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  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    A Victor would take you to Capri

    Spitfires Herald the Anglia way.

    Charles said:

    Opel My God

    Hello Plato
    Stats....
    77% of car industry favours continued membership of EU.
    Over 75% of cars built went to export with nearly 60% going to the EU. The motor industry accounts for nearly 12% of all exports ... £15 billion.
    800,000 people employed by the industry.
    SMMT Chief says the EU is 'vital for the future' and 'leaving would put many of these jobs at risk'
    Toyota deputy managing director say leaving would 'open up a very uncertain future of technical difficulties and increased costs'
    (Autocar survey)
    So carry on Miss Plato (and others) carry on campaining to 'put many of these jobs at risk' .

    You can see what forms Carney's opinions.

    PS
    Peter Bone has a nerve... he was happy to be jovial sharing a platform with Galloway. (And some people wonder why I use the word 'odious'.) This is before you get to Farage.

    Someone had better tell the mugs that are investing £2billion in the UK car industry then.

    How has the UK car industry performed since the doomsday scenario of not joining the Euro?
    Mugs earning the nation a fortune. The car industry is an amazing (foreign owned) success. Massive investment based on it being in the EU.
    You just carry on 'putting all these jobs at risk'. Your cavalier attitude to reality is shameful.
    Oh dear, perhaps you should have reread this before you posted it.
    iI used to have a Cavalier attiitude but then GM transferred all the production to Germany.
    Think he Nayl-ored it. Quite a Triumph (although only really a Minor one). You can Reliant on @Alanbrooke though
    A Ben Elton joke:

    In the old days you could get pawed in a Ford, do it in a Buick and have it away in Chevrolet. Nowadays, sadly, you can do f-all in a Vauxhall.
  • glwglw Posts: 6,365

    Excellent point from Cameron about segregated meetings. One disgusting aspect of the Labour party.

    Have relations between the Corbynites and moderates really become that bad?
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    edited March 2016

    SeanT said:

    YouGov
    The honeymoon is over: government approval is back in decline – https://t.co/GFLXWK4vvu https://t.co/NrEaRDXdQA

    That will worry REMAIN. If the referendum is seen by Labour, Nat and Lib voters as a chance to kick Cameron, then it is lost. This becomes more likely as his popularity fades.
    This is what I've been saying for ages and will continue to. Most labour voters (remember the Islington luvvies are a minority) loathe the tories and are ambivalent about the EU.

    They will relish putting the boot in on a posh tory toff.

    For clarification, I don't care that Cameron is either posh or a toff but the class warriors do. Leave need to continually point out that Goldman Sachs (ie the bankers) are supporting Remain and strengthen the link between the tories and the banks.

    Note to the Remainder tories: you've slagged off labour voters for decades, those chickens may well be about to be counted.
    One other thing, I always thought the class warriors hated the multinational corporations yet staying in the EU will help them to crush the little guy even further, to say nothing about workers wages being kept low.

    There are so many square pegs in round holes with the two main parties that I cannot see anything other than a seismic shift in politics in the coming years.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'Being in the single market has unquestionably benefited us.'

    Scholarly evidence please. Has UK trend growth per head increased? Or UK export growth improved to the EU? etc. And can we robustly link shifts in these kinds of aggregates to the single market?

    Even the EU's own research suggests the single market has been pretty disappointing.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,043
    edited March 2016
    So far the only swing state Hillary has pulled any trees up in is Virginia. Performed poorly in Colorado and band average in Nevada.

    That Michigan result could well be an omen for the General. Minnesota similiarly having a polling miss makes me wonder if she'll perform poorly in OH, WI, PA too.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Red Box
    Getting the message: the effectiveness of the Tory election strategy: https://t.co/Rznt7x9alu https://t.co/6NOjloLD1Z
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    SeanT said:

    YouGov
    The honeymoon is over: government approval is back in decline – https://t.co/GFLXWK4vvu https://t.co/NrEaRDXdQA

    That will worry REMAIN. If the referendum is seen by Labour, Nat and Lib voters as a chance to kick Cameron, then it is lost. This becomes more likely as his popularity fades.
    This is what I've been saying for ages and will continue to. Most labour voters (remember the Islington luvvies are a minority) loathe the tories and are ambivalent about the EU.

    They will relish putting the boot in on a posh tory toff.

    For clarification, I don't care that Cameron is either posh or a toff but the class warriors do. Leave need to continually point out that Goldman Sachs (ie the bankers) are supporting Remain and strengthen the link between the tories and the banks.

    Note to the Remainder tories: you've slagged off labour voters for decades, those chickens may well be about to be counted.
    One other thing, I always thought the class warriors hated the multinational corporations yet staying in the EU will help them to crush the little guy even further, to say nothing about workers wages being kept low.

    There are so many square pegs in round holes with the two main parties that I cannot see anything other than a seismic shift in politics in the coming years.
    Correct, this is going to get nasty.

    I'm not involved in any campaign, if I was I'd get millions of leaflets to the estates showing Cameron, Osborne, the bankers and big corporations smiling under the EU flag.

    The headline would be:

    Vote Remain for more of this lot.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Wild animals in circuses?
  • LucyJonesLucyJones Posts: 646

    SeanT said:

    YouGov
    The honeymoon is over: government approval is back in decline – https://t.co/GFLXWK4vvu https://t.co/NrEaRDXdQA

    That will worry REMAIN. If the referendum is seen by Labour, Nat and Lib voters as a chance to kick Cameron, then it is lost. This becomes more likely as his popularity fades.
    This is what I've been saying for ages and will continue to. Most labour voters (remember the Islington luvvies are a minority) loathe the tories and are ambivalent about the EU.

    They will relish putting the boot in on a posh tory toff.

    For clarification, I don't care that Cameron is either posh or a toff but the class warriors do. Leave need to continually point out that Goldman Sachs (ie the bankers) are supporting Remain and strengthen the link between the tories and the banks.

    Note to the Remainder tories: you've slagged off labour voters for decades, those chickens may well be about to be counted.
    I'm not convinced that there is much chance of Leave picking up lots of Labour voters who simply want to put the boot into Cameron. Too many people take the (anti-democratic, in my opinion) view that the EU has been good for the UK in terms of "giving" us workers' rights, equality legislation and so on that the "evil Tories" would destroy, given half a chance.

  • Pulpstar said:

    So far the only swing state Hillary has pulled any trees up in is Virginia. Performed poorly in Colorado and band average in Nevada.

    That Michigan result could well be an omen for the General. Minnesota similiarly having a polling miss makes me wonder if she'll perform poorly in OH, WI, PA too.

    My logic in backing Hillary to win in November is Dems will unite and back her because her

    1) Opponent is Trump

    2) The next POTUS may well get to appoint four justices to the Supreme Court.

    That wil also boost turnout in her favour.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    LucyJones said:

    SeanT said:

    YouGov
    The honeymoon is over: government approval is back in decline – https://t.co/GFLXWK4vvu https://t.co/NrEaRDXdQA

    That will worry REMAIN. If the referendum is seen by Labour, Nat and Lib voters as a chance to kick Cameron, then it is lost. This becomes more likely as his popularity fades.
    This is what I've been saying for ages and will continue to. Most labour voters (remember the Islington luvvies are a minority) loathe the tories and are ambivalent about the EU.

    They will relish putting the boot in on a posh tory toff.

    For clarification, I don't care that Cameron is either posh or a toff but the class warriors do. Leave need to continually point out that Goldman Sachs (ie the bankers) are supporting Remain and strengthen the link between the tories and the banks.

    Note to the Remainder tories: you've slagged off labour voters for decades, those chickens may well be about to be counted.
    I'm not convinced that there is much chance of Leave picking up lots of Labour voters who simply want to put the boot into Cameron. Too many people take the (anti-democratic, in my opinion) view that the EU has been good for the UK in terms of "giving" us workers' rights, equality legislation and so on that the "evil Tories" would destroy, given half a chance.

    They may not vote Leave but plenty will abstain.

    Leave wins on a low turnout has been my prediction all along.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,702
    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    Who leaked the Sun story?

    There were present: the Rt. Hon. Nicholas Clegg MP (Lord President), the Rt. Hon. Michael Gove MP (Secretary of State, Department for Education), the Rt. Hon. Cheryl Gillan MP (Secretary of State for Wales) and the Lord McNally (Minister of State, Ministry of Justice).

    Might that have been followed by lunch? If you can spot any anti-EU highly reliable senior sources in there, you win today's "Elementary, my dear Watson" Sherlock Holmes prize.


    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/daily-catch-up-who-could-have-told-the-sun-the-queen-backed-brexit-a6920601.html


    I think Gove is in deep trouble if he proves to be the source of the leak, either directly or indirectly. I seriously doubt he has leaked directly but it is feasible that he has said something to somebody that has.
    Like the PM was in deep trouble when he bragged about HMQ 'purring on the line' to an American?
    Chalk & Cheese. The cameron incident barely raised a political ripple, the Sun article has landed the Monarchy right in the deep doo doo
    You seem to think everyone is in deep something, but haven't shown how.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,348

    SeanT said:

    YouGov
    The honeymoon is over: government approval is back in decline – https://t.co/GFLXWK4vvu https://t.co/NrEaRDXdQA

    That will worry REMAIN. If the referendum is seen by Labour, Nat and Lib voters as a chance to kick Cameron, then it is lost. This becomes more likely as his popularity fades.
    This is what I've been saying for ages and will continue to. Most labour voters (remember the Islington luvvies are a minority) loathe the tories and are ambivalent about the EU.

    They will relish putting the boot in on a posh tory toff.

    For clarification, I don't care that Cameron is either posh or a toff but the class warriors do. Leave need to continually point out that Goldman Sachs (ie the bankers) are supporting Remain and strengthen the link between the tories and the banks.

    Note to the Remainder tories: you've slagged off labour voters for decades, those chickens may well be about to be counted.
    One other thing, I always thought the class warriors hated the multinational corporations yet staying in the EU will help them to crush the little guy even further, to say nothing about workers wages being kept low.

    (snip)
    I'm not sure that's correct. If the EU as a whole decides to tackle misbehaviour by multinational corporations they'd have more power and influence to do so than the UK alone.

    But that would require the EU to tackle the misbehaviour. Mind you, the same thing goes for an independent UK as well...
  • Effing red tory, why doesn't he just go and join...

    Mike Smithson ‎@MSmithsonPB
    We've got another 4 years of tedious PMQs like this latest one to look forward to. Corbyn's as poor as IDS was in 2001-2003
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Reid Wilson
    Estimated delegates won last night: Trump 72, Cruz 61, Kasich 17, Rubio 0.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 1,851

    MaxPB said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    Good. The one thing that might have dragged me, kicking and screaming, into the remain camp would be the party having a bout of regicide and removing Cameron. He is the only choice for PM, there is no one else.
    There is no earthly way that David Cameron will stay Prime Minister for any length of time after a Leave vote. How on earth could he negotiate leaving terms? His credibility would be zero and he in any case would presumably have not the slightest appetite for the task.
    He likes winning (as an end, rather than a means) and would hate to depart as a loser. So he'd try to call a quick GE justified by the need to seek a mandate for the negotiation, which he'd believe he could win. Of course it might not be his choice, but if he moved quickly enough the party would have no choice to line up behind him, with his opponents being smeared Crosby-style as putting the economy at risk in this time of crisis, and allowing the apocalyptic risk of terrorist-sympathiser Corbyn/evil baby-eating Scots (etc) to run the country by destabilising the GE campaign with a leadership contest. And, tbf, you'd assume he'd increase the majority then stand down "triumphant" a year later.
  • DeafblokeDeafbloke Posts: 66

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    In that case, Mr Cameron needs to outline exactly what his plans for Brexit are, seeing as he is going to be the one implementing it.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    The Fix
    Polling in Michigan was way off. That happens more than we recognize. https://t.co/Y8AxyjR0h0 https://t.co/ZtYa7dctkb
  • Scott_P said:
    Own-goal Burgon impressing Boring Snoring Rachel.
  • Effing red tory, why doesn't he just go and join...

    Mike Smithson ‎@MSmithsonPB
    We've got another 4 years of tedious PMQs like this latest one to look forward to. Corbyn's as poor as IDS was in 2001-2003

    Nonsense.

    Corbyn = Christian Gross

    IDS = Poch.

    Relatively speaking
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 9,951
    edited March 2016

    Effing red tory, why doesn't he just go and join...

    Mike Smithson ‎@MSmithsonPB
    We've got another 4 years of tedious PMQs like this latest one to look forward to. Corbyn's as poor as IDS was in 2001-2003

    Nonsense.

    Corbyn = Christian Gross

    IDS = Poch.

    Relatively speaking
    and Ramos is? hang on I meant Santini...
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 11,927
    Although fully aware that it is the minority view, I'm interested to see, as predicted, that peak doctor sympathy remains the same, whilst the Govt is getting increased support.

    This always happens during strikes.

    And confirms the tactical approach of Hunt to not meet the hilarious demands of a politicised union. Very astute sir.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Effing red tory, why doesn't he just go and join...

    Mike Smithson ‎@MSmithsonPB
    We've got another 4 years of tedious PMQs like this latest one to look forward to. Corbyn's as poor as IDS was in 2001-2003

    Nonsense.

    Corbyn = Christian Gross

    IDS = Poch.

    Relatively speaking
    Nah, Poch = Churchill
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,265
    Deafbloke said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    In that case, Mr Cameron needs to outline exactly what his plans for Brexit are, seeing as he is going to be the one implementing it.
    It's quite adventurous for Leavers, having demonstrated that they are utterly clueless about what Leave might mean, to demand that the Prime Minister solve their problem for them.
  • Effing red tory, why doesn't he just go and join...

    Mike Smithson ‎@MSmithsonPB
    We've got another 4 years of tedious PMQs like this latest one to look forward to. Corbyn's as poor as IDS was in 2001-2003

    Nonsense.

    Corbyn = Christian Gross

    IDS = Poch.

    Relatively speaking
    and Ramos is?
    The special Juande won a trophy, so I reckon he's SuperMac
  • Effing red tory, why doesn't he just go and join...

    Mike Smithson ‎@MSmithsonPB
    We've got another 4 years of tedious PMQs like this latest one to look forward to. Corbyn's as poor as IDS was in 2001-2003

    Nonsense.

    Corbyn = Christian Gross

    IDS = Poch.

    Relatively speaking
    and Ramos is?
    The special Juande won a trophy, so I reckon he's SuperMac
    too quick... got the wrong one.
  • Effing red tory, why doesn't he just go and join...

    Mike Smithson ‎@MSmithsonPB
    We've got another 4 years of tedious PMQs like this latest one to look forward to. Corbyn's as poor as IDS was in 2001-2003

    Nonsense.

    Corbyn = Christian Gross

    IDS = Poch.

    Relatively speaking
    and Ramos is?
    The special Juande won a trophy, so I reckon he's SuperMac
    too quick... got the wrong one.
    Santini = Chamberlain
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,043
    For states that have "both" voted

    GOP: 11882711
    Dem: 8557807

    Clinton:5068814
    Trump: 4156907
    Snders: 3425298

    Dem turnout over GOP:

    Nevada
    Minnesota
    Vermont
    Maine
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 1,851
    SeanT said:

    Polruan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    Good. The one thing that might have dragged me, kicking and screaming, into the remain camp would be the party having a bout of regicide and removing Cameron. He is the only choice for PM, there is no one else.
    There is no earthly way that David Cameron will stay Prime Minister for any length of time after a Leave vote. How on earth could he negotiate leaving terms? His credibility would be zero and he in any case would presumably have not the slightest appetite for the task.
    He likes winning (as an end, rather than a means) and would hate to depart as a loser. So he'd try to call a quick GE justified by the need to seek a mandate for the negotiation, which he'd believe he could win. Of course it might not be his choice, but if he moved quickly enough the party would have no choice to line up behind him, with his opponents being smeared Crosby-style as putting the economy at risk in this time of crisis, and allowing the apocalyptic risk of terrorist-sympathiser Corbyn/evil baby-eating Scots (etc) to run the country by destabilising the GE campaign with a leadership contest. And, tbf, you'd assume he'd increase the majority then stand down "triumphant" a year later.
    Fixed Terms. He can't call a GE.

    Of course he would resign after a LEAVE vote, just as he would have resigned after a Scottish YES.

    He'd be the prime minister whose deal was so shit the country told him to stuff it, despite Cameron warning us that if we vote LEAVE there'll be plagues of toads and boils. On top of that he's already told us he's going, so what would be the point in his clinging to office, just to be mocked, jeered and ridiculed, and hated by all the europhiles?

    The idea he could stay on is comical. He'd quit within weeks.
    Two thirds of the House required to call an early GE under the FTPA. If Cameron stands up and proposes an early election resolution, there's no way Labour can say no. They'd spend the next 4 years being taunted as the party who were too scared to fight a general election because they couldn't agree on how to negotiate with the EU.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 9,951
    edited March 2016
    Richard Burgon-watch.... he was letting rip in more than one way, no wonder Ms Reeves was sneering so much at his PMQ...

    http://order-order.com/2015/05/27/big-feartie-which-snp-mp-gassed-the-chamber/


    Michael Deacon ✔ ‎@MichaelPDeacon
    Does Richard Burgon actually follow politics? Or is he a tourist who wandered into the chamber by accident?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Pulpstar said:

    So far the only swing state Hillary has pulled any trees up in is Virginia. Performed poorly in Colorado and band average in Nevada.

    That Michigan result could well be an omen for the General. Minnesota similiarly having a polling miss makes me wonder if she'll perform poorly in OH, WI, PA too.

    Don't get overly hung up on the nomination results in relation to the general election.

    In 08 Obama lost Michigan, Florida, New Jersey, Ohio and Pennsylvania to Clinton but won them all in the general election.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JoeWatts_: Interesting. Corbyn's spksman says his view is that the ldr is already automatically on ballot in any potential Labour leadership contest.

    Now, why would that question arise...?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    The doctors strike got about 20secs on Sky at 8am.

    It's all over as news
    Mortimer said:

    Although fully aware that it is the minority view, I'm interested to see, as predicted, that peak doctor sympathy remains the same, whilst the Govt is getting increased support.

    This always happens during strikes.

    And confirms the tactical approach of Hunt to not meet the hilarious demands of a politicised union. Very astute sir.

  • The Queen complains to the Press Watchdog over that Brexit article.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Polruan said:

    SeanT said:

    Polruan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    Good. The one thing that might have dragged me, kicking and screaming, into the remain camp would be the party having a bout of regicide and removing Cameron. He is the only choice for PM, there is no one else.
    There is no earthly way that David Cameron will stay Prime Minister for any length of time after a Leave vote. How on earth could he negotiate leaving terms? His credibility would be zero and he in any case would presumably have not the slightest appetite for the task.
    He likes winning (as an end, rather than a means) and would hate to depart as a loser. So he'd try to call a quick GE justified by the need to seek a mandate for the negotiation, which he'd believe he could win. Of course it might not be his choice, but if he moved quickly enough the party would have no choice to line up behind him, with his opponents being smeared Crosby-style as putting the economy at risk in this time of crisis, and allowing the apocalyptic risk of terrorist-sympathiser Corbyn/evil baby-eating Scots (etc) to run the country by destabilising the GE campaign with a leadership contest. And, tbf, you'd assume he'd increase the majority then stand down "triumphant" a year later.
    Fixed Terms. He can't call a GE.

    Of course he would resign after a LEAVE vote, just as he would have resigned after a Scottish YES.

    He'd be the prime minister whose deal was so shit the country told him to stuff it, despite Cameron warning us that if we vote LEAVE there'll be plagues of toads and boils. On top of that he's already told us he's going, so what would be the point in his clinging to office, just to be mocked, jeered and ridiculed, and hated by all the europhiles?

    The idea he could stay on is comical. He'd quit within weeks.
    Two thirds of the House required to call an early GE under the FTPA. If Cameron stands up and proposes an early election resolution, there's no way Labour can say no. They'd spend the next 4 years being taunted as the party who were too scared to fight a general election because they couldn't agree on how to negotiate with the EU.
    Labour can easily say no. There are any number of pretexts (not that they'd really need one).
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    Not sure if its been reported but WaPo has a poll out showing Clinton 50% Trump 41%. Also has Obama approval of 51%.
  • The Queen complains to the Press Watchdog over that Brexit article.

    Link here

    http://news.sky.com/story/1656600/palace-complains-over-queen-brexit-story
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    There's a Times story today about this. A coup is rumoured again.
    Scott_P said:

    @JoeWatts_: Interesting. Corbyn's spksman says his view is that the ldr is already automatically on ballot in any potential Labour leadership contest.

    Now, why would that question arise...?

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 46,956

    The Queen complains to the Press Watchdog over that Brexit article.

    Philippppppppp....One is right fecked off....
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    Only 25% of voters think Trump has the temperament to be president, versus 58% for Clinton.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,043
    edited March 2016
    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    So far the only swing state Hillary has pulled any trees up in is Virginia. Performed poorly in Colorado and band average in Nevada.

    That Michigan result could well be an omen for the General. Minnesota similiarly having a polling miss makes me wonder if she'll perform poorly in OH, WI, PA too.

    Don't get overly hung up on the nomination results in relation to the general election.

    In 08 Obama lost Michigan, Florida, New Jersey, Ohio and Pennsylvania to Clinton but won them all in the general election.
    How would you rate Sanders chances in Ohio next week ?

    Also Obama has a much more magnetic personality than HRC methinks.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 19,724
    SeanT said:

    Deafbloke said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    In that case, Mr Cameron needs to outline exactly what his plans for Brexit are, seeing as he is going to be the one implementing it.
    It's quite adventurous for Leavers, having demonstrated that they are utterly clueless about what Leave might mean, to demand that the Prime Minister solve their problem for them.
    It's a perfectly fair point. If Cameron is determined to stay on as PM after a LEAVE vote (of course we all know he's lying, and why) then he must surely have a plan for handling the fall-out, and preventing the catastrophe he keeps saying will occur. To do anything else would be a total dereliction of duty.

    What is his plan for Brexit? How will he prevent a collapse in sterling? Does he have a clue? He is the PM after all. It carries certain responsibilities. Maybe his intention is to stay in Number 10 just so he can laugh at the voters and say Told You So when Ebola ravages the nation from Swindon to St Ives.
    Well the plan is simple. Sack Osborne and Hammond. Give their jobs to Gove and Boris.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Sahil Kapur
    CNN polls

    OHIO
    Trump 41
    Kasich 35
    Cruz 15
    Rubio 7

    Clinton 63
    Sanders 33

    FLORIDA
    Trump 40
    Rubio 24
    Cruz 19
    Kasich 5

    Clinton 61
    Sanders 34
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 1,851
    SeanT said:

    Polruan said:

    SeanT said:

    Polruan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    Good. The one thing that might have dragged me, kicking and screaming, into the remain camp would be the party having a bout of regicide and removing Cameron. He is the only choice for PM, there is no one else.
    There is no earthly way that David Cameron will stay Prime Minister for any length of time after a Leave vote. How on earth could he negotiate leaving terms? His credibility would be zero and he in any case would presumably have not the slightest appetite for the task.
    He lt" a year later.
    Fixed Terms. He can't call a GE.

    Of course he would resign after a LEAVE vote, just as he would have resigned after a Scottish YES.

    He'd be the prime minister whose deal was so shit the country told him to stuff it, despite Cameron warning us that if we vote LEAVE there'll be plagues of toads and boils. On top of that he's already told us he's going, so what would be the point in his clinging to office, just to be mocked, jeered and ridiculed, and hated by all the europhiles?

    The idea he could stay on is comical. He'd quit within weeks.
    Two thirds of the House required to call an early GE under the FTPA. If Cameron stands up and proposes an early election resolution, there's no way Labour can say no. They'd spend the next 4 years being taunted as the party who were too scared to fight a general election because they couldn't agree on how to negotiate with the EU.
    You really think Labour MPs would agree to an early GE while their leader is Jeremy Corbyn?

    Um, OK.
    I don't think it's politically possibly for them to do otherwise. I don't disagree with your assessment of how they'd feel about it.

    On the other hand, could be seen as a good opportunity for a coup.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,043
    Rubio and Kasich really need to drop out so we can get some "true" head to analysis for Trump/Clinton givn both will be in strictly "two horse" races at that point.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,265
    SeanT said:

    Deafbloke said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    In that case, Mr Cameron needs to outline exactly what his plans for Brexit are, seeing as he is going to be the one implementing it.
    It's quite adventurous for Leavers, having demonstrated that they are utterly clueless about what Leave might mean, to demand that the Prime Minister solve their problem for them.
    It's a perfectly fair point. If Cameron is determined to stay on as PM after a LEAVE vote (of course we all know he's lying, and why) then he must surely have a plan for handling the fall-out, and preventing the catastrophe he keeps saying will occur. To do anything else would be a total dereliction of duty.

    What is his plan for Brexit? How will he prevent a collapse in sterling? Does he have a clue? He is the PM after all. It carries certain responsibilities. Maybe his intention is to stay in Number 10 just so he can laugh at the voters and say Told You So when Ebola ravages the nation from Swindon to St Ives.
    How on earth could the government draw up a plan for Leave when Leave itself doesn't know whether it's campaigning to Leave to pull up the drawbridge against immigrants or simply to move to an EFTA-style arrangement (or something else entirely)? The only sensible thing that the government could do would be to steady the ship in the very short term by taking such market actions as were required to prevent complete meltdown and agree to take stock of what the government had been mandated to do.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    SeanT said:

    Deafbloke said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    In that case, Mr Cameron needs to outline exactly what his plans for Brexit are, seeing as he is going to be the one implementing it.
    It's quite adventurous for Leavers, having demonstrated that they are utterly clueless about what Leave might mean, to demand that the Prime Minister solve their problem for them.
    It's a perfectly fair point. If Cameron is determined to stay on as PM after a LEAVE vote (of course we all know he's lying, and why) then he must surely have a plan for handling the fall-out, and preventing the catastrophe he keeps saying will occur. To do anything else would be a total dereliction of duty.

    What is his plan for Brexit? How will he prevent a collapse in sterling? Does he have a clue? He is the PM after all. It carries certain responsibilities. Maybe his intention is to stay in Number 10 just so he can laugh at the voters and say Told You So when Ebola ravages the nation from Swindon to St Ives.
    I agree. Brexit may be good for Britain, it may be bad, economically. But the future will be decided here. It won't be decided by Juncker, Merkel or Erdogan.
  • SeanT said:

    There's a Times story today about this. A coup is rumoured again.

    Scott_P said:

    @JoeWatts_: Interesting. Corbyn's spksman says his view is that the ldr is already automatically on ballot in any potential Labour leadership contest.

    Now, why would that question arise...?

    Yes, I've read lots of rumours. I know we've been here before but these sound more concrete than normal.

    If they do junk Corbyn and get in someone reasonable I can see the Tories losing their majority in 2020 very easily, after a hideously divisive euroref.
    The Tories have been planning to face a less left wing leader in 2020, their meme will be Labour are only a heartbeat away from a hard left takeover
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,066
    SeanT said:

    What is his plan for Brexit? How will he prevent a collapse in sterling? Does he have a clue? He is the PM after all. It carries certain responsibilities. Maybe his intention is to stay in Number 10 just so he can laugh at the voters and say Told You So when Ebola ravages the nation from Swindon to St Ives.

    I expect his plan would be to stay on for a bit, to stabilise the situation as much as possible whilst the party and parliament decide what the hell to do next, and a new leader is chosen.

    Perhaps a more interesting question is when the Article 50 button would be pressed.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 3,789
    Pulpstar said:

    So far the only swing state Hillary has pulled any trees up in is Virginia. Performed poorly in Colorado and band average in Nevada.

    That Michigan result could well be an omen for the General. Minnesota similiarly having a polling miss makes me wonder if she'll perform poorly in OH, WI, PA too.

    One theory on Nate Silver's 538 on the polls being so wrong in Michigan is that it seemed such a clear winner for Clinton that numbers of her supporters crossed over and voted in the GOP primary to vote against Trump or felt able to give Sanders a bit of support Not saying I agree or disagree but it is a hypothesis that will easily be tested next week in Ohio and Illinois. If Hilary wins comfortably then the theory is correct - if Sanders goes close or wins it was bollox
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,702
    MaxPB said:

    On Mark Carney. I really don't understand the problem. He was asked questions by the committee and gave pretty straightforward answers. Nothing he said wasn't true or made up, it's the manner of the uphill argument we face in the Leave camp. Instead of lashing out at Carney we should have concentrated on what he actually said and, more importantly, didn't say.

    He said "the EU has been good for us". That statement is, without any shadow of a doubt, true.

    I respect your view, but totally, totally disagree, and I have no idea upon what grounds you're making such an assertion. Joining the European Community was a sticking plaster solution to a lack of competitiveness that only began to be addressed years later under Thatcher. The expected returns of being inside the tariff barrier never materialised to my knowledge.

    Mark Carney deserves disapprobation, because he used the tools at his disposal as BOE Governor to advance the Remain cause as much as he possibly could. It's like the Surgeon General saying disease would be rife, or the Attorney General saying that we'd all be sued.

  • There's no way there would be an early election. My 1st rule of politics - Political Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

    Besides the new boundaries which will be favourable for the Tories won't be ready until 2018
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,226
    Doctors will vote with their feet. The contract Hunt wishes to impose hasn't even been written yet. Incompetent at best yet the idiot Hunt plans to lecture us on on NHS which learns from its mistakes. The Department of Health never learns, a prime example being the Lansley mess.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited March 2016

    SeanT said:

    Deafbloke said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    In that case, Mr Cameron needs to outline exactly what his plans for Brexit are, seeing as he is going to be the one implementing it.
    It's quite adventurous for Leavers, having demonstrated that they are utterly clueless about what Leave might mean, to demand that the Prime Minister solve their problem for them.
    It's a perfectly fair point. If Cameron is determined to stay on as PM after a LEAVE vote (of course we all know he's lying, and why) then he must surely have a plan for handling the fall-out, and preventing the catastrophe he keeps saying will occur. To do anything else would be a total dereliction of duty.

    What is his plan for Brexit? How will he prevent a collapse in sterling? Does he have a clue? He is the PM after all. It carries certain responsibilities. Maybe his intention is to stay in Number 10 just so he can laugh at the voters and say Told You So when Ebola ravages the nation from Swindon to St Ives.
    How on earth could the government draw up a plan for Leave when Leave itself doesn't know whether it's campaigning to Leave to pull up the drawbridge against immigrants or simply to move to an EFTA-style arrangement (or something else entirely)? The only sensible thing that the government could do would be to steady the ship in the very short term by taking such market actions as were required to prevent complete meltdown and agree to take stock of what the government had been mandated to do.
    That's a bit rich. How on earth can the government draw up a plan for REMAIN when our destiny is being increasingly decided by the unaccountable of Europe. Politicians and Bureaucrats.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,226

    The doctors strike got about 20secs on Sky at 8am.

    It's all over as news

    Mortimer said:

    Although fully aware that it is the minority view, I'm interested to see, as predicted, that peak doctor sympathy remains the same, whilst the Govt is getting increased support.

    This always happens during strikes.

    And confirms the tactical approach of Hunt to not meet the hilarious demands of a politicised union. Very astute sir.

    It may have fallen out of news temporarily but has not gone away and not will do so as the gaps in the rota get bigger, the agency staff bill gets higher and care gets poorer.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    So far the only swing state Hillary has pulled any trees up in is Virginia. Performed poorly in Colorado and band average in Nevada.

    That Michigan result could well be an omen for the General. Minnesota similiarly having a polling miss makes me wonder if she'll perform poorly in OH, WI, PA too.

    Don't get overly hung up on the nomination results in relation to the general election.

    In 08 Obama lost Michigan, Florida, New Jersey, Ohio and Pennsylvania to Clinton but won them all in the general election.
    How would you rate Sanders chances in Ohio next week ?

    Also Obama has a much more magnetic personality than HRC methinks.
    Two polls out of Ohio today :

    ORC C+30 .. Quinnipiac C+9

    I'm far far more in the Quinnipiac camp than ORC.

    One other factor to consider. There will come a time, although not yet, when Dems will swing behind the perceived nominee - Clinton. We are aways from that at the moment but it's a factor to consider for punting purposes.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 46,956
    You can tell Corbyn scores lots of blows on Cameron at PMQ's...the BBC headline..

    Jeremy Corbyn poses 100th Prime Minister's Question
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,702

    SeanT said:

    Deafbloke said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    In that case, Mr Cameron needs to outline exactly what his plans for Brexit are, seeing as he is going to be the one implementing it.
    It's quite adventurous for Leavers, having demonstrated that they are utterly clueless about what Leave might mean, to demand that the Prime Minister solve their problem for them.
    It's a perfectly fair point. If Cameron is determined to stay on as PM after a LEAVE vote (of course we all know he's lying, and why) then he must surely have a plan for handling the fall-out, and preventing the catastrophe he keeps saying will occur. To do anything else would be a total dereliction of duty.

    What is his plan for Brexit? How will he prevent a collapse in sterling? Does he have a clue? He is the PM after all. It carries certain responsibilities. Maybe his intention is to stay in Number 10 just so he can laugh at the voters and say Told You So when Ebola ravages the nation from Swindon to St Ives.
    How on earth could the government draw up a plan for Leave when Leave itself doesn't know whether it's campaigning to Leave to pull up the drawbridge against immigrants or simply to move to an EFTA-style arrangement (or something else entirely)? The only sensible thing that the government could do would be to steady the ship in the very short term by taking such market actions as were required to prevent complete meltdown and agree to take stock of what the government had been mandated to do.
    We have a plan for the eventuality that America invades us. Why would we not have a plan for the far likelier and more imminent outcome of leaving the EU, even if there were three or four scenarios?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,265
    taffys said:

    SeanT said:

    Deafbloke said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    In that case, Mr Cameron needs to outline exactly what his plans for Brexit are, seeing as he is going to be the one implementing it.
    It's quite adventurous for Leavers, having demonstrated that they are utterly clueless about what Leave might mean, to demand that the Prime Minister solve their problem for them.
    It's a perfectly fair point. If Cameron is determined to stay on as PM after a LEAVE vote (of course we all know he's lying, and why) then he must surely have a plan for handling the fall-out, and preventing the catastrophe he keeps saying will occur. To do anything else would be a total dereliction of duty.

    What is his plan for Brexit? How will he prevent a collapse in sterling? Does he have a clue? He is the PM after all. It carries certain responsibilities. Maybe his intention is to stay in Number 10 just so he can laugh at the voters and say Told You So when Ebola ravages the nation from Swindon to St Ives.
    How on earth could the government draw up a plan for Leave when Leave itself doesn't know whether it's campaigning to Leave to pull up the drawbridge against immigrants or simply to move to an EFTA-style arrangement (or something else entirely)? The only sensible thing that the government could do would be to steady the ship in the very short term by taking such market actions as were required to prevent complete meltdown and agree to take stock of what the government had been mandated to do.
    That's a bit rich. How on earth can the government draw up a plan for REMAIN when our destiny is being increasingly decided by the unaccountable of Europe. Politicians and Bureaucrats.
    That isn't a line of argument. If the vote is for Remain, the government will proceed on the basis agreed last month. That may be undermined by events in the future but there is no immediate choice to make.

    If the vote is for Leave, the government immediately has choices to make. But the referendum vote, if for Leave, will be a Sphinx-like riddle that the government will need to decode. Since the Leave camp has decided that it's not going to bother herding public opinion, the government will need to take stock after the result.

    Like others, I expect a general election before the end of the year if there's a Leave vote, so that the government can establish a mandate for negotiating on a particular basis.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037
    Pulpstar said:

    Rubio and Kasich really need to drop out so we can get some "true" head to analysis for Trump/Clinton givn both will be in strictly "two horse" races at that point.

    There's no mileage in them both dropping out. There's still time for you to get green Kasich, you know.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Deafbloke said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    In that case, Mr Cameron needs to outline exactly what his plans for Brexit are, seeing as he is going to be the one implementing it.
    It's quite adventurous for Leavers, having demonstrated that they are utterly clueless about what Leave might mean, to demand that the Prime Minister solve their problem for them.
    It's a Ives.
    How on earth could the government draw up a plan for Leave when Leave itself doesn't know whether it's campaigning to Leave to pull up the drawbridge against immigrants or simply to move to an EFTA-style arrangement (or something else entirely)? The only sensible thing that the government could do would be to steady the ship in the very short term by taking such market actions as were required to prevent complete meltdown and agree to take stock of what the government had been mandated to do.
    The government must draw up a plan because it will be the government in charge of events post Brexit. At the moment the polls show Brexit as a 49% possibility, the betting markets put it at about 30%. 1 in 2, or 1 in 3. A government that didn't have contingency plans for dealing with such a very very possible outcome - or disaster - is not a government worthy of the name.

    Cameron can't squirm out of this one. If he wants to stay as PM and manage Brexit, he has to tell us how that management would work. Of course it's awkward for him, but that's because he's lying. We all know that he'd quit. But he's lied, so there it is. Now he has to embroider the lie.
    I love how its incumbent upon Leave to be mystic meg, when remain have no vision of what Britain inside will look like as the rest proceed to ever greater union.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Anne Marie Cunningham
    Could anyone make sense of a letter like this? Something is wrong with some NHS process somewhere https://t.co/OQXzl2PjQn
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,243

    The Queen complains to the Press Watchdog over that Brexit article.

    Philippppppppp....One is right fecked off....
    She's probably not remotely fecked off at all but it is something B P have to do otherwise the masses will start believing the silly story
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,265


    We have a plan for the eventuality that America invades us. Why would we not have a plan for the far likelier and more imminent outcome of leaving the EU, even if there were three or four scenarios?

    SeanT said:


    The government must draw up a plan because it will be the government in charge of events post Brexit. At the moment the polls show Brexit as a 49% possibility, the betting markets put it at about 30%. 1 in 2, or 1 in 3. A government that didn't have contingency plans for dealing with such a very very possible outcome - or disaster - is not a government worthy of the name.

    Cameron can't squirm out of this one. If he wants to stay as PM and manage Brexit, he has to tell us how that management would work. Of course it's awkward for him, but that's because he's lying. We all know that he'd quit. But he's lied, so there it is. Now he has to embroider the lie.

    Both of you are missing the point that the plan has to respect the referendum vote. Until we have some sense of what a vote to Leave means, a plan cannot be drawn up. If the plan is to join EFTA, the anti-immigrant voters will consider that a stab in the back of democracy. If the plan is to stand in splendid isolation, the worldly-wise citizens of the world Leavers in the City will be appalled.

    You might well argue that the incompetence of the Leave campaign in this regard would leave Britain very badly placed, forced to make a leap in the dark. You cannot blame the government for not making the Leave camp's arguments for it.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Surely a Leave vote allows the government to consider the best course of action prior to 'serving' an Article 50?

    That would almost certainly involve a broad range of negotiations with non-EU trading partners about implementing off-the-shelf trade deals, quite often exact duplicates of the existing EU/Non EU deals or EFTA/non EU deals.

    The EU meanwhile will be left in a situation where one of it's biggest economies and contributors is about to walk away.

    We've seen with the eurozone crisis that a contagion fear will most likely follow.

    The contagion could be the non-Euro nations (Scandis/East Europe), but would become particularly tricky if a Eurozone nation saw the UK as it's pathfinder out of unhappy union (PIIGS) or too critical a partner to lose (Ireland).

    It's possible that other nations (Switzerland) may seek an alliance with the UK to strengthen their hand in negotiations with the EU.

    In the immediate aftermath of a leave vote, the instinct of all governments will be to calm markets and insist that it is business as usual, with the eurozone crisis again setting the precedent.

    Unless we roll the dice, we will never know.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 21,539

    SeanT said:

    What is his plan for Brexit? How will he prevent a collapse in sterling? Does he have a clue? He is the PM after all. It carries certain responsibilities. Maybe his intention is to stay in Number 10 just so he can laugh at the voters and say Told You So when Ebola ravages the nation from Swindon to St Ives.

    I expect his plan would be to stay on for a bit, to stabilise the situation as much as possible whilst the party and parliament decide what the hell to do next, and a new leader is chosen.

    Perhaps a more interesting question is when the Article 50 button would be pressed.
    I would have thought almost straight away. He could reasonably take a few weeks for immediate discussions with the rest of the EU and with his own Government to prepare things but I certainly don't think that the plan suggested by some Leavers that he could do any real negotiating prior to formally invoking Article 50 really has any strength.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Chris A...Which part of the Hippocratic Oath did the Junior Doctors not read..or didn't like or thought was useless..or forgot....
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 1,851

    taffys said:

    SeanT said:

    Deafbloke said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    In that case, Mr Cameron needs to outline exactly what his plans for Brexit are, seeing as he is going to be the one implementing it.
    It's a perfectly fair point. If Cameron is determined to stay on as PM after a LEAVE vote (of course we all know he's lying, and why) then he must surely have a plan for handling the fall-out, and preventing the catastrophe he keeps saying will occur. To do anything else would be a total dereliction of duty.

    What is his plan for Brexit? How will he prevent a collapse in sterling? Does he have a clue? He is the PM after all. It carries certain responsibilities. Maybe his intention is to stay in Number 10 just so he can laugh at the voters and say Told You So when Ebola ravages the nation from Swindon to St Ives.
    How on earth could the government draw up a plan for Leave when Leave itself doesn't know whether it's campaigning to Leave to pull up the drawbridge against immigrants or simply to move to an EFTA-style arrangement (or something else entirely)? The only sensible thing that the government could do would be to steady the ship in the very short term by taking such market actions as were required to prevent complete meltdown and agree to take stock of what the government had been mandated to do.
    That's a bit rich. How on earth can the government draw up a plan for REMAIN when our destiny is being increasingly decided by the unaccountable of Europe. Politicians and Bureaucrats.
    That isn't a line of argument. If the vote is for Remain, the government will proceed on the basis agreed last month. That may be undermined by events in the future but there is no immediate choice to make.

    If the vote is for Leave, the government immediately has choices to make. But the referendum vote, if for Leave, will be a Sphinx-like riddle that the government will need to decode. Since the Leave camp has decided that it's not going to bother herding public opinion, the government will need to take stock after the result.

    Like others, I expect a general election before the end of the year if there's a Leave vote, so that the government can establish a mandate for negotiating on a particular basis.
    One might see it as a tiny bit irresponsible to have put in motion a referendum structured in such a way that it is impossible for the government to understand what one of the outcomes means.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,043

    Pulpstar said:

    Rubio and Kasich really need to drop out so we can get some "true" head to analysis for Trump/Clinton givn both will be in strictly "two horse" races at that point.

    There's no mileage in them both dropping out. There's still time for you to get green Kasich, you know.
    I am green Kasich L:)
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 10,658
    edited March 2016

    Chris A...Which part of the Hippocratic Oath did the Junior Doctors not read..or didn't like or thought was useless..or forgot....

    Doctors don't take the Hippocratic Oath, haven't for years
  • glwglw Posts: 6,365

    Both of you are missing the point that the plan has to respect the referendum vote. Until we have some sense of what a vote to Leave means, a plan cannot be drawn up.

    Do you really think that there has been no contingency planning? The BoE has already stated that it has plans for the period around the referendum. If the government hasn't been planning for the various possible outcomes it isn't doing its job.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    TWR..perhaps they should
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited March 2016


    We have a plan for the eventuality that America invades us. Why would we not have a plan for the far likelier and more imminent outcome of leaving the EU, even if there were three or four scenarios?

    SeanT said:


    The government must draw up a plan because it will be the government in charge of events post Brexit. At the moment the polls show Brexit as a 49% possibility, the betting markets put it at about 30%. 1 in 2, or 1 in 3. A government that didn't have contingency plans for dealing with such a very very possible outcome - or disaster - is not a government worthy of the name.

    Cameron can't squirm out of this one. If he wants to stay as PM and manage Brexit, he has to tell us how that management would work. Of course it's awkward for him, but that's because he's lying. We all know that he'd quit. But he's lied, so there it is. Now he has to embroider the lie.

    Both of you are missing the point that the plan has to respect the referendum vote. Until we have some sense of what a vote to Leave means, a plan cannot be drawn up. If the plan is to join EFTA, the anti-immigrant voters will consider that a stab in the back of democracy. If the plan is to stand in splendid isolation, the worldly-wise citizens of the world Leavers in the City will be appalled.

    You might well argue that the incompetence of the Leave campaign in this regard would leave Britain very badly placed, forced to make a leap in the dark. You cannot blame the government for not making the Leave camp's arguments for it.

    The plan would be to prepare for various options, and then what to recommend.

    Then perhaps a second referendum to see which people prefer of 2 Leave options.

    The government could and should be preparing for this very real possibility.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 34,914

    The Queen complains to the Press Watchdog over that Brexit article.

    Surely Her Majesty would prefer to be Head of State of an independent UK, rather than a province of Brussels?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''You might well argue that the incompetence of the Leave campaign in this regard would leave Britain very badly placed, forced to make a leap in the dark. You cannot blame the government for not making the Leave camp's arguments for it. ''

    Maybe, but it would be free and self determining. Nothing beats that. No Alphabet soup or economic sophistry you can throw at me would ever convince me otherwise. Either you control your own destiny or you don't. And we increasingly don't. And those that do are more or less unaccountable or un sackable.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,243

    taffys said:

    SeanT said:

    Deafbloke said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    It's a perfectly fair point. If Cameron is determined to stay on as PM after a LEAVE vote (of course we all know he's lying, and why) then he must surely have a plan for handling the fall-out, and preventing the catastrophe he keeps saying will occur. To do anything else would be a total dereliction of duty.

    What is his plan for Brexit? How will he prevent a collapse in sterling? Does he have a clue? He is the PM after all. It carries certain responsibilities. Maybe his intention is to stay in Number 10 just so he can laugh at the voters and say Told You So when Ebola ravages the nation from Swindon to St Ives.
    How on earth could the government draw up a plan for Leave when Leave itself doesn't know whether it's campaigning to Leave to pull up the drawbridge against immigrants or simply to move to an EFTA-style arrangement (or something else entirely)? The only sensible thing that the government could do would be to steady the ship in the very short term by taking such market actions as were required to prevent complete meltdown and agree to take stock of what the government had been mandated to do.
    That's a bit rich. How on earth can the government draw up a plan for REMAIN when our destiny is being increasingly decided by the unaccountable of Europe. Politicians and Bureaucrats.
    That isn't a line of argument. If the vote is for Remain, the government will proceed on the basis agreed last month. That may be undermined by events in the future but there is no immediate choice to make.

    If the vote is for Leave, the government immediately has choices to make. But the referendum vote, if for Leave, will be a Sphinx-like riddle that the government will need to decode. Since the Leave camp has decided that it's not going to bother herding public opinion, the government will need to take stock after the result.

    Like others, I expect a general election before the end of the year if there's a Leave vote, so that the government can establish a mandate for negotiating on a particular basis.
    Then esp if Lab get rid of Bungalow Bill Corbyn in the interim we could have the prospect of a pro EU Lab gov negotiating an EU withdrawal - seems perverse to me so I can't see a GE arising
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 10,658
    Incidentally, looking at Rubio's path to the nomination: what it requires is a major uptick on the East coast: New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey.

    Expectations in CA, FL, etc. are already priced in.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,066

    I would have thought almost straight away. He could reasonably take a few weeks for immediate discussions with the rest of the EU and with his own Government to prepare things but I certainly don't think that the plan suggested by some Leavers that he could do any real negotiating prior to formally invoking Article 50 really has any strength.

    That's my feeling too, but the counter-argument is that to do so would pre-empt a decision which really should be taken by the team set up to handle Brexit - in reality, by Cameron's successor.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 46,956
    Premier League to cap cost of tickets for away fans at £30
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 10,658

    Premier League to cap cost of tickets for away fans at £30

    So if you're an Arsenal fan it will be half the price to see them at Spurs, just down the road. Hmm...
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Well quite.
    Polruan said:

    taffys said:

    SeanT said:

    Deafbloke said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    In that case, Mr Cameron needs to outline exactly what his plans for Brexit are, seeing as he is going to be the one implementing it.
    It's a perfectly fair point. If Cameron is determined to stay on as PM after a LEAVE vote (of course we all know he's lying, and why) then he must surely have a plan for handling the fall-out, and preventing the catastrophe he keeps saying will occur. To do anything else would be a total dereliction of duty.

    What is his plan for Brexit? How will he prevent a collapse in sterling? Does he have a clue? He is the PM after all. It carries certain responsibilities. Maybe his intention is to stay in Number 10 just so he can laugh at the voters and say Told You So when Ebola ravages the nation from Swindon to St Ives.
    How on earth could the government draw up a plan for Leave when Leave itself doesn't know whether it's campaigning to Leave to pull up the drawbridge against immigrants or simply to move to an EFTA-style arrangement (or something else entirely)? The only sensible thing that the government could do would be to steady the ship in the very short term by taking such market actions as were required to prevent complete meltdown and agree to take stock of what the government had been mandated to do.
    That's a bit rich. How on earth can the government draw up a plan for REMAIN when our destiny is being increasingly decided by the unaccountable of Europe. Politicians and Bureaucrats.
    That isn't a line of argument. If the vote is for Remain, the government will proceed on the basis agreed last month. That may be undermined by events in the future but there is no immediate choice to make.

    If the vote is for Leave, the government immediately has choices to make. But the referendum vote, if for Leave, will be a Sphinx-like riddle that the government will need to decode. Since the Leave camp has decided that it's not going to bother herding public opinion, the government will need to take stock after the result.

    Like others, I expect a general election before the end of the year if there's a Leave vote, so that the government can establish a mandate for negotiating on a particular basis.
    One might see it as a tiny bit irresponsible to have put in motion a referendum structured in such a way that it is impossible for the government to understand what one of the outcomes means.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    A thought has occurred to me about Cameron referring to the jungle type camps in Kent in the event of Brexit.

    They'll be full of Nabavi/Meeks types desperate to flee oppression with the EU steadfastly refusing to let them in.

    Don't worry, I live nearby, I'll look after you with bowls of nourishing soup.
  • The Times

    The Queen opposed to Brexit as it could lead to the break up of the U.K.
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    SeanT said:


    We have a plan for the eventuality that America invades us. Why would we not have a plan for the far likelier and more imminent outcome of leaving the EU, even if there were three or four scenarios?

    SeanT said:


    The government must draw up a plan because it will be the government in charge of events post Brexit. At the moment the polls show Brexit as a 49% possibility, the betting markets put it at about 30%. 1 in 2, or 1 in 3. A government that didn't have contingency plans for dealing with such a very very possible outcome - or disaster - is not a government worthy of the name.

    Cameron can't squirm out of this one. If he wants to stay as PM and manage Brexit, he has to tell us how that management would work. Of course it's awkward for him, but that's because he's lying. We all know that he'd quit. But he's lied, so there it is. Now he has to embroider the lie.

    Both of you are missing the point that the plan has to respect the referendum vote. Until we have some sense of what a vote to Leave means, a plan cannot be drawn up. If the plan is to join EFTA, the anti-immigrant voters will consider that a stab in the back of democracy. If the plan is to stand in splendid isolation, the worldly-wise citizens of the world Leavers in the City will be appalled.

    You might well argue that the incompetence of the Leave campaign in this regard would leave Britain very badly placed, forced to make a leap in the dark. You cannot blame the government for not making the Leave camp's arguments for it.
    Stop being a boring arse. Of course we're not expecting Cameron to come up with a ten point plan for the UK's constitutional future over the next decade, he just needs to tell us how he'd stop all the immediate horrors which he himself has threatened: the jungle coming to Kent, the collapse in Sterling, the immediate disinvestment, banks fleeing to Paris, giant dogs eating small weans, etc. He must have a plan to prevent this, given that LEAVE is highly possible.

    He's the fecking PM, for Christ's sake. It's his JOB.
    Cameron doesn't care. He is putting UK membership of the EU above all standards of good governance, political corruption and open political debate. Ministers have been stopped from seeing documents in their own departments, cabinet ministers have been warned about firings if they speak out too soon or too loudly, private businessmen have been blackmailed and threatened. There is no low he will not sink to in order to keep the rule of Brussels over Westminster, so why would he give a dam about the UK being unprepared for Brexit?
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474


    We have a plan for the eventuality that America invades us. Why would we not have a plan for the far likelier and more imminent outcome of leaving the EU, even if there were three or four scenarios?

    SeanT said:


    The government must draw up a plan because it will be the government in charge of events post Brexit. At the moment the polls show Brexit as a 49% possibility, the betting markets put it at about 30%. 1 in 2, or 1 in 3. A government that didn't have contingency plans for dealing with such a very very possible outcome - or disaster - is not a government worthy of the name.

    Cameron can't squirm out of this one. If he wants to stay as PM and manage Brexit, he has to tell us how that management would work. Of course it's awkward for him, but that's because he's lying. We all know that he'd quit. But he's lied, so there it is. Now he has to embroider the lie.

    Both of you are missing the point that the plan has to respect the referendum vote. Until we have some sense of what a vote to Leave means, a plan cannot be drawn up. If the plan is to join EFTA, the anti-immigrant voters will consider that a stab in the back of democracy. If the plan is to stand in splendid isolation, the worldly-wise citizens of the world Leavers in the City will be appalled.

    You might well argue that the incompetence of the Leave campaign in this regard would leave Britain very badly placed, forced to make a leap in the dark. You cannot blame the government for not making the Leave camp's arguments for it.

    The plan would be the prepare for various options, and then what to recommend.

    Then perhaps a second referendum to see which people prefer of 2 Leave options.

    The government could and should be preparing for this very real possibility.

    If they haven't prepared, they're grossly negligent. And there should be a GE.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 28,182
    Polruan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    Good. The one thing that might have dragged me, kicking and screaming, into the remain camp would be the party having a bout of regicide and removing Cameron. He is the only choice for PM, there is no one else.
    There is no earthly way that David Cameron will stay Prime Minister for any length of time after a Leave vote. How on earth could he negotiate leaving terms? His credibility would be zero and he in any case would presumably have not the slightest appetite for the task.
    He likes winning (as an end, rather than a means) and would hate to depart as a loser. So he'd try to call a quick GE justified by the need to seek a mandate for the negotiation, which he'd believe he could win. Of course it might not be his choice, but if he moved quickly enough the party would have no choice to line up behind him, with his opponents being smeared Crosby-style as putting the economy at risk in this time of crisis, and allowing the apocalyptic risk of terrorist-sympathiser Corbyn/evil baby-eating Scots (etc) to run the country by destabilising the GE campaign with a leadership contest. And, tbf, you'd assume he'd increase the majority then stand down "triumphant" a year later.
    His opponents will presumably be the non-EEA/EFTA ones, so mostly they will be in UKIP.

    It will be back to normal course of business very quickly
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    The Queen complains to the Press Watchdog over that Brexit article.

    Surely Her Majesty would prefer to be Head of State of an independent UK, rather than a province of Brussels?

    Maybe. But she can never say it publicly.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    SeanT said:

    I would have thought almost straight away. He could reasonably take a few weeks for immediate discussions with the rest of the EU and with his own Government to prepare things but I certainly don't think that the plan suggested by some Leavers that he could do any real negotiating prior to formally invoking Article 50 really has any strength.

    That's my feeling too, but the counter-argument is that to do so would pre-empt a decision which really should be taken by the team set up to handle Brexit - in reality, by Cameron's successor.
    But Cameron's just told us he's staying on, post Brexit. He will be handling things.

    Oh dear, he is in a bit of a hole now, isn't he?

    He's lucky that LEAVE are so chaotic they might not notice this significant opportunity.
    If pressed he'll just say that he would do everything he could to stabilise an extremely dangerous situation, then continuing talking about the dangerously dangerous danger.
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268

    SeanT said:

    Deafbloke said:

    Richard Burgon "the farting commie" asked a smart question which Labour can build attacks upon.
    "If people vote LEAVE will the PM Resign?"
    Answer = No.

    In that case, Mr Cameron needs to outline exactly what his plans for Brexit are, seeing as he is going to be the one implementing it.
    It's quite adventurous for Leavers, having demonstrated that they are utterly clueless about what Leave might mean, to demand that the Prime Minister solve their problem for them.
    It's a perfectly fair point. If Cameron is determined to stay on as PM after a LEAVE vote (of course we all know he's lying, and why) then he must surely have a plan for handling the fall-out, and preventing the catastrophe he keeps saying will occur. To do anything else would be a total dereliction of duty.

    What is his plan for Brexit? How will he prevent a collapse in sterling? Does he have a clue? He is the PM after all. It carries certain responsibilities. Maybe his intention is to stay in Number 10 just so he can laugh at the voters and say Told You So when Ebola ravages the nation from Swindon to St Ives.
    How on earth could the government draw up a plan for Leave when Leave itself doesn't know whether it's campaigning to Leave to pull up the drawbridge against immigrants or simply to move to an EFTA-style arrangement (or something else entirely)? The only sensible thing that the government could do would be to steady the ship in the very short term by taking such market actions as were required to prevent complete meltdown and agree to take stock of what the government had been mandated to do.
    We have a plan for the eventuality that America invades us. Why would we not have a plan for the far likelier and more imminent outcome of leaving the EU, even if there were three or four scenarios?
    Indeed. It wouldn't be too hard to make one scenario for the EEA option and one for an FTA option. But Cameron won't do it because it will weaken his argument for the EU. He puts EU membership before the wellbeing of the UK. He is worse than Heath.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 60,043

    Incidentally, looking at Rubio's path to the nomination: what it requires is a major uptick on the East coast: New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey.

    Expectations in CA, FL, etc. are already priced in.

    Hmm not sure about that. Betfair will wildly overreact if he wins Florida.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 46,956

    The Times

    The Queen opposed to Brexit as it could lead to the break up of the U.K.

    "The Queen was dragged further into EU controversy today as a former cabinet minister suggested that she feared a Brexit would break up the United Kingdom."

    Who is the former cabinet minister?
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    I would have thought almost straight away. He could reasonably take a few weeks for immediate discussions with the rest of the EU and with his own Government to prepare things but I certainly don't think that the plan suggested by some Leavers that he could do any real negotiating prior to formally invoking Article 50 really has any strength.

    That's my feeling too, but the counter-argument is that to do so would pre-empt a decision which really should be taken by the team set up to handle Brexit - in reality, by Cameron's successor.
    That's similar to the guff pumped out by the MoD to justify a lack of planning before the Gulf War. They couldn't buy the right kit as it would signal an intent to go to war. The result being poorly equipped soldiers losing their lives for want of decent body armour,
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037

    Incidentally, looking at Rubio's path to the nomination: what it requires is a major uptick on the East coast: New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey.

    Expectations in CA, FL, etc. are already priced in.

    Yes, and also worth noting that the Deep South has all voted.
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    Given the failure of Cameron to do any contingency planning, he UK should take a year to prepare for negotiations before invoking Article 50.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    It is extraordinary that Cameron is now effectively admitting that he called a referendum where one outcome is inherently dangerous for the country.

    And he just hoped we wouldn't pick it? Huh?

    A decent opposition would be ripping him apart right now.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 18,941
    glw said:

    Both of you are missing the point that the plan has to respect the referendum vote. Until we have some sense of what a vote to Leave means, a plan cannot be drawn up.

    Do you really think that there has been no contingency planning? The BoE has already stated that it has plans for the period around the referendum. If the government hasn't been planning for the various possible outcomes it isn't doing its job.
    I'm not sure that the Government has been doing any planning, but I sure as hell hope that there are some civil servants wargaming tne possibility.

    In any event, in the event of a Leave vote (shudder) Cameron would be in the position of a PM who has recommended a particular course of action to the country and had that advice rejected. Surely no honourable man could stay in office after such an event.

    As SeanT says, in the event of a Leave vote, watch him squirm.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,066
    SeanT said:

    But Cameron's just told us he's staying on, post Brexit. He will be handling things.

    Oh dear, he is in a bit of a hole now, isn't he?

    He's lucky that LEAVE are so chaotic they might not notice this significant opportunity.

    You're getting over excited, and talking at cross-purposes with the estimable Mr Meeks. Sure, there's a plan for dealing with the immediate economic uncertainty of Brexit, inasmuch as it can be dealt with. Mark Carney covered that point yesterday. But there's no plan for the longer-term question of what the new settlement with our EU friends would be, which is Alastair's point.

    On the politics, the Leave side want to avoid both questions. They most certainly don't want to talk about the risk of short-term economic chaos. So he's not in a hole at all, not even in the shallowest of depressions.
  • The Times

    The Queen opposed to Brexit as it could lead to the break up of the U.K.

    "The Queen was dragged further into EU controversy today as a former cabinet minister suggested that she feared a Brexit would break up the United Kingdom."

    Who is the former cabinet minister?
    Sir Ed Davey.
This discussion has been closed.