So when a UKIP politician assaults a journalist, the BBC plasters it all over its news coverage, but when a Labour politician does it, the BBC managerial staff covers it up.
It is really time we got rid of this propaganda outfit's state monopoly.
Handler did it. Had Corbyn done it himself, then it would have been all over the media like when Prescott hit someone and the BBC plastered it all over their coverage..
Keep an eye on John Woodcock, MP for Barrow and Furness (majority 795) who promised in his election manifesto to resign if Labour opposed Trident renewal. Now that would be a spectacularly fun by-election.
Agree a likely jumper. Woodcock is chair of Progress and a key member of Liz Kendall's campaign. Not exactly a success.
On topic: I think this is a misreading. There is not a snowflake's chance in hell of the Parliamentary Labour Party campaigning for the Out side. It just ain't gonna happen.
Indeed, but a free vote is possible, which would make very little difference to Labour but might increase pressure on Cameron to let eurosceptic ministers campaign.
This is standard procedure for a burgeoning Fascist Party: soon the the crack Labour teams will be in uniform. Expect to see the Corbyn Jugend very soon.
Ridiculous nonsense.
No he's right, it is standard procedure for a burgeoning fascist party.
Remember the Kipper that hit Michael Crick over the head?
Really TSE? Crick was hit on the head by a 6 page pamphlet, FGS! He wasn't bludgeoned with a heavy club by thugs of the left or right, or physically thrown about. Not only that but the Kipper was sacked from UKIP for that action.
Agreed. For all of the lunacy that is Corbyn and his acolytes on most things there is a real issue here on housing which needs fixing, and the Govt needs to start to get a better grip.
Now Jezza in his instincts seems to want rent controls, compulsory purchases of private property at a discount, demonisation of private landlords (many of whom are trying get a return for their old age in a world where interest rates are sod all, and pensions are the smouldering ruin left by G Brown), combined with not much in the way of immigration controls which will of course tend to concentrate the problem even more in London and the S East, as I'm sure immigrants don't look at the map and alight on Salford, Llanelli, and Motherwell as places to build a life. It's a receipe for disaster as the population most rises in the "wrong places", people sell flats rather than have the Dear Leader decide the price of rents and have rafts of other regulations imposed. A temporary housing glut in certain sectors might ensue pushing prices down (all that negative equity appearing), which may help the better off renters closer to saving a deposit, but will then create shortages further down the scale as rented flats/houses disappear from the market.
However, that's not to say there is not a real live problem (particularly in London, where half a mill doesn't seem to buy you a decent family house anywhere you'd aspire to live - from my experience of the place at least - mostly the N West suburbs), and there must be insecurity for people trying, for example, to educate kids without longish tenure of housing, difficulty getting people to work in certain jobs, given the costs of accommodation in certain areas, and just the knock on effects on the economy where sections of the population are shelling out large percentages of income on rent/mortgages rather than other "stuff".
We simply have to increase supply and the Govt should be incentivising industry to expand big time, via tax breaks, less regulation (yes that's going to mean upsetting a few Tory nimbies here and there), less green belt, more "upwards" building (and hopefully avoiding the disasters of the 60's), and yes conceivably intervening to build more social housing in a targeted way. Finding a way of not having the population increase by nearly the population of Cardiff each year is also part of that equation.
to live in a camp for months, if not years, with no prospects, would seem like purgatory. The camps can and must be a temporary solution not a permanent home for the Syrian Diaspora.
You are quite right that living in one of those camps must be miserable - the very first thing that needs to be sorted is to ensure that they are fully and well funded by the international community. The 'hard headed realists' must not lose compassion for the very real suffering these Syrian refugees are enduring.
However, given there are 3 or 4 million displaced Syrians and no country has that many empty houses, wherever they are moved to, they will be living in camps for quite some time. Better to focus money and effort on improving their lives where they are rather than wasting it in transport costs.
The issue with this is that in the UK at least, most empty homes are likely to be in areas with very high unemployment so if you put refugees in them they would struggle to find a job.
The issue of empty homes is a red herring. Given Spanish levels of unemployment - just what benefit would a million migrants bring to them? These mass movements of people are far from the normal movements between countries and the movements up to now within the EU. They are illegal and unregulated and it must be quite clear to even the thickest lefty moron living in their cloud cuckoo land that any accession to this movement will result in greater tragedies all round.
Hmmm.
A large number of billions coming to be spent in Spain every year would have no effect? I don't see that.
If you want to see the costs involved, consider that Frau Merkel has budgeted - what was it - 5+bn Euro for the first 800,000?
This is standard procedure for a burgeoning Fascist Party: soon the the crack Labour teams will be in uniform. Expect to see the Corbyn Jugend very soon.
Ridiculous nonsense.
No he's right, it is standard procedure for a burgeoning fascist party.
Remember the Kipper that hit Michael Crick over the head?
Really TSE? Crick was hit on the head by a 6 page pamphlet, FGS! He wasn't bludgeoned with a heavy club by thugs of the left or right, or physically thrown about. Not only that but the Kipper was sacked from UKIP for that action.
It wasn't Corbyn, it wasn't a member of his staff. What do you want them to publish?
Well all good things come to an end: Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago Update - Austrian rail operator OEBB says train traffic between #Salzburg and #Germany has been halted on the orders of German authorities
Expect explosions from the local populations and mayhem from the migrants, (especially where the group is mostly men), in Serbia, Macedonia, Greece and possibly Croatia. With the mass demonstrations on Hungary's borders, now closed.
Time to tear up the Refugee Convention? Or is it in shreds already?
Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?
1) I've tried my best, but I can't get outraged by a lifelong Republican not singing God Save The Queen
2) PB is at its best when it is slight contrarian
3) It's bloody tedious writing Corbyn is crap threads.
I agree. In the spirit of contrarianism, why don't we try and find 3 nice things to say about Corbyn. I will start.
1. He's keen on allotments and gardening. This is a good thing. Not enough allotments. Not enough green space e.g. on roof terraces, people not making the most of their front gardens etc. More power to Guerilla Gardeners!
2. He voted against ID cards.
3. He raised mental health as an issue which needs more focus. Couldn't agree more. The Lib Dems did some good work on this in the last Parliament. I hope the Tories continue with it and if Labour support this I think this will be a really encouraging development, particularly mental health services for young people.
There.
(Normal service will be resumed later.)
As my business is Horticulture and I chair a charity helping people with mental health issues through the use of social and horticultural therapy, I should be a Corbynite.
Keep an eye on John Woodcock, MP for Barrow and Furness (majority 795) who promised in his election manifesto to resign if Labour opposed Trident renewal. Now that would be a spectacularly fun by-election.
Are there Corbynistic stirrings in the Peoples Republic of Hersham, are the residents revolting? ....
Having just returned from two weeks in the People's Republic of China (scrambling unsteadily but with a certain grace along its Great Wall, and conversing with 10 year olds practicsing their near perfect english), I am now at one with the workers and peasants of Hersham.
Well all good things come to an end: Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago Update - Austrian rail operator OEBB says train traffic between #Salzburg and #Germany has been halted on the orders of German authorities
Expect explosions from the local populations and mayhem from the migrants, (especially where the group is mostly men), in Serbia, Macedonia, Greece and possibly Croatia. With the mass demonstrations on Hungary's borders, now closed.
Had time to think of a response to the disgusting levels of sexual abuse in the Israeli military I posted for you yesterday yet? Or does it only concern you if Muslims are involved?
It is obvious that you hate Israel, Saddened, and probably Jews as well. Do I despise Islam? You bet I do.
I have no issue with Israel I have an issue with racists. So therefore have an issue with you.
I'm certainly not a racist. Islam is a religious/political movement, not a race. There are muslims all over the world consisting of many races, or didn't you know that. So tell me, what race do I purport to hate @saddened?
From the Marchant piece - I think we're already there.
Seven: the party will become so obsessed with the idea that smart management of the media is an evil, that there will be a preventable, negative story about Labour on a daily basis. There will also be unpreventable ones, stemming from the whole churchyards-full of skeletons contained in the closets of Corbyn, McDonnell and other prominent figures. CCHQ already think that all their Christmases have come at once, and would be well advised to save some money by giving their Attack units a year off. The stories will write themselves.
Where are the #jesuischarlie virtue signallers now?
Seems as though they are outrageous for the sake of being outrageous... That doesn't take much bravery or wisdom in my book
Yup: that's what satire is about. Outrage, bad taste, shock. See Hogarth, Rowlandson, Gillray - or listen Simon Schama on just this point on this morning's Today programme at about 7:40 or so.
No bravery should be needed because those who don't like it don't need to read it. The bravery has only been required because people have chosen violence as a reaction. That's their choice - and a very bad choice it is too.
Agreed. For all of the lunacy that is Corbyn and his acolytes on most things there is a real issue here on housing which needs fixing, and the Govt needs to start to get a better grip.
Now Jezza in his instincts seems to want rent controls, compulsory purchases of private property at a discount, demonisation of private landlords (many of whom are trying get a return for their old age in a world where interest rates are sod all, and pensions are the smouldering ruin left by G Brown), combined with not much in the way of immigration controls which will of course tend to concentrate the problem even more in London and the S East, as I'm sure immigrants don't look at the map and alight on Salford, Llanelli, and Motherwell as places to build a life. It's a receipe for disaster as the population most rises in the "wrong places", people sell flats rather than have the Dear Leader decide the price of rents and have rafts of other regulations imposed. A temporary housing glut in certain sectors might ensue pushing prices down (all that negative equity appearing), which may help the better off renters closer to saving a deposit, but will then create shortages further down the scale as rented flats/houses disappear from the market.
However, that's not to say there is not a real live problem (particularly in London, where half a mill doesn't seem to buy you a decent family house anywhere you'd aspire to live - from my experience of the place at least - mostly the N West suburbs), and there must be insecurity for people trying, for example, to educate kids without longish tenure of housing, difficulty getting people to work in certain jobs, given the costs of accommodation in certain areas, and just the knock on effects on the economy where sections of the population are shelling out large percentages of income on rent/mortgages rather than other "stuff".
We simply have to increase supply and the Govt should be incentivising industry to expand big time, via tax breaks, less regulation (yes that's going to mean upsetting a few Tory nimbies here and there), less green belt, more "upwards" building (and hopefully avoiding the disasters of the 60's), and yes conceivably intervening to build more social housing in a targeted way. Finding a way of not having the population increase by nearly the population of Cardiff each year is also part of that equation.
It ain't easy at all, but we have to act.
Agreed. The Tories are being too complacent on this. They seem to be assuming that simply reheating a version of what they did in the 1980s will work. And I don't think that's enough. It's an open goal for Labour and it is interesting that Corbyn has mentioned it because that will resonate with people - even if his solutions are not the right ones.
Where are the #jesuischarlie virtue signallers now?
Seems as though they are outrageous for the sake of being outrageous... That doesn't take much bravery or wisdom in my book
I have never thought the Hebdo cartoons amusing or in good taste, but that is not the point. If free speech only applies to approved topics then it is a pretty feeble freedom. The right to say things that other people disapprove of is fundamental to the concept.
Good post (in other words I agree). The desire of both inners and outers to have Cameron on their side is very strong. Some on here, such as Casino_Royale are practically offering him a sainthood if he cannot bring himself to argue for In.
I think a lot of people in this country trust his judgement ahead of any other politician around today. Not the committed of course but the much more substantial its all a bit difficult crowd. If Cameron says we have a future outside the EU we do and we will very likely find out if he is right in due course.
....
I don't think it was UKIP, which Cameron never took very seriously, but party management that drove him to promise a referendum. It was a position that the Tories could agree upon, even if they did not agree on the best result.
The Scottish example makes one hesitate but I do think it is unlikely we would have another EU referendum in, say, 20 years whichever way it went. The only possibility would be if the government post Cameron negotiated our out arrangements and then asked again, well do you want this or to stay in?
We need the negotiations and thus the referendum because the EU is changing with the creation of the Euro. The Greek crisis shows this in spades. We are not in the Euro and so our differences with the EU/Eurozone are clear and inevitable. Cameron said all this in 2013 (Feb I think). As for the result - it does not matter in respect of future govts. We can stay on or we can go out. A future govt can take any stance it wants if it thinks it can persuade/hoodwink the electorate. What is clear is we will have a referendum and everyone will have to think about the consequences of their vote in relation to the facts at the time. Just live with that and get on with something else, or as per the new (I think Horizon based) phrase, 'Suck it up'.
Unemployment steady (rate down), pay rises up (well above inflation), employment still rising (up 42k QoQ). Hours worked down, employment up, so probable probability gains as well, but we need to wait for the BoE report to confirm it.
I think the easy gains have gone though, now we need businesses to invest and grow their employee base. It's not easy.
Good news on youth unemployment as well, down to 15.6%, among the lowest in the EU, but we still need to reduce that to less than 10% sooner rather than later.
I do think we are seeing the end of the really quite peculiar UK jobs miracle. The move to the living wage will push employers to be more sparing with labour and improve productivity.
The reduction in WTCs will make part time work of 16 hours or so marginally less attractive, albeit full time work more so. So there will over time be more full time and a reduction in part time working.
There are signs that the economy is starting to slow. If that continues total employment may struggle to hold current levels. Immigration and an increasing population should then see rising unemployment but hopefully only on a modest scale.
I think immigration will begin to slow as a natural consequence of our slowing jobs market. The employment rate among Bulgarians and Romanians has increased in the last few months, that alone will slow the rate of new arrivals.
Well all good things come to an end: Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago Update - Austrian rail operator OEBB says train traffic between #Salzburg and #Germany has been halted on the orders of German authorities
Expect explosions from the local populations and mayhem from the migrants, (especially where the group is mostly men), in Serbia, Macedonia, Greece and possibly Croatia. With the mass demonstrations on Hungary's borders, now closed.
Had time to think of a response to the disgusting levels of sexual abuse in the Israeli military I posted for you yesterday yet? Or does it only concern you if Muslims are involved?
It is obvious that you hate Israel, Saddened, and probably Jews as well. Do I despise Islam? You bet I do.
I have no issue with Israel I have an issue with racists. So therefore have an issue with you.
I'm certainly not a racist. Islam is a religious/political movement, not a race. There are muslims all over the world consisting of many races, or didn't you know that. So tell me, what race do I purport to hate @saddened?
You are a racist. You scour the internet searching for negative stories about "others" while ignoring incidents of exactly the same nature from people you approve of. You are a nasty bigot, with a twisted world view. You may not believe you are a bigot and a racist but your words prove you are.
Where are the #jesuischarlie virtue signallers now?
Seems as though they are outrageous for the sake of being outrageous... That doesn't take much bravery or wisdom in my book
Yup: that's what satire is about. Outrage, bad taste, shock. See Hogarth, Rowlandson, Gillray - or listen Simon Schama on just this point on this morning's Today programme at about 7:40 or so.
No bravery should be needed because those who don't like it don't need to read it. The bravery has only been required because people have chosen violence as a reaction. That's their choice - and a very bad choice it is too.
Personally, I prefer Matt.
I support their right to be offensive but I also have the right to be offended. They are making a point about western hypocrisy but...nah.
Well all good things come to an end: Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago Update - Austrian rail operator OEBB says train traffic between #Salzburg and #Germany has been halted on the orders of German authorities
Expect explosions from the local populations and mayhem from the migrants, (especially where the group is mostly men), in Serbia, Macedonia, Greece and possibly Croatia. With the mass demonstrations on Hungary's borders, now closed.
Had time to think of a response to the disgusting levels of sexual abuse in the Israeli military I posted for you yesterday yet? Or does it only concern you if Muslims are involved?
It is obvious that you hate Israel, Saddened, and probably Jews as well. Do I despise Islam? You bet I do.
I have no issue with Israel I have an issue with racists. So therefore have an issue with you.
I'm certainly not a racist. Islam is a religious/political movement, not a race. There are muslims all over the world consisting of many races, or didn't you know that. So tell me, what race do I purport to hate @saddened?
You are a racist. You scour the internet searching for negative stories about "others" while ignoring incidents of exactly the same nature from people you approve of. You are a nasty bigot, with a twisted world view. You may not believe you are a bigot and a racist but your words prove you are.
You area stupid cretinous oaf that doesn't know the meaning of race! Now go away in a corner.
@MSmithsonPB: Just had my first next LAB leader bet - £10 on Alan Johnson at 25/1 on Betfair. Could he be the party's Michael Howard?
That is certainly value. Of the Howard options, only Johnson and Harman look viable; Harman probably more so but Johnson is overpriced at 25s.
Someone (sorry for the lack of namecheck) suggested Hilary Benn as a unity option - he is in the Shadow Cabinet but was also in government under Blair and Brown. Of the current front bench, that's probably as good a shout as anyone though whether he'll be able to walk the tightrope of foreign policy with Corbyn as leader remains to be seen. If he doesn't, then he might still be an option providing he resigns rather than become excessively tainted.
Keep an eye on John Woodcock, MP for Barrow and Furness (majority 795) who promised in his election manifesto to resign if Labour opposed Trident renewal. Now that would be a spectacularly fun by-election.
It is also worth pointing out that Barrow is likely to be "flipped" to the Tories anyway by the boundary changes
Doesn't Bercow essentially count as a Tory as far as Parliamentary votes are concerned? As the Speaker and Deputy Speakers don't generally vote, Bercow is essentially a Tory MP still permanently tied with a Labour Deputy Speaker.
Ok, how many Tory backbench questions will be about the National anthem?
They could all stand up and sing it, just as Jeremy Corbyn attempts his first question. Will the Speaker stop the singing of the National Anthem? How many Labour MP's would stand and sing too?
The Speccy reported that Labour didn't realise they were going to lose until mid-afternoon when they tweeted a shoutout to anyone in Parly to get down to vote. Too late in the day.
Keep an eye on John Woodcock, MP for Barrow and Furness (majority 795) who promised in his election manifesto to resign if Labour opposed Trident renewal. Now that would be a spectacularly fun by-election.
It is also worth pointing out that Barrow is likely to be "flipped" to the Tories anyway by the boundary changes
Doesn't Bercow essentially count as a Tory as far as Parliamentary votes are concerned? As the Speaker and Deputy Speakers don't generally vote, Bercow is essentially a Tory MP still permanently tied with a Labour Deputy Speaker.
Well all good things come to an end: Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago Update - Austrian rail operator OEBB says train traffic between #Salzburg and #Germany has been halted on the orders of German authorities
Expect explosions from the local populations and mayhem from the migrants, (especially where the group is mostly men), in Serbia, Macedonia, Greece and possibly Croatia. With the mass demonstrations on Hungary's borders, now closed.
Had time to think of a response to the disgusting levels of sexual abuse in the Israeli military I posted for you yesterday yet? Or does it only concern you if Muslims are involved?
It is obvious that you hate Israel, Saddened, and probably Jews as well. Do I despise Islam? You bet I do.
I have no issue with Israel I have an issue with racists. So therefore have an issue with you.
I'm certainly not a racist. Islam is a religious/political movement, not a race. There are muslims all over the world consisting of many races, or didn't you know that. So tell me, what race do I purport to hate @saddened?
You are a racist. You scour the internet searching for negative stories about "others" while ignoring incidents of exactly the same nature from people you approve of. You are a nasty bigot, with a twisted world view. You may not believe you are a bigot and a racist but your words prove you are.
You area stupid cretinous oaf that doesn't know the meaning of race! Now go away in a corner.
I will pull you up on all your crap, racist, bigot.
Keep an eye on John Woodcock, MP for Barrow and Furness (majority 795) who promised in his election manifesto to resign if Labour opposed Trident renewal. Now that would be a spectacularly fun by-election.
Are there Corbynistic stirrings in the Peoples Republic of Hersham, are the residents revolting? ....
Having just returned from two weeks in the People's Republic of China (scrambling unsteadily but with a certain grace along its Great Wall, and conversing with 10 year olds practicsing their near perfect english), I am now at one with the workers and peasants of Hersham.
Thank you.
The thoughts of Chairman JohnO are always welcomed by the workers of Hersham and PB.
Good post (in other words I agree). The desire of both inners and outers to have Cameron on their side is very strong. Some on here, such as Casino_Royale are practically offering him a sainthood if he cannot bring himself to argue for In.
I think a lot of people in this country trust his judgement ahead of any other politician around today. Not the committed of course but the much more substantial its all a bit difficult crowd. If Cameron says we have a future outside the EU we do and we will very likely find out if he is right in due course.
....
I don't think it was UKIP, which Cameron never took very seriously, but party management that drove him to promise a referendum. It was a position that the Tories could agree upon, even if they did not agree on the best result.
The Scottish example makes one hesitate but I do think it is unlikely we would have another EU referendum in, say, 20 years whichever way it went. The only possibility would be if the government post Cameron negotiated our out arrangements and then asked again, well do you want this or to stay in?
We need the negotiations and thus the referendum because the EU is changing with the creation of the Euro. The Greek crisis shows this in spades. We are not in the Euro and so our differences with the EU/Eurozone are clear and inevitable. Cameron said all this in 2013 (Feb I think). As for the result - it does not matter in respect of future govts. We can stay on or we can go out. A future govt can take any stance it wants if it thinks it can persuade/hoodwink the electorate. What is clear is we will have a referendum and everyone will have to think about the consequences of their vote in relation to the facts at the time. Just live with that and get on with something else, or as per the new (I think Horizon based) phrase, 'Suck it up'.
I have a vague idea I am being insulted but I don't really know why.
At the risk of aggravating my folly I think it is obvious that the timing of the referendum is being driven by internal Tory politics than any specific choice we have to make. If it was not the obvious commitment would be to have an In/Out referendum on the next Treaty change. There will be no new Treaty by 2017.
I agree with you (if this helps) that the Euro has changed the nature of the EU and, as non members, not necessarily to our advantage. I have said so many times.
Agreed. For all of the lunacy that is Corbyn and his acolytes on most things there is a real issue here on housing which needs fixing, and the Govt needs to start to get a better grip.
...
However, that's not to say there is not a real live problem (particularly in London, where half a mill doesn't seem to buy you a decent family house anywhere you'd aspire to live - from my experience of the place at least - mostly the N West suburbs), and there must be insecurity for people trying, for example, to educate kids without longish tenure of housing, difficulty getting people to work in certain jobs, given the costs of accommodation in certain areas, and just the knock on effects on the economy where sections of the population are shelling out large percentages of income on rent/mortgages rather than other "stuff".
We simply have to increase supply and the Govt should be incentivising industry to expand big time, via tax breaks, less regulation (yes that's going to mean upsetting a few Tory nimbies here and there), less green belt, more "upwards" building (and hopefully avoiding the disasters of the 60's), and yes conceivably intervening to build more social housing in a targeted way. Finding a way of not having the population increase by nearly the population of Cardiff each year is also part of that equation.
It ain't easy at all, but we have to act.
Agreed. The Tories are being too complacent on this. They seem to be assuming that simply reheating a version of what they did in the 1980s will work. And I don't think that's enough. It's an open goal for Labour and it is interesting that Corbyn has mentioned it because that will resonate with people - even if his solutions are not the right ones.
It's not an open goal because while there is clearly a problem, there is far less clearly any easy solution.
More houses? Nimbys. Less immigration? Easier said than done. Rent controls? If big, then they may distort the market leading to a slump in prices, negative equity, forced termination of tenancies or a lack of maintenance. If small, then they'll make no difference. More council housing? Funded how? More sheltered housing? Probably needed and deliverable but only chipping at the problem. Discourage foreign investment in the housing market? Impossible within the EU and already been tried to little effect for those outside it.
Where are the #jesuischarlie virtue signallers now?
Seems as though they are outrageous for the sake of being outrageous... That doesn't take much bravery or wisdom in my book
I have never thought the Hebdo cartoons amusing or in good taste, but that is not the point. If free speech only applies to approved topics then it is a pretty feeble freedom. The right to say things that other people disapprove of is fundamental to the concept.
Someone needs to make that point to the State Government of Quebec (and the CPS in Northern Ireland).
@MSmithsonPB: Just had my first next LAB leader bet - £10 on Alan Johnson at 25/1 on Betfair. Could he be the party's Michael Howard?
That is certainly value. Of the Howard options, only Johnson and Harman look viable; Harman probably more so but Johnson is overpriced at 25s.
Someone (sorry for the lack of namecheck) suggested Hilary Benn as a unity option - he is in the Shadow Cabinet but was also in government under Blair and Brown. Of the current front bench, that's probably as good a shout as anyone though whether he'll be able to walk the tightrope of foreign policy with Corbyn as leader remains to be seen. If he doesn't, then he might still be an option providing he resigns rather than become excessively tainted.
Johnson odds have shortened considerably. The PB effect?
Pardon me this is a silly thread header. Benn has issued a statement saying there are no circumstances where labour would leave the EU
To be fair, Benn can say what he likes, but if Corbyn and his Shadow Chancellor decide to campaign to leave then that will be Labour's "official" position. Of course others in the Labour Party can go off and campaign as they wish (like in 75) but as long as Corbyn leads the party he can pretty much do as he wishes.
Benn issued a statement it is utterly clear... I posted it at the time but it looks like it was ignored by the readership and totally missed by the editorship. https://www.politicshome.com/foreign-and-defence/articles/story/labour-will-back-eu-membership-all-circumstances-benn 'But Mr Benn, who is remaining in post as Shadow Foreign Secretary, said this morning Mr Corbyn did not want to leave the EU. “Jeremy said, whatever differences we may have with some aspects of European policy, whatever reforms we want to see, we will stay to fight together for a better Europe. It’s absolutely clear,” he told the Today programme. Asked to confirm that this would be the case regardless of the renegotiation being undertaken by the Prime Minister, he said: “Under all circumstances.” ' You can sniff at this if you like but the article header and premise is bogus.
The problem with a 'Michael Howard' scenario for Labour is that it requires near-unanimity amongst the PLP. Even if we assume that Corbyn could be intimidated into resigning and a Howard-like alternative agreed on by the grandees, it would only take one significant figure to throw his or her hat into the ring as an alternative candidate in order to trigger another full-scale leadership election. The only requirement would be to get 35 nominations, which is not a very high bar. Judging by the intensity of the acrimony and civil war raging at the moment, near-unanimity looks a bit unlikely, to put it mildly. And as soon as there were two candidates, others would follow. The fun would begin all over again.
Where are the #jesuischarlie virtue signallers now?
Seems as though they are outrageous for the sake of being outrageous... That doesn't take much bravery or wisdom in my book
Yup: that's what satire is about. Outrage, bad taste, shock. See Hogarth, Rowlandson, Gillray - or listen Simon Schama on just this point on this morning's Today programme at about 7:40 or so.
No bravery should be needed because those who don't like it don't need to read it. The bravery has only been required because people have chosen violence as a reaction. That's their choice - and a very bad choice it is too.
I don't know that satire has to be about bad taste and shocking... People often say that outrageous behaviour or pushing the boundaries in art/satire is 'brave' that's the point I made, I thought that was obvious. Obviously I don't agree with the violence but really I just don't find bad taste/shocking behaviour of this kind to my taste especially in an incendiary atmosphere
No matter how polite and well-mannered Corbyn is at PMQs the tory benches are going to be so loud it'll be as if nothing has changed and his supporters will be majorly disappointed.
We have a drowning woman live on BBC2. Andrew Neil is brutal as always, Labour MP can't stand to either back Corbyn or go against him and so sounds pathetic.
It's not an open goal because while there is clearly a problem, there is far less clearly any easy solution.
Indeed so. In addition to the points you mention, there's also the very practical problem that the housebuilding industry is already working flat out. There simply isn't any spare capacity at the moment; they are constrained by shortage of skilled labour and even shortage of materials including bricks. Increasing the supply of housing is going to take time.
Mr. G, if someone's pushed to the ground it's legitimate cause for complaint [there's also the issue of damage to the camera].
It's unacceptable for the press to be physically assault [as is alleged] by the entourage of a politician.
MD who knows who was pushing who, they should not be blocking people from going about their business and sticking camera's in their faces. If he was standing at the side and the guy went over and pushed him fair enough , if he was in his face and blocking/harassing him then lucky it was just a push.
“The prospects of Labour opposing British membership of the European Union, or adopting a position of neutrality, has grown markedly after the Trades Union Congress (TUC) voted to recommend Britain leave the EU if David Cameron negotiated a new European settlement that watered down workers’ rights.”
This is political cover.
The EU has always been opposed to trade unions. It does not speak the language of solidarity, and its preferred models of workplace representation do not include them. Indeed a recent emphasis on an individual's right to consultation has the potential to completely outflank them.
Every time a piece of EU legislation is incorporated into English law, we write in trade union roles where there were none in the original. Now of course that is exactly what is supposed to happen; each country merges existing national structures and regimes with each EU directive. But it does demonstrate that trade unionism is considered a national anomaly, and not part of the EU structure itself.
@BBCAllegra: Understand from friend of BBC cameraman James Webb he's out of hosp + "100% likely" to go to police after being "pushed by Corbyn driver"
what a jessie, "the big boy pushed me officer"
I love how you defend violence when it's on your side of the spectrum...
How do you know it was violence , more likely they were pushing and jostling the guy and stopping him going about his lawful business, sticking cameras in his face, fell over and then being embarrassed for being such a jessie claim he pushed them. Will be shouting for compensation next.
Definitely the best journalist the BBC has, he takes no nonsense and tears apart MPs from all parties (without talking over them as seems to be the norm now).
It's not an open goal because while there is clearly a problem, there is far less clearly any easy solution.
Indeed so. In addition to the points you mention, there's also the very practical problem that the housebuilding industry is already working flat out. There simply isn't any spare capacity at the moment; they are constrained by shortage of skilled labour and even shortage of materials including bricks. Increasing the supply of housing is going to take time.
Construction has too much of a cyclical nature. This happens every time there is a recession and then recovery, with skilled labour and material being in shortage once recovery begins. There must be a case for having the house building industry as a special case and having government support for the housing industry during recessions. It would need to be carefully controlled and defined however.
Yesterday Mr Crick was one of several journalists critical of Mr Corbyn's attitude towards the media.
Mr Crick said: 'When there are cameras outside your house, you really have got to smile and say 'Good morning!' and not put your hand over the lens - you might as well write 'guilty' on it. It really is about the worst thing you can do'.
Mr. G, it's my understanding that the law would disagree, though others here are better versed in such things than me.
MD, someone stopping a person going about their lawful business, harassing them and sticking objects in their face etc sounds like assault to me. More likely the wimpy BBC thug should be in the dock.
Just tore apart the £93bn figure being bandied about by Corbyn's camp. It took less than two items to ridicule the "corporate subsidies" that Corbyn and his acolytes say is bad for the country.
Good post (in other words I agree). The desire of both inners and outers to have Cameron on their side is very strong. Some on here, such as Casino_Royale are practically offering him a sainthood if he cannot bring himself to argue for In. I think a lot of people in this country trust his judgement ahead of any other politician around today. Not the committed of course but the much more substantial its all a bit difficult crowd. If Cameron says we have a future outside the EU we do and we will very likely find out if he is right in due course.
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We need the negotiations and thus the referendum because the EU is changing with the creation of the Euro. The Greek crisis shows this in spades. We are not in the Euro and so our differences with the EU/Eurozone are clear and inevitable. Cameron said all this in 2013 (Feb I think). As for the result - it does not matter in respect of future govts. We can stay on or we can go out. A future govt can take any stance it wants if it thinks it can persuade/hoodwink the electorate. What is clear is we will have a referendum and everyone will have to think about the consequences of their vote in relation to the facts at the time. Just live with that and get on with something else, or as per the new (I think Horizon based) phrase, 'Suck it up'.
I have a vague idea I am being insulted but I don't really know why. At the risk of aggravating my folly I think it is obvious that the timing of the referendum is being driven by internal Tory politics than any specific choice we have to make. If it was not the obvious commitment would be to have an In/Out referendum on the next Treaty change. There will be no new Treaty by 2017. I agree with you (if this helps) that the Euro has changed the nature of the EU and, as non members, not necessarily to our advantage. I have said so many times.
I do not know where you get the idea you are being insulted - may be a smiley would have made things more clear. The timing of the referendum is being driven by the fact that it is needed because of the issue of the Eurozone. The renegotiations are needed because of the issues we face. They cannot be avoided whilst we sit on the sidelines, and the longer it goes on the less chance for any change As soon as they were announced all we got was kippers screaming like stuck pigs. But to clarify - we will get what we get and vote what we want with whatever consequences we might hope for. Is there any need for any more?
It's not an open goal because while there is clearly a problem, there is far less clearly any easy solution.
Indeed so. In addition to the points you mention, there's also the very practical problem that the housebuilding industry is already working flat out. There simply isn't any spare capacity at the moment; they are constrained by shortage of skilled labour and even shortage of materials including bricks. Increasing the supply of housing is going to take time.
Yes it will take time. I don't think Ed remotely worked this out. You can't just whistle up the materials, finance, skilled labour etc in the blink of an eye, hence his numerical targets by 2020 were just unrealistic. But we have to start somewhere, and I would've thought GO would like to go into the 2020 election with a steeply rising graph of construction.
Mr. Rabbit, isn't that only the case for red to blue?
Quentin Someone defected to Brown around 2007, and Sean Woodward[sp] did likewise a few years earlier (some chap called Cameron got his seat at the election).
Comments
Housing.
Agreed. For all of the lunacy that is Corbyn and his acolytes on most things there is a real issue here on housing which needs fixing, and the Govt needs to start to get a better grip.
Now Jezza in his instincts seems to want rent controls, compulsory purchases of private property at a discount, demonisation of private landlords (many of whom are trying get a return for their old age in a world where interest rates are sod all, and pensions are the smouldering ruin left by G Brown), combined with not much in the way of immigration controls which will of course tend to concentrate the problem even more in London and the S East, as I'm sure immigrants don't look at the map and alight on Salford, Llanelli, and Motherwell as places to build a life. It's a receipe for disaster as the population most rises in the "wrong places", people sell flats rather than have the Dear Leader decide the price of rents and have rafts of other regulations imposed. A temporary housing glut in certain sectors might ensue pushing prices down (all that negative equity appearing), which may help the better off renters closer to saving a deposit, but will then create shortages further down the scale as rented flats/houses disappear from the market.
However, that's not to say there is not a real live problem (particularly in London, where half a mill doesn't seem to buy you a decent family house anywhere you'd aspire to live - from my experience of the place at least - mostly the N West suburbs), and there must be insecurity for people trying, for example, to educate kids without longish tenure of housing, difficulty getting people to work in certain jobs, given the costs of accommodation in certain areas, and just the knock on effects on the economy where sections of the population are shelling out large percentages of income on rent/mortgages rather than other "stuff".
We simply have to increase supply and the Govt should be incentivising industry to expand big time, via tax breaks, less regulation (yes that's going to mean upsetting a few Tory nimbies here and there), less green belt, more "upwards" building (and hopefully avoiding the disasters of the 60's), and yes conceivably intervening to build more social housing in a targeted way. Finding a way of not having the population increase by nearly the population of Cardiff each year is also part of that equation.
It ain't easy at all, but we have to act.
A large number of billions coming to be spent in Spain every year would have no effect? I don't see that.
If you want to see the costs involved, consider that Frau Merkel has budgeted - what was it - 5+bn Euro for the first 800,000?
@mykkym1: I hope the constituents of Simon Danzcuk & John Woodcock are taking note of their behaviour & demand deselection http://t.co/Oqi0lVoTGR
Seems as though they are outrageous for the sake of being outrageous... That doesn't take much bravery or wisdom in my book
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/time-to-tear-up-the-refugee-convention/17436#disqus_thread
But I was thinking similar. The labour PLP wouldn't want to open the next election up to the members would they....
No bravery should be needed because those who don't like it don't need to read it. The bravery has only been required because people have chosen violence as a reaction. That's their choice - and a very bad choice it is too.
Another day of negative headlines for no gain
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."
As for the result - it does not matter in respect of future govts. We can stay on or we can go out. A future govt can take any stance it wants if it thinks it can persuade/hoodwink the electorate. What is clear is we will have a referendum and everyone will have to think about the consequences of their vote in relation to the facts at the time.
Just live with that and get on with something else, or as per the new (I think Horizon based) phrase, 'Suck it up'.
Either way it's not acceptable behaviour.
@JohnRentoul: Huge political opportunity for Lib Dems, with millions of centrist voters now homeless. Shame about Tim Farron.
I support their right to be offensive but I also have the right to be offended. They are making a point about western hypocrisy but...nah.
Someone (sorry for the lack of namecheck) suggested Hilary Benn as a unity option - he is in the Shadow Cabinet but was also in government under Blair and Brown. Of the current front bench, that's probably as good a shout as anyone though whether he'll be able to walk the tightrope of foreign policy with Corbyn as leader remains to be seen. If he doesn't, then he might still be an option providing he resigns rather than become excessively tainted.
elswhere
John Woodcock ✔ @JWoodcockMP
oh good grief. so people can "take to twitter" to urge to my party to deselect me, but I must not respond. Ok.
The thoughts of Chairman JohnO are always welcomed by the workers of Hersham and PB.
At the risk of aggravating my folly I think it is obvious that the timing of the referendum is being driven by internal Tory politics than any specific choice we have to make. If it was not the obvious commitment would be to have an In/Out referendum on the next Treaty change. There will be no new Treaty by 2017.
I agree with you (if this helps) that the Euro has changed the nature of the EU and, as non members, not necessarily to our advantage. I have said so many times.
More houses? Nimbys.
Less immigration? Easier said than done.
Rent controls? If big, then they may distort the market leading to a slump in prices, negative equity, forced termination of tenancies or a lack of maintenance. If small, then they'll make no difference.
More council housing? Funded how?
More sheltered housing? Probably needed and deliverable but only chipping at the problem.
Discourage foreign investment in the housing market? Impossible within the EU and already been tried to little effect for those outside it.
Labour MP with a pushed in face, getting pushed in even further by A Neil.
http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2015/09/quebec-hate-speech-law-will-target-people-who-would-write-against--the-islamic-religion
I wonder if he cried like Salmond and Sturgeon after the Referendum result. The wee bairns.
https://www.politicshome.com/foreign-and-defence/articles/story/labour-will-back-eu-membership-all-circumstances-benn
'But Mr Benn, who is remaining in post as Shadow Foreign Secretary, said this morning Mr Corbyn did not want to leave the EU.
“Jeremy said, whatever differences we may have with some aspects of European policy, whatever reforms we want to see, we will stay to fight together for a better Europe. It’s absolutely clear,” he told the Today programme.
Asked to confirm that this would be the case regardless of the renegotiation being undertaken by the Prime Minister, he said: “Under all circumstances.” '
You can sniff at this if you like but the article header and premise is bogus.
It's unacceptable for the press to be physically assault [as is alleged] by the entourage of a politician.
As you say, the PM is such a special case (whichever party he or she is from) that any comparison is pretty meaningless.
I'm seeing a connection here.
'He/she was asking for it'
A pretty shameful position to take.
https://twitter.com/journotom
It's an average of about one every two years.
On the plus side, better to do it quickly if it must be done, and Labour will finally get a better leader [the first improvement for decades].
This is political cover.
The EU has always been opposed to trade unions. It does not speak the language of solidarity, and its preferred models of workplace representation do not include them. Indeed a recent emphasis on an individual's right to consultation has the potential to completely outflank them.
Every time a piece of EU legislation is incorporated into English law, we write in trade union roles where there were none in the original. Now of course that is exactly what is supposed to happen; each country merges existing national structures and regimes with each EU directive. But it does demonstrate that trade unionism is considered a national anomaly, and not part of the EU structure itself.
https://youtu.be/tyNI7wmjS6s
Construction has too much of a cyclical nature. This happens every time there is a recession and then recovery, with skilled labour and material being in shortage once recovery begins. There must be a case for having the house building industry as a special case and having government support for the housing industry during recessions. It would need to be carefully controlled and defined however.
SNP and Labour link up looking more and more scary for English voters than ever. SNP continue to assist Tory Party. Thanks guys.
Neil's a top journalist.
Speaking of Neil's, though, has Mr. Neil taken a sabbatical from the site?
Mr. G, not sure wimpy and thug dovetail, to be honest...
Bercow: "There's an understandable air of anticipation in the chamber at this time, let's have a bit of order."
Well I'll believe it when I see it, but what a coup it would be.
Tory/Lab defections to each other are as rare as hen's teeth.
The timing of the referendum is being driven by the fact that it is needed because of the issue of the Eurozone. The renegotiations are needed because of the issues we face. They cannot be avoided whilst we sit on the sidelines, and the longer it goes on the less chance for any change
As soon as they were announced all we got was kippers screaming like stuck pigs.
But to clarify - we will get what we get and vote what we want with whatever consequences we might hope for. Is there any need for any more?
Quentin Someone defected to Brown around 2007, and Sean Woodward[sp] did likewise a few years earlier (some chap called Cameron got his seat at the election).
@David_Cameron job is to be respectful. No hint of arrogance, nothing that might rally Labour MPs behind leader. Let them stew, in short.