A problem is that if a politician makes enquiries, and is told by the permanent employees of government that it all ok, he/she has two choices.There are parallels between Hodge in Islington and the current Post Office Horizon IT scandal (along with pretty much every recent scandal, as Cyclefree constantly reminds us). Whistleblowers ignored; official reassurances; complete absence of professional curiosity, empathy or even common sense.Corbyn was also contacted by Dr Davis, but in his own words, 'made enquiries and was reassured.'Islington was more about then-council leader turned New Labour MP Dame Margaret Hodge, but she hated Corbyn so that's all right then.I think this is, ultimately, like Jeremy Corbyn and the Islington child sex abuse scandal.That the Tories, in their desperate spot, are trying to weaponise this story against the LibDems, despite their shared culpability and their sole accountability for proceeding, in majority government, to shower such honour and preferment onto Vennells after all the key facts were in the public domain, is shameful.Did you miss this bit?
That this header plays along with this disgraceful political smear campaign is equally shameful.
I won’t be contributing further to this thread.
Whilst Davey should have displayed a bit more curiosity when dealing with this issue I do have a smidgen of sympathy with him, the real ire should be aimed at those at the Post Office and their confederates who knew the Horizon system was producing hugely incorrect figures but kept quiet and continued on with the prosecutions.
He was with hindsight very foolish to accept what he was being told by the people complained about rather than by the whistleblower. And with hindsight, I'm sure he feels an idiot.
But unless more comes out than there has so far about his actions, it's going to be difficult to argue he bears particular blame.
I also think no party's going to be keen to press this too far. Too many of their senior members have unclean hands, including a former leader of the Labour Party and a wannabe leader of the Tories.
So rightly or wrongly I don't see it being more than embarrassing for Davey.
I agree Hodge is more culpable, to the extent a case could be made she should be doing prison time. Almost more disgusting were her later attempts to smear the victims to try and silence them.
Fujitsu delivered software that was so deficient that it is legally liable. That’s my opinion, based on decades in IT.Yes of course. Goes without saying.Did Ed Davey and the Post Office employees believe:A witchhunt is certainly to be avoided, Stocky. And no, V's gong doesn't matter a toss (although the person who authorised it should be sacked.)
1) that the money was missing and that theft was more plausible than the IT failure that they were assured by Fujitsu was foolproof
or
2) the postmasters were innocent but should be persecuted and prosecuted anyway
The first, surely?
I think we are in danger of another witchhunt here, instead of addressing - you know - little things like how the PO can mount a prosecution separate from the usual checks and balances, is the money actually missing and did someone at Fujitsu steal it, and how are we the taxpayers going to get our money back from Fujitsu to compensate for their supply of a faulty product?
Instead we want to get Vennells to give her gong back.
As for the 'shortfalls' paid over by the SPMs, it is with the PO, not Fujitsu. It should be paid back immediately, with interest.
Then the PO (+ government pressure) goes after Fujitsu.
And the gov urgently fixes the biggest issue of all - that PO were able to mount an independent prosecution. Let it be remembered that there was no evidence of theft, yet they prosecutions happened and the juries bought it.
Sunak was poor on Kunnessberg on BBC this morning then on Sky Starmer was uninspiringDon't want to go all Brecht here, but isn't the bigger problem, what the British electorate will vote for?
For the first time in my near 80 years I am politically homeless and am certain I am not alone
I will not join any political party again and frankly have no confidence we have any prospect of addressing our country's deep seated problems with the current politicians on offer
Not any more. Non-white leaders include the Prime Minister, a handful of Home Secretaries and recent Chancellors of the Exchequer and so on. Your own country's First Minister is another, and the Mayor of London.In England it is all about skin colour.Ooh, now there's a question. I was talking about what is sometimes referred to as the "Celtic nationalists" - plaid, SNP, the Shinners. But it's use in England I did not consider.Nationalist vs Unionist is an interesting one.Does unionism even exist in England? Union with whom? If the EU, then surely it is the antithesis of English nationalism, which most would identify with Brexiteers?
Clear enough in a Scottish context, but not in England, where for many unionism is effectively an expression of English nationalism.
I won't be able to answer questions until around 11am UK, so apologies. Any questions, please make them and I'll address them later. Hope that's ok. Thanks to @TSE and @rcs1000 for publishing ir
So, ideally, are we looking at 67,736,802 parties?An interesting piece. Examples of the graphs would have helped but I appreciate length is always an issue for a header.We need more than two parties of government. Far better is PR, where all strands of opinion can be voiced.
What the header, and indeed the discussion BTL, show is that it is increasingly difficult and complicated to classify someone's political beliefs in a broad category that carries a coherent meaning. One point that I think hasn't been made to date is that this is the reason that political parties have also become less coherent and disciplined.
So yesterday we had a former Tory Minister Chris Skidmore resigning because he doesn't think that the government should be issuing licences for fresh exploration in the North Sea. How do you classify that? According to Wiki he was Chairman of the Bow Group and a fellow of the Policy Exchange. He has been active in Tory politics since he was a teenager and supported Truss's Free Enterprise Group. An almost classic Tory but he has resigned the Whip and may soon be to resign his seat. If you can't create a tent big enough to include people like that how do you create a government?
Holding parties together in such an atmosphere is incredibly difficult creating governments that lack coherence, stability and a sense of purpose. I think that the politician who has proven to be the best at this in recent decades was Nicola Sturgeon but look what has happened since she left the scene. The famous SNP self discipline has collapsed and dissent is rife. This simply means that the SNP have fallen to earth and are in a similar position to most political parties.
We see this in the Commons. Both parties have an exceptional number of people who have been expelled or simply chosen to leave. In Labour's case this includes the former leader. In the last Parliament we had the likes of Ken Clarke expelled. What this means for the future is that any government elected with a small majority simply will not survive. There will be too many single issue obsessives who will split away.
One reason that I have never entered party politics for election (though have been a member of Labour 1994-2003, and Lib Dems 2013-present) is that my political views are incoherent. They really do not match any political party. I am a minority of one.