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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A big challenge for Johnson and his minsters is that their rat

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited June 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A big challenge for Johnson and his minsters is that their rating on how they’re handling COVID 19 has now gone negative

Several pollsters are asking regular questions on how the public think the government is handling the pandemic. YouGov and Opinium have published the most data on this and I have chosen the former for my chart.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    edited June 2020
    This thread is now NEW :D
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,833
    Second, like Starmer at PMQs.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    FPT:

    Just seen a new name for Boris Johnson in the Guardian; de Piffle!

    May have been used before but it's the first time I've seen it. Seems appropriate!

    It is actually his middle name
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,898

    FPT:

    Just seen a new name for Boris Johnson in the Guardian; de Piffle!

    May have been used before but it's the first time I've seen it. Seems appropriate!

    It is actually his middle name
    Not quite; just sounds like it!
  • eekeek Posts: 24,924
    FPT

    Lets be honest the Government from 2010 has achieved a grand total of f*ck all compared to what Thatcher and Blair achieved.

    Actually quite a lot has been 'achieved'; much, if not all of it of it negative.

    I would suggest that our country's 'standing' in the world has rarely, if ever, been lower!
    And that's not me 'talking down' it's a view formed from what I hear and read. Shaming.
    Yet none of the "achievements" were intentional bar screwing up the union by creating a border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,898
    Sandpit said:

    Second, like Starmer at PMQs.

    You mean, after May!
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    FPT:

    Just seen a new name for Boris Johnson in the Guardian; de Piffle!

    May have been used before but it's the first time I've seen it. Seems appropriate!

    It is actually his middle name
    Not quite; just sounds like it!
    It is pronounced the same way...

    Good morning BTW :)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,191
    The government is close to losing all credibility over its handling of the crisis.

    Following close behind Cummings we have had the quarantine policy fiasco, ongoing problems in care homes, a whole batch of tests having to be repeated, confusion over the latest rule changes, and now a second wave of infections is likely to break out in parliament itself. We have now overtaken Spain on death rate and are only behind Belgium among nations of any size. Meanwhile the contact App clearly doesn’t work and even islanders are waiting for the promised significantly revised version.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    This pandemic has always had a touch of the Year 2000 remediation about it.

    - If you succeed in containing the virus, then you get blamed for over-hyping its deadliness

    - If there are bodies piled high then you get blamed for not doing enough

    Like Y2K, even if you succeed, it is perceived as failure.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited June 2020
    Jackson Carlaw, Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. twisting the knife into BoZo’s belly just now on BBC Radio Scotland. He says, repeatedly, that he is “not wholly convinced” by Dominic Cummings’ explanation for his actions.

    Classic code for “the man’s a liar”.

    Astonishingly, Carlaw has not spoken to his boss BoZo in months. They have only exchanged two text messages since The Clown was released from hospital.

    Carlaw sounds like a drowning man, unable to affect either his opponents nor his (supposed) allies.

    The Milton Keynes appointee is a real kick in the groin.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,191
    Meanwhile Boris reacts petulantly in parliament to being asked a few pointed but entirely reasonable questions by the opposition, claiming some sort of national responsibility only to agree with the government, while at the same time a batch of his own backbenchers take to the airwaves to pronounce as idiotic their own government policy on quarantine.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,081

    This pandemic has always had a touch of the Year 2000 remediation about it.

    - If you succeed in containing the virus, then you get blamed for over-hyping its deadliness

    - If there are bodies piled high then you get blamed for not doing enough

    Like Y2K, even if you succeed, it is perceived as failure.

    With the difference that people should be able to see what is happening in other countries such as Brazil. They should be able to see there is already a second wave in Iran. But they're locked down inside their own fantasy worlds of wishful thinking.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Second, like Starmer at PMQs.

    Admirable loyalty to the blue team, but if you think Johnsons petulant little tantrums are impressive, then there is no hope for you.

    Just face it. The PM is a lazy, ill prepared fuckwit.
    Tell it like it is @Foxy - do not hide behind innuendo and hyperbole :D:D:D
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,191
    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,924
    Chris said:

    This pandemic has always had a touch of the Year 2000 remediation about it.

    - If you succeed in containing the virus, then you get blamed for over-hyping its deadliness

    - If there are bodies piled high then you get blamed for not doing enough

    Like Y2K, even if you succeed, it is perceived as failure.

    With the difference that people should be able to see what is happening in other countries such as Brazil. They should be able to see there is already a second wave in Iran. But they're locked down inside their own fantasy worlds of wishful thinking.
    But for most people the reports from Brazil / Iran are 30 seconds of news 25 minutes into a 30 minute news program that they switched off after the headlines.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,482
    Scott_xP said:
    Announced deaths, rather than daily deaths (as was said on #Newsnight in the accompanying piece) but pretty stark.

    One wonders whether trashing the airline industry with quarantine is really nessecary at this point in time, when we are the hotspot. Quarantine from Brazil, Mexico and USA maybe, but why wreck short-haul?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Chris said:

    This pandemic has always had a touch of the Year 2000 remediation about it.

    - If you succeed in containing the virus, then you get blamed for over-hyping its deadliness

    - If there are bodies piled high then you get blamed for not doing enough

    Like Y2K, even if you succeed, it is perceived as failure.

    With the difference that people should be able to see what is happening in other countries such as Brazil. They should be able to see there is already a second wave in Iran. But they're locked down inside their own fantasy worlds of wishful thinking.
    It is not a case of "... They should be able to see ...", it is more of a "why would they look"? Most people do not care what happens in the next town to theirs never mind some country thousands of miles away. They worry about Aunty Mabel, not Ahmed in Tehran.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,191
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Announced deaths, rather than daily deaths (as was said on #Newsnight in the accompanying piece) but pretty stark.

    One wonders whether trashing the airline industry with quarantine is really nessecary at this point in time, when we are the hotspot. Quarantine from Brazil, Mexico and USA maybe, but why wreck short-haul?
    I wonder whether the truth is that we realise we are likely to have to prevent travel from the US, but daren't risk upsetting the Orange Blob by being so direct about it?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Announced deaths, rather than daily deaths (as was said on #Newsnight in the accompanying piece) but pretty stark.

    One wonders whether trashing the airline industry with quarantine is really nessecary at this point in time, when we are the hotspot. Quarantine from Brazil, Mexico and USA maybe, but why wreck short-haul?
    I wonder whether the truth is that we realise we are likely to have to prevent travel from the US, but daren't risk upsetting the Orange Blob by being so direct about it?
    The Marmalade Monster will be under arrest by the US military for endangering the Constitution...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,482
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Announced deaths, rather than daily deaths (as was said on #Newsnight in the accompanying piece) but pretty stark.

    One wonders whether trashing the airline industry with quarantine is really nessecary at this point in time, when we are the hotspot. Quarantine from Brazil, Mexico and USA maybe, but why wreck short-haul?
    I wonder whether the truth is that we realise we are likely to have to prevent travel from the US, but daren't risk upsetting the Orange Blob by being so direct about it?
    The truth is that the government is in chaos, and completely at odds with each other, with a total absence of leadership by BoZo.

    Priti clearly is pursuing an independent authoritarian lockdown policy, on top of her immigration one. Conspicuously she was the only one not backing Cummings.

    I have no time for the poison dwarf, but she seems to be the only one with a sense of purpose.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346
    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,191

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Australians don't keep records of their dead health workers?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,829

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    Bollocks

    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1267856088449323010

    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1267856089661542400

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Scott_xP said:
    The supine members of our Cabinet are probably not allowed to answer that, but if you hold on a while, the PB Tories will pop in after they receive today's Attack Lines in their email ;)
  • coachcoach Posts: 250

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Only certain lives matter. The hysterical ones marching yesterday were the same hysterical ones last week when Cummings was in the news.

    Sensible discussion, including on here, is very difficult to come by
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Scott_xP said:

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    Bollocks

    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1267856088449323010

    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1267856089661542400

    The testing stats are new and very dubious.

    But I do think the Office for National Statistics are the gold standard. Their weekly death statistics publication is top notch.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,482

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    I think the evidence is that our statistical accuracy is at best middling. Not as bad as Indonesia, but worse than most.

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    edited June 2020
    FPT:

    Just seen a new name for Boris Johnson in the Guardian; de Piffle!

    May have been used before but it's the first time I've seen it. Seems appropriate!



    we have a new shitpost meme. brilliant.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,191
    R4: Brandon Lewis suggesting Sharma may have had "severe hay fever"
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And why is nothing effective being done about it?

    Is it because it's happening within communities that wider society doesn't care about? Are those communities disproportionately non white?

    We call that systemic..... I'll let you fill in the blank.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    edited June 2020
    Alistair said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And why is nothing effective being done about it?

    Is it because it's happening within communities that wider society doesn't care about? Are those communities disproportionately non white?

    We call that systemic..... I'll let you fill in the blank.
    No different to society not giving two shits about what was going on in Rotherham. I don't think I've ever heard that described as racism.

    In fact, the media went out of the way to tell us that Asian men weren't more likely to be rapists, ignoring the fact that most of the victims were white girls.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,924
    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And drug dealing is usually related to lack of role models and other opportunities.

    Which sadly is a far greater issue for Black males than any other group (including white working class males)
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,043
    Scott_xP said:
    Ah, the long-awaited Brexit dividend: halving the EU's daily deaths from Coronavirus.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,565
    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    So why do you think they are predominantly black then?
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Alistair said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And why is nothing effective being done about it?

    Is it because it's happening within communities that wider society doesn't care about? Are those communities disproportionately non white?

    We call that systemic..... I'll let you fill in the blank.
    Out of interest who is "we"?

    You're right, wider society doesn't care, but the white middle class liberals in Islington care alright - where do you think they buy their drugs? Yep, from the black kids on bikes without a care of the consequences.

    I've filled in the blank for you, hope it helped.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    DougSeal said:

    twitter.com/rcolvile/status/1268434472300679169

    That made me laugh as to how they are already collecting excuses, assigning blame in advance and looking for a Chairman who will not go gunning for scalps.

    The govt knows it is in the sh*t and that probably explains a large part of Boris's increasing tetchiness...
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    eek said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And drug dealing is usually related to lack of role models and other opportunities.

    Which sadly is a far greater issue for Black males than any other group (including white working class males)
    Correct, and has been for decades. I'm not sure how you persuade young black people to take parenthood more seriously.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,898
    IanB2 said:

    R4: Brandon Lewis suggesting Sharma may have had "severe hay fever"

    Brandon Lewis was also totally unable to answer the question; 'how many is thousands'. Unable, apparently to distinguish between two and ten (for example).
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    kjh said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    So why do you think they are predominantly black then?
    No idea mate, just stating a fact
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,090
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    I think the evidence is that our statistical accuracy is at best middling. Not as bad as Indonesia, but worse than most.

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries
    No truly reliable statistics on this for any country are going to emerge for at least two years, maybe longer. In some of them, e.g. China, they will probably never emerge.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,833
    edited June 2020
    DougSeal said:
    Just as well the PM has a close advisor who has realised this for years, and is determined to push through major Whitehall reforms. I wonder when it will hit the mandarins, that they’re going to be the ones in the firing line?
  • alednamalednam Posts: 185
    Could be that the PM's expression of pride in his the government’s record and response on coronavirus (at PMQs) will impact negatively on his approval ratings.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,019
    edited June 2020
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Announced deaths, rather than daily deaths (as was said on #Newsnight in the accompanying piece) but pretty stark.

    One wonders whether trashing the airline industry with quarantine is really nessecary at this point in time, when we are the hotspot. Quarantine from Brazil, Mexico and USA maybe, but why wreck short-haul?
    I wonder whether the truth is that we realise we are likely to have to prevent travel from the US, but daren't risk upsetting the Orange Blob by being so direct about it?
    I can think of a couple of other practical/presentational problems.

    1. You are reliant on accurate knowledge of virus prevalence in other countries. This is difficult because of problems with testing, and the incubation period and asymptotic spread. If there was a second wave in France would we know about it in time to prevent it spreading here in large numbers?

    2. If you impose quarantine only on the subset of countries with higher infection rates than the UK, and that list is short, it looks bad.

    Both of those reasons point to imposing blanket restrictions that you lift selectively and carefully.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,090
    IanB2 said:

    R4: Brandon Lewis suggesting Sharma may have had "severe hay fever"

    Not on that he’s been grassed up like that.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    coach said:

    kjh said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    So why do you think they are predominantly black then?
    No idea mate, just stating a fact
    You stated it as it it was some devastating rebuttal to the idea of systemic racism.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,029
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    Bollocks

    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1267856088449323010

    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1267856089661542400

    The testing stats are new and very dubious.

    But I do think the Office for National Statistics are the gold standard. Their weekly death statistics publication is top notch.
    If the terms of reference requested by the client (HMG) are spurious, the results will be spurious, regardless of the accuracy of the ONS.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Brandon Lewis suggesting Sharma may have had "severe hay fever"

    Not on that he’s been grassed up like that.
    You are just pollen our legs ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,934
    Rishi Sunak's rating however for how he is dealing with Covid 19 and the furlough scheme etc is positive
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,237
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Announced deaths, rather than daily deaths (as was said on #Newsnight in the accompanying piece) but pretty stark.

    One wonders whether trashing the airline industry with quarantine is really nessecary at this point in time, when we are the hotspot. Quarantine from Brazil, Mexico and USA maybe, but why wreck short-haul?
    I wonder whether the truth is that we realise we are likely to have to prevent travel from the US, but daren't risk upsetting the Orange Blob by being so direct about it?
    The truth is that the government is in chaos, and completely at odds with each other, with a total absence of leadership by BoZo.

    Priti clearly is pursuing an independent authoritarian lockdown policy, on top of her immigration one. Conspicuously she was the only one not backing Cummings.

    I have no time for the poison dwarf, but she seems to be the only one with a sense of purpose.
    'Poison dwarf' referring to a BME politician from a doctor grates

    And I absolutely do not support her
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,092
    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    +1. With all the coverage regarding the Madeline McCann suspect this morning. This tragic case has been in the news for 13 years. In the UK a child is reported missing every 3 minutes. There has never been any coverage regarding, say, the disappearance of Zhara Ibdi, who has not been seen since 2005, or Yan Chen, who vanished the following year. It sounds crass but the difference is obvious.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Alistair said:

    coach said:

    kjh said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    So why do you think they are predominantly black then?
    No idea mate, just stating a fact
    You stated it as it it was some devastating rebuttal to the idea of systemic racism.
    I did no such thing, look at the stats re the stabbings its massively black on black, you might find that unpalatable but its a fact. It has nothing to do with racism.

    And for the second time, who is "we" please?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,833

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Announced deaths, rather than daily deaths (as was said on #Newsnight in the accompanying piece) but pretty stark.

    One wonders whether trashing the airline industry with quarantine is really nessecary at this point in time, when we are the hotspot. Quarantine from Brazil, Mexico and USA maybe, but why wreck short-haul?
    I wonder whether the truth is that we realise we are likely to have to prevent travel from the US, but daren't risk upsetting the Orange Blob by being so direct about it?
    I can think of a couple of other practical/presentational problems.

    1. You are reliant on accurate knowledge of virus prevalence in other countries. This is difficult because of problems with testing, and the incubation period and asymptotic spread. If there was a second wave in France would we know about it in time to prevent it spreading here in large numbers?

    2. If you impose quarantine only on the subset of countries with higher infection rates than the UK, and that list is short, it looks bad.

    Both of those reasons point to imposing blanket restrictions that you lift selectively and carefully.
    Also, a reliable way of working out where people have been in the past couple of weeks before they arrive. Someone coming in on a plane from the Schengen zone, or one of the large Middle East airports, can have been quite literally anywhere.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,565
    coach said:

    kjh said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    So why do you think they are predominantly black then?
    No idea mate, just stating a fact
    Yes you do. You didn't state a fact, you stated an opinion. You said it had nothing to do with race. That is an opinion not a fact. The FACT that a disproportionate number are black implies it is related to race.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,237

    Scott_xP said:
    The supine members of our Cabinet are probably not allowed to answer that, but if you hold on a while, the PB Tories will pop in after they receive today's Attack Lines in their email ;)
    This conservative supports the question 100%
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    Bollocks

    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1267856088449323010

    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1267856089661542400

    The testing stats are new and very dubious.

    But I do think the Office for National Statistics are the gold standard. Their weekly death statistics publication is top notch.
    If the terms of reference requested by the client (HMG) are spurious, the results will be spurious, regardless of the accuracy of the ONS.
    The stats published by the ONS - i.e. the total number of deaths - are independent of government. What's great about the ONS stats is that they are updated on a weekly basis and have been done so for years and years. We can have a lot of confidence in those statistics.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,092
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Announced deaths, rather than daily deaths (as was said on #Newsnight in the accompanying piece) but pretty stark.

    One wonders whether trashing the airline industry with quarantine is really nessecary at this point in time, when we are the hotspot. Quarantine from Brazil, Mexico and USA maybe, but why wreck short-haul?
    I wonder whether the truth is that we realise we are likely to have to prevent travel from the US, but daren't risk upsetting the Orange Blob by being so direct about it?
    I can think of a couple of other practical/presentational problems.

    1. You are reliant on accurate knowledge of virus prevalence in other countries. This is difficult because of problems with testing, and the incubation period and asymptotic spread. If there was a second wave in France would we know about it in time to prevent it spreading here in large numbers?

    2. If you impose quarantine only on the subset of countries with higher infection rates than the UK, and that list is short, it looks bad.

    Both of those reasons point to imposing blanket restrictions that you lift selectively and carefully.
    Also, a reliable way of working out where people have been in the past couple of weeks before they arrive. Someone coming in on a plane from the Schengen zone, or one of the large Middle East airports, can have been quite literally anywhere.
    In March Italy banned flights from China. So people came in via Heathrow and Schiphol instead.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,829

    'Poison dwarf' referring to a BME politician from a doctor grates

    If you are familiar with the origin of the term, you will know it has nothing to do with skin colour
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,879
    coach said:

    eek said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And drug dealing is usually related to lack of role models and other opportunities.

    Which sadly is a far greater issue for Black males than any other group (including white working class males)
    Correct, and has been for decades. I'm not sure how you persuade young black people to take parenthood more seriously.
    I find this comment out of order.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,829
    Presumably Sharma gets the results of his "24hr Corona test" today, as promised by BoZo at PMQs...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,237
    Scott_xP said:

    'Poison dwarf' referring to a BME politician from a doctor grates

    If you are familiar with the origin of the term, you will know it has nothing to do with skin colour
    It is not appropriate when referring to a female BME politician and especially from a doctor

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,898
    coach said:

    eek said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And drug dealing is usually related to lack of role models and other opportunities.

    Which sadly is a far greater issue for Black males than any other group (including white working class males)
    Correct, and has been for decades. I'm not sure how you persuade young black people to take parenthood more seriously.
    I'm sure I read somewhere that, in part at least, it's a result of slavery. Men were sold away from their wives and children, and 'children' were sold away from their parents. Men were encouraged to breed with several women because they were strong.
    I don't think, although I've never read any studies on the subject, there's a culture of male abandonment of families, or family responsibilities, in West Africa. AFAIK, or have ever heard, it's the same as the rest of the world.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,829
    Sandpit said:

    Just as well the PM has a close advisor who has realised this for years, and is determined to push through major Whitehall reforms. I wonder when it will hit the mandarins, that they’re going to be the ones in the firing line?

    https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1268441322207272960
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,090

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Brandon Lewis suggesting Sharma may have had "severe hay fever"

    Not on that he’s been grassed up like that.
    You are just pollen our legs ;)
    I don’t know wheat you mean.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,829

    It is not appropriate when referring to a female BME politician and especially from a doctor

    It really is
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    kjh said:

    coach said:

    kjh said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    So why do you think they are predominantly black then?
    No idea mate, just stating a fact
    Yes you do. You didn't state a fact, you stated an opinion. You said it had nothing to do with race. That is an opinion not a fact. The FACT that a disproportionate number are black implies it is related to race.
    It is a fact, you might find it uncomfortable but its undeniable. Talk to the middle class white people who buy the drugs, they know the score.

    And I appreciate you're desperate to call me a racist so just get it over and done with.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,019
    edited June 2020
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Announced deaths, rather than daily deaths (as was said on #Newsnight in the accompanying piece) but pretty stark.

    One wonders whether trashing the airline industry with quarantine is really nessecary at this point in time, when we are the hotspot. Quarantine from Brazil, Mexico and USA maybe, but why wreck short-haul?
    I wonder whether the truth is that we realise we are likely to have to prevent travel from the US, but daren't risk upsetting the Orange Blob by being so direct about it?
    I can think of a couple of other practical/presentational problems.

    1. You are reliant on accurate knowledge of virus prevalence in other countries. This is difficult because of problems with testing, and the incubation period and asymptotic spread. If there was a second wave in France would we know about it in time to prevent it spreading here in large numbers?

    2. If you impose quarantine only on the subset of countries with higher infection rates than the UK, and that list is short, it looks bad.

    Both of those reasons point to imposing blanket restrictions that you lift selectively and carefully.
    Also, a reliable way of working out where people have been in the past couple of weeks before they arrive. Someone coming in on a plane from the Schengen zone, or one of the large Middle East airports, can have been quite literally anywhere.
    Yes, I would have thought that a feature of any reciprocal agreement on freeing travel between countries - as between Australia and New Zealand - would be a mutual agreement not to lift restrictions on other countries until doing so together.

    That way you can lift restrictions on travel from France, say, confident that they will share your continuing restrictions on travel from the US, Brazil, Mexico, etc.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    eristdoof said:

    coach said:

    eek said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And drug dealing is usually related to lack of role models and other opportunities.

    Which sadly is a far greater issue for Black males than any other group (including white working class males)
    Correct, and has been for decades. I'm not sure how you persuade young black people to take parenthood more seriously.
    I find this comment out of order.
    eristdoof said:

    coach said:

    eek said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And drug dealing is usually related to lack of role models and other opportunities.

    Which sadly is a far greater issue for Black males than any other group (including white working class males)
    Correct, and has been for decades. I'm not sure how you persuade young black people to take parenthood more seriously.
    I find this comment out of order.
    I suspect you find quite a lot of things out of order
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,043
    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And why is nothing effective being done about it?

    Is it because it's happening within communities that wider society doesn't care about? Are those communities disproportionately non white?

    We call that systemic..... I'll let you fill in the blank.
    Out of interest who is "we"?

    You're right, wider society doesn't care, but the white middle class liberals in Islington care alright - where do you think they buy their drugs? Yep, from the black kids on bikes without a care of the consequences.

    I've filled in the blank for you, hope it helped.
    White middle class people in Islington all do drugs do they? Like Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson? Do tell us more.
    In my experience of being a white liberal middle class person living in an area with a high BME population, serious deprivation and regular stabbing incidents involving young people, I can tell you there is a lot more concern, activism and support from within the local community here than from the white population as a whole, who seem happy to fall back on ridiculous stereotypes and victim blaming. Perhaps it's different north of the river, but the picture you are painting strikes me as more like an absurd fantasy from a provincial Daily Mail reader than an informed and serious contribution to the debate. We live in the same streets as victims of violence, our kids go to the same schools, do you honestly think we don't care? Grow up.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,565
    coach said:

    kjh said:

    coach said:

    kjh said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    So why do you think they are predominantly black then?
    No idea mate, just stating a fact
    Yes you do. You didn't state a fact, you stated an opinion. You said it had nothing to do with race. That is an opinion not a fact. The FACT that a disproportionate number are black implies it is related to race.
    It is a fact, you might find it uncomfortable but its undeniable. Talk to the middle class white people who buy the drugs, they know the score.

    And I appreciate you're desperate to call me a racist so just get it over and done with.
    This is weird Do you not know the difference between a fact and an opinion?

    Do you not know what systemic means?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    coach said:

    eek said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And drug dealing is usually related to lack of role models and other opportunities.

    Which sadly is a far greater issue for Black males than any other group (including white working class males)
    Correct, and has been for decades. I'm not sure how you persuade young black people to take parenthood more seriously.
    I'm sure I read somewhere that, in part at least, it's a result of slavery. Men were sold away from their wives and children, and 'children' were sold away from their parents. Men were encouraged to breed with several women because they were strong.
    I don't think, although I've never read any studies on the subject, there's a culture of male abandonment of families, or family responsibilities, in West Africa. AFAIK, or have ever heard, it's the same as the rest of the world.
    The last thing black people need is a bunch of white people telling them about family life.

    Frankly, that's something which government and 'society' as a whole can't help with directly, and which people have to work on themselves and within that community.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,237
    Scott_xP said:
    And yesterdays protest march attended in contravention of the guidance by a prominent labour mp
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,090
    Scott_xP said:
    The obvious loophole is to say they all need their eyes testing after the flights.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    coach said:

    kjh said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    So why do you think they are predominantly black then?
    No idea mate, just stating a fact
    You stated it as it it was some devastating rebuttal to the idea of systemic racism.
    I did no such thing, look at the stats re the stabbings its massively black on black, you might find that unpalatable but its a fact. It has nothing to do with racism.

    And for the second time, who is "we" please?
    Mate, the conversation so far has be
    Me: Systemic racism exists
    You: but what about this effect of systemic racism
    Me: Yes, that is definetely an effect of Sytemic Racism, good example
    You: You don't like that I'm mentioning this clear and obvious effect of systemic racism

    It's a weird conversation.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,677
    DougSeal said:
    SOP from the feckless lot in charge, but not in control, of our government. Any bad consequences from their CV19 response somehow is the fault of a vague "British State" concept that is "not fit for purpose".
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,092
    coach said:

    eek said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And drug dealing is usually related to lack of role models and other opportunities.

    Which sadly is a far greater issue for Black males than any other group (including white working class males)
    Correct, and has been for decades. I'm not sure how you persuade young black people to take parenthood more seriously.
    Here’s an example of everyday racism on my part regarding cultural depictions. A few months ago I watched the Mary Queen of Scots movie with Saoirse Ronan. It is very unlikely that Mary spoke with a heavy Scots accent as she was portrayed, having spent virtually all her childhood in France, and I knew that. However, halfway through I noticed I was less bothered by how Mary sounded than how Thomas Randolph, who was played by black actor Adrian Lester, looked. Neither was I as bothered that Margot Robbie is much much better looking than the historical Elizabeth I. My brain had been trained to ignore those historical inaccuracies, and the many others in the film, save for the amount of melanin in one actor’s skin. That’s systemic racism showing in someone who tries really really hard not to be racist.

    Similarly we have no problem with James Bond having a Scots, English, Irish or indeed Australian accent, having brown or blue eyes, chest hair or no chest hair, but if a black actor is ever cast in the role we all know how the usual suspects will react.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,198
    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:
    Just as well the PM has a close advisor who has realised this for years, and is determined to push through major Whitehall reforms. I wonder when it will hit the mandarins, that they’re going to be the ones in the firing line?
    The Telegraph seems to have dropped the line that even more centralised power will somehow weaken Dominic Cummings, about which scepticism was posted here; today Sir Edward Lister:

    The source said: "Eddie is MIA [missing in action]. He is technically about but people have been told not to email Ed Lister — there is no point if you want a response. He is not going anywhere but he is not doing very much." The claim was categorically denied by Number 10.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/03/michael-goves-cabinet-office-overseenew-covid-19-alert-system/
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    coach said:

    eek said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And drug dealing is usually related to lack of role models and other opportunities.

    Which sadly is a far greater issue for Black males than any other group (including white working class males)
    Correct, and has been for decades. I'm not sure how you persuade young black people to take parenthood more seriously.
    So, hang on, previous post it was nothing to do with race and now it's all about it?

    You aren't very good at this.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    kjh said:

    coach said:

    kjh said:

    coach said:

    kjh said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    So why do you think they are predominantly black then?
    No idea mate, just stating a fact
    Yes you do. You didn't state a fact, you stated an opinion. You said it had nothing to do with race. That is an opinion not a fact. The FACT that a disproportionate number are black implies it is related to race.
    It is a fact, you might find it uncomfortable but its undeniable. Talk to the middle class white people who buy the drugs, they know the score.

    And I appreciate you're desperate to call me a racist so just get it over and done with.
    This is weird Do you not know the difference between a fact and an opinion?

    Do you not know what systemic means?
    I really have no idea where you're going with this, but its clear you have very little understanding of the drug supply chain in the UK.

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Boris is a conundrum. He waffles, and I've never heard him finish a sentence yet. A boring version of Frankie Howerd - without the humour. He has no train of thought. Yet he generates odd support, and attracts very nasty hatred.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,960
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. xP, you just beat me to it.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And why is nothing effective being done about it?

    Is it because it's happening within communities that wider society doesn't care about? Are those communities disproportionately non white?

    We call that systemic..... I'll let you fill in the blank.
    Out of interest who is "we"?

    You're right, wider society doesn't care, but the white middle class liberals in Islington care alright - where do you think they buy their drugs? Yep, from the black kids on bikes without a care of the consequences.

    I've filled in the blank for you, hope it helped.
    White middle class people in Islington all do drugs do they? Like Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson? Do tell us more.
    In my experience of being a white liberal middle class person living in an area with a high BME population, serious deprivation and regular stabbing incidents involving young people, I can tell you there is a lot more concern, activism and support from within the local community here than from the white population as a whole, who seem happy to fall back on ridiculous stereotypes and victim blaming. Perhaps it's different north of the river, but the picture you are painting strikes me as more like an absurd fantasy from a provincial Daily Mail reader than an informed and serious contribution to the debate. We live in the same streets as victims of violence, our kids go to the same schools, do you honestly think we don't care? Grow up.
    Haha! A self confessed "white, liberal, middle class person" telling me to grow up!

    You're deluded mate, you're the problem. And keep telling yourself I read the Daily Mail.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,829
    CD13 said:

    Boris is a conundrum. He waffles, and I've never heard him finish a sentence yet. A boring version of Frankie Howerd - without the humour. He has no train of thought. Yet he generates odd support, and attracts very nasty hatred.

    He's popular for the same reasons as Mr Bean

    And equally competent
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,237
    Scott_xP said:
    65% of the public support it as do the First Ministers

  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Alistair said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    coach said:

    kjh said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    So why do you think they are predominantly black then?
    No idea mate, just stating a fact
    You stated it as it it was some devastating rebuttal to the idea of systemic racism.
    I did no such thing, look at the stats re the stabbings its massively black on black, you might find that unpalatable but its a fact. It has nothing to do with racism.

    And for the second time, who is "we" please?
    Mate, the conversation so far has be
    Me: Systemic racism exists
    You: but what about this effect of systemic racism
    Me: Yes, that is definetely an effect of Sytemic Racism, good example
    You: You don't like that I'm mentioning this clear and obvious effect of systemic racism

    It's a weird conversation.
    Anyway, who's we?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,024
    DougSeal said:

    coach said:

    eek said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And drug dealing is usually related to lack of role models and other opportunities.

    Which sadly is a far greater issue for Black males than any other group (including white working class males)
    Correct, and has been for decades. I'm not sure how you persuade young black people to take parenthood more seriously.
    Here’s an example of everyday racism on my part regarding cultural depictions. A few months ago I watched the Mary Queen of Scots movie with Saoirse Ronan. It is very unlikely that Mary spoke with a heavy Scots accent as she was portrayed, having spent virtually all her childhood in France, and I knew that. However, halfway through I noticed I was less bothered by how Mary sounded than how Thomas Randolph, who was played by black actor Adrian Lester, looked. Neither was I as bothered that Margot Robbie is much much better looking than the historical Elizabeth I. My brain had been trained to ignore those historical inaccuracies, and the many others in the film, save for the amount of melanin in one actor’s skin. That’s systemic racism showing in someone who tries really really hard not to be racist.

    Similarly we have no problem with James Bond having a Scots, English, Irish or indeed Australian accent, having brown or blue eyes, chest hair or no chest hair, but if a black actor is ever cast in the role we all know how the usual suspects will react.
    What do you think the response would be if a white actor was cast in the role of playing a black person ?
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    DougSeal said:

    coach said:

    eek said:

    coach said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting to hear the editor of the Guardian say yesterday that they had decided to do a feature comparing the stories of health workers in the UK, US and Australia who had died of Coronavirus, but the Australian Guardian came back and said they didn't have any who had died.

    The reason we have the worst stats is that we are the best at collecting them.

    In regard to the black lives matters march yesterday in the UK, I wonder why people just shrug when almost on a daily basis a black teenager stabs to death another black teenager just becuase of the street that he lives in. Why is there not a march about this, don't these black lives matter?
    Yes, I think you are beginning to understand how systemic racism works.

    BLM is about combating systemic racism.
    Young kids in London stabbing each other is nothing to do with race its to do with drugs
    And drug dealing is usually related to lack of role models and other opportunities.

    Which sadly is a far greater issue for Black males than any other group (including white working class males)
    Correct, and has been for decades. I'm not sure how you persuade young black people to take parenthood more seriously.
    Here’s an example of everyday racism on my part regarding cultural depictions. A few months ago I watched the Mary Queen of Scots movie with Saoirse Ronan. It is very unlikely that Mary spoke with a heavy Scots accent as she was portrayed, having spent virtually all her childhood in France, and I knew that. However, halfway through I noticed I was less bothered by how Mary sounded than how Thomas Randolph, who was played by black actor Adrian Lester, looked. Neither was I as bothered that Margot Robbie is much much better looking than the historical Elizabeth I. My brain had been trained to ignore those historical inaccuracies, and the many others in the film, save for the amount of melanin in one actor’s skin. That’s systemic racism showing in someone who tries really really hard not to be racist.

    Similarly we have no problem with James Bond having a Scots, English, Irish or indeed Australian accent, having brown or blue eyes, chest hair or no chest hair, but if a black actor is ever cast in the role we all know how the usual suspects will react.
    No idea what that has to do with absent fathers
This discussion has been closed.