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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Is Johnson really going to stick it out as PM till the next ge

SystemSystem Posts: 11,015
edited July 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Is Johnson really going to stick it out as PM till the next general election?

In his column in the Times this morning about the rise of Rishi Sunak Times writer Iain Martin makes the following astute observation about Boris’s career plans:

Read the full story here

«134567

Comments

  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,882
    No
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,552
    Second! And Maybe.

    As mentioned (by yours truly) previous thread, there are some interesting similarities between Boris Johnson & Jeremy Corbyn

    > both stormy petrels, loved by some sections of their party & public but loathed by others.

    > both emerged as leader of their party due mostly to failings & shortcomings of others.

    > each did much better at their first general election as party leader than forecast just months before.

    > each began falling in the polls soon after their initial electoral success (relative in Corbyn's case, absolute for Johnson).

    JC's trajectory we know - strait down & out into the dustbin of history. BJ's path is still before him, but at this stage, certainly does NOT look like the Yellow Brick Road.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,500
    edited July 2020
    In the context of that question, there’s a paper out following up some of those hospitalise months ago in a Italy.
    Johnson seems to show signs of dyspnea, one of the more prevalent continuing symptoms.
    https://twitter.com/DrTomFrieden/status/1281333800312745986
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good morning, everyone.

    He'll want to. He shouldn't.

    F1: heavy rain still a possibility for qualifying. Something to bear in mind.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256
    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,970
    Morning all! Prospects of play look good at Southampton. Could;d well have recreational cricket back soon, too.

    Although I'm by no means convinced that GB is 'safe'. Even though the number of cases locally doesn't seem high.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,708
    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    We do seem to have failed to utilise enough of our resources effectively whether it is the 750k volunteers, 2m local govt staff or the thousands of empty buildings. Lack of imagination? Distrust of localism? Power to be held on to by the centre? Incompetence?
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I believe this is the House by-election that got @MrEd confident about Trump doing well.

    On the night the GOP candidate was ahead by 40 points, indeed that's what Wikipedia lists but all the votes have not been counted this is 2018 mid terms all over again.

    Whilst the Dem candidate won't win it is far closer than has been made out. This is what November is going to be like.

    https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1281389586757963781?s=19
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    edited July 2020

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    We do seem to have failed to utilise enough of our resources effectively whether it is the 750k volunteers, 2m local govt staff or the thousands of empty buildings. Lack of imagination? Distrust of localism? Power to be held on to by the centre? Incompetence?
    Or laziness. It is always easier to start with a blank piece of paper and come up with your Master Plan than it is to put some effort into learning how the system already works and having to adapt to others.

    In my opinion, our current govt is incompetent. That is why we have so many dead, an economy going down the plughole and an international reputation that is in tatters.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Yes.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    If that was his "dream" then he is an idiot. Why try to become someone else? You just get measured against them and so you can never succeed on your own terms. Oscar Wilde had it exactly right when he said "Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken"
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,970
    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    I'm having a depressing morning; just maybe PM Johnson thinks that Churchill had setbacks at first and eventually, rose above them, therefore so will he.
    What finally brought the US into the war was the incredibly ill-advised Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour; I suspect that PM Johnson is expecting for the equivalent assistance.
    What that can or will be I suspect that neither he nor I have the slightest idea. January 21's trade going smoothly perhaps?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    F1: another race may be on the calendar:
    https://twitter.com/Motorsport/status/1281164198714716160
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    Probably because the people who work for councils are right duffers.
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    edited July 2020

    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    I'm having a depressing morning; just maybe PM Johnson thinks that Churchill had setbacks at first and eventually, rose above them, therefore so will he.
    What finally brought the US into the war was the incredibly ill-advised Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour; I suspect that PM Johnson is expecting for the equivalent assistance.
    What that can or will be I suspect that neither he nor I have the slightest idea. January 21's trade going smoothly perhaps?
    Have a nice coffee with some chocolate, or some tea, toast and marmalade and curl up somewhere warm with a nice view or a good book and forget mini-Trump.

    Besides, the fan-boys will be getting up soon and will be here to assure us that disaster is success, failure is achievement and that all is peachy :D:D:D
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Alistair said:

    I believe this is the House by-election that got @MrEd confident about Trump doing well.

    On the night the GOP candidate was ahead by 40 points, indeed that's what Wikipedia lists but all the votes have not been counted this is 2018 mid terms all over again.

    Whilst the Dem candidate won't win it is far closer than has been made out. This is what November is going to be like.

    https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1281389586757963781?s=19

    @Alastair I did indeed as that was the percentage at the time I posted (not sure it was Wikipedia I used but can't remember). But you are right, it is a lot closer and that percentage wouldn't be great.

    One other point though. This special election took place because the NY-27 Rep had been sent to prison. I think one of the main reasons why people were saying CA-25 shouldn't be representative for the GOP is because the previous incumbent had resigned in a scandal and so that contributed to the Republican win. So, IF a previous Rep being tainted by a scandal impacts a special election result, it should apply in this case as well. What's sauce for the goose.....
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,190
    I don't think it matters - Sunak is showing what the Next Generation can do. Locally my new Tory MP is a bit of a mixed bag. As an MP he's night and day better than James "Where's" Wharton his predecessor to 2017. He's backed the ExcludedUK group, he actually corresponds with constituents, he's held street surgeries in my town whereas Wharton utterly ignored any parts of the constituency that weren't solid Tory. Combine tht6with the promise of millions for regeration and I can see him building a solid base.

    Which is a problem for the red team. FPT:

    On Topic.

    I think Layla would be much the better choice.

    Expect she would be too left wing for a certain prominent poster who has rejoined recently after being rejected by Labour.

    No I'd be fine with Layla. She wouldn't be as good or as successful as Ed but she'd be ok.

    As with the Leigh piece in the Grauniad there is a real problem for Labour where so many of their activists cannot comprehend why towns voted Tory, and their only response is disdain and sneering abuse. I am clearly verboten having been a Labour member activist official and councillor for 25 years. Kill the defector - which would be ok except that you have people who voted Labour for ever going Tory, this government so far has more than delivered for them, and the Labour response is abuse.

    I get the sense that moat of the stick that Johnson gets - fair as it is - goes over the head of many normals as just politics. What delivers for them is what motivates them, and providing Johnson and Sunak don't screw up when switching the money hose off im not sure it matters if Johnson stays on or not. These places are perfectly capable of staying blue, especially with BJO type activists knocking on doors

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,970

    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    I'm having a depressing morning; just maybe PM Johnson thinks that Churchill had setbacks at first and eventually, rose above them, therefore so will he.
    What finally brought the US into the war was the incredibly ill-advised Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour; I suspect that PM Johnson is expecting for the equivalent assistance.
    What that can or will be I suspect that neither he nor I have the slightest idea. January 21's trade going smoothly perhaps?
    Have a nice coffee with some chocolate, or some tea, toast and marmalade and curl up somewhere warm with a nice view or a good book and forget mini-Trump.

    Besides, the fan-boys will be getting up soon and will be here to assure us that disaster is success, failure is achievement and that all is peachy :D:D:D
    LOL! Thanks. However, as I look out of my window the clouds are gathering.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,617

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    We do seem to have failed to utilise enough of our resources effectively whether it is the 750k volunteers, 2m local govt staff or the thousands of empty buildings. Lack of imagination? Distrust of localism? Power to be held on to by the centre? Incompetence?
    I am a NHS responder volunteer. So far I have been on call for 1700 hours according to my app. I have had just one request for help and it was a false alarm.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    MrEd said:

    Alistair said:

    I believe this is the House by-election that got @MrEd confident about Trump doing well.

    On the night the GOP candidate was ahead by 40 points, indeed that's what Wikipedia lists but all the votes have not been counted this is 2018 mid terms all over again.

    Whilst the Dem candidate won't win it is far closer than has been made out. This is what November is going to be like.

    https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1281389586757963781?s=19

    @Alastair I did indeed as that was the percentage at the time I posted (not sure it was Wikipedia I used but can't remember). But you are right, it is a lot closer and that percentage wouldn't be great.

    One other point though. This special election took place because the NY-27 Rep had been sent to prison. I think one of the main reasons why people were saying CA-25 shouldn't be representative for the GOP is because the previous incumbent had resigned in a scandal and so that contributed to the Republican win. So, IF a previous Rep being tainted by a scandal impacts a special election result, it should apply in this case as well. What's sauce for the goose.....
    Of course, special elections are special which is why you can't read too much into them.

    The interesting thing from this one though is just how many Dems must have been postal voting to swing the on the night figure to the current total.

    Dems will be voting by mail come November and hoo boy do the USA states have a lot of voting by mail problems (New York had a massive rejection rate)
  • Options
    It's difficult to argue with conviction against OGH's suggested 3/2 tip (why don't people use the same odds of 6/4 any more?).
    I just can't get overly excited about having to wait for up to 4 years to collect my winnings. Also, if he's going to leave No.10 before the next GE, I strongly suspect it will be sooner rather than later, in which event much more attractive odds are available.
    Were I a betting man, *cough*, I'd be tempted to go for 2021 at 5/1. A full year is a long time in politics.
    As ever, DYOR.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    As someone who genuinely likes Boris and wants him to do well I'm torn. On the one hand I want Johnson to confound expectations, on the other if he goes early to be replaced by Sunak I'd have 5000 reasons to be happy.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256

    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    I'm having a depressing morning; just maybe PM Johnson thinks that Churchill had setbacks at first and eventually, rose above them, therefore so will he.
    What finally brought the US into the war was the incredibly ill-advised Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour; I suspect that PM Johnson is expecting for the equivalent assistance.
    What that can or will be I suspect that neither he nor I have the slightest idea. January 21's trade going smoothly perhaps?
    Well, the very last thing we want or need right now is a load of yanks coming over here...
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,708
    kjh said:

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    We do seem to have failed to utilise enough of our resources effectively whether it is the 750k volunteers, 2m local govt staff or the thousands of empty buildings. Lack of imagination? Distrust of localism? Power to be held on to by the centre? Incompetence?
    I am a NHS responder volunteer. So far I have been on call for 1700 hours according to my app. I have had just one request for help and it was a false alarm.
    Wow! Thanks for volunteering by the way.
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    MaxPB said:

    Probably because the people who work for councils are right duffers.

    Whereas the Cabinet are all brilliant geniuses????

    :D:D
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Alistair said:

    MrEd said:

    Alistair said:

    I believe this is the House by-election that got @MrEd confident about Trump doing well.

    On the night the GOP candidate was ahead by 40 points, indeed that's what Wikipedia lists but all the votes have not been counted this is 2018 mid terms all over again.

    Whilst the Dem candidate won't win it is far closer than has been made out. This is what November is going to be like.

    https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1281389586757963781?s=19

    @Alastair I did indeed as that was the percentage at the time I posted (not sure it was Wikipedia I used but can't remember). But you are right, it is a lot closer and that percentage wouldn't be great.

    One other point though. This special election took place because the NY-27 Rep had been sent to prison. I think one of the main reasons why people were saying CA-25 shouldn't be representative for the GOP is because the previous incumbent had resigned in a scandal and so that contributed to the Republican win. So, IF a previous Rep being tainted by a scandal impacts a special election result, it should apply in this case as well. What's sauce for the goose.....
    Of course, special elections are special which is why you can't read too much into them.

    The interesting thing from this one though is just how many Dems must have been postal voting to swing the on the night figure to the current total.

    Dems will be voting by mail come November and hoo boy do the USA states have a lot of voting by mail problems (New York had a massive rejection rate)
    Yes, that's true on all counts. I read that Joe Biden had hired 600 lawyers in most of the states and presumably that is because there will be a blizzard of lawsuits unleashed around eligible post-in votes. I think a few posters on here have said that there needs to be a clear win in this election otherwise there will be chaos and I think that is right.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    I don't think it matters - Sunak is showing what the Next Generation can do. Locally my new Tory MP is a bit of a mixed bag. As an MP he's night and day better than James "Where's" Wharton his predecessor to 2017. He's backed the ExcludedUK group, he actually corresponds with constituents, he's held street surgeries in my town whereas Wharton utterly ignored any parts of the constituency that weren't solid Tory. Combine tht6with the promise of millions for regeration and I can see him building a solid base.

    Which is a problem for the red team. FPT:

    On Topic.

    I think Layla would be much the better choice.

    Expect she would be too left wing for a certain prominent poster who has rejoined recently after being rejected by Labour.

    No I'd be fine with Layla. She wouldn't be as good or as successful as Ed but she'd be ok.

    As with the Leigh piece in the Grauniad there is a real problem for Labour where so many of their activists cannot comprehend why towns voted Tory, and their only response is disdain and sneering abuse. I am clearly verboten having been a Labour member activist official and councillor for 25 years. Kill the defector - which would be ok except that you have people who voted Labour for ever going Tory, this government so far has more than delivered for them, and the Labour response is abuse.

    I get the sense that moat of the stick that Johnson gets - fair as it is - goes over the head of many normals as just politics. What delivers for them is what motivates them, and providing Johnson and Sunak don't screw up when switching the money hose off im not sure it matters if Johnson stays on or not. These places are perfectly capable of staying blue, especially with BJO type activists knocking on doors

    This is all a very long winded way of saying you're a traitor who is now out to prove that leaving the party was the best thing ever and setting aside the nagging doubt that it was a huge mistake and you should have waited it out.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,970
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    I'm having a depressing morning; just maybe PM Johnson thinks that Churchill had setbacks at first and eventually, rose above them, therefore so will he.
    What finally brought the US into the war was the incredibly ill-advised Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour; I suspect that PM Johnson is expecting for the equivalent assistance.
    What that can or will be I suspect that neither he nor I have the slightest idea. January 21's trade going smoothly perhaps?
    Well, the very last thing we want or need right now is a load of yanks coming over here...
    The one who has come is enough!
  • Options
    BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    I don't think it matters - Sunak is showing what the Next Generation can do. Locally my new Tory MP is a bit of a mixed bag. As an MP he's night and day better than James "Where's" Wharton his predecessor to 2017. He's backed the ExcludedUK group, he actually corresponds with constituents, he's held street surgeries in my town whereas Wharton utterly ignored any parts of the constituency that weren't solid Tory. Combine tht6with the promise of millions for regeration and I can see him building a solid base.

    Which is a problem for the red team. FPT:

    On Topic.

    I think Layla would be much the better choice.

    Expect she would be too left wing for a certain prominent poster who has rejoined recently after being rejected by Labour.

    No I'd be fine with Layla. She wouldn't be as good or as successful as Ed but she'd be ok.

    As with the Leigh piece in the Grauniad there is a real problem for Labour where so many of their activists cannot comprehend why towns voted Tory, and their only response is disdain and sneering abuse. I am clearly verboten having been a Labour member activist official and councillor for 25 years. Kill the defector - which would be ok except that you have people who voted Labour for ever going Tory, this government so far has more than delivered for them, and the Labour response is abuse.

    I get the sense that moat of the stick that Johnson gets - fair as it is - goes over the head of many normals as just politics. What delivers for them is what motivates them, and providing Johnson and Sunak don't screw up when switching the money hose off im not sure it matters if Johnson stays on or not. These places are perfectly capable of staying blue, especially with BJO type activists knocking on doors

    Yeah, the response to that Leigh piece is really telling.

    1-star reviews on TripAdvisor, that will show that ... err ... local independent businessman ...

    right.
  • Options
    BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    kjh said:

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    We do seem to have failed to utilise enough of our resources effectively whether it is the 750k volunteers, 2m local govt staff or the thousands of empty buildings. Lack of imagination? Distrust of localism? Power to be held on to by the centre? Incompetence?
    I am a NHS responder volunteer. So far I have been on call for 1700 hours according to my app. I have had just one request for help and it was a false alarm.
    similar tale here. just not been needed.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256

    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    I'm having a depressing morning; just maybe PM Johnson thinks that Churchill had setbacks at first and eventually, rose above them, therefore so will he.
    What finally brought the US into the war was the incredibly ill-advised Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour; I suspect that PM Johnson is expecting for the equivalent assistance.
    What that can or will be I suspect that neither he nor I have the slightest idea. January 21's trade going smoothly perhaps?
    Have a nice coffee with some chocolate, or some tea, toast and marmalade and curl up somewhere warm with a nice view or a good book and forget mini-Trump.

    Besides, the fan-boys will be getting up soon and will be here to assure us that disaster is success, failure is achievement and that all is peachy :D:D:D
    LOL! Thanks. However, as I look out of my window the clouds are gathering.
    A lovely warm and sunny morning here, and as I look out of the window there is already an early bird yachtsman (or woman) sailing by.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256

    It's difficult to argue with conviction against OGH's suggested 3/2 tip (why don't people use the same odds of 6/4 any more?).
    I just can't get overly excited about having to wait for up to 4 years to collect my winnings. Also, if he's going to leave No.10 before the next GE, I strongly suspect it will be sooner rather than later, in which event much more attractive odds are available.
    Were I a betting man, *cough*, I'd be tempted to go for 2021 at 5/1. A full year is a long time in politics.
    As ever, DYOR.

    The reason it is 7/2 is to avoid the awkward fractional of three and a half to one. The same consideration doesn’t apply to 6/4 and the mystery is how ever it came to be 6/4 rather than 3/2 in the first place?
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,190
    MaxPB said:

    I don't think it matters - Sunak is showing what the Next Generation can do. Locally my new Tory MP is a bit of a mixed bag. As an MP he's night and day better than James "Where's" Wharton his predecessor to 2017. He's backed the ExcludedUK group, he actually corresponds with constituents, he's held street surgeries in my town whereas Wharton utterly ignored any parts of the constituency that weren't solid Tory. Combine tht6with the promise of millions for regeration and I can see him building a solid base.

    Which is a problem for the red team. FPT:

    On Topic.

    I think Layla would be much the better choice.

    Expect she would be too left wing for a certain prominent poster who has rejoined recently after being rejected by Labour.

    No I'd be fine with Layla. She wouldn't be as good or as successful as Ed but she'd be ok.

    As with the Leigh piece in the Grauniad there is a real problem for Labour where so many of their activists cannot comprehend why towns voted Tory, and their only response is disdain and sneering abuse. I am clearly verboten having been a Labour member activist official and councillor for 25 years. Kill the defector - which would be ok except that you have people who voted Labour for ever going Tory, this government so far has more than delivered for them, and the Labour response is abuse.

    I get the sense that moat of the stick that Johnson gets - fair as it is - goes over the head of many normals as just politics. What delivers for them is what motivates them, and providing Johnson and Sunak don't screw up when switching the money hose off im not sure it matters if Johnson stays on or not. These places are perfectly capable of staying blue, especially with BJO type activists knocking on doors

    This is all a very long winded way of saying you're a traitor who is now out to prove that leaving the party was the best thing ever and setting aside the nagging doubt that it was a huge mistake and you should have waited it out.
    I think you prove my point. Anyone not supporting Labour any more is seen by some as a traitor. I heard some shocking conversations on the doorstep towards the end of my time from activists and worse reported from doorsteps last autumn.

    I am irrelevant. Ex Labour now Tory voters are relevant.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2020

    It's difficult to argue with conviction against OGH's suggested 3/2 tip (why don't people use the same odds of 6/4 any more?).
    I just can't get overly excited about having to wait for up to 4 years to collect my winnings. Also, if he's going to leave No.10 before the next GE, I strongly suspect it will be sooner rather than later, in which event much more attractive odds are available.
    Were I a betting man, *cough*, I'd be tempted to go for 2021 at 5/1. A full year is a long time in politics.
    As ever, DYOR.

    I never understood why 6/4 was used instead of 3/2

    You wouldn't call 5/1 10/2 or 20/4
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135

    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    I'm having a depressing morning; just maybe PM Johnson thinks that Churchill had setbacks at first and eventually, rose above them, therefore so will he.
    What finally brought the US into the war was the incredibly ill-advised Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour; I suspect that PM Johnson is expecting for the equivalent assistance.
    What that can or will be I suspect that neither he nor I have the slightest idea. January 21's trade going smoothly perhaps?
    What has Johnson got left for his "to do list"? Legacy! A BINO trade deal has to be the only answer. It will be EU membership in all but name and it will be sold as victory, and what is more the Conservative Party and white
    van man Brexiteers will buy it. Legacy preserved!

    Farage will start a new party claiming a sell out, but no one will care, people will laugh at him, Brexit will be done, and so will we!
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,469
    edited July 2020

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    We do seem to have failed to utilise enough of our resources effectively whether it is the 750k volunteers, 2m local govt staff or the thousands of empty buildings. Lack of imagination? Distrust of localism? Power to be held on to by the centre? Incompetence?
    I think Jenkins is bullshitting, wearing his Angry Man of Primrose Hill, or whatever it is, persona. Very easy stuff to say for lazy people with a column to fill.

    The job of the LA in these circs is to maintain services as necessarily modified, and to work to provide local support as needed - especially perhaps to care home, and to help out government as required (may be some genuine criticism there).

    As somebody with Type I Diabetes, but no active comorbidities, so not quite on the 2.5m "list", my local authority (Ashfield DC) were the first to contact me of any public body and offer support. And they kept all the services i interface with running throughout, from bins to planning.

    Jenkins needs to identify exactly what he means rather than make a random gibbering noise, or take a long walk off a short plank.

    I appreciate that YMMV.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,190
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    Probably because the people who work for councils are right duffers.
    Every single one of them, Max? You know that, do you?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,188
    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    We do seem to have failed to utilise enough of our resources effectively whether it is the 750k volunteers, 2m local govt staff or the thousands of empty buildings. Lack of imagination? Distrust of localism? Power to be held on to by the centre? Incompetence?
    I think Jenkins is bullshitting, wearing his Angry Man of Primrose Hill, or whatever it is, persona. Very easy stuff to say for lazy people with a column to fill.

    The job of the LA in these circs is to maintain services as necessarily modified, and to work to provide local support as needed - especially perhaps to care home, and to help out government as required (may be some genuine criticism there).

    As somebody with Type I Diabetes, but no active comorbidities, so not quite on the 2.5m "list", my local authority (Ashfield DC) were the first to contact me of any public body and offer support. And they kept all the services i interface with running throughout, from bins to planning.

    Jenkins needs to identify exactly what he means rather than make a random gibbering noise, or take a long walk off a short plank.

    I appreciate that YMMV.
    In Ceredigion, a council employee took it upon himself to set up and run a local test, trace and contact service for the area. He realised the council might be best placed to run such a service, partly because through the council workers they had huge informal information about what was happening out in the community, so gathering data wasn't as onerous as first though.

    It has been highly successful iirc.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,500
    MaxPB said:

    I don't think it matters - Sunak is showing what the Next Generation can do. Locally my new Tory MP is a bit of a mixed bag. As an MP he's night and day better than James "Where's" Wharton his predecessor to 2017. He's backed the ExcludedUK group, he actually corresponds with constituents, he's held street surgeries in my town whereas Wharton utterly ignored any parts of the constituency that weren't solid Tory. Combine tht6with the promise of millions for regeration and I can see him building a solid base.

    Which is a problem for the red team. FPT:

    On Topic.

    I think Layla would be much the better choice.

    Expect she would be too left wing for a certain prominent poster who has rejoined recently after being rejected by Labour.

    No I'd be fine with Layla. She wouldn't be as good or as successful as Ed but she'd be ok.

    As with the Leigh piece in the Grauniad there is a real problem for Labour where so many of their activists cannot comprehend why towns voted Tory, and their only response is disdain and sneering abuse. I am clearly verboten having been a Labour member activist official and councillor for 25 years. Kill the defector - which would be ok except that you have people who voted Labour for ever going Tory, this government so far has more than delivered for them, and the Labour response is abuse.

    I get the sense that moat of the stick that Johnson gets - fair as it is - goes over the head of many normals as just politics. What delivers for them is what motivates them, and providing Johnson and Sunak don't screw up when switching the money hose off im not sure it matters if Johnson stays on or not. These places are perfectly capable of staying blue, especially with BJO type activists knocking on doors

    This is all a very long winded way of saying you're a traitor who is now out to prove that leaving the party was the best thing ever and setting aside the nagging doubt that it was a huge mistake and you should have waited it out.
    We’re back to traitors now ?
    You’re a curious mix of the eminently reasonable and the absurd, Max. This morning the latter seems to have the upper hand.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135

    MaxPB said:

    I don't think it matters - Sunak is showing what the Next Generation can do. Locally my new Tory MP is a bit of a mixed bag. As an MP he's night and day better than James "Where's" Wharton his predecessor to 2017. He's backed the ExcludedUK group, he actually corresponds with constituents, he's held street surgeries in my town whereas Wharton utterly ignored any parts of the constituency that weren't solid Tory. Combine tht6with the promise of millions for regeration and I can see him building a solid base.

    Which is a problem for the red team. FPT:

    On Topic.

    I think Layla would be much the better choice.

    Expect she would be too left wing for a certain prominent poster who has rejoined recently after being rejected by Labour.

    No I'd be fine with Layla. She wouldn't be as good or as successful as Ed but she'd be ok.

    As with the Leigh piece in the Grauniad there is a real problem for Labour where so many of their activists cannot comprehend why towns voted Tory, and their only response is disdain and sneering abuse. I am clearly verboten having been a Labour member activist official and councillor for 25 years. Kill the defector - which would be ok except that you have people who voted Labour for ever going Tory, this government so far has more than delivered for them, and the Labour response is abuse.

    I get the sense that moat of the stick that Johnson gets - fair as it is - goes over the head of many normals as just politics. What delivers for them is what motivates them, and providing Johnson and Sunak don't screw up when switching the money hose off im not sure it matters if Johnson stays on or not. These places are perfectly capable of staying blue, especially with BJO type activists knocking on doors

    This is all a very long winded way of saying you're a traitor who is now out to prove that leaving the party was the best thing ever and setting aside the nagging doubt that it was a huge mistake and you should have waited it out.
    I think you prove my point. Anyone not supporting Labour any more is seen by some as a traitor. I heard some shocking conversations on the doorstep towards the end of my time from activists and worse reported from doorsteps last autumn.

    I am irrelevant. Ex Labour now Tory voters are relevant.
    Johnson still reaches parts other Conservatives cannot reach. Sunak's competence is no match for Johnson's bumbling bon hommie.

    The fear for Labour shouldn't be, will the blue wall Tories remain loyal to their new party, which over time they won't, but what happens next. Will they stay at home, or will they be so angry they find new political friends in the vein of Tommy Robinson? Labour aren't even second on the list at the moment. Starmer has his work cut out.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    It's difficult to argue with conviction against OGH's suggested 3/2 tip (why don't people use the same odds of 6/4 any more?).
    I just can't get overly excited about having to wait for up to 4 years to collect my winnings. Also, if he's going to leave No.10 before the next GE, I strongly suspect it will be sooner rather than later, in which event much more attractive odds are available.
    Were I a betting man, *cough*, I'd be tempted to go for 2021 at 5/1. A full year is a long time in politics.
    As ever, DYOR.

    I never understood why 6/4 was used instead of 3/2

    You wouldn't call 5/1 10/2 or 20/4
    Is it because in the hand signals that bookies used to use it could be confused with something else? No ide just a guess
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    Probably because the people who work for councils are right duffers.
    Every single one of them, Max? You know that, do you?
    Privatise the lot of them! I hear Carillion do a very good job of opted out services! Oh wait...
  • Options

    It's difficult to argue with conviction against OGH's suggested 3/2 tip (why don't people use the same odds of 6/4 any more?).
    I just can't get overly excited about having to wait for up to 4 years to collect my winnings. Also, if he's going to leave No.10 before the next GE, I strongly suspect it will be sooner rather than later, in which event much more attractive odds are available.
    Were I a betting man, *cough*, I'd be tempted to go for 2021 at 5/1. A full year is a long time in politics.
    As ever, DYOR.

    I never understood why 6/4 was used instead of 3/2

    You wouldn't call 5/1 10/2 or 20/4
    I know, I know, but "Six to Four the Field" just sounds so much more turf accountant-like!
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,268
    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,514
    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    100% agree. Plus there is the extraordinary fact that, for example, the local governments that run Yorkshire (population 5.4 million) is treated as a collection of waste bin emptiers, the local government that runs Scotland (population 5.5 million) is treated as the Parliament of a major world power.

  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,955

    It's difficult to argue with conviction against OGH's suggested 3/2 tip (why don't people use the same odds of 6/4 any more?).
    I just can't get overly excited about having to wait for up to 4 years to collect my winnings. Also, if he's going to leave No.10 before the next GE, I strongly suspect it will be sooner rather than later, in which event much more attractive odds are available.
    Were I a betting man, *cough*, I'd be tempted to go for 2021 at 5/1. A full year is a long time in politics.
    As ever, DYOR.

    I never understood why 6/4 was used instead of 3/2

    You wouldn't call 5/1 10/2 or 20/4
    I know, I know, but "Six to Four the Field" just sounds so much more turf accountant-like!
    6/4 offered greater flexibility than 3/2. 100/30 is just there to avoid it sounding like 10 to 3.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,514
    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    It's the wheel of fortune. Chaucer would love it. Boris has had the most amazing good luck to get to the top job, and nothing but bad luck since.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,096
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    Probably because the people who work for councils are right duffers.
    Every single one of them, Max? You know that, do you?
    It's absurd isn't it. So much ignorant bile. The trashing of local government in recent decades has been one of the true scandals of our age, allowed to happen thanks to the death of the local press and prejudice such as this, that infects Whitehall too. Local councils do a lot of complex thankless tasks well, and could do them a lot better if they had any money.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    The job losses aren't the fault of the government. It is difficult to see that anything they try can mitigate the arriving storm. That is the drawback of incumbency. The incumbent takes the blame!
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,882
    algarkirk said:

    It's the wheel of fortune. Chaucer would love it. Boris has had the most amazing good luck to get to the top job, and nothing but bad luck since.

    Or a Faustian pact.

    "I can make you PM. And you will hate it..."
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,955

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    Yesterday's job losses are Boots, John Lewis and Burger King closing stores that were never really that profitable.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,268
    Scott_xP said:
    That is just ridiculous comment

    The nawsayers need to understand the pandemic has changed so much that most things will be very different for a long time and most people appreciate that and will adapt to the new new
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,882
    BoZo also has to hope we find a vaccine, better or quicker than the EU
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,500
    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    Keep buggering on ... ?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,500
    Is this just Covid, or is it something else ?
    That the news is out of Kazakhstan, via China, throws a cloud of doubt over it.

    https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1281475776613933057
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,599

    I don't think it matters - Sunak is showing what the Next Generation can do. Locally my new Tory MP is a bit of a mixed bag. As an MP he's night and day better than James "Where's" Wharton his predecessor to 2017. He's backed the ExcludedUK group, he actually corresponds with constituents, he's held street surgeries in my town whereas Wharton utterly ignored any parts of the constituency that weren't solid Tory. Combine tht6with the promise of millions for regeration and I can see him building a solid base.

    Which is a problem for the red team. FPT:

    On Topic.

    I think Layla would be much the better choice.

    Expect she would be too left wing for a certain prominent poster who has rejoined recently after being rejected by Labour.

    No I'd be fine with Layla. She wouldn't be as good or as successful as Ed but she'd be ok.

    As with the Leigh piece in the Grauniad there is a real problem for Labour where so many of their activists cannot comprehend why towns voted Tory, and their only response is disdain and sneering abuse. I am clearly verboten having been a Labour member activist official and councillor for 25 years. Kill the defector - which would be ok except that you have people who voted Labour for ever going Tory, this government so far has more than delivered for them, and the Labour response is abuse.

    I get the sense that moat of the stick that Johnson gets - fair as it is - goes over the head of many normals as just politics. What delivers for them is what motivates them, and providing Johnson and Sunak don't screw up when switching the money hose off im not sure it matters if Johnson stays on or not. These places are perfectly capable of staying blue, especially with BJO type activists knocking on doors

    I did initially sympathise with you over you being prevented from rejoining. However, upon the news that your response was to rejoin the LDs having coincidentally experienced an immediate Damascene conversion such that never again would you buy anything coloured even the pinkest shade of red, I'm afraid that that sympathy disappeared.

    I too left Labour in 2019 having had longer period of membership than you (35 years), but unlike you I didn't spend my time openly and visibly campaigning for another party against them at a local level before I rejoined immediately after the GE. Not only did you do that, but you also then had no qualms about immediately joining the LDs (again?) on being rejected by your local CLP. Had you waited a bit and then reapplied after a decent interval in a year or so I suspect you would have been accepted. So it's hard not to reach a conclusion that your local CLP were vindicated by your subsequent actions, and even the members who encouraged you to come back will surely be feeling the same.

    It's worth bearing in mind that your case is also wholly exceptional. I'm not aware of any membership applications having been rejected here and there have been well over 100 joiners into the CLP since December. There have been over 100,000 new members joining nationally, and according to YouGov only 11% of those were intending to vote for Long-Bailey.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,955

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    The job losses aren't the fault of the government. It is difficult to see that anything they try can mitigate the arriving storm. That is the drawback of incumbency. The incumbent takes the blame!
    +1 - all the Government can do is stand up, say we tried to do our best and demonstrate what they did..

    And some of these stories are not profitable - up to now John Lewis Birmingham was rent free (they only paid rates) and even that wasn't enough for them to make a profit.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Nigelb said:

    Is this just Covid, or is it something else ?
    That the news is out of Kazakhstan, via China, throws a cloud of doubt over it.

    https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1281475776613933057

    There were reports from Kazakhstan last week about a resurgence of the black death.

    My understanding if it is that is the black death is quite treatable now with modern medicine. But something definitely seems to be happening there.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    The job losses aren't the fault of the government. It is difficult to see that anything they try can mitigate the arriving storm. That is the drawback of incumbency. The incumbent takes the blame!
    +1 - all the Government can do is stand up, say we tried to do our best and demonstrate what they did..

    And some of these stories are not profitable - up to now John Lewis Birmingham was rent free (they only paid rates) and even that wasn't enough for them to make a profit.
    Now is the right time for businesses to make tough decisions on rightsizing.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135
    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    It's the wheel of fortune. Chaucer would love it. Boris has had the most amazing good luck to get to the top job, and nothing but bad luck since.
    I don't know? Being waited on hand, foot and finger at Chevening and Chequers seems to float his boat, and if he sees that as good fortune he's had plenty of that in the last twelve months.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,500

    I don't think it matters - Sunak is showing what the Next Generation can do. Locally my new Tory MP is a bit of a mixed bag. As an MP he's night and day better than James "Where's" Wharton his predecessor to 2017. He's backed the ExcludedUK group, he actually corresponds with constituents, he's held street surgeries in my town whereas Wharton utterly ignored any parts of the constituency that weren't solid Tory. Combine tht6with the promise of millions for regeration and I can see him building a solid base.

    Which is a problem for the red team. FPT:

    On Topic.

    I think Layla would be much the better choice.

    Expect she would be too left wing for a certain prominent poster who has rejoined recently after being rejected by Labour.

    No I'd be fine with Layla. She wouldn't be as good or as successful as Ed but she'd be ok.

    As with the Leigh piece in the Grauniad there is a real problem for Labour where so many of their activists cannot comprehend why towns voted Tory, and their only response is disdain and sneering abuse. I am clearly verboten having been a Labour member activist official and councillor for 25 years. Kill the defector - which would be ok except that you have people who voted Labour for ever going Tory, this government so far has more than delivered for them, and the Labour response is abuse.

    I get the sense that moat of the stick that Johnson gets - fair as it is - goes over the head of many normals as just politics. What delivers for them is what motivates them, and providing Johnson and Sunak don't screw up when switching the money hose off im not sure it matters if Johnson stays on or not. These places are perfectly capable of staying blue, especially with BJO type activists knocking on doors

    I did initially sympathise with you over you being prevented from rejoining. However, upon the news that your response was to rejoin the LDs having coincidentally experienced an immediate Damascene conversion such that never again would you buy anything coloured even the pinkest shade of red, I'm afraid that that sympathy disappeared.

    I too left Labour in 2019 having had longer period of membership than you (35 years), but unlike you I didn't spend my time openly and visibly campaigning for another party against them at a local level before I rejoined immediately after the GE. Not only did you do that, but you also then had no qualms about immediately joining the LDs (again?) on being rejected by your local CLP. Had you waited a bit and then reapplied after a decent interval in a year or so I suspect you would have been accepted. So it's hard not to reach a conclusion that your local CLP were vindicated by your subsequent actions, and even the members who encouraged you to come back will surely be feeling the same.

    It's worth bearing in mind that your case is also wholly exceptional. I'm not aware of any membership applications having been rejected here and there have been well over 100 joiners into the CLP since December. There have been over 100,000 new members joining nationally, and according to YouGov only 11% of those were intending to vote for Long-Bailey.
    A much fairer assessment than Max's - but I'm personally I'm inclined to give credit for sincerity over tribal loyalty.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,514

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    We haven't seen Rishi when he isn't spraying other people's money around yet. He could be the next Portillo (who he?). His pleased look could easily turn into hubris when it's winter, snow, 4 m unemployed discovering how the benefit system works after furlough. All this has the capacity to destroy landmark industries and activities wholesale. He needs to avoid a 'Who Dares Wins' moment and look a bit humble.

  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,188
    Telegraph has update from countries that seem to be starting second waves. Not cheerful reading.


    Prof Francois Balloux, an epidemiologist and director of the UCL Genetics Institute in London tells them: “To me, the most likely scenario for the Covid-19 epidemic is that there will be a winter wave in the northern hemisphere..."


    I hadn't picked up on what was happening in Israel on the virus.


    "On Sunday Israel’s head of public health, Dr Siegal Sadetzki, said the country was experiencing a second wave of Covid-19 after more than 977 cases were registered.

    On Tuesday she resigned and was scathing of the government's response, saying it had opened up too early, against her advice."
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,709
    Not really surprising:
    "Health official: Trump rally ‘likely’ source of virus surge"
    https://apnews.com/ad96548245e186382225818d8dc416eb
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    Scott_xP said:
    That is just ridiculous comment

    The nawsayers need to understand the pandemic has changed so much that most things will be very different for a long time and most people appreciate that and will adapt to the new new
    I took the comment about "un-fun" to refer to "being in a gym", not the cubicle thing...
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,514

    Scott_xP said:
    That is just ridiculous comment

    The nawsayers need to understand the pandemic has changed so much that most things will be very different for a long time and most people appreciate that and will adapt to the new new
    This is what a zoo will look like once the Woke run things.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,500

    Nigelb said:

    Is this just Covid, or is it something else ?
    That the news is out of Kazakhstan, via China, throws a cloud of doubt over it.

    https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1281475776613933057

    There were reports from Kazakhstan last week about a resurgence of the black death.

    My understanding if it is that is the black death is quite treatable now with modern medicine. But something definitely seems to be happening there.
    This is supposedly an unidentified virus, though.
    Which is quite a different thing than the bacterium yersinia pestis.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,056
    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    The blob likes to keep full control.

    Which is why the government had to force it to use outside testing.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,514

    Telegraph has update from countries that seem to be starting second waves. Not cheerful reading.


    Prof Francois Balloux, an epidemiologist and director of the UCL Genetics Institute in London tells them: “To me, the most likely scenario for the Covid-19 epidemic is that there will be a winter wave in the northern hemisphere..."


    I hadn't picked up on what was happening in Israel on the virus.


    "On Sunday Israel’s head of public health, Dr Siegal Sadetzki, said the country was experiencing a second wave of Covid-19 after more than 977 cases were registered.

    On Tuesday she resigned and was scathing of the government's response, saying it had opened up too early, against her advice."

    'Professor Francois Balloux.' Not quite believable. Maybe it was a certain Tory MP's nickname at school.
  • Options
    booksellerbookseller Posts: 421

    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    If that was his "dream" then he is an idiot. Why try to become someone else? You just get measured against them and so you can never succeed on your own terms. Oscar Wilde had it exactly right when he said "Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken"
    He never wanted to be Churchill, but he wanted the narrative. I think he absolutely wants to be his own man, but he wants to be able to switch on 'Churchill mode' every now and again to get the Brexiteers (and Francois et al) frothed up, salivating and keeping Brexit (a.k.a. "Victory") on track...
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212
    Alistair said:

    I believe this is the House by-election that got @MrEd confident about Trump doing well.

    On the night the GOP candidate was ahead by 40 points, indeed that's what Wikipedia lists but all the votes have not been counted this is 2018 mid terms all over again.

    Whilst the Dem candidate won't win it is far closer than has been made out. This is what November is going to be like.

    https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1281389586757963781?s=19

    What a totally incompetent disaster with the votes not being counted for weeks as they continue to dribble in and everyone becoming increasingly distrusting of the result? Probably.

    #istheUSAreallyafunctioniingdemocracy?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719
    He may not make it to the next GE - 4-5 years in post is not that unusual as PMs go, but I'd think like May he'd fight tooth and nail to get to at least three years, and he'll want to last longer than her. Health permitting that shoujdnt be a problem, the majority is so comfortable even a big drop in popular support will not provoke a challenge. His GE win means his party would give him the chance to turn things round.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    Probably because the people who work for councils are right duffers.
    Every single one of them, Max? You know that, do you?
    It's absurd isn't it. So much ignorant bile. The trashing of local government in recent decades has been one of the true scandals of our age, allowed to happen thanks to the death of the local press and prejudice such as this, that infects Whitehall too. Local councils do a lot of complex thankless tasks well, and could do them a lot better if they had any money.
    The demise of local newspapers is responsible for a lot of the decline in local cohesion reaching beyond local government. If There is nothing to provide focus for local community action, local TV is poor ,free sheets just advertising. The replacement websites try but not sure what traffic they get. It will be up to local councilors themselves to communicate better with their electorates. But at least you don’t need to worry about your misdemeanors being reported in the courts column any longer.
  • Options
    booksellerbookseller Posts: 421
    algarkirk said:

    Telegraph has update from countries that seem to be starting second waves. Not cheerful reading.


    Prof Francois Balloux, an epidemiologist and director of the UCL Genetics Institute in London tells them: “To me, the most likely scenario for the Covid-19 epidemic is that there will be a winter wave in the northern hemisphere..."


    I hadn't picked up on what was happening in Israel on the virus.


    "On Sunday Israel’s head of public health, Dr Siegal Sadetzki, said the country was experiencing a second wave of Covid-19 after more than 977 cases were registered.

    On Tuesday she resigned and was scathing of the government's response, saying it had opened up too early, against her advice."

    'Professor Francois Balloux.' Not quite believable. Maybe it was a certain Tory MP's nickname at school.
    From now on, this is the chap to use for quotes that cannot be otherwise attributed...
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135

    eek said:

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    The job losses aren't the fault of the government. It is difficult to see that anything they try can mitigate the arriving storm. That is the drawback of incumbency. The incumbent takes the blame!
    +1 - all the Government can do is stand up, say we tried to do our best and demonstrate what they did..

    And some of these stories are not profitable - up to now John Lewis Birmingham was rent free (they only paid rates) and even that wasn't enough for them to make a profit.
    Now is the right time for businesses to make tough decisions on rightsizing.
    Are you wearing your "Mr Cynical" tee shirt today?
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,096

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    The blob likes to keep full control.

    Which is why the government had to force it to use outside testing.
    The outsourcers and consultants the government likes to hand our money over to are just as much of a blob, just a much better paid and less accountable one.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    The job losses aren't the fault of the government. It is difficult to see that anything they try can mitigate the arriving storm. That is the drawback of incumbency. The incumbent takes the blame!
    Quite so. Tough times are coming. They'll try their best and even if they do a good job things will be bad and they'll take a hit.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326
    Johnson is a leader for good times and has difficulty striking the right note in a period of lengthy and intractable difficulty. But to be fair, many people aren't sure what they want from him. If he's ebullient they say he's being frivolous at a time of crisis. If he's not ebullient they say he's not himself, perhaps he's still sick.

    Personally I think he'll stay for a good long while. He's always wanted to be PM, and you don't give up a life dream easily.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256
    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    Probably because the people who work for councils are right duffers.
    Every single one of them, Max? You know that, do you?
    It's absurd isn't it. So much ignorant bile. The trashing of local government in recent decades has been one of the true scandals of our age, allowed to happen thanks to the death of the local press and prejudice such as this, that infects Whitehall too. Local councils do a lot of complex thankless tasks well, and could do them a lot better if they had any money.
    The demise of local newspapers is responsible for a lot of the decline in local cohesion reaching beyond local government. If There is nothing to provide focus for local community action, local TV is poor ,free sheets just advertising. The replacement websites try but not sure what traffic they get. It will be up to local councilors themselves to communicate better with their electorates. But at least you don’t need to worry about your misdemeanors being reported in the courts column any longer.
    That's a very good point. During my many years as a councillor I saw the transition in the local papers, from the early days when they would send reporters to most committee meetings and actively investigate and follow up stories, to more recent years when they would mostly just reprint whatever the council sent them and you were lucky if they sent a reporter to the bi-monthly full council meeting. And, as circulation and readership declined, residents no longer relied upon the local paper for their local news.

  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,239
    MrEd said:

    Alistair said:

    I believe this is the House by-election that got @MrEd confident about Trump doing well.

    On the night the GOP candidate was ahead by 40 points, indeed that's what Wikipedia lists but all the votes have not been counted this is 2018 mid terms all over again.

    Whilst the Dem candidate won't win it is far closer than has been made out. This is what November is going to be like.

    https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1281389586757963781?s=19

    @Alastair I did indeed as that was the percentage at the time I posted (not sure it was Wikipedia I used but can't remember). But you are right, it is a lot closer and that percentage wouldn't be great.

    One other point though. This special election took place because the NY-27 Rep had been sent to prison. I think one of the main reasons why people were saying CA-25 shouldn't be representative for the GOP is because the previous incumbent had resigned in a scandal and so that contributed to the Republican win. So, IF a previous Rep being tainted by a scandal impacts a special election result, it should apply in this case as well. What's sauce for the goose.....
    I don't think bye elections tell us very much - otherwise the libdems would have won some general elections, but I think it was you arguing that they are evidence that Trump will outperform his polling.

    I would also ignore anyone arguing that this bye election is evidence that Biden will outperform his polling.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,324
    edited July 2020

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    Re PMQs -- I missed it but on the written page in Hansard things look less clear-cut. The same issue (blaming care homes) extends over several questions and it depends whether you take the view Boris gave a convicing answer to the first question which SKS ignored, or that Boris was gaslighting MPs and the nation in denying the thrust of his original remarks. Perhaps it was different live.
    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-07-08/debates/993D9320-BD23-448B-ACAE-A93F0F6EDF21/Engagements
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135
    kle4 said:

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    The job losses aren't the fault of the government. It is difficult to see that anything they try can mitigate the arriving storm. That is the drawback of incumbency. The incumbent takes the blame!
    Quite so. Tough times are coming. They'll try their best and even if they do a good job things will be bad and they'll take a hit.
    Sunak's statement yesterday was interesting. He has seen the storm clouds brewing and he knows the rain will be brown as well as wet. Those on PB still confident of another Tory landslide in 2024 don't understand this yet.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    I believe this is the House by-election that got @MrEd confident about Trump doing well.

    On the night the GOP candidate was ahead by 40 points, indeed that's what Wikipedia lists but all the votes have not been counted this is 2018 mid terms all over again.

    Whilst the Dem candidate won't win it is far closer than has been made out. This is what November is going to be like.

    https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1281389586757963781?s=19

    What a totally incompetent disaster with the votes not being counted for weeks as they continue to dribble in and everyone becoming increasingly distrusting of the result? Probably.

    #istheUSAreallyafunctioniingdemocracy?
    Both Pensylvania and Michigan went from comfortable but close Trump wins to absolute knife edges once all the votes were counted.

    We could absolutely be looking at idiot American News Networks "calling" multiple states for Trump only to see the postal votes flip them weeks later.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256
    eek said:

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    Yesterday's job losses are Boots, John Lewis and Burger King closing stores that were never really that profitable.
    The geography is interesting, though.

    The wider point is that the line above which businesses are profitable has shifted dramatically, certainly temporarily, and possibly for a longer time.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't think it matters - Sunak is showing what the Next Generation can do. Locally my new Tory MP is a bit of a mixed bag. As an MP he's night and day better than James "Where's" Wharton his predecessor to 2017. He's backed the ExcludedUK group, he actually corresponds with constituents, he's held street surgeries in my town whereas Wharton utterly ignored any parts of the constituency that weren't solid Tory. Combine tht6with the promise of millions for regeration and I can see him building a solid base.

    Which is a problem for the red team. FPT:

    On Topic.

    I think Layla would be much the better choice.

    Expect she would be too left wing for a certain prominent poster who has rejoined recently after being rejected by Labour.

    No I'd be fine with Layla. She wouldn't be as good or as successful as Ed but she'd be ok.

    As with the Leigh piece in the Grauniad there is a real problem for Labour where so many of their activists cannot comprehend why towns voted Tory, and their only response is disdain and sneering abuse. I am clearly verboten having been a Labour member activist official and councillor for 25 years. Kill the defector - which would be ok except that you have people who voted Labour for ever going Tory, this government so far has more than delivered for them, and the Labour response is abuse.

    I get the sense that moat of the stick that Johnson gets - fair as it is - goes over the head of many normals as just politics. What delivers for them is what motivates them, and providing Johnson and Sunak don't screw up when switching the money hose off im not sure it matters if Johnson stays on or not. These places are perfectly capable of staying blue, especially with BJO type activists knocking on doors

    This is all a very long winded way of saying you're a traitor who is now out to prove that leaving the party was the best thing ever and setting aside the nagging doubt that it was a huge mistake and you should have waited it out.
    We’re back to traitors now ?
    You’re a curious mix of the eminently reasonable and the absurd, Max. This morning the latter seems to have the upper hand.
    It was an unpleasant and unwarranted post, hot on the heels of another condemning the millions of people who work in local government. Someone seems to have fallen out of bed this morning.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719

    IanB2 said:

    Yes.

    His whole life, he wondered whether he could become Churchill reborn.

    He now knows he can’t, and isn’t. He is buggering it up.

    What more is there to do?
    If that was his "dream" then he is an idiot. Why try to become someone else? You just get measured against them and so you can never succeed on your own terms. Oscar Wilde had it exactly right when he said "Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken"
    He never wanted to be Churchill, but he wanted the narrative. I think he absolutely wants to be his own man, but he wants to be able to switch on 'Churchill mode' every now and again to get the Brexiteers (and Francois et al) frothed up, salivating and keeping Brexit (a.k.a. "Victory") on track...
    It's one step down from Jim Hacker switching on churchillian mode.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,056

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    The blob likes to keep full control.

    Which is why the government had to force it to use outside testing.
    The outsourcers and consultants the government likes to hand our money over to are just as much of a blob, just a much better paid and less accountable one.
    Its all part of the same blob.

    And you can add the big charities and pressure groups as well.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    I believe this is the House by-election that got @MrEd confident about Trump doing well.

    On the night the GOP candidate was ahead by 40 points, indeed that's what Wikipedia lists but all the votes have not been counted this is 2018 mid terms all over again.

    Whilst the Dem candidate won't win it is far closer than has been made out. This is what November is going to be like.

    https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1281389586757963781?s=19

    What a totally incompetent disaster with the votes not being counted for weeks as they continue to dribble in and everyone becoming increasingly distrusting of the result? Probably.

    #istheUSAreallyafunctioniingdemocracy?
    Both Pensylvania and Michigan went from comfortable but close Trump wins to absolute knife edges once all the votes were counted.

    We could absolutely be looking at idiot American News Networks "calling" multiple states for Trump only to see the postal votes flip them weeks later.
    Preposterous it takes so long. There are so many basic elements to elections that the US seems to make more difficult than it needs to.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,955
    algarkirk said:

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    We haven't seen Rishi when he isn't spraying other people's money around yet. He could be the next Portillo (who he?). His pleased look could easily turn into hubris when it's winter, snow, 4 m unemployed discovering how the benefit system works after furlough. All this has the capacity to destroy landmark industries and activities wholesale. He needs to avoid a 'Who Dares Wins' moment and look a bit humble.

    Which part of the admission from Rishi that "he can't save every job, but is trying his best" did you miss yesterday
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719
    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    It is barely noticed in Westminster that, while across Europe millions of local officials were mobilised to care for, police, test and trace the Covid-19 pandemic, in Britain, some 2 million local government staff were simply ignored. I know of many who were left sitting on their hands while the shambles ensued in London. Their services and their knowledge of local communities were not called on. As the BBC’s Panoroma disclosed on Monday, private clinics and laboratories that came forward to help were disregarded. Rather than go local, Boris Johnson set out to recruit 250,000 untrained “volunteers” and build Nightingale hospitals. Both of these initiatives went largely unused. I am convinced the anti-local prejudice that rages in Whitehall is the major cause of Britain’s catastrophic Covid-19 response.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/09/rishinomics-centralisation-government-local-communities-rishi-sunak-britain-whitehall

    Probably because the people who work for councils are right duffers.
    Every single one of them, Max? You know that, do you?
    It's absurd isn't it. So much ignorant bile. The trashing of local government in recent decades has been one of the true scandals of our age, allowed to happen thanks to the death of the local press and prejudice such as this, that infects Whitehall too. Local councils do a lot of complex thankless tasks well, and could do them a lot better if they had any money.
    The demise of local newspapers is responsible for a lot of the decline in local cohesion reaching beyond local government. If There is nothing to provide focus for local community action, local TV is poor ,free sheets just advertising. The replacement websites try but not sure what traffic they get. It will be up to local councilors themselves to communicate better with their electorates. But at least you don’t need to worry about your misdemeanors being reported in the courts column any longer.
    That's a very good point. During my many years as a councillor I saw the transition in the local papers, from the early days when they would send reporters to most committee meetings and actively investigate and follow up stories, to more recent years when they would mostly just reprint whatever the council sent them and you were lucky if they sent a reporter to the bi-monthly full council meeting. And, as circulation and readership declined, residents no longer relied upon the local paper for their local news.

    My local group of papers had a post paid for by government scheme so someone attended nearly all council meetings and produced multiple stories on each. It was a very good initiative, but either the scheme ended or thryve not taken it up in the last year
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    Re PMQs -- I missed it but on the written page in Hansard things look less clear-cut. The same issue (blaming care homes) extends over several questions and it depends whether you take the view Boris gave a convicing answer to the first question which SKS ignored, or that Boris was gaslighting MPs and the nation in denying the thrust of his original remarks. Perhaps it was different live.
    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-07-08/debates/993D9320-BD23-448B-ACAE-A93F0F6EDF21/Engagements
    Starmer's performance was mediocre/poor by earlier standards. He missed open goals and was haunted a little by the spectre of Corbyn, ploughing on irrespective of the waffly answers Johnson gave.

    One can detect it wasn't Starmer's finest hour as two days later, and the Tories here are still dining out on it. Don't be fooled, the biggest take away was Johnson refusing to retract his earlier care homes comments.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    Re PMQs -- I missed it but on the written page in Hansard things look less clear-cut. The same issue (blaming care homes) extends over several questions and it depends whether you take the view Boris gave a convicing answer to the first question which SKS ignored, or that Boris was gaslighting MPs and the nation in denying the thrust of his original remarks. Perhaps it was different live.
    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-07-08/debates/993D9320-BD23-448B-ACAE-A93F0F6EDF21/Engagements
    Starmer's performance was mediocre/poor by earlier standards. He missed open goals and was haunted a little by the spectre of Corbyn, ploughing on irrespective of the waffly answers Johnson gave.

    One can detect it wasn't Starmer's finest hour as two days later, and the Tories here are still dining out on it. Don't be fooled, the biggest take away was Johnson refusing to retract his earlier care homes comments.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212
    On topic, I think that this very much depends upon his health. At the moment he is clearly still suffering the after effects of a severe bout of Covid. This includes dyspnoea but may also include lassitude and an inability to concentrate.

    This virus is a bugger and the savings that might have come from the deaths of 50k old folk with expensive co-morbidities are very likely to prove illusionary going forward. For me there has been too much, if understandable, focus on the deaths and not enough on the sequelae of a severe illness that has probably affected between 300k and 3m people in the UK.

    How long are these effects going to be, both in general and in Boris's case? Despite @Nigelb's valiant efforts I am really not sure.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,326
    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Good morning

    I would not be surprised to see Boris standing down during 2021 and I would be very content to see Rishi take his place. I read a report that the conservative party feel very grateful to Boris for his success in achieving an 80 seat majority and they are reluctant to take action to remove him, but if the party or Boris do become widely unpopular they will not hesitate to remove him.

    On a minor point Boris was much stronger at last week's PMQ's and Starmer was made to look wooden and by general acclaim Boris won that exchange

    Predictably the media are having a go at HMG over yesterday's job loses trying to make the case that too little has been done to save these jobs. At the same time they continue to object to the pace the lockdown is being lifted when that is the only way to save jobs

    Yesterday's job losses are Boots, John Lewis and Burger King closing stores that were never really that profitable.
    The geography is interesting, though.

    The wider point is that the line above which businesses are profitable has shifted dramatically, certainly temporarily, and possibly for a longer time.
    The lockdown has massively shifted the level of online purchasing. For food it has forced people back into the kitchen.

    I do not think that it will not go back to where it was. Which in turn, means that another tranch of the high street is no longer viable.

    I would also say that this has accelerated a process already in train.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    I believe this is the House by-election that got @MrEd confident about Trump doing well.

    On the night the GOP candidate was ahead by 40 points, indeed that's what Wikipedia lists but all the votes have not been counted this is 2018 mid terms all over again.

    Whilst the Dem candidate won't win it is far closer than has been made out. This is what November is going to be like.

    https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1281389586757963781?s=19

    What a totally incompetent disaster with the votes not being counted for weeks as they continue to dribble in and everyone becoming increasingly distrusting of the result? Probably.

    #istheUSAreallyafunctioniingdemocracy?
    Both Pensylvania and Michigan went from comfortable but close Trump wins to absolute knife edges once all the votes were counted.

    We could absolutely be looking at idiot American News Networks "calling" multiple states for Trump only to see the postal votes flip them weeks later.
    Postal votes tend to go Republican e.g. it was the mail in military votes that won Florida for Bush in 2000
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    booksellerbookseller Posts: 421
    kamski said:

    MrEd said:

    Alistair said:

    I believe this is the House by-election that got @MrEd confident about Trump doing well.

    On the night the GOP candidate was ahead by 40 points, indeed that's what Wikipedia lists but all the votes have not been counted this is 2018 mid terms all over again.

    Whilst the Dem candidate won't win it is far closer than has been made out. This is what November is going to be like.

    https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1281389586757963781?s=19

    @Alastair I did indeed as that was the percentage at the time I posted (not sure it was Wikipedia I used but can't remember). But you are right, it is a lot closer and that percentage wouldn't be great.

    One other point though. This special election took place because the NY-27 Rep had been sent to prison. I think one of the main reasons why people were saying CA-25 shouldn't be representative for the GOP is because the previous incumbent had resigned in a scandal and so that contributed to the Republican win. So, IF a previous Rep being tainted by a scandal impacts a special election result, it should apply in this case as well. What's sauce for the goose.....
    I don't think bye elections tell us very much - otherwise the libdems would have won some general elections, but I think it was you arguing that they are evidence that Trump will outperform his polling.

    I would also ignore anyone arguing that this bye election is evidence that Biden will outperform his polling.
    Shy Trumpians?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135
    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think that this very much depends upon his health. At the moment he is clearly still suffering the after effects of a severe bout of Covid. This includes dyspnoea but may also include lassitude and an inability to concentrate.

    This virus is a bugger and the savings that might have come from the deaths of 50k old folk with expensive co-morbidities are very likely to prove illusionary going forward. For me there has been too much, if understandable, focus on the deaths and not enough on the sequelae of a severe illness that has probably affected between 300k and 3m people in the UK.

    How long are these effects going to be, both in general and in Boris's case? Despite @Nigelb's valiant efforts I am really not sure.

    Nah, Johnson is not over taxing himself during his recovery. Cummings is doing all the heavy lifting so all is good for a few more years.
This discussion has been closed.