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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Worries about the economy at highest level since 2013

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited January 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Worries about the economy at highest level since 2013

The January Ipsos-MORI economic optimism index is out and shows the lowest figure since 2013. This has been a regular tracker from the firm for decades and is calculated by taking the percentage of those saying they are optimistic about the economy and deducting those who are negative.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    First!
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    Second. Or somewhere.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    FPT

    The distortions, inaccuracies, lazy arrogance and plain stupidities in Blanchflower's piece are almost too numerous to count and yet even he despairs of the Labour leaderships understanding of economics: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/01/opposing-austerity-not-enough-labour-s-leaders-need-lessons-economics-fast

    I fear that this economics panel is going to prove an embarrassment for Labour.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Scottish Labour! ... I mean Third!
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,329
    This is to do with regularly floated interest rate rises, surely? Offsetting that is low fuel prices (which everyone has noticed) but I suspect some are wondering if it's too good to be true.

    Also, a lot of people where I work now 'rule out' summer holidays to anywhere like Tunisia, Egypt, Morroco, many of the Greek islands, and even Turkey.

    That doesn't help contribute to people feeling optimistic.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Make or buy? Who is importing their doctors?
    @OECD chart https://t.co/Hwj1o5BUa9
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    On topic I think Mike is right that those promoting Leave would have done better if the economy was doing well and the international economy was thriving. The world looks a colder place as international trade falters and it probably is the case that it would not be an ideal time to renegotiate a slew of trade deals.

    What I find surprising is how the international economy is doing. Historically a crash in the oil price such as we have seen has been very good for western economies boosting spending on other things and cooling inflation allowing lower interest rates. Of course in the brave new world post 2008 interest rates are already on the floor and we are more worried about deflation than inflation but the spending boost is still there.

    The major concern seems to be the Chinese economy and yet if one economy should benefit from the fall in oil and other commodities it is them. There are of course a number of other inbalances which threaten their economy.

    There is no doubt the economy is more fragile than it was and the risk of things going off track in various places is higher than it has been. As I mentioned yesterday Greece is worth keeping an eye on. Any repeat of the way they were treated last year just might give Leave a boost.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    edited January 2016
    "There is an argument that people will be less reluctant to rock the boat by voting for change at a time of uncertainty."

    Unless of course the people see the EU, with its hamstrung economies, migrant crisis and inward looking inability to make decisions, as being part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

    This is the opportunity for those making a positive case for leaving the EU (the Hannans and Carswells, rather than the Farages) to make their pitch to the electorate of the UK being an international power in its own right.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    This is to do with regularly floated interest rate rises, surely? Offsetting that is low fuel prices (which everyone has noticed) but I suspect some are wondering if it's too good to be true.

    Also, a lot of people where I work now 'rule out' summer holidays to anywhere like Tunisia, Egypt, Morroco, many of the Greek islands, and even Turkey.

    That doesn't help contribute to people feeling optimistic.

    agreed

    France and Italy are much nicer and closer anyway. Plus more stay cations!
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    This is to do with regularly floated interest rate rises, surely? Offsetting that is low fuel prices (which everyone has noticed) but I suspect some are wondering if it's too good to be true.

    Also, a lot of people where I work now 'rule out' summer holidays to anywhere like Tunisia, Egypt, Morroco, many of the Greek islands, and even Turkey.

    That doesn't help contribute to people feeling optimistic.

    The news from China, and the stockmarket turning into a Bear market alters perceptions too.

    Time to fix the roof before the rain starts to fall.
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    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited January 2016
    DavidL said:

    FPT

    The distortions, inaccuracies, lazy arrogance and plain stupidities in Blanchflower's piece are almost too numerous to count and yet even he despairs of the Labour leaderships understanding of economics: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/01/opposing-austerity-not-enough-labour-s-leaders-need-lessons-economics-fast

    I fear that this economics panel is going to prove an embarrassment for Labour.

    Is his assertion that an economist can simultaneously be "honest, left-leaning and credible" inaccurate, arrogant, plain supid or all three at once? I am sure you know, David.

    Mind you, Blanchflower also claims that work makes people happy. That was never my experience of it.

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mortimer said:

    This is to do with regularly floated interest rate rises, surely? Offsetting that is low fuel prices (which everyone has noticed) but I suspect some are wondering if it's too good to be true.

    Also, a lot of people where I work now 'rule out' summer holidays to anywhere like Tunisia, Egypt, Morroco, many of the Greek islands, and even Turkey.

    That doesn't help contribute to people feeling optimistic.

    agreed

    France and Italy are much nicer and closer anyway. Plus more stay cations!
    3 months ago I was in Istanbul and ate in the famous Pudding Shop opposite where the recent bomb went off. I think that I have taken my last trip to a Muslim country for a while. I would love to have another look at Egypt but not for a good while yet.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Election boom wearing out.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    This is to do with regularly floated interest rate rises, surely? Offsetting that is low fuel prices (which everyone has noticed) but I suspect some are wondering if it's too good to be true.

    Also, a lot of people where I work now 'rule out' summer holidays to anywhere like Tunisia, Egypt, Morroco, many of the Greek islands, and even Turkey.

    That doesn't help contribute to people feeling optimistic.

    The news from China, and the stockmarket turning into a Bear market alters perceptions too.

    Time to fix the roof before the rain starts to fall.
    Codswallop, George has been assured he has an extra 20 billion to 2020 to play wit :)
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    runnymede said:
    If this lawyer knew this already, surely its for the Law Society to act.. for whatever charge is appropriate
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    FFS

    Brighton school children asked to choose from list of 23 terms to describe their gender - https://t.co/4x7kdtKrxL https://t.co/m6oFgYzNjo
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    This reminds me of the letter a young man wrote to his father after announcing he was off to make a fortune gambling:

    System doing well, please send more money.

    The EU has failed us, we buy more than we sell, on top of that we pay £billions in membership fees. To Remain is to throw good money after bad, if Osborne says we have to stay because of economic security he must be mad.

    I sense panic at Tory HQ, win or lose this really wasn't the plan.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'I sense panic at Tory HQ, win or lose this really wasn't the plan.'

    I suppose all conmen and fraudsters live in fear that one day their scams will become redundant and the knackers yard will beckon
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    FFS

    Brighton school children asked to choose from list of 23 terms to describe their gender - https://t.co/4x7kdtKrxL https://t.co/m6oFgYzNjo

    FFS doesn't do justice to this absolute phucking nonsense, we're spending a fortune on idiots producing this rubbish.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    "There is an argument that people will be less reluctant to rock the boat by voting for change at a time of uncertainty. If that is correct, and I’m only partially convinced, then BREXIT needs perceptions about the economy to be positive at the time of the vote."

    I'm not convinced either. My take would be at that at a time of uncertainty, voters will gravitate towards that entity - political party, institution etc. - which is most economically trusted. Often, that will be the status quo but not always.

    In this case, is the EU more trusted on the economy than the UK government? I suspect not. As such, it's probably a marginal gain for Leave. The converse would have been true in 1975 when the UK was a basket case and Germany, as the core of the EEC, was seen as a major success (of the original EEC-6, only Italy was clearly not a model in the mid-1970s but then no-one was suggesting that it was).

    The economic arguments will be made both ways - gaining back the contributions is the clearest gain but the loss of guaranteed unhindered free trade goes the other way, particularly in places near actual or potential borders - and overall I think the net effect will be minimal.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    It's all going so well

    NHS Wales: Waiting times worse than in England https://t.co/kOayXRzEyg https://t.co/259gdG3gTC
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    Add in Leave not being able to organise a farting contest in a baked bean factory and you could be right Mike

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/692473977055383552
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    The distortions, inaccuracies, lazy arrogance and plain stupidities in Blanchflower's piece are almost too numerous to count and yet even he despairs of the Labour leaderships understanding of economics: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/01/opposing-austerity-not-enough-labour-s-leaders-need-lessons-economics-fast

    I fear that this economics panel is going to prove an embarrassment for Labour.

    Is his assertion that an economist can simultaneously be "honest, left-leaning and credible" inaccurate, arrogant, plain supid or all three at once? I am sure you know, David.

    It is none of these but unfortunately he himself fails the first and third tests.

    The man is supposed to be a labour economist who famously predicted mass unemployment as a result of austerity. Of course we got the exact opposite with a huge increase in employment, especially amongst the young and the low paid. This was very welcome but it changed the nature of the employment market reducing the average wage (since a couple of million came in at the bottom).

    He says: "Since the start of the Great Recession nearly eight years ago, ordinary working people have experienced big falls in their living standards. Real wages are still down by 9 per cent since 2008 and 2.5 per cent since the coalition was formed in May 2010."

    This is dishonest. As he knows very well this is not comparing like with like because the labour force has changed and become more inclusive. Those that remained in employment (the vast majority) are in fact better off and of course paying less tax. It also ignores, even on his figures, that 6.5% of that fall occurred under Labour. He then goes on to claim that:

    "Too many people are constrained by not being able to get enough hours, or are stuck in temporary jobs, and that is especially true of the young whom the Tories have abandoned."

    Presumably he is aware that both FT employment and youth employment are at record levels. That is supposed to be his job after all.

    His viewpoint is distorted by an irrational hatred of the Tories and past mistakes. But even he despairs of the Labour leadership's beliefs and understandings.

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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    This must hurt

    Media Guardian
    Daily Mail website's ad revenues surge as paper prepares for price hike https://t.co/U7opmIHb2Z https://t.co/3M6EGqp6nh
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    And

    BoJo EU-turn: Double blow to Brexit fight as Johnson and Gove opt to stay

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6891299/Boris-Johnson-Michael-Gove-back-EU-Remain-campaign.html
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    The distortions, inaccuracies, lazy arrogance and plain stupidities in Blanchflower's piece are almost too numerous to count and yet even he despairs of the Labour leaderships understanding of economics: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/01/opposing-austerity-not-enough-labour-s-leaders-need-lessons-economics-fast

    I fear that this economics panel is going to prove an embarrassment for Labour.

    Is his assertion that an economist can simultaneously be "honest, left-leaning and credible" inaccurate, arrogant, plain supid or all three at once? I am sure you know, David.

    Mind you, Blanchflower also claims that work makes people happy. That was never my experience of it.

    He actually says "smart, left-leaning and credible".

    Of course it's possible to be that. Perhaps the greatest UK economist of all time was. (It's a close-run thing between Keynes and Adam Smith as to who was the greater and a largely pointless discussion as their contributions were so immense but in such different contexts that you might as well argue as to whether Newton or Shakespeare was the greater).

    Blanchflower, however, is not credible. His apocalyptic predictions for the consequences of austerity as set against the reality, combined with his overt partisanship and easily contradicted assertions e.g. the Tories want to make the poor poorer - how about the living wage, the rise in employment, the funding of schools in deprived areas etc?. But the specific cannot be used to define a generality (unless you are Blanchflower).
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    And as we used to call it, going through a phase.

    FFS

    Brighton school children asked to choose from list of 23 terms to describe their gender - https://t.co/4x7kdtKrxL https://t.co/m6oFgYzNjo

    FFS doesn't do justice to this absolute phucking nonsense, we're spending a fortune on idiots producing this rubbish.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I don't know Blanchflowers predictions but was his mass unemployment claim based on what Osborne said he was going to do (eliminate the deficit in a single parliament) or what he actually did ( follow Labour's spending plans)?
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    A halfway credible and competent opposition would be making hay right now, what with the referendum, the Google tax fiasco, the pensions grab, the tax credit climbdown and so on. The government has had a very poor time of it since the election. But it is unscathed because Labour is led by a moron who surrounds himself with morons.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good morning, everyone.

    I'm unconvinced by the article's argument.

    The biggest advantage Remain has is fear of the unknown. But if the known becomes less attractive (migrant crisis, economic woe etc) then the unknown becomes less fearful.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    A halfway credible and competent opposition would be making hay right now, what with the referendum, the Google tax fiasco, the pensions grab, the tax credit climbdown and so on. The government has had a very poor time of it since the election. But it is unscathed because Labour is led by a moron who surrounds himself with morons.

    That is the real tragedy of Corbyn. The Labour party have no time for anything other than their own feuding. Never has such a thin government majority seemed so secure.
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    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited January 2016

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    The distortions, inaccuracies, lazy arrogance and plain stupidities in Blanchflower's piece are almost too numerous to count and yet even he despairs of the Labour leaderships understanding of economics: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/01/opposing-austerity-not-enough-labour-s-leaders-need-lessons-economics-fast

    I fear that this economics panel is going to prove an embarrassment for Labour.

    Is his assertion that an economist can simultaneously be "honest, left-leaning and credible" inaccurate, arrogant, plain supid or all three at once? I am sure you know, David.

    Mind you, Blanchflower also claims that work makes people happy. That was never my experience of it.

    He actually says "smart, left-leaning and credible".

    Of course it's possible to be that. Perhaps the greatest UK economist of all time was. (It's a close-run thing between Keynes and Adam Smith as to who was the greater and a largely pointless discussion as their contributions were so immense but in such different contexts that you might as well argue as to whether Newton or Shakespeare was the greater).

    Blanchflower, however, is not credible. His apocalyptic predictions for the consequences of austerity as set against the reality, combined with his overt partisanship and easily contradicted assertions e.g. the Tories want to make the poor poorer - how about the living wage, the rise in employment, the funding of schools in deprived areas etc?. But the specific cannot be used to define a generality (unless you are Blanchflower).
    I hold no brief for Blanchflower.

    The State clearly has far better ways of managing austerity than it did 100 years ago. When you factor in the decline in family support (compared to then) it is no small achievement. And one that Peebie libertarians might do well to ponder.



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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    A halfway credible and competent opposition would be making hay right now, what with the referendum, the Google tax fiasco, the pensions grab, the tax credit climbdown and so on. The government has had a very poor time of it since the election. But it is unscathed because Labour is led by a moron who surrounds himself with morons.

    About time you put your cards on the table instead of sitting on the fence ;)
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    I wonder if another factor in declining confidence is the lack of a 'Plan B' when it comes to government.....

    Before GE2015 while the Tories were 'better' than Miliband, a Miliband administration, while possibly a bit fraught wouldn't have been the end of the world...

    Now....it may appear we're stuck with the Tories, with few outside the Corbynists remotely believing they'll form the next government - or the prospect that in a fit of absent mindedness they might, leading to further lack of confidence....
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    #BunchGate is the distillation of their current idiocy.

    A halfway credible and competent opposition would be making hay right now, what with the referendum, the Google tax fiasco, the pensions grab, the tax credit climbdown and so on. The government has had a very poor time of it since the election. But it is unscathed because Labour is led by a moron who surrounds himself with morons.

    That is the real tragedy of Corbyn. The Labour party have no time for anything other than their own feuding. Never has such a thin government majority seemed so secure.
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    Good morning, everyone.

    I'm unconvinced by the article's argument.

    The biggest advantage Remain has is fear of the unknown. But if the known becomes less attractive (migrant crisis, economic woe etc) then the unknown becomes less fearful.

    Economic woe is only bad for the in campaign if its related to the Eurozone.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    @DavidL

    I think all of us are prisoners of our preconceptions. Blanchflower, as a left wing economist, will tend to see things enacted by Labour governments as good, and those enacted by Conservative governments as bad. Cognitive dissonance is strong with most of us, and we all have a tendency to assume the next crisis will be exactly like the last one.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Miss Plato, the bunch non-story is just weird.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,334
    It would be darkly funny if the Government within around a year won a General Election on the premise that that the economy was doing well and a referendum on the premise that it was doing badly.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Blanchflower is a figure of ridicule in his profession.

    The fact that he is in the news at all speaks volumes for the modern media, where sensational cr*p is at a premium, and people can turn themselves into instant stars by behaving like idiots.

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    It would be darkly funny if the Government within around a year won a General Election on the premise that that the economy was doing well and a referendum on the premise that it was doing badly.

    And entirely possible.

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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    edited January 2016
    Doing some modelling of Osborne's pension tax relief changes.... If the worst case scenario of abolishing salary sacrifice and restricting ta relief to 25% entails then I am looking at a £150-200k reduction in my pension pot at retirement.

    It would also mean I'm subject to a 69%marginal tax rate (42% tax and NI, 9% student loan and George's 18% additional 'child benefit' tax rate too.

    This is far worse than anything Brown ever did to pensions.

    I wonder if there will be a big increase in the higher rate threshold in the budget as a sop?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,329

    And

    BoJo EU-turn: Double blow to Brexit fight as Johnson and Gove opt to stay

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6891299/Boris-Johnson-Michael-Gove-back-EU-Remain-campaign.html

    This isn't news.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    Doing some modelling of Osborne's pension tax relief changes.... If the worst case scenario of abolishing salary sacrifice and restricting ta relief to 25% entails then Ian looking at a £200k reduction in my pension pot at retirement.

    It would also mean I'm subject to a 69%marginal tax rate (42% tax and NI, 9% student loan and George's 18% additional 'child benefit' tax rate too.

    This is far worse than anything Brown ever did to pensions.

    I wonder if there will be a big increase in the higher rate threshold in the budget as a sop?

    What is the 18% rate? is that where you claim CB but have to pay it back through taxation?
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Alistair said:

    I don't know Blanchflowers predictions but was his mass unemployment claim based on what Osborne said he was going to do (eliminate the deficit in a single parliament) or what he actually did ( follow Labour's spending plans)?

    His prediction of five million unemployed was based on what Osborne said he was going to do, which was in fact quite close to what he did do. The slower reduction in deficit came largely as a result of the negative impact of the Euro-crisis on the UK economy.

    Osborne most certainly did not follow Labour's spending plans and was opposed at each and every turn by Miliband and Balls. While Darling had a nominal objective of halving the deficit by the end of the parliament (which is what I presume you refer to), he never laid out plans to get there, and nor did his successors.

    In any case, even if there was a deviation between what Osborne said he'd do and what he actually did, it doesn't go anywhere near far enough to explain the discrepancy between on the one hand Blanchflower's predictions of unemployment much worse than the 1980s, and on the other, the reality of the highest employment of all time.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    If it's true about Gove that is another 'Paris is worth a mass' moment. His real views on the EU are well-known.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    nof..poor you..
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    As an aside, latest news from Spain. Plans for a PSOE + Podemos coalition have been dealt a blow by the Basque National Party, which has said it will not support a government that has Podemos in it.

    It's incredibly hard to see how Spain avoids another set of elections. PP + C is short of a majority, and C won't support the PP without the head of Rajoy. Podemos has managed to lose a couple of its MPs for no entirely obvious reason, and even if they hadn't PSOE + P would still require pretty much all the nationalist parties to support it.

    The only stable coalition would be PP + PSOE, but the PSOE is scared it will lose votes to Podemos if it gets into bed with the PP.

    Opinion polls show the PP and Podemos up on the last election, with both Citizen's and the PSOE down. Another election would probably (and it's only probably) show a slight swing towards the PP + C grouping, but almost certainly not enough to get it over the 50% mark.

    A grand coalition is possible (20% possibility), as is a PP (propped up by Citizen's) minority government (15%), but I'd reckon the most likely outcome (65%) is new elections in March or April.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    The distortions, inaccuracies, lazy arrogance and plain stupidities in Blanchflower's piece are almost too numerous to count and yet even he despairs of the Labour leaderships understanding of economics: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/01/opposing-austerity-not-enough-labour-s-leaders-need-lessons-economics-fast

    I fear that this economics panel is going to prove an embarrassment for Labour.

    Is his assertion that an economist can simultaneously be "honest, left-leaning and credible" inaccurate, arrogant, plain supid or all three at once? I am sure you know, David.

    Mind you, Blanchflower also claims that work makes people happy. That was never my experience of it.

    He actually says "smart, left-leaning and credible".

    Of course it's possible to be that. Perhaps the greatest UK economist of all time was. (It's a close-run thing between Keynes and Adam Smith as to who was the greater and a largely pointless discussion as their contributions were so immense but in such different contexts that you might as well argue as to whether Newton or Shakespeare was the greater).

    Blanchflower, however, is not credible. His apocalyptic predictions for the consequences of austerity as set against the reality, combined with his overt partisanship and easily contradicted assertions e.g. the Tories want to make the poor poorer - how about the living wage, the rise in employment, the funding of schools in deprived areas etc?. But the specific cannot be used to define a generality (unless you are Blanchflower).
    I hold no brief for Blanchflower.

    The State clearly has far better ways of managing austerity than it did 100 years ago. When you factor in the decline in family support (compared to then) it is no small achievement. And one that Peebie libertarians might do well to ponder.

    On that, I'd agree wholeheartedly.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Incidentally, losing Boris means nothing. The foolish assertion we should vote Leave and then stay in would have made him a liability rather than an asset.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited January 2016
    We would usually describe millions of added jobs, wages running 2-3% ahead of inflation, sky-rocketing house prices, fastest economic growth in advanced economies etc as a boom, yet no one has.

    People generally talk in more circumspect and cautious language about the economy nowadays, including the government. 2007-2008 remains firmly etched on the psyche of all bar the young.

    Mood readings like Mori's are probably reflective of that.

    Money and the economy have been toxic topics for Labour, though they are diversifying in that respect under the Dear Leader.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Incredibly, a newsman Neville Thurlbeck ex NOTW seriously claimed yesterday it was the same as BigotGate and be Cameron's political epitaph.

    Miss Plato, the bunch non-story is just weird.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I would love to have another look at Egypt but not for a good while yet.

    Well you can always come down to London and come to my exhibition of Egyptian stuff (mainly from museums near you but which you have probably never been to!)

    Opens tonight, and getting rave reviews - focused on "hardworking citizens" rather than the Pharaohs as we thought that a nice angle

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/features/new-exhibition-transforming-the-body-in-ancient-egypt-looks-beyond-the-pharaohs-and-shines-a-light-a6828166.html

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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896

    A halfway credible and competent opposition would be making hay right now, what with the referendum, the Google tax fiasco, the pensions grab, the tax credit climbdown and so on. The government has had a very poor time of it since the election. But it is unscathed because Labour is led by a moron who surrounds himself with morons.

    That is the real tragedy of Corbyn. The Labour party have no time for anything other than their own feuding. Never has such a thin government majority seemed so secure.
    Well said. An effective democracy needs an effective opposition, who can portray themselves as an alternative government in waiting. When the bunch (sic) on the opposition benches can let the PM breeze through a Wednesday lunchtime turned up to 3, is when mistakes get made by the incumbents.

    We should be now in the pre-budget phase, with ideas being floated and discussed as to what might be the way forward for the country's finances. Instead all we have heard so far is an obscure-to-most discussion of higher rate relief for pensions, which is being attacked only from the right.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    It will be interesting to see if Sweden removes 80k people from its territory..
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Sandpit, quite. Corbyn's a blight not merely upon Labour, but upon the entire body politic.

    Miss Plato, I think outragephilia is the most bizarre fetish since I discovered some people are aroused by blinking.

    Mr. Charles, can you reassure us this is a serious event, and not just a pyramid scheme?

    :p
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I'd a mini spat with Mr Blanchflower about this last week. He said Osborne had stopped austerity after two yrs so his prediction blah blah.

    Alistair said:

    I don't know Blanchflowers predictions but was his mass unemployment claim based on what Osborne said he was going to do (eliminate the deficit in a single parliament) or what he actually did ( follow Labour's spending plans)?

    His prediction of five million unemployed was based on what Osborne said he was going to do, which was in fact quite close to what he did do. The slower reduction in deficit came largely as a result of the negative impact of the Euro-crisis on the UK economy.

    Osborne most certainly did not follow Labour's spending plans and was opposed at each and every turn by Miliband and Balls. While Darling had a nominal objective of halving the deficit by the end of the parliament (which is what I presume you refer to), he never laid out plans to get there, and nor did his successors.

    In any case, even if there was a deviation between what Osborne said he'd do and what he actually did, it doesn't go anywhere near far enough to explain the discrepancy between on the one hand Blanchflower's predictions of unemployment much worse than the 1980s, and on the other, the reality of the highest employment of all time.
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    edited January 2016
    RobD said:

    Doing some modelling of Osborne's pension tax relief changes.... If the worst case scenario of abolishing salary sacrifice and restricting ta relief to 25% entails then Ian looking at a £200k reduction in my pension pot at retirement.

    It would also mean I'm subject to a 69%marginal tax rate (42% tax and NI, 9% student loan and George's 18% additional 'child benefit' tax rate too.

    This is far worse than anything Brown ever did to pensions.

    I wonder if there will be a big increase in the higher rate threshold in the budget as a sop?

    What is the 18% rate? is that where you claim CB but have to pay it back through taxation?
    Correct. I have two kids so nominally eligible for about £1800 a year, but have to pay £18 back for every £100 I earn over £50k. So an 18% rate.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987

    It will be interesting to see if Sweden removes 80k people from its territory..

    I think meaningful numbers of deportations would make a big difference to the migrant flow. You risk life and limb because you think you'll get a better life in the West. If there is a significant chance that you are risking your life to end up back where you started, then the incentive is greatly reduced.
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    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, latest news from Spain. Plans for a PSOE + Podemos coalition have been dealt a blow by the Basque National Party, which has said it will not support a government that has Podemos in it.

    It's incredibly hard to see how Spain avoids another set of elections. PP + C is short of a majority, and C won't support the PP without the head of Rajoy. Podemos has managed to lose a couple of its MPs for no entirely obvious reason, and even if they hadn't PSOE + P would still require pretty much all the nationalist parties to support it.

    The only stable coalition would be PP + PSOE, but the PSOE is scared it will lose votes to Podemos if it gets into bed with the PP.

    Opinion polls show the PP and Podemos up on the last election, with both Citizen's and the PSOE down. Another election would probably (and it's only probably) show a slight swing towards the PP + C grouping, but almost certainly not enough to get it over the 50% mark.

    A grand coalition is possible (20% possibility), as is a PP (propped up by Citizen's) minority government (15%), but I'd reckon the most likely outcome (65%) is new elections in March or April.

    Rajoy is the big obstacle. Someone in PP (or maybe even the King) needs to have a word with him. If he goes it will open up a much wider range of possibilities.

    Yesterday a new corruption scandal involving PP came to light in Valencia. It's not a party that's going to get close to a majority any time soon.

  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Apparently, I blink quite a lot. Been told it's rather attractive. I assume they mean in a coquettish rather than Benny Hill way :wink:

    Mr. Sandpit, quite. Corbyn's a blight not merely upon Labour, but upon the entire body politic.

    Miss Plato, I think outragephilia is the most bizarre fetish since I discovered some people are aroused by blinking.

    Mr. Charles, can you reassure us this is a serious event, and not just a pyramid scheme?

    :p

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2016

    Mr. Sandpit, quite. Corbyn's a blight not merely upon Labour, but upon the entire body politic.

    Miss Plato, I think outragephilia is the most bizarre fetish since I discovered some people are aroused by blinking.

    Mr. Charles, can you reassure us this is a serious event, and not just a pyramid scheme?

    :p

    To be fair, the outrage bus is popular on the right as much as the left. Indeed the PB Kipper outrage charabanc is always standing room only!
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    #BunchGate is the distillation of their current idiocy.

    A halfway credible and competent opposition would be making hay right now, what with the referendum, the Google tax fiasco, the pensions grab, the tax credit climbdown and so on. The government has had a very poor time of it since the election. But it is unscathed because Labour is led by a moron who surrounds himself with morons.

    That is the real tragedy of Corbyn. The Labour party have no time for anything other than their own feuding. Never has such a thin government majority seemed so secure.
    And yet it wasn't just the Corbynists jumping on that bandwagon (are we allowed to use 'bandwagon'?). Chukka Ummuna was just as vocal and outraged. Even Robert Peston was tweeting that Corbyn missed an opportunity in the House when he didn't pick up on "bunch" (but then maybe that's a measure of Peston's declining skills and influence).

    For what it's worth, I asked my wife what she thought about Cameron using the term. In general, Jenny is well to the left of me but not particularly party political. Instinctively I think she'd be a Green although at local elections she'll vote on the merits of the individual and at national ones, competence also comes fairly strongly into play. Her thoughts were that it depended on the context in which the PM used it (she didn't see or hear PMQs), that of itself the term isn't offensive, that whether it is or not depends on the context in which it's used but that 'group' or 'collection' would have been better. So if someone with natural sympathies for the left-of-centre and for refugees in general isn't offended by the term in general, it's unlikely that Labour will gain any traction with swing voters.
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    And

    BoJo EU-turn: Double blow to Brexit fight as Johnson and Gove opt to stay

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6891299/Boris-Johnson-Michael-Gove-back-EU-Remain-campaign.html

    This isn't news.
    I had hoped Gove would change his mind back.

    I'm a big fan of Gove generally, I said the other day he'd get my vote in a Tory leadership election
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited January 2016
    The Danes confiscating property of migrants is clearly a Eff Off move. They're apparently applying Danish law to the new arrivals as they do with nationals.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/danish-mps-vote-seizing-valuables-refugees-160126055035636.html
    The Danish parliament has passed a package of measures to deter refugees from seeking asylum, including confiscating valuables to pay for their stay, despite protests from international human rights organisations.

    The measures, which include extending the reunification time period after which family members outside can rejoin refugees in the country from one year to three years, were passed by an overwhelming majority on Tuesday.
    rcs1000 said:

    It will be interesting to see if Sweden removes 80k people from its territory..

    I think meaningful numbers of deportations would make a big difference to the migrant flow. You risk life and limb because you think you'll get a better life in the West. If there is a significant chance that you are risking your life to end up back where you started, then the incentive is greatly reduced.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Incredibly, a newsman Neville Thurlbeck ex NOTW seriously claimed yesterday it was the same as BigotGate and be Cameron's political epitaph.

    Miss Plato, the bunch non-story is just weird.

    Had he said 'boatload of migrants' that might have been true (and even then, probably not). But he didn't.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    I'd a mini spat with Mr Blanchflower about this last week. He said Osborne had stopped austerity after two yrs so his prediction blah blah.

    Alistair said:

    I don't know Blanchflowers predictions but was his mass unemployment claim based on what Osborne said he was going to do (eliminate the deficit in a single parliament) or what he actually did ( follow Labour's spending plans)?

    His prediction of five million unemployed was based on what Osborne said he was going to do, which was in fact quite close to what he did do. The slower reduction in deficit came largely as a result of the negative impact of the Euro-crisis on the UK economy.

    Osborne most certainly did not follow Labour's spending plans and was opposed at each and every turn by Miliband and Balls. While Darling had a nominal objective of halving the deficit by the end of the parliament (which is what I presume you refer to), he never laid out plans to get there, and nor did his successors.

    In any case, even if there was a deviation between what Osborne said he'd do and what he actually did, it doesn't go anywhere near far enough to explain the discrepancy between on the one hand Blanchflower's predictions of unemployment much worse than the 1980s, and on the other, the reality of the highest employment of all time.
    But even if you accept that (and I don't), it doesn't explain why unemployment was more-or-less static during those first two years.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2016
    Charles said:

    I would love to have another look at Egypt but not for a good while yet.

    Well you can always come down to London and come to my exhibition of Egyptian stuff (mainly from museums near you but which you have probably never been to!)

    Opens tonight, and getting rave reviews - focused on "hardworking citizens" rather than the Pharaohs as we thought that a nice angle

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/features/new-exhibition-transforming-the-body-in-ancient-egypt-looks-beyond-the-pharaohs-and-shines-a-light-a6828166.html

    I am down in the Smoke for a weekend shortly, with a free half day so may well have time to take it in. Thanks.

    If only the peoples of MENA valued and took inspiration from their rich cultural heritage as much as we in the West did, the world would be a better place.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Doing some modelling of Osborne's pension tax relief changes.... If the worst case scenario of abolishing salary sacrifice and restricting ta relief to 25% entails then I am looking at a £150-200k reduction in my pension pot at retirement.

    It would also mean I'm subject to a 69%marginal tax rate (42% tax and NI, 9% student loan and George's 18% additional 'child benefit' tax rate too.

    This is far worse than anything Brown ever did to pensions.

    I wonder if there will be a big increase in the higher rate threshold in the budget as a sop?

    I am in tears on your behalf. For most people a pension pot of £200K can only be dreamed of.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836

    #BunchGate is the distillation of their current idiocy.

    A halfway credible and competent opposition would be making hay right now, what with the referendum, the Google tax fiasco, the pensions grab, the tax credit climbdown and so on. The government has had a very poor time of it since the election. But it is unscathed because Labour is led by a moron who surrounds himself with morons.

    That is the real tragedy of Corbyn. The Labour party have no time for anything other than their own feuding. Never has such a thin government majority seemed so secure.
    And yet it wasn't just the Corbynists jumping on that bandwagon (are we allowed to use 'bandwagon'?). Chukka Ummuna was just as vocal and outraged. Even Robert Peston was tweeting that Corbyn missed an opportunity in the House when he didn't pick up on "bunch" (but then maybe that's a measure of Peston's declining skills and influence).

    For what it's worth, I asked my wife what she thought about Cameron using the term. In general, Jenny is well to the left of me but not particularly party political. Instinctively I think she'd be a Green although at local elections she'll vote on the merits of the individual and at national ones, competence also comes fairly strongly into play. Her thoughts were that it depended on the context in which the PM used it (she didn't see or hear PMQs), that of itself the term isn't offensive, that whether it is or not depends on the context in which it's used but that 'group' or 'collection' would have been better. So if someone with natural sympathies for the left-of-centre and for refugees in general isn't offended by the term in general, it's unlikely that Labour will gain any traction with swing voters.
    It shows what a pickle the Labour Right is in. The issues that they'd die in the ditch for are defending mass immigration, and supporting EU integration, neither of which put them on the right side of public opinion.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    rcs1000 said:

    It will be interesting to see if Sweden removes 80k people from its territory..

    I think meaningful numbers of deportations would make a big difference to the migrant flow. You risk life and limb because you think you'll get a better life in the West. If there is a significant chance that you are risking your life to end up back where you started, then the incentive is greatly reduced.
    It will be interesting to see what the proposal is as to where they should be deported to. I can see Human Rights cases clogging the system up for years.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Given how many are using lorries, a shedload would be another.

    Incredibly, a newsman Neville Thurlbeck ex NOTW seriously claimed yesterday it was the same as BigotGate and be Cameron's political epitaph.

    Miss Plato, the bunch non-story is just weird.

    Had he said 'boatload of migrants' that might have been true (and even then, probably not). But he didn't.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    david herdson Why should Cameron have knowledge of how those migrants arrived at Calais..A Bunch describes them very well..it is a good old English word to describe a group,gathering,collection...etc
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    I do wish the dog came with a mute button...

    Her predecessor was lovely and quiet.
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    edited January 2016

    The Danes confiscating property of migrants is clearly a Eff Off move. They're apparently applying Danish law to the new arrivals as they do with nationals.

    except they're not planning to search nationals to confiscate their valuables (As i understand it)
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Me neither, but he seemed very touchy - and became rude. So I left him to it.

    I'd a mini spat with Mr Blanchflower about this last week. He said Osborne had stopped austerity after two yrs so his prediction blah blah.

    Alistair said:

    I don't know Blanchflowers predictions but was his mass unemployment claim based on what Osborne said he was going to do (eliminate the deficit in a single parliament) or what he actually did ( follow Labour's spending plans)?

    His prediction of five million unemployed was based on what Osborne said he was going to do, which was in fact quite close to what he did do. The slower reduction in deficit came largely as a result of the negative impact of the Euro-crisis on the UK economy.

    Osborne most certainly did not follow Labour's spending plans and was opposed at each and every turn by Miliband and Balls. While Darling had a nominal objective of halving the deficit by the end of the parliament (which is what I presume you refer to), he never laid out plans to get there, and nor did his successors.

    In any case, even if there was a deviation between what Osborne said he'd do and what he actually did, it doesn't go anywhere near far enough to explain the discrepancy between on the one hand Blanchflower's predictions of unemployment much worse than the 1980s, and on the other, the reality of the highest employment of all time.
    But even if you accept that (and I don't), it doesn't explain why unemployment was more-or-less static during those first two years.
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    I'd a mini spat with Mr Blanchflower about this last week. He said Osborne had stopped austerity after two yrs so his prediction blah blah.

    Alistair said:

    I don't know Blanchflowers predictions but was his mass unemployment claim based on what Osborne said he was going to do (eliminate the deficit in a single parliament) or what he actually did ( follow Labour's spending plans)?

    His prediction of five million unemployed was based on what Osborne said he was going to do, which was in fact quite close to what he did do. The slower reduction in deficit came largely as a result of the negative impact of the Euro-crisis on the UK economy.

    Osborne most certainly did not follow Labour's spending plans and was opposed at each and every turn by Miliband and Balls. While Darling had a nominal objective of halving the deficit by the end of the parliament (which is what I presume you refer to), he never laid out plans to get there, and nor did his successors.

    In any case, even if there was a deviation between what Osborne said he'd do and what he actually did, it doesn't go anywhere near far enough to explain the discrepancy between on the one hand Blanchflower's predictions of unemployment much worse than the 1980s, and on the other, the reality of the highest employment of all time.
    But even if you accept that (and I don't), it doesn't explain why unemployment was more-or-less static during those first two years.
    Thanks for your kind words earlier.

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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    david herdson Why should Cameron have knowledge of how those migrants arrived at Calais..A Bunch describes them very well..it is a good old English word to describe a group,gathering,collection...etc

    I agree. I was simply passing on anecdotal evidence from my focus group of one.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758


    Mr. Charles, can you reassure us this is a serious event, and not just a pyramid scheme?

    :p

    All donations welcome! Free entry is expensive and I'd rather allocate the funds elsewhere!

    But click on the link - the picture is one of my favourite pieces: a fat Roman civil servant pretending to be a pharaoh :p
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    May I suggest looking up Cesar Milan on Google? He's the dog whisperer and his site may have a training answer.

    I do wish the dog came with a mute button...

    Her predecessor was lovely and quiet.

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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    I'm unconvinced by the article's argument.

    The biggest advantage Remain has is fear of the unknown. But if the known becomes less attractive (migrant crisis, economic woe etc) then the unknown becomes less fearful.

    Exactly what I wanted to say. – Cheers for providing the polite retort. :wink:
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    titter.....

    The more I hear SNP politicians recycle the arguments used against Scottish independence the more sympathetic I become to the advocates of Brexit. Do we seriously believe that Britain would be too poor, too wee and too stupid to survive on its own outside this discredited union with its dysfunctional currency union and democratic deficit?


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14234969.Iain_Macwhirter__Risk_of_a_rebound_for_SNP_by_embracing_negative_pro_EU_campaign/
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited January 2016

    Doing some modelling of Osborne's pension tax relief changes.... If the worst case scenario of abolishing salary sacrifice and restricting ta relief to 25% entails then I am looking at a £150-200k reduction in my pension pot at retirement.

    It would also mean I'm subject to a 69%marginal tax rate (42% tax and NI, 9% student loan and George's 18% additional 'child benefit' tax rate too.

    This is far worse than anything Brown ever did to pensions.

    I wonder if there will be a big increase in the higher rate threshold in the budget as a sop?

    I am in tears on your behalf. For most people a pension pot of £200K can only be dreamed of.
    I disagree with the % quoted too - Brown's lot brought in a marginal rate of tax of 62% from £100k as the personal allowance is withdrawn and if we add in the 9% student loan eg mentioned, then that's 71%.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927

    FFS

    Brighton school children asked to choose from list of 23 terms to describe their gender - https://t.co/4x7kdtKrxL https://t.co/m6oFgYzNjo

    The tip of the iceberg

    https://twitter.com/mailonline/status/692477518453063680
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,329

    And

    BoJo EU-turn: Double blow to Brexit fight as Johnson and Gove opt to stay

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6891299/Boris-Johnson-Michael-Gove-back-EU-Remain-campaign.html

    This isn't news.
    I had hoped Gove would change his mind back.

    I'm a big fan of Gove generally, I said the other day he'd get my vote in a Tory leadership election
    I like him and find him very interesting.

    I can't deny I'm disappointed about his position on Remain although, in his case, I understand why whereas Boris has no excuse.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,329

    Doing some modelling of Osborne's pension tax relief changes.... If the worst case scenario of abolishing salary sacrifice and restricting ta relief to 25% entails then I am looking at a £150-200k reduction in my pension pot at retirement.

    It would also mean I'm subject to a 69%marginal tax rate (42% tax and NI, 9% student loan and George's 18% additional 'child benefit' tax rate too.

    This is far worse than anything Brown ever did to pensions.

    I wonder if there will be a big increase in the higher rate threshold in the budget as a sop?

    You thought Osborne was on our side?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,994
    Not sure if this has been mentioned yet: the Challenger disaster was thirty years ago today.

    The US space program never really recovered.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,994
    It might be nice if the left could say what the correct and non-discriminative collective nouns for migrants are.

    But we should also address what the collective noun for Corbynites are. An 'insanity' of Corynites? A 'clueless' of Corbynites? A 'loathing' of Corbynites?
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    #BunchGate is the distillation of their current idiocy.

    A halfway credible and competent opposition would be making hay right now, what with the referendum, the Google tax fiasco, the pensions grab, the tax credit climbdown and so on. The government has had a very poor time of it since the election. But it is unscathed because Labour is led by a moron who surrounds himself with morons.

    That is the real tragedy of Corbyn. The Labour party have no time for anything other than their own feuding. Never has such a thin government majority seemed so secure.
    And yet it wasn't just the Corbynists jumping on that bandwagon (are we allowed to use 'bandwagon'?). Chukka Ummuna was just as vocal and outraged. Even Robert Peston was tweeting that Corbyn missed an opportunity in the House when he didn't pick up on "bunch" (but then maybe that's a measure of Peston's declining skills and influence).

    For what it's worth, I asked my wife what she thought about Cameron using the term. In general, Jenny is well to the left of me but not particularly party political. Instinctively I think she'd be a Green although at local elections she'll vote on the merits of the individual and at national ones, competence also comes fairly strongly into play. Her thoughts were that it depended on the context in which the PM used it (she didn't see or hear PMQs), that of itself the term isn't offensive, that whether it is or not depends on the context in which it's used but that 'group' or 'collection' would have been better. So if someone with natural sympathies for the left-of-centre and for refugees in general isn't offended by the term in general, it's unlikely that Labour will gain any traction with swing voters.

    I have not heard it, but calling a large group of people with very different stories a "bunch of migrants" does sound pretty dismissive to me. It potentially conveys contempt for individuals living in atrocious conditions whose motivations are often complex and whose experiences are sometimes truly tragic. It sounds like Cameron was using the phrase to have a dig at Corbyn. That only works if these people are thought of as dismissible.

    I am not surprised many on the left have expressed dismay and anger at the words and how they were used. I think they are absolutely genuine in doing so. This looks to me to be a case of very different world views. We are all sensitive to different things.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    I'd a mini spat with Mr Blanchflower about this last week. He said Osborne had stopped austerity after two yrs so his prediction blah blah.

    Alistair said:

    I don't know Blanchflowers predictions but was his mass unemployment claim based on what Osborne said he was going to do (eliminate the deficit in a single parliament) or what he actually did ( follow Labour's spending plans)?

    His prediction of five million unemployed was based on what Osborne said he was going to do, which was in fact quite close to what he did do. The slower reduction in deficit came largely as a result of the negative impact of the Euro-crisis on the UK economy.

    Osborne most certainly did not follow Labour's spending plans and was opposed at each and every turn by Miliband and Balls. While Darling had a nominal objective of halving the deficit by the end of the parliament (which is what I presume you refer to), he never laid out plans to get there, and nor did his successors.

    In any case, even if there was a deviation between what Osborne said he'd do and what he actually did, it doesn't go anywhere near far enough to explain the discrepancy between on the one hand Blanchflower's predictions of unemployment much worse than the 1980s, and on the other, the reality of the highest employment of all time.
    But even if you accept that (and I don't), it doesn't explain why unemployment was more-or-less static during those first two years.
    Effective implementation of the compliance regimes within the welfare state.

    Basically, job-centres doing exactly what they are supposed to have been doing according to the law for the last sixty plus years. IDS really did play a blinder.

    Remember Poundland Slave Labour woman? There were thousands of people like her wanting the right to be picky whilst claiming for an eternity, and many others whose incapacity for work had been significantly exaggerated.

    Morale among DWP staff was rising fastest at one point under IDS, if memory serves me right. He was simply telling them to apply the rules that they had soft-pedalled on for years.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    And one of the greatest understatements
    Obviously a major malfunction.

    — Stephen A Nesbitt, NASA Public Affairs Officer, live on air, just moments after the Space Shuttle Challenger exploded, 28 January 1986.

    Not sure if this has been mentioned yet: the Challenger disaster was thirty years ago today.

    The US space program never really recovered.

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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'I can't deny I'm disappointed about his position on Remain although, in his case, I understand '

    Well I don't. Issues of such crucial importance to the UK should not be decided on the basis of personal friendships. That is just cronyism.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836

    And

    BoJo EU-turn: Double blow to Brexit fight as Johnson and Gove opt to stay

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6891299/Boris-Johnson-Michael-Gove-back-EU-Remain-campaign.html

    This isn't news.
    I had hoped Gove would change his mind back.

    I'm a big fan of Gove generally, I said the other day he'd get my vote in a Tory leadership election
    I like him and find him very interesting.

    I can't deny I'm disappointed about his position on Remain although, in his case, I understand why whereas Boris has no excuse.
    It must be very frustrating to sit on a selection committee, and choose an ostensibly eurosceptic candidate, who then decides that keeping in with George Osborne is more important than acting in accordance with his principles.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Doing some modelling of Osborne's pension tax relief changes.... If the worst case scenario of abolishing salary sacrifice and restricting ta relief to 25% entails then I am looking at a £150-200k reduction in my pension pot at retirement.

    It would also mean I'm subject to a 69%marginal tax rate (42% tax and NI, 9% student loan and George's 18% additional 'child benefit' tax rate too.

    This is far worse than anything Brown ever did to pensions.

    I wonder if there will be a big increase in the higher rate threshold in the budget as a sop?

    You thought Osborne was on our side?
    His super Google tax deal is now going to get the run over by the EU to see if it's state aid.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/financialservices/legal-and-tax-advice/12126786/HMRC-sweetheart-tax-deal-with-Google-set-to-be-investigated-by-the-EU-to-see-if-it-broke-state-aid-rules.html
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,329
    Sean_F said:

    #BunchGate is the distillation of their current idiocy.

    A halfway credible and competent opposition would be making hay right now, what with the referendum, the Google tax fiasco, the pensions grab, the tax credit climbdown and so on. The government has had a very poor time of it since the election. But it is unscathed because Labour is led by a moron who surrounds himself with morons.

    That is the real tragedy of Corbyn. The Labour party have no time for anything other than their own feuding. Never has such a thin government majority seemed so secure.
    And yet it wasn't just the Corbynists jumping on that bandwagon (are we allowed to use 'bandwagon'?). Chukka Ummuna was just as vocal and outraged. Even Robert Peston was tweeting that Corbyn missed an opportunity in the House when he didn't pick up on "bunch" (but then maybe that's a measure of Peston's declining skills and influence).

    For what it's worth, I asked my wife what she thought about Cameron using the term. In general, Jenny is well to the left of me but not particularly party political. Instinctively I think she'd be a Green although at local elections she'll vote on the merits of the individual and at national ones, competence also comes fairly strongly into play. Her thoughts were that it depended on the context in which the PM used it (she didn't see or hear PMQs), that of itself the term isn't offensive, that whether it is or not depends on the context in which it's used but that 'group' or 'collection' would have been better. So if someone with natural sympathies for the left-of-centre and for refugees in general isn't offended by the term in general, it's unlikely that Labour will gain any traction with swing voters.
    It shows what a pickle the Labour Right is in. The issues that they'd die in the ditch for are defending mass immigration, and supporting EU integration, neither of which put them on the right side of public opinion.
    That's putting it very mildly. We even have a poster on here who thinks Transgenderism is the biggest issue of the day.

    Until Labour move on from their obsession with the identity politics of the mid 60s to mid 90s, they will never regain power. The trouble is that they move in social circles of media, arts, charities, think tanks, and political researchers who all think as they do.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Identity politics is the future I'm afraid. The good news is Labour is 100% on the wrong side of that.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    And

    BoJo EU-turn: Double blow to Brexit fight as Johnson and Gove opt to stay

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6891299/Boris-Johnson-Michael-Gove-back-EU-Remain-campaign.html

    Spintastic stuff.

    Cameron has asked ministers not to campaign until the deal is agreed.

    I can't see any minister campaigning for in or out yet.


    Gove and Boris are awaiting the deal - good discipline.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    edited January 2016

    Not sure if this has been mentioned yet: the Challenger disaster was thirty years ago today.

    The US space program never really recovered.

    The shuttle had alot of accomplishments, the ISS and probably the Hubble repair being the top two that I can think of.

    But fundamentally it always felt like a step back from Apollo. I mean that got to the moon !

    RIP Challenger crew
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    This week's full #bbcqt line up in Stamford, Lincolnshire: https://t.co/hnOr2doHs3
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