Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Michael Gove – the case against

2456

Comments

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 32,338
    edited June 3
    On topic - a complete fetishisation of exam results over all else has led schools to focus on teaching kids how to pass exams rather than teaching them how to acquire knowledge and then learning how to apply it. This all stems from seeing the PISA results - and international comparison tables - as the be all and end all of state education. This problem pre-dates Gove, but he did nothing to address it and it remains unaddressed. The consequence is a perpetually disgruntled teaching profession and millions of stressed children alongside growing levels of mental illness among young people. Then there are the cuts on top. It's not good.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 2,679
    > @Cyclefree said:
    > Thank you @ydoethur for a very interesting header. Like others have said, good to get a view from someone in the front line.
    >
    > My daughter contemplated being a teacher, having done some work as a teaching assistant with primary age children as a student. She loves the actual teaching and would be well suited I think. But she decided against because of the horror stories she had heard from some graduates who had gone into it (and left) and other more experienced teachers. It seems to me to be a shame that the perception of what teaching is like is putting off new entrants. There are 4 teachers in our family, one of whom recently retired after becoming the longest serving teacher in Cumbria. I will show them this article and see what they think.
    >
    > I have no idea who of the candidates would be best for the country. It seems pointless speculating because the choice will be made on the basis of who is best for the party and who can get Brexit over the line, with scarcely a moment’s thought for what happens next. There will be a book to be written on how the Tories have managed to self-destruct since winning their unexpected 2015 election victory.

    The merits of the various leadership candidates are pretty irrelevant because the choice is going to made by a small selectorate of predominantly elderly rabid Brexiteers.

    Even if most of the candidates believe that leaving without a deal at the end of Oct will be a disaster they will all have to pretend it isn't to appease the membership. I see no good way forward from here and am becoming increasingly indifferent as to who governs Brexit Britain. After never failing to vote for 50 years I haven't voted for anything since 2016.

    We have a Buggin's turn electoral system and both parties have been captured by unrepresentative cliques. The system is broken and shows no sign of being repaired.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 4,073

    > @Luckyguy1983 said:

    > I disagree with posters saying the competition so far has been awful and highlighted a dearth of talent. I'd be the first to say that if I thought it were true. I think it has been pretty good, and actually brought some people to the fore (Rory Stewart, Kit Malthouse for me) who deserve to get more of a hearing.



    Rory Stewart is the candidate that the Tories need to choose, but they won't.

    His Brexit plan, as far as it can be discerned through the blizzard of memes, is just May's shit deal. Which he can't get through the HoC with a GE which he can't trigger. So he's just as fucked in the head as the rest of them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 50,748
    OllyT said:

    > @Cyclefree said:

    > Thank you @ydoethur for a very interesting header. Like others have said, good to get a view from someone in the front line.

    >

    > My daughter contemplated being a teacher, having done some work as a teaching assistant with primary age children as a student. She loves the actual teaching and would be well suited I think. But she decided against because of the horror stories she had heard from some graduates who had gone into it (and left) and other more experienced teachers. It seems to me to be a shame that the perception of what teaching is like is putting off new entrants. There are 4 teachers in our family, one of whom recently retired after becoming the longest serving teacher in Cumbria. I will show them this article and see what they think.

    >

    > I have no idea who of the candidates would be best for the country. It seems pointless speculating because the choice will be made on the basis of who is best for the party and who can get Brexit over the line, with scarcely a moment’s thought for what happens next. There will be a book to be written on how the Tories have managed to self-destruct since winning their unexpected 2015 election victory.



    The merits of the various leadership candidates are pretty irrelevant because the choice is going to made by a small selectorate of predominantly elderly rabid Brexiteers.



    Even if most of the candidates believe that leaving without a deal at the end of Oct will be a disaster they will all have to pretend it isn't to appease the membership. I see no good way forward from here and am becoming increasingly indifferent as to who governs Brexit Britain. After never failing to vote for 50 years I haven't voted for anything since 2016.



    We have a Buggin's turn electoral system and both parties have been captured by unrepresentative cliques. The system is broken and shows no sign of being repaired.

    They seem pretty representative cliques, sadly.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 50,748
    Dura_Ace said:

    > @Luckyguy1983 said:

    > I disagree with posters saying the competition so far has been awful and highlighted a dearth of talent. I'd be the first to say that if I thought it were true. I think it has been pretty good, and actually brought some people to the fore (Rory Stewart, Kit Malthouse for me) who deserve to get more of a hearing.



    Rory Stewart is the candidate that the Tories need to choose, but they won't.

    His Brexit plan, as far as it can be discerned through the blizzard of memes, is just May's shit deal. Which he can't get through the HoC with a GE which he can't trigger. So he's just as fucked in the head as the rest of them.
    I woukdnt put it that way, but it is true his plan is not one which explains how he will achieve it, and thus no plan.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 20,212
    > @NickPalmer said:
    > Interesting article. ydoethur puts the case passionately and clearly. I don't know enough about the education system to argue.
    >
    > What we can perhaps agree on is this. Gove is energetic, intelligent, unafraid of special interest groups and eager to pursue a distinctive agenda rather than merely potter along. Since special interest groups are sometimes right, this can be dangerous. Gove is therefore a risk where someone more innocuous (Hancock, say) is not. But he is up to the job, and that is a qualification not to be despised in this remarkably barren contest. If Gove chooses to major on things which turn out badly, we can vote him out. And really, should the Tories choose Prime Ministers on the basis that they are too dim or too timid to do anything distinctive?
    >
    > He is, of course, a skilled politician, and made a nasty speech about Corbyn. I don't approve, but I don't really expect otherwise of a Tory leader. I wouldn't dream of voting Tory whoever they choose, but trying to be objective I think they could do much worse (and probably will).
    >
    > PS Like kle4 I think potshots at named contributors should be edited out of headers; they look in-groupy to the wider audience that we hope to interest. I like Richard Tyndall anyway but that's not the point.

    To defend Y Doethur on this point I dont take offence at all. If I am going to engage in these arguments - and this one between us has a long history - then I should not expect him to pull any punches. If I were bothered by it I could gave complained but I have not as I don't consider it out of order.

    I do think the piece is a classic case of vested interests railing against someone who tried to take them on. The fact that Gove failed is a great shame as it leaves our education in the same parlous, declining state it had been for decades. And in no small part that is due to the teaching profession themselves
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Finding a leader that can lead the Country successfully from any political party is about as likely as MP's agreeing to any Brexit deal.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 13,614
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Quite like this snippet of info about Petroburgians:
    >

    If you say so, Dr Young. But I'm not seeing much in the way of coverage at all, apart from a 24-hour flurry about the Labour candidate once liking a dodgy FB post, and Gordon Brown spending a lot of time helping there. How do we think it's going?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 3,937
    I'm off to London later this afternoon, and contemplating a quiet stroll down the Mall as there is absolutely nothing at all happening down there...

    All these Trump protesters - forget the individual. This is a State Visit. Which means its the US President coming to meet the Queen to commemorate 75 years of the D-Day Landings. It is entirely right that Trump come here and have the red carpet laid out. As it would be if Clinton had won, or if Trump had already been impeached and Pence was President.

    It's not about the individual man. Its about the office he holds and the shared history in blood between our countries. Protesters should take a breath and remember what D-Day was about - preserving the right to vote and to chose a leader. You don't like Trump? Great! And because we had D-Day America gets to have another election next year.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 25,154

    I've yet to see any evidence that Gove is a leader of men. He might be great as a snitch, a gossip, a leaker, an information broker. Arguably all very useful tools of the trade for getting up the greasy political pole. But hardly what is required at this time, when we need someone with the authority to fix the broken collective responsibilty of Cabinet.

    You describe him well, an odious unprincipled devious little creep.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 27,186
    Morning all,

    Our regular reminder that FTPA is crap. This week's is an on-going thread and debate with Rentoul about how parliament stops No Deal:

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 25,154

    > @Luckyguy1983 said:

    > I disagree with posters saying the competition so far has been awful and highlighted a dearth of talent. I'd be the first to say that if I thought it were true. I think it has been pretty good, and actually brought some people to the fore (Rory Stewart, Kit Malthouse for me) who deserve to get more of a hearing.



    Rory Stewart is the candidate that the Tories need to choose, but they won't.

    That shows what a state the country is in, our best hope is a donkey.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 27,186
    > @NickPalmer said:
    > > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > > Quite like this snippet of info about Petroburgians:
    > >
    >
    > If you say so, Dr Young. But I'm not seeing much in the way of coverage at all, apart from a 24-hour flurry about the Labour candidate once liking a dodgy FB post, and Gordon Brown spending a lot of time helping there. How do we think it's going?

    Observer did a visit and report yesterday.

    Sounds like a win for BXP to me, but who knows these febrile times. Turn out as ever and GOTV will be the factor.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,319
    Interesting article Y Doethur, thank you.

    Yes I think Gove and Hunt will have problems with the reforms they tried to push through in education and health and scrutiny of how successful they were
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 7,628
    > @RochdalePioneers said:
    > I'm off to London later this afternoon, and contemplating a quiet stroll down the Mall as there is absolutely nothing at all happening down there...
    >
    > All these Trump protesters - forget the individual. This is a State Visit. Which means its the US President coming to meet the Queen to commemorate 75 years of the D-Day Landings. It is entirely right that Trump come here and have the red carpet laid out. As it would be if Clinton had won, or if Trump had already been impeached and Pence was President.
    >
    > It's not about the individual man. Its about the office he holds and the shared history in blood between our countries. Protesters should take a breath and remember what D-Day was about - preserving the right to vote and to chose a leader. You don't like Trump? Great! And because we had D-Day America gets to have another election next year.

    Trump might even commemorate D Day - provided it isn't raining of course.
    https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-rain-world-war-1-castigated-for-missing-event-paris-armistice/
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 20,212
    > @Roger said:
    > 1800 words to explain why why Michael Gove's a pile of poo? A quick glance at his two minute promotional video might have saved on the word count.
    >
    > Nonetheless an interesting read and a well deserved boot in the groin of Richard Tyndall. Not the knock-out blow I was hoping for but I suspect those who know him will realise he's less the articulate guest on the Culture Show and more the neocon pal of John Bolton.
    >
    >

    Dont worry Roger I will go on engaging in the arguments and you can carry on defending and excusing rapists and other assorted sex offenders.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,319
    > @NickPalmer said:
    > > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > > Quite like this snippet of info about Petroburgians:
    > >
    >
    > If you say so, Dr Young. But I'm not seeing much in the way of coverage at all, apart from a 24-hour flurry about the Labour candidate once liking a dodgy FB post, and Gordon Brown spending a lot of time helping there. How do we think it's going?

    I believe Farage, Boris and Corbyn were all in Peterborough at the weekend.

    It looks like a Brexit Party gain but I would not rule out Labour, especially if they get their vote out
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 25,154
    Charles said:

    Off topic, I live in a small Hampshire market town and some climate extinction event banners have appeared on the railings of the main park over the weekend, clearly painted by primary school children.

    You need the permission of the town council to do that (which has just turned Lib Dem) so that fits.

    I have no idea how long they will be there for but yet another example of the creeping politicisation of everyday life.

    At my daughters school pupils are being given time off to rally against trump
    Sounds like a pretty crap school, obviously education not high up their list of priorities.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 27,186
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting article Y Doethur, thank you.



    Yes I think Gove and Hunt will have problems with the reforms they tried to push through in education and health and scrutiny of how successful they were

    :lol: I very much doubt this leadership race will feature such esoteric discussions. This will be a total Brexit civil war.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,319
    > @OllyT said:
    > > @Cyclefree said:
    > > Thank you @ydoethur for a very interesting header. Like others have said, good to get a view from someone in the front line.
    > >
    > > My daughter contemplated being a teacher, having done some work as a teaching assistant with primary age children as a student. She loves the actual teaching and would be well suited I think. But she decided against because of the horror stories she had heard from some graduates who had gone into it (and left) and other more experienced teachers. It seems to me to be a shame that the perception of what teaching is like is putting off new entrants. There are 4 teachers in our family, one of whom recently retired after becoming the longest serving teacher in Cumbria. I will show them this article and see what they think.
    > >
    > > I have no idea who of the candidates would be best for the country. It seems pointless speculating because the choice will be made on the basis of who is best for the party and who can get Brexit over the line, with scarcely a moment’s thought for what happens next. There will be a book to be written on how the Tories have managed to self-destruct since winning their unexpected 2015 election victory.
    >
    > The merits of the various leadership candidates are pretty irrelevant because the choice is going to made by a small selectorate of predominantly elderly rabid Brexiteers.
    >
    > Even if most of the candidates believe that leaving without a deal at the end of Oct will be a disaster they will all have to pretend it isn't to appease the membership. I see no good way forward from here and am becoming increasingly indifferent as to who governs Brexit Britain. After never failing to vote for 50 years I haven't voted for anything since 2016.
    >
    > We have a Buggin's turn electoral system and both parties have been captured by unrepresentative cliques. The system is broken and shows no sign of being repaired.

    Yet both the Brexit Party and LDs have led a Westminster opinion poll in the last week and both took the top 2 places in the European Parliament elections.

    The main parties are actually at their weakest point for decades
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 12,264
    > @Casino_Royale said:
    > > @Foxy said:
    > > Thanks @ydoethur for the header. I voted Conservative in 2010 for much the same reasons as yourself. Like everyone else I am an expert on education as I once went to school and took exams! Health care suffers the same problem as everyone has once been to the doctor...
    > >
    > > I too am unconvinced by Gove. Energy is not necessarily a good thing when interfering with systems that need refreshing and revising rather than revolution. Health has suffered the same toxic ideological approach from a number of Secretaries of State for Health. Indeed one of the reasons that I am fairly pro Hunt, and to a lesser extent Hancock, is that they haven't attempted revolution. Hunt is perhaps best known for his dispute with the Junior Doctors, and that did end in failure, with a new contract that is overly complex and restrictive while singly failing to deliver. Hunt did have the sense to declare victory and move on, quietly dropping plans to do the same to other staff groups including my own.
    > >
    > > So far as I can see there are only two good features to Brexit, the first being the destruction of the Tory party and to a lesser extent Corbynism. The second is that it has so consumed political energy that there has been little attempt by any minister at revolution in their departments, which are quietly ticking over under the Civil Servants while the politicians plot and fued over how many angels can dance on the head of an Irish backstop.
    > >
    >
    > I seem to recall you were spitting teeth about Hunt three years ago?

    Not really. His mismanagement of the contract dispute apart, he has not been the worst Health Secretary. I have never been particularly anti-Hunt. I have pretty low expectations of SoS Health generally, and he has not been as useless as many.
  • isamisam Posts: 28,736
    HYUFD said:

    > @NickPalmer said:

    > > @Morris_Dancer said:

    > > Quite like this snippet of info about Petroburgians:

    > >



    >

    > If you say so, Dr Young. But I'm not seeing much in the way of coverage at all, apart from a 24-hour flurry about the Labour candidate once liking a dodgy FB post, and Gordon Brown spending a lot of time helping there. How do we think it's going?



    I believe Farage, Boris and Corbyn were all in Peterborough at the weekend.



    It looks like a Brexit Party gain but I would not rule out Labour, especially if they get their vote out
    The real story will be if The Brexit Party win by less than an arbitrary amount in one of their opponents supporters heads
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,319
    edited June 3
    > @logical_song said:
    > > @Luckyguy1983 said:
    > > I disagree with posters saying the competition so far has been awful and highlighted a dearth of talent. I'd be the first to say that if I thought it were true. I think it has been pretty good, and actually brought some people to the fore (Rory Stewart, Kit Malthouse for me) who deserve to get more of a hearing.
    >
    > Rory Stewart is the candidate that the Tories need to choose, but they won't.

    Is he? Boris was top with both Tories and voters as a whole to succeed May with Deltapoll yesterday, Rory was last.

    I like Rory but there is little evidence he would win a general election for the Tories
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 51,909
    Anyone think the Lib Dems or Conservatives have a chance in the by-election?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 27,186
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Anyone think the Lib Dems or Conservatives have a chance in the by-election?

    Nope.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    > @NickPalmer said:
    > > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > > Quite like this snippet of info about Petroburgians:
    > >
    >
    > If you say so, Dr Young. But I'm not seeing much in the way of coverage at all, apart from a 24-hour flurry about the Labour candidate once liking a dodgy FB post, and Gordon Brown spending a lot of time helping there. How do we think it's going?

    “Once liking a dodgy FB post”
    This is what she liked:

    “Unfortunately our leader Theresa May feeds off this rhetoric to keep her Zionist Slave Masters agenda alive.”

    And

    “evidence in hand of the funding and creation of such extremists by the CIA and Mossad supported by British Imperialism.”

    And

    https://mobile.twitter.com/magnitsky/status/1134738319571673088/photo/2


    The context of where Labour currently are, is it right to dismiss this so easily?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 32,169
    Dura_Ace said:

    > @Luckyguy1983 said:

    > I disagree with posters saying the competition so far has been awful and highlighted a dearth of talent. I'd be the first to say that if I thought it were true. I think it has been pretty good, and actually brought some people to the fore (Rory Stewart, Kit Malthouse for me) who deserve to get more of a hearing.



    Rory Stewart is the candidate that the Tories need to choose, but they won't.

    His Brexit plan, as far as it can be discerned through the blizzard of memes, is just May's shit deal. Which he can't get through the HoC with a GE which he can't trigger. So he's just as fucked in the head as the rest of them.
    But, you’ll never have a good word to say about any Tory, regardless of who they are or what they do.

    The only one you seem to be equivocal on is Steve Baker, because you have an inkling of respect for his ideological purity, and probably also (unsaid) because you hope & expect the same to destroy the Conservatives as a political force.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,319
    > @Scott_P said:
    >

    Boris certainly sees himself as Churchill though Churchill's grandson, Sir Nicholas Soames is backing Rory Stewart
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 32,169
    Foxy said:

    > @Casino_Royale said:

    > > @Foxy said:

    > > Thanks @ydoethur for the header. I voted Conservative in 2010 for much the same reasons as yourself. Like everyone else I am an expert on education as I once went to school and took exams! Health care suffers the same problem as everyone has once been to the doctor...

    > >

    > > I too am unconvinced by Gove. Energy is not necessarily a good thing when interfering with systems that need refreshing and revising rather than revolution. Health has suffered the same toxic ideological approach from a number of Secretaries of State for Health. Indeed one of the reasons that I am fairly pro Hunt, and to a lesser extent Hancock, is that they haven't attempted revolution. Hunt is perhaps best known for his dispute with the Junior Doctors, and that did end in failure, with a new contract that is overly complex and restrictive while singly failing to deliver. Hunt did have the sense to declare victory and move on, quietly dropping plans to do the same to other staff groups including my own.

    > >

    > > So far as I can see there are only two good features to Brexit, the first being the destruction of the Tory party and to a lesser extent Corbynism. The second is that it has so consumed political energy that there has been little attempt by any minister at revolution in their departments, which are quietly ticking over under the Civil Servants while the politicians plot and fued over how many angels can dance on the head of an Irish backstop.

    > >

    >

    > I seem to recall you were spitting teeth about Hunt three years ago?



    Not really. His mismanagement of the contract dispute apart, he has not been the worst Health Secretary. I have never been particularly anti-Hunt. I have pretty low expectations of SoS Health generally, and he has not been as useless as many.

    Sorry, not letting that pass.

    You were very angry and fulminating about him during the Junior Doctor’s strike and before. In fact, I’ve never seen such invective from you before or since.

    If I was competent in looking up your posts from the time and quoting them back to you, I would, but they are seared on the memory of all whom saw them here.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 32,169
    HYUFD said:

    > @NickPalmer said:

    > > @Morris_Dancer said:

    > > Quite like this snippet of info about Petroburgians:

    > >



    >

    > If you say so, Dr Young. But I'm not seeing much in the way of coverage at all, apart from a 24-hour flurry about the Labour candidate once liking a dodgy FB post, and Gordon Brown spending a lot of time helping there. How do we think it's going?



    I believe Farage, Boris and Corbyn were all in Peterborough at the weekend.



    It looks like a Brexit Party gain but I would not rule out Labour, especially if they get their vote out

    I’m laying BXP at their current odds c1.26-1.28 as they are too short.

    I’d put them at only 4/6 on.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 22,539
    > @logical_song said:
    > > @RochdalePioneers said:
    > > I'm off to London later this afternoon, and contemplating a quiet stroll down the Mall as there is absolutely nothing at all happening down there...
    > >
    > > All these Trump protesters - forget the individual. This is a State Visit. Which means its the US President coming to meet the Queen to commemorate 75 years of the D-Day Landings. It is entirely right that Trump come here and have the red carpet laid out. As it would be if Clinton had won, or if Trump had already been impeached and Pence was President.
    > >
    > > It's not about the individual man. Its about the office he holds and the shared history in blood between our countries. Protesters should take a breath and remember what D-Day was about - preserving the right to vote and to chose a leader. You don't like Trump? Great! And because we had D-Day America gets to have another election next year.
    >
    > Trump might even commemorate D Day - provided it isn't raining of course.
    > https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-rain-world-war-1-castigated-for-missing-event-paris-armistice/

    There are airspace restrictions all over the place, so I expect he'll be travelling by air and none of the protestors will even get a glimpse of him.
  • isamisam Posts: 28,736
    edited June 3
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,319
    > @rottenborough said:
    > Interesting article Y Doethur, thank you.
    >
    >
    >
    > Yes I think Gove and Hunt will have problems with the reforms they tried to push through in education and health and scrutiny of how successful they were
    >
    > :lol: I very much doubt this leadership race will feature such esoteric discussions. This will be a total Brexit civil war.

    With the membership yes unless they are teachers or doctors and nurses
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 27,186
    HYUFD said:

    > @Scott_P said:

    >





    Boris certainly sees himself as Churchill though Churchill's grandson, Sir Nicholas Soames is backing Rory Stewart
    I don't see how the Tories don't have to split, possibly for some considerable time, before rebuilding.

    Rory is gamely trying unity and compromise, but it is probably impossible now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,319
    > @isam said:
    > > @NickPalmer said:
    >
    > > > @Morris_Dancer said:
    >
    > > > Quite like this snippet of info about Petroburgians:
    >
    > > >
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > If you say so, Dr Young. But I'm not seeing much in the way of coverage at all, apart from a 24-hour flurry about the Labour candidate once liking a dodgy FB post, and Gordon Brown spending a lot of time helping there. How do we think it's going?
    >
    >
    >
    > I believe Farage, Boris and Corbyn were all in Peterborough at the weekend.
    >
    >
    >
    > It looks like a Brexit Party gain but I would not rule out Labour, especially if they get their vote out
    >
    > The real story will be if The Brexit Party win by less than an arbitrary amount in one of their opponents supporters heads

    If the Brexit Party win Labour moderates will apparently launch another coup against Corbyn according to the Sunday Mail
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,698
    > @ydoethur said:
    > Anyway, I have to go. Thank you for all the positive feedback (although perhaps @Roger could have been less damning with his faint praise!) and I hope it leads to an interesting discussion.
    >
    > Have a good morning.

    Sorry not intended. I enjoyed the read. Unfortunately my background is in the tinsel and glitter world of advertising where brevity is everything. I understand that for you as a historian length is no object. The bigger the word count the larger the invoice.

    But when you've spent half your life explaining to copywriters that 50 words in thirty seconds is your limit (and less will make it stronger) it's a difficult habit to break.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    > @Casino_Royale said:
    > > @Casino_Royale said:
    >
    > > > @Foxy said:
    >
    > > > Thanks @ydoethur for the header. I voted Conservative in 2010 for much the same reasons as yourself. Like everyone else I am an expert on education as I once went to school and took exams! Health care suffers the same problem as everyone has once been to the doctor...
    >
    > > >
    >
    > > > I too am unconvinced by Gove. Energy is not necessarily a good thing when interfering with systems that need refreshing and revising rather than revolution. Health has suffered the same toxic ideological approach from a number of Secretaries of State for Health. Indeed one of the reasons that I am fairly pro Hunt, and to a lesser extent Hancock, is that they haven't attempted revolution. Hunt is perhaps best known for his dispute with the Junior Doctors, and that did end in failure, with a new contract that is overly complex and restrictive while singly failing to deliver. Hunt did have the sense to declare victory and move on, quietly dropping plans to do the same to other staff groups including my own.
    >
    > > >
    >
    > > > So far as I can see there are only two good features to Brexit, the first being the destruction of the Tory party and to a lesser extent Corbynism. The second is that it has so consumed political energy that there has been little attempt by any minister at revolution in their departments, which are quietly ticking over under the Civil Servants while the politicians plot and fued over how many angels can dance on the head of an Irish backstop.
    >
    > > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > I seem to recall you were spitting teeth about Hunt three years ago?
    >
    >
    >
    > Not really. His mismanagement of the contract dispute apart, he has not been the worst Health Secretary. I have never been particularly anti-Hunt. I have pretty low expectations of SoS Health generally, and he has not been as useless as many.
    >
    > Sorry, not letting that pass.
    >
    > You were very angry and fulminating about him during the Junior Doctor’s strike and before. In fact, I’ve never seen such invective from you before or since.
    >
    > If I was competent in looking up your posts from the time and quoting them back to you, I would, but they are seared on the memory of all whom saw them here.

    Hunt was shown to be utterly right...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,319
    Brokenshire urges the least popular Tory leadership candidates to pull out

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48493432
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 22,539
    edited June 3
    Trump now about to touch down on British soil. Ugh.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 313
    > @Foxy said:
    > > @RobD said:
    > > > @kamski said:
    > > > "meaning he is either very stupid and was completely fooled, or very dishonest"
    > > >
    > > > I heard this guy during the referendum campaign repeatedly claiming to believe that Turkey was about to join the EU, so I would go for "very dishonest".
    > >
    > > About to? It was in the process of joining :smiley:
    >
    > I believe that Turkey has been in the process of joining for nearly as long as we have been a member, and is no closer to actual membership.

    Indeed, saying Turkey is "in the process of joining" is like saying I'm in the process of becoming World Chess Champion because I sent an email to the organisers of the Candidates' Tournament asking to be included as a wild card, and I've received an automatic reply saying they have received my email.

    There was literally 0% chance of Turkey joining by 2020 as the Leave campaign claimed it would, Gove knew that and chose to lie repeatedly. A pretty nasty lie as he was encouraging the fear of 76 million Turks coming to the UK. Makes me think he is a very nasty piece of work.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 27,186
    IanB2 said:

    Trump now about to touch down on British soil. Ugh.

    I am tempted to completely block him out and ignore him to be honest. I would like to watch some of the actual D-Day commemoration, as it is so important to remind ourselves of those times and the politics that created them. But I am hoping for once Trump displays some basic manners and decorum.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 51,909
    Mr. HYUFD, hmm.

    Mr. B2, Trump's an arse, but the fact there's been more wibbling outrage about his visit than Xi Jinping's is ridiculous.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 27,186
    HYUFD said:

    Brokenshire urges the least popular Tory leadership candidates to pull out



    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48493432

    That'll prompt three more to declare this morning!
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    > @kamski said:
    > > @Foxy said:
    > > > @RobD said:
    > > > > @kamski said:
    > > > > "meaning he is either very stupid and was completely fooled, or very dishonest"
    > > > >
    > > > > I heard this guy during the referendum campaign repeatedly claiming to believe that Turkey was about to join the EU, so I would go for "very dishonest".
    > > >
    > > > About to? It was in the process of joining :smiley:
    > >
    > > I believe that Turkey has been in the process of joining for nearly as long as we have been a member, and is no closer to actual membership.
    >
    > Indeed, saying Turkey is "in the process of joining" is like saying I'm in the process of becoming World Chess Champion because I sent an email to the organisers of the Candidates' Tournament asking to be included as a wild card, and I've received an automatic reply saying they have received my email.
    >
    > There was literally 0% chance of Turkey joining by 2020 as the Leave campaign claimed it would, Gove knew that and chose to lie repeatedly. A pretty nasty lie as he was encouraging the fear of 76 million Turks coming to the UK. Makes me think he is a very nasty piece of work.

    Turkey was on the verge of entering Schengen by the end of June 2016 and to quote:

    “Under an EU-Turkey deal to ease the refugee crisis facing Europe, EU leaders agreed to cut visa requirements for Turkish citizens and accelerate Turkey’s EU membership bid.”

    It was happening have no doubt about it. If it wasn’t for the attempted coup and Erdogan’s response to it Turkey would now be in the Shengen and negotiating the necessary budget and legal requirements to entry.

    But that is the history of Turkey, when someone tries to work with them they either soil themselves of their neighbour and it all goes back to square one.
  • isamisam Posts: 28,736
    Trumps latest tweets about Sadiq Khan are extraordinary! Hard to believe this is the POTUS, no diplomacy whatsoever
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 27,186
    isam said:

    Trumps latest tweets about Sadiq Khan are extraordinary! Hard to believe this is the POTUS, no diplomacy whatsoever

    Ignore him.

    He does not represent the better angels of the US people and their ideals.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 20,634
    > @rcs1000 said:
    > @Charles said:
    > At my daughters school pupils are being given time off to rally against trump
    >
    > ++++++++++++++++
    >
    > Ah hem. I think that you should probably clarify which school that is.
    >
    > Or perhaps clarify that it's not a British state school.

    St Trinians by the sound of it
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    > @rottenborough said:
    > Trumps latest tweets about Sadiq Khan are extraordinary! Hard to believe this is the POTUS, no diplomacy whatsoever
    >
    > Ignore him.
    >
    > He does not represent the better angels of the US people and their ideals.

    Neither does the London mayor.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    notme2 said:

    > @rottenborough said:

    > Trumps latest tweets about Sadiq Khan are extraordinary! Hard to believe this is the POTUS, no diplomacy whatsoever

    >

    > Ignore him.

    >

    > He does not represent the better angels of the US people and their ideals.



    Neither does the London mayor.

    Trump spot on - Khan has been crap. Crime explosion whilst he bans bikini and bacon adverts.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 12,264

    Foxy said:

    > @Casino_Royale said:

    > > @Foxy said:

    > > Thanks @ydoethur for the header. I voted Conservative in 2010 for much the same reasons as yourself. Like everyone else I am an expert on education as I once went to school and took exams! Health care suffers the same problem as everyone has once been to the doctor...

    > >

    > > I too am unconvinced by Gove. Energy is not necessarily

    > >

    > > So far as I can see there are only two good features to Brexit, the first being the destruction of the Tory party and to a lesser extent Corbynism. The second is that it has so consumed political energy that there has been little attempt by any minister at revolution in their departments, which are quietly ticking over under the Civil Servants while the politicians plot and fued over how many angels can dance on the head of an Irish backstop.

    > >

    >

    > I seem to recall you were spitting teeth about Hunt three years ago?



    Not really. His mismanagement of the contract dispute apart, he has not been the worst Health Secretary. I have never been particularly anti-Hunt. I have pretty low expectations of SoS Health generally, and he has not been as useless as many.

    Sorry, not letting that pass.

    You were very angry and fulminating about him during the Junior Doctor’s strike and before. In fact, I’ve never seen such invective from you before or since.

    If I was competent in looking up your posts from the time and quoting them back to you, I would, but they are seared on the memory of all whom saw them here.
    He certainly was incompetent in the issues involved in the strike, and I supported the strike, however he did concede on most of the points in the end. Most importantly, he then was astute enough to back away from similar disputes with other staff groups, not least because the resulting junior doctors rotas are a logistic nightmare that have addressed none of the issues.

    I don't think I really showed invective against anyone apart from the spineless BMA, an organisation that I left some years ago.

    Time to go though!
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 4,201

    IanB2 said:

    Trump now about to touch down on British soil. Ugh.

    I am tempted to completely block him out and ignore him to be honest. I would like to watch some of the actual D-Day commemoration, as it is so important to remind ourselves of those times and the politics that created them. But I am hoping for once Trump displays some basic manners and decorum.
    No chance
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 32,338
    > @isam said:
    > Trumps latest tweets about Sadiq Khan are extraordinary! Hard to believe this is the POTUS, no diplomacy whatsoever

    They will only help Khan, though.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,698
    > @HYUFD said:
    >

    Does this mean he thinks Gove is the danger?
  • felixfelix Posts: 9,250
    > @isam said:
    > Trumps latest tweets about Sadiq Khan are extraordinary! Hard to believe this is the POTUS, no diplomacy whatsoever

    Khan has asked for it. And I am no Trump fan. However, all the faux outrage is much more nauseating than the man himself - where was all this outrage when some real dictators came on state visits. The immaturity of it all plays into Trump's hands.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 7,628
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Mr. HYUFD, hmm.
    >
    > Mr. B2, Trump's an arse, but the fact there's been more wibbling outrage about his visit than Xi Jinping's is ridiculous.

    ...because China is one of our most important allies?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 27,863
    Glad I chose to fly into City Airport today.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    > @SouthamObserver said:
    > > @isam said:
    > > Trumps latest tweets about Sadiq Khan are extraordinary! Hard to believe this is the POTUS, no diplomacy whatsoever
    >
    > They will only help Khan, though.
    Not exactly undeserved when he called the president of the United States abhorrent and erects a blimp mocking him , that’s hardly conducive to good diplomacy.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 25,995
    matt said:

    Charles said:

    Off topic, I live in a small Hampshire market town and some climate extinction event banners have appeared on the railings of the main park over the weekend, clearly painted by primary school children.

    You need the permission of the town council to do that (which has just turned Lib Dem) so that fits.

    I have no idea how long they will be there for but yet another example of the creeping politicisation of everyday life.

    At my daughters school pupils are being given time off to rally against trump
    Would they have been given the same time off for Xi’s visit? It looks likely that the next major flashpoint will be the PRC invading* Taiwan.

    *They would say reunification but that rarely comes under threat of nuclear annahailation and is generally taken to be a two way process.
    No

    My daughter is upset that because Trump is staying at Winfield House her favourite playground was closed this week on security grounds
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 22,539
    Trump making his power move, patting poor Hunt on the back.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,698
    > @rcs1000 said:
    > Worth mentioning that Gove and Trump would probably get along very well. In many ways, they're similar people: intellectually curious, interested in policy, years of public service.

    Not quite oblique enough to know for certain you're being sarcastic. There are some on here knowing you to be a Leaver who lives in the US who MIGHT think you're being serious
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 30,004
    > @HYUFD said:
    > Brokenshire urges the least popular Tory leadership candidates to pull out
    >
    > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48493432

    Except - none of them will admit they are unpopular!
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 1,646

    > @Scott_P said:

    >





    It’s hard to disagree with any of that.
    Indeed. The Tory leadership campaign is, in the words of Sir Pterry, as full of life as a dead dog on an anthill.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 313
    > @notme2 said:
    > > @kamski said:
    > > > @Foxy said:
    > > > > @RobD said:
    > > > > > @kamski said:
    > > > > > "meaning he is either very stupid and was completely fooled, or very dishonest"
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I heard this guy during the referendum campaign repeatedly claiming to believe that Turkey was about to join the EU, so I would go for "very dishonest".
    > > > >
    > > > > About to? It was in the process of joining :smiley:
    > > >
    > > > I believe that Turkey has been in the process of joining for nearly as long as we have been a member, and is no closer to actual membership.
    > >
    > > Indeed, saying Turkey is "in the process of joining" is like saying I'm in the process of becoming World Chess Champion because I sent an email to the organisers of the Candidates' Tournament asking to be included as a wild card, and I've received an automatic reply saying they have received my email.
    > >
    > > There was literally 0% chance of Turkey joining by 2020 as the Leave campaign claimed it would, Gove knew that and chose to lie repeatedly. A pretty nasty lie as he was encouraging the fear of 76 million Turks coming to the UK. Makes me think he is a very nasty piece of work.
    >
    > Turkey was on the verge of entering Schengen by the end of June 2016 and to quote:
    >
    > “Under an EU-Turkey deal to ease the refugee crisis facing Europe, EU leaders agreed to cut visa requirements for Turkish citizens and accelerate Turkey’s EU membership bid.”
    >
    > It was happening have no doubt about it. If it wasn’t for the attempted coup and Erdogan’s response to it Turkey would now be in the Shengen and negotiating the necessary budget and legal requirements to entry.
    >
    > But that is the history of Turkey, when someone tries to work with them they either soil themselves of their neighbour and it all goes back to square one.

    Sorry, but this is a load of rubbish. Every existing EU member has a veto on Turkey joining the EU, several would certainly use it (coup or no coup).

    Turkey is fairly unlikely to get visa-free travel with Schengen countries (which is not the same as joining Schengen) soon, as it would have to first recognise Cyprus, according to the EU. Even if it does get visa-free travel with Schengen, it's still not going to join the EU. And it also wouldn't make it any easier for Turkish citizens to visit the UK as the UK isn't in Schengen.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    > @TGOHF said:
    > > @rottenborough said:
    >
    > > Trumps latest tweets about Sadiq Khan are extraordinary! Hard to believe this is the POTUS, no diplomacy whatsoever
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Ignore him.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > He does not represent the better angels of the US people and their ideals.
    >
    >
    >
    > Neither does the London mayor.
    >
    > Trump spot on - Khan has been crap. Crime explosion whilst he bans bikini and bacon adverts.

    > @TGOHF said:
    > > @rottenborough said:
    >
    > > Trumps latest tweets about Sadiq Khan are extraordinary! Hard to believe this is the POTUS, no diplomacy whatsoever
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Ignore him.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > He does not represent the better angels of the US people and their ideals.
    >
    >
    >
    > Neither does the London mayor.
    >
    > Trump spot on - Khan has been crap. Crime explosion whilst he bans bikini and bacon adverts.

    Has he really banned bacon adverts, can he even do that under UK law?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 20,634
    > @Charles said:
    > Off topic, I live in a small Hampshire market town and some climate extinction event banners have appeared on the railings of the main park over the weekend, clearly painted by primary school children.
    >
    > You need the permission of the town council to do that (which has just turned Lib Dem) so that fits.
    >
    > I have no idea how long they will be there for but yet another example of the creeping politicisation of everyday life.
    >
    > At my daughters school pupils are being given time off to rally against trump
    >
    > Would they have been given the same time off for Xi’s visit? It looks likely that the next major flashpoint will be the PRC invading* Taiwan.
    >
    > *They would say reunification but that rarely comes under threat of nuclear annahailation and is generally taken to be a two way process.
    >
    > No
    >
    > My daughter is upset that because Trump is staying at Winfield House her favourite playground was closed this week on security grounds

    Im still trying to pinpoint when adults in the UK decided to defer decision making to shildren.

    Were fucked if this continues.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,698
    > @Richard_Tyndall said:
    > > @Roger said:
    > > 1800 words to explain why why Michael Gove's a pile of poo? A quick glance at his two minute promotional video might have saved on the word count.
    > >
    > > Nonetheless an interesting read and a well deserved boot in the groin of Richard Tyndall. Not the knock-out blow I was hoping for but I suspect those who know him will realise he's less the articulate guest on the Culture Show and more the neocon pal of John Bolton.
    > >
    > >
    >
    > Dont worry Roger I will go on engaging in the arguments and you can carry on defending and excusing rapists and other assorted sex offenders.

    Quite a retaliation for a mild boot in the groin!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 21,120
    edited June 3

    Im still trying to pinpoint when adults in the UK decided to defer decision making to children.

    Were fucked if this continues.

    Henry VI?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 32,169
    IanB2 said:

    Trump making his power move, patting poor Hunt on the back.

    It really pisses me off when US presidents do that.

    I’d like one of our politicians to do it to a US President.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,126
    'It may come as a shock to some on these boards that intellectuals are intensely disliked in the teaching profession, something that has caused me much trouble over the years'

    That's a sad thing to hear. I've always felt that the people who were most keen on Gove's reforms had little interest in or involvement with education.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 30,004
    > @Alanbrooke said:
    > > @Charles said:
    > > Off topic, I live in a small Hampshire market town and some climate extinction event banners have appeared on the railings of the main park over the weekend, clearly painted by primary school children.
    > >
    > > You need the permission of the town council to do that (which has just turned Lib Dem) so that fits.
    > >
    > > I have no idea how long they will be there for but yet another example of the creeping politicisation of everyday life.
    > >
    > > At my daughters school pupils are being given time off to rally against trump
    > >
    > > Would they have been given the same time off for Xi’s visit? It looks likely that the next major flashpoint will be the PRC invading* Taiwan.
    > >
    > > *They would say reunification but that rarely comes under threat of nuclear annahailation and is generally taken to be a two way process.
    > >
    > > No
    > >
    > > My daughter is upset that because Trump is staying at Winfield House her favourite playground was closed this week on security grounds
    >
    > Im still trying to pinpoint when adults in the UK decided to defer decision making to shildren.
    >
    > Were fucked if this continues.

    They just look to Westminster for their role models. The House of Commons is full of spoilt children....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,319
    > @rottenborough said:
    > > @Scott_P said:
    >
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Boris certainly sees himself as Churchill though Churchill's grandson, Sir Nicholas Soames is backing Rory Stewart
    >
    > I don't see how the Tories don't have to split, possibly for some considerable time, before rebuilding.
    >
    > Rory is gamely trying unity and compromise, but it is probably impossible now.

    The Tories are at least helped by the fact that most Tory members and voters want to leave the EU by the next general election, Deal or No Deal and the fact most Tory voters and most Tory seats voted Leave. The LDs too have the advantage most LD voters and most LD seats voted Remain.

    Labour however has the problem that while most Labour members and most Labour voters voted Remain, most Labour seats voted Leave
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,319
    edited June 3
    > @Casino_Royale said:
    > Trump making his power move, patting poor Hunt on the back.
    >
    > It really pisses me off when US presidents do that.
    >
    > I’d like one of our politicians to do it to a US President.

    The New Zealand Foreign Minister might be less risky.

    Trump can pat whoever he likes bar maybe Chinese President Xi Jinping
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,319
    > @GIN1138 said:
    > > @TGOHF said:
    > > Titter on Twitter
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    > #POTUS :D

    Way to kill 2 Mayors with 1 tweet!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Kjohnw - TFL have banned bacon adverts as it is deemed “unhealthy”.

    Sad nanny state nonsense given the murder rate - very SNP - focus on the deckchairs and ignore the iceberg.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 3,937
    Brilliant Trump tweets as he lands - making friends and influencing people.

    I still don't care. The President of the United States is welcome in the UK, and absolutely should have a formal welcome as he comes to commemorate the 75th anniversary of D-Day. My Grandad and his comrades fought side by side in Normandy with vast numbers of Americans to preserve the right of my and my naturalised expat American friends to elect whatever dickheads we like.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 16,889
    edited June 3
    > @DavidL said:
    > I think that we are on the same page. Gove is a gamble but given where we are and what the choices are it may be a gamble worth taking.

    You've done your stack at Hamilton and you put £8.43 and your bus fare home on the (checks Gove's best odds) 9/2 shot in the last race? That sort of gamble?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,217

    Glad I chose to fly into City Airport today.

    Slightly extravagant coming from sophisticated, pleasant Essex?

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    > @TGOHF said:
    > Kjohnw - TFL have banned bacon adverts as it is deemed “unhealthy”.
    >
    > Sad nanny state nonsense given the murder rate - very SNP - focus on the deckchairs and ignore the iceberg.

    nothing to do with religion then...
  • argyllrsargyllrs Posts: 142
    Great to see an article like this. Very interesting read, good dissection of Gove's performance as a minister.


    Any more such articles from beyond the normal PB sphere coming?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    > @Alanbrooke said:
    > > @Charles said:
    > > Off topic, I live in a small Hampshire market town and some climate extinction event banners have appeared on the railings of the main park over the weekend, clearly painted by primary school children.
    > >
    > > You need the permission of the town council to do that (which has just turned Lib Dem) so that fits.
    > >
    > > I have no idea how long they will be there for but yet another example of the creeping politicisation of everyday life.
    > >
    > > At my daughters school pupils are being given time off to rally against trump
    > >
    > > Would they have been given the same time off for Xi’s visit? It looks likely that the next major flashpoint will be the PRC invading* Taiwan.
    > >
    > > *They would say reunification but that rarely comes under threat of nuclear annahailation and is generally taken to be a two way process.
    > >
    > > No
    > >
    > > My daughter is upset that because Trump is staying at Winfield House her favourite playground was closed this week on security grounds
    >
    > Im still trying to pinpoint when adults in the UK decided to defer decision making to shildren.
    >
    > Were fucked if this continues.

    too late for if
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 16,889
    > @notme2 said:
    > > @rottenborough said:
    > > Trumps latest tweets about Sadiq Khan are extraordinary! Hard to believe this is the POTUS, no diplomacy whatsoever
    > >
    > > Ignore him.
    > >
    > > He does not represent the better angels of the US people and their ideals.
    >
    > Neither does the London mayor.


    You're right, Khan definitely doesn't represent the better angels of the US people and their ideals.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 17,293

    Brilliant Trump tweets as he lands - making friends and influencing people.



    I still don't care. The President of the United States is welcome in the UK, and absolutely should have a formal welcome as he comes to commemorate the 75th anniversary of D-Day. My Grandad and his comrades fought side by side in Normandy with vast numbers of Americans to preserve the right of my and my naturalised expat American friends to elect whatever dickheads we like.

    A rare point of agreement. Trump isn't fit to hold the office but he does and we should respect the office of the president, though maybe not the man.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,698
    > @Alanbrooke said:
    > > @Charles said:
    > > Off topic, I live in a small Hampshire market town and some climate extinction event banners have appeared on the railings of the main park over the weekend, clearly painted by primary school children.
    > >
    > > You need the permission of the town council to do that (which has just turned Lib Dem) so that fits.
    > >
    > > I have no idea how long they will be there for but yet another example of the creeping politicisation of everyday life.
    > >
    > > At my daughters school pupils are being given time off to rally against trump
    > >
    > > Would they have been given the same time off for Xi’s visit? It looks likely that the next major flashpoint will be the PRC invading* Taiwan.
    > >
    > > *They would say reunification but that rarely comes under threat of nuclear annahailation and is generally taken to be a two way process.
    > >
    > > No
    > >
    > > My daughter is upset that because Trump is staying at Winfield House her favourite playground was closed this week on security grounds
    >
    > Im still trying to pinpoint when adults in the UK decided to defer decision making to shildren.
    >
    > Were fucked if this continues.

    No we're not! There are few ten year olds I'wouldn't prefer as PM to any of the mob queuing up for the job at the moment. It's the new social awareness that bothers you. You can't keep up.

    'Johnny what do you want to be when you leave school?'

    'I just want to be a mother'
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 12,455

    Apart from the fact this whole sorry piece is basically a vested interest attack on spmeone who tried to deal with the damage wrought by vested interests (yes, Y Doethur, I’m thinking of you there), it is also logically inconsistent. It attacks Gove for not listening and then says he was guilty of listening too much - and to the very people who in our system of Government we are told are specifically supposed to be there to advise.



    Even a cursory look at the standards of education over the last 30 or more years shows it has been getting disastrously worse since long before Gove appeared and for the teaching profession to blame him for its current ills is self serving and hypocritical.

    I don't understand how Gove's reforms took on vested interests.

    They replaced local beauracrats with Westminster beauracrats and drained hundreds of thousands of pounds from the system by funnelling 'management' fees to the upper echelons of the Academy structure, in some cases fraudulently.

    How did this 'take on' teachers.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,348
    Off-topic:

    Getting away from politics for a minute, here's a quite wonderful story about how one of the missing Lewis chess pieces had been rediscovered:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-48494885
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,348
    > @RochdalePioneers said:
    > Brilliant Trump tweets as he lands - making friends and influencing people.
    >
    > I still don't care. The President of the United States is welcome in the UK, and absolutely should have a formal welcome as he comes to commemorate the 75th anniversary of D-Day. My Grandad and his comrades fought side by side in Normandy with vast numbers of Americans to preserve the right of my and my naturalised expat American friends to elect whatever dickheads we like.

    +1

    Like Farage and Boris, Trump thrives on publicity. But he also represents the only (current) world superpower, and a country that has been a good friend over many decades.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,698
    > @MaxPB said:
    > Brilliant Trump tweets as he lands - making friends and influencing people.
    >
    >
    >
    > I still don't care. The President of the United States is welcome in the UK, and absolutely should have a formal welcome as he comes to commemorate the 75th anniversary of D-Day. My Grandad and his comrades fought side by side in Normandy with vast numbers of Americans to preserve the right of my and my naturalised expat American friends to elect whatever dickheads we like.
    >
    > A rare point of agreement. Trump isn't fit to hold the office but he does and we should respect the office of the president, though maybe not the man.

    It's a person sending the tweets not an OFFICE. If all anyone's interested in is 'The Office' why didn't they ask him to send a throne?

    Maybe one the Queen could sit on.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 32,569
    Morning, my fellow PB Stone Cold Losers! :lol:

    :lol::lol:
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,348
    > @Scott_P said:
    >

    Hmmm. Another indication, if one were needed, that Jacob Rees-Worm is a fool.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 16,889
    > @JosiasJessop said:
    > Off-topic:
    >
    > Getting away from politics for a minute, here's a quite wonderful story about how one of the missing Lewis chess pieces had been rediscovered:
    >
    > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-48494885


    Interesting.
    I'd quibble slightly about the family's grandfather (an antique dealer apparently) having no idea what it was; £5 in 1964 was c.£100 in today's money, I'd guess he'd have thought the battered old chess piece might have had some value.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,126
    > @RochdalePioneers said:
    > I'm off to London later this afternoon, and contemplating a quiet stroll down the Mall as there is absolutely nothing at all happening down there...
    >
    > All these Trump protesters - forget the individual. This is a State Visit. Which means its the US President coming to meet the Queen to commemorate 75 years of the D-Day Landings. It is entirely right that Trump come here and have the red carpet laid out. As it would be if Clinton had won, or if Trump had already been impeached and Pence was President.
    >
    > It's not about the individual man. Its about the office he holds and the shared history in blood between our countries. Protesters should take a breath and remember what D-Day was about - preserving the right to vote and to chose a leader. You don't like Trump? Great! And because we had D-Day America gets to have another election next year.

    > @RochdalePioneers said:
    > I'm off to London later this afternoon, and contemplating a quiet stroll down the Mall as there is absolutely nothing at all happening down there...
    >
    > All these Trump protesters - forget the individual. This is a State Visit. Which means its the US President coming to meet the Queen to commemorate 75 years of the D-Day Landings. It is entirely right that Trump come here and have the red carpet laid out. As it would be if Clinton had won, or if Trump had already been impeached and Pence was President.
    >
    > It's not about the individual man. Its about the office he holds and the shared history in blood between our countries. Protesters should take a breath and remember what D-Day was about - preserving the right to vote and to chose a leader. You don't like Trump? Great! And because we had D-Day America gets to have another election next year.

    If only he were here just for the D Day commemorations. The absurd idea of offering him a state visit - as soon as he became President! - was a ludicrous folly. It did of course start with Bush and then Obama. We now look like little more than an obsequious courtier.

    The good thing is it will be fun to see Trump's biggest supporters squirm as he sizes up health and agriculture for his trade deal.
This discussion has been closed.