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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Michael Gove – the case against

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited June 3 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Michael Gove – the case against

Michael Gove has many admirers – most notably, several on this forum, including a former Labour MP and a number of Conservative and UKIP voters. He is an experienced minister, having held office for nine years (one of them outside the cabinet). He is able, articulate, polite, and from a very modest background. He is well connected in the media, has a remarkable imagination and drive, and stands out, frankly, for all those reasons among the dross the Tories have for reasons best known to themselves put forward as leadership contenders.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited June 3
    The OP might also have mentioned that as EdSec, Gove continued to sell off school playing fields and left behind a shortage of school places.

    Michael Gove's campaign video was given low marks by Roger in the previous thread.

    In the video, Gove references the speech he made attacking Corbyn. Many of us wondered at the time why Gove was attacking Corbyn while ostensibly requesting Labour's help with the Withdrawal Agreement. Was he sacrificing the government to further his leadership bid, or merely demonstrating his propensity to start a fight in a phone box?

    Still at least as a result of Gove's improvements to education we know what slugabed means. It means first!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Boris wants to increase spending per pupil.

    <i>"Mr Johnson’s announcement will be seen as a challenge to Michael Gove’s record as Education Secretary. The amount of per pupil spending in England's schools has fallen by 8 per cent since 2010, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies."</i>
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/02/boris-johnson-plans-spend-least-5000-every-secondary-school/
  • RobDRobD Posts: 41,267
    Thanks for the header, Y Doethur :)
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 12,654
    The goal from the point of view of the membership is to get Brexit done, so if you're a Tory member and you read this piece about him getting a bunch of changes through regardless of whether they're actually going to work, it sounds like he's your guy.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    So it's a no to the Gove-anator then ....
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 5,729
    > @JackW said:
    > So it's a no to the Gove-anator then ....

    Don't give up the day job Jack
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 27,826
    > @Scott_P said:
    >

    It’s hard to disagree with any of that.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 25,966

    The OP might also have mentioned that as EdSec, Gove continued to sell off school playing fields and left behind a shortage of school places.

    I recall one of the big criticisms of the last Labour government is they hadn’t built out capacity so there was going to be a real issue with a shortage of places in the very near future

    In Gove’s case did he (a) make this worse (b) not address it at all or (c) only partialky address it?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 22,387
    edited June 3
    Interesting article with some telling points. Although it’s a shame he is so down on LEAs ,considering the weakness of the alternatives.

    Underlines my view that Hunt is the grown up choice from among the handful of heavyweights in the contest.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 307
    "meaning he is either very stupid and was completely fooled, or very dishonest"

    I heard this guy during the referendum campaign repeatedly claiming to believe that Turkey was about to join the EU, so I would go for "very dishonest".
  • RobDRobD Posts: 41,267
    > @kamski said:
    > "meaning he is either very stupid and was completely fooled, or very dishonest"
    >
    > I heard this guy during the referendum campaign repeatedly claiming to believe that Turkey was about to join the EU, so I would go for "very dishonest".

    About to? It was in the process of joining :smiley:
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 32,315
    > @IanB2 said:
    > Interesting article with some telling points. Although it’s a shame he is so down on LEA, considering the weakness of the alternatives.
    >
    > Underlines my view that Hunt is the grown up choice from among the handful of heavyweights in the contest.

    I genuinely do not see a good choice for the Tories. The lack of talent is painful. As is the lack of honesty about the position in which the UK finds itself. It's very, very hard to see how this ends well for them or the country.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 22,387
    > @AlastairMeeks said:
    > > @Scott_P said:
    > >
    >
    > It’s hard to disagree with any of that.


    “The party of Churchill, Macmillan, Thatcher and those under them, the great ministers, Carrington, Butler, Macleod to name a few. A party which combined pragmatism, deep attachment to our parliamentary institutions and engagement with the world as it is, not as they might like it to be.

    It is a question over which historians will linger long. In 2015, total hegemony was within their grasp. They had won a majority against the odds, Labour's response was to elect Jeremy Corbyn. A new, enduring political project was possible.

    Instead, they used their moment of strength to indulge their greatest weaknesses. In four short years, they have converted the potential for another decade or more of government, to the precipice of destruction, the worst election results in their long and venerable history.”
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 23,393
    Charles said:

    The OP might also have mentioned that as EdSec, Gove continued to sell off school playing fields and left behind a shortage of school places.

    I recall one of the big criticisms of the last Labour government is they hadn’t built out capacity so there was going to be a real issue with a shortage of places in the very near future

    In Gove’s case did he (a) make this worse (b) not address it at all or (c) only partialky address it?
    Depends where you live. In the south, free schools and new academies partially addressed it although they have been at best a mixed success. In the north-east, his reforms driving teachers away through overwork and stress made it much worse.

    I could have listed a dozen failures, as I said.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 22,387
    > @RobD said:
    > > @kamski said:
    > > "meaning he is either very stupid and was completely fooled, or very dishonest"
    > >
    > > I heard this guy during the referendum campaign repeatedly claiming to believe that Turkey was about to join the EU, so I would go for "very dishonest".
    >
    > About to? It was in the process of joining :smiley:

    The truth being that the latter is the EUs way of avoiding the former, as every adult in the room very well knew.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 23,393
    IanB2 said:

    Interesting article with some telling points. Although it’s a shame he is so down on LEAs ,considering the weakness of the alternatives.

    The problem is they usually don't work, in common with most loca government in this country.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 27,803
    > @RobD said:
    > > @kamski said:
    > > "meaning he is either very stupid and was completely fooled, or very dishonest"
    > >
    > > I heard this guy during the referendum campaign repeatedly claiming to believe that Turkey was about to join the EU, so I would go for "very dishonest".
    >
    > About to? It was in the process of joining :smiley:

    +++++++++++

    Let's not go there shall we.

    Turkey could only ever have joined if the every single other member of the EU 28 signed an accession Treaty. (Which would also need to be ratified by 28 National Parliaments, and some subnational bodies, such as the Belgian regional assemblies, and - I believe - the Scottish Parliament.)

    It was dishonest of European politicians (including David Cameron) to suggest that this was easily achievable. It is hard to believe it could have been achieved in Cyprus (which would probably leave rather than accept Turkey), and the Greeks would have harboured more than a few doubts.

    And the Italians under Salvini or the Hungarians or the Poles?

    So, whatever the status of Turkey as an "accession" country, it was pushing it to say that it was likely to become a member of the EU in the meaningful future. And, I suspect that none of us will live long enough to see it join. (Although, of course, there are many reasons why that might be the case...)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 22,387
    > @SouthamObserver said:
    > > @IanB2 said:
    > > Interesting article with some telling points. Although it’s a shame he is so down on LEA, considering the weakness of the alternatives.
    > >
    > > Underlines my view that Hunt is the grown up choice from among the handful of heavyweights in the contest.
    >
    > I genuinely do not see a good choice for the Tories. The lack of talent is painful. As is the lack of honesty about the position in which the UK finds itself. It's very, very hard to see how this ends well for them or the country.
    >
    >

    Not sure you’d be that heartened by a contest between Burgon, Long-Bailey and the rest. Your handful of heroes would face the same problem as Rory as being unelectable by the membership.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 29,958
    edited June 3
    I've yet to see any evidence that Gove is a leader of men. He might be great as a snitch, a gossip, a leaker, an information broker. Arguably all very useful tools of the trade for getting up the greasy political pole. But hardly what is required at this time, when we need someone with the authority to fix the broken collective responsibilty of Cabinet.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 20,166
    Apart from the fact this whole sorry piece is basically a vested interest attack on spmeone who tried to deal with the damage wrought by vested interests (yes, Y Doethur, I’m thinking of you there), it is also logically inconsistent. It attacks Gove for not listening and then says he was guilty of listening too much - and to the very people who in our system of Government we are told are specifically supposed to be there to advise.

    Even a cursory look at the standards of education over the last 30 or more years shows it has been getting disastrously worse since long before Gove appeared and for the teaching profession to blame him for its current ills is self serving and hypocritical.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 16,610
    Thanks for the header; useful to have an assessment of someone produced as a result of practical experience of their policies.

    While most of the teachers in my family are in their first few practicing years the stories they tell of MAT's bear out Y Doethur's report. It does seem we are returning to a system of education similar to that in early to mid Victorian times, which was ended, because of public dissatisfaction, by Parliamentary action at the end of the 19th Century.

    In agreeing with Mr B2, though on the alternatives to LEA's, I would suggest though that the 'failure' of LEA's was due to the system of local government in this country, with far too many one-party states, and hence Chairs of Education Committees becoming far too powerful. The late Alderman Cyril Smith may be cited as an example.

    Too many of us, of course, are 'experts' on the subject of education, based on hazy memories of being at school!
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @MikeSmithson said:

    "Don't give up the day job Jack"

    ..........................................................................................................................

    Mike - I would never give up on my day job of scouring PB for 50/1 tips from one of Bedford's finest .... whoever that might be.

    :sunglasses:
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 12,218
    Thanks @ydoethur for the header. I voted Conservative in 2010 for much the same reasons as yourself. Like everyone else I am an expert on education as I once went to school and took exams! Health care suffers the same problem as everyone has once been to the doctor...

    I too am unconvinced by Gove. Energy is not necessarily a good thing when interfering with systems that need refreshing and revising rather than revolution. Health has suffered the same toxic ideological approach from a number of Secretaries of State for Health. Indeed one of the reasons that I am fairly pro Hunt, and to a lesser extent Hancock, is that they haven't attempted revolution. Hunt is perhaps best known for his dispute with the Junior Doctors, and that did end in failure, with a new contract that is overly complex and restrictive while singly failing to deliver. Hunt did have the sense to declare victory and move on, quietly dropping plans to do the same to other staff groups including my own.

    So far as I can see there are only two good features to Brexit, the first being the destruction of the Tory party and to a lesser extent Corbynism. The second is that it has so consumed political energy that there has been little attempt by any minister at revolution in their departments, which are quietly ticking over under the Civil Servants while the politicians plot and fued over how many angels can dance on the head of an Irish backstop.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Charles said:

    The OP might also have mentioned that as EdSec, Gove continued to sell off school playing fields and left behind a shortage of school places.

    I recall one of the big criticisms of the last Labour government is they hadn’t built out capacity so there was going to be a real issue with a shortage of places in the very near future

    In Gove’s case did he (a) make this worse (b) not address it at all or (c) only partialky address it?
    As I understand it, and leaving aside the attempt to blame Labour, the essential conundrum is Gove stopped LEAs having new schools (remember the jibe that the largest LEA in the country is Michael Gove's desk) and the free school and academy trusts by and large do not have the money to build new schools, especially (see Boris) since per pupil spending was cut, even if they wanted to do so.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 12,218
    > @RobD said:
    > > @kamski said:
    > > "meaning he is either very stupid and was completely fooled, or very dishonest"
    > >
    > > I heard this guy during the referendum campaign repeatedly claiming to believe that Turkey was about to join the EU, so I would go for "very dishonest".
    >
    > About to? It was in the process of joining :smiley:

    I believe that Turkey has been in the process of joining for nearly as long as we have been a member, and is no closer to actual membership.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 23,393

    Charles said:

    The OP might also have mentioned that as EdSec, Gove continued to sell off school playing fields and left behind a shortage of school places.

    I recall one of the big criticisms of the last Labour government is they hadn’t built out capacity so there was going to be a real issue with a shortage of places in the very near future

    In Gove’s case did he (a) make this worse (b) not address it at all or (c) only partialky address it?
    As I understand it, and leaving aside the attempt to blame Labour, the essential conundrum is Gove stopped LEAs having new schools (remember the jibe that the largest LEA in the country is Michael Gove's desk) and the free school and academy trusts by and large do not have the money to build new schools, especially (see Boris) since per pupil spending was cut, even if they wanted to do so.

    The more pertinent problem (as LEAs have no money either) is that FS and academies are built where people want them to be built, which is not always where they're actually needed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 23,393

    Apart from the fact this whole sorry piece is basically a vested interest attack on spmeone who tried to deal with the damage wrought by vested interests (yes, Y Doethur, I’m thinking of you there), it is also logically inconsistent. It attacks Gove for not listening and then says he was guilty of listening too much - and to the very people who in our system of Government we are told are specifically supposed to be there to advise.



    Even a cursory look at the standards of education over the last 30 or more years shows it has been getting disastrously worse since long before Gove appeared and for the teaching profession to blame him for its current ills is self serving and hypocritical.

    Did anyone understand any of that? Or is it just too early in the morning?

    Still, at least you read it.

    (Btw, civil servants are not there to advise. They are there to administer. There are no experts on education in the department of education, unlike in say Justice or Environment.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 12,218
    > @OldKingCole said:
    > Thanks for the header; useful to have an assessment of someone produced as a result of practical experience of their policies.
    >
    > While most of the teachers in my family are in their first few practicing years the stories they tell of MAT's bear out Y Doethur's report. It does seem we are returning to a system of education similar to that in early to mid Victorian times, which was ended, because of public dissatisfaction, by Parliamentary action at the end of the 19th Century.
    >
    > In agreeing with Mr B2, though on the alternatives to LEA's, I would suggest though that the 'failure' of LEA's was due to the system of local government in this country, with far too many one-party states, and hence Chairs of Education Committees becoming far too powerful. The late Alderman Cyril Smith may be cited as an example.
    >
    > Too many of us, of course, are 'experts' on the subject of education, based on hazy memories of being at school!

    Some form of PR would be of great benefit to breaking up the one party states of Local Government. It is sorely needed
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 29,958
    > @IanB2 said:
    > > @SouthamObserver said:
    > > > @IanB2 said:
    > > > Interesting article with some telling points. Although it’s a shame he is so down on LEA, considering the weakness of the alternatives.
    > > >
    > > > Underlines my view that Hunt is the grown up choice from among the handful of heavyweights in the contest.
    > >
    > > I genuinely do not see a good choice for the Tories. The lack of talent is painful. As is the lack of honesty about the position in which the UK finds itself. It's very, very hard to see how this ends well for them or the country.
    > >
    > >
    >
    > Not sure you’d be that heartened by a contest between Burgon, Long-Bailey and the rest. Your handful of heroes would face the same problem as Rory as being unelectable by the membership.

    It would be fascinating to see who the MPs would elect as PM, without the requirement of looking over their shoulder of who to put to - and block from - the membership.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 32,051
    > @Foxy said:
    > Thanks @ydoethur for the header. I voted Conservative in 2010 for much the same reasons as yourself. Like everyone else I am an expert on education as I once went to school and took exams! Health care suffers the same problem as everyone has once been to the doctor...
    >
    > I too am unconvinced by Gove. Energy is not necessarily a good thing when interfering with systems that need refreshing and revising rather than revolution. Health has suffered the same toxic ideological approach from a number of Secretaries of State for Health. Indeed one of the reasons that I am fairly pro Hunt, and to a lesser extent Hancock, is that they haven't attempted revolution. Hunt is perhaps best known for his dispute with the Junior Doctors, and that did end in failure, with a new contract that is overly complex and restrictive while singly failing to deliver. Hunt did have the sense to declare victory and move on, quietly dropping plans to do the same to other staff groups including my own.
    >
    > So far as I can see there are only two good features to Brexit, the first being the destruction of the Tory party and to a lesser extent Corbynism. The second is that it has so consumed political energy that there has been little attempt by any minister at revolution in their departments, which are quietly ticking over under the Civil Servants while the politicians plot and fued over how many angels can dance on the head of an Irish backstop.
    >

    I seem to recall you were spitting teeth about Hunt three years ago?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 51,900
    Good morning, everyone.

    Is the problem the Party, or the Commons?

    The Commons voted for us to Leave, refuses to countenance leaving without a deal, and refuses for us to leave with a deal. The Conservatives are not even half the House of Commons, as currently constituted.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 16,610
    > @Foxy said:
    > > @OldKingCole said:
    > > Thanks for the header; useful to have an assessment of someone produced as a result of practical experience of their policies.
    > >
    > > While most of the teachers in my family are in their first few practicing years the stories they tell of MAT's bear out Y Doethur's report. It does seem we are returning to a system of education similar to that in early to mid Victorian times, which was ended, because of public dissatisfaction, by Parliamentary action at the end of the 19th Century.
    > >
    > > In agreeing with Mr B2, though on the alternatives to LEA's, I would suggest though that the 'failure' of LEA's was due to the system of local government in this country, with far too many one-party states, and hence Chairs of Education Committees becoming far too powerful. The late Alderman Cyril Smith may be cited as an example.
    > >
    > > Too many of us, of course, are 'experts' on the subject of education, based on hazy memories of being at school!
    >
    > Some form of PR would be of great benefit to breaking up the one party states of Local Government. It is sorely needed

    Totally agree. There are differences between the votes recorded for candidates of the same party, but they are exceptional, and there's often a reason. Thus someone in a neighbouring area at the recent elections was known to be very ill, and therefore received fewer votes than her party colleagues.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 32,051
    Interesting article. Maybe one lesson is that when major reforms are necessary - and I think Gove approached this thinking the Tories might only have one term in office - you shouldn’t make the front-line infantry in that public service feel like the target.

    FWIW - I think there’s a very good case for Gove being a time-limited premier for c.18-24 months, to get Brexit done, and he has the skills of political skulduggery to it, but I’d prefer to not be going into the next GE with him as leader.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 23,393

    Totally agree. There are differences between the votes recorded for candidates of the same party, but they are exceptional, and there's often a reason. Thus someone in a neighbouring area at the recent elections was known to be very ill, and therefore received fewer votes than her party colleagues.

    Likewise. I'm not an expert but my distinct impression is that local government in Scotland has improved dramatically since it came in (admittedly, not hard given what was there before).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 25,966
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    The OP might also have mentioned that as EdSec, Gove continued to sell off school playing fields and left behind a shortage of school places.

    I recall one of the big criticisms of the last Labour government is they hadn’t built out capacity so there was going to be a real issue with a shortage of places in the very near future

    In Gove’s case did he (a) make this worse (b) not address it at all or (c) only partialky address it?
    Depends where you live. In the south, free schools and new academies partially addressed it although they have been at best a mixed success. In the north-east, his reforms driving teachers away through overwork and stress made it much worse.

    I could have listed a dozen failures, as I said.
    Isn’t shortage of teachers is a different (although real) problem? Or is there a legal maximum class size?

    I suspect that @DecrepitJohnL is blaming Gove for something that isn’t his fault.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,634
    I don't have nearly enough knowledge of the English system to judge whether @YDoethur's criticisms are valid. What I would say is that looked at from a Scottish perspective the English system seems dynamic, innovative and willing to address failure in a way that puts Scotland to shame.

    I accept that living in a revolution is no fun and that many teachers will have found the disruption difficult. I also accept that kids have one chance at education and getting yours whilst education is going through one of its upheavals must be very difficult. My son sat his National 5 (O grade) in computing about 10 days ago. The course has changed so much that there were effectively no past papers and no clear idea what was going to be in the exam. I agree with @ydoethur that changes in education need to be made slowly and carefully.

    But to give an example my dear wife went to an absolutely appalling school in Arbroath where 2 children (including her) made it to University and 1 graduated. For some subjects she had more than 8 teachers, few of whom knew much about the subject and for others she had no teacher at all. In maths she failed first time around as most of the curriculum had not been taught. She and a friend went to night school and were the only 2 that passed. The maths "teacher" was furious. The point of this tale of woe is that school is every bit as bad today. Nothing has changed, as our PM might put it. Failure and incompetence is tolerated and endemic. I can't help anything has to be better than that.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 56,180
    Gove was better at DEFRA ! I think at EdSec he was well intentioned with the reforms but clearly some issues as highlighted in the threader
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 23,393
    edited June 3
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    The OP might also have mentioned that as EdSec, Gove continued to sell off school playing fields and left behind a shortage of school places.

    I recall one of the big criticisms of the last Labour government is they hadn’t built out capacity so there was going to be a real issue with a shortage of places in the very near future

    In Gove’s case did he (a) make this worse (b) not address it at all or (c) only partialky address it?
    Depends where you live. In the south, free schools and new academies partially addressed it although they have been at best a mixed success. In the north-east, his reforms driving teachers away through overwork and stress made it much worse.

    I could have listed a dozen failures, as I said.
    Isn’t shortage of teachers is a different (although real) problem? Or is there a legal maximum class size?
    There is no legal maximum, which is why a colleague of mine in Hartlepool has a GCSE class of 37.

    But the classrooms themselves have limits. If they are built for 30, you might squeeze in another 2-3 - then you're in trouble if you can't split the group.

    I've had to do a lot of juggling with timetables this term for this reason, moving oversized groups to bigger classrooms, and it has not been fun.

    And Gove's reforms and the huge workload they above caused have made teacher shortages very much worse. If you are an NQT in one of the aforementioned MATs, with no support, no money, a class of over 30 and colleagues collapsing all around you - how long do you think they last? Twelve months is usual in such circumstances.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 27,803
    @Morris_Dancer said:
    Good morning, everyone.

    Is the problem the Party, or the Commons?

    The Commons voted for us to Leave, refuses to countenance leaving without a deal, and refuses for us to leave with a deal. The Conservatives are not even half the House of Commons, as currently constituted.

    ++++++++++++++++

    There are two problems:

    1. There is a subset of Conservative MPs who either hate the EU with such passion that no deal would be acceptable (did you see what I did there?), or who see voting down everything as a path to Remain

    2. The Labour Party has become so tribal under Corbyn, that even the most EU-sceptic daren't support a "Tory Brexit".

    I don't know who to be more annoyed at: those who don't realise that to leave the EU, you have to have actually leave the EU, or those who think they are being clever in attempting to put party before country.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 50,582
    The shout out to Mr Tyndall seems unnecessary.

    On the wider point, the passionate criticism in the header is quite compelling. I cannot say I've seen what MATs have usefully achieved for starters, and I believe what is said that Gove gets tunnel vision and ploughs through with a bad idea. Him as PM could be bad.

    However, Gove has changed his tune on Brexit, he has responded to a changed situation to some degree even if not enough for some. And we are facing an imminent series of very bad choices.

    Gove would be a gamble in such a situation. He could make things worse. But one of these jokers is going to be PM for a short time at least. A gamble is needed to have any hope of achieving something, a competition of the UK most boring automaton society wont work. Or more charitably, trying to be a dull competent candidate wont.

    Nor will wildly unrealistic promises based on hope alone, but somewhere in that range is someone with ideas and an ability to push through with ideas. Can Gove do that?

    Honestly I dont think anyone can square the governing circle, and absolutely if he gets a bad idea he is not who you want.

    Its not even that I like Gove, though I think him interesting, and I think remaining is the least awful option we have left, but he is interesting and of the prime candidates (Boris, Hunt, Javid, Leadsom, Raab) hes got more appeal.
  • MuninMunin Posts: 6
    Whenever I hear "Gove", I think of two things. The first is this Guardian cartoon from 2012.
    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/cartoon/2012/mar/16/1
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 5,605
    > @ydoethur said:

    > (Btw, civil servants are not there to advise. They are there to administer. There are no experts on education in the department of education, unlike in say Justice or Environment.)

    Civil servants absolutely are there to advise. It's a major part of their job in Whitehall.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 25,966

    Charles said:

    The OP might also have mentioned that as EdSec, Gove continued to sell off school playing fields and left behind a shortage of school places.

    I recall one of the big criticisms of the last Labour government is they hadn’t built out capacity so there was going to be a real issue with a shortage of places in the very near future

    In Gove’s case did he (a) make this worse (b) not address it at all or (c) only partialky address it?
    As I understand it, and leaving aside the attempt to blame Labour, the essential conundrum is Gove stopped LEAs having new schools (remember the jibe that the largest LEA in the country is Michael Gove's desk) and the free school and academy trusts by and large do not have the money to build new schools, especially (see Boris) since per pupil spending was cut, even if they wanted to do so.

    May be free schools were a good idea then. But the unions didn’t like them
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 29,958
    > @rcs1000 said:
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Good morning, everyone.
    >
    > Is the problem the Party, or the Commons?
    >
    > The Commons voted for us to Leave, refuses to countenance leaving without a deal, and refuses for us to leave with a deal. The Conservatives are not even half the House of Commons, as currently constituted.
    >
    > ++++++++++++++++
    >
    > There are two problems:
    >
    > 1. There is a subset of Conservative MPs who either hate the EU with such passion that no deal would be acceptable (did you see what I did there?), or who see voting down everything as a path to Remain
    >
    > 2. The Labour Party has become so tribal under Corbyn, that even the most EU-sceptic daren't support a "Tory Brexit".
    >
    > I don't know who to be more annoyed at: those who don't realise that to leave the EU, you have to have actually leave the EU, or those who think they are being clever in attempting to put party before country.

    The current polling/recent voting shows what the voters think of being clever in attempting to put party before country.

    Epic fail.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Good morning, everyone.

    Is the problem the Party, or the Commons?

    The Commons voted for us to Leave, refuses to countenance leaving without a deal, and refuses for us to leave with a deal. The Conservatives are not even half the House of Commons, as currently constituted.

    Without a snap election, the Commons arithmetic will not change, and results and polling mean there is unlikely to be an election. The new PM might also be advised to phone round the constituency parties to discourage them from any more deselections.

    So the new PM will need to deal with the opposition parties. Perhaps Leavers on the back benches should vote for the candidate who says the nicest things about Jeremy and Nicola, whose support will surely be needed. :wink:
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 32,051
    Off topic, I live in a small Hampshire market town and some climate extinction event banners have appeared on the railings of the main park over the weekend, clearly painted by primary school children.

    You need the permission of the town council to do that (which has just turned Lib Dem) so that fits.

    I have no idea how long they will be there for but yet another example of the creeping politicisation of everyday life.
  • eekeek Posts: 6,326
    > @rcs1000 said:
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Good morning, everyone.
    >
    > Is the problem the Party, or the Commons?
    >
    > The Commons voted for us to Leave, refuses to countenance leaving without a deal, and refuses for us to leave with a deal. The Conservatives are not even half the House of Commons, as currently constituted.
    >
    > ++++++++++++++++
    >
    > There are two problems:
    >
    > 1. There is a subset of Conservative MPs who either hate the EU with such passion that no deal would be acceptable (did you see what I did there?), or who see voting down everything as a path to Remain
    >
    > 2. The Labour Party has become so tribal under Corbyn, that even the most EU-sceptic daren't support a "Tory Brexit".
    >
    > I don't know who to be more annoyed at: those who don't realise that to leave the EU, you have to have actually leave the EU, or those who think they are being clever in attempting to put party before country.

    One problem is that the ERG so successfully destroyed the basis of May's agreement before they read it that no-one outside of the Tory whip can support it.

    Hence the mess we are in...

    The sane (business) approach is to revoke, work out what we want and see if it's worth trying again. Now I know that isn't an option but it removes the time pressure...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 50,582
    Scott_P said:
    Well the title has called it right. Although full blooded no dealers do actually have a plan. But as much as I wanted the deal to pass the WA is dead and trying it again a la Rory is a non starter and the others, Gove too, are basically over working the issue

    You know how with a report that must be approved by dozens of senior people it can be redrafted and tweaked endlessly to the point it makes no sense? The Tory contest on Brexit position is like that, with the additions similarity that everyone focuses in on one minor aspect and it can destroy the whole thing as they argue over one paragraph. Which might well be a paragraph reflecting the law or something just as unbending.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 23,393
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    The OP might also have mentioned that as EdSec, Gove continued to sell off school playing fields and left behind a shortage of school places.

    I recall one of the big criticisms of the last Labour government is they hadn’t built out capacity so there was going to be a real issue with a shortage of places in the very near future

    In Gove’s case did he (a) make this worse (b) not address it at all or (c) only partialky address it?
    As I understand it, and leaving aside the attempt to blame Labour, the essential conundrum is Gove stopped LEAs having new schools (remember the jibe that the largest LEA in the country is Michael Gove's desk) and the free school and academy trusts by and large do not have the money to build new schools, especially (see Boris) since per pupil spending was cut, even if they wanted to do so.

    May be free schools were a good idea then. But the unions didn’t like them
    Free schools were an excellent idea, in theory. However, certain safeguards needed to be applied around their location, management and admissions - and were not. So they have not, up to now been a success, although some of them have done pretty well.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 32,051
    rcs1000 said:

    @Morris_Dancer said:

    Good morning, everyone.



    Is the problem the Party, or the Commons?



    The Commons voted for us to Leave, refuses to countenance leaving without a deal, and refuses for us to leave with a deal. The Conservatives are not even half the House of Commons, as currently constituted.



    ++++++++++++++++



    There are two problems:



    1. There is a subset of Conservative MPs who either hate the EU with such passion that no deal would be acceptable (did you see what I did there?), or who see voting down everything as a path to Remain



    2. The Labour Party has become so tribal under Corbyn, that even the most EU-sceptic daren't support a "Tory Brexit".



    I don't know who to be more annoyed at: those who don't realise that to leave the EU, you have to have actually leave the EU, or those who think they are being clever in attempting to put party before country.

    Both, but I put the ERG first.

    Had they played ball then May would have had at least 300 votes and been able to put far more pressure on Labour over its tribalism, and politically campaigned accordingly if they continued to block it.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,698
    1800 words to explain why why Michael Gove's a pile of poo? A quick glance at his two minute promotional video might have saved on the word count.

    Nonetheless an interesting read and a well deserved boot in the groin of Richard Tyndall. Not the knock-out blow I was hoping for but I suspect those who know him will realise he's less the articulate guest on the Culture Show and more the neocon pal of John Bolton.
  • eekeek Posts: 6,326
    > @kle4 said:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Well the title has called it right. Although full blooded no dealers do actually have a plan. But as much as I wanted the deal to pass the WA is dead and trying it again a la Rory is a non starter and the others, Gove too, are basically over working the issue
    >
    > You know how with a report that must be approved by dozens of senior people it can be redrafted and tweaked endlessly to the point it makes no sense? The Tory contest on Brexit position is like that, with the additions similarity that everyone focuses in on one minor aspect and it can destroy the whole thing as they argue over one paragraph. Which might well be a paragraph reflecting the law or something just as unbending.

    No full blooded no dealers don't have a plan - they have a plan that takes them to the first water stop but don't understand what happens after they pass that point.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 32,051
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    The OP might also have mentioned that as EdSec, Gove continued to sell off school playing fields and left behind a shortage of school places.

    I recall one of the big criticisms of the last Labour government is they hadn’t built out capacity so there was going to be a real issue with a shortage of places in the very near future

    In Gove’s case did he (a) make this worse (b) not address it at all or (c) only partialky address it?
    Depends where you live. In the south, free schools and new academies partially addressed it although they have been at best a mixed success. In the north-east, his reforms driving teachers away through overwork and stress made it much worse.

    I could have listed a dozen failures, as I said.
    Isn’t shortage of teachers is a different (although real) problem? Or is there a legal maximum class size?
    There is no legal maximum, which is why a colleague of mine in Hartlepool has a GCSE class of 37.

    But the classrooms themselves have limits. If they are built for 30, you might squeeze in another 2-3 - then you're in trouble if you can't split the group.

    I've had to do a lot of juggling with timetables this term for this reason, moving oversized groups to bigger classrooms, and it has not been fun.

    And Gove's reforms and the huge workload they above caused have made teacher shortages very much worse. If you are an NQT in one of the aforementioned MATs, with no support, no money, a class of over 30 and colleagues collapsing all around you - how long do you think they last? Twelve months is usual in such circumstances.
    What has Gove done to increase teachers workload?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 23,393
    rkrkrk said:


    Civil servants absolutely are there to advise. It's a major part of their job in Whitehall.

    They can't at education, because they don't know what they're talking about. That's why the outside advisers had to be brought in.

    However, your reply does go a long way towards explaining why the said experts were ignored.

    More worryingly, Spielmann was just the start of failed civil servants trying to take over educational roles they are wholly unfit for. See here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/two-more-career-civil-servants-made-regional-schools-commissioners

    There's an irony that Gove's reforms, sold as setting teachers free to teach, have now brought the dead hand of failed bureaucrats into the heart of education and stifled it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 22,387
    edited June 3
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Good morning, everyone.
    >
    > Is the problem the Party, or the Commons?
    >
    > The Commons voted for us to Leave, refuses to countenance leaving without a deal, and refuses for us to leave with a deal. The Conservatives are not even half the House of Commons, as currently constituted.

    The government with its allies has a majority, and the first place to look when doling out responsibility for failure is to the rebels on its own side. The opposition can hardly be blamed for opposing, but in any event the handful of Tories who opposed from a pro-EU perspective were balanced almost exactly by supporters from the opposition benches. Leaving a whole wodge of ERG and DUP who are to blame.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 50,582
    eek said:

    > @kle4 said:

    >



    >

    >

    >

    > Well the title has called it right. Although full blooded no dealers do actually have a plan. But as much as I wanted the deal to pass the WA is dead and trying it again a la Rory is a non starter and the others, Gove too, are basically over working the issue

    >

    > You know how with a report that must be approved by dozens of senior people it can be redrafted and tweaked endlessly to the point it makes no sense? The Tory contest on Brexit position is like that, with the additions similarity that everyone focuses in on one minor aspect and it can destroy the whole thing as they argue over one paragraph. Which might well be a paragraph reflecting the law or something just as unbending.



    No full blooded no dealers don't have a plan - they have a plan that takes them to the first water stop but don't understand what happens after they pass that point.
    I agree completely, but that first stage of the plan is more a plan than trying to resell the WA or blind hope the WA will change. I dont like their plan but it is more honest in direction than those promising unicorns with the real intention being their plan bs.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,634
    > @Munin said:
    > Whenever I hear "Gove", I think of two things. The first is this Guardian cartoon from 2012.
    > https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/cartoon/2012/mar/16/1

    Superb cartoon. It does highlight an issue with Gove. He is undoubtedly very clever but he has yet to meet a complicated problem that he doesn't have the solution to in a couple of hours and which then becomes the way ahead. As @ydoethur points out this means the quality of the inputs he receives in those hours absolutely critical. Where it is good so is he because he can master a brief very fast. Where it is not he is far too ready to treat reasoned criticism of his solution as obstructionism.

    It seems inevitable to me that a Gove Premiership would inevitably hit the buffers of a poll tax where a bad policy was not stopped. OTOH a number of things would change, unlike the last 3 years, many of them positively. I still think the trade off is likely to be worth it given the absence of a young Ken Clarke.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 23,393

    What has Gove done to increase teachers workload?

    Well, I dunno. How about changing the entire curriculum all the way through from 3 to 18, including complete new sets of exams, within one four year period?

    You don't think that required a fair amount of work, as well as a hell of a lot of money?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 16,610
    An Education issue which particularly concerns me is that of Lifelong Education. The once flourishing Local Authority Evening Class sector has been cut beyond the bone, and voluntary providers such as as the WEA are being forced to rely solely on their own resources. Meanwhile the once lively University Extra-Mural sector is being cut back because of pressure on universities.
    Education doesn't finish at 16,18 or 21, nor is it simply 'technical'. (As in teaching History to potential history teachers!)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 51,900
    Mr. eek, part of that was down to May herself, though. If she'd actually been willing to go for a no deal, she would've gotten a better deal.

    Instead, her empty rhetoric promoted the idea that if you dislike her deal (and a backstop we can't leave without EU permission isn't exactly fantastic) then no deal was perfectly fine.

    A PM who was either more diplomatically astute or simply more willing to contemplate leaving with no deal would've been better. Instead we had the worst of both worlds, neither persuasive enough to get a better deal nor someone who could genuinely make the EU fear a no deal departure. She talked loudly, and carried a small stick.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 23,393
    Anyway, I have to go. Thank you for all the positive feedback (although perhaps @Roger could have been less damning with his faint praise!) and I hope it leads to an interesting discussion.

    Have a good morning.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    kle4 said:

    I agree completely, but that first stage of the plan is more a plan than trying to resell the WA or blind hope the WA will change. I dont like their plan but it is more honest in direction than those promising unicorns with the real intention being their plan bs.

    No Dealers' plan to unite the country and make a success of Brexit

    Step 1: Shoot ourselves in the head.
    Step 2:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 27,803
    @Casino_Royale said:
    Both, but I put the ERG first.

    Had they played ball then May would have had at least 300 votes and been able to put far more pressure on Labour over its tribalism, and politically campaigned accordingly if they continued to block it.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I tend to agree. If the ERG had fallen into line, then the government would have needed to have found just three more votes.

    (And for the record, I also include in my disdain Kate Hoey, who voted against the Withdrawal Agreement for exactly the same reasons as the ERG. She should be ashamed of herself.)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,634
    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, I have to go. Thank you for all the positive feedback (although perhaps @Roger could have been less damning with his faint praise!) and I hope it leads to an interesting discussion.

    Have a good morning.

    Thanks for the header @ydoethur . Much appreciated.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 50,582
    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:


    Civil servants absolutely are there to advise. It's a major part of their job in Whitehall.

    They can't at education, because they don't know what they're talking about. That's why the outside advisers had to be brought in.

    However, your reply does go a long way towards explaining why the said experts were ignored.

    More worryingly, Spielmann was just the start of failed civil servants trying to take over educational roles they are wholly unfit for. See here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/two-more-career-civil-servants-made-regional-schools-commissioners

    There's an irony that Gove's reforms, sold as setting teachers free to teach, have now brought the dead hand of failed bureaucrats into the heart of education and stifled it.
    I'm unclear on who you think ministers should receive advice from if they should ignore civil servants but also not be in the pocket of vested interests in the relevant area, given most people want no change ever.

    Whitehall is full of dumb ideas which dont work to be sure, but I cannot tell how you think ministers could do anything. Listen to the right people, presumably, but who agrees who the right people are?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 25,966

    Off topic, I live in a small Hampshire market town and some climate extinction event banners have appeared on the railings of the main park over the weekend, clearly painted by primary school children.

    You need the permission of the town council to do that (which has just turned Lib Dem) so that fits.

    I have no idea how long they will be there for but yet another example of the creeping politicisation of everyday life.

    At my daughters school pupils are being given time off to rally against trump
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 27,803
    @Morris_Dancer said:
    Instead, her empty rhetoric promoted the idea that if you dislike her deal (and a backstop we can't leave without EU permission isn't exactly fantastic) then no deal was perfectly fine.

    +++++++++

    "a backstop we can't leave without EU permission isn't exactly fantastic"

    But that's not true. We could leave at any time by abrogating the treaty.

    Or we could leave with no consequences if the EU was insincere about agreeing an FTA or implementing a technical solution to the border, via international arbitration.

    (And if the EU was sincere, then the backstop would never come into being.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 50,582
    Scott_P said:

    kle4 said:

    I agree completely, but that first stage of the plan is more a plan than trying to resell the WA or blind hope the WA will change. I dont like their plan but it is more honest in direction than those promising unicorns with the real intention being their plan bs.

    No Dealers' plan to unite the country and make a success of Brexit

    Step 1: Shoot ourselves in the head.
    Step 2:
    Yes, I get it. I dont like their plan. But 'go for no deal by any means necessary' is more of an implementation plan than most of them. It's not endorsement.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 27,803
    @Charles said:
    At my daughters school pupils are being given time off to rally against trump

    ++++++++++++++++

    Ah hem. I think that you should probably clarify which school that is.

    Or perhaps clarify that it's not a British state school.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 22,387
    > @Foxy said:
    > > @OldKingCole said:
    > > Thanks for the header; useful to have an assessment of someone produced as a result of practical experience of their policies.
    > >
    > > While most of the teachers in my family are in their first few practicing years the stories they tell of MAT's bear out Y Doethur's report. It does seem we are returning to a system of education similar to that in early to mid Victorian times, which was ended, because of public dissatisfaction, by Parliamentary action at the end of the 19th Century.
    > >
    > > In agreeing with Mr B2, though on the alternatives to LEA's, I would suggest though that the 'failure' of LEA's was due to the system of local government in this country, with far too many one-party states, and hence Chairs of Education Committees becoming far too powerful. The late Alderman Cyril Smith may be cited as an example.
    > >
    > > Too many of us, of course, are 'experts' on the subject of education, based on hazy memories of being at school!
    >
    > Some form of PR would be of great benefit to breaking up the one party states of Local Government. It is sorely needed

    Was a big mistake by the LibDems not insisting on local government STV, instead of wasting their time with the AV referendum, which would have been worthless to them even if carried. It would be in an implemented by now.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 32,051
    ydoethur said:

    What has Gove done to increase teachers workload?

    Well, I dunno. How about changing the entire curriculum all the way through from 3 to 18, including complete new sets of exams, within one four year period?

    You don't think that required a fair amount of work, as well as a hell of a lot of money?
    But, was that just during the implementation of the reforms themselves - the period of change - or is it also the case in steady-state as well?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 51,900
    Quite like this snippet of info about Petroburgians:
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 22,387
    > @DecrepitJohnL said:
    > The OP might also have mentioned that as EdSec, Gove continued to sell off school playing fields and left behind a shortage of school places.
    >
    > I recall one of the big criticisms of the last Labour government is they hadn’t built out capacity so there was going to be a real issue with a shortage of places in the very near future
    >
    > In Gove’s case did he (a) make this worse (b) not address it at all or (c) only partialky address it?
    >
    > As I understand it, and leaving aside the attempt to blame Labour, the essential conundrum is Gove stopped LEAs having new schools (remember the jibe that the largest LEA in the country is Michael Gove's desk) and the free school and academy trusts by and large do not have the money to build new schools, especially (see Boris) since per pupil spending was cut, even if they wanted to do so.


    Yep (ironically also stopping new grammar schools). Hence my old LA has had to expand almost every one of its existing schools, at the loss of open space on their sites, and leaving many of our primary schools having over 1000 pupils.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,634
    rcs1000 said:

    @Casino_Royale said:

    Both, but I put the ERG first.



    Had they played ball then May would have had at least 300 votes and been able to put far more pressure on Labour over its tribalism, and politically campaigned accordingly if they continued to block it.



    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



    I tend to agree. If the ERG had fallen into line, then the government would have needed to have found just three more votes.



    (And for the record, I also include in my disdain Kate Hoey, who voted against the Withdrawal Agreement for exactly the same reasons as the ERG. She should be ashamed of herself.)

    As Alastair has pointed out on many occasions the willingness of the ERG to condemn the WA gave others the cover to oppose it too. Their stupidity and short sightedness is truly epic. OTOH I think most of the problems were caused by May's ex cathedra presentation of the WA at Chequers with no consensus building or even involvement of the various interest groups up to an including her SoS for DexEU. It was spectacularly inept politics.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 32,051
    DavidL said:

    > @Munin said:

    > Whenever I hear "Gove", I think of two things. The first is this Guardian cartoon from 2012.

    > https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/cartoon/2012/mar/16/1



    Superb cartoon. It does highlight an issue with Gove. He is undoubtedly very clever but he has yet to meet a complicated problem that he doesn't have the solution to in a couple of hours and which then becomes the way ahead. As @ydoethur points out this means the quality of the inputs he receives in those hours absolutely critical. Where it is good so is he because he can master a brief very fast. Where it is not he is far too ready to treat reasoned criticism of his solution as obstructionism.



    It seems inevitable to me that a Gove Premiership would inevitably hit the buffers of a poll tax where a bad policy was not stopped. OTOH a number of things would change, unlike the last 3 years, many of them positively. I still think the trade off is likely to be worth it given the absence of a young Ken Clarke.

    My view is that Gove as PM would go full Greta Thunberg. He wouldn’t know where to stop, and would therefore likely piss a lot of Conservatives off. I could, for example, see him introducing a tax on red meat in short order, taxing fuel more harshly and draconian rules on household waste.

    That said, he might also introduce innovative reforms to taxation, housebuilding, business investment and infrastructure domestically - as well as doing Brexit - because he is phenomenally capable of doing many things at once, very quickly.

    But, we simply won’t know what it is we’ll really get and, once he’s in, he’s in.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 16,053
    Thank you @ydoethur for a very interesting header. Like others have said, good to get a view from someone in the front line.

    My daughter contemplated being a teacher, having done some work as a teaching assistant with primary age children as a student. She loves the actual teaching and would be well suited I think. But she decided against because of the horror stories she had heard from some graduates who had gone into it (and left) and other more experienced teachers. It seems to me to be a shame that the perception of what teaching is like is putting off new entrants. There are 4 teachers in our family, one of whom recently retired after becoming the longest serving teacher in Cumbria. I will show them this article and see what they think.

    I have no idea who of the candidates would be best for the country. It seems pointless speculating because the choice will be made on the basis of who is best for the party and who can get Brexit over the line, with scarcely a moment’s thought for what happens next. There will be a book to be written on how the Tories have managed to self-destruct since winning their unexpected 2015 election victory.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 5,605
    "In a-levels, the results have been far more serious. It is now so difficult to do mathematics that very few are doing it."

    A level maths is the most popular A level choice and has been increasing in popularity for at least the past 5 years, so it seems strange that the author thinks "very few do it".

    https://www.hepi.ac.uk/2018/08/18/perspectives-2018-level-results/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 27,803
    Worth mentioning that Gove and Trump would probably get along very well. In many ways, they're similar people: intellectually curious, interested in policy, years of public service.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 9,821
    Very concerned about this piece. My daughter got a 9 in GCSE history (with OCR - scoring 186/210) last year, can you explain why it's now worthless please?
  • eekeek Posts: 6,326
    > @rkrkrk said:
    > "In a-levels, the results have been far more serious. It is now so difficult to do mathematics that very few are doing it."
    >
    > A level maths is the most popular A level choice and has been increasing in popularity for at least the past 5 years, so it seems strange that the author thinks "very few do it".
    >
    > https://www.hepi.ac.uk/2018/08/18/perspectives-2018-level-results/

    The 2019 A level maths course is very different from the 2018 one - it's blooming hard work and a lot of people are dropping out of it,
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,634

    DavidL said:

    > @Munin said:

    > Whenever I hear "Gove", I think of two things. The first is this Guardian cartoon from 2012.

    > https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/cartoon/2012/mar/16/1



    Superb cartoon. It does highlight an issue with Gove. He is undoubtedly very clever but he has yet to meet a complicated problem that he doesn't have the solution to in a couple of hours and which then becomes the way ahead. As @ydoethur points out this means the quality of the inputs he receives in those hours absolutely critical. Where it is good so is he because he can master a brief very fast. Where it is not he is far too ready to treat reasoned criticism of his solution as obstructionism.



    It seems inevitable to me that a Gove Premiership would inevitably hit the buffers of a poll tax where a bad policy was not stopped. OTOH a number of things would change, unlike the last 3 years, many of them positively. I still think the trade off is likely to be worth it given the absence of a young Ken Clarke.

    My view is that Gove as PM would go full Greta Thunberg. He wouldn’t know where to stop, and would therefore likely piss a lot of Conservatives off. I could, for example, see him introducing a tax on red meat in short order, taxing fuel more harshly and draconian rules on household waste.

    That said, he might also introduce innovative reforms to taxation, housebuilding, business investment and infrastructure domestically - as well as doing Brexit - because he is phenomenally capable of doing many things at once, very quickly.

    But, we simply won’t know what it is we’ll really get and, once he’s in, he’s in.
    I think that we are on the same page. Gove is a gamble but given where we are and what the choices are it may be a gamble worth taking.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 3,926
    As the OP points out, Govey is responsible for the Trusts debacle. My local school is currently under threat of closure. It is a sub-10 years old school with brilliant facilities. It has a genuinely dynamic principal who has driven pride and performance into the school. And we have a shortage of high school places.

    Why closure? Because its current MAT have done such an excretably bad job that they are shifting their schools on and closing down. All their schools except ours, where a fall in student numbers (caused by them) makes it less financially lucrative and so not snaffled up yet. It is absurd that a new school with great facilities and progress on results and culture should be threatened with closure. But having become an academy it is of course illegal to be anything other than an academy.

    Either the private sector takes it on. Or it closes. Because thats definitely whats best for its students isn't it Mr Gove you utter spanner. Entertainingly, the local Tories - buoyed by their "success" in nationalising the airport - are mobilised demanding it be converted to a Free School.

    They presumably are encouraged by the other local Free School who inters students in punishment booths for 7 hours a day for major offences like looking out the window. Another glorious Tory education triumph. Which leadership contender is going to pledge to bring back the wheel thing off the beginning of Oliver Twist?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 32,051
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @Casino_Royale said:

    Both, but I put the ERG first.



    Had they played ball then May would have had at least 300 votes and been able to put far more pressure on Labour over its tribalism, and politically campaigned accordingly if they continued to block it.



    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



    I tend to agree. If the ERG had fallen into line, then the government would have needed to have found just three more votes.



    (And for the record, I also include in my disdain Kate Hoey, who voted against the Withdrawal Agreement for exactly the same reasons as the ERG. She should be ashamed of herself.)

    As Alastair has pointed out on many occasions the willingness of the ERG to condemn the WA gave others the cover to oppose it too. Their stupidity and short sightedness is truly epic. OTOH I think most of the problems were caused by May's ex cathedra presentation of the WA at Chequers with no consensus building or even involvement of the various interest groups up to an including her SoS for DexEU. It was spectacularly inept politics.
    She also shat the bed when she lost the Conservatives majority in GE2017.

    But, on the numbers who opposed it, even if she’d won - say - a majority of 50 in that election she’d have still had a big problem with the ERG, who might have considered No Deal more politically feasible with that bigger conservative caucus.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,634
    > @eek said:
    > > @rkrkrk said:
    > > "In a-levels, the results have been far more serious. It is now so difficult to do mathematics that very few are doing it."
    > >
    > > A level maths is the most popular A level choice and has been increasing in popularity for at least the past 5 years, so it seems strange that the author thinks "very few do it".
    > >
    > > https://www.hepi.ac.uk/2018/08/18/perspectives-2018-level-results/
    >
    > The 2019 A level maths course is very different from the 2018 one - it's blooming hard work and a lot of people are dropping out of it,

    The piece you have linked to says that 1 in 8 pupils do A level Maths which may be the most popular but still seems far too few. Again from a Scottish perspective one of the problems with A levels is that there is an excessive level of specialisation at too early a stage. Most able Scottish students will do 5 Highers one of which is normally maths.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,213
    Charles said:

    Off topic, I live in a small Hampshire market town and some climate extinction event banners have appeared on the railings of the main park over the weekend, clearly painted by primary school children.

    You need the permission of the town council to do that (which has just turned Lib Dem) so that fits.

    I have no idea how long they will be there for but yet another example of the creeping politicisation of everyday life.

    At my daughters school pupils are being given time off to rally against trump
    Would they have been given the same time off for Xi’s visit? It looks likely that the next major flashpoint will be the PRC invading* Taiwan.

    *They would say reunification but that rarely comes under threat of nuclear annahailation and is generally taken to be a two way process.
  • John_McLeanJohn_McLean Posts: 71
    > @rcs1000 said:
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Good morning, everyone.
    >
    > Is the problem the Party, or the Commons?
    >
    > The Commons voted for us to Leave, refuses to countenance leaving without a deal, and refuses for us to leave with a deal. The Conservatives are not even half the House of Commons, as currently constituted.
    >
    > ++++++++++++++++
    >
    > There are two problems:
    >
    > 1. There is a subset of Conservative MPs who either hate the EU with such passion that no deal would be acceptable (did you see what I did there?), or who see voting down everything as a path to Remain
    >
    > 2. The Labour Party has become so tribal under Corbyn, that even the most EU-sceptic daren't support a "Tory Brexit".
    >
    > I don't know who to be more annoyed at: those who don't realise that to leave the EU, you have to have actually leave the EU, or those who think they are being clever in attempting to put party before country.

    See Conservative Party, as the largest party in the House of Commons, is the Government. See the Labour Party, as the second largest party in the House of Commons, is the Opposition. The way our version of democracy works is that the Government proposes, the Opposition questions. If the Government is unable to pass it's legislation, then in times past, it fell and a General Election is called. If the majority of the electorate wish the previous government to return, then the voters will put their crosses on the ballot paper for them, if the electorate wish a new government to come in, then the mass of the electorate will put their cross against the party they wish to be in government.

    It is not the game in that the Opposition sucks up the s**t the government has decided to say and then follow like sheep into the lobbies. See when the Tories go into opposition, as they will sometime, there will be no chance that any of their supporters will demand that their MP's will be allowed to vote with the Labour (or whatever other government) Party for "the good of the country"
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 5,605
    Suspect Ken Clarke was on the money with his assessment of Gove last time
    To be fair to Gove though, his announcement he'd be prepared to delay Brexit to block No Deal, is responsible and brave.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    As a parent of two children who are just finishing primary school I cannot disagree with this article enough.

    Schools exists to benefit parents and provide a service to educate their children. They don’t exist to keep teachers out of the pub.

    Our school has gone to from a wish’s washy failing school to “Good” post Gove.

    Plenty to genuinely quiz Gove on but his time in DoE isn’t it.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 13,606
    Interesting article. ydoethur puts the case passionately and clearly. I don't know enough about the education system to argue.

    What we can perhaps agree on is this. Gove is energetic, intelligent, unafraid of special interest groups and eager to pursue a distinctive agenda rather than merely potter along. Since special interest groups are sometimes right, this can be dangerous. Gove is therefore a risk where someone more innocuous (Hancock, say) is not. But he is up to the job, and that is a qualification not to be despised in this remarkably barren contest. If Gove chooses to major on things which turn out badly, we can vote him out. And really, should the Tories choose Prime Ministers on the basis that they are too dim or too timid to do anything distinctive?

    He is, of course, a skilled politician, and made a nasty speech about Corbyn. I don't approve, but I don't really expect otherwise of a Tory leader. I wouldn't dream of voting Tory whoever they choose, but trying to be objective I think they could do much worse (and probably will).

    PS Like kle4 I think potshots at named contributors should be edited out of headers; they look in-groupy to the wider audience that we hope to interest. I like Richard Tyndall anyway but that's not the point.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 9,157
    I disagree with posters saying the competition so far has been awful and highlighted a dearth of talent. I'd be the first to say that if I thought it were true. I think it has been pretty good, and actually brought some people to the fore (Rory Stewart, Kit Malthouse for me) who deserve to get more of a hearing.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 4,064


    FWIW - I think there’s a very good case for Gove being a time-limited premier for c.18-24 months, to get Brexit done, and he has the skills of political skulduggery to it, but I’d prefer to not be going into the next GE with him as leader.

    The fucking weirdo hasn't even won yet and the tories are already digging a shallow grave.

    Maybe it's the product not the charlatan charged with flogging it.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    DavidL said:

    As Alastair has pointed out on many occasions the willingness of the ERG to condemn the WA gave others the cover to oppose it too. Their stupidity and short sightedness is truly epic. OTOH I think most of the problems were caused by May's ex cathedra presentation of the WA at Chequers with no consensus building or even involvement of the various interest groups up to an including her SoS for DexEU. It was spectacularly inept politics.

    Ex cathedra presentation; no consultation; no consensus building. But (witness this thread) all those criticisms of May can surely also be levelled at Michael Gove. Spectacularly inept politics.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 7,627
    > @Luckyguy1983 said:
    > I disagree with posters saying the competition so far has been awful and highlighted a dearth of talent. I'd be the first to say that if I thought it were true. I think it has been pretty good, and actually brought some people to the fore (Rory Stewart, Kit Malthouse for me) who deserve to get more of a hearing.

    Rory Stewart is the candidate that the Tories need to choose, but they won't.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 3,238

    Good morning, everyone.

    Is the problem the Party, or the Commons?

    The Commons voted for us to Leave, refuses to countenance leaving without a deal, and refuses for us to leave with a deal. The Conservatives are not even half the House of Commons, as currently constituted.

    It’s mostly the fault of the ERG, with the DUP a strong contender for runner-up. I realise this may be difficult for you to accept.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 9,157

    > @Luckyguy1983 said:

    > I disagree with posters saying the competition so far has been awful and highlighted a dearth of talent. I'd be the first to say that if I thought it were true. I think it has been pretty good, and actually brought some people to the fore (Rory Stewart, Kit Malthouse for me) who deserve to get more of a hearing.



    Rory Stewart is the candidate that the Tories need to choose, but they won't.

    No, but that would be a mighty big leap for him. I hope he gets a ministerial position to prove himself, and I'm optimistic he will.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 7,627
    > @rcs1000 said:
    > Worth mentioning that Gove and Trump would probably get along very well. In many ways, they're similar people: intellectually curious, interested in policy, years of public service.

    " intellectually curious, interested in policy, years of public service"
    Trump?
    Oh sorry, were you being ironic?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 5,605
    > @DavidL said:
    > > @eek said:
    > > > @rkrkrk said:
    > > > "In a-levels, the results have been far more serious. It is now so difficult to do mathematics that very few are doing it."
    > > >
    > > > A level maths is the most popular A level choice and has been increasing in popularity for at least the past 5 years, so it seems strange that the author thinks "very few do it".
    > > >
    > > > https://www.hepi.ac.uk/2018/08/18/perspectives-2018-level-results/
    > >
    > > The 2019 A level maths course is very different from the 2018 one - it's blooming hard work and a lot of people are dropping out of it,
    >
    > The piece you have linked to says that 1 in 8 pupils do A level Maths which may be the most popular but still seems far too few. Again from a Scottish perspective one of the problems with A levels is that there is an excessive level of specialisation at too early a stage. Most able Scottish students will do 5 Highers one of which is normally maths.

    I think you're right that we need more people studying maths for longer.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 32,315
    Some context for anything Trump says about a trade deal and a No Deal Brexit ...

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 3,926
    > @TGOHF said:
    > As a parent of two children who are just finishing primary school I cannot disagree with this article enough.
    >
    > Schools exists to benefit parents and provide a service to educate their children. They don’t exist to keep teachers out of the pub.
    >
    > Our school has gone to from a wish’s washy failing school to “Good” post Gove.
    >
    > Plenty to genuinely quiz Gove on but his time in DoE isn’t it.

    Can you accept that this is anecdotage? Your school has done well due to Gove. My school has gone to hell due to Gove. My example is also anecdotage...
This discussion has been closed.