Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Warren moves above Sanders in the fight for the WH2020 Democra

24

Comments

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Scott_P said:
    With the caveat that Conservative MP's can't be trusted in a secret ballot I wonder if the Hodges tweet is accurate that we might possibly have Boris and Hunt hoovering up around two hundred votes. The rest on fewer than 40 and some barely above the 17 threshold and retire and we end up with the final two tomorrow?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 25,685
    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 11,875

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    I'd say those three Labour MPs who voted for the deal are very honourable.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 31,460
    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:
    With the caveat that Conservative MP's can't be trusted in a secret ballot I wonder if the Hodges tweet is accurate that we might possibly have Boris and Hunt hoovering up around two hundred votes. The rest on fewer than 40 and some barely above the 17 threshold and retire and we end up with the final two tomorrow?
    Everyone drops out except Johnson, Hunt and Leadsom. Leadsom scoops up the Stop Boris and Stop Hunt vote and sneaks into the run off. ;)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 27,699

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    Theresa May’s Brexit was not very soft. It was a managed hard Brexit.

    Britain is now into chaotic hard Brexit territory.
    Is that an improvement? Did Grieve and co, the Lib Dems, Labour etc do a smart move rejecting May's deal and getting Boris?
    I think you’re prejudging events rather. The odds on Dominic Grieve getting an outcome he wants from here look much higher than for your average death cult Leaver.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 25,685
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gove and Raab pull out and Boris will get a lot of transfers from them.
    Hunt and Javid duking it out for the last spot then. Might be worth backing Javid?
    Boris could Hoover up enough to get a majority of MPs leaving Hunt and Javid with a quarter each. Boris would already be favourite if he got through to the members vote but favourite when he beats his rival 2:1? Even if the other candidates MPs would have transferred to the runner up it wouldn't show that way.

    Boris is very fortunate if his leave rivals fall first.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 11,966
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    MikeL said:

    Boris shortening, Hunt drifting.

    Hunt 8.8 (Next leader) only just ahead of Leadsom 9.2.

    Jeremy Hunt’s odds are right. Andrea Leadsom’s are ridiculous .
    The British Jeb Bush.
    Hunt yes, Boris the British Trump, Javid the British Rubio, Raab the British Ted Cruz, Rory Stewart the British John Kasich, Gove the British Rand Paul?
    I'm more talking about Leadsom's inexplicable price in a leadership election.

    Bush was @10.0 three Primaries in with zero chance of winning.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 2,906
    JackW said:

    Moral Maze on R4 - Michael Gove and drugs - 45 minutes PPB for the other candidates.

    That's not how it turned out, at least not how I heard it.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 4,920
    edited June 12

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:

    Makes me feel sad that 34% say no to that.
    Perhaps they have the intelligence to realise that tax-cuts come at a price.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 25,685
    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    I'd say those three Labour MPs who voted for the deal are very honourable.
    Indeed.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 1,712
    Chris said:

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:

    Makes me feel sad that 34% say no to that.
    Perhaps they have the intelligence to realise that tax-cuts come at a price.
    As do tax increases.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 12,580
    edited June 12
    HYUFD said:

    Together the Sanders and Warren combined come to 28% with Yougov, more than Biden's 27% so whichever of them beats the other in Iowa or New Hampshire could well be Democratic nominee as they are both fishing in the same poll of left liberal voters

    Sanders and Warren are both left-liberal but that's not the only axis in this race. There's some overlap but it's way, way short of 100%. Dispositionally they're quite different, as you'll see if you follow some of their supporters on the twitters.

    If you can't feel this intuitively obvious fact, there's second-choice polling. It's too early for such polling to be meaningful, but you won't mind...

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-there-really-lanes-in-the-2020-democratic-primary/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 31,460
    One detail of the ComRes poll worth noting is that every single named candidate causes the Lib Dem voted to go up from 17% to:

    With Johnson: 20%
    With Hunt: 19%
    With Javid: 20%
    With Gove: 21%
    With Raab: 21%
    With Stewart: 20%
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 21,554
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    MikeL said:

    Boris shortening, Hunt drifting.

    Hunt 8.8 (Next leader) only just ahead of Leadsom 9.2.

    Jeremy Hunt’s odds are right. Andrea Leadsom’s are ridiculous .
    The British Jeb Bush.
    Hunt yes, Boris the British Trump, Javid the British Rubio, Raab the British Ted Cruz, Rory Stewart the British John Kasich, Gove the British Rand Paul?
    I'm more talking about Leadsom's inexplicable price in a leadership election.

    Bush was @10.0 three Primaries in with zero chance of winning.
    She’ll surprise tomorrow and be kept in the contest longer than seems likely now, I suspect. The odds do seem short, but there is clearly a chance she might win by accident if Boris implodes at a later stage.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 3,587

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    The DUP to my mind have been the most consistent. They're a bunch of loons normally, but on Brexit they've been as straight-batted as anyone.

    ERG have not acted wisely or honorably.

    SNP have been disingenuous from start to finish. I will say thought that their behavior is understandably so in a Scottish context, but horrid in a UK-wide view.

    The LDs have simply been beyond the pale. A complete disregard that the public's vote counted for anything.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 64,210

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    Theresa May’s Brexit was not very soft. It was a managed hard Brexit.

    Britain is now into chaotic hard Brexit territory.
    According to Yougov 52% of Leavers think staying in the Single Market and Customs Union would be a bad outcome from Brexit and only 13% a good outcome, 28% of Remainers though think it would be a good outcome and only 20% a bad outcome

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/11/brits-oppose-proroguing-parliament-force-through-n
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 64,210
    brendan16 said:

    HYUFD said:

    chloe said:

    It does seem like Boris is going to win this. I voted for Boris twice as Mayor of London. I would not vote for him in a general election on a no deal platform.

    Boris only won London with the votes of people who voted Labour or LD in 2010 and 2015 as Labour won a majority of seats and votes in London at both those elections despite losing nationally.

    He can thus still win a general election even if he loses the votes of some who supported his Mayoral bid in 2008 and 2012 to Labour or the LDs
    Mayoral elections have much lower turnouts and in fact it was older voters in places like Havering, Bromley, Bexley, Hillingdon etc that turned out for Boris big time.

    That is how he won. Boris motivated them in a way Steven Norris could not, people were bored with Ken and then in 2012 he offered the over 60s travel pass which is still in place today to get their votes! Many city bankers, judges and other wealthy Londoners still in work over 60 still enjoy this freebie today.

    Its hard to imagine now but back in 2008 or 2012 the Tories winning a London wide election was not that shocking!
    Boris also won Croydon, Merton, Ealing, Wandsworth, even Redbridge and Enfield, not just Tory heartlands
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,368
    Of the 73 Tory MPs still to declare, it's possible 25 could vote for Rory Stewart in my opinion. That would take him from 8 to 33.
  • eekeek Posts: 6,021
    edited June 12
    HYUFD said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    Theresa May’s Brexit was not very soft. It was a managed hard Brexit.

    Britain is now into chaotic hard Brexit territory.
    According to Yougov 52% of Leavers think staying in the Single Market and Customs Union would be a bad outcome from Brexit and only 13% a good outcome, 28% of Remainers though think it would be a good outcome and only 20% a bad outcome

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/11/brits-oppose-proroguing-parliament-force-through-n
    52% really don’t understand economics then - mind you as most Leavers believe trading with zero tariffs on imports (while countries add as much as they can to price out our exports) is a good idea that’s hardly surprising.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 21,554
    HYUFD said:

    brendan16 said:

    HYUFD said:

    chloe said:

    It does seem like Boris is going to win this. I voted for Boris twice as Mayor of London. I would not vote for him in a general election on a no deal platform.

    Boris only won London with the votes of people who voted Labour or LD in 2010 and 2015 as Labour won a majority of seats and votes in London at both those elections despite losing nationally.

    He can thus still win a general election even if he loses the votes of some who supported his Mayoral bid in 2008 and 2012 to Labour or the LDs
    Mayoral elections have much lower turnouts and in fact it was older voters in places like Havering, Bromley, Bexley, Hillingdon etc that turned out for Boris big time.

    That is how he won. Boris motivated them in a way Steven Norris could not, people were bored with Ken and then in 2012 he offered the over 60s travel pass which is still in place today to get their votes! Many city bankers, judges and other wealthy Londoners still in work over 60 still enjoy this freebie today.

    Its hard to imagine now but back in 2008 or 2012 the Tories winning a London wide election was not that shocking!
    Boris also won Croydon, Merton, Ealing, Wandsworth, even Redbridge and Enfield, not just Tory heartlands
    There is the minor detail that he is now marmite in a way that he wasn’t back then.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:
    With the caveat that Conservative MP's can't be trusted in a secret ballot I wonder if the Hodges tweet is accurate that we might possibly have Boris and Hunt hoovering up around two hundred votes. The rest on fewer than 40 and some barely above the 17 threshold and retire and we end up with the final two tomorrow?
    Everyone drops out except Johnson, Hunt and Leadsom. Leadsom scoops up the Stop Boris and Stop Hunt vote and sneaks into the run off. ;)
    I think there's as much hope of Leadsom in the final two as @Peter_the_Punter burning his feather boa collection in a paean of adulation to Nigel Farage.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 21,554

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gove and Raab pull out and Boris will get a lot of transfers from them.
    Hunt and Javid duking it out for the last spot then. Might be worth backing Javid?
    Boris could Hoover up enough to get a majority of MPs leaving Hunt and Javid with a quarter each. Boris would already be favourite if he got through to the members vote but favourite when he beats his rival 2:1? Even if the other candidates MPs would have transferred to the runner up it wouldn't show that way.

    Boris is very fortunate if his leave rivals fall first.

    So will we be, if that’s when the dirt on Boris hits the fan
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 31,067
    AndyJS said:

    Of the 73 Tory MPs still to declare, it's possible 25 could vote for Rory Stewart in my opinion. That would take him from 8 to 33.

    Stewart is one person I expect to surprise on the upside.

    I'm hoping his odds then shorten so I can lay him.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 8,923
    brendan16 said:

    HYUFD said:

    chloe said:

    It does seem like Boris is going to win this. I voted for Boris twice as Mayor of London. I would not vote for him in a general election on a no deal platform.

    Boris only won London with the votes of people who voted Labour or LD in 2010 and 2015 as Labour won a majority of seats and votes in London at both those elections despite losing nationally.

    He can thus still win a general election even if he loses the votes of some who supported his Mayoral bid in 2008 and 2012 to Labour or the LDs
    Mayoral elections have much lower turnouts and in fact it was older voters in places like Havering, Bromley, Bexley, Hillingdon etc that turned out for Boris big time.

    That is how he won. Boris motivated them in a way Steven Norris could not, people were bored with Ken and then in 2012 he offered the over 60s travel pass which is still in place today to get their votes! Many city bankers, judges and other wealthy Londoners still in work over 60 still enjoy this freebie today.

    Its hard to imagine now but back in 2008 or 2012 the Tories winning a London wide election was not that shocking!
    Steven Norris - and other Tory candidates - would have had a good prospect of winning in 2008 in the context of an unpopular Labour Government led by Brown.
  • eekeek Posts: 6,021
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Someone said earlier that Mark Harper is favourite to come last tomorrow. I think it's probably more likely to be Andrea Leadsom or Esther McVey.

    Be a relief to get McVey out straight away. We don't want a embryonic WitchFinder General anywhere near the top.
    I'd rank Raab below her in terms of lack of suitability for office.
    I have a funny feeling Javid or Raab could end up Boris' opponent in the final two, not Gove or Hunt but we will see what tomorrow brings.

    Remember almost 80 Tory MPs yet to declare and The Saj had a very good launch introduced by Ruth Davidson, probably the best received so far while Raab is positioning himself as the true hard Brexit candidate to the ERG
    Supposedly the ERG had hustings last week and Boris won. Raab hasn’t had a single declaration since so that kind of makes sense.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,103
    Chris said:

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:

    Makes me feel sad that 34% say no to that.
    Perhaps they have the intelligence to realise that tax-cuts come at a price.
    Frankly, most of the public appear to think that choices only have consequences for other people. Be it tax cuts, renationalisations, property taxes, expropriation of private property or Brexit.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 31,067
    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    MikeL said:

    Boris shortening, Hunt drifting.

    Hunt 8.8 (Next leader) only just ahead of Leadsom 9.2.

    Jeremy Hunt’s odds are right. Andrea Leadsom’s are ridiculous .
    The British Jeb Bush.
    Hunt yes, Boris the British Trump, Javid the British Rubio, Raab the British Ted Cruz, Rory Stewart the British John Kasich, Gove the British Rand Paul?
    I'm more talking about Leadsom's inexplicable price in a leadership election.

    Bush was @10.0 three Primaries in with zero chance of winning.
    She’ll surprise tomorrow and be kept in the contest longer than seems likely now, I suspect. The odds do seem short, but there is clearly a chance she might win by accident if Boris implodes at a later stage.
    Then she should be 25/1 or 30/1.

    Not 10/1.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    geoffw said:

    JackW said:

    Moral Maze on R4 - Michael Gove and drugs - 45 minutes PPB for the other candidates.

    That's not how it turned out, at least not how I heard it.
    If Gove and drugs is the story then it's a plus for the others. How close will Gove get to his declared backers?
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 1,883
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    Theresa May’s Brexit was not very soft. It was a managed hard Brexit.

    Britain is now into chaotic hard Brexit territory.
    According to Yougov 52% of Leavers think staying in the Single Market and Customs Union would be a bad outcome from Brexit and only 13% a good outcome, 28% of Remainers though think it would be a good outcome and only 20% a bad outcome

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/11/brits-oppose-proroguing-parliament-force-through-n
    52% really don’t understand economics then - mind you as most Leavers believe trading with zero tariffs on imports (while countries add as much as they can to price out our exports) is a good idea that’s hardly surprising.
    Well if the pro-EU side had explained all the benefits perhaps leavers would be better educated.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    edited June 12

    HYUFD said:

    Together the Sanders and Warren combined come to 28% with Yougov, more than Biden's 27% so whichever of them beats the other in Iowa or New Hampshire could well be Democratic nominee as they are both fishing in the same poll of left liberal voters

    Sanders and Warren are both left-liberal but that's not the only axis in this race. There's some overlap but it's way, way short of 100%. Dispositionally they're quite different, as you'll see if you follow some of their supporters on the twitters.

    If you can't feel this intuitively obvious fact, there's second-choice polling. It's too early for such polling to be meaningful, but you won't mind...

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-there-really-lanes-in-the-2020-democratic-primary/
    Good news for Sanders is he does better than Biden as a second choice with most candidates. Bad news for Sanders is his best transfer candidate seems to be 3rd behind him and Biden in the polls in Warren.

    Gives me hope it could be a closer contest as it gets closer to the voting. Sanders or Warren might need to eat the others vote to get it though...

    Edit: I was interested to see this, I guess things could change a bit more when people start paying more attention.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 31,067

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    Theresa May’s Brexit was not very soft. It was a managed hard Brexit.

    Britain is now into chaotic hard Brexit territory.
    Which is why I'm flabbergasted as to why so many Leavers didn't dig it.

    I couldn't believe my luck.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 3,675

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    Bollocks
  • eekeek Posts: 6,021

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    Theresa May’s Brexit was not very soft. It was a managed hard Brexit.

    Britain is now into chaotic hard Brexit territory.
    According to Yougov 52% of Leavers think staying in the Single Market and Customs Union would be a bad outcome from Brexit and only 13% a good outcome, 28% of Remainers though think it would be a good outcome and only 20% a bad outcome

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/11/brits-oppose-proroguing-parliament-force-through-n
    52% really don’t understand economics then - mind you as most Leavers believe trading with zero tariffs on imports (while countries add as much as they can to price out our exports) is a good idea that’s hardly surprising.
    Well if the pro-EU side had explained all the benefits perhaps leavers would be better educated.
    I’m not pro-EU I just happen to know a (little) bit about game theory.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 13,359

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:

    Makes me feel sad that 34% say no to that.
    No they don't,. And why would it make you feel sad?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 31,067
    Alistair said:

    MikeL said:

    Boris shortening, Hunt drifting.

    Hunt 8.8 (Next leader) only just ahead of Leadsom 9.2.

    Jeremy Hunt’s odds are right. Andrea Leadsom’s are ridiculous .
    The British Jeb Bush.
    Has she tweeted a picture of her sidearm yet, embossed with Lead?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 21,554

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    MikeL said:

    Boris shortening, Hunt drifting.

    Hunt 8.8 (Next leader) only just ahead of Leadsom 9.2.

    Jeremy Hunt’s odds are right. Andrea Leadsom’s are ridiculous .
    The British Jeb Bush.
    Hunt yes, Boris the British Trump, Javid the British Rubio, Raab the British Ted Cruz, Rory Stewart the British John Kasich, Gove the British Rand Paul?
    I'm more talking about Leadsom's inexplicable price in a leadership election.

    Bush was @10.0 three Primaries in with zero chance of winning.
    She’ll surprise tomorrow and be kept in the contest longer than seems likely now, I suspect. The odds do seem short, but there is clearly a chance she might win by accident if Boris implodes at a later stage.
    Then she should be 25/1 or 30/1.

    Not 10/1.
    Look at it as 1/10 a man will win and 10/1 a woman.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,368
    What happens if the bottom 3 each get 17 votes tomorrow? Do they all get eliminated, or does the first round get re-run?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 3,675

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    I'd say those three Labour MPs who voted for the deal are very honourable.
    Indeed.
    What about the MPs who represented their constituents who voted remain and have stuck with them
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 31,067
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Someone said earlier that Mark Harper is favourite to come last tomorrow. I think it's probably more likely to be Andrea Leadsom or Esther McVey.

    Be a relief to get McVey out straight away. We don't want a embryonic WitchFinder General anywhere near the top.
    I'd rank Raab below her in terms of lack of suitability for office.
    I have a funny feeling Javid or Raab could end up Boris' opponent in the final two, not Gove or Hunt but we will see what tomorrow brings.

    Remember almost 80 Tory MPs yet to declare and The Saj had a very good launch introduced by Ruth Davidson, probably the best received so far while Raab is positioning himself as the true hard Brexit candidate to the ERG
    I'm keeping pretty clean on the Saj.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    nichomar said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    Bollocks
    That's totally unacceptable.

    The single word is very passe. We've had Bollocks To BREXIT and Bollocks To Bercow

    So what is it .... Bollocks To ...... ?!?!?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,368
    edited June 12
    The betting odds are getting even stranger: Jeremy Hunt is about to drop below Andrea Leadsom.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.125574963
  • eekeek Posts: 6,021

    One detail of the ComRes poll worth noting is that every single named candidate causes the Lib Dem voted to go up from 17% to:

    With Johnson: 20%
    With Hunt: 19%
    With Javid: 20%
    With Gove: 21%
    With Raab: 21%
    With Stewart: 20%

    Hardly surprising - it represents my view point - economically conservative but socially liberal. To an extent I’m surprised how low the switch is but that probably shows how much has already been lost.

    So it does look like the Torres will need to swing further right to collect the lost UKIP / Brexit votes. But those social liberal votes are probably lost for a long time.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 31,067
    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Cox's support confirms that Boris isn't going for no deal, whatever he might say.
    Boris is all things to all men.
    I can't but admit to being somewhat intrigued by what a Boris premiership will be like...
    Cynical.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 32,014
    AndyJS said:

    What happens if the bottom 3 each get 17 votes tomorrow? Do they all get eliminated, or does the first round get re-run?

    Re-run I think. It happened in 2001 when Ancram and Davis both trailed on 21 votes. In the "second" round, Davis got 18, and Ancram got 17. Ancram was officially eliminated, and Davis withdrew.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 25,685
    edited June 12
    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    I'd say those three Labour MPs who voted for the deal are very honourable.
    Indeed.
    What about the MPs who represented their constituents who voted remain and have stuck with them
    If they voted against the having the referendum and against invoking article 50 then they've been consistent. If they voted to have the referendum but want to reject its results, or voted to invoke A50 then not so much.

    Hence why I said SNP. I don't agree with them but I respect them.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 31,460

    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    I'd say those three Labour MPs who voted for the deal are very honourable.
    Indeed.
    What about the MPs who represented their constituents who voted remain and have stuck with them
    If they voted against the having the referendum and against invoking article 50 then they've been consistent. If they voted to have the referendum but want to reject its results, or voted to invoke A50 then not so much.
    It's a perfectly consistent and honourable position to think that the referendum imposed an obligation to invoke Article 50 and negotiate a withdrawal agreement, but then to put that agreement back to the people to confirm that they want to go ahead.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,368

    AndyJS said:

    What happens if the bottom 3 each get 17 votes tomorrow? Do they all get eliminated, or does the first round get re-run?

    Re-run I think. It happened in 2001 when Ancram and Davis both trailed on 21 votes. In the "second" round, Davis got 18, and Ancram got 17. Ancram was officially eliminated, and Davis withdrew.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election
    +1
  • eekeek Posts: 6,021
    On one level off topic. On another level probably the most important thing you will read all year

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 31,067
    AndyJS said:

    I'd like to know whether Andrea Leadsom's odds are due to stupid punters or someone trying to artificially inflate her standing.

    Probably both.

    What % of the market do informed punters on pb.com represent?

    It's a £3.9m market. I've got 0.06% of the market. If we assume there are 200 very serious punters lurking or posting on here then we'd still only be at 12% of it.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 9,520
    edited June 12
    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Cox's support confirms that Boris isn't going for no deal, whatever he might say.
    Boris is all things to all men.
    I can't but admit to being somewhat intrigued by what a Boris premiership will be like...
    Me too. I thought a few days ago Johnson had a Machiavellian plan to aggravate the EU into forcing a No Deal in October. Actually this makes a degree of sense. He can bypass the House of Commons because it will be an EU No Deal and he can blame the EU for being unreasonable. I now suspect from what he is saying today that he really doesn't have a clue what he is doing.

    It may come to the and thing in the end, as he runs out of options.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 740

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:

    Mo

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:



    Moronic. Business friendly? Under 'fuck business' Boris? Outside of the EU on WTO rules!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,368
    eek said:

    On one level off topic. On another level probably the most important thing you will read all year

    Don't understand this. What was so special about Google Reader?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 8,923

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.
  • eekeek Posts: 6,021
    Fenman said:

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:

    Mo

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:

    Nope outside of the EU on WTO for exports but so stupid you can import anything you want tariff free.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 2,684

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    Theresa May’s Brexit was not very soft. It was a managed hard Brexit.

    Britain is now into chaotic hard Brexit territory.
    Is that an improvement? Did Grieve and co, the Lib Dems, Labour etc do a smart move rejecting May's deal and getting Boris?
    I think you’re prejudging events rather. The odds on Dominic Grieve getting an outcome he wants from here look much higher than for your average death cult Leaver.
    Isn't Grieve in grave danger of being deselected?

    (I confess I cannot keep up with this summer torrent of news)
  • eekeek Posts: 6,021
    edited June 12
    AndyJS said:

    eek said:

    On one level off topic. On another level probably the most important thing you will read all year

    Don't understand this. What was so special about Google Reader?
    Everyone moved to the echo chambers of twitter and Facebook where eyes could be bought which has resulted in a shift towards extremes.

    There is slightly more to it than that but the move towards Facebook and Twitter has reslultec in people reinforcing their personal biases
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 3,675
    JackW said:

    nichomar said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    Bollocks
    That's totally unacceptable.

    The single word is very passe. We've had Bollocks To BREXIT and Bollocks To Bercow

    So what is it .... Bollocks To ...... ?!?!?
    Ok I’ll give you that, I believe that to say that the snp and the erg are the only people to have acted honorably is pushing it somewhat. The ERG are the reason we haven’t left the SNP want to leverage the situation to their advantage so it was easier to say the b word but I humbly apologize
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 5,488
    eek said:

    On one level off topic. On another level probably the most important thing you will read all year

    I can't say I agree with this. What normal people (not nerds) ever used Google Reader?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,103
    AndyJS said:

    eek said:

    On one level off topic. On another level probably the most important thing you will read all year

    Don't understand this. What was so special about Google Reader?
    One unsubstantiated opinion is unlikely to be the most important thing read all year. If a poster genuinely believes that perhaps they could add some colour or analysis. Hyperbole overload.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 28,126
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.
    Just like Corbyn then
  • eekeek Posts: 6,021
    nichomar said:

    JackW said:

    nichomar said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    Bollocks
    That's totally unacceptable.

    The single word is very passe. We've had Bollocks To BREXIT and Bollocks To Bercow

    So what is it .... Bollocks To ...... ?!?!?
    Ok I’ll give you that, I believe that to say that the snp and the erg are the only people to have acted honorably is pushing it somewhat. The ERG are the reason we haven’t left the SNP want to leverage the situation to their advantage so it was easier to say the b word but I humbly apologize
    The ERG were elected to ensure the UK left the EU - furthermore they were elected as members of the governing party. They blocked the deal that allowed us to do so.

    How is that honourable?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 32,014
    eek said:

    AndyJS said:

    eek said:

    On one level off topic. On another level probably the most important thing you will read all year

    Don't understand this. What was so special about Google Reader?
    Everyone moved to the echo chambers of twitter and Facebook where eyes could be bought which has resulted in a shift towards extremes.

    There is slightly more to it than that but the move towards Facebook and Twitter has reslultec in people reinforcing their personal biases
    I don't ever remember using Google Reader!
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    nichomar said:

    JackW said:

    nichomar said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    Bollocks
    That's totally unacceptable.

    The single word is very passe. We've had Bollocks To BREXIT and Bollocks To Bercow

    So what is it .... Bollocks To ...... ?!?!?
    Ok I’ll give you that, I believe that to say that the snp and the erg are the only people to have acted honorably is pushing it somewhat. The ERG are the reason we haven’t left the SNP want to leverage the situation to their advantage so it was easier to say the b word but I humbly apologize
    You get one week in ConHome suspended for a period not to exceed actual BREXIT.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 39,891
    JackW said:

    nichomar said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    Bollocks
    That's totally unacceptable.

    The single word is very passe. We've had Bollocks To BREXIT and Bollocks To Bercow

    So what is it .... Bollocks To ...... ?!?!?
    Bollocks to Bollocks :)
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 2,906
    JackW said:

    geoffw said:

    JackW said:

    Moral Maze on R4 - Michael Gove and drugs - 45 minutes PPB for the other candidates.

    That's not how it turned out, at least not how I heard it.
    If Gove and drugs is the story then it's a plus for the others. How close will Gove get to his declared backers?
    Much of it was about hypocrisy. Gove's of course, but others' too. Yes it did perhaps reinforce the damage already done to Gove's reputation. He may struggle to get into the second stage, but if he does and faces Johnson then it's dishonours even.
  • eekeek Posts: 6,021

    eek said:

    AndyJS said:

    eek said:

    On one level off topic. On another level probably the most important thing you will read all year

    Don't understand this. What was so special about Google Reader?
    Everyone moved to the echo chambers of twitter and Facebook where eyes could be bought which has resulted in a shift towards extremes.

    There is slightly more to it than that but the move towards Facebook and Twitter has reslultec in people reinforcing their personal biases
    I don't ever remember using Google Reader!
    You didn’t but RSS was the backbone of the general news feeds that yahoo and other pages used. You would have used it without realising to create a page with links to 40 different websites all with news on topics that interested you.

    As I stated below the loss of RSS probably contributed to the growth of twitter and Facebook. The problem with social media is that it creates echo chambers that reinforce viewpoints and worse advertising may push those things towards extremes.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.

    Precisely.
    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    The DUP to my mind have been the most consistent. They're a bunch of loons normally, but on Brexit they've been as straight-batted as anyone.
    ERG have not acted wisely or honorably.
    NP have been disingenuous from start to finish. I will say thought that their behavior is understandably so in a Scottish context, but horrid in a UK-wide view.
    The LDs have simply been beyond the pale. A complete disregard that the public's vote counted for anything.
    If it was fixed by the Russians, the Lib Dems were quite right to ignore it.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 2,684
    edited June 12
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.
    Ultra-Remainers like you are making a major tactical error; maybe a strategic error.

    They cannot hide their histrionic loathing of Boris (which largely stems from the simple fact he delivered Brexit), and when Remainers criticise him they go totally over the top. I mean "a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics"? It comes across as nuts. Boris may be a womanising wanker, but he isn't Mussolini.

    See Matthew Parris, passim. On every other issue Parris is measured and clever, when it comes to Boris he talks darkly and weirdly of conspiracies, and rants and foams about Boris's moral failings.

    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,368
    If this isn't a betting opportunity, I don't know what is:

    Johnson 1.54 / 1.55
    Hunt 8.8 / 9
    Leadsom 9 / 9.2
    Gove 21 / 25
    Stewart 32 / 36

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.125574963
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 2,906
    eek said:

    Fenman said:

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:

    Mo

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:

    Nope outside of the EU on WTO for exports but so stupid you can import anything you want tariff free.
    That would be good for consumers. Are you championing our high cost producers?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 3,675

    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    I'd say those three Labour MPs who voted for the deal are very honourable.
    Indeed.
    What about the MPs who represented their constituents who voted remain and have stuck with them
    If they voted against the having the referendum and against invoking article 50 then they've been consistent. If they voted to have the referendum but want to reject its results, or voted to invoke A50 then not so much.
    It's a perfectly consistent and honourable position to think that the referendum imposed an obligation to invoke Article 50 and negotiate a withdrawal agreement, but then to put that agreement back to the people to confirm that they want to go ahead.
    +1
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 32,014
    PClipp said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.

    Precisely.
    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    The DUP to my mind have been the most consistent. They're a bunch of loons normally, but on Brexit they've been as straight-batted as anyone.
    ERG have not acted wisely or honorably.
    NP have been disingenuous from start to finish. I will say thought that their behavior is understandably so in a Scottish context, but horrid in a UK-wide view.
    The LDs have simply been beyond the pale. A complete disregard that the public's vote counted for anything.
    If it was fixed by the Russians, the Lib Dems were quite right to ignore it.
    Yes, of course!

    I remember being brainwashed by Moscow's evil Mind-Control Ray even as I voted in the polling booth!

    :lol:
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    RobD said:

    JackW said:

    nichomar said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    Bollocks
    That's totally unacceptable.

    The single word is very passe. We've had Bollocks To BREXIT and Bollocks To Bercow

    So what is it .... Bollocks To ...... ?!?!?
    Bollocks to Bollocks :)
    Too much information about your youthful dalliances in the gay quarter of Soho .... :astonished:
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 8,923
    Byronic said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.
    Ulltra-Remainers like you are making a major tactical error. maybe a strategic error.

    They cannot hide their histrionic loathing of Boris (which largely stems from the simple fact he delivered Brexit), and when Remainers criticise him they go totally over the top. I mean "a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics"? It comes across as nuts. Boris may be a womanising wanker, but he isn't Mussolini.

    See Matthew Parris, passim. On every other issue Parris is measured and clever, when it comes to Boris he talks darkly and weirdly of conspiracies, and rants and foams about Boris's moral failings.

    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
    I voted Leave.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 31,067
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    What happens if the bottom 3 each get 17 votes tomorrow? Do they all get eliminated, or does the first round get re-run?

    Re-run I think. It happened in 2001 when Ancram and Davis both trailed on 21 votes. In the "second" round, Davis got 18, and Ancram got 17. Ancram was officially eliminated, and Davis withdrew.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election
    +1
    They will all be pressured to withdraw.

    The Conservatives aren't in opposition and there's no time to fanny about and navel gaze on mathematical niceties.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 10,679
    eek said:

    eek said:

    AndyJS said:

    eek said:

    On one level off topic. On another level probably the most important thing you will read all year

    Don't understand this. What was so special about Google Reader?
    Everyone moved to the echo chambers of twitter and Facebook where eyes could be bought which has resulted in a shift towards extremes.

    There is slightly more to it than that but the move towards Facebook and Twitter has reslultec in people reinforcing their personal biases
    I don't ever remember using Google Reader!
    You didn’t but RSS was the backbone of the general news feeds that yahoo and other pages used. You would have used it without realising to create a page with links to 40 different websites all with news on topics that interested you.

    As I stated below the loss of RSS probably contributed to the growth of twitter and Facebook. The problem with social media is that it creates echo chambers that reinforce viewpoints and worse advertising may push those things towards extremes.
    I see now that eek is short for geek.

    I for one have never created a page with links to 40 different websites all with news on topics that interested me. I just go to the free ones I trust and like: BBC and the Guardian.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 31,067

    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    I'd say those three Labour MPs who voted for the deal are very honourable.
    Indeed.
    What about the MPs who represented their constituents who voted remain and have stuck with them
    If they voted against the having the referendum and against invoking article 50 then they've been consistent. If they voted to have the referendum but want to reject its results, or voted to invoke A50 then not so much.
    It's a perfectly consistent and honourable position to think that the referendum imposed an obligation to invoke Article 50 and negotiate a withdrawal agreement, but then to put that agreement back to the people to confirm that they want to go ahead.
    It is but it isn't the argument put by those arguing it was decisive at the time.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 2,684
    justin124 said:

    Byronic said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.
    Ulltra-Remainers like you are making a major tactical error. maybe a strategic error.

    They cannot hide their histrionic loathing of Boris (which largely stems from the simple fact he delivered Brexit), and when Remainers criticise him they go totally over the top. I mean "a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics"? It comes across as nuts. Boris may be a womanising wanker, but he isn't Mussolini.

    See Matthew Parris, passim. On every other issue Parris is measured and clever, when it comes to Boris he talks darkly and weirdly of conspiracies, and rants and foams about Boris's moral failings.

    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
    I voted Leave.
    lol. Fair enough. Apologies!

    But my point stands. The reaction to Boris is hysterical, overdone and counter-productive. A sober critique would be much smarter.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 25,580
    FPT @Philip_Thompson

    Re: your suggestion of putting Arlene Foster in the European Council with veto powers

    Man, what did the EU ever do to you? Drown your kitten when you were a kid? That’s some vicious sh1t you have planned...
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 12,580
    edited June 12

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:

    Makes me feel sad that 34% say no to that.
    I would definitely say no to that, it's very dumb.

    Small countries get more benefits from low taxes and regulations than big countries, because they get more revenue from business coming in from other countries *relative to the domestic revenue they forego*. This is why US companies end up incorporated in Delaware not Texas, and the Delaware of the EU is Estonia not Germany. It's also why tax havens are little places like the Cayman Islands, not big ones like Russia.

    Britain is a fairly big country, so if it's trying to set tax rates to beat small countries, it's doing it wrong.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 10,679
    justin124 said:

    Byronic said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.
    Ulltra-Remainers like you are making a major tactical error. maybe a strategic error.

    They cannot hide their histrionic loathing of Boris (which largely stems from the simple fact he delivered Brexit), and when Remainers criticise him they go totally over the top. I mean "a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics"? It comes across as nuts. Boris may be a womanising wanker, but he isn't Mussolini.

    See Matthew Parris, passim. On every other issue Parris is measured and clever, when it comes to Boris he talks darkly and weirdly of conspiracies, and rants and foams about Boris's moral failings.

    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
    I voted Leave.
    He's right then, you did make a major error! :wink:
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 3,675
    edited June 12
    JackW said:

    nichomar said:

    JackW said:

    nichomar said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    Bollocks
    That's totally unacceptable.

    The single word is very passe. We've had Bollocks To BREXIT and Bollocks To Bercow

    So what is it .... Bollocks To ...... ?!?!?
    Ok I’ll give you that, I believe that to say that the snp and the erg are the only people to have acted honorably is pushing it somewhat. The ERG are the reason we haven’t left the SNP want to leverage the situation to their advantage so it was easier to say the b word but I humbly apologize
    You get one week in ConHome suspended for a period not to exceed actual BREXIT.
    Sorry had just been out for a boozy meal with too much Spanish vino rosado and was not thinking straight. Gone a bit cool out here it’s windy and 20 deg
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 27,454

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:

    Makes me feel sad that 34% say no to that.
    I would definitely say no to that, it's very dumb.

    Small countries get more benefits from low taxes and regulations than big countries, because they get more revenue from business coming in from other countries *relative to the domestic revenue they forego*. This is why US companies end up incorporated in Delaware not Texas, and the Delaware of the EU is Estonia not Germany. It's also why tax havens are little places like the Cayman Islands, not big ones like Russia.

    Britain is a fairly big country, so if it's trying to set tax rates to beat small countries, it's doing it wrong.
    That's a very astute observation.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 21,554
    Byronic said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.
    Ultra-Remainers like you are making a major tactical error; maybe a strategic error.

    They cannot hide their histrionic loathing of Boris (which largely stems from the simple fact he delivered Brexit), and when Remainers criticise him they go totally over the top. I mean "a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics"? It comes across as nuts. Boris may be a womanising wanker, but he isn't Mussolini.

    See Matthew Parris, passim. On every other issue Parris is measured and clever, when it comes to Boris he talks darkly and weirdly of conspiracies, and rants and foams about Boris's moral failings.

    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
    Just a reminder that in disguise you are supposed to be pretending to be a remainer...
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 2,684
    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.
    Ultra-Remainers like you are making a major tactical error; maybe a strategic error.

    They cannot hide their histrionic loathing of Boris (which largely stems from the simple fact he delivered Brexit), and when Remainers criticise him they go totally over the top. I mean "a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics"? It comes across as nuts. Boris may be a womanising wanker, but he isn't Mussolini.

    See Matthew Parris, passim. On every other issue Parris is measured and clever, when it comes to Boris he talks darkly and weirdly of conspiracies, and rants and foams about Boris's moral failings.

    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
    Just a reminder that in disguise you are supposed to be pretending to be a remainer...
    lol. I get that this is your thing, and turns you on. Go for it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 32,014

    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    What happens if the bottom 3 each get 17 votes tomorrow? Do they all get eliminated, or does the first round get re-run?

    Re-run I think. It happened in 2001 when Ancram and Davis both trailed on 21 votes. In the "second" round, Davis got 18, and Ancram got 17. Ancram was officially eliminated, and Davis withdrew.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election
    +1
    They will all be pressured to withdraw.

    The Conservatives aren't in opposition and there's no time to fanny about and navel gaze on mathematical niceties.
    How can I live among this gentle, obsolescent breed of Tories and not weep?
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,946
    Byronic said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.
    Ultra-Remainers like you are making a major tactical error; maybe a strategic error.

    They cannot hide their histrionic loathing of Boris (which largely stems from the simple fact he delivered Brexit), and when Remainers criticise him they go totally over the top. I mean "a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics"? It comes across as nuts. Boris may be a womanising wanker, but he isn't Mussolini.

    See Matthew Parris, passim. On every other issue Parris is measured and clever, when it comes to Boris he talks darkly and weirdly of conspiracies, and rants and foams about Boris's moral failings.

    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
    If an individual is an MP, Cllr or party member or just a member of the public they have every right to criticise an individual who is a public figure. The only thing that curtails this right is libel laws, harassment or threats of violence. If Boris wants to be PM, he has to run the gauntlet of public opinion on his behaviour in the past, present and future. Johnson is being gifted the Premiership by the Brexit supporting media - You may be influenced by it but some of us can see past it and see his true characteristics for what they represent. Boris is a shyster of the first order - his leadership will end in massive failure....
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 2,684
    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    Have ComRes fucked it. This just seems bonkers

    More from Comedy Results:

    Makes me feel sad that 34% say no to that.
    I would definitely say no to that, it's very dumb.

    Small countries get more benefits from low taxes and regulations than big countries, because they get more revenue from business coming in from other countries *relative to the domestic revenue they forego*. This is why US companies end up incorporated in Delaware not Texas, and the Delaware of the EU is Estonia not Germany. It's also why tax havens are little places like the Cayman Islands, not big ones like Russia.

    Britain is a fairly big country, so if it's trying to set tax rates to beat small countries, it's doing it wrong.
    That's a very astute observation.
    Is it? Seems pretty obvious to me.

    Big countries can't be like Monaco, and have zero income tax. Monaco free rides on France for almost everything, but France doesn't mind, as Monaco is so small (and also attracts billionaires, who spend their money in France, mainly)/

    Medium sized countries like Ireland CAN have very low corp tax, but that era is maybe coming to an end.

    Big countries like the UK can have lowish corp tax, lowish income tax, and forego some welfare spending, and hope to prosper thereby. The USA does pretty well.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 3,675
    Scott_P said:
    There’s a word missing in that headline “to”
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 8,923

    justin124 said:

    Byronic said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.


    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
    I voted Leave.
    He's right then, you did make a major error! :wink:
    Not at all. I have never had strong views re- the EU. Calling a Referendum was an abdication of responsibility by Cameron and owed everything to his perceived interests of the Tory party - not the national interest. I was appalled by the style of politics we had seen from Cameron & Osborne as manifested in scaremongering during the 2015 election - attempted again in the 2016 London Mayoral election - and finally in the Referendum campaign. I was keen to deny any triumph to that approach to politics and cast my vote - not on the substantive issue at all - but in the hope of getting rid of both of them. I have no regrets at all - and was very content with the unexpected bonus a year later when the Tories became paralysed following the loss of their majority.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 10,679
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Byronic said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.


    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
    I voted Leave.
    He's right then, you did make a major error! :wink:
    Not at all. I have never had strong views re- the EU. Calling a Referendum was an abdication of responsibility by Cameron and owed everything to his perceived interests of the Tory party - not the national interest. I was appalled by the style of politics we had seen from Cameron & Osborne as manifested in scaremongering during the 2015 election - attempted again in the 2016 London Mayoral election - and finally in the Referendum campaign. I was keen to deny any triumph to that approach to politics and cast my vote - not on the substantive issue at all - but in the hope of getting rid of both of them. I have no regrets at all - and was very content with the unexpected bonus a year later when the Tories became paralysed following the loss of their majority.
    I'm glad it's all working out so well for you.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 2,684

    Byronic said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Toryed.
    Ultra-Remainers like you are making a major tactical error; maybe a strategic error.

    They cannot hide their histrionic loathing of Boris (which largely stems from the simple fact he delivered Brexit), and when Remainers criticise him they go totally over the top. I mean "a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics"? It comes across as nuts. Boris may be a womanising wanker, but he isn't Mussolini.

    See Matthew Parris, passim. On every other issue Parris is measured and clever, when it comes to Boris he talks darkly and weirdly of conspiracies, and rants and foams about Boris's moral failings.

    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
    If an individual is an MP, Cllr or party member or just a member of the public they have every right to criticise an individual who is a public figure. The only thing that curtails this right is libel laws, harassment or threats of violence. If Boris wants to be PM, he has to run the gauntlet of public opinion on his behaviour in the past, present and future. Johnson is being gifted the Premiership by the Brexit supporting media - You may be influenced by it but some of us can see past it and see his true characteristics for what they represent. Boris is a shyster of the first order - his leadership will end in massive failure....
    I agree with all of that. And Boris may well be the clownish failure you predict.

    My point is more that high profile media figures overstep in their criticism of him, and come across as partisan, or mad (like Parris)

    e.g. see this tweet by Beth Rigby of Sky.



    "You brought shame on your party" is embedded in her question. It is a presumed fact. That comes across badly. I think.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 1,712
    Byronic said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.
    Ultra-Remainers like you are making a major tactical error; maybe a strategic error.

    They cannot hide their histrionic loathing of Boris (which largely stems from the simple fact he delivered Brexit), and when Remainers criticise him they go totally over the top. I mean "a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics"? It comes across as nuts. Boris may be a womanising wanker, but he isn't Mussolini.

    See Matthew Parris, passim. On every other issue Parris is measured and clever, when it comes to Boris he talks darkly and weirdly of conspiracies, and rants and foams about Boris's moral failings.

    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
    Just a reminder that in disguise you are supposed to be pretending to be a remainer...
    lol. I get that this is your thing, and turns you on. Go for it.
    Not that anyone cares but I reckon Byronic is SeanT too (IP addresses are not hard to hide). Syntax and vocabulary are too alike.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 25,580
    JackW said:

    nichomar said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    Bollocks
    That's totally unacceptable.

    The single word is very passe. We've had Bollocks To BREXIT and Bollocks To Bercow

    So what is it .... Bollocks To ...... ?!?!?
    Berc-xit?

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 25,580

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Cox's support confirms that Boris isn't going for no deal, whatever he might say.
    Boris is all things to all men.
    I can't but admit to being somewhat intrigued by what a Boris premiership will be like...
    Cynical.
    It would be an obvious buying opportunity especially for someone with US income
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 31,067
    kyf_100 said:

    Byronic said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.
    Ultra-Remainers like you are making a major tactical error; maybe a strategic error.

    They cannot hide their histrionic loathing of Boris (which largely stems from the simple fact he delivered Brexit), and when Remainers criticise him they go totally over the top. I mean "a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics"? It comes across as nuts. Boris may be a womanising wanker, but he isn't Mussolini.

    See Matthew Parris, passim. On every other issue Parris is measured and clever, when it comes to Boris he talks darkly and weirdly of conspiracies, and rants and foams about Boris's moral failings.

    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
    Just a reminder that in disguise you are supposed to be pretending to be a remainer...
    lol. I get that this is your thing, and turns you on. Go for it.
    Not that anyone cares but I reckon Byronic is SeanT too (IP addresses are not hard to hide). Syntax and vocabulary are too alike.
    He really isn't.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 32,014
    kyf_100 said:

    Byronic said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris has the Big Mo now. He has won more today than 4 candidates have so far. Some MPs will back him now not because they think he is best choice but because they think he will win.

    He will.
    The Tory party is presented with a choice between two Old Etonians. One has a genuine vision of what is needed in these times - is clearly very gifted - is guided by the needs of all his countrymen. A truly good man.
    The other is a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics. A malign individual guided by nothing more than personal self interest and completely devoid of principle or morality.
    We know who the Tories will choose - and that choice will convey so much about what they really amount to as human beings.A lower form of life indeed.
    Ultra-Remainers like you are making a major tactical error; maybe a strategic error.

    They cannot hide their histrionic loathing of Boris (which largely stems from the simple fact he delivered Brexit), and when Remainers criticise him they go totally over the top. I mean "a shyster of the worst kind at so many levels which extend far beyond politics"? It comes across as nuts. Boris may be a womanising wanker, but he isn't Mussolini.

    See Matthew Parris, passim. On every other issue Parris is measured and clever, when it comes to Boris he talks darkly and weirdly of conspiracies, and rants and foams about Boris's moral failings.

    This doesn't persuade anyone who does not already agree. It makes Parris look mildly unhinged. And an entire subset of the chatterati are already losing it, just like Parris - simply because Boris.

    The entirely predictable result - unless Remainers are very careful, and rein it in - will be a growing sympathy for Boris, and whatever he does. Stupid.
    Just a reminder that in disguise you are supposed to be pretending to be a remainer...
    lol. I get that this is your thing, and turns you on. Go for it.
    Not that anyone cares but I reckon Byronic is SeanT too (IP addresses are not hard to hide). Syntax and vocabulary are too alike.
    No, I am SeanT!
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 2,280

    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    If Boris does win I'm wondering how clever Grieve and his fellow Remain backing MPs who rejected May's very soft Brexit will feel.

    Even Ken Clarke backed it FFS.

    They have made it quite clear through their actions that they would rather have the most chaotic Brexit possible than personally contribute to delivering any other Brexit deal. They might yet succeed and get Remain, and they have no problem with no deal being risked if that is achievable.
    Precisely.

    The only people in this whole farce who have acted honourably are the SNP and ERG.
    I'd say those three Labour MPs who voted for the deal are very honourable.
    Indeed.
    What about the MPs who represented their constituents who voted remain and have stuck with them
    If they voted against the having the referendum and against invoking article 50 then they've been consistent. If they voted to have the referendum but want to reject its results, or voted to invoke A50 then not so much.
    It's a perfectly consistent and honourable position to think that the referendum imposed an obligation to invoke Article 50 and negotiate a withdrawal agreement, but then to put that agreement back to the people to confirm that they want to go ahead.
    No, it's not. All that course does is to enable the EU to offer humiliating terms in the certain knowledge that their worthless "offer" would then rejected by the people and the UK would then remain within the EU. So it gives an EU a veto on whether we leave or not, and one they will be bound to use since they want us to remain.

    The vote to leave in 2016 amounted to more than the UK asking the EU for permission to leave, and thus it requires that the UK must be prepared to follow through and leave before reaching an agreement if acceptable terms are not forthcoming at that point.
This discussion has been closed.