust or dislike the police because they are prevented from doing exactly what they want when they want even when it includes breaking the law. But since the 1980s that distrust and dislike has moved into demographics that previously had a good relationship with the police - the working and middle classes.
Of course in recent years this has been accentuated by the failings of the police to deal with basic crimes. This may not be entirely their fault with cuts and ever increasing demands but in the eyes of most people I believe there are basic things that the police should react to. When we see only 1 or 2% of burglaries being solved in some areas and the police loath to even give out crime numbers because it will reflect badly on their stats (this has happened twice to me in the last 5 years) then it is clear there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our police forces are operating.
The current crisis 'could' greatly improve the image of the police as they are being asked to do a very difficult job under very trying circumstances and most reasonable people would accept that most police are going to try and react reasonably. Unfortunately a few examples of police abusing their powers are likely to mean that the outcome is a force regarded with more suspicion rather than less.
The Police appear to have ample resources when it comes to policing "hate crimes" on Twitter or historical allegations against Tories. It's just the stuff that's important to ordinary members of the public that they have not got the resources to deal with, such as anti-social behaviour and burglary.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
As transparent as the police arresting Dr Li Wenliang for spreading false rumours (the truth) about the virus?
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Glad you are keeping an open mind and haven't already kneejerked to a conclusion at an early stage based on political bias.
Ventilators may be taken from stable patients for healthier ones, BMA says Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
Jailed.
This explains the anger transference to China.
The government has a majority of 80 and make the law, by definition they cannot be criminally incompetent if they decided to do it
Crown immunity has absolutely nothing to do with the size of rhe government's majority.
It does if there is a hung parliament and a good chance ministers will no longer be Her Majesty's government
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
CCP shills seem to love the 'It's Sinophobic to assume that a totalitarian state that run re-education death camps with the means, motive, and opportunity to cover up hundreds of thousands of deaths, would cover up 5 to 6 figure numbers of deaths' line.
In the aftermath of Covid 19....one thing far more terrifying than this virus would be a drumbeat leading us to conflict with China.....the 1930's over again, but this time with nukes aplenty
There is a difference between asking China to close wet markets and improve lab safety and nuking Beijing
Not locking up and killing people for saying that there may be a bit of medical problem might just be on the list of DontDoThisNextTimeOrWeMightGetSlightlyUpset.
The principal issue with the way the regulations are drafted is that it is an offence not to obey a police instruction to go home, whether or not the reason your excursion is being terminated is in line with the allowable reasons. That’s why Sumption was so exercised - essentially the police are in the right, even when they are wrong.
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Apart from Germany and South Korea can you name any country that is performing better than the UK and it is far too early, unless you are political, to determine whether history will be kind or otherwise to the UK
History is going to be brutal with all our Govts (with a few worthy exceptions).....in the immediate aftermath no-one will want to hear the lessons, but in 5-10 years time the reckoning will start with many of our current political leaders being brought to book....
By people who are probably very glad that they are not the ones having to make life and death decisions each day with limited and changing data and limited resources and capabilities. Whilst still trying to manage their own lives, fears and loved ones.
I agree with your statement....but when poor decisions have resulted in tens of thousands of lives and economic carnage that is going to last a generation to put right...there needs to be accountability....otherwise what? We cannot let it pass...
There will be something like the Nuremberg trials...obviously we are not going to hang people...but it will not be pretty when our collective politicians are held to account
It is the virus that is causing the carnage not the politicians. They are dealing with it as best they can. No country has not made not mistakes. No country will not make more mistakes. Not because the politicians are lazy, cruel or incompetent but because it is the nature of tackling a once in a 100 years fast moving challenging problem.
I wont forgive the politicians for how they handled Brexit for example as that was something within their control. Whilst coronavirus will do far more damage than Brexit, I will give huge latitude to the political, scientific and medical leaders and teams trying their best to help.
And encourage everyone to do the same. You are probably right though, that in a few years time the complainers will have their day and todays leaders will be publicly shamed. It will be a travesty.
I am afraid that erosion of trust and faith in the police is something that has been happening for a very long time - starting back at least in the early 80s with the atrocious behaviour of some police forces during the miner's strike. There will always be people on the fringes of society who distrust or dislike the police because they are prevented from doing exactly what they want when they want even when it includes breaking the law. But since the 1980s that distrust and dislike has moved into demographics that previously had a good relationship with the police - the working and middle classes.
Of course in recent years this has been accentuated by the failings of the police to deal with basic crimes. This may not be entirely their fault with cuts and ever increasing demands but in the eyes of most people I believe there are basic things that the police should react to. When we see only 1 or 2% of burglaries being solved in some areas and the police loath to even give out crime numbers because it will reflect badly on their stats (this has happened twice to me in the last 5 years) then it is clear there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our police forces are operating.
The current crisis 'could' greatly improve the image of the police as they are being asked to do a very difficult job under very trying circumstances and most reasonable people would accept that most police are going to try and react reasonably. Unfortunately a few examples of police abusing their powers are likely to mean that the outcome is a force regarded with more suspicion rather than less.
The Police appear to have ample resources when it comes to policing "hate crimes" on Twitter or historical allegations against Tories. It's just the stuff that's important to ordinary members of the public that they have not got the resources to deal with, such as anti-social behaviour and burglary.
Burglars biggest group signing on as everyone is in !!!
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
CCP shills seem to love the 'It's Sinophobic to assume that a totalitarian state that run re-education death camps with the means, motive, and opportunity to cover up hundreds of thousands of deaths, would cover up 5 to 6 figure numbers of deaths' line.
In the aftermath of Covid 19....one thing far more terrifying than this virus would be a drumbeat leading us to conflict with China.....the 1930's over again, but this time with nukes aplenty
There is a difference between asking China to close wet markets and improve lab safety and nuking Beijing
Not locking up and killing people for saying that there may be a bit of medical problem might just be on the list of DontDoThisNextTimeOrWeMightGetSlightlyUpset.
I am afraid that erosion of trust and faith in the police is something that has been happening for a very long time - starting back at least in the early 80s with the atrocious behaviour of some police forces during the miner's strike. There will always be people on the fringes of society who distrust or dislike the police because they are prevented from doing exactly what they want when they want even when it includes breaking the law. But since the 1980s that distrust and dislike has moved into demographics that previously had a good relationship with the police - the working and middle classes.
Of course in recent years this has been accentuated by the failings of the police to deal with basic crimes. This may not be entirely their fault with cuts and ever increasing demands but in the eyes of most people I believe there are basic things that the police should react to. When we see only 1 or 2% of burglaries being solved in some areas and the police loath to even give out crime numbers because it will reflect badly on their stats (this has happened twice to me in the last 5 years) then it is clear there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our police forces are operating.
The current crisis 'could' greatly improve the image of the police as they are being asked to do a very difficult job under very trying circumstances and most reasonable people would accept that most police are going to try and react reasonably. Unfortunately a few examples of police abusing their powers are likely to mean that the outcome is a force regarded with more suspicion rather than less.
The Police appear to have ample resources when it comes to policing "hate crimes" on Twitter or historical allegations against Tories. It's just the stuff that's important to ordinary members of the public that they have not got the resources to deal with, such as anti-social behaviour and burglary.
Burglars biggest group signing on as everyone is in !!!
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
As transparent as the police arresting Dr Li Wenliang for spreading false rumours (the truth) about the virus?
There was a cover up at the start...I'm not saying that.....
But Wuhan Medics have been sharing data with colleagues in journals about Covid 19...
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
CCP shills seem to love the 'It's Sinophobic to assume that a totalitarian state that run re-education death camps with the means, motive, and opportunity to cover up hundreds of thousands of deaths, would cover up 5 to 6 figure numbers of deaths' line.
In the aftermath of Covid 19....one thing far more terrifying than this virus would be a drumbeat leading us to conflict with China.....the 1930's over again, but this time with nukes aplenty
There is a difference between asking China to close wet markets and improve lab safety and nuking Beijing
Not locking up and killing people for saying that there may be a bit of medical problem might just be on the list of DontDoThisNextTimeOrWeMightGetSlightlyUpset.
Economic sanctions on China maybe, not war
Not war?? That is very measured of you H...
Yes, charge them a 100,000% import tariff on the Tritium in the nuclear weapons we will fire at them.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
CCP shills seem to love the 'It's Sinophobic to assume that a totalitarian state that run re-education death camps with the means, motive, and opportunity to cover up hundreds of thousands of deaths, would cover up 5 to 6 figure numbers of deaths' line.
In the aftermath of Covid 19....one thing far more terrifying than this virus would be a drumbeat leading us to conflict with China.....the 1930's over again, but this time with nukes aplenty
There is a difference between asking China to close wet markets and improve lab safety and nuking Beijing
Not locking up and killing people for saying that there may be a bit of medical problem might just be on the list of DontDoThisNextTimeOrWeMightGetSlightlyUpset.
Economic sanctions on China maybe, not war
Not war?? That is very measured of you H...
We need to save our resources for the Second Battle of Mons Graupius when the Scots make a break for it...
What will live in infamy are Chinese live animal markets.
Yes. And all those horrifying videos of Chinese people eating animals alive. And of course their near annihilation of the pangolin, for quack Chinese medicine. A creature which now seems to be haunting them.
This is why I reckon there will be a Cold War after this. The anger at China will be intense. Those countries that are able to distance themselves from China - ie the not quite so rich West - will do so.
As the horror grows, so also the clear failure upon which blame lies.
The more failure of governments becomes obvious, the more those governments and supporters try to pin all blame on China as a diversion. Pathetic really. Quite pathetic.
A diversion from what ?
The govt's apparent failure to prepare for a totalitarian state to enable then coverup a killer virus ?
Will the inevitable public inquiry into the UK’s Covid-19 response pin the blame on a few scapegoats? I hope not. Britain’s failure to move quickly and effectively is the symptom of a more comprehensive system failure. More than three months after the virus first appeared in Wuhan, England and Wales still lack the necessary testing capacity and surveillance infrastructure to shut down the epidemic. Crucial frontline workers are still doing their jobs without adequate personal protective equipment. Public Health England (PHE) seem unable to increase the daily number of tests in line with European neighbours. As other countries acted swiftly to contain the epidemic, the UK appears indecisive and delayed, shifting late in the day from a controversial herd immunity strategy to a lockdown. History won’t look kindly on Britain’s response.
Glad you are keeping an open mind and haven't already kneejerked to a conclusion at an early stage based on political bias.
Ventilators may be taken from stable patients for healthier ones, BMA says Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
Jailed.
This explains the anger transference to China.
The government has a majority of 80 and make the law, by definition they cannot be criminally incompetent if they decided to do it
Crown immunity has absolutely nothing to do with the size of rhe government's majority.
It does if there is a hung parliament and a good chance ministers will no longer be Her Majesty's government
No, that is irrelevant. Crown immunity does not apply only while in office.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
As transparent as the police arresting Dr Li Wenliang for spreading false rumours (the truth) about the virus?
There was a cover up at the start...I'm not saying that.....
But Wuhan Medics have been sharing data with colleagues in journals about Covid 19...
The medics aren't the problem. The Chinese State is.
Bit like Chernobyl - the Russians on the ground were generally good guys to very high degree... The system, not so much.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
CCP shills seem to love the 'It's Sinophobic to assume that a totalitarian state that run re-education death camps with the means, motive, and opportunity to cover up hundreds of thousands of deaths, would cover up 5 to 6 figure numbers of deaths' line.
In the aftermath of Covid 19....one thing far more terrifying than this virus would be a drumbeat leading us to conflict with China.....the 1930's over again, but this time with nukes aplenty
There is a difference between asking China to close wet markets and improve lab safety and nuking Beijing
Not locking up and killing people for saying that there may be a bit of medical problem might just be on the list of DontDoThisNextTimeOrWeMightGetSlightlyUpset.
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
I am not convinced by the WHO in regard to China
I think the Chinese figures are probably no further out than other countries.
My wife works on medical journals which include Chinese senior doctors.... She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
CCP shills seem to love the 'It's Sinophobic to assume that a totalitarian state that run re-education death camps with the means, motive, and opportunity to cover up hundreds of thousands of deaths, would cover up 5 to 6 figure numbers of deaths' line.
In the aftermath of Covid 19....one thing far more terrifying than this virus would be a drumbeat leading us to conflict with China.....the 1930's over again, but this time with nukes aplenty
There is a difference between asking China to close wet markets and improve lab safety and nuking Beijing
Not locking up and killing people for saying that there may be a bit of medical problem might just be on the list of DontDoThisNextTimeOrWeMightGetSlightlyUpset.
Economic sanctions on China maybe, not war
Don't want the UK pacification of insurgents capability to be watered down.
I am afraid that erosion of trust and faith in the police is something that has been happening for a very long time - starting back at least in the early 80s with the atrocious behaviour of some police forces during the miner's strike. There will always be people on the fringes of society who distrust or dislike the police because they are prevented from doing exactly what they want when they want even when it includes breaking the law. But since the 1980s that distrust and dislike has moved into demographics that previously had a good relationship with the police - the working and middle classes.
Of course in recent years this has been accentuated by the failings of the police to deal with basic crimes. This may not be entirely their fault with cuts and ever increasing demands but in the eyes of most people I believe there are basic things that the police should react to. When we see only 1 or 2% of burglaries being solved in some areas and the police loath to even give out crime numbers because it will reflect badly on their stats (this has happened twice to me in the last 5 years) then it is clear there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our police forces are operating.
The current crisis 'could' greatly improve the image of the police as they are being asked to do a very difficult job under very trying circumstances and most reasonable people would accept that most police are going to try and react reasonably. Unfortunately a few examples of police abusing their powers are likely to mean that the outcome is a force regarded with more suspicion rather than less.
The Police appear to have ample resources when it comes to policing "hate crimes" on Twitter or historical allegations against Tories. It's just the stuff that's important to ordinary members of the public that they have not got the resources to deal with, such as anti-social behaviour and burglary.
Burglars biggest group signing on as everyone is in !!!
Surely the smart ones have moved onto offices?
I do genuinely think the Mafia and organised crime are struggling under the pandemic....they need to move into more lucrative areas such as producing hand sanitiser, face masks and other useful PPE equipment and away from migrant trafficking, extortion, gambling and prostitution...and to using contactless and away from disease ridden cash....
The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate. Make of that what you will.
I think you're placing too much trust in the WHO.
Ooooh, yes, don't believe it. It's all a conspiraceee!
BBC report having a go at online retailers being open, asking are they really essential?
Yes they can be. If online retailers closed down that could have knock on effects on many things including the ability of key workers to go to work.
My wife is a key worker in healthcare. She tore her trousers she wears to work the other day - obviously couldn't go to the shops to get more because they're closed but could get two new pairs delivered.
Online delivery of new clothes can be a necessity sometimes not just a luxury.
Comments
Nor Mr Dancer, who would very politely no doubt ask for an update on the Second Punic War....
Embarrassingly I think I assumed the US wasn't on the chart because I was expecting it to have the worst trajectory of all. My bias showing itself.
Robin Cook will be dancing (!) in his grave.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/01/public-inquiry-coronavirus-mass-testing-pandemic
log (deaths/pop) = log(deaths) - log(pop)
Similar idea to why you can use an "offset" in a Poisson regression to change from a regression of counts to a regression of rates.
The usefulness of the logged rates chart is you can compare which countries are doing better/worse "per head" in a way you can't do on the logged deaths chart, just pointing out that you don't learn any more from the slopes/curvature (eg if you're looking for signs of levelling out) from the logged rates graph than you would from the logged deaths graph.
https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1224734993966096387
Now daily reports that the figures are fake,Sky news last night reporting by as much as a factor of 40.
Why is this important? It means if it is criminal incompetence by politicians leading to people needlessly dying, those politicians will be pursued by families in courts, prosecuted.
Jailed.
This explains the anger transference to China.
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1245124087376220165
Her daughter works as a carer - one of her daughter's work colleagues has just died of the virus - aged 30, in good health. Wasn't admitted to hospital - died very quickly at home and post mortem showed the virus.
Very shocking.
And a rifle each in case of alien invasion. Its a disgrace.
She said that the Chinese have been particularly transparent in sharing data about all things Covid 19...but heh...why let the truth get in the way of a good old racist anti-Chinese conspiracy theory.....
Pittosporum - maybe Arundel Green?
No govt or bank guarantee. Expected return 1.3 if business survives or 0 if it doesnt. Sounds fair
With govt guarantee. Expected return 1.3 if business survives or 0.6-0.8 if it doesnt. Sounds very good for the bank
With govt and personal guarantee. Expected return 1.3 if business survives or personal guarantor doesnt go bankrupt, 0.6-0.8 if it doesnt. Sounds extortionate.
The guarantor is probably way better off asking the same banks for personal credit cards and moving the balance to the business from there.
* The numbers are actually slightly better for the banks as bankrupt businesses will on average have made some payments, and the best case for them is businesses who struggle to pay back the loans incurring penalties and ongoing fees for many years which will happen to some.
Perhaps interestingly in regards to that article, he also emphasised that there were big trade-offs between a more "distributed" system in which more university labs got involved in testing, versus a more centralised one, and that they might help or they might get in the way (all kinds of problems from staff safety to the IT). He was happy to assume that PHE had their Big Brains on it with expertise in building and managing and entire testing infrastructure, and that was good enough for him. Unfortunately I get the impression the Big Brains in this highly specialised area are unlikely to speak publicly for some time to come!
I know it's not much fun to come on here and wring our collective hands but there's a certain comfort in knowing we're all in this together.
It's bloody awful 'eh?
(Rhetorical as I'm off for a workout on my bike - in my own abode)
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1245353683866566662?s=20
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1245355609140101123?s=20
The legal obligations are not the same as the advice and the police are confusing the two, as the NPCC guidance shows. This is not just confusion. It appears to be intentional. And it is wrong to mislead citizens about what is or is not a criminal offence.
I have no problem with a policeman reminding someone of the advice. I have a very big problem indeed with them telling someone that they will be committing a criminal offence when they won’t be or stopping them doing something which is lawful.
I think as much as a 20% contraction in GDP for the next quarter is coming. Great depression territory. Sky high unemployment. Huge government spending required. Vastly reduced tax base with which to recoup it from. This won't be a V shaped recession, either. Even those who don't lose their jobs will be staying at home, not spending, shocked. Things will get very ugly.
I am afraid that erosion of trust and faith in the police is something that has been happening for a very long time - starting back at least in the early 80s with the atrocious behaviour of some police forces during the miner's strike. There will always be people on the fringes of society who distrust or dislike the police because they are prevented from doing exactly what they want when they want even when it includes breaking the law. But since the 1980s that distrust and dislike has moved into demographics that previously had a good relationship with the police - the working and middle classes.
Of course in recent years this has been accentuated by the failings of the police to deal with basic crimes. This may not be entirely their fault with cuts and ever increasing demands but in the eyes of most people I believe there are basic things that the police should react to. When we see only 1 or 2% of burglaries being solved in some areas and the police loath to even give out crime numbers because it will reflect badly on their stats (this has happened twice to me in the last 5 years) then it is clear there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our police forces are operating.
The current crisis 'could' greatly improve the image of the police as they are being asked to do a very difficult job under very trying circumstances and most reasonable people would accept that most police are going to try and react reasonably. Unfortunately a few examples of police abusing their powers are likely to mean that the outcome is a force regarded with more suspicion rather than less.
So you hope you never have to use it - the nuclear weapon or the excess ICU capacity - but you are prepared to carry the overhead because the consequences of not having it if the black swan event occurs - homeland attack by foreign power or deadly virus epidemic - are potentially so dire.
Not a perfect comparison but hardly "farcical". C'mon. As if!
Municipality....deaths in 2019...deaths in 2020...differences
Albino 12 99 +87
Alzano Lombardo 8 83 +75
Bergamo 101 398 +297
Clusone 8 59 +51
Nembro 11 121 +110
Romano di Lombardia 10 63 +53
Scanzorosciate 9 65 +56
Seriate 18 78 +60
Treviglio 17 69 +52
Brescia 134 281 +147
Orzinuovi 9 61 +52
Crema 23 103 +80
Cremona 54 136 +82
Piacenza 75 279 +204
Fidenza 20 71 +51
Parma 127 259 +132
Pesaro 66 188 +122
Codogno 15 87 +72
the united states of butwhatabout?
the scary thing, as far as I can see it, is that barring one or two that are falling apart in front of our eyes, all the Western European countries are following broadly the same path, regardless of subtleties in approach.
There will be something like the Nuremberg trials...obviously we are not going to hang people...but it will not be pretty when our collective politicians are held to account
Or the Forest Gate raid. Again, when confronted with a screw up, they "found" indecent images on the hard drive of one of the men arrested in the raid. When a forensic IT expert pointed out that they had been added to the hard drive while the computer was in police custody... oh nothing to see here...
As transparent as the police arresting Dr Li Wenliang for spreading false rumours
(the truth) about the virus?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-52121216
That's a big fine for not telling the plods what you're up to....
I wont forgive the politicians for how they handled Brexit for example as that was something within their control. Whilst coronavirus will do far more damage than Brexit, I will give huge latitude to the political, scientific and medical leaders and teams trying their best to help.
And encourage everyone to do the same. You are probably right though, that in a few years time the complainers will have their day and todays leaders will be publicly shamed. It will be a travesty.
But Wuhan Medics have been sharing data with colleagues in journals about Covid 19...
Total positive tests were 4,782, up from 4,053 yesterday, but still well down on the 6,000+ numbers at the end of last week.
However, inside there was a new low for "percentage positive" which is now just 14%.
Bit like Chernobyl - the Russians on the ground were generally good guys to very high degree... The system, not so much.
Yes they can be. If online retailers closed down that could have knock on effects on many things including the ability of key workers to go to work.
My wife is a key worker in healthcare. She tore her trousers she wears to work the other day - obviously couldn't go to the shops to get more because they're closed but could get two new pairs delivered.
Online delivery of new clothes can be a necessity sometimes not just a luxury.