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  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649

    DavidL said:

    I may be wrong but I think Russia has had more than 10k new cases every day this week. Deaths are still quite low but the infection rate seems much worse than when we had those pictures of the queueing ambulances 3-4 weeks ago.

    The Baltic states seem to have missed the full effects of the virus but Russia seems to be having a very bad attack.
    I wouldn't be too confident about their death figures (nor Belarus, whose need to suppress them is large). I don't suppose they issue figures of whistleblowers mysteriously falling out of windows?
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    44% working from home v 12% last year

    I believe you, but where is that form, do you have a link?
  • Ave_it said:

    So despite all.the filthy comments on here about Boris and the Govt... voting intention is unchanged. Its as well to remember that such comments are not the views of the majority.. not even all Labour voters...

    The loony left (remember them) are always the most vocal! Most people know Boris and his team are doing their best...
    The government can for now maintain one of the greatest and cruelest deceptions ever perpetrated by any UK government on the people of Britain - that lockdown is a consequence free policy.

    That we have time and money to go on and on until the virus is 'beaten' (whatever beaten looks like).

    Headlines like a 14% contraction in the UK economy, greatest recession in 300 years are meaningless to the millions on furlough who think they are going to walk back into jobs. Or those in the public sector that think they can never be culled

    Economic meltdown? dramatic fall in living standards?

    yeh whatever

    The fact is that many of these people are long term redundant, they just don;t know it yet.

    When Rishi turns off the taps, as he must one day, well...

    What was the viable alternative?
    If that's going to be the position of Boris and his shills when the sh8t hits the fan, well, I reckon he might not last the year.
    I'm not a Boris shill I'm a realist. The entire western world is facing an economic crash. I don't see a solitary exception. If you are oh so wise and think we could have done without furloughing which even the Swedes have done then please say how oh wise one.
    It occurred to me the other day that if we'd had the COVID out break, say 50 years ago, there would have been no prospect of a lockdown anywhere, because far fewer in the West's population would have made it to the age where you stand a reasonable chance of dying from it, or even suffering that much from it.

    We'd have just gone on as normal.

    On that basis, there surely has to have been a far better response than the one our government has given. Or any Western government has given, for that matter.

    People may believe your argument that what will follow was inevitable, or they may take the view that the blow could have been softened.

    But I reckon that when summer turns to autumn and there are millions on the dole in our country, everybody's going to be looking for someone to blame.

    And I dont think they will accept the view it was the virus wot dunnit

    I'm not disputing that people can be wrong. I'm disputing what is real. What real alternative is there?

    People quite rightly were afraid - and not just of getting sick themselves but being responsible for killing their parents or grandparents. With or without a lockdown the economy would grind to a halt.
    The old saying goes that 'life is for the living'.

    It strikes me that the Western response to COVID, given the disease's profile, has turned that saying its head.

    Given the enormous price the young of this and future generations will pay for west's policy response, its perfectly possible to argue that life is now for the dying.

    and that will have enormous implications for old and young. If the young are stopped from thriving and driving forward the engines of commerce and wealth, then I fear the collapse will be very great.

    But, we shall see. I hope you're right and we bounce back quickly. But I greatly, greatly fear for the future.

    Much better to fear for the future than not have one
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,451

    DavidL said:

    I may be wrong but I think Russia has had more than 10k new cases every day this week. Deaths are still quite low but the infection rate seems much worse than when we had those pictures of the queueing ambulances 3-4 weeks ago.

    The Baltic states seem to have missed the full effects of the virus but Russia seems to be having a very bad attack.
    Purely coincidence that the Baltic states locked down early, presumably?
    1 - They are one of the least densely populated countries in Europe.
    2 - Not many people travel there.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sounds smart. I think some papers were projecting what they want.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849

    R - 05 - 09

    Needs to be < 0.5 for the big unlock.

    Just garden centres for now, I'm thinking.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The Mail has been coming out all guns blazing in the run-up to VE Day:

    https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1258345696618561538?s=21

    Two world wars and one World Cup and one Coronavirus.

    But I’m sure the pb commentariat will be along shortly to explain why this constant harking back for stolen valour is helpful in 2020.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    Scott_xP said:
    And we'll tell the House of Commons a day later.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    BigRich said:

    44% working from home v 12% last year

    I believe you, but where is that form, do you have a link?
    It was quoted in todays press conference currently continuing
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    kinabalu said:

    R - 05 - 09

    Needs to be < 0.5 for the big unlock.

    Just garden centres for now, I'm thinking.
    Was higher than that in Germany.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited May 2020
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    But in early 2019 Labour was ahead!
    Yes, people do not give Johnson enough credit. The ghastly guy pulled off an utter triumph, electorally, and he has genuine appeal to lots of people. I think it's because the host of this site, plus many of the more prolific and influential participants, have a very dim view of both him AND Corbyn - thus the preferred narrative is that Johnson is crap but won a landslide because Corbyn was twice as crap. This doesn't ring true to me. It was many things, clearly, but what it mainly was was "Boris" and his all conquering message, Get Brexit Done, which played well to both Leavers and the large number of Remainers who nevertheless were sick and tired of "it" and wanted "it" done.
    Boris's greatest strength as a politician is the dogged determination that his opponents apply to underestimating him.
    Indeed. Those opponents have a bizarre, almost inexplicable superiority complex when it comes to Boris, and therefore being so comprehensively defeated by him has caused a logic error in their brains. As if being beaten by an Eton & Balliol man were somehow beneath them...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    BigRich said:

    44% working from home v 12% last year

    I believe you, but where is that form, do you have a link?
    Note that the stat is that 44% of people have done SOME work from home.

    Very different to them doing a full-time job from home.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Scott_xP said:
    She really shouldn't believe everything she reads in the papers......
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    MikeL said:

    BigRich said:

    44% working from home v 12% last year

    I believe you, but where is that form, do you have a link?
    Note that the stat is that 44% of people have done SOME work from home.

    Very different to them doing a full-time job from home.
    Yes fair point
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849

    86k tests...BJO incoming...

    I'll do it. It is now undeniable that the 100k was a fiddle. Sad.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    But in early 2019 Labour was ahead!
    Yes, people do not give Johnson enough credit. The ghastly guy pulled off an utter triumph, electorally, and he has genuine appeal to lots of people. I think it's because the host of this site, plus many of the more prolific and influential participants, have a very dim view of both him AND Corbyn - thus the preferred narrative is that Johnson is crap but won a landslide because Corbyn was twice as crap. This doesn't ring true to me. It was many things, clearly, but what it mainly was was "Boris" and his all conquering message, Get Brexit Done, which played well to both Leavers and the large number of Remainers who nevertheless were sick and tired of "it" and wanted "it" done.
    Boris's greatest strength as a politician is the dogged determination that his opponents apply to underestimating him.
    Indeed. Those opponents have a bizarre, almost inexplicable superiority complex when it comes to Boris, and therefore being so comprehensively defeated by him has caused a logic error in their brains. As if being beaten by an Eton & Balliol man were somehow beneath them...
    It’s the country that is being defeated. Conservatives on here are chortling that their man is getting away with tens of thousands of avoidable deaths and rank incompetence.

    If they actually cared about the country, as opposed to indulging their tribal loyalty, they’d be incandescent with rage at how this government has let the country down. But partisanship is more important I guess.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,722
    DavidL said:

    I may be wrong but I think Russia has had more than 10k new cases every day this week. Deaths are still quite low but the infection rate seems much worse than when we had those pictures of the queueing ambulances 3-4 weeks ago.

    They are going to be worst in Europe.

    Especially if they report accurate Mortality figures accurately

    A big if i expect
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441

    Scott_xP said:
    She really shouldn't believe everything she reads in the papers......
    To be fair, if you listened to the FM and to Dominic Raab this evening, there really isn't that much of a gap in what they are saying...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Elon Musk and singer Grimes have confirmed they have named their baby X Æ A-12.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52557291
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    When you think someone hasn't a reputation to lose and yet they can still surprise you.

    https://twitter.com/Lord_Sugar/status/1258415382412627972?s=20
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001

    Scott_xP said:
    She really shouldn't believe everything she reads in the papers......
    To be honest throughout this crisis, and on here, too many believe that which is written in the papers
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Elon Musk and singer Grimes have confirmed they have named their baby X Æ A-12.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52557291

    Yeah, that's gonna go down well at school.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    kinabalu said:

    R - 05 - 09

    Needs to be < 0.5 for the big unlock.

    Just garden centres for now, I'm thinking.
    If that is Boris' best offer after the papers have ramped up expectations today after his teaser yesterday he is in big trouble.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited May 2020
    France's PM announces most of France will ease off lockdown from Monday but with lockdown restrictions still remaining in Paris and the North East.

    Primary schools will start to reopen from Monday and secondary schools from the 18th May and big shopping centres over 40 000 square metres can reopen with approval from regional authorities. People can also freely travel up to 100km from their home with permits needed for travel beyond that for family or professional reasons.

    Masks must be worn on public transport though with fines for those without

    https://www.thelocal.fr/20200507/frances-pm-announces-final-details-ahead-of-may-11th-lockdown-lifting?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,722

    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    So despite all.the filthy comments on here about Boris and the Govt... voting intention is unchanged. Its as well to remember that such comments are not the views of the majority.. not even all Labour voters...

    The loony left (remember them) are always the most vocal! Most people know Boris and his team are doing their best...
    I'll accept that. It's just that their best..........
    But can you imagine if it had been Corbyn, Abbott and people like that running it?!

    :anguished:
    If you recall the coup attempt of last September, the elected by a massive majority deputy leader was to be stripped of powers which were to be handed to the NEC. So lets assume that Labour won the 2019 election and Corbyn like Johnson contracted the virus doing one of his LOOK AT ME cretin clapping shows in the street. Corbyn is in ICU, leaving a designated stand-in (Pidcock) as the spokesperson for an NEC committee made up of Corbyn apparatchiks.

    Its hard to consider a worst bunch of people than the cabinet to be (badly) running the country during this pandemic. Then you remember the alternative on offer last December. Which is why the answer to the GE question was "neither".
    We will file that under Rochdale making further excuses for joining the Swinson Shit show to Campaign against Labour and then claim others dont want to win GEs
    Corbyn didn't deserve to win an election or Rochdale's vote. Rochdale deserves respect for refusing to vote for that vile racist just as I chose not to vote for Theresa "Go Home" May.
    No he doesnt deserve respect and Corbyn wasnt a vile racist either.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    ONS guy saying "maintaining social distancing over the next few weeks" will be critical to control of virus.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748

    The Mail has been coming out all guns blazing in the run-up to VE Day:

    https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1258345696618561538?s=21

    Two world wars and one World Cup and one Coronavirus.

    But I’m sure the pb commentariat will be along shortly to explain why this constant harking back for stolen valour is helpful in 2020.

    Fu
    ck
    in
    gh
    ell
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    Boris likes to be popular. He didn't want to lockdown. The public and the polls told him to.
    There won't be any other than a cosmetic loosening. Because the polls don't support it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748

    Scott_xP said:
    She really shouldn't believe everything she reads in the papers......
    To be honest throughout this crisis, and on here, too many believe that which is written in the papers
    Still, the Times on Twitter, gold standard, eh?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    Elon Musk and singer Grimes have confirmed they have named their baby X Æ A-12.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52557291

    Elon is a bit of an odd chap.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,735

    Elon Musk and singer Grimes have confirmed they have named their baby X Æ A-12.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52557291

    I think he put his password by mistake...
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653

    The Mail has been coming out all guns blazing in the run-up to VE Day:

    https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1258345696618561538?s=21

    Two world wars and one World Cup and one Coronavirus.

    But I’m sure the pb commentariat will be along shortly to explain why this constant harking back for stolen valour is helpful in 2020.

    Well, I`m with you Alastair. Agreed with your article on the subject. Turns my stomach too.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    edited May 2020
    BBC saying testing capacity is around 150,000 at present

    Not much more needed to grow the capacity to 200,000 by the end of the month
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    For economists & historians - fascinating e-book on the economics of WWII:

    https://voxeu.org/content/new-ebook-economics-second-world-war-seventy-five-years
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 5,997

    DavidL said:

    I may be wrong but I think Russia has had more than 10k new cases every day this week. Deaths are still quite low but the infection rate seems much worse than when we had those pictures of the queueing ambulances 3-4 weeks ago.

    They are going to be worst in Europe.

    And Asia

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Elon Musk and singer Grimes have confirmed they have named their baby X Æ A-12.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52557291

    Gossip columnists this morning were suggesting that the register office refused to do it, so they've actually got a more normal name on the birth certificate.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited May 2020
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    If your CLP or BLP is continuing to act in a highly factional manner, I suggest that you escalate matters via a complaint through the NW Regional Office. You might find that there's more support for tackling this than you imagine, and they do have some significant powers.

    That appreciated but I am assured that the CLP EC are welcoming me back. The last complaint against me (mistakenly calling Laura Pillock "Pidcock" on Facebook) was dismissed personally by the now departed Senior Regional Director. My BLP chair then raised a complaint that I had "brought the party into disrepute" when I posted a photo of my cut up membership card on Twitter. Which was dismissed as "under what rules do you want us to discipline someone who isn't a party member".

    Essentially if you are a cultist its perfectly ok to literally run against Labour one year and then join Labour the next, but if you are a True Blue Tory like I am its not ok to have what John Lennon described as his "lost weekend".

    I would be appalled if people such as Ian Austin and John Woodcock were readmitted to party membership. Both sent out literature in marginal seats exhorting Labour voters to vote Tory. Has Gisela Stuart been expelled yet?
    It's too early yet. But if they reapply after a decent interval, then I would have them back in. You have to accept that Labour cannot win without gaining the support of a very broad coalition, and we're a long way from that at this point.

    Whenever someone prominent who has supported another party applies to join yours, then the rule is that you admit them provided you believe their motives are genuine. It indicates that your party is capable of appealing beyond a narrow base, and that your opponents are not what they once were. If Ian Austin were backing the Labour candidate in Dudley North next time, then it would be totemic given what happened in 2019. On the other hand, if he reapplied and was thrown out, it would get a lot of coverage and people would conclude that Corbyn's lot were still pulling the strings of the front man.
    No - Ian Austin went to great lengths to damage Labour and was actively supporting the Tories. It gave me great pleasure to send him several messages via Twitter to the effect that he was following the wonderful example of Pierre Laval - by starting off on the Left then moving sharply to the Right.
    Wonder how many countries have had (serving or former) Prime Ministers shot by firing squad...

    I started mentally trying to compile a list, but I think the full one must be pretty long judging by the mere existence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Executed_prime_ministers (though quite a few of those aren't technically Prime Ministers, and not all were shot).

    It looks like Hungary holds the records for executed PMs. Even excluding István Tisza (assassinated by revolutionary soldiers during the Aster Revolution of 31 October 1918, but I won't count it as "execution" as there was no trial as such) and Béla Kun (shot by the NKVD in Moscow on 29 August 1938 during Stalin's Great Purge, but despite being dictator he'd technically done it from the position of Foreign Minister) they still racked up:

    1) Lajos Batthyány, executed by firing squad on 6 October 1849 (Hungary's first PM)
    2) László Bárdossy, executed by firing squad on 10 January 1946
    3) Béla Imrédy, executed by firing squad on 28 February 1946
    4) Ferenc Szálasi, executed by pole hanging (i.e. short drop) on 12 March 1946
    5) Döme Sztójay, executed by firing squad on 22 August 1946
    6) Imre Nagy, executed by hanging on 16 June 1958 (and buried face-down with his hands and feet tied with barbed wire, apparently Nikita Khrushchev was keen that he stayed dead!)

    And we joke about how dangerous being American president is... and wonder why Viktor Orbán doesn't like there being much opposition...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    But in early 2019 Labour was ahead!
    Yes, people do not give Johnson enough credit. The ghastly guy pulled off an utter triumph, electorally, and he has genuine appeal to lots of people. I think it's because the host of this site, plus many of the more prolific and influential participants, have a very dim view of both him AND Corbyn - thus the preferred narrative is that Johnson is crap but won a landslide because Corbyn was twice as crap. This doesn't ring true to me. It was many things, clearly, but what it mainly was was "Boris" and his all conquering message, Get Brexit Done, which played well to both Leavers and the large number of Remainers who nevertheless were sick and tired of "it" and wanted "it" done.
    Perversely enough, I actually believe that the ChangeUK group which split from Labour - and later the Tories - made a significant contribution to the Boris triumph. Firstly they undermined Corbyn - initially on his failure to back a second Referendum - and also cited the anti-Semitic issue. Secondly - and disastrously from their perspective - they failed to back Ken Clarke's Customs Union amendment when it came up last Spring. The LibDems did likewise - yet it only failed by three votes. Had they supported it, May might still be PM with no GE having taken place. The ex-Labour MPs who joined ChangeUK clearly decided that getting rid of Corbyn was more important than stopping No Deal Brexit.
    Yes. PM Corbyn was the price for stopping Brexit. They were not prepared to pay it.
    There were not the votes in Parliament to make Corbyn PM unless the DUP backed him even with LD and CUK support and had he tried to do so on a Customs Union for GB deal the DUP would still not have backed it as only keeping the whole UK in the EEA or No Deal was acceptable to them.

    May would have been toppled by Boris anyway had she backed such a deal as she was even with a temporary CU deal
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009
    kinabalu said:

    R - 05 - 09

    Needs to be < 0.5 for the big unlock.

    Just garden centres for now, I'm thinking.
    Well, there's no reason to think R will decrease further unless the restrictions are actually tightened.

    What's needed is for the number of active cases to drop so that we don't immediately end up back in the same boat if R rises again. The number of new cases per day now is well above the level when the lockdown was introduced, though of course much more testing is now being done.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,911

    Elon Musk and singer Grimes have confirmed they have named their baby X Æ A-12.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52557291

    Grimes got her aircraft mixed up! It's SR-71.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    So. Trialling of temperature checks and masks at airports something other countries have had for 2 months. Head of Manchester, Stansted and E Midlands Airports on R5L.

    Q: What if people refuse? Will they be refused boarding?
    A: Not at the moment no

    WTAF?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,451

    The Mail has been coming out all guns blazing in the run-up to VE Day:

    https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1258345696618561538?s=21

    Two world wars and one World Cup and one Coronavirus.

    But I’m sure the pb commentariat will be along shortly to explain why this constant harking back for stolen valour is helpful in 2020.

    The underlying article behind it seems to be this one:

    https://viraldiscourse.com/2020/04/13/is-the-war-rhetoric-around-covid-19-an-anglo-american-thing/

    Which is basically agreeing with your point, although from a rationalist point of war language is ineffective vs a virus rather than war language is morally wrong in the scenario.

    So it is the mail admitting that the UK press is using ineffective language?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729

    The Mail has been coming out all guns blazing in the run-up to VE Day:

    https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1258345696618561538?s=21

    Two world wars and one World Cup and one Coronavirus.

    But I’m sure the pb commentariat will be along shortly to explain why this constant harking back for stolen valour is helpful in 2020.

    Yes, there will be a lot more "Two World Wars and One World Cup" being sung tomorrow than if it were a advertised as a celebration of the war ending rather than a celebration of "victory". A point I tried to make last night without much success in persuading anyone!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    isam said:

    The Mail has been coming out all guns blazing in the run-up to VE Day:

    https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1258345696618561538?s=21

    Two world wars and one World Cup and one Coronavirus.

    But I’m sure the pb commentariat will be along shortly to explain why this constant harking back for stolen valour is helpful in 2020.

    Yes, there will be a lot more "Two World Wars and One World Cup" being sung tomorrow than if it were a advertised as a celebration of the war ending rather than a celebration of "victory". A point I tried to make last night without much success in persuading anyone!
    You didn't really need to persuade me as I agreed with you.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,085

    kinabalu said:

    R - 05 - 09

    Needs to be < 0.5 for the big unlock.

    Just garden centres for now, I'm thinking.
    If that is Boris' best offer after the papers have ramped up expectations today after his teaser yesterday he is in big trouble.
    Someone who counts as an "Informed Government Source" pretty clearly went to town with briefing sympathetic papers with what BoJo was going to announce, and now they are going to look a bit silly.

    I don't think that sympathetic papers are going to be happy about that.

    Wonder who it was?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,451
    dixiedean said:

    So. Trialling of temperature checks and masks at airports something other countries have had for 2 months. Head of Manchester, Stansted and E Midlands Airports on R5L.

    Q: What if people refuse? Will they be refused boarding?
    A: Not at the moment no

    WTAF?

    Its a trial, not a mandatory policy.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Something of an ongoing diplomatic spat between EU and China:
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1258107919058505729
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    edited May 2020

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    But in early 2019 Labour was ahead!
    Yes, people do not give Johnson enough credit. The ghastly guy pulled off an utter triumph, electorally, and he has genuine appeal to lots of people. I think it's because the host of this site, plus many of the more prolific and influential participants, have a very dim view of both him AND Corbyn - thus the preferred narrative is that Johnson is crap but won a landslide because Corbyn was twice as crap. This doesn't ring true to me. It was many things, clearly, but what it mainly was was "Boris" and his all conquering message, Get Brexit Done, which played well to both Leavers and the large number of Remainers who nevertheless were sick and tired of "it" and wanted "it" done.
    Boris's greatest strength as a politician is the dogged determination that his opponents apply to underestimating him.
    Indeed. Those opponents have a bizarre, almost inexplicable superiority complex when it comes to Boris, and therefore being so comprehensively defeated by him has caused a logic error in their brains. As if being beaten by an Eton & Balliol man were somehow beneath them...
    It’s the country that is being defeated. Conservatives on here are chortling that their man is getting away with tens of thousands of avoidable deaths and rank incompetence.

    If they actually cared about the country, as opposed to indulging their tribal loyalty, they’d be incandescent with rage at how this government has let the country down. But partisanship is more important I guess.
    The anti Borisers are as bad. Had the UK been lucky enough to get away with relatively few deaths from Covid-19, they would have given him no credit whatsoever. We saw that with my posting of the Italy vs UK death chart - they only piped up when they could criticise, when the UK was running at 60% of Italy there was silence. It was so predictable that even I predicted it.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    Brexit has turned some people into right bellends.

    https://twitter.com/aroberts_andrew/status/1258440785302892546
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729

    isam said:

    The Mail has been coming out all guns blazing in the run-up to VE Day:

    https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1258345696618561538?s=21

    Two world wars and one World Cup and one Coronavirus.

    But I’m sure the pb commentariat will be along shortly to explain why this constant harking back for stolen valour is helpful in 2020.

    Yes, there will be a lot more "Two World Wars and One World Cup" being sung tomorrow than if it were a advertised as a celebration of the war ending rather than a celebration of "victory". A point I tried to make last night without much success in persuading anyone!
    You didn't really need to persuade me as I agreed with you.
    True true
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    @MikeSmithson @TheScreamingEagles

    How many "Dont Knows" in a poll are enough to make the results dodgy?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    Ah the heady days of the YouGov MRP and Survation being outliers.

    Kaboom indeed.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729

    Brexit has turned some people into right bellends.

    https://twitter.com/aroberts_andrew/status/1258440785302892546

    What rot, it hasn't even invaded Poland!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748

    Brexit has turned some people into right bellends.

    https://twitter.com/aroberts_andrew/status/1258440785302892546

    *confirmed that some people are
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957

    Brexit has turned some people into right bellends.

    https://twitter.com/aroberts_andrew/status/1258440785302892546

    *confirmed that some people are
    Well I try to find the good in people.

    Obviously except those that put you know what on pizzas.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    isam said:

    @MikeSmithson @TheScreamingEagles

    How many "Dont Knows" in a poll are enough to make the results dodgy?

    Depends on the sample size and the questions.

    You'd expect higher levels of DKs/Wouldn't Says on the supplementaries as some people don't have opinions on all subjects/have no knowledge on the question.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Brexit has turned some people into right bellends.

    https://twitter.com/aroberts_andrew/status/1258440785302892546

    *confirmed that some people are
    Well I try to find the good in people.

    Obviously except those that put you know what on pizzas.
    I feel the time has come for pineapple pizza pride parades.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    isam said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    But in early 2019 Labour was ahead!
    Yes, people do not give Johnson enough credit. The ghastly guy pulled off an utter triumph, electorally, and he has genuine appeal to lots of people. I think it's because the host of this site, plus many of the more prolific and influential participants, have a very dim view of both him AND Corbyn - thus the preferred narrative is that Johnson is crap but won a landslide because Corbyn was twice as crap. This doesn't ring true to me. It was many things, clearly, but what it mainly was was "Boris" and his all conquering message, Get Brexit Done, which played well to both Leavers and the large number of Remainers who nevertheless were sick and tired of "it" and wanted "it" done.
    Boris's greatest strength as a politician is the dogged determination that his opponents apply to underestimating him.
    Indeed. Those opponents have a bizarre, almost inexplicable superiority complex when it comes to Boris, and therefore being so comprehensively defeated by him has caused a logic error in their brains. As if being beaten by an Eton & Balliol man were somehow beneath them...
    It’s the country that is being defeated. Conservatives on here are chortling that their man is getting away with tens of thousands of avoidable deaths and rank incompetence.

    If they actually cared about the country, as opposed to indulging their tribal loyalty, they’d be incandescent with rage at how this government has let the country down. But partisanship is more important I guess.
    The anti Borisers are as bad. Had the UK been lucky enough to get away with relatively few deaths from Covid-19, they would have given him no credit whatsoever. We saw that with my posting of the Italy vs UK death chart - they only piped up when they could criticise, when the UK was running at 60% of Italy there was silence. It was so predictable that even I predicted it.

    "Oh yeah? Well you're just lucky that you happen to be right!"

    Quite a novel debate tactic.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673
    She is not a nodding donkey like Boris, we already know SAGE are stooges led and told what to do by Boris's rottwieler. She will not be led by the nose.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    86k tests...BJO incoming...

    I'll do it. It is now undeniable that the 100k was a fiddle. Sad.
    Of course it's deniable. There was latent demand that was satisfied in a peak and since then demand dropped off. Last week if you went to the website to book a test you could be told they were fully booked. Now there is still availability.

    Plus if it was a fiddle they'd just continue to fiddle it. Very lame half hearted fiddle otherwise.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729

    isam said:

    @MikeSmithson @TheScreamingEagles

    How many "Dont Knows" in a poll are enough to make the results dodgy?

    Depends on the sample size and the questions.

    You'd expect higher levels of DKs/Wouldn't Says on the supplementaries as some people don't have opinions on all subjects/have no knowledge on the question.
    Current leadership ratings for Starmer

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership_approval_opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849
    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    R - 05 - 09

    Needs to be < 0.5 for the big unlock.

    Just garden centres for now, I'm thinking.
    Was higher than that in Germany.
    Yes but I think we will be more cautious. I say the Sun is wrong - no serious change coming until 28th May.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849

    Brexit has turned some people into right bellends.

    https://twitter.com/aroberts_andrew/status/1258440785302892546

    Oh dear.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    kinabalu said:

    86k tests...BJO incoming...

    I'll do it. It is now undeniable that the 100k was a fiddle. Sad.
    Of course it's deniable. There was latent demand that was satisfied in a peak and since then demand dropped off. Last week if you went to the website to book a test you could be told they were fully booked. Now there is still availability.

    Plus if it was a fiddle they'd just continue to fiddle it. Very lame half hearted fiddle otherwise.
    Last paragraph. Matt confirmed 100,000 per day by the end of the month (April). He made no reference to this month so he doesn't need to fiddle anything in May
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673
    What were you wittering on about earlier re "following the science", lot of egg on face now.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274
    edited May 2020
    malcolmg said:

    She is not a nodding donkey like Boris, we already know SAGE are stooges led and told what to do by Boris's rottwieler. She will not be led by the nose.
    Er... but that's her own scientific advisory group, not SAGE. Or has she selected her own bunch of Boris stooges?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849
    isam said:

    The Mail has been coming out all guns blazing in the run-up to VE Day:

    https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1258345696618561538?s=21

    Two world wars and one World Cup and one Coronavirus.

    But I’m sure the pb commentariat will be along shortly to explain why this constant harking back for stolen valour is helpful in 2020.

    Yes, there will be a lot more "Two World Wars and One World Cup" being sung tomorrow than if it were a advertised as a celebration of the war ending rather than a celebration of "victory". A point I tried to make last night without much success in persuading anyone!
    Not by you, I hope. Waters would NOT approve.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    So despite all.the filthy comments on here about Boris and the Govt... voting intention is unchanged. Its as well to remember that such comments are not the views of the majority.. not even all Labour voters...

    The loony left (remember them) are always the most vocal! Most people know Boris and his team are doing their best...
    I'll accept that. It's just that their best..........
    But can you imagine if it had been Corbyn, Abbott and people like that running it?!

    :anguished:
    If you recall the coup attempt of last September, the elected by a massive majority deputy leader was to be stripped of powers which were to be handed to the NEC. So lets assume that Labour won the 2019 election and Corbyn like Johnson contracted the virus doing one of his LOOK AT ME cretin clapping shows in the street. Corbyn is in ICU, leaving a designated stand-in (Pidcock) as the spokesperson for an NEC committee made up of Corbyn apparatchiks.

    Its hard to consider a worst bunch of people than the cabinet to be (badly) running the country during this pandemic. Then you remember the alternative on offer last December. Which is why the answer to the GE question was "neither".
    We will file that under Rochdale making further excuses for joining the Swinson Shit show to Campaign against Labour and then claim others dont want to win GEs
    Corbyn didn't deserve to win an election or Rochdale's vote. Rochdale deserves respect for refusing to vote for that vile racist just as I chose not to vote for Theresa "Go Home" May.
    No he doesnt deserve respect and Corbyn wasnt a vile racist either.
    That you still want to excuse his anti-Semitism even now makes me wonder what you have against Jews. There's no partisan need to defend him anymore.

    When the party I normally support elected a racist in Theresa 'Go Home' May I called it out. It's a shame you aren't prepared to do the same thing for Jeremy 'For The Many Not The Jew' Corbyn.

    Rochdale and I put standing up to racism above partisan politics. You put partisan politics above racism. For shame.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673

    The cynic tells me that SNP Govt looking for something different they can do that won't backfire. Previous stunts on business support and local govt finance have not gone well. I think lockdown could have worked but looks like Boris has done a reverse ferret and closed it down.
    I thought you lived in Scotland. Do you only look at London news, how anyone in Scotland can come out with bollox like that is beyond me. Perhaps you are Mundell or Caracrash in disguise.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673
    Scott_xP said:
    Good News, Boris is the best advert for Independence anyone could wish for.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    DavidL said:

    sure, they can pay for it. They have their own separate tax system now.
    Bluntly every day the lockdown/furlough system remains in place more businesses will never open again and more jobs will be lost. It is an inevitable consequence of fixed costs and minimal income. Scotland's economy is in a parlous state already, not supporting the public sector that we think that we are entitled to. More damage to make some political point is just unacceptable.
    Boris has been stung by criticism of his initial laid-back response because I think he knows there is truth in it. He knows he took his eye off the ball when he went AWOL for the last two weeks of Feb at Chevening and he knows he could probably have avoided getting infected if he had taken distancing seriously.

    The result of that is that he is going to be ultra ultra cautious in easing the lock down.

    The combination of the two will probably result in the UK having about the worst outcome in Europe
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673

    Sounds smart. I think some papers were projecting what they want.
    They were flying Government kites and found it was just a bit too windy.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    isam said:

    isam said:

    @MikeSmithson @TheScreamingEagles

    How many "Dont Knows" in a poll are enough to make the results dodgy?

    Depends on the sample size and the questions.

    You'd expect higher levels of DKs/Wouldn't Says on the supplementaries as some people don't have opinions on all subjects/have no knowledge on the question.
    Current leadership ratings for Starmer

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership_approval_opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    That's not dodgy, most people really don't know Sir Keir Starmer, for example with David Cameron's first leader ratings 52% of voters were DKs.

    For Ed Miliband it was 37%.

    For Corbyn it was 31%.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,572
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    If your CLP or BLP is continuing to act in a highly factional manner, I suggest that you escalate matters via a complaint through the NW Regional Office. You might find that there's more support for tackling this than you imagine, and they do have some significant powers.

    That appreciated but I am assured that the CLP EC are welcoming me back. The last complaint against me (mistakenly calling Laura Pillock "Pidcock" on Facebook) was dismissed personally by the now departed Senior Regional Director. My BLP chair then raised a complaint that I had "brought the party into disrepute" when I posted a photo of my cut up membership card on Twitter. Which was dismissed as "under what rules do you want us to discipline someone who isn't a party member".

    Essentially if you are a cultist its perfectly ok to literally run against Labour one year and then join Labour the next, but if you are a True Blue Tory like I am its not ok to have what John Lennon described as his "lost weekend".

    I would be appalled if people such as Ian Austin and John Woodcock were readmitted to party membership. Both sent out literature in marginal seats exhorting Labour voters to vote Tory. Has Gisela Stuart been expelled yet?
    It's too early yet. But if they reapply after a decent interval, then I would have them back in. You have to accept that Labour cannot win without gaining the support of a very broad coalition, and we're a long way from that at this point.

    Whenever someone prominent who has supported another party applies to join yours, then the rule is that you admit them provided you believe their motives are genuine. It indicates that your party is capable of appealing beyond a narrow base, and that your opponents are not what they once were. If Ian Austin were backing the Labour candidate in Dudley North next time, then it would be totemic given what happened in 2019. On the other hand, if he reapplied and was thrown out, it would get a lot of coverage and people would conclude that Corbyn's lot were still pulling the strings of the front man.
    No - Ian Austin went to great lengths to damage Labour and was actively supporting the Tories. It gave me great pleasure to send him several messages via Twitter to the effect that he was following the wonderful example of Pierre Laval - by starting off on the Left then moving sharply to the Right.
    I can see the Tory attack lines in 2024 now. They won't see much mileage in attacking Starmer himself. Rather they'll just portray him as a puppet of the far left which is still running the show. Indeed the far left have shown every inclination to want to remain in just such a position since Starmer was elected. I'm struggling to think of any action by them that's been supportive of his
    leadership. I fear that an image of Starmer in Corbyn's front pocket could be quite potent.

    How do you think Labour should act in order that that doesn't strike a chord with the public?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673
    RobD said:
    LOL, all good grist to the mill of the arrogance of the Fat Controller. Keep up the good work Bozo, you are playing a blinder.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849

    kinabalu said:

    86k tests...BJO incoming...

    I'll do it. It is now undeniable that the 100k was a fiddle. Sad.
    Of course it's deniable. There was latent demand that was satisfied in a peak and since then demand dropped off. Last week if you went to the website to book a test you could be told they were fully booked. Now there is still availability.

    Plus if it was a fiddle they'd just continue to fiddle it. Very lame half hearted fiddle otherwise.
    Undeniable except by you, I meant.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673

    Scott_xP said:
    She really shouldn't believe everything she reads in the papers......
    Struggling badly, given she has already said she will not be relaxing anything and teh Fat balloon has had to backpeddle from his position , you have a strange idea of how things look. Keep up the good work Haw Haw.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673
    kinabalu said:

    86k tests...BJO incoming...

    I'll do it. It is now undeniable that the 100k was a fiddle. Sad.
    Just what you expect from the lying barstewards and the pathetic sycophancy of their pathetic cheerleaders on here is vomit inducing.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849
    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    R - 05 - 09

    Needs to be < 0.5 for the big unlock.

    Just garden centres for now, I'm thinking.
    Well, there's no reason to think R will decrease further unless the restrictions are actually tightened.

    What's needed is for the number of active cases to drop so that we don't immediately end up back in the same boat if R rises again. The number of new cases per day now is well above the level when the lockdown was introduced, though of course much more testing is now being done.
    I was thinking that R could drop over time as those most likely to get it get it?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092


    I can see the Tory attack lines in 2024 now. They won't see much mileage in attacking Starmer himself. Rather they'll just portray him as a puppet of the far left which is still running the show. Indeed the far left have shown every inclination to want to remain in just such a position since Starmer was elected. I'm struggling to think of any action by them that's been supportive of his
    leadership. I fear that an image of Starmer in Corbyn's front pocket could be quite potent.

    How do you think Labour should act in order that that doesn't strike a chord with the public?

    That's one of the more deranged takes I've seen for a while.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    86k tests...BJO incoming...

    I'll do it. It is now undeniable that the 100k was a fiddle. Sad.
    Of course it's deniable. There was latent demand that was satisfied in a peak and since then demand dropped off. Last week if you went to the website to book a test you could be told they were fully booked. Now there is still availability.

    Plus if it was a fiddle they'd just continue to fiddle it. Very lame half hearted fiddle otherwise.
    Undeniable except by you, I meant.
    If demand isn't the issue then why is there still availability online? Why aren't they fully booked out online like last week?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673

    malcolmg said:

    She is not a nodding donkey like Boris, we already know SAGE are stooges led and told what to do by Boris's rottwieler. She will not be led by the nose.
    Er... but that's her own scientific advisory group, not SAGE. Or has she selected her own bunch of Boris stooges?
    Er..... but did you read it turnip head, it said SAGE evidence, she obviously knows they are lickspittles for Bozo via his bagman and so has not chosen to follow their stupidity in promoting Tory propaganda even if her own diddies are too lazy to do their own evidence.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    edited May 2020
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    The Mail has been coming out all guns blazing in the run-up to VE Day:

    https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1258345696618561538?s=21

    Two world wars and one World Cup and one Coronavirus.

    But I’m sure the pb commentariat will be along shortly to explain why this constant harking back for stolen valour is helpful in 2020.

    Yes, there will be a lot more "Two World Wars and One World Cup" being sung tomorrow than if it were a advertised as a celebration of the war ending rather than a celebration of "victory". A point I tried to make last night without much success in persuading anyone!
    Not by you, I hope. Waters would NOT approve.
    Of course not! He quoted a US President (Eisenhower) on a show I saw years ago on war casualties. Something about every death being ‘a theft’?

    Edit it was the ‘chance for peace’ Speech, and it was about the production of war machinery, not soldiers deaths
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    She is not a nodding donkey like Boris, we already know SAGE are stooges led and told what to do by Boris's rottwieler. She will not be led by the nose.
    Er... but that's her own scientific advisory group, not SAGE. Or has she selected her own bunch of Boris stooges?
    Er..... but did you read it turnip head, it said SAGE evidence, she obviously knows they are lickspittles for Bozo via his bagman and so has not chosen to follow their stupidity in promoting Tory propaganda even if her own diddies are too lazy to do their own evidence.
    You think the evidence presented at SAGE is made up or something?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673

    kinabalu said:

    86k tests...BJO incoming...

    I'll do it. It is now undeniable that the 100k was a fiddle. Sad.
    Of course it's deniable. There was latent demand that was satisfied in a peak and since then demand dropped off. Last week if you went to the website to book a test you could be told they were fully booked. Now there is still availability.

    Plus if it was a fiddle they'd just continue to fiddle it. Very lame half hearted fiddle otherwise.
    FFS Philip , you make HYFUD look believable. These barstewards could murder your whole family and you would deny they did it.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    edited May 2020

    isam said:

    isam said:

    @MikeSmithson @TheScreamingEagles

    How many "Dont Knows" in a poll are enough to make the results dodgy?

    Depends on the sample size and the questions.

    You'd expect higher levels of DKs/Wouldn't Says on the supplementaries as some people don't have opinions on all subjects/have no knowledge on the question.
    Current leadership ratings for Starmer

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership_approval_opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    That's not dodgy, most people really don't know Sir Keir Starmer, for example with David Cameron's first leader ratings 52% of voters were DKs.

    For Ed Miliband it was 37%.

    For Corbyn it was 31%.
    What would you say was the the threshold for it to be not worth taking notice of in terms of cutting through with the public?

    Another question... why is Starmer thrashing Corbyn on leadership ratings, yet a few Points behind him on ‘best PM vs Boris’?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092


    That you still want to excuse his anti-Semitism even now makes me wonder what you have against Jews. There's no partisan need to defend him anymore.

    When the party I normally support elected a racist in Theresa 'Go Home' May I called it out. It's a shame you aren't prepared to do the same thing for Jeremy 'For The Many Not The Jew' Corbyn.

    Rochdale and I put standing up to racism above partisan politics. You put partisan politics above racism. For shame.

    As one of the many Jewish supporters of Corbyn, fuck you for using us as a way of scoring political points, for abetting genuine antisemitism by constantly crying wolf, and for having the temerity to be self-righteous about it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    If your CLP or BLP is continuing to act in a highly factional manner, I suggest that you escalate matters via a complaint through the NW Regional Office. You might find that there's more support for tackling this than you imagine, and they do have some significant powers.

    That appreciated but I am assured that the CLP EC are welcoming me back. The last complaint against me (mistakenly calling Laura Pillock "Pidcock" on Facebook) was dismissed personally by the now departed Senior Regional Director. My BLP chair then raised a complaint that I had "brought the party into disrepute" when I posted a photo of my cut up membership card on Twitter. Which was dismissed as "under what rules do you want us to discipline someone who isn't a party member".

    Essentially if you are a cultist its perfectly ok to literally run against Labour one year and then join Labour the next, but if you are a True Blue Tory like I am its not ok to have what John Lennon described as his "lost weekend".

    I would be appalled if people such as Ian Austin and John Woodcock were readmitted to party membership. Both sent out literature in marginal seats exhorting Labour voters to vote Tory. Has Gisela Stuart been expelled yet?
    It's too early yet. But if they reapply after a decent interval, then I would have them back in. You have to accept that Labour cannot win without gaining the support of a very broad coalition, and we're a long way from that at this point.

    Whenever someone prominent who has supported another party applies to join yours, then the rule is that you admit them provided you believe their motives are genuine. It indicates that your party is capable of appealing beyond a narrow base, and that your opponents are not what they once were. If Ian Austin were backing the Labour candidate in Dudley North next time, then it would be totemic given what happened in 2019. On the other hand, if he reapplied and was thrown out, it would get a lot of coverage and people would conclude that Corbyn's lot were still pulling the strings of the front man.
    No - Ian Austin went to great lengths to damage Labour and was actively supporting the Tories. It gave me great pleasure to send him several messages via Twitter to the effect that he was following the wonderful example of Pierre Laval - by starting off on the Left then moving sharply to the Right.
    I can see the Tory attack lines in 2024 now. They won't see much mileage in attacking Starmer himself. Rather they'll just portray him as a puppet of the far left which is still running the show. Indeed the far left have shown every inclination to want to remain in just such a position since Starmer was elected. I'm struggling to think of any action by them that's been supportive of his
    leadership. I fear that an image of Starmer in Corbyn's front pocket could be quite potent.

    How do you think Labour should act in order that that doesn't strike a chord with the public?
    Cosy up to the LDs who they will likely need to get into Government as Cameron did in 2010
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    Donald Trump's greatest weakness is that his entire Presidency revolves around trying to undo everything Obama did.

    You see it when it comes to foreign policy, you see it when it comes to healthcare. If Obama liked it, it must be terrible.

    Obamacare has brought affordable health care to tens of millions of Americans - many of then Trump supporters. Had Trump managed to repeal Obamacare then his Presidency would now be over. Mitt Romney saved President Trump.

    If Donald Trump and the Republicans want to spend the next six months arguing over the repeal of Obamacare, then they might as well just hand the keys to the White House to Joe Biden.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    But in early 2019 Labour was ahead!
    Yes, people do not give Johnson enough credit. The ghastly guy pulled off an utter triumph, electorally, and he has genuine appeal to lots of people. I think it's because the host of this site, plus many of the more prolific and influential participants, have a very dim view of both him AND Corbyn - thus the preferred narrative is that Johnson is crap but won a landslide because Corbyn was twice as crap. This doesn't ring true to me. It was many things, clearly, but what it mainly was was "Boris" and his all conquering message, Get Brexit Done, which played well to both Leavers and the large number of Remainers who nevertheless were sick and tired of "it" and wanted "it" done.
    Boris's greatest strength as a politician is the dogged determination that his opponents apply to underestimating him.
    Indeed. Those opponents have a bizarre, almost inexplicable superiority complex when it comes to Boris, and therefore being so comprehensively defeated by him has caused a logic error in their brains. As if being beaten by an Eton & Balliol man were somehow beneath them...
    It’s the country that is being defeated. Conservatives on here are chortling that their man is getting away with tens of thousands of avoidable deaths and rank incompetence.

    If they actually cared about the country, as opposed to indulging their tribal loyalty, they’d be incandescent with rage at how this government has let the country down. But partisanship is more important I guess.
    Is our man running France, Spain, and Italy too? The sad truth is that of the five large nations in Western Europe, four are much of a muchness when it comes to death rates both absolute and per capita.

    We are greatly underestimating how little the virus cares about the differing ideologies and personalities of the leadership in those countries - with Germany the only clear exception.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2020
    An interesting answer from the press conference:

    Dr Jenny Harries, the deputy chief medical officer for England, said up to a third of people with coronavirus do not have a temperature when the illness first hits. She said: "A sizeable proportion, up to about a third of people, do not have a temperature at presentation. They may have it variably through the illness or they don’t have it."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/may/07/uk-coronavirus-live-boris-johnson-cabinet-meeting-review-lift-lockdown-measures-latest-updates

    I was surprised that she thinks it's as high as two-thirds effective.

    My conclusion from that would be the opposite of what the government or its advisers seem to have concluded: if a temperature check can detect two-thirds of cases, and those people can then be quarantined or refused boarding on a plane, then surely it's extremely useful for reducing the overall spread of the disease and particularly for reducing the number of new cases introduced into the country or into a care home or other critical place. Of course it doesn't mean that someone without a temperature is necessarily safe, but this is all about reducing the spread, not catching every possible case, and it seems to be a fairly cheap and non-disruptive check.
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