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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It won’t be Brexit that defines Boris but the decisions he mad

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited April 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It won’t be Brexit that defines Boris but the decisions he made at the start of the coronavirus crisis

With the UK death toll rising by the day it is perhaps worth reflecting on the two decisions the government made at the start of the crisis. Firstly there was the reluctance to follow other nations to impose lockdowns straight away after the first death and then there was the agreement to allow this year’s Cheltenham Festival to take place as planned.

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Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,061
    edited April 2020
    Stay Home, Save Lives, Protect the NHS was not the slogan at the time that the people currently dying were infected.

    https://twitter.com/chunkymark/status/1245608567236726784?s=19

    3 weeks seems like years ago on the current timelines, things change so quickly. The next day the Football leagues suspended their fixtures.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    Foxy said:

    Stay Home, Save Lives, Protect the NHS was not the slogan at the time that the people currently dying were infected.

    https://twitter.com/chunkymark/status/1245608567236726784?s=19

    The claim was wrong, and that was fairly obvious at the time.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    I don’t know if these lists are exhaustive, but it gives a good overview.

    Every Vaccine and Treatment in Development for COVID-19, So Far
    https://www.visualcapitalist.com/every-vaccine-treatment-covid-19-so-far/

    I don’t see much UK representation in the list of diagnostics (or treatments in the clinic), which goes some way to explain why we can’t ramp up testing very quickly
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,716
    The policy on Cheltenham certainly seemed 'at variance' with what was known about the virus. Probably wouldn't have been held if an 'ordinary' flu epidemic was getting going.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    Nigelb said:
    Worth thinking about by those who say we weren’t sufficiently warned.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    As per last thread, although the papers are critical of Cheltenham, there is still not much evidence of a spike -- the three celebrities struck down might be only two since Lee Mack says he caught it from the driver who took him to Cheltenham each day. Of course, with no testing (or contact tracing) it is hard to be certain. The question of whether there is a difference between indoor and outdoor events was raised at the regular press conferences this week.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,742

    The policy on Cheltenham certainly seemed 'at variance' with what was known about the virus. Probably wouldn't have been held if an 'ordinary' flu epidemic was getting going.

    Well, it hasn’t been cancelled for the very many ordinary flu epidemics we’ve had in the last 75 years.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    Re Boris's culpability ... maybe. The suppressed report that identified inadequate NHS capacity, and the annual winter crises that showed this too, pre-dated Boris's premiership. Aside from HMG's inexplicable failure to appoint a production and distribution czar, is there much to blame Boris for?

    I'd say the greater risk to Boris continuing in office is that there is not a general election in sight, and there are now plausible alternative leaders like Matt Hancock and Rishi Sunak.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    If you want to know whether Cheltenham had much effect or not, surely the place to look is Ireland, not the U.K.?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    My fuel company has just reduced its gas prices by 25%, from April 15th. 25%!

    A shame I don’t use much gas during the summer.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    No, it really happened.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Foxy said:

    Stay Home, Save Lives, Protect the NHS was not the slogan at the time that the people currently dying were infected.

    https://twitter.com/chunkymark/status/1245608567236726784?s=19

    3 weeks seems like years ago on the current timelines, things change so quickly. The next day the Football leagues suspended their fixtures.

    No, it was Get out There, Get the Bug, and Be Immune.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,716
    ydoethur said:

    The policy on Cheltenham certainly seemed 'at variance' with what was known about the virus. Probably wouldn't have been held if an 'ordinary' flu epidemic was getting going.

    Well, it hasn’t been cancelled for the very many ordinary flu epidemics we’ve had in the last 75 years.
    That's true, although have we had one at the time of Cheltenham. But your implication is right; we rarely, if ever, cancel big events for flu. IIRC everything went on more or less normally in 1957.

    I think too that's it's very easy to be wise after the event. Our, and our Government's, eyes were elsewhere, although that's not to say that somebody in a high place shouldn't have been watching the world outside Brexit.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FPT regarding the discussion on the legality or otherwise of carrying Swiss Army Knives etc ... I'm guessing they are illegal to carry on a plane?

    I once accidentally smuggled one into a flight. I'd been given a Swiss Army Knife as a present and had it on my key ring. To be honest rarely used the knife blade itself besides opening parcels but found permanently carrying a bottle opener and screwdriver heads in it to be useful.

    After parking at the airport I unthinkingly just put my keys in my carry on bag and went through. It was only when I landed overseas and went into my bag I saw the knife and realised what I'd done.

    Needless to say none of the "Security Theatre" of the airport did anything to spot the knife.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    alex_ said:

    If you want to know whether Cheltenham had much effect or not, surely the place to look is Ireland, not the U.K.?

    However, to date there has been just one [Irish] case linked to the Festival – a man diagnosed with Covid-19 two weeks after he returned to Ireland. He has not been named and it is unclear where he became infected.
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/apr/02/cheltenham-faces-criticism-after-racegoers-suffer-covid-19-symptoms
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    The early government response was confusing. It seemed driven by ideology more than science. Some weird contortion the British didn’t accept enforced rules. Restrictions were voluntary advice and ineffective if not actually counter productive.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,716

    FPT regarding the discussion on the legality or otherwise of carrying Swiss Army Knives etc ... I'm guessing they are illegal to carry on a plane?

    I once accidentally smuggled one into a flight. I'd been given a Swiss Army Knife as a present and had it on my key ring. To be honest rarely used the knife blade itself besides opening parcels but found permanently carrying a bottle opener and screwdriver heads in it to be useful.

    After parking at the airport I unthinkingly just put my keys in my carry on bag and went through. It was only when I landed overseas and went into my bag I saw the knife and realised what I'd done.

    Needless to say none of the "Security Theatre" of the airport did anything to spot the knife.

    I had a bottle opener/corkscrew confiscated while 'sort of' back-packing in New Zealand a few years ago.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Cheltenham and Atletico will be long forgotten. What matters is how they handle the economic consequences.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346
    In regards to lockdowns, yesterday 24 days into their lockdown there were still well over 4000 new cases in Italy. Now I know that means the percentage increase is low, but that is still 4000+ new infections when people haven’t been out for 24 days.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    tlg86 said:

    Cheltenham and Atletico will be long forgotten. What matters is how they handle the economic consequences.

    Not sure that’s true, they will be key topics at the inevitable public inquiry.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    In regards to lockdowns, yesterday 24 days into their lockdown there were still well over 4000 new cases in Italy. Now I know that means the percentage increase is low, but that is still 4000+ new infections when people haven’t been out for 24 days.

    Families.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Thankfully as we saw in the GE , PB is not representative of the Uk.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    FPT regarding the discussion on the legality or otherwise of carrying Swiss Army Knives etc ... I'm guessing they are illegal to carry on a plane?

    I once accidentally smuggled one into a flight. I'd been given a Swiss Army Knife as a present and had it on my key ring. To be honest rarely used the knife blade itself besides opening parcels but found permanently carrying a bottle opener and screwdriver heads in it to be useful.

    After parking at the airport I unthinkingly just put my keys in my carry on bag and went through. It was only when I landed overseas and went into my bag I saw the knife and realised what I'd done.

    Needless to say none of the "Security Theatre" of the airport did anything to spot the knife.

    I did exactly the same thing only a couple of years ago!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,045
    Nigelb said:
    It's only going to stoke Chinese conspiracy theories that there was a US organisation doing anything Coronavirus related in Wuhan.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cheltenham and Atletico will be long forgotten. What matters is how they handle the economic consequences.

    Not sure that’s true, they will be key topics at the inevitable public inquiry.
    Yes and to reduce this to economics is close-to-nonsense. When people know people who are dying it has a higher visceral importance. Maslow and all that.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    As per last thread, although the papers are critical of Cheltenham, there is still not much evidence of a spike -- the three celebrities struck down might be only two since Lee Mack says he caught it from the driver who took him to Cheltenham each day. Of course, with no testing (or contact tracing) it is hard to be certain. The question of whether there is a difference between indoor and outdoor events was raised at the regular press conferences this week.

    Good morning team. First off feeling very shamed about @Richard_Nabavi's list of cultural events watched. Number of suchlike for me: zero.

    Second on Cheltenham. Was it a mass infecting event? No idea. Of all the people I know who went, and all the people I met in close proximity after I returned, none have it. Or all had it asymptomatically.

    But that's just an anecdote so who knows what the numbers really are.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Jonathan said:

    In regards to lockdowns, yesterday 24 days into their lockdown there were still well over 4000 new cases in Italy. Now I know that means the percentage increase is low, but that is still 4000+ new infections when people haven’t been out for 24 days.

    Families.
    One of the problems with releasing the lockdown is that some within-household transmissions may be quite recent. We know from various anecdotes that you can go some time in contact with someone without being infected.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Jonathan said:

    Of course the government made mistakes. It’s what governments do. It’s what everyone does. Only Trump never makes mistakes.

    The key thing is what you do once it is clear you have made a mistake.

    Which is why I've been pro the Government this past fortnight.

    On the other hand, they really were bloody incompetent and typically cavalier early on. As I've mentioned on here frequently, if someone like me can be buying masks and anti-bacterials in January it beggars belief that our Government didn't act for a further six weeks.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880

    The policy on Cheltenham certainly seemed 'at variance' with what was known about the virus. Probably wouldn't have been held if an 'ordinary' flu epidemic was getting going.

    Isn't Cheltenham basically like Coachella for tories who like animal exploitation (ie all of them)? Cancelling it could have been problematic.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926

    FPT regarding the discussion on the legality or otherwise of carrying Swiss Army Knives etc ... I'm guessing they are illegal to carry on a plane?

    I once accidentally smuggled one into a flight. I'd been given a Swiss Army Knife as a present and had it on my key ring. To be honest rarely used the knife blade itself besides opening parcels but found permanently carrying a bottle opener and screwdriver heads in it to be useful.

    After parking at the airport I unthinkingly just put my keys in my carry on bag and went through. It was only when I landed overseas and went into my bag I saw the knife and realised what I'd done.

    Needless to say none of the "Security Theatre" of the airport did anything to spot the knife.

    I did exactly the same thing only a couple of years ago!
    We were issued Leathermans at work 15 to 20 years ago because the Swiss Army knives' blades did not lock open which raised the danger of cutting yourself. As @Philip_Thompson says, it is more about the attachments.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    There's one thing I'm curious about with respect to COVID - 19 testing. Once the laboratory receives the sample, the QC procedures will be well-known, but how simple is the sampling procedure?

    Tickling the buccal cavity seems a little hit and miss. This is ignorance speaking as I've no idea. Are there any figures on the rate of false negatives? The result can only be as good as the sampling procedure after all.

    You usually know when you have blood for the antibody procedure so this shouldn't be a problem.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cheltenham and Atletico will be long forgotten. What matters is how they handle the economic consequences.

    Not sure that’s true, they will be key topics at the inevitable public inquiry.
    True, but previous public inquiries - the Iraq War one for example - have tended to be slow burns that create a lot of anticipation then come out with slightly ambiguous and low-key conclusions.

    It'll be all "the report makes clear that the government addressed the *right* disease, the 1918 flu pandemic, but that the *wrong* disease subsequently infected the population..."
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    As to the thread header I'm not sure if the tardiness in testing will be a defining attribute or a pasty tax passing phase (I know, great insight).

    Like all these things out isn't the initial issue, but how it's handled and I think if the govt doesn't get to grips with and increase the amount of testing soon, and if they fail to reach some of the set out numbers, they will suffer at the hands of public opinion.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    US covid19 stimulus payments going out, if printing money and giving it directly to the voters turns out to be as popular as it sounds we could see a lot more of it in the future...

    https://twitter.com/alphatrends/status/1245877018446548993
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    Joe Biden has eased slightly overnight to 1.17 (1/6 in old money, or 85.5%) against being Dem nominee. It is remarkable that a man with an unassailable delegate lead is priced with a 16 per cent chance of falling by the wayside before the July convention. (Be aware of your commission rate on Betfair!)

    It shows what a poor candidate Biden is that punters (including yours truly) will not back a man who, if it were anyone else in any other circumstances, would be almost home and hosed.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited April 2020

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    It's not though really, is it? Every country in Asia was onto this. Johnson is slapdash. Always has been and his cavalier and nonchalant approach together with British arrogance (we know best) has cost lives.

    My support for the Government stems from the fact that they eventually got it right. And I don't mind it if people learn from their mistakes. But let's not pretend it was anything other than that.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    Indeed - in Spain it was the women's March in Madrid. Incidentally, watching France 24 and Euronews dominated by stories of PPE shortages, selfish behaviour by France, USA, test shortages, Care Home problems, ventilator shortages, over-zealous enforcement of the rules, not enough enforcement of the rules, health systems breaking down all over Europe. No mention of the UK of course. What it tells you is that there is nothing that special about the problems in the UK. Our police are much the same as the rest our PPE issues much the same, worries about ICU.. all pretty much the same. Helps give some perspective which will no doubt be ignored on here and by the UK press.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    No, it will be the aftermath that defines this government - the choices it makes when there are real choices there: tax, spend, cut, borrow, where, how, when.
  • SockySocky Posts: 404


    We were issued Leathermans at work 15 to 20 years ago because the Swiss Army knives' blades did not lock open which raised the danger of cutting yourself.

    Carrying a knife with a locking blade is banned in the UK (yes, stupid law).
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    With hindsight we should have elected a government with foresight.
  • SockySocky Posts: 404

    The policy on Cheltenham certainly seemed 'at variance' with what was known about the virus.

    My recollection is that the experts didn't believe mass sporting events were major spreaders.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    This was the infuriating thing about the government's response (and even trying to criticize the government's response here at the time): By the time the British had to deal with it, we had the benefit of hindsight!

    Other countries, particularly in Asia had been dealing this for months, various different policy responses had been tried and we already knew a lot about what worked and what didn't. The British government apparently chose to ignore all of them and stick to a plan they wrote years ago for a different disease.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    FPT regarding the discussion on the legality or otherwise of carrying Swiss Army Knives etc ... I'm guessing they are illegal to carry on a plane?

    I once accidentally smuggled one into a flight. I'd been given a Swiss Army Knife as a present and had it on my key ring. To be honest rarely used the knife blade itself besides opening parcels but found permanently carrying a bottle opener and screwdriver heads in it to be useful.

    After parking at the airport I unthinkingly just put my keys in my carry on bag and went through. It was only when I landed overseas and went into my bag I saw the knife and realised what I'd done.

    Needless to say none of the "Security Theatre" of the airport did anything to spot the knife.

    I did exactly the same thing only a couple of years ago!
    We were issued Leathermans at work 15 to 20 years ago because the Swiss Army knives' blades did not lock open which raised the danger of cutting yourself. As @Philip_Thompson says, it is more about the attachments.
    I rolled up to an airport once with camping gear: a cooking stove and solid inflammable fuel and paraffin. Officers weren't too happy with me.

    I've also until recently regularly carried exotic plants in my luggage. I know, I know ... I don't anymore.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cheltenham and Atletico will be long forgotten. What matters is how they handle the economic consequences.

    Not sure that’s true, they will be key topics at the inevitable public inquiry.
    What makes you think there’ll be a public enquiry? That’s a decision for the government.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    With hindsight we should have elected a government with foresight.
    At least we’re not the Americans, who didn’t have the foresight to elect a government with hindsight.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    With hindsight we should have elected a government with foresight.
    Brilliant!!!

    Although that doesn't mean Jeremy Corbyn. The other Jeremy, Hunt, would have been absolutely brilliant in this. He's the Prime Minister we needed in this crisis.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    Joe Biden has eased slightly overnight to 1.17 (1/6 in old money, or 85.5%) against being Dem nominee. It is remarkable that a man with an unassailable delegate lead is priced with a 16 per cent chance of falling by the wayside before the July convention. (Be aware of your commission rate on Betfair!)

    It shows what a poor candidate Biden is that punters (including yours truly) will not back a man who, if it were anyone else in any other circumstances, would be almost home and hosed.

    Or it assumes his catching the virus is inevitable, and is otherwise an accurate medical assessment of his chances.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Dura_Ace said:

    The policy on Cheltenham certainly seemed 'at variance' with what was known about the virus. Probably wouldn't have been held if an 'ordinary' flu epidemic was getting going.

    Isn't Cheltenham basically like Coachella for tories who like animal exploitation (ie all of them)? Cancelling it could have been problematic.
    A joint Tory-PIRA conference perhaps.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    This is ridiculous.

    I don't mind defending Boris but not on the indefensible.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    Some people can not comprehend an event that doesn’t have binary blame for the bad outcome.
    The same people think it is the job of the government to insure them against any event.

  • SockySocky Posts: 404

    The other Jeremy, Hunt, would have been absolutely brilliant in this. He's the Prime Minister we needed in this crisis.

    Then perhaps the left should not have spent all that time making a big joke about his surname?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    Its all very easy to criticize from the sidelines. I have been amszed at the sudden influx of experts who know it all.... especially Labour leaning pbers
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    edited April 2020

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    Asking organizers to cancel large events, closing pubs, asking people to work from home where appropriate, quarantine requirements for people arriving from places with a lot of contagious people - none of these constitute a lockdown.

    A lockdown is what you're getting because less disruptive things weren't done when there was time, and the government's run out of runway.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014
    Jonathan said:

    The early government response was confusing. It seemed driven by ideology more than science. Some weird contortion the British didn’t accept enforced rules. Restrictions were voluntary advice and ineffective if not actually counter productive.

    Good. Excellent. We’re not that sort of country.

    And this lockdown is fucking shit. The later it starts and sooner it’s over - the better.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    Asking organizers to cancel large events, closing pubs, asking people to work from home where appropriate, quarantine requirements for people arriving from places with a lot of contagious people - none of these constitute a lockdown.

    A lockdown is what you're getting because less disruptive things weren't done when there was time, and the government's run out of runway.
    Benefit of hindsight still applies
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    Its all very easy to criticize from the sidelines. I have been amszed at the sudden influx of experts who know it all.... especially Labour leaning pbers
    Oh I'm sure you have.

    And what about those of us warning in January about the severity of this?

    Let me be clear for your benefit though. Jeremy Corbyn would have been a total disaster in this crisis. And I am currently broadly supportive of Boris: more so than many of my Conservative friends.

    But let's not window dress this. The inability of the Right-wingers on here to be honest with themselves and this forum does little credit.

    Our Government were slow out of the blocks, nonchalant bordering on cavalier. They have failed to get their act together on testing and protective equipment. That much is known by everyone. So don't lie.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    Its all very easy to criticize from the sidelines. I have been amszed at the sudden influx of experts who know it all.... especially Labour leaning pbers
    Wait until the shrieking when the lockdown is lifted ...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The government was slow to spot the danger, slow to warm up the public to the danger and slow to take the necessary measures to lock down. It has been slow at procurement and slow to put into place the financial measures required.

    On all fronts it eventually did the right thing. The cost of this government’s lethargy has yet to be calculated.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    FPT regarding the discussion on the legality or otherwise of carrying Swiss Army Knives etc ... I'm guessing they are illegal to carry on a plane?

    I once accidentally smuggled one into a flight. I'd been given a Swiss Army Knife as a present and had it on my key ring. To be honest rarely used the knife blade itself besides opening parcels but found permanently carrying a bottle opener and screwdriver heads in it to be useful.

    After parking at the airport I unthinkingly just put my keys in my carry on bag and went through. It was only when I landed overseas and went into my bag I saw the knife and realised what I'd done.

    Needless to say none of the "Security Theatre" of the airport did anything to spot the knife.

    I did exactly the same thing only a couple of years ago!
    We were issued Leathermans at work 15 to 20 years ago because the Swiss Army knives' blades did not lock open which raised the danger of cutting yourself. As @Philip_Thompson says, it is more about the attachments.
    Many will be aware of the 3" blade rule, but lots of people are finishing up in court due to not having a good reason for carrying Leathermans and other multi tools, which breach the non-locking requirement.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Jonathan said:

    The early government response was confusing. It seemed driven by ideology more than science. Some weird contortion the British didn’t accept enforced rules. Restrictions were voluntary advice and ineffective if not actually counter productive.

    And this lockdown is fucking shit. The later it starts and sooner it’s over - the better.
    Yes it's very hard but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    Asking organizers to cancel large events, closing pubs, asking people to work from home where appropriate, quarantine requirements for people arriving from places with a lot of contagious people - none of these constitute a lockdown.

    A lockdown is what you're getting because less disruptive things weren't done when there was time, and the government's run out of runway.
    Benefit of hindsight still applies
    Who could have predicted etc etc.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    IanB2 said:

    Joe Biden has eased slightly overnight to 1.17 (1/6 in old money, or 85.5%) against being Dem nominee. It is remarkable that a man with an unassailable delegate lead is priced with a 16 per cent chance of falling by the wayside before the July convention. (Be aware of your commission rate on Betfair!)

    It shows what a poor candidate Biden is that punters (including yours truly) will not back a man who, if it were anyone else in any other circumstances, would be almost home and hosed.

    Or it assumes his catching the virus is inevitable, and is otherwise an accurate medical assessment of his chances.
    p.s. btw the convention is postponed to mid-August
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    TGOHF666 said:

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    Some people can not comprehend an event that doesn’t have binary blame for the bad outcome.
    The same people think it is the job of the government to insure them against any event.

    I see the right-wing headbangers are marching in force this morning. I shall gracefully retire therefore.

    Rant and rave all you like on here but you've lost this argument so you're wasting your energy. Even the tory press have called the Government to account.

    As I say, I'm currently broadly supportive of the Gov't but lying about their crass mistakes demeans the integrity of your posting both now and in the future.

    Have a good day everyone.

    xx
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    Asking organizers to cancel large events, closing pubs, asking people to work from home where appropriate, quarantine requirements for people arriving from places with a lot of contagious people - none of these constitute a lockdown.

    A lockdown is what you're getting because less disruptive things weren't done when there was time, and the government's run out of runway.
    Benefit of hindsight still applies
    Who could have predicted etc etc.
    J League and K League are still suspended - Japan and Korea are not back to normal.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    The early government response was confusing. It seemed driven by ideology more than science. Some weird contortion the British didn’t accept enforced rules. Restrictions were voluntary advice and ineffective if not actually counter productive.

    Good. Excellent. We’re not that sort of country.

    And this lockdown is fucking shit. The later it starts and sooner it’s over - the better.
    Silly. Early government policy actually created an incentive for people to go out. May hay whilst the sun shines.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    Asking organizers to cancel large events, closing pubs, asking people to work from home where appropriate, quarantine requirements for people arriving from places with a lot of contagious people - none of these constitute a lockdown.

    A lockdown is what you're getting because less disruptive things weren't done when there was time, and the government's run out of runway.
    Benefit of hindsight still applies
    “How could I tell?” is the constant lament of the palooka.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Socky said:


    We were issued Leathermans at work 15 to 20 years ago because the Swiss Army knives' blades did not lock open which raised the danger of cutting yourself.

    Carrying a knife with a locking blade is banned in the UK (yes, stupid law).
    Only when carried without good reason.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    I find it interesting that people are talking about cancelling Cheltenham on it's first day March 10th as something that would have made a difference. In reality it would have just moved the drinking to pubs around the area and possibly made things worse rather than better (packed indoor spaces, rather than outdoor spaces)

    In reality Cheltenham would have needed to be cancelled on or before the Thursday of the week before (March 5th) and that would definitely have been a far more awkward call.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014
    FPT - @Richard_Nabavi must be the only person on the planet who actually likes Opera!
  • SockySocky Posts: 404


    Who could have predicted etc etc.

    Big states have much in common with supertankers; rapid changes in direction are just not possible. That is not always a bad thing.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    With hindsight we should have elected a government with foresight.
    Brilliant!!!

    Although that doesn't mean Jeremy Corbyn. The other Jeremy, Hunt, would have been absolutely brilliant in this. He's the Prime Minister we needed in this crisis.
    Hunt was Health Secretary when previous crises were spun rather than tackled and Exercise Cygnus report was suppressed so while it might be true that as PM he'd have been less slapdash than Boris, I do not think Hunt is a likely successor.

    The whole style of government from at least New Labour onwards, that a problem is something to be spun rather than solved, is at fault.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287

    TGOHF666 said:

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    Some people can not comprehend an event that doesn’t have binary blame for the bad outcome.
    The same people think it is the job of the government to insure them against any event.

    I see the right-wing headbangers are marching in force this morning. I shall gracefully retire therefore.

    Rant and rave all you like on here but you've lost this argument so you're wasting your energy. Even the tory press have called the Government to account.

    As I say, I'm currently broadly supportive of the Gov't but lying about their crass mistakes demeans the integrity of your posting both now and in the future.

    Have a good day everyone.

    xx
    Did you say anything when corbyn was lying thro his back teeth about antisemitism and frien6ship with terrorist groups.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,061
    CD13 said:

    There's one thing I'm curious about with respect to COVID - 19 testing. Once the laboratory receives the sample, the QC procedures will be well-known, but how simple is the sampling procedure?

    Tickling the buccal cavity seems a little hit and miss. This is ignorance speaking as I've no idea. Are there any figures on the rate of false negatives? The result can only be as good as the sampling procedure after all.

    You usually know when you have blood for the antibody procedure so this shouldn't be a problem.

    Yes, I think the PCR testing is reasonably reliable, the 30% false negative rate mostly comes from inadequate swabbing.

    In China, they were doing brochoscopy with washings on CT suspects when nasopharangeal swabs were negative, but we don't seem to do that here.

    The big spike in Chinese cases came when they used CT Thorax scans to make a presumptive diagnosis, rather than virology, but those were taken out of the figures.

    Looking for raised CRP, D dimers and FBC changes are all current blood tests with strong predictive ability for severity of disease, but only done on inpatients at present.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014
    FPT - I’m going to enjoy drinking as much as I can (consistent with being functional during the day and getting a decent sleep) during this crisis. I’ve ordered in some great wines and champagnes.

    The hair shirt brigade / busybodies seem mainly interested in policing people who leave the house, policing that they properly clap according to approved doctrine on the doorsteps of their houses, and trying to shame them as to what they do inside their houses.

    They can fuck off.
  • SockySocky Posts: 404
    Gadfly said:


    Carrying a knife with a locking blade is banned in the UK (yes, stupid law).

    Only when carried without good reason.

    I carry a (legal) penknife all the time. How can I argue good reason?

    I may start carrying an Easter egg, just to get the rozzers really annoyed...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926

    US covid19 stimulus payments going out, if printing money and giving it directly to the voters turns out to be as popular as it sounds we could see a lot more of it in the future...

    https://twitter.com/alphatrends/status/1245877018446548993

    A tongue in cheek tweet judging by the payments shown.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    edited April 2020
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzqcRwWVv8k

    One Man, Two Governors.

    Enjoy
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The early government response was confusing. It seemed driven by ideology more than science. Some weird contortion the British didn’t accept enforced rules. Restrictions were voluntary advice and ineffective if not actually counter productive.

    Good. Excellent. We’re not that sort of country.

    And this lockdown is fucking shit. The later it starts and sooner it’s over - the better.
    Silly. Early government policy actually created an incentive for people to go out. May hay whilst the sun shines.
    No, the Government were progressively increasing restrictions as the crisis developed and evidence changed. They were doing it on the basis of absolute necessity only.

    Entirely correct.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,763
    And was Cheltenham responsible for Italy, Spain, Belgium, France too? Don't get me wrong, it was a ridiculous mistake and I said so at the time but the fact is that this virus has managed to spread every bit as fast, indeed a bit faster in some cases, in all these other countries without the nonsense of Cheltenham. The idea that it would have spread less in this country without it is, at best, inconsistent with the comparable evidence.

    I do agree that far more than the incidental detail of Brexit the handling of the CV is going to define Boris's premiership. For me the question will be whether Rishi Sunak's bold and innovative plans work and/or bankrupt the country. We are facing a situation where despite these efforts hundreds of thousands of small businesses are going to be insolvent creating significant unemployment in this country for the first time in years and potentially wiping out a generation of entrepreneurs. Mitigating that and the speed of any bounce back will for me determine the success or failure of the Boris years. It makes the job Osborne inherited in 2010 look like a walk in the park.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    The consequences of holding Cheltenham were actually simple enough to predict, as was not stopping flights from Italy in particular.
    I advocated for both to be stopped here and am no genius.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014

    TGOHF666 said:

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    Some people can not comprehend an event that doesn’t have binary blame for the bad outcome.
    The same people think it is the job of the government to insure them against any event.

    I see the right-wing headbangers are marching in force this morning. I shall gracefully retire therefore.

    Rant and rave all you like on here but you've lost this argument so you're wasting your energy. Even the tory press have called the Government to account.

    As I say, I'm currently broadly supportive of the Gov't but lying about their crass mistakes demeans the integrity of your posting both now and in the future.

    Have a good day everyone.

    xx
    Yes, it’s those who throw a strop and quit the ring who’ve clearly won the argument.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009

    Jonathan said:

    The early government response was confusing. It seemed driven by ideology more than science. Some weird contortion the British didn’t accept enforced rules. Restrictions were voluntary advice and ineffective if not actually counter productive.

    Good. Excellent. We’re not that sort of country.

    And this lockdown is fucking shit. The later it starts and sooner it’s over - the better.
    I think the answer to this problem is government-funded Summer Camps for all the people so eager to get and spread the virus and create herd immunity.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    edited April 2020
    tlg86 said:

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    Asking organizers to cancel large events, closing pubs, asking people to work from home where appropriate, quarantine requirements for people arriving from places with a lot of contagious people - none of these constitute a lockdown.

    A lockdown is what you're getting because less disruptive things weren't done when there was time, and the government's run out of runway.
    Benefit of hindsight still applies
    Who could have predicted etc etc.
    J League and K League are still suspended - Japan and Korea are not back to normal.
    Of course they're not back to normal, that's the whole point. You can't do normal, there's a raging novel killer virus on the loose. You probably can't do normal until there's a vaccine, maybe not even then.

    What you need to do is find out what changes you can make that are enough to contain it but with the least possible disruption. This isn't easy - there's a two-week lag between action and results, and that's long enough for the virus to get a lot of growth if you make the wrong moves in the "normality" direction (which Japan did, after initially stabilizing it by acting early).

    Doing what the British did and doing next-to-nothing then going into a full lockdown doesn't avoid this, because sooner or later you're going to have to end the lockdown, and if you go back to normal it's just going to come back again and the whole cycle will repeat.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited April 2020
    felix said:

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    Indeed - in Spain it was the women's March in Madrid. Incidentally, watching France 24 and Euronews dominated by stories of PPE shortages, selfish behaviour by France, USA, test shortages, Care Home problems, ventilator shortages, over-zealous enforcement of the rules, not enough enforcement of the rules, health systems breaking down all over Europe. No mention of the UK of course. What it tells you is that there is nothing that special about the problems in the UK. Our police are much the same as the rest our PPE issues much the same, worries about ICU.. all pretty much the same. Helps give some perspective which will no doubt be ignored on here and by the UK press.
    Some well needed perspective. If you believed sections of the British press all European politicians are doing is clapping themselves in the back for the excellence of their response and spending the rest of their time commenting with horror on the situation in the U.K./U.K. response.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    Asking organizers to cancel large events, closing pubs, asking people to work from home where appropriate, quarantine requirements for people arriving from places with a lot of contagious people - none of these constitute a lockdown.

    A lockdown is what you're getting because less disruptive things weren't done when there was time, and the government's run out of runway.
    I know what a lockdown is. So your first paragraph is unnecessary. It started at 8.30pm on Monday 23rd March.

    What would you have suggested instead and when?

    As far as I can tell you’ve been arguing for a lockdown (vociferously) since day one.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    eek said:

    I find it interesting that people are talking about cancelling Cheltenham on it's first day March 10th as something that would have made a difference. In reality it would have just moved the drinking to pubs around the area and possibly made things worse rather than better (packed indoor spaces, rather than outdoor spaces)

    In reality Cheltenham would have needed to be cancelled on or before the Thursday of the week before (March 5th) and that would definitely have been a far more awkward call.

    Another thing they needed to do was to close the pubs...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,061

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    Asking organizers to cancel large events, closing pubs, asking people to work from home where appropriate, quarantine requirements for people arriving from places with a lot of contagious people - none of these constitute a lockdown.

    A lockdown is what you're getting because less disruptive things weren't done when there was time, and the government's run out of runway.
    Benefit of hindsight still applies
    A fair number of people were saying it at the time! The Italian lockdown started on March 9th, 2 days before the clip I posted with the PM.

    Still, the government did admit that it got it wrong initially, even before PM, CMO and Health Secretary all came down with it.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    edited April 2020
    Socky said:

    Gadfly said:


    Carrying a knife with a locking blade is banned in the UK (yes, stupid law).

    Only when carried without good reason.

    I carry a (legal) penknife all the time. How can I argue good reason?

    I may start carrying an Easter egg, just to get the rozzers really annoyed...
    You don't need to have good reason to carry a legal penknife (folding blade with a cutting edge 3 inches long or less).

    https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014
    edited April 2020
    Chris said:

    Jonathan said:

    The early government response was confusing. It seemed driven by ideology more than science. Some weird contortion the British didn’t accept enforced rules. Restrictions were voluntary advice and ineffective if not actually counter productive.

    Good. Excellent. We’re not that sort of country.

    And this lockdown is fucking shit. The later it starts and sooner it’s over - the better.
    I think the answer to this problem is government-funded Summer Camps for all the people so eager to get and spread the virus and create herd immunity.
    The Government certainly need an exit strategy (very soon) for less vulnerable people.

    There will always be risk though. Even if one or two younger people die after it (purely by statistical fluke) whilst millions are fine headlines galore will ensue so the Government needs to be careful about managing that message on reasonable risk.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    US covid19 stimulus payments going out, if printing money and giving it directly to the voters turns out to be as popular as it sounds we could see a lot more of it in the future...

    https://twitter.com/alphatrends/status/1245877018446548993

    A tongue in cheek tweet judging by the payments shown.
    Now that's what I call a stimulus package! :hushed:
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited April 2020

    Totally agree with Mike.

    I have several Conservative friends who think the Govt's handling of this has been 'shambolic' and that Johnson is 'unfit' to lead such a crisis. They are surprised that I've been more pro.

    The decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was frankly unbelievable.

    I’m very grateful that Boris saw a lockdown as a last resort, and only went there when he had to do so.

    Entirely right, in my view.
    Asking organizers to cancel large events, closing pubs, asking people to work from home where appropriate, quarantine requirements for people arriving from places with a lot of contagious people - none of these constitute a lockdown.

    A lockdown is what you're getting because less disruptive things weren't done when there was time, and the government's run out of runway.
    I know what a lockdown is. So your first paragraph is unnecessary. It started at 8.30pm on Monday 23rd March.

    What would you have suggested instead and when?

    As far as I can tell you’ve been arguing for a lockdown (vociferously) since day one.
    To be fair EiT hasn’t.

    Although he has from day one been accusing the U.K. govt (and other western Govt’s, when pushed) of failing to follow approaches of Asian Govt’s. Although given that Korean/Japanese/ Chinese approaches seem to have been vastly different, whether on lockdowns or testing it wasn’t exactly easy to pick a consistent example to follow!
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    TGOHF666 said:

    The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    Some people can not comprehend an event that doesn’t have binary blame for the bad outcome.
    The same people think it is the job of the government to insure them against any event.

    I see the right-wing headbangers are marching in force this morning. I shall gracefully retire therefore.

    Rant and rave all you like on here but you've lost this argument so you're wasting your energy. Even the tory press have called the Government to account.

    As I say, I'm currently broadly supportive of the Gov't but lying about their crass mistakes demeans the integrity of your posting both now and in the future.

    Have a good day everyone.

    xx
    Yes, it’s those who throw a strop and quit the ring who’ve clearly won the argument.
    It's known as 'doing a Corbyn': winning an argument so hard you have to retire into obscurity... :wink:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited April 2020

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The early government response was confusing. It seemed driven by ideology more than science. Some weird contortion the British didn’t accept enforced rules. Restrictions were voluntary advice and ineffective if not actually counter productive.

    Good. Excellent. We’re not that sort of country.

    And this lockdown is fucking shit. The later it starts and sooner it’s over - the better.
    Silly. Early government policy actually created an incentive for people to go out. May hay whilst the sun shines.
    No, the Government were progressively increasing restrictions as the crisis developed and evidence changed. They were doing it on the basis of absolute necessity only.

    Entirely correct.
    "the crisis developed and evidence changed. "

    It was known that the virus doubles its hosts approximately every 2.5 days left uncontrolled, takes approx 7 days to manifest symptons and then perhaps another 13 to die. You're always behind the 8 ball on this one, so you need to make decisions as if you're 20 to 25 days in the future with approx 3000 times more cases than you have at the moment.
    One thing I'll give the Gov't credit for is the lockdown has seemed fair and sensible though I worry it's a bit of a white collar lockdown with infection amongst warehouse staff etc continuing at a greater rate. Since R in any subgroup is exponential you need to have as much locked off as possible.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,061

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The early government response was confusing. It seemed driven by ideology more than science. Some weird contortion the British didn’t accept enforced rules. Restrictions were voluntary advice and ineffective if not actually counter productive.

    Good. Excellent. We’re not that sort of country.

    And this lockdown is fucking shit. The later it starts and sooner it’s over - the better.
    Silly. Early government policy actually created an incentive for people to go out. May hay whilst the sun shines.
    No, the Government were progressively increasing restrictions as the crisis developed and evidence changed. They were doing it on the basis of absolute necessity only.

    Entirely correct.
    We have always been at war with Eastasia...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    The government was slow to spot the danger, slow to warm up the public to the danger and slow to take the necessary measures to lock down. It has been slow at procurement and slow to put into place the financial measures required.

    On all fronts it eventually did the right thing. The cost of this government’s lethargy has yet to be calculated.

    The UK government’s handling of the crisis - health-wise and economic - has been mainstream European. What’s happened here is pretty much what’s happened across the continent. It’s fascinating to see all the criticisms here are exactly the ones being levelled at other governments. Everyone was too complacent for too long, everyone has taken stringent action subsequently, everyone is discovering that decisions previously taken are becoming millstones, everyone is thanking God that Donald Trump is not in charge.

This discussion has been closed.