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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Guest slot: Corbyn represents something more than just Corb

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited September 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Guest slot: Corbyn represents something more than just Corbynmania

It’d be easy to laugh at Jeremy Corbyn’s unsteady progress over the last few days.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,218
    edited September 2015
    JICIPM!
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Another rubbishy thread on C. Phewy!!!
  • How come TSE can write in big letters?! No fair!
  • Congrats on getting Glen to write for PB. His longer piece on Corbyn is also well worth reading.

    http://publicpolicypast.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/the-wrongness-of-corbynism.html
  • Congrats on getting Glen to write for PB. His longer piece on Corbyn is also well worth reading.

    http://publicpolicypast.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/the-wrongness-of-corbynism.html

    Glen has an impressive CV, his knowledge of history is nearly as impressive as mine.

    http://www.history.brookes.ac.uk/People/Academic/prof.asp?ID=600

    Was a real pleasure to ask him to write a piece for PB.
  • Why should we take Labourites seriously when they can't take themselves seriously?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,637
    Another #SAVECORBYN thread ?

  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 6,658
    Good article. Corbyn is transient, but the issues that gave rise to him - and Bernie Sanders and Ben Carson and Donald Trump - are not.

    Strong echoes of the article I posted yesterday in the WSJ:

    http://www.wsj.com/article_email/britains-unsettling-omen-1442272191-lMyQjAxMTI1NDE3NTMxMTU5Wj
  • TGOHF said:

    Another #SAVECORBYN thread ?

    No, no! It's

    #DUJCA
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,125
    I think there's a good deal of truth in this article. There are a lot of people out there who agree with Corbyn.

    But:-

    1. There aren't enough of them. Most people aren't radical socialists;

    2. Plenty of people are disgusted by the current system, but are radical right, rather than radical left.

    3. Social media are absolutely not indicative of the public as a whole.

  • The real reason that people voted for Corbyn was the failure of the pollsters in May. Bear with me...

    The polls in May made it look like Labour could win control of gov (either directly or with the SNP).

    The loss, when it came, was therefore far more devastating to those on the Left, than if they had been expecting to lose.

    Therefore they are angry, and voting for Corbyn is a "get back at you" response that have control over.

    Silly, angry, and ultimately damaging to the Labour party. But you can blame the pollsters...

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Like it or not, Corbyn has changed the rules.
  • TGOHF said:

    Another #SAVECORBYN thread ?

    Well we have to make the most of the opportunity - he won't last forever.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 2,717
    edited September 2015
    "They found it in an obscure MP who had already served his constituency for over thirty years, but they might just as easily have latched onto another cause. It was partly happenstance. They think little of the traditional party structures and loyalties of yesteryear, as we saw when so many of them were confused about why they had been excluded from Labour’s vote – for supporting, or even paying for, Green or other candidates."

    I think this is true from my interactions with Corbynistas. They could just have easily as been Abottonians or McDonnellites. And plenty saw themselves as "socialist" or "leftie" or "radical" first, and "Labour" (if at all) very much second.

  • The real reason that people voted for Corbyn was the failure of the pollsters in May. Bear with me...

    The polls in May made it look like Labour could win control of gov (either directly or with the SNP).

    The loss, when it came, was therefore far more devastating to those on the Left, than if they had been expecting to lose.

    Therefore they are angry, and voting for Corbyn is a "get back at you" response that have control over.

    Silly, angry, and ultimately damaging to the Labour party. But you can blame the pollsters...

    Don't give up the day job :)
  • Sean_F said:

    I think there's a good deal of truth in this article. There are a lot of people out there who agree with Corbyn.

    But:-

    1. There aren't enough of them. Most people aren't radical socialists;

    2. Plenty of people are disgusted by the current system, but are radical right, rather than radical left.

    3. Social media are absolutely not indicative of the public as a whole.

    Social media or Socialist media?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,637
    surbiton said:

    Like it or not, Corbyn has changed the rules.

    I read this repeatedly about Gordo and Ed.

    Another duffer selected by Labour who can't win a GE - toast today, mould tomorrow.

  • Was thinking over a lunchtime swim about PMQs. The 2 main things I took away are:

    - Corbyn came across as very reasonable, almost grandfatherly, which will blunt any Tories attacks saying he his dangerous
    - On the other hand he wasn't particularly effective. His questions were far too wordy and I am already struggling to remember what they were about. MacNeil's attack was much shorter and more effective.

    It is fine for Corbyn to be reasonable but he needs to be much more forensic and to the point, if he is going to land any blows.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,143
    surbiton said:

    Like it or not, Corbyn has changed the rules.

    In what way? He ignores the media until he doesn't. He won't sing the anthem until he will. He hides behind a human shield at questions, which won't last. He won't bend the knee to the queen, until he does. What has he changed?
  • Superb article Glen. Lots of good points to chew over.
  • DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,077
    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a good deal of truth in this article. There are a lot of people out there who agree with Corbyn.

    But:-

    1. There aren't enough of them. Most people aren't radical socialists;

    2. Plenty of people are disgusted by the current system, but are radical right, rather than radical left.

    3. Social media are absolutely not indicative of the public as a whole.

    Anti-establishment politics moves beyond old fashioned notions of left and right. In fact there's a great deal of convergence.
  • surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
    She is clearly trying to make a name for herself - in the hope of getting more work/attention. I can imagine many, many people will make sure that she is not engaged on any cases they are seeking to bring.

    Her media performances clearly show she is not an advocate of any quality. Who is going to employ a barrister with such an obvious chip on her shoulder, someone who is going to push their own agenda rather than representing you effectively?

    Her professional career has been damaged by this. And the fault for that is all hers - not the person who made the comments about her online profile.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,604
    surbiton said:

    Like it or not, Corbyn has changed the rules.

    No, he really hasn't. But he has surrounded himself with people who think he has.

    Political gravity is going to be a bitch.
  • Someone talked about PMQs being boring. Now perhaps do you see why no-one has had a proper crack at trying to change things? Dull and worthy is going to get duller and worthier rather rapidly.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2015
    An interesting thread Professor O’Hara – I don’t think the fanaticism of the Corbynites is underestimated, or their ability to keep him in office until GE2020, the issue is whether Jeremy Corbyn can appeal to the wider electorate and win the next general election and the simple answer is he cannot.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    MTimT said:

    malcolmg said:


    LOL. yes that will be read widely in Scotland. Typical southern rag.

    I worry for Scotland if malcolmg is representative. Rather than address bad news on literacy and availability of higher education to the poor - which of course will not affect the average person on the street as they have already completed their education, he'd prefer to mock a newspaper because it's English.

    That is one huge chip to be carrying around.
    there's no chip, Loyalists are trying to jump on an Outrage Bus which doesn't exist in the minds of people in Scotland.

    Is there a problem in Scottish education? Probably not, there's some variation in results but absolutely no child has left Primary School who has spent their education under a majority SNP government. No child has left High School who has spent their education under any SNP government.

    Education is a long term project. the new Curriculum for Excellence which is only being implemented began its process over TEN years ago. If there is a problem - and it is by no means clear that there is, then it's going to be another ten years before anything the SNP do today will become apparent.

    More importantly, to the public simply not an issue and when the alternative is SLAB, the SNP look like the only logical choice.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,125

    surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
    She is clearly trying to make a name for herself - in the hope of getting more work/attention. I can imagine many, many people will make sure that she is not engaged on any cases they are seeking to bring.

    Her media performances clearly show she is not an advocate of any quality. Who is going to employ a barrister with such an obvious chip on her shoulder, someone who is going to push their own agenda rather than representing you effectively?

    Her professional career has been damaged by this. And the fault for that is all hers - not the person who made the comments about her online profile.
    I would not wish to instruct someone who displays such bad judgement.
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    edited September 2015
    surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.

    reminds me of the scene between Harvey Keitel and his girlfriend in Mean Streets when she asks why he won't settle down
  • Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
    She is clearly trying to make a name for herself - in the hope of getting more work/attention. I can imagine many, many people will make sure that she is not engaged on any cases they are seeking to bring.

    Her media performances clearly show she is not an advocate of any quality. Who is going to employ a barrister with such an obvious chip on her shoulder, someone who is going to push their own agenda rather than representing you effectively?

    Her professional career has been damaged by this. And the fault for that is all hers - not the person who made the comments about her online profile.
    I would not wish to instruct someone who displays such bad judgement.
    And you will be far from alone in that. Reputation at the bar is EVERYTHING.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited September 2015
    surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
    I know a number of female lawyers who won't instruct her on the basis of her behaviour, and judgement. They won't be alone.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,839
    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a good deal of truth in this article. There are a lot of people out there who agree with Corbyn.

    But:-

    1. There aren't enough of them. Most people aren't radical socialists;

    2. Plenty of people are disgusted by the current system, but are radical right, rather than radical left.

    3. Social media are absolutely not indicative of the public as a whole.

    I think the point of the article is not so much that people agree with Corbyn but that they disagree materially with business as usual and politics as it has developed in most of the western world. In other word Corbyn's success is a symptom of the underlying condition not a solution.

    I agree up to a point. The problem with the issues of the world today is that they are very complicated. Take the example of housing that we were discussing in previous threads today. Everyone agrees there is a major problem but there is almost no consensus on the causes of the problem, let alone the solutions. Experts in the field can happily and legitimately disagree with each other all day long.

    The result of this complexity is an increasing alienation of ever more of our population from not only politics but broader issues of public policy. Most just switch off but a significant number look for simplicities and sweeping assertions which do not get bogged down in the detail. The likes of Corbyn provides these but the consequence is that his support is facile and febrile.

    My reservation is whether it is really true that issues used to be simpler or whether we simply had politicians who were better than the current crop at building a coherent narrative. My suspicion is that it is the latter. Politicians who have been brought up in the soundbite world seem almost incapable of thinking in complete sentences, let alone paragraphs, despite being very bright.
  • surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
    She is clearly trying to make a name for herself - in the hope of getting more work/attention. I can imagine many, many people will make sure that she is not engaged on any cases they are seeking to bring.

    Her media performances clearly show she is not an advocate of any quality. Who is going to employ a barrister with such an obvious chip on her shoulder, someone who is going to push their own agenda rather than representing you effectively?

    Her professional career has been damaged by this. And the fault for that is all hers - not the person who made the comments about her online profile.
    Well, I wouldn't brief her. Regardless of her opinions she's already established herself as indiscreet, a grandstander, and already known to the judiciary for all the wrong reasons. And there are so many other capable junior juniors out there, why take the risk?

    No doubt a glittering career in the media beckons though.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,839
    @politicshome: Tory MP considers infiltrating Corbyn's PMQs' crowdsourcing http://t.co/6ECWaTtwto http://t.co/Gr37PEN9n2

    I have a question from Dave in Witney...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,125

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
    She is clearly trying to make a name for herself - in the hope of getting more work/attention. I can imagine many, many people will make sure that she is not engaged on any cases they are seeking to bring.

    Her media performances clearly show she is not an advocate of any quality. Who is going to employ a barrister with such an obvious chip on her shoulder, someone who is going to push their own agenda rather than representing you effectively?

    Her professional career has been damaged by this. And the fault for that is all hers - not the person who made the comments about her online profile.
    I would not wish to instruct someone who displays such bad judgement.
    And you will be far from alone in that. Reputation at the bar is EVERYTHING.
    If I instructed a barrister, I would expect her to represent my client's interests to the best of her ability. With Claire Proudman, I'd be concerned that my client's interests would take second place to her politics.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Scott_P said:

    @politicshome: Tory MP considers infiltrating Corbyn's PMQs' crowdsourcing http://t.co/6ECWaTtwto http://t.co/Gr37PEN9n2

    I have a question from Dave in Witney...

    And Osama in Tora Bora.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I have a question from Dave in Witney...

    Just read a funny one from 'Tony in Onslow Square....'
  • surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
    She is clearly trying to make a name for herself - in the hope of getting more work/attention. I can imagine many, many people will make sure that she is not engaged on any cases they are seeking to bring.

    Her media performances clearly show she is not an advocate of any quality. Who is going to employ a barrister with such an obvious chip on her shoulder, someone who is going to push their own agenda rather than representing you effectively?

    Her professional career has been damaged by this. And the fault for that is all hers - not the person who made the comments about her online profile.
    Well, I wouldn't brief her. Regardless of her opinions she's already established herself as indiscreet, a grandstander, and already known to the judiciary for all the wrong reasons. And there are so many other capable junior juniors out there, why take the risk?

    No doubt a glittering career in the media beckons though.
    It doesn't - because she is a woeful media performer.

    She might write a few opinion pieces before slinking back into insignificance.
  • "Corbyn speaks for, and to, a great big slice of Britain"

    But does he? That's the key question. Or does he just speak for, and to, a loud one. For now.

    "Hence the appeal of Corbyn’s apparently home-spun rhetoric"

    But isn't that intrinsically linked to the shambles of his first week? There's a reason why the professional greasy pole climbers act, speak and look like they do: Corbyn's just proved it by contradiction.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,492
    edited September 2015
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
    She is clearly trying to make a name for herself - in the hope of getting more work/attention. I can imagine many, many people will make sure that she is not engaged on any cases they are seeking to bring.

    Her media performances clearly show she is not an advocate of any quality. Who is going to employ a barrister with such an obvious chip on her shoulder, someone who is going to push their own agenda rather than representing you effectively?

    Her professional career has been damaged by this. And the fault for that is all hers - not the person who made the comments about her online profile.
    I would not wish to instruct someone who displays such bad judgement.
    And you will be far from alone in that. Reputation at the bar is EVERYTHING.
    If I instructed a barrister, I would expect her to represent my client's interests to the best of her ability. With Claire Proudman, I'd be concerned that my client's interests would take second place to her politics.
    She will get teased mercilessy, she is very foolish. Any guy who meets her not in work is going to compliment her legs, her looks and her other " attributes", just in order to annoy her.
  • surbiton said:

    Like it or not, Corbyn has changed the rules.

    No, he really hasn't. But he has surrounded himself with people who think he has.

    Political gravity is going to be a bitch.
    Correct. Of course he has not changed the rules. He stands up and he asks questions. And I think the word you are looking for is gravitas.
  • "Corbyn speaks for, and to, a great big slice of Britain"

    But does he? That's the key question. Or does he just speak for, and to, a loud one. For now.

    "Hence the appeal of Corbyn’s apparently home-spun rhetoric"

    But isn't that intrinsically linked to the shambles of his first week? There's a reason why the professional greasy pole climbers act, speak and look like they do: Corbyn's just proved it by contradiction.

    For me his 'home-spun rhetoric' was just rambling and utterly lacking in focus. It reinforces rather than challenges the negative perception that is building up about him.

    And as for his questions from 'real' people... well I am not sure I buy it. Anyone can come up with a name to attach to a given question. Even 'honest' Jeremy Corbyn.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 6,658
    DanSmith said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think there's a good deal of truth in this article. There are a lot of people out there who agree with Corbyn.

    But:-

    1. There aren't enough of them. Most people aren't radical socialists;

    2. Plenty of people are disgusted by the current system, but are radical right, rather than radical left.

    3. Social media are absolutely not indicative of the public as a whole.

    Anti-establishment politics moves beyond old fashioned notions of left and right. In fact there's a great deal of convergence.
    LOL 'Old-fashioned notions of left and right' were old-fashioned and inappropriate when I was a kid. Nothing new about that. Plus ca change ....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,990
    I've been working all morning, and haven't had a chance to follow what's being going on. How was PMQs?
  • surbiton said:

    Like it or not, Corbyn has changed the rules.

    No, he really hasn't. But he has surrounded himself with people who think he has.

    Political gravity is going to be a bitch.
    Correct. Of course he has not changed the rules. He stands up and he asks questions. And I think the word you are looking for is gravitas.
    No, gravity.

    The fall from power will be very hard. And probably even harder for his current loud supporters to deal with.

    Corbyn will never have political gravitas. Ever.
  • MikeK said:

    That is terrifying.

    And I say that as someone who is happy to have seen the back of 1970s sexism.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited September 2015

    "Corbyn speaks for, and to, a great big slice of Britain"

    But does he? That's the key question. Or does he just speak for, and to, a loud one. For now.

    "Hence the appeal of Corbyn’s apparently home-spun rhetoric"

    But isn't that intrinsically linked to the shambles of his first week? There's a reason why the professional greasy pole climbers act, speak and look like they do: Corbyn's just proved it by contradiction.

    For me his 'home-spun rhetoric' was just rambling and utterly lacking in focus. It reinforces rather than challenges the negative perception that is building up about him.

    And as for his questions from 'real' people... well I am not sure I buy it. Anyone can come up with a name to attach to a given question. Even 'honest' Jeremy Corbyn.
    Indeed. As if 40,000 people suggested the same question.

    I bet most of the emails he received were simply insults towards Cameron, in the guise of 'questions'.

    I wonder if 'Michael Green' wrote in?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    She will get teased mercilessly, she is very foolish.

    'put the kettle on luv, Milk and two sugars...'

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,918
    Mr Corbyn has had an email from a Mr Punch congratulating him on clearing his good name.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,037
    Just dropping into say hello to you shambolic bunch of lovable misguided buffoons! It's all quite fun at the mo isn't it, imagine the suicide inducing dullness if we had burnham or cooper mouthing their meaningless robotic platitudes to look forward to for the next five years.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,839
    rcs1000 said:

    I've been working all morning, and haven't had a chance to follow what's being going on. How was PMQs?

    And insofar as PMQs ever reaches the voters, Mr Corbyn’s approach carries another risk. By making himself into the spokesman for those who email him, he also risks letting their concerns define him. In effect, he may appear to be the parliamentary representative of welfare claimants, social housing tenants and other members of the vulnerable groups he says should be heard in politics. And in principle, he’s got a point: Parliament should reflect the country as a whole and its views. But in terms of brutal party politics, presenting Labour as the party of welfare recipients et al is exactly what the Conservatives want; Mr Corbyn’s approach risks doing Mr Cameron’s job for him.

    Given all that, the PM did the right thing. All he needs to do to win is match Mr Corbyn’s earnest tone then sit back to watch the Labour lead reap the consequences of his worthy but ultimately limited strategy.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/pmqs/11868946/James-Kirkup-Jeremy-Corbyn-played-for-a-draw-and-thats-just-fine-for-David-Cameron.html
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
    She is clearly trying to make a name for herself - in the hope of getting more work/attention. I can imagine many, many people will make sure that she is not engaged on any cases they are seeking to bring.

    Her media performances clearly show she is not an advocate of any quality. Who is going to employ a barrister with such an obvious chip on her shoulder, someone who is going to push their own agenda rather than representing you effectively?

    Her professional career has been damaged by this. And the fault for that is all hers - not the person who made the comments about her online profile.
    I would not wish to instruct someone who displays such bad judgement.
    And you will be far from alone in that. Reputation at the bar is EVERYTHING.
    If I instructed a barrister, I would expect her to represent my client's interests to the best of her ability. With Claire Proudman, I'd be concerned that my client's interests would take second place to her politics.
    She will get teased mercilessy, she is very foolish. Any guy who meets her not in work is going to compliment her legs, her looks and her other " attributes", just in order to annoy her.
    If only Evan Davis would have called her 'luv' or 'darling' just for a laugh
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,839
    @JohnRentoul: #PMQs review: Corbyn promised powerful opposition to the Tories – this wasn’t it @IndyVoices http://t.co/iNrljqggpv http://t.co/knCeCIzATn
  • SunnyJim said:

    MikeK said:

    That is terrifying.

    And I say that as someone who is happy to have seen the back of 1970s sexism.
    she seems about as cheery as the atmosphere at Chelsea's training ground.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2015
    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: #PMQs review: Corbyn promised powerful opposition to the Tories – this wasn’t it @IndyVoices http://t.co/iNrljqggpv http://t.co/knCeCIzATn

    Indeed - And in the words of Mark Wallace: - Only Jeremy Corbyn could radically change something to make it more bland.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 18,218
    edited September 2015
    Yes, good article. Even in conventional terms, Corbyn's mandate was so overwhelming - including amongst full party members, and even pre-2010 party members - that it will be hard for MPs to ditch him, even if they had an easy means and could agree on who they want to put in his place.

    One thing, though, I'd take issue with - is it really true that there is an unusual amount of rage and anger at the moment? OK, amongst the die-hard lefties, sure, but then they are always angry that the world won't bend to fit their ideology. But, compared with much of the last fifty years, mostly people seem pretty content: the economy is good, unemployment is fairly low, wages are rising now, the government is competent, scare stories about public services aren't borne out either by reality or by the occasional polls measuring satisfaction, and so on. Of course there are major issues and concerns - immigration, housing, the EU, the refugee crisis - but there's never been a time when there haven't been things to be concerned about. Twitter, Comment is Free, the Telegraph ranting pages, and even politicalbetting.com are not representative of the population at large. We should be careful not to be misled by a self-selected group of the strident and the malcontent.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,839
    Then Nigel Dodds, leader of the Democratic Unionist Party in Parliament, a powerful speaker, asked the Prime Minister to join him in condemning John McDonnell, Corbyn’s shadow chancellor, for saying we should be “honouring” the IRA.

    That question and Cameron’s dignified and heartfelt answer – one of his first experiences in politics was to write a speech for Ian Gow, murdered by an IRA car bomb – are devastating for Corbyn’s reputation. The voters of Middle Britain will never tolerate someone who makes excuses for terrorists.

    He got through PMQs today. But he will not make it to the next general election.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/prime-ministers-questions-corbyn-promised-powerful-opposition-to-the-tories--this-wasnt-it-10503512.html
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,604
    Scott_P said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I've been working all morning, and haven't had a chance to follow what's being going on. How was PMQs?

    And insofar as PMQs ever reaches the voters, Mr Corbyn’s approach carries another risk. By making himself into the spokesman for those who email him, he also risks letting their concerns define him. In effect, he may appear to be the parliamentary representative of welfare claimants, social housing tenants and other members of the vulnerable groups he says should be heard in politics. And in principle, he’s got a point: Parliament should reflect the country as a whole and its views. But in terms of brutal party politics, presenting Labour as the party of welfare recipients et al is exactly what the Conservatives want; Mr Corbyn’s approach risks doing Mr Cameron’s job for him.

    Given all that, the PM did the right thing. All he needs to do to win is match Mr Corbyn’s earnest tone then sit back to watch the Labour lead reap the consequences of his worthy but ultimately limited strategy.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/pmqs/11868946/James-Kirkup-Jeremy-Corbyn-played-for-a-draw-and-thats-just-fine-for-David-Cameron.html

    I'm tempted to e-mail Corbyn about his position on tiger importation rules....
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 6,658
    Dair said:

    MTimT said:

    malcolmg said:


    LOL. yes that will be read widely in Scotland. Typical southern rag.

    I worry for Scotland if malcolmg is representative. Rather than address bad news on literacy and availability of higher education to the poor - which of course will not affect the average person on the street as they have already completed their education, he'd prefer to mock a newspaper because it's English.

    That is one huge chip to be carrying around.
    there's no chip, Loyalists are trying to jump on an Outrage Bus which doesn't exist in the minds of people in Scotland.

    Is there a problem in Scottish education? Probably not, there's some variation in results but absolutely no child has left Primary School who has spent their education under a majority SNP government. No child has left High School who has spent their education under any SNP government.

    Education is a long term project. the new Curriculum for Excellence which is only being implemented began its process over TEN years ago. If there is a problem - and it is by no means clear that there is, then it's going to be another ten years before anything the SNP do today will become apparent.

    More importantly, to the public simply not an issue and when the alternative is SLAB, the SNP look like the only logical choice.
    Dair, thanks for the reasoned response. I am now better informed.

    It is not an issue for which I have any skin in the game. FWIW, I supported Scottish independence if that is what the people want. And in any case, it's in everyone's interest for Scotland to be successful regardless of its decision on independence.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,382

    Scott_P said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I've been working all morning, and haven't had a chance to follow what's being going on. How was PMQs?

    And insofar as PMQs ever reaches the voters, Mr Corbyn’s approach carries another risk. By making himself into the spokesman for those who email him, he also risks letting their concerns define him. In effect, he may appear to be the parliamentary representative of welfare claimants, social housing tenants and other members of the vulnerable groups he says should be heard in politics. And in principle, he’s got a point: Parliament should reflect the country as a whole and its views. But in terms of brutal party politics, presenting Labour as the party of welfare recipients et al is exactly what the Conservatives want; Mr Corbyn’s approach risks doing Mr Cameron’s job for him.

    Given all that, the PM did the right thing. All he needs to do to win is match Mr Corbyn’s earnest tone then sit back to watch the Labour lead reap the consequences of his worthy but ultimately limited strategy.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/pmqs/11868946/James-Kirkup-Jeremy-Corbyn-played-for-a-draw-and-thats-just-fine-for-David-Cameron.html
    I'm tempted to e-mail Corbyn about his position on tiger importation rules....

    Claws 4?

    I'll get me coat....
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,492
    edited September 2015
    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
    She is clearly trying to make a name for herself - in the hope of getting more work/attention. I can imagine many, many people will make sure that she is not engaged on any cases they are seeking to bring.

    Her media performances clearly show she is not an advocate of any quality. Who is going to employ a barrister with such an obvious chip on her shoulder, someone who is going to push their own agenda rather than representing you effectively?

    Her professional career has been damaged by this. And the fault for that is all hers - not the person who made the comments about her online profile.
    I would not wish to instruct someone who displays such bad judgement.
    And you will be far from alone in that. Reputation at the bar is EVERYTHING.
    If I instructed a barrister, I would expect her to represent my client's interests to the best of her ability. With Claire Proudman, I'd be concerned that my client's interests would take second place to her politics.
    She will get teased mercilessy, she is very foolish. Any guy who meets her not in work is going to compliment her legs, her looks and her other " attributes", just in order to annoy her.
    If only Evan Davis would have called her 'luv' or 'darling' just for a laugh

    You can just see it happening, bloke walks past "nice tits darling" .

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,604
    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
    She is clearly trying to make a name for herself - in the hope of getting more work/attention. I can imagine many, many people will make sure that she is not engaged on any cases they are seeking to bring.

    Her media performances clearly show she is not an advocate of any quality. Who is going to employ a barrister with such an obvious chip on her shoulder, someone who is going to push their own agenda rather than representing you effectively?

    Her professional career has been damaged by this. And the fault for that is all hers - not the person who made the comments about her online profile.
    I would not wish to instruct someone who displays such bad judgement.
    And you will be far from alone in that. Reputation at the bar is EVERYTHING.
    If I instructed a barrister, I would expect her to represent my client's interests to the best of her ability. With Claire Proudman, I'd be concerned that my client's interests would take second place to her politics.
    She will get teased mercilessy, she is very foolish. Any guy who meets her not in work is going to compliment her legs, her looks and her other " attributes", just in order to annoy her.
    If only Evan Davis would have called her 'luv' or 'darling' just for a laugh
    If he had, could she take offence, knowing he is gay?

    I think she would't have had any difficulty. She probably has an even bigger issue with ridicule than sexism.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,495

    Was thinking over a lunchtime swim about PMQs. The 2 main things I took away are:
    - Corbyn came across as very reasonable, almost grandfatherly, which will blunt any Tories attacks saying he his dangerous
    - On the other hand he wasn't particularly effective. His questions were far too wordy and I am already struggling to remember what they were about. MacNeil's attack was much shorter and more effective.
    It is fine for Corbyn to be reasonable but he needs to be much more forensic and to the point, if he is going to land any blows.

    Perhaps, at this stage, he is trying to come across to the public as reasonable and grandfatherly????? And not in the least dangerous?????

    Does he need to land blows at this stage?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,604

    surbiton said:

    Like it or not, Corbyn has changed the rules.

    No, he really hasn't. But he has surrounded himself with people who think he has.

    Political gravity is going to be a bitch.
    Correct. Of course he has not changed the rules. He stands up and he asks questions. And I think the word you are looking for is gravitas.
    No, gravity. When they all come down with a bump.
  • Mr Glen (writer for the Independent) O'Hara is so perceptive that he thought the tories electoral strength was overstated before the last election and the coalition were cutting spending too quickly.
    It does not take a self styled academic genius to tell us that events might happen.
    How much did he get right on this
    http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2014/11/26/british-politics-is-heading-back-to-1974/
    or this
    http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2013/09/14/labour-in-dire-trouble-electoral-history-tells-a-more-nuanced-story/

    History man? Looking back is not doing him much good.
    Stick to the coffee shops of Headington Mr O'Hara if you want to see how the world is changing.
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    Good article. The guy's an absolute phenomenon. Incredible.

    It might just be happenstance, but by heck he's got authenticity in spades. I defy anyone to look at this photo and deny the man's integrity.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/01/fan-catches-jeremy-corbyn-looking-gloomy-on-night-bus

    I'm actually beginning to fall in love with him, and I'm not kidding.
  • Congrats on getting Glen to write for PB. His longer piece on Corbyn is also well worth reading.

    http://publicpolicypast.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/the-wrongness-of-corbynism.html

    Glen has an impressive CV, his knowledge of history is nearly as impressive as mine.

    http://www.history.brookes.ac.uk/People/Academic/prof.asp?ID=600

    Was a real pleasure to ask him to write a piece for PB.
    Nope. He is an idiot.
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558



    One thing, though, I'd take issue with - is it really true that there is an unusual amount of rage and anger at the moment?

    Yes there really is. Incandescent rage. Masses of it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,604
    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I've been working all morning, and haven't had a chance to follow what's being going on. How was PMQs?

    And insofar as PMQs ever reaches the voters, Mr Corbyn’s approach carries another risk. By making himself into the spokesman for those who email him, he also risks letting their concerns define him. In effect, he may appear to be the parliamentary representative of welfare claimants, social housing tenants and other members of the vulnerable groups he says should be heard in politics. And in principle, he’s got a point: Parliament should reflect the country as a whole and its views. But in terms of brutal party politics, presenting Labour as the party of welfare recipients et al is exactly what the Conservatives want; Mr Corbyn’s approach risks doing Mr Cameron’s job for him.

    Given all that, the PM did the right thing. All he needs to do to win is match Mr Corbyn’s earnest tone then sit back to watch the Labour lead reap the consequences of his worthy but ultimately limited strategy.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/pmqs/11868946/James-Kirkup-Jeremy-Corbyn-played-for-a-draw-and-thats-just-fine-for-David-Cameron.html
    I'm tempted to e-mail Corbyn about his position on tiger importation rules....
    Claws 4?

    I'll get me coat....

    Can you get me a cloth to clean the soft drink off the computer screen before you go....?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I think the odd Claire Proudman is a price worth paying for what things used to be like.

    I remember being at lunch in the City and being dumbfounded when a man at another table casually asked a rather fulsome female colleague as she got up to leave....'so, are you taking your t8ts back to the office then..??'

    This was the early 1990s.
  • watford30 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @politicshome: Tory MP considers infiltrating Corbyn's PMQs' crowdsourcing http://t.co/6ECWaTtwto http://t.co/Gr37PEN9n2

    I have a question from Dave in Witney...

    And Osama in Tora Bora.
    You reckon he's still alive?
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558

    But, compared with much of the last fifty years, mostly people seem pretty content:

    Christ. You haven't got a clue! Go and talk to teachers, health workers, people trying to get on the housing ladder, students not to mention people forced to use food banks, pound shops, wonga dealers ... the list could go on.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Does he need to land blows at this stage?

    Given what has allegedly happened outside his house, a rather unfortunate choice of phrase
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,894
    watford30 said:

    surbiton said:

    MikeK said:
    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.

    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.
    I know a number of female lawyers who won't instruct her on the basis of her behaviour, and judgement. They won't be alone.
    Assume you have been a client of those lawyers and they confided in you, the alternative is too horrific to imagine.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,839
    Estobar said:

    It might just be happenstance, but by heck he's got authenticity in spades.

    @JohnRentoul: Absolutely nothing on Twitter from Corbyn supporters explaining why he was right not to sing yesterday and right to sing in future.

    Is that an "authentic" u-turn? An "authentic" betrayal of republican principles?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 6,658
    Estobar said:

    Good article. The guy's an absolute phenomenon. Incredible.

    It might just be happenstance, but by heck he's got authenticity in spades. I defy anyone to look at this photo and deny the man's integrity.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/01/fan-catches-jeremy-corbyn-looking-gloomy-on-night-bus

    I'm actually beginning to fall in love with him, and I'm not kidding.

    OK, now I'm thinking you are really a troll, having fun by posing as a leftie.
  • Estobar said:

    But, compared with much of the last fifty years, mostly people seem pretty content:

    Christ. You haven't got a clue! Go and talk to teachers, health workers, people trying to get on the housing ladder, students not to mention people forced to use food banks, pound shops, wonga dealers ... the list could go on.
    Where were all these outraged citizens last May ?
  • Estobar said:

    But, compared with much of the last fifty years, mostly people seem pretty content:

    Christ. You haven't got a clue! Go and talk to teachers, health workers, people trying to get on the housing ladder, students not to mention people forced to use food banks, pound shops, wonga dealers ... the list could go on.
    If only we could have some sort of national election to gauge the popularity of the Tories versus Labour?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''OK, now I'm thinking you are really a troll, having fun by posing as a leftie. ''

    Yes the mask may have slipped with the last sentence of that post...
  • Estobar said:

    But, compared with much of the last fifty years, mostly people seem pretty content:

    Christ. You haven't got a clue! Go and talk to teachers, health workers, people trying to get on the housing ladder, students not to mention people forced to use food banks, pound shops, wonga dealers ... the list could go on.
    I'm sure it could. But you don't seem to have understood my question. Is there any reason to imagine that the list is longer, or the 'anger' more intense, than at lots of other periods in the last half-century? Because I'm old enough to remember that half-century, and to be perfectly honest the 'rage', even on the left, seems to me to be rather synthetic at the moment.
  • "Corbyn speaks for, and to, a great big slice of Britain"

    But does he? That's the key question. Or does he just speak for, and to, a loud one. For now.

    "Hence the appeal of Corbyn’s apparently home-spun rhetoric"

    But isn't that intrinsically linked to the shambles of his first week? There's a reason why the professional greasy pole climbers act, speak and look like they do: Corbyn's just proved it by contradiction.

    For me his 'home-spun rhetoric' was just rambling and utterly lacking in focus. It reinforces rather than challenges the negative perception that is building up about him.

    And as for his questions from 'real' people... well I am not sure I buy it. Anyone can come up with a name to attach to a given question. Even 'honest' Jeremy Corbyn.
    I don't doubt that they were genuine questions put by genuine people. From what I've heard - and this is all second-hand to me - it was too disjointed to have been pure invention. But being genuine is not of itself enough to be effective.
  • Estobar said:



    One thing, though, I'd take issue with - is it really true that there is an unusual amount of rage and anger at the moment?

    Yes there really is. Incandescent rage. Masses of it.
    Impotent, infantile rage. From a very small minority of very loud people.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Rocks and bricks thrown at riot police on Hungarian border as migrants try to break through.

    Tear gas, pepper spray and water cannon offered in response...
  • Congrats on getting Glen to write for PB. His longer piece on Corbyn is also well worth reading.

    http://publicpolicypast.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/the-wrongness-of-corbynism.html

    Glen has an impressive CV, his knowledge of history is nearly as impressive as mine.

    http://www.history.brookes.ac.uk/People/Academic/prof.asp?ID=600

    Was a real pleasure to ask him to write a piece for PB.
    Nope. He is an idiot.
    Whereas the most intelligent contribution to ever come out of you left a brown stain on the toilet bowl.
  • Yes, good article. Even in conventional terms, Corbyn's mandate was so overwhelming - including amongst full party members, and even pre-2010 party members - that it will be hard for MPs to ditch him, even if they had an easy means and could agree on who they want to put in his place.

    One thing, though, I'd take issue with - is it really true that there is an unusual amount of rage and anger at the moment? OK, amongst the die-hard lefties, sure, but then they are always angry that the world won't bend to fit their ideology. But, compared with much of the last fifty years, mostly people seem pretty content: the economy is good, unemployment is fairly low, wages are rising now, the government is competent, scare stories about public services aren't borne out either by reality or by the occasional polls measuring satisfaction, and so on. Of course there are major issues and concerns - immigration, housing, the EU, the refugee crisis - but there's never been a time when there haven't been things to be concerned about. Twitter, Comment is Free, the Telegraph ranting pages, and even politicalbetting.com are not representative of the population at large. We should be careful not to be misled by a self-selected group of the strident and the malcontent.

    Yup, and if Labour members were really unhappy with the government they'd have proritised getting rid of it. What they're telling us is that ultimately, they don't think a Tory government is too bad.
  • surbiton said:

    Like it or not, Corbyn has changed the rules.

    No, he really hasn't. But he has surrounded himself with people who think he has.

    Political gravity is going to be a bitch.
    Correct. Of course he has not changed the rules. He stands up and he asks questions. And I think the word you are looking for is gravitas.
    No, gravity. When they all come down with a bump.
    "See, madness, as you know, is like gravity: all it takes is a little push!"
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,366
    edited September 2015

    Estobar said:

    But, compared with much of the last fifty years, mostly people seem pretty content:

    Christ. You haven't got a clue! Go and talk to teachers, health workers, people trying to get on the housing ladder, students not to mention people forced to use food banks, pound shops, wonga dealers ... the list could go on.
    If only we could have some sort of national election to gauge the popularity of the Tories versus Labour?

    Wait till the true results come out via Twitter.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,495

    surbiton said:


    I am all for women's equality but this woman is a b1tch ! The senior silk was wrong is complimenting her; agreed. But he only got to reply because she sent him an unsolicited mail.
    She did not send it to the 280m linkedin users, only those she chose to send to. She or he did not know each other from Adam.

    She is clearly trying to make a name for herself - in the hope of getting more work/attention. I can imagine many, many people will make sure that she is not engaged on any cases they are seeking to bring.
    Her media performances clearly show she is not an advocate of any quality. Who is going to employ a barrister with such an obvious chip on her shoulder, someone who is going to push their own agenda rather than representing you effectively?
    Her professional career has been damaged by this. And the fault for that is all hers - not the person who made the comments about her online profile.
    Just wondering... What are the criteria for appointment as a barrister? As I understand it, it is just a matter of being in with the right people and eating the necessary number of dinners. But are there other filters?
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    RodCrosby said:

    Rocks and bricks thrown at riot police on Hungarian border as migrants try to break through.

    Tear gas, pepper spray and water cannon offered in response...

    Good job Antifranks had a good year punting, might offset some of the equity on the bolt hole
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,894
    RodCrosby said:

    Rocks and bricks thrown at riot police on Hungarian border as migrants try to break through.

    Tear gas, pepper spray and water cannon offered in response...

    That is how you sort out criminal behaviour.
  • Am I the only person already tired of the Corbyn circus?

    I hope we can leave him alone to either succeed or fail and get on with arguing about something else.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,918
    Estobar said:

    But, compared with much of the last fifty years, mostly people seem pretty content:

    Christ. You haven't got a clue! Go and talk to teachers, health workers, people trying to get on the housing ladder, students not to mention people forced to use food banks, pound shops, wonga dealers ... the list could go on.
    You left out the nurses, the lovely nurses, the lovely voting nurses, the lovely Labour voting nurses.
  • taffys said:

    I think the odd Claire Proudman is a price worth paying for what things used to be like.

    I remember being at lunch in the City and being dumbfounded when a man at another table casually asked a rather fulsome female colleague as she got up to leave....'so, are you taking your t8ts back to the office then..??'

    This was the early 1990s.

    The best put down I have ever heard was at a business dinner, when some arrogant fool asked the waitress the age old question: "What does it take to get into your knickers"

    Back came the stunning reply " There's only room for one c**t in my knickers"
  • taffys said:

    ''OK, now I'm thinking you are really a troll, having fun by posing as a leftie. ''

    Yes the mask may have slipped with the last sentence of that post...

    #DUJCA
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,839
    @jonwalker121: The new #PMQs - Corbyn asks polite and very good questions & Labour listens quietly as Mr Cameron explains what great work the govt is doing
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,037
    God the atmosphere in here is like a graveyard. I'm off ski! Love y'all.
  • surbiton said:

    Like it or not, Corbyn has changed the rules.

    No, he really hasn't. But he has surrounded himself with people who think he has.

    Political gravity is going to be a bitch.
    Correct. Of course he has not changed the rules. He stands up and he asks questions. And I think the word you are looking for is gravitas.
    No, gravity.
    The fall from power will be very hard. And probably even harder for his current loud supporters to deal with.
    Corbyn will never have political gravitas. Ever.
    Yes - that was my point.
    Since no one expected labour MPs to nominate him I am totally open about what will happen in the future. The damage is done for Labour. Indeed once they do, if they do, get rid of him (it will be the same MPs who nominated him) Labour will look totally stupid and open to all the barbs that will happily then be thrown at them.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,894

    Congrats on getting Glen to write for PB. His longer piece on Corbyn is also well worth reading.

    http://publicpolicypast.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/the-wrongness-of-corbynism.html

    Glen has an impressive CV, his knowledge of history is nearly as impressive as mine.

    http://www.history.brookes.ac.uk/People/Academic/prof.asp?ID=600

    Was a real pleasure to ask him to write a piece for PB.
    Nope. He is an idiot.
    Whereas the most intelligent contribution to ever come out of you left a brown stain on the toilet bowl.
    Dear Dear , how coarse TSE, have you joined the oafs. Even allowing for the provocation that is bad form.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,604

    Estobar said:



    One thing, though, I'd take issue with - is it really true that there is an unusual amount of rage and anger at the moment?

    Yes there really is. Incandescent rage. Masses of it.
    Impotent, infantile rage. From a very small minority of very loud people.
    Who are now gifted a fucking massive megaphone, courtesy of social media....
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