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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New YouGov polling finds Brits more ready consider traveling o

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited July 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New YouGov polling finds Brits more ready consider traveling overseas than foreigners ready to come to the UK

Given the current Covid19 figures for the UK then it is hardly surprising that Brits are more inclined to consider travelling to other countries than those who live there want to come here.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,828
    First like Liverpool.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,828
    To be honest getting on aeroplane isn't something I'm planning on doing until we have a vaccine.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,788
    Solve the health crisis, solve the economic crisis. They are conjoined.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071
    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,932
    Only 5% of the French would consider visiting the UK?

    Excellent. :smiley:
  • eekeek Posts: 24,698

    To be honest getting on aeroplane isn't something I'm planning on doing until we have a vaccine.

    As I said earlier I have a KLM voucher and a freebie weekend in Intercontinental Amstel to use. Because of that we will probably go to Amsterdam in October (it would be mad not to use them).
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,932
    eek said:

    To be honest getting on aeroplane isn't something I'm planning on doing until we have a vaccine.

    As I said earlier I have a KLM voucher and a freebie weekend in Intercontinental Amstel to use. Because of that we will probably go to Amsterdam in October (it would be mad not to use them).
    Can you ask for an extension of the voucher until next year?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited July 2020
    I think we're at the moment of a psychological crisis, in the sense of the psychology behind economics, as much as anything else.

    It had been largely expected that people would start to resume old habits once facilities were unlocked, but, so far at least, that's not happening on anything like the level anticipated. If this doesn't start to change, with an explosion of better weather and the advent of August as the beginning of a traditional spending splurge, we could be in for some very rocky times indeed ahead.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071

    I think we're at the moment of a psychological crisis, in the sense of the psychology behind economics, as much as anything else.

    It had been largely expected that people would start to resume old habits once facilities were unlocked, but, so far at least, that's not happening on anything like the level anticipated. If this doesn't start to change, with an explosion of better weather and August, we're in for some very rocky times ahead.

    What sort of things are you referring to? Going to the pub? Shopping on the high street?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Breaking 'the Right finding more stuff to get outraged about' news.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1281158449724887040?s=20

    It’s an odd thing to get upset about

    It is an artificial word chosen as the opposite of “blacklist” - which at least has some history.

    I think it’s silly that people get upset about the word as it clearly isn’t racist. But if they do, then find a new word (how about “Safelist”). No biggie.
    I hadn't known of the existence of the word 'whitelist' until I saw that tweet so am somewhat behind the curve at being upset at its banning.
    Same here. Never heard of it. So a choice now. I can mug up on it, maybe use it a few times, and then drop it under protest of "cancel culture". Or I can just not bother. Second seems more efficient but I do have time on my hands today.
    Obviously on its own its not a problem, its in the context of how much of our language re-enforces white as good and black as bad.

    Just off the top of my head

    White magic v Black magic
    White witch
    White lies
    Black sheep
    Blackball
    Blackmail
    Black mark
    Black death

    Even for new words like white hat hacker it is just assumed that white is good.

    Is it really so difficult to understand that if your group is treated negatively by society, then having language that re-enforces sub conscious biases isnt helpful?
    So ... what? We should rewrite our entire language - even including historical terms such as the Black Death, ffs! - just to appease the irrational obsessions of some perpetually-offended snowflakes? Thanks, but no thanks.
    Nobody is suggesting we rewrite our entire language including historical terms. Just some terms that are in daily usage are being phased out in favour of better ones. If that upsets you, then I suggest that you are the snowflake.
    Which would be as incorrect as the rest of your laughable suggestions. There is no right not to be offended.
    Nobody is saying there is a right not to be offended.

    There is however a common understanding amongst civilised people that they should be polite, and not deliberately rude.

    You seem to be want to be rude to prove a point. That makes you a dick.
    There is also a common understanding that ordinary language should not be effaced when its usage is - as you say - not deliberately rude: 'whitelist' is a good example of precisely that. You'll only find that rude or offensive if you are actively seeking to be offended.
    Whitelist/blacklist is offensive. It is literally saying white is good/allowed, black is bad/forbidden.

    If you're offended by using allowlist/blocklist instead then quit being a whinging snowflake and get over it.
    I didn’t even know there was such a thing as a whitelist
    It's a concept in computing to allow specifically listed entities access to a service.

    The whole debate is completely facile.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,698

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    Solve the health crisis, solve the economic crisis. They are conjoined.

    Indeed.

    The reality is the health crisis is going away in this country now which brings the economic crisis as the next step until people accept the health crisis has gone.

    Thankfully we aren't like in America.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    The poll seems to be showing that people don't really want to go anywhere. The aviation industry is fucked.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,932
    edited July 2020
    eek said:

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
    allowlist and denylist seem reasonable, if a bit awkward.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    Ah well. Ben Stokes is still in. I think.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,828

    I think we're at the moment of a psychological crisis, in the sense of the psychology behind economics, as much as anything else.

    It had been largely expected that people would start to resume old habits once facilities were unlocked, but, so far at least, that's not happening on anything like the level anticipated. If this doesn't start to change, with an explosion of better weather and August, we're in for some very rocky times ahead.

    I was speaking to a few friends and there's two competing things that are keeping people at home.

    1) Fear of getting the disease (or spreading it to someone you care about).

    2) Financial considerations (or the fear of finances getting worse)

    3) Lots of city centres are banning cars (Manchester and York in particular) so bars and restaurants can add outdoor seating. So the option of getting out means parking a few miles out of the city centre or use public transport.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    RobD said:

    eek said:

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
    allowlist and denylist seem reasonable, if a bit awkward.
    Some companies already use safelist/blocklist. I'm really not sure it makes much of a difference.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RobD said:

    eek said:

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
    allowlist and denylist seem reasonable, if a bit awkward.
    Not only are they reasonable but they also don't need explaining what they are whereas the first response to whitelist/blacklist if someone doesn't use those terms is "what do you mean?"
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 24,940
    edited July 2020
    FPT:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Breaking 'the Right finding more stuff to get outraged about' news.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1281158449724887040?s=20

    It’s an odd thing to get upset about

    It is an artificial word chosen as the opposite of “blacklist” - which at least has some history.

    I think it’s silly that people get upset about the word as it clearly isn’t racist. But if they do, then find a new word (how about “Safelist”). No biggie.
    I hadn't known of the existence of the word 'whitelist' until I saw that tweet so am somewhat behind the curve at being upset at its banning.
    Same here. Never heard of it. So a choice now. I can mug up on it, maybe use it a few times, and then drop it under protest of "cancel culture". Or I can just not bother. Second seems more efficient but I do have time on my hands today.
    Obviously on its own its not a problem, its in the context of how much of our language re-enforces white as good and black as bad.

    Just off the top of my head

    White magic v Black magic
    White witch
    White lies
    Black sheep
    Blackball
    Blackmail
    Black mark
    Black death

    Even for new words like white hat hacker it is just assumed that white is good.

    Is it really so difficult to understand that if your group is treated negatively by society, then having language that re-enforces sub conscious biases isnt helpful?
    So ... what? We should rewrite our entire language - even including historical terms such as the Black Death, ffs! - just to appease the irrational obsessions of some perpetually-offended snowflakes? Thanks, but no thanks.
    Nobody is suggesting we rewrite our entire language including historical terms. Just some terms that are in daily usage are being phased out in favour of better ones. If that upsets you, then I suggest that you are the snowflake.
    Which would be as incorrect as the rest of your laughable suggestions. There is no right not to be offended.
    Nobody is saying there is a right not to be offended.

    There is however a common understanding amongst civilised people that they should be polite, and not deliberately rude.

    You seem to be want to be rude to prove a point. That makes you a dick.
    It's a very similar situation to 'breast' and 'leg' of chicken changing in Victorian times to 'white meat' and 'drumstick'. There were probably some diehard 'breast and leggers' at the time who thought it was all rot and enjoyed shocking their more prudish children.

  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    Your way of 'arguing' is incredibly dense - what I have an emotional bond with is the principle that ordinary linguistic usages should not be effaced simply to pander to the offense-seeking of woke idiots. I know that you prefer mindless compliance with whatever the last person told you to say or not to say, but not everyone embraces unthinking orthodoxy with such gusto, I'm afraid.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited July 2020

    I think we're at the moment of a psychological crisis, in the sense of the psychology behind economics, as much as anything else.

    It had been largely expected that people would start to resume old habits once facilities were unlocked, but, so far at least, that's not happening on anything like the level anticipated. If this doesn't start to change, with an explosion of better weather and August, we're in for some very rocky times ahead.

    What sort of things are you referring to? Going to the pub? Shopping on the high street?
    Yes, all of these ; the traditional habits of socialising which people still seem to be cautiously ditching, as well as tourism and domestic travel, and all spending associated with leaving the house. This is affecting the whole of Europe, and beyond obviously, too.

    Summer hot weather might turn out to be very important in changing the economic psychology if we escape the worst end of predictions ; it makes sitting in the house continually almost insufferable, for a start, but it also tends to prime people into a more optimistic, outgoing and less risk-averse mood.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071

    I think we're at the moment of a psychological crisis, in the sense of the psychology behind economics, as much as anything else.

    It had been largely expected that people would start to resume old habits once facilities were unlocked, but, so far at least, that's not happening on anything like the level anticipated. If this doesn't start to change, with an explosion of better weather and August, we're in for some very rocky times ahead.

    I was speaking to a few friends and there's two competing things that are keeping people at home.

    1) Fear of getting the disease (or spreading it to someone you care about).

    2) Financial considerations (or the fear of finances getting worse)

    3) Lots of city centres are banning cars (Manchester and York in particular) so bars and restaurants can add outdoor seating. So the option of getting out means parking a few miles out of the city centre or use public transport.
    Imagine sitting outside to eat or drink in Manchester of all places!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    eek said:

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
    allowlist and denylist seem reasonable, if a bit awkward.
    Some companies already use safelist/blocklist. I'm really not sure it makes much of a difference.
    There's plenty of combinations. I like allowlist/blocklist.

    Really there's no reason not to change this at all. Its just simple decency this one.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,932
    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    eek said:

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
    allowlist and denylist seem reasonable, if a bit awkward.
    Some companies already use safelist/blocklist. I'm really not sure it makes much of a difference.
    No, and I wonder how many people actually feel offended by it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,330
    NHS England Hospital numbers out

    Headline - 22
    7 days - 17
    Yesterday 4

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision. Last 5 days included for completeness.

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    Your way of 'arguing' is incredibly dense - what I have an emotional bond with is the principle that ordinary linguistic usages should not be effaced simply to pander to the offense-seeking of woke idiots. I know that you prefer mindless compliance with whatever the last person told you to say or not to say, but not everyone embraces unthinking orthodoxy with such gusto, I'm afraid.
    As I've previously stated, I don't really care. I'll use whitelist, or blacklist, or allowlist, or blocklist. I don't care because it doesn't matter.

    It really seems to matter to you though and you should probably have a think why.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,828

    I think we're at the moment of a psychological crisis, in the sense of the psychology behind economics, as much as anything else.

    It had been largely expected that people would start to resume old habits once facilities were unlocked, but, so far at least, that's not happening on anything like the level anticipated. If this doesn't start to change, with an explosion of better weather and August, we're in for some very rocky times ahead.

    I was speaking to a few friends and there's two competing things that are keeping people at home.

    1) Fear of getting the disease (or spreading it to someone you care about).

    2) Financial considerations (or the fear of finances getting worse)

    3) Lots of city centres are banning cars (Manchester and York in particular) so bars and restaurants can add outdoor seating. So the option of getting out means parking a few miles out of the city centre or use public transport.
    Imagine sitting outside to eat or drink in Manchester of all places!
    Clearly you've never been to the wonderful Northern Quarter.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,359

    RobD said:

    eek said:

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
    allowlist and denylist seem reasonable, if a bit awkward.
    Not only are they reasonable but they also don't need explaining what they are whereas the first response to whitelist/blacklist if someone doesn't use those terms is "what do you mean?"
    I think most people intuitively know which is good and bad when introduced to whitelist and blacklist, that is the problem with them!
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    I think we're at the moment of a psychological crisis, in the sense of the psychology behind economics, as much as anything else.

    It had been largely expected that people would start to resume old habits once facilities were unlocked, but, so far at least, that's not happening on anything like the level anticipated. If this doesn't start to change, with an explosion of better weather and the advent of August as the beginning of a traditional spending splurge, we could be in for some very rocky times indeed ahead.

    I think we're at the moment of a psychological crisis, in the sense of the psychology behind economics, as much as anything else.

    It had been largely expected that people would start to resume old habits once facilities were unlocked, but, so far at least, that's not happening on anything like the level anticipated. If this doesn't start to change, with an explosion of better weather and the advent of August as the beginning of a traditional spending splurge, we could be in for some very rocky times indeed ahead.

    I watched three big red buses go past my study last night, in London. They were all completely empty. Like ghost buses. It was so striking it was eerie. We are meant to be unlockdowning, but we are, instead, psychologically still locked down.

    How long is this economically sustainable? A few weeks at most.Then parts of the city will start closing down, for good.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071

    I think we're at the moment of a psychological crisis, in the sense of the psychology behind economics, as much as anything else.

    It had been largely expected that people would start to resume old habits once facilities were unlocked, but, so far at least, that's not happening on anything like the level anticipated. If this doesn't start to change, with an explosion of better weather and August, we're in for some very rocky times ahead.

    What sort of things are you referring to? Going to the pub? Shopping on the high street?
    Yes, all of these ; the traditional habits of socialising which people still seem to be cautiously ditching, as well as tourism and domestic travel, and all spending associated with leaving the house. This is affecting the whole of Europe, and beyond obviously, too.

    Summer hot weather might turn out to be very important in changing the economic psychology if we escape the worst end of predictions ; it makes sitting in the house continually almost insufferable, for a start, but it also tends to prime people into a more optimistic and outgoing mood.
    I'm avoiding going shopping, to the pub, or a restaurant simply because social distancing is crap. I'd much rather just have friends round for coffee or beers.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346

    NHS England Hospital numbers out

    Headline - 22
    7 days - 17
    Yesterday 4

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision. Last 5 days included for completeness.

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    That must be the lowest number for a Thursday since Lockdown
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 24,940
    LadyG said:

    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    Ah well. Ben Stokes is still in. I think.

    As someone already mentioned, we have a huge tourism deficit. If all international tourism both ways stopped, the economy would benefit vastly.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,658
    I really couldn’t be bothered to go on holiday if there are a million COVIDrules and regulations to adhere to, hardly relaxing. Airports are a horror show at the best of times. Now they must be horrendous... and you can’t get a drink!
  • isamisam Posts: 40,658

    RobD said:

    eek said:

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
    allowlist and denylist seem reasonable, if a bit awkward.
    Not only are they reasonable but they also don't need explaining what they are whereas the first response to whitelist/blacklist if someone doesn't use those terms is "what do you mean?"
    I think most people intuitively know which is good and bad when introduced to whitelist and blacklist, that is the problem with them!
    I can’t imagine 5% of the country has heard of ‘whitelist’
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,359

    LadyG said:

    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    Ah well. Ben Stokes is still in. I think.

    As someone already mentioned, we have a huge tourism deficit. If all international tourism both ways stopped, the economy would benefit vastly.
    You are assuming people replace foreign holidays with domestic ones. I certainly wont be skiing in the Cairngorms this winter or seeking winter sun in Torquays finest hotels.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071
    isam said:

    RobD said:

    eek said:

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
    allowlist and denylist seem reasonable, if a bit awkward.
    Not only are they reasonable but they also don't need explaining what they are whereas the first response to whitelist/blacklist if someone doesn't use those terms is "what do you mean?"
    I think most people intuitively know which is good and bad when introduced to whitelist and blacklist, that is the problem with them!
    I can’t imagine 5% of the country has heard of ‘whitelist’
    and thus it can hardly be described as being part of our "cultural heritage".
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    Ah well. Ben Stokes is still in. I think.

    As someone already mentioned, we have a huge tourism deficit. If all international tourism both ways stopped, the economy would benefit vastly.
    The trouble is, I don't believe Brits staycationing will make up for lost foreign visitors, because hotels and restaurants are going to be unwelcoming places, with social distancing in operation.

    Some specific businesses will do well. Holiday lets in places like Cornwall. London hotels and restaurants will close down and not reopen.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    LadyG said:

    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    Ah well. Ben Stokes is still in. I think.

    If the whole world is in the same boat why don’t we just cancel all the debt and start afresh?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,658

    isam said:

    RobD said:

    eek said:

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
    allowlist and denylist seem reasonable, if a bit awkward.
    Not only are they reasonable but they also don't need explaining what they are whereas the first response to whitelist/blacklist if someone doesn't use those terms is "what do you mean?"
    I think most people intuitively know which is good and bad when introduced to whitelist and blacklist, that is the problem with them!
    I can’t imagine 5% of the country has heard of ‘whitelist’
    and thus it can hardly be described as being part of our "cultural heritage".
    Did someone say it was? Couldn’t agree with that
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    [snip]

    3) Lots of city centres are banning cars (Manchester and York in particular) so bars and restaurants can add outdoor seating. So the option of getting out means parking a few miles out of the city centre or use public transport.

    That's a good point. I'd be much more worried about using public transport than going to a well-managed restaurant or having a drink outside a bar.

    More generally, I suspect that the concerns indicated in this YouGov poll might dissipate quite quickly, if people start to hear of their friends and neighbours going out without ill effect.

    Meanwhile, tonight I'm attending a virtual black-tie* livery dinner, hosted on Zoom, complete with a meal delivered by the caterers to participants' homes, virtual tables so we can chat in groups, toasts, the beadle conducting the whole affair, etc etc. It sounds completely wacky. I shall report back...

    * I presume this phrase is still allowed?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    eek said:

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
    allowlist and denylist seem reasonable, if a bit awkward.
    Some companies already use safelist/blocklist. I'm really not sure it makes much of a difference.
    No, and I wonder how many people actually feel offended by it.
    I don't think anyone is offended by it tbh, it just seems like one of those "let's be seen to be doing something" responses which placate idiots. I'd rather that companies put anonymous job application processes in place which don't require racial backgrounds, sex or names to be known until the interview stage. That would be a really big step forwards, this is a nothing change that helps no one.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited July 2020

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    Your way of 'arguing' is incredibly dense - what I have an emotional bond with is the principle that ordinary linguistic usages should not be effaced simply to pander to the offense-seeking of woke idiots. I know that you prefer mindless compliance with whatever the last person told you to say or not to say, but not everyone embraces unthinking orthodoxy with such gusto, I'm afraid.
    As I've previously stated, I don't really care. I'll use whitelist, or blacklist, or allowlist, or blocklist. I don't care because it doesn't matter.

    It really seems to matter to you though and you should probably have a think why.
    I just explained why it matters. There's an entire global movement busy effacing or censoring monuments and cancelling historical figures on solipsistic grounds. Now they're moving effortlessly on to the heart of culture: language, books, art, authors, academics, public figures, films etc. I think they should be resisted, others will just lie down in front of their cultural steamroller for the sake of a quiet life. Your choice; others will make their own.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    isam said:

    I really couldn’t be bothered to go on holiday if there are a million COVIDrules and regulations to adhere to, hardly relaxing. Airports are a horror show at the best of times. Now they must be horrendous... and you can’t get a drink!

    The pubs in the airports are open again aiui!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,359
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    Ah well. Ben Stokes is still in. I think.

    As someone already mentioned, we have a huge tourism deficit. If all international tourism both ways stopped, the economy would benefit vastly.
    The trouble is, I don't believe Brits staycationing will make up for lost foreign visitors, because hotels and restaurants are going to be unwelcoming places, with social distancing in operation.

    Some specific businesses will do well. Holiday lets in places like Cornwall. London hotels and restaurants will close down and not reopen.
    Fewer airbnbs in London might help a few more people buy a house (well a tiny box) here. Always look on the bright side.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited July 2020

    I think we're at the moment of a psychological crisis, in the sense of the psychology behind economics, as much as anything else.

    It had been largely expected that people would start to resume old habits once facilities were unlocked, but, so far at least, that's not happening on anything like the level anticipated. If this doesn't start to change, with an explosion of better weather and August, we're in for some very rocky times ahead.

    What sort of things are you referring to? Going to the pub? Shopping on the high street?
    Yes, all of these ; the traditional habits of socialising which people still seem to be cautiously ditching, as well as tourism and domestic travel, and all spending associated with leaving the house. This is affecting the whole of Europe, and beyond obviously, too.

    Summer hot weather might turn out to be very important in changing the economic psychology if we escape the worst end of predictions ; it makes sitting in the house continually almost insufferable, for a start, but it also tends to prime people into a more optimistic and outgoing mood.
    I'm avoiding going shopping, to the pub, or a restaurant simply because social distancing is crap. I'd much rather just have friends round for coffee or beers.
    This is where blazing hot weather may be the only saviour and solution , for now. It was more busy in my area a couple of weeks ago, before the unlocking, with hundreds of people drinking outside unofficially opened pubs, than after the official reopening.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,147
    The biggest gap is with France which in normal times is the UK favourite travel destination. As can be seen 21% of Brits would consider going to France compared with just 5% of French people ready to consider coming in the other direction.

    I don't think this is useful at all. The more pertinent stat is that 80% of French who would consider coming here won't because of COVID-19. The equivalent figure for Brits thinking of going to France is 66%. So there is a gap, but it's perhaps not quite as dramatic as the figures cited above.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071

    [snip]

    3) Lots of city centres are banning cars (Manchester and York in particular) so bars and restaurants can add outdoor seating. So the option of getting out means parking a few miles out of the city centre or use public transport.

    That's a good point. I'd be much more worried about using public transport than going to a well-managed restaurant or having a drink outside a bar.

    More generally, I suspect that the concerns indicated in this YouGov poll might dissipate quite quickly, if people start to hear of their friends and neighbours going out without ill effect.

    Meanwhile, tonight I'm attending a virtual black-tie* livery dinner, hosted on Zoom, complete with a meal delivered by the caterers to participants' homes, virtual tables so we can chat in groups, toasts, the beadle conducting the whole affair, etc etc. It sounds completely wacky. I shall report back...

    * I presume this phrase is still allowed?
    Come on @Richard_Nabavi you're better than this. This is on the same level as the sh*te you see Tommy Robinson supporters go on about: "can't say you're English anymore without being arrested har har".
  • isamisam Posts: 40,658
    edited July 2020
    Is snooker racist?

    You get maximum points for potting the black, but do the same to the white and you get punished
  • The current Labour strategy seems to be consolidating around 40% and hoping the Tory support drops over time. Risky.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,739
    isam said:

    I really couldn’t be bothered to go on holiday if there are a million COVIDrules and regulations to adhere to, hardly relaxing. Airports are a horror show at the best of times. Now they must be horrendous... and you can’t get a drink!

    Flying with a mask and no bloody mary and nuts does not appeal.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,845
    LadyG said:

    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    It'll be worth it as long as Johnson gets the blame.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,775

    I tell you what we do need a word for.

    The sadness that follows the happiness when you order something wonderful and then discover it is going to be delivered either by Yodel or Hermes.

    This morning there was an unmarked delivery van going down the road dropping off Amazon packages. Whether this is an entrepreneurial startup delivery service taking advantage of the boom in online shopping, or a new security measure, I could not say.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071
    edited July 2020

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    Your way of 'arguing' is incredibly dense - what I have an emotional bond with is the principle that ordinary linguistic usages should not be effaced simply to pander to the offense-seeking of woke idiots. I know that you prefer mindless compliance with whatever the last person told you to say or not to say, but not everyone embraces unthinking orthodoxy with such gusto, I'm afraid.
    As I've previously stated, I don't really care. I'll use whitelist, or blacklist, or allowlist, or blocklist. I don't care because it doesn't matter.

    It really seems to matter to you though and you should probably have a think why.
    I just explained why it matters. There's an entire global movement busy effacing or censoring monuments and cancelling historical figures on solipsistic grounds. Now they're moving effortlessly on to the heart of culture: language, books, art, authors, academics, public figures, films etc. I think they should be resisted, others will just lie down in front of their cultural steamroller for the sake of a quiet life. Your choice; others will make their own.
    If you actually paid attention to what I write instead of dismissing it all as "woke nonsense" you would know that I have continuously opposed the removal of monuments and the "cancelling" of historical figures.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,330

    I tell you what we do need a word for.

    The sadness that follows the happiness when you order something wonderful and then discover it is going to be delivered either by Yodel or Hermes.

    Or DPD....
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    edited July 2020
    Two things...

    First - we have spent years sending signals that we do not want people to come here - Brexit, Boris's UKIP-lite Party, COVID cockups, etc. Are we really surprised at having succeeded?

    Secondly - restarting the economy - for some people, the fear factor has been instilled into them so effectively that they are actually afraid to go out or interact with others. One man I know treats people like they have Ebola. He will not, under any circumstances, go with 3 or 4 metres of other people. I have seen him walk back the way he came and wait in a garden or doorway until other people go away. He is not the only one. I spoke to a rather nervous lady who was at the supermarket for the first time in 3 months because they had ate all the "stockpile". She was buying the next stockpile...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,828

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    Your way of 'arguing' is incredibly dense - what I have an emotional bond with is the principle that ordinary linguistic usages should not be effaced simply to pander to the offense-seeking of woke idiots. I know that you prefer mindless compliance with whatever the last person told you to say or not to say, but not everyone embraces unthinking orthodoxy with such gusto, I'm afraid.
    As I've previously stated, I don't really care. I'll use whitelist, or blacklist, or allowlist, or blocklist. I don't care because it doesn't matter.

    It really seems to matter to you though and you should probably have a think why.
    I just explained why it matters. There's an entire global movement busy effacing or censoring monuments and cancelling historical figures on solipsistic grounds. Now they're moving effortlessly on to the heart of culture: language, books, art, authors, academics, public figures, films etc. I think they should be resisted, others will just lie down in front of their cultural steamroller for the sake of a quiet life. Your choice; others will make their own.
    I guess you must fume at things like 'And Then There Were None' as the new name for an Agatha Christie novel.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,885
    edited July 2020

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    eek said:

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
    allowlist and denylist seem reasonable, if a bit awkward.
    Some companies already use safelist/blocklist. I'm really not sure it makes much of a difference.
    There's plenty of combinations. I like allowlist/blocklist.

    Really there's no reason not to change this at all. Its just simple decency this one.
    How would you phrase the legal instrument and what would be the penalties for disobeying?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 24,940

    LadyG said:

    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    Ah well. Ben Stokes is still in. I think.

    As someone already mentioned, we have a huge tourism deficit. If all international tourism both ways stopped, the economy would benefit vastly.
    You are assuming people replace foreign holidays with domestic ones. I certainly wont be skiing in the Cairngorms this winter or seeking winter sun in Torquays finest hotels.
    Yes, I am assuming people would still want a change of scene and not to do the cooking and cleaning for a week or two. If this scenario ever came about it might be worth consulting your spouse before sulking at home...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071

    I tell you what we do need a word for.

    The sadness that follows the happiness when you order something wonderful and then discover it is going to be delivered either by Yodel or Hermes.

    Or DPD....
    I've had quite a few things delivered by DPD the last week and they've been great. I get a 1 hour window early in the morning, and even the name of the chap who's delivering my gear.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    eek said:

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    My only problem with the words blacklist / whitelist is finding replacements that don't cause bigger issues during development.
    allowlist and denylist seem reasonable, if a bit awkward.
    Some companies already use safelist/blocklist. I'm really not sure it makes much of a difference.
    There's plenty of combinations. I like allowlist/blocklist.

    Really there's no reason not to change this at all. Its just simple decency this one.
    How would you phrase the legal instrument and what would be the penalties for disobeying?
    What legal instrument?

    Common decency doesn't require a legal instrument.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,828

    I tell you what we do need a word for.

    The sadness that follows the happiness when you order something wonderful and then discover it is going to be delivered either by Yodel or Hermes.

    Or DPD....
    I've never had a problem with DPD, they've always been brilliant for me.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    I tell you what we do need a word for.

    The sadness that follows the happiness when you order something wonderful and then discover it is going to be delivered either by Yodel or Hermes.

    This morning there was an unmarked delivery van going down the road dropping off Amazon packages. Whether this is an entrepreneurial startup delivery service taking advantage of the boom in online shopping, or a new security measure, I could not say.
    They use local subcontractors, don't they?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I tell you what we do need a word for.

    The sadness that follows the happiness when you order something wonderful and then discover it is going to be delivered either by Yodel or Hermes.

    Or DPD....
    You're the first person I've ever heard list DPD as a bad one.

    I love DPD. I'd rather DPD than the Royal Mail, its my favourite one to get a delivery from. Their live tracking is fantastic.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,828

    I tell you what we do need a word for.

    The sadness that follows the happiness when you order something wonderful and then discover it is going to be delivered either by Yodel or Hermes.

    This morning there was an unmarked delivery van going down the road dropping off Amazon packages. Whether this is an entrepreneurial startup delivery service taking advantage of the boom in online shopping, or a new security measure, I could not say.
    For the last several years all my Amazon deliveries have arrived in unmarked white vans.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,739
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    Ah well. Ben Stokes is still in. I think.

    When do you see me offering up an arm and getting that shot of vaccine?

    Next year Q2?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071
    edited July 2020

    I tell you what we do need a word for.

    The sadness that follows the happiness when you order something wonderful and then discover it is going to be delivered either by Yodel or Hermes.

    This morning there was an unmarked delivery van going down the road dropping off Amazon packages. Whether this is an entrepreneurial startup delivery service taking advantage of the boom in online shopping, or a new security measure, I could not say.
    For the last several years all my Amazon deliveries have arrived in unmarked white vans.
    Mine come in the back of old Volvo estates or Citroen Picassos.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 362

    I think we're at the moment of a psychological crisis, in the sense of the psychology behind economics, as much as anything else.

    It is a psychological crisis, and this is quite independent of whether COVID cases happen to be rising or falling at the moment. People are just not used to the idea that everything that is familiar to them can be taken away by an "act of God" at any moment, not just from them personally but from the whole of humanity. And yet coronavirus is at the lower end of the scale where disasters are concerned.

    There could be an epidemic of a virus with a high mortality rate. Even worse, suddenly astronomers could find a comet is going to hit the Earth in six months time and that will end civilization and there is nothing we can do about it. Disasters are inevitable and it is only a matter of time before the next one comes.

    However our society is just not geared up to cope with major disasters. If the comet does hit and we are not extinct, civilization will return within a few thousand years. In the present day, things will get better but they could get worse first.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    nichomar said:

    LadyG said:

    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    Ah well. Ben Stokes is still in. I think.

    If the whole world is in the same boat why don’t we just cancel all the debt and start afresh?
    Certainly, much of the western world is in the same boat.

    France, Spain, Italy and the UK are all expected to suffer a GDP contraction of ~10% this year.

    For comparison, the UK economy shrank by ~6% in the Great Depression of the 1930s.

    The only real comparison is a war/another plague. UK GDP dwindled by ~10% from 1919-1921

  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited July 2020

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    Your way of 'arguing' is incredibly dense - what I have an emotional bond with is the principle that ordinary linguistic usages should not be effaced simply to pander to the offense-seeking of woke idiots. I know that you prefer mindless compliance with whatever the last person told you to say or not to say, but not everyone embraces unthinking orthodoxy with such gusto, I'm afraid.
    As I've previously stated, I don't really care. I'll use whitelist, or blacklist, or allowlist, or blocklist. I don't care because it doesn't matter.

    It really seems to matter to you though and you should probably have a think why.
    I just explained why it matters. There's an entire global movement busy effacing or censoring monuments and cancelling historical figures on solipsistic grounds. Now they're moving effortlessly on to the heart of culture: language, books, art, authors, academics, public figures, films etc. I think they should be resisted, others will just lie down in front of their cultural steamroller for the sake of a quiet life. Your choice; others will make their own.
    If you actually paid attention to what I write instead of dismissing it all as "woke nonsense" you would know that I have continuously opposed the removal of monuments and the "cancelling" of historical figures.
    Then you should appreciate that all these activities do not exist in isolation from one another, but are all part of a continuous spectrum, with the same ideology motivating them all. I entirely agree that the fate of one word or one statue is unimportant and can always be justified in one way or another - the point is that it's an incremental, salami-slicing technique to get people used to much more pervasive changes because 'Well, we got rid of those words and no one cared, so why should they care when we do X Y Z...'
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,885
    isam said:

    I really couldn’t be bothered to go on holiday if there are a million COVIDrules and regulations to adhere to, hardly relaxing. Airports are a horror show at the best of times. Now they must be horrendous... and you can’t get a drink!

    Here's a moral conundrum for you - I booked (ages ago) to go to Greece on July 19th for a week. Four days after Greece is expected to let flights from the UK resume.

    Greece's policy is to randomly test arrivals and, if they are found to be positive, to send them for 14 days to a "Quarantine Hotel".

    So the gamble is go, test negative, have holiday all good; or go, test positive, not only not have holiday but be banged up in some Greek run hostel with food shoved under your door for two weeks.

    Would you roll the dice?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    I tell you what we do need a word for.

    The sadness that follows the happiness when you order something wonderful and then discover it is going to be delivered either by Yodel or Hermes.

    This morning there was an unmarked delivery van going down the road dropping off Amazon packages. Whether this is an entrepreneurial startup delivery service taking advantage of the boom in online shopping, or a new security measure, I could not say.
    For the last several years all my Amazon deliveries have arrived in unmarked white vans whose paint reflects all optical frequencies equally.
    There you go... fixed! ;)

    :D:D:D
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,932

    The current Labour strategy seems to be consolidating around 40% and hoping the Tory support drops over time. Risky.

    But it might be enough, especially if the LDs take seats from the Tories.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,359

    LadyG said:

    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    Ah well. Ben Stokes is still in. I think.

    As someone already mentioned, we have a huge tourism deficit. If all international tourism both ways stopped, the economy would benefit vastly.
    You are assuming people replace foreign holidays with domestic ones. I certainly wont be skiing in the Cairngorms this winter or seeking winter sun in Torquays finest hotels.
    Yes, I am assuming people would still want a change of scene and not to do the cooking and cleaning for a week or two. If this scenario ever came about it might be worth consulting your spouse before sulking at home...
    Im up for weekends away in the UK, maybe even a week to practise a skill or sport but for longer holidays would either go abroad or wait.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,885

    I tell you what we do need a word for.

    The sadness that follows the happiness when you order something wonderful and then discover it is going to be delivered either by Yodel or Hermes.

    I think all the delivery companies have been amazing during lockdown. Super efficient and on time. Haven't had a bad experience and I've done my fair share of lockdown spending.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    LadyG said:

    nichomar said:

    LadyG said:

    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    Ah well. Ben Stokes is still in. I think.

    If the whole world is in the same boat why don’t we just cancel all the debt and start afresh?
    Certainly, much of the western world is in the same boat.

    France, Spain, Italy and the UK are all expected to suffer a GDP contraction of ~10% this year.

    For comparison, the UK economy shrank by ~6% in the Great Depression of the 1930s.

    The only real comparison is a war/another plague. UK GDP dwindled by ~10% from 1919-1921

    We've got the UK at -7% without a vaccine fwiw, I think that's probably about right. With a vaccine it's -1% on the basis that the UK, Europe and the US are able complete mass vaccination programmes by the end of the year.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,191

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    Your way of 'arguing' is incredibly dense - what I have an emotional bond with is the principle that ordinary linguistic usages should not be effaced simply to pander to the offense-seeking of woke idiots. I know that you prefer mindless compliance with whatever the last person told you to say or not to say, but not everyone embraces unthinking orthodoxy with such gusto, I'm afraid.
    As I've previously stated, I don't really care. I'll use whitelist, or blacklist, or allowlist, or blocklist. I don't care because it doesn't matter.

    It really seems to matter to you though and you should probably have a think why.
    I just explained why it matters. There's an entire global movement busy effacing or censoring monuments and cancelling historical figures on solipsistic grounds. Now they're moving effortlessly on to the heart of culture: language, books, art, authors, academics, public figures, films etc. I think they should be resisted, others will just lie down in front of their cultural steamroller for the sake of a quiet life. Your choice; others will make their own.
    I guess you must fume at things like 'And Then There Were None' as the new name for an Agatha Christie novel.
    Is it still possible to read The Nigger of the Narcissus without being hissed at?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I really couldn’t be bothered to go on holiday if there are a million COVIDrules and regulations to adhere to, hardly relaxing. Airports are a horror show at the best of times. Now they must be horrendous... and you can’t get a drink!

    Here's a moral conundrum for you - I booked (ages ago) to go to Greece on July 19th for a week. Four days after Greece is expected to let flights from the UK resume.

    Greece's policy is to randomly test arrivals and, if they are found to be positive, to send them for 14 days to a "Quarantine Hotel".

    So the gamble is go, test negative, have holiday all good; or go, test positive, not only not have holiday but be banged up in some Greek run hostel with food shoved under your door for two weeks.

    Would you roll the dice?
    Not in any way.
  • My partner and I will be doing our bit for the global economy by going to Barcelona for a long weekend shortly. Will be interesting to see what it is like
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,932
    Scott_xP said:
    So that's four or five pubs out of how many?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,658
    Two years ago was the 50th anniversary of Enoch Powell’s most famous speech, and a few newspapers/magazines (Independent/New Statesman) took the opportunity to say that his prediction of a country divided along racial lines had been proven completely wrong by the effortless way different races lived peacefully alongside each other in modern Britain.

    Given the BLM people seem to think the complete opposite, do you think they were right to say so?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/enoch-powell-speech-bbc-radio-4-how-wrong-he-was-a8303416.html

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/04/british-public-proved-enoch-powell-wrong-low-bar-jump
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,330

    I tell you what we do need a word for.

    The sadness that follows the happiness when you order something wonderful and then discover it is going to be delivered either by Yodel or Hermes.

    This morning there was an unmarked delivery van going down the road dropping off Amazon packages. Whether this is an entrepreneurial startup delivery service taking advantage of the boom in online shopping, or a new security measure, I could not say.
    For the last several years all my Amazon deliveries have arrived in unmarked white vans.
    Mine come in the back of old Volvo estates or Citroen Picassos.
    Several companies around where I live, before COVID at least, distribute their packages for delivery locally from the back of a big lorry to part time workers. Who carry them them last mile.

    So I had packages delivered by people I vaguely knew, from the back of Tesla X. Housewives making money after the school run....
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820



    Is it still possible to read The Nigger of the Narcissus without being hissed at?

    It's a bloody good book, so I hope so.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,916
    Isn't this going to be a common finding across nations?

    "We want to go on holiday. We don't want foreigners bringing in cases of the disease."

    This is strangely reminiscent of the shock polling on the last thread which reveals people support tax cuts that do apply to them, and tax rises which do not.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,885

    [snip]

    3) Lots of city centres are banning cars (Manchester and York in particular) so bars and restaurants can add outdoor seating. So the option of getting out means parking a few miles out of the city centre or use public transport.

    That's a good point. I'd be much more worried about using public transport than going to a well-managed restaurant or having a drink outside a bar.

    More generally, I suspect that the concerns indicated in this YouGov poll might dissipate quite quickly, if people start to hear of their friends and neighbours going out without ill effect.

    Meanwhile, tonight I'm attending a virtual black-tie* livery dinner, hosted on Zoom, complete with a meal delivered by the caterers to participants' homes, virtual tables so we can chat in groups, toasts, the beadle conducting the whole affair, etc etc. It sounds completely wacky. I shall report back...

    * I presume this phrase is still allowed?
    Fantastic I am assuming they will deliver the six dozen-odd knives, forks, and spoons to you beforehand so you can be fully prepared.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    Your way of 'arguing' is incredibly dense - what I have an emotional bond with is the principle that ordinary linguistic usages should not be effaced simply to pander to the offense-seeking of woke idiots. I know that you prefer mindless compliance with whatever the last person told you to say or not to say, but not everyone embraces unthinking orthodoxy with such gusto, I'm afraid.
    As I've previously stated, I don't really care. I'll use whitelist, or blacklist, or allowlist, or blocklist. I don't care because it doesn't matter.

    It really seems to matter to you though and you should probably have a think why.
    I just explained why it matters. There's an entire global movement busy effacing or censoring monuments and cancelling historical figures on solipsistic grounds. Now they're moving effortlessly on to the heart of culture: language, books, art, authors, academics, public figures, films etc. I think they should be resisted, others will just lie down in front of their cultural steamroller for the sake of a quiet life. Your choice; others will make their own.
    If you actually paid attention to what I write instead of dismissing it all as "woke nonsense" you would know that I have continuously opposed the removal of monuments and the "cancelling" of historical figures.
    Then you should appreciate that all these activities do not exist in isolation from one another, but are all part of a continuous spectrum, with the same ideology motivating them all. I entirely agree that the fate of one word or one statue is unimportant and can always be justified in one way or another - the point is that it's an incremental, salami-slicing technique to get people used to much more pervasive changes because 'Well, we got rid of those words and no one cared, so why should they care when we do X Y Z...'
    So if I were to call you a c**t would you be OK with that?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,330
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So that's four or five pubs out of how many?
    Hang on, I thought trying to trace customers in pubs wasn't going to work, since they would all sign in as M. Mouse Esq?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,885

    I tell you what we do need a word for.

    The sadness that follows the happiness when you order something wonderful and then discover it is going to be delivered either by Yodel or Hermes.

    This morning there was an unmarked delivery van going down the road dropping off Amazon packages. Whether this is an entrepreneurial startup delivery service taking advantage of the boom in online shopping, or a new security measure, I could not say.
    For the last several years all my Amazon deliveries have arrived in unmarked white vans whose paint reflects all optical frequencies equally.
    There you go... fixed! ;)

    :D:D:D
    :smile:

    But oh god yes. Gives White Van Man a whole new, er, complexion!!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,885

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I really couldn’t be bothered to go on holiday if there are a million COVIDrules and regulations to adhere to, hardly relaxing. Airports are a horror show at the best of times. Now they must be horrendous... and you can’t get a drink!

    Here's a moral conundrum for you - I booked (ages ago) to go to Greece on July 19th for a week. Four days after Greece is expected to let flights from the UK resume.

    Greece's policy is to randomly test arrivals and, if they are found to be positive, to send them for 14 days to a "Quarantine Hotel".

    So the gamble is go, test negative, have holiday all good; or go, test positive, not only not have holiday but be banged up in some Greek run hostel with food shoved under your door for two weeks.

    Would you roll the dice?
    Not in any way.
    Noted. But you are presumably fit and healthy now? And you have said how you haven't exposed yourself to risk? So.....???
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,828

    It's really cute that @BluestBlue seems to have an emotional cultural bond with the word "blacklist". Really demonstrates that they should probably get out more, or get a hobby.

    It's just as bad as those who seem to have an obsession with Rachel Riley or JK Rowling. They need to get out more and get a grip.

    Your way of 'arguing' is incredibly dense - what I have an emotional bond with is the principle that ordinary linguistic usages should not be effaced simply to pander to the offense-seeking of woke idiots. I know that you prefer mindless compliance with whatever the last person told you to say or not to say, but not everyone embraces unthinking orthodoxy with such gusto, I'm afraid.
    As I've previously stated, I don't really care. I'll use whitelist, or blacklist, or allowlist, or blocklist. I don't care because it doesn't matter.

    It really seems to matter to you though and you should probably have a think why.
    I just explained why it matters. There's an entire global movement busy effacing or censoring monuments and cancelling historical figures on solipsistic grounds. Now they're moving effortlessly on to the heart of culture: language, books, art, authors, academics, public figures, films etc. I think they should be resisted, others will just lie down in front of their cultural steamroller for the sake of a quiet life. Your choice; others will make their own.
    I guess you must fume at things like 'And Then There Were None' as the new name for an Agatha Christie novel.
    Is it still possible to read The Nigger of the Narcissus without being hissed at?
    Nope, you have to call it A Tale of the Forecastle or something else in America.

    I read many years ago when the FBI were tracking a white supremacist group they used to refer to the title of the book as a euphemism for assaulting African Americans.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2020
    TOPPING said:

    [snip]

    3) Lots of city centres are banning cars (Manchester and York in particular) so bars and restaurants can add outdoor seating. So the option of getting out means parking a few miles out of the city centre or use public transport.

    That's a good point. I'd be much more worried about using public transport than going to a well-managed restaurant or having a drink outside a bar.

    More generally, I suspect that the concerns indicated in this YouGov poll might dissipate quite quickly, if people start to hear of their friends and neighbours going out without ill effect.

    Meanwhile, tonight I'm attending a virtual black-tie* livery dinner, hosted on Zoom, complete with a meal delivered by the caterers to participants' homes, virtual tables so we can chat in groups, toasts, the beadle conducting the whole affair, etc etc. It sounds completely wacky. I shall report back...

    * I presume this phrase is still allowed?
    Fantastic I am assuming they will deliver the six dozen-odd knives, forks, and spoons to you beforehand so you can be fully prepared.
    I was rather hoping they'd send a waiter to serve us, but it turns out that the beadle will let us know when it's time to put the lamb shank in the oven to heat up, and we'll have to serve ourselves.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071
    On taxation: my instinct is that it should be agreed as widely as possible, as a society, what a fair tax system looks like, and at what point, if any, higher earners pay more. Then any tax rise (or cut) should be applied equally across everyone (as a percentage).

    I know this is more difficult than tinkering around the edges but surely it's the most sustainable solution.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,650
    Scott_xP said:
    I suppose pub crawls will be less popular now.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,658
    MaxPB said:

    isam said:

    I really couldn’t be bothered to go on holiday if there are a million COVIDrules and regulations to adhere to, hardly relaxing. Airports are a horror show at the best of times. Now they must be horrendous... and you can’t get a drink!

    The pubs in the airports are open again aiui!
    Oh goodo. I don’t think I’ve ever been on a plane without a few drinks inside me. Both foreign holidays cancelled this summer though
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,932

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So that's four or five pubs out of how many?
    Hang on, I thought trying to trace customers in pubs wasn't going to work, since they would all sign in as M. Mouse Esq?
    Probably some did, but I suspect the majority do it properly.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 26,903
    Had planned to drive to Spain for our usual 2 weeks near my wife's family in Alicante. Scrapped that a while back - even if the borders are open there's no guarantee a flare up won't abruptly close them, and FIL is immuno compromised so bringing the English Pox with us not a good idea.

    We may do a week in Scotland to see my brother & his lot. If the borders are open! This year is a write off for so many things and holidays abroad is no exception (albeit we were in Spain for February half term).
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    I think we're at the moment of a psychological crisis, in the sense of the psychology behind economics, as much as anything else.

    It had been largely expected that people would start to resume old habits once facilities were unlocked, but, so far at least, that's not happening on anything like the level anticipated. If this doesn't start to change, with an explosion of better weather and August, we're in for some very rocky times ahead.

    What sort of things are you referring to? Going to the pub? Shopping on the high street?
    Yes, all of these ; the traditional habits of socialising which people still seem to be cautiously ditching, as well as tourism and domestic travel, and all spending associated with leaving the house. This is affecting the whole of Europe, and beyond obviously, too.

    Summer hot weather might turn out to be very important in changing the economic psychology if we escape the worst end of predictions ; it makes sitting in the house continually almost insufferable, for a start, but it also tends to prime people into a more optimistic and outgoing mood.
    I'm avoiding going shopping, to the pub, or a restaurant simply because social distancing is crap. I'd much rather just have friends round for coffee or beers.
    Yes I am exactly the same.
    I guess millions are doing the same, which will alter how the economy works at least in the short term.
    Hard for the government to change from, stay at home, be safe.
    To get out and spend to safe the economy.
    For many a tenner of your meal , is not worth the risk.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,165
    LadyG said:

    nichomar said:

    LadyG said:

    The tourist industry is almost 10% of the UK's GDP. It provides 3.8m jobs.

    Much of this will survive as domestic tourism benefits from Brits staycationing.
    But much of this will also go. Foreign tourists are crucial to London, in particular.

    It's going to be carnage, unless we get a vaccine/treatments very soon. We could see 15% unemployment and a wartime-scale deficit. Britain will be like Greece after the Great Recession, except worse, because the whole world will be in a slump, as demand crashes everywhere.

    Ah well. Ben Stokes is still in. I think.

    If the whole world is in the same boat why don’t we just cancel all the debt and start afresh?
    Certainly, much of the western world is in the same boat.

    France, Spain, Italy and the UK are all expected to suffer a GDP contraction of ~10% this year.

    For comparison, the UK economy shrank by ~6% in the Great Depression of the 1930s.

    The only real comparison is a war/another plague. UK GDP dwindled by ~10% from 1919-1921

    Roll on the roaring 20s.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,071
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I really couldn’t be bothered to go on holiday if there are a million COVIDrules and regulations to adhere to, hardly relaxing. Airports are a horror show at the best of times. Now they must be horrendous... and you can’t get a drink!

    Here's a moral conundrum for you - I booked (ages ago) to go to Greece on July 19th for a week. Four days after Greece is expected to let flights from the UK resume.

    Greece's policy is to randomly test arrivals and, if they are found to be positive, to send them for 14 days to a "Quarantine Hotel".

    So the gamble is go, test negative, have holiday all good; or go, test positive, not only not have holiday but be banged up in some Greek run hostel with food shoved under your door for two weeks.

    Would you roll the dice?
    Not in any way.
    Noted. But you are presumably fit and healthy now? And you have said how you haven't exposed yourself to risk? So.....???
    I'm moderate risk (on immune suppression) but have been frequenting supermarkets and have even been dating (with the lack of social distancing that entails). So I guess I have been exposing myself to risk.

    Regardless I wouldn't gamble with flying 3 hours to be banged up in a Greek hostel for two weeks.
This discussion has been closed.