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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On tonight’s PB/Polling Matters TV Show: The fight for Lond

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited April 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On tonight’s PB/Polling Matters TV Show: The fight for London and the White House Race after Wisconsin

If Labour is to have any chance of getting a good result in the May 5th elections then London is the place where it has most hopes. A victory by Sadiq Khan to re-take the Mayoralty for the party would provide a massive boost and maybe offset expected disappointments elsewhere. But will it happen.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    edited April 2016
    First like leave.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited April 2016
    Second like Remain.

    Up yours Brussels:
    https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/717797350345936899
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,854
    Third, though I'd prefer HOLYWELL to win on Saturday.

    I've backed him each way at 20/1 with a bookie (Jennings) who is paying quarter the odds six places.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    I was driving to work today listening to radio 4 , when an author was discussing his new book,about members of the world war 2 war cabinet that have been overlooked and forgotten by many today.
    I can not seem to find it , is anyone aware of the book ?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Quinnipiac Pennsylvania

    GOP
    Trump 39
    Cruz 30
    Kasich 24

    Dems
    Clinton 50
    Sanders 44

    General Election

    Clinton 45
    Trump 42

    Clinton 43
    Cruz 43

    Clinton 35
    Kasich 51


    Sanders 48
    Trump 40

    Sanders 46
    Cruz 38

    Sanders 40
    Kasich 46
    https://www.qu.edu/images/polling/pa/pa04062016_Pfgr37w.pdf
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Haven't had the chance to go back through the threads but has this been mentioned? I mean Jeeez this is beyond appalling and crass what was she thinking?
    The stupid woman can't even relate that the victims were buried on the moors. It's the nickname luv that gives you the fecking clue.

    "SNP election agent is condemned as 'a disgrace' after comparing David Cameron and Boris Johnson to child killers Ian Brady and Myra Hindley
    Photo doctored to make Cameron and Johnson look like Moors murderers "

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3526743/SNP-election-agent-condemned-disgrace-comparing-David-Cameron-Boris-Johnson-child-killers-Ian-Brady-Myra-Hindley.html#ixzz454trBRRG
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016
    HYUFD said:

    Quinnipiac Pennsylvania

    GOP
    Trump 39
    Cruz 30
    Kasich 24

    Dems
    Clinton 50
    Sanders 44

    General Election

    Clinton 45
    Trump 42

    Clinton 43
    Cruz 43

    Clinton 35
    Kasich 51


    Sanders 48
    Trump 40

    Sanders 46
    Cruz 38

    Sanders 40
    Kasich 46
    https://www.qu.edu/images/polling/pa/pa04062016_Pfgr37w.pdf

    I think the only GE polling that is relevant is one that asks about a 3rd option, not just Trump and Cruz vs Hillary.
    Because if either Trump or Cruz are the nominee then one of them is going to bolt out and run as an independent or support an independent.

    So it's fine if Cruz is level with Hillary on his own, but what happens if Trump runs as an independent in Pennsylvania ?
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    MP_SE said:

    Second like Remain.

    Up yours Brussels:
    https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/717797350345936899

    The results page is here:

    http://app.nos.nl/datavisualisatie/referendum-2016/

    EU fatigue has risen again in the Netherlands.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Quinnipiac Pennsylvania

    GOP
    Trump 39
    Cruz 30
    Kasich 24

    Dems
    Clinton 50
    Sanders 44

    General Election

    Clinton 45
    Trump 42

    Clinton 43
    Cruz 43

    Clinton 35
    Kasich 51


    Sanders 48
    Trump 40

    Sanders 46
    Cruz 38

    Sanders 40
    Kasich 46
    https://www.qu.edu/images/polling/pa/pa04062016_Pfgr37w.pdf

    I think the only GE polling that is relevant is one that asks about a 3rd option, not just Trump and Cruz vs Hillary.
    Because if either Trump or Cruz are the nominee then one of them is going to bolt out and run as an independent or support an independent.

    So it's fine if Cruz is level with Hillary on his own, but what happens if Trump runs as an independent in Pennsylvania ?
    You are right there
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited April 2016
    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

    One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

    The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

    There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    I think it will be used as yet another example of the democratic deficit which exists as a result of EU membership. That is presuming the Dutch people are ignored, which I suspect they will be.
  • Options
    MP_SE said:

    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    I think it will be used as yet another example of the democratic deficit which exists as a result of EU membership. That is presuming the Dutch people are ignored, which I suspect they will be.
    You could put your last fiver on it.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Speedy said:

    MP_SE said:

    Second like Remain.

    Up yours Brussels:
    https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/717797350345936899

    The results page is here:

    http://app.nos.nl/datavisualisatie/referendum-2016/

    EU fatigue has risen again in the Netherlands.
    Is that Groningen voting in favour in the north-east?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    edited April 2016
    Grrr, curse of the new thread: @Yorkcity
    Yorkcity said:

    I was driving to work today listening to radio 4 , when an author was discussing his new book,about members of the world war 2 war cabinet that have been overlooked and forgotten by many today.
    I can not seem to find it , is anyone aware of the book ?

    Roger Hermiston, author of All Behind You, Winston: Churchill's Great Coalition 1940-45, and Sonia Purnell, author of First Lady: The Life and Wars of Clementine Churchill.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b075qflr

    Sounds interesting. Years ago I did a lot of work on Sir John Anderson, who would surely be one of them. One of two career civil servants to subsequently become a Cabinet Minister (I forget who the other was).
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    chestnut said:

    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

    One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

    The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

    There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.
    I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

    Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016
    Moses_ said:

    Haven't had the chance to go back through the threads but has this been mentioned? I mean Jeeez this is beyond appalling and crass what was she thinking?
    The stupid woman can't even relate that the victims were buried on the moors. It's the nickname luv that gives you the fecking clue.

    "SNP election agent is condemned as 'a disgrace' after comparing David Cameron and Boris Johnson to child killers Ian Brady and Myra Hindley
    Photo doctored to make Cameron and Johnson look like Moors murderers "

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3526743/SNP-election-agent-condemned-disgrace-comparing-David-Cameron-Boris-Johnson-child-killers-Ian-Brady-Myra-Hindley.html#ixzz454trBRRG

    Another thick, and unattractive Scot. Does Donnachie post here as Malcolmg or Scotslass?

    Still, at 54, the vile creature will soon be breaking Scottish records for longevity.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    chestnut said:

    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

    One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

    The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

    There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.
    I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

    Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?
    Racism ?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited April 2016
    @kevverage:
    nothing to see hear, move on
    nothing to see hear, move on
    nothing to see hear, move on

    https://t.co/OLTV3WPh2d https://t.co/ZeNx2p318k
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,848
    surbiton said:

    chestnut said:

    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

    One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

    The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

    There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.
    I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

    Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?
    Racism ?
    Last time I looked, Ukrainians were White.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DanHannanMEP: Greece - NO
    Denmark - NO
    Netherlands - NO
    All referendums in the past 12 months have gone against Brussels.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    chestnut said:

    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

    One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

    The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

    There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.
    I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

    Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?
    Ukraine is too close to Russia to ever be closer to the EU.

    Only EU bureaucrats seem to not understand this basic reality of European/Russian geopolitics.

    Yet it is possible to oppose Putin as well as opposing further EU/Ukraine involvement.

    I expect Alastair Meeks to come along shortly and suggest that this is an embarrassingly self serving comment.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    watford30 said:

    Moses_ said:

    Haven't had the chance to go back through the threads but has this been mentioned? I mean Jeeez this is beyond appalling and crass what was she thinking?
    The stupid woman can't even relate that the victims were buried on the moors. It's the nickname luv that gives you the fecking clue.

    "SNP election agent is condemned as 'a disgrace' after comparing David Cameron and Boris Johnson to child killers Ian Brady and Myra Hindley
    Photo doctored to make Cameron and Johnson look like Moors murderers "

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3526743/SNP-election-agent-condemned-disgrace-comparing-David-Cameron-Boris-Johnson-child-killers-Ian-Brady-Myra-Hindley.html#ixzz454trBRRG

    Another thick, and unattractive Scot. Does Donnachie post here as Malcolmg or Scotslass?

    Still, at 54, the vile creature will soon be breaking Scottish records for longevity.
    Looks the picture of health.
  • Options
    LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    edited April 2016
    I see the Dutch have decisively rejected the new cold warmongers, we aren't all useful idiots of the neocons and arms industry. Huzzah, a great victory for Europe!

    Apt that it should be the Dutch given the shooting down of MH17 over the Ukraine.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    Mortimer said:

    chestnut said:

    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

    One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

    The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

    There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.
    I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

    Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?
    Ukraine is too close to Russia to ever be closer to the EU.

    Only EU bureaucrats seem to not understand this basic reality of European/Russian geopolitics.
    .
    And a significant portion of Ukranians, apparently.

    It might well have been easier for all concerned if they didn't feel so, and there's no obligation for the EU to entice them further, but the main problem appears to be division over its future in Ukraine itself, not that two sides in Russia and the EU are making offers.
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Mortimer said:

    chestnut said:

    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

    One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

    The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

    There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.
    I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

    Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?
    Ukraine is too close to Russia to ever be closer to the EU.

    Only EU bureaucrats seem to not understand this basic reality of European/Russian geopolitics.

    Yet it is possible to oppose Putin as well as opposing further EU/Ukraine involvement.

    I expect Alastair Meeks to come along shortly and suggest that this is an embarrassingly self serving comment.
    The EU's meddling in the Ukraine came perilously close to starting a major conflict. Ashton was extraordinarily lucky.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    edited April 2016
    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    chestnut said:

    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

    One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

    The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

    There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.
    I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

    Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?
    Racism ?
    Last time I looked, Ukrainians were White.
    And Slavic. Anti-Slavic ideas have a long history in Europe. There was a small Austrian with a daft moustache and a thing for his niece who did not like them, for one.

    (Incidentally, I'm not saying that's why the Dutch referendum has gone against it. I suspect it would have gone that way had the Irish or the Germans been the country in question as well. This looks more like a mighty two-fingered salute to the EU. It's a bit unfortunate that they've picked a rare case of the EU doing something rather sensible - trying to help sort out the mess that Russia's meddling has left Ukraine in - rather than something stupid - like the Euro - to make the gesture though.)
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    ydoethur said:

    Grrr, curse of the new thread: @Yorkcity

    Yorkcity said:

    I was driving to work today listening to radio 4 , when an author was discussing his new book,about members of the world war 2 war cabinet that have been overlooked and forgotten by many today.
    I can not seem to find it , is anyone aware of the book ?

    Roger Hermiston, author of All Behind You, Winston: Churchill's Great Coalition 1940-45, and Sonia Purnell, author of First Lady: The Life and Wars of Clementine Churchill.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b075qflr

    Sounds interesting. Years ago I did a lot of work on Sir John Anderson, who would surely be one of them. One of two career civil servants to subsequently become a Cabinet Minister (I forget who the other was).
    Thanks much appreciated
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341



    I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

    Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?

    If I was a Russian I don't think I'd like the idea of a German dominated bloc sitting on my doorstep.

    Ukraine is the doorstep, and Ukrainian nationalism/collaboration has form where Germany/Russia is concerned.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,992
    MP_SE said:

    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    I think it will be used as yet another example of the democratic deficit which exists as a result of EU membership. That is presuming the Dutch people are ignored, which I suspect they will be.
    Of course the EFTA free trade deal with Ukraine was ratified without a single referendum on any EFTA country
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    I think it will be used as yet another example of the democratic deficit which exists as a result of EU membership. That is presuming the Dutch people are ignored, which I suspect they will be.
    Of course the EFTA free trade deal with Ukraine was ratified without a single referendum on any EFTA country
    Trade deals generally are. If one nation had a referendum that rejected it then signed anyway that'd be newsworthy.
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    LondonBob said:

    I see the Dutch have decisively rejected the new cold warmongers, we aren't all useful idiots of the neocons and arms industry. Huzzah, a great victory for Europe!

    Apt that it should be the Dutch given the shooting down of MH17 over the Ukraine.

    ... by a Russian missile launcher.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    ydoethur said:

    Grrr, curse of the new thread: @Yorkcity

    Yorkcity said:

    I was driving to work today listening to radio 4 , when an author was discussing his new book,about members of the world war 2 war cabinet that have been overlooked and forgotten by many today.
    I can not seem to find it , is anyone aware of the book ?

    Roger Hermiston, author of All Behind You, Winston: Churchill's Great Coalition 1940-45, and Sonia Purnell, author of First Lady: The Life and Wars of Clementine Churchill.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b075qflr

    Sounds interesting. Years ago I did a lot of work on Sir John Anderson, who would surely be one of them. One of two career civil servants to subsequently become a Cabinet Minister (I forget who the other was).
    Ah the Anderson shelter man. Built incedibly quickly; believe my grandfather, a former miner, built his in a few days. They could take for ever to get rid of after the way, though!

    We had a Morrison.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    chestnut said:

    If I was a Russian I don't think I'd like the idea of a German dominated bloc sitting on my doorstep.

    There is an awful lot of ignorance in Western Europe about Russia and the Ukraine. To sum up the key points:

    1) The Russians think of Ukraine as a province of Russia. It was, indeed, the place where Russia was created (the Duchy of Rus was first based in Kiev). They would see it joining the EU as the equivalent of Hampshire declaring independence and joining France.

    2) They therefore have enormous difficulty thinking of the Ukrainians as a separate people and entitled to make their separate decisions about what to do.

    3) They are also unnerved at the thought of a country next door to them, in the middle of a big, flat, grassy plain that runs pretty well all the way to Moscow, being controlled by someone else.

    Unfortunately, the Ukrainians do not quite see it that way:

    1) They are a separate people, with a separate language and therefore do not think of themselves as Russian;

    2) They hate the Russians with a passion, largely as a result of the Stalin era (collectivization) and the Second World War (when their country was devastated by the Russians, the Germans and then the Russians again);

    3) They believe that Russia only wants to run them as a sort of colonial outpost and food/raw materials depot. They also feel they are treated as inferiors by the Russians. Even in the USSR, only one Ukrainian ever rose to the top of the Communist party. Even Georgia had more senior Politburo members than they did.

    4) The whole thing is somewhat complicated by the huge numbers of Russians - as distinct from Ukrainians - who live in the Crimea, the Donetsk and Donbass, the latter regions the descendants of dispossessed peasants who went to work in the coal mines and factories under the Tsars. Who see things as Russians - i.e. 1-3 above - and not Ukrainians - 1-3 below. The result, of course, is a civil war. Forget the official ideologies - it's naked or at best scantily-clad nationalism.

    There is an argument that the EU should not twist Russia's tale by helping Ukraine. I don't think that's a tenable argument. If national self-determination is to be applied, Ukraine has the right to make trade agreements and treaties with whomever it wants. Putin is bullying it into making agreements only with him and has not proven shy about using torture, murder and corruption on a grand scale to do it. The EU as a bloc is in a better position to help Ukraine stand up to this than France/Britain/Germany or even NATO would be singly, via helpful trade terms and modernisation of their constitution (which was rigged to favour Russia).

    Therefore, in standing up for their independence on an issue that does not affect them directly Dutch voters are potentially damaging the Ukraine's own chances of remaining independent. That is a sad paradox.

    A thought to leave you with for tonight. Good night.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?
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    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Good article on the Panama papers that is getting closer to the nub of it all. They stop short of mentioning 788 790 Finchley Road and the interlocking addresses, but it takes things a step further:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/panama-papers-reveal-london-centre-spiders-173713142.html

    One of my sources has mentioned that there was a protest march in London today with regard to the Panama papers - does anyone have any further information about this? No mention in the mainstream media about this of course!

    Well we had a typical smoke and mirrors job from Cameron yesterday, not once but four times. Wes Streeting is quite right, until Cameron publishes all his tax returns going back to and including the 2010/11 tax year he has no hope of shutting this down. And depending on how quickly any inheritance disbursement from Blairmore Holdings fell into his lap, he has to publish back to 2010/11. Charles Walker was well and truly bested by Streeting and Jon Snow on Channel 4 News earlier this evening.

    Now yesterday, I mentioned about the Carroll Trust. Nothing very much is really known about the demise of the Carroll Trust, but the trust set up in 1986 which had 85 companies in it, was at one stage estimated to have a net worth of £250m. The following article tells some of the story about the collapse by 1993:

    http://nuclear-news.net/2013/06/23/david-cameron-tax-evasion-expose-security-service-cover-up/

    Why has no one to date been brought before the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) about the alleged fraud?

    What was the link between Smith Williamson Holdings and Blairmore Holdings and the Carroll Trust?

    What does Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe know about this?

    Why are the files in complete lockdown about this at the FBI in Washington and at Scotland Yard? I do wonder if anyone has tried to make an FOI request on these files, but I can guess what the response was.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,992

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    Thanks Philip.

    It's times like this I really wish Socrates was on the site.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    Understanding Russian feeling and 'appeasing' Putin are not the same thing.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Literally less than a minute of searching on twatter.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    MaxPB said:

    Literally less than a minute of searching on twatter.
    Not that I am that in to celeb tittle tattle, but I can see why the papers wanted to print it.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?
    Yes that is fair enough, though if someone looks askance at Ukrainian corruption specifically while ignoring other nations corruption then I'd wonder why the difference.

    But if the reason is to appease or avoid conflict with Russia then that is dreadful.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    Knew the stroman was coming.

  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited April 2016
    chestnut said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    Understanding Russian feeling and 'appeasing' Putin are not the same thing.
    If Ukraine wants to trade with us then that should be none of Russia's business as far as we are concerned. Russia may be pissed off but understanding Russian feeling and going ahead with the trade anyway is one thing. Understanding Russian feeling and cancelling the trade deal due to that is appeasement.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Ted Cruz in Madam's Black Book? That's the real story
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    ydoethur said:

    chestnut said:

    If I was a Russian I don't think I'd like the idea of a German dominated bloc sitting on my doorstep.

    There is an awful lot of ignorance in Western Europe about Russia and the Ukraine. To sum up the key points:

    1) The Russians think of Ukraine as a province of Russia. It was, indeed, the place where Russia was created (the Duchy of Rus was first based in Kiev). They would see it joining the EU as the equivalent of Hampshire declaring independence and joining France.

    2) They therefore have enormous difficulty thinking of the Ukrainians as a separate people and entitled to make their separate decisions about what to do.

    3) They are also unnerved at the thought of a country next door to them, in the middle of a big, flat, grassy plain that runs pretty well all the way to Moscow, being controlled by someone else.

    Unfortunately, the Ukrainians do not quite see it that way:

    1) They are a separate people, with a separate language and therefore do not think of themselves as Russian;

    2) They hate the Russians with a passion, largely as a result of the Stalin era (collectivization) and the Second World War (when their country was devastated by the Russians, the Germans and then the Russians again);

    3) They believe that Russia only wants to run them as a sort of colonial outpost and food/raw materials depot. They also feel they are treated as inferiors by the Russians. Even in the USSR, only one Ukrainian ever rose to the top of the Communist party. Even Georgia had more senior Politburo members than they did.

    There is an argument that the EU should not twist Russia's tale by helping Ukraine. I don't think that's a tenable argument. If national self-determination is to be applied, Ukraine has the right to make trade agreements and treaties with whomever it wants. Putin is bullying it into making agreements only with him and has not proven shy about using torture, murder and corruption on a grand scale to do it. The EU as a bloc is in a better position to help Ukraine stand up to this than France/Britain/Germany or even NATO would be singly, via helpful trade terms and modernisation of their constitution (which was rigged to favour Russia).

    Therefore, in standing up for their independence on an issue that does not affect them directly Dutch voters are potentially damaging the Ukraine's own chances of remaining independent. That is a sad paradox.

    A thought to leave you with for tonight. Good night.
    A helpful summary! Two depressing statistics about the Ukraine: 1) GDP per capita is $2,100 (worse than Sudan) and 2) highest HIV prevalence in Europe at more than 1% of the adult population.

    The people in charge since 'independence' have looted the country.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Grrr, curse of the new thread: @Yorkcity

    Yorkcity said:

    I was driving to work today listening to radio 4 , when an author was discussing his new book,about members of the world war 2 war cabinet that have been overlooked and forgotten by many today.
    I can not seem to find it , is anyone aware of the book ?

    Roger Hermiston, author of All Behind You, Winston: Churchill's Great Coalition 1940-45, and Sonia Purnell, author of First Lady: The Life and Wars of Clementine Churchill.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b075qflr

    Sounds interesting. Years ago I did a lot of work on Sir John Anderson, who would surely be one of them. One of two career civil servants to subsequently become a Cabinet Minister (I forget who the other was).
    Thanks much appreciated
    Maurice Hankey, Cabinet Secretary is the other.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Hankey,_1st_Baron_Hankey
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Re Ukraine

    Ukraine is deeply split on a broadly east-west axis, in terms of its attitudes to Russia. This relates not just to Russian immigration in the last century but also to the fact that Ukraine's current (somewhat artificial) borders bring together areas that in the west, were historically parts of Poland (and later Austria-Hungary) and in the east areas that were part of Russia from the 17th century (and with an emotional attachment to Russians that goes back to the Dark Ages).

    The result of this is that to push Ukraine either entirely into the Russian or entirely into the western orbit risks destabilising the country, as well as infuriating the Russians. Against this background, the EU's attempt to expand into Ukraine were very unwise. The Russian response is of course unacceptable but was also predictable - and entirely avoidable.
  • Options
    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    hunchman said:

    Good article on the Panama papers that is getting closer to the nub of it all. They stop short of mentioning 788 790 Finchley Road and the interlocking addresses, but it takes things a step further:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/panama-papers-reveal-london-centre-spiders-173713142.html

    One of my sources has mentioned that there was a protest march in London today with regard to the Panama papers - does anyone have any further information about this? No mention in the mainstream media about this of course!

    Well we had a typical smoke and mirrors job from Cameron yesterday, not once but four times. Wes Streeting is quite right, until Cameron publishes all his tax returns going back to and including the 2010/11 tax year he has no hope of shutting this down. And depending on how quickly any inheritance disbursement from Blairmore Holdings fell into his lap, he has to publish back to 2010/11. Charles Walker was well and truly bested by Streeting and Jon Snow on Channel 4 News earlier this evening.

    Now yesterday, I mentioned about the Carroll Trust. Nothing very much is really known about the demise of the Carroll Trust, but the trust set up in 1986 which had 85 companies in it, was at one stage estimated to have a net worth of £250m. The following article tells some of the story about the collapse by 1993:

    http://nuclear-news.net/2013/06/23/david-cameron-tax-evasion-expose-security-service-cover-up/

    Why has no one to date been brought before the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) about the alleged fraud?

    What was the link between Smith Williamson Holdings and Blairmore Holdings and the Carroll Trust?

    What does Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe know about this?

    Why are the files in complete lockdown about this at the FBI in Washington and at Scotland Yard? I do wonder if anyone has tried to make an FOI request on these files, but I can guess what the response was.

    What a load of bollocks - "David Cameron's Blairmore trust"...
    Brought to you by a weird person.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RoyalBlue said:

    ydoethur said:

    chestnut said:

    .

    There is an awful lot of ignorance in Western Europe about Russia and the Ukraine. To sum up the key points:

    1) The Russians think of Ukraine as a province of Russia. It was, indeed, the place where Russia was created (the Duchy of Rus was first based in Kiev). They would see it joining the EU as the equivalent of Hampshire declaring independence and joining France.

    2) They therefore have enormous difficulty thinking of the Ukrainians as a separate people and entitled to make their separate decisions about what to do.

    3) They are also unnerved at the thought of a country next door to them, in the middle of a big, flat, grassy plain that runs pretty well all the way to Moscow, being controlled by someone else.

    Unfortunately, the Ukrainians do not quite see it that way:

    1) They are a separate people, with a separate language and therefore do not think of themselves as Russian;

    2) They hate the Russians with a passion, largely as a result of the Stalin era (collectivization) and the Second World War (when their country was devastated by the Russians, the Germans and then the Russians again);

    3) They believe that Russia only wants to run them as a sort of colonial outpost and food/raw materials depot. They also feel they are treated as inferiors by the Russians. Even in the USSR, only one Ukrainian ever rose to the top of the Communist party. Even Georgia had more senior Politburo members than they did.

    There is an argument that the EU should not twist Russia's tale by helping Ukraine. I don't think that's a tenable argument. If national self-determination is to be applied, Ukraine has the right to make trade agreements and treaties with whomever it wants. Putin is bullying it into making agreements only with him and has not proven shy about using torture, murder and corruption on a grand scale to do it. The EU as a bloc is in a better position to help Ukraine stand up to this than France/Britain/Germany or even NATO would be singly, via helpful trade terms and modernisation of their constitution (which was rigged to favour Russia).

    Therefore, in standing up for their independence on an issue that does not affect them directly Dutch voters are potentially damaging the Ukraine's own chances of remaining independent. That is a sad paradox.

    A thought to leave you with for tonight. Good night.
    A helpful summary! Two depressing statistics about the Ukraine: 1) GDP per capita is $2,100 (worse than Sudan) and 2) highest HIV prevalence in Europe at more than 1% of the adult population.

    The people in charge since 'independence' have looted the country.
    I think an even more helpful summary is that Ukraine is simply Russia if Boris Yeltsin was still in charge.
  • Options
    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    Which ever way they turn they will be condemned to an authoritarian dictator.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    Which ever way they turn they will be condemned to an authoritarian dictator.
    You clearly need to get out more if you think the EU is equivalent to Putins kleptocracy!
  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    perdix said:

    hunchman said:

    Good article on the Panama papers that is getting closer to the nub of it all. They stop short of mentioning 788 790 Finchley Road and the interlocking addresses, but it takes things a step further:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/panama-papers-reveal-london-centre-spiders-173713142.html

    One of my sources has mentioned that there was a protest march in London today with regard to the Panama papers - does anyone have any further information about this? No mention in the mainstream media about this of course!

    Well we had a typical smoke and mirrors job from Cameron yesterday, not once but four times. Wes Streeting is quite right, until Cameron publishes all his tax returns going back to and including the 2010/11 tax year he has no hope of shutting this down. And depending on how quickly any inheritance disbursement from Blairmore Holdings fell into his lap, he has to publish back to 2010/11. Charles Walker was well and truly bested by Streeting and Jon Snow on Channel 4 News earlier this evening.

    Now yesterday, I mentioned about the Carroll Trust. Nothing very much is really known about the demise of the Carroll Trust, but the trust set up in 1986 which had 85 companies in it, was at one stage estimated to have a net worth of £250m. The following article tells some of the story about the collapse by 1993:

    http://nuclear-news.net/2013/06/23/david-cameron-tax-evasion-expose-security-service-cover-up/

    Why has no one to date been brought before the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) about the alleged fraud?

    What was the link between Smith Williamson Holdings and Blairmore Holdings and the Carroll Trust?

    What does Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe know about this?

    Why are the files in complete lockdown about this at the FBI in Washington and at Scotland Yard? I do wonder if anyone has tried to make an FOI request on these files, but I can guess what the response was.

    What a load of bollocks - "David Cameron's Blairmore trust"...
    Brought to you by a weird person.

    You might think its a load of bo**ocks Perdix, but some people like myself are relentless in getting to the bottom of things and the truth about the squalid goings on amongst the establishment. Too bad that you're offended by such concerns.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    chestnut said:

    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

    One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

    The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

    There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.
    I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

    Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?
    Racism ?
    Last time I looked, Ukrainians were White.
    That's actually quite a worrying comment. It appears that you think you can only suffer racism if you are any colour other than white. Perhaps you didn't mean it the way it reads ?
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    perdix said:

    hunchman said:

    Good article on the Panama papers that is getting closer to the nub of it all. They stop short of mentioning 788 790 Finchley Road and the interlocking addresses, but it takes things a step further:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/panama-papers-reveal-london-centre-spiders-173713142.html

    One of my sources has mentioned that there was a protest march in London today with regard to the Panama papers - does anyone have any further information about this? No mention in the mainstream media about this of course!

    Well we had a typical smoke and mirrors job from Cameron yesterday, not once but four times. Wes Streeting is quite right, until Cameron publishes all his tax returns going back to and including the 2010/11 tax year he has no hope of shutting this down. And depending on how quickly any inheritance disbursement from Blairmore Holdings fell into his lap, he has to publish back to 2010/11. Charles Walker was well and truly bested by Streeting and Jon Snow on Channel 4 News earlier this evening.

    Now yesterday, I mentioned about the Carroll Trust. Nothing very much is really known about the demise of the Carroll Trust, but the trust set up in 1986 which had 85 companies in it, was at one stage estimated to have a net worth of £250m. The following article tells some of the story about the collapse by 1993:

    http://nuclear-news.net/2013/06/23/david-cameron-tax-evasion-expose-security-service-cover-up/

    Why has no one to date been brought before the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) about the alleged fraud?

    What was the link between Smith Williamson Holdings and Blairmore Holdings and the Carroll Trust?

    What does Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe know about this?

    Why are the files in complete lockdown about this at the FBI in Washington and at Scotland Yard? I do wonder if anyone has tried to make an FOI request on these files, but I can guess what the response was.

    What a load of bollocks - "David Cameron's Blairmore trust"...
    Brought to you by a weird person.

    Still, it stops Hunchman posting about loopy chartist theories and the nutty fraudster cum antique coin salesman.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

    And there we have it. I can't stand the way someone who disagrees with something is now a phobe. It is derogatory and suggests overreaction.

    I am not scared of European elites - they're laughable. But I imagine they might soon be scared of the people; Holland has suggested as much.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Moses_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    chestnut said:

    taffys said:

    I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

    99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

    One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

    The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

    There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.
    I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

    Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?
    Racism ?
    Last time I looked, Ukrainians were White.
    That's actually quite a worrying comment. It appears that you think you can only suffer racism if you are any colour other than white. Perhaps you didn't mean it the way it reads ?
    I think he is implying that he sees Ukrainians as the same race as White Britons.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited April 2016

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    Which ever way they turn they will be condemned to an authoritarian dictator.
    The most troubling thing about that post is that you might actually believe it.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    MaxPB said:

    Literally less than a minute of searching on twatter.
    I just spent a good 5 minutes searching and am none the wiser :(
  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    runnymede said:

    Re Ukraine

    Ukraine is deeply split on a broadly east-west axis, in terms of its attitudes to Russia. This relates not just to Russian immigration in the last century but also to the fact that Ukraine's current (somewhat artificial) borders bring together areas that in the west, were historically parts of Poland (and later Austria-Hungary) and in the east areas that were part of Russia from the 17th century (and with an emotional attachment to Russians that goes back to the Dark Ages).

    The result of this is that to push Ukraine either entirely into the Russian or entirely into the western orbit risks destabilising the country, as well as infuriating the Russians. Against this background, the EU's attempt to expand into Ukraine were very unwise. The Russian response is of course unacceptable but was also predictable - and entirely avoidable.

    Well done to the Dutch people today, again no coverage in the mainstream about this, surprise surprise.

    On another note, the leaflet coming to me next week from HM Government will be going straight into the bin. This is a scandalous waste of £9m of taxpayers money - we the people are quite capable of making our own minds up. Any literature from both sides should be privately financed by both sides. I didn't want 15p of my own money telling me a load of bull****, and instead maybe could have gone towards a better settlement for the junior doctors.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Danny565 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Literally less than a minute of searching on twatter.
    I just spent a good 5 minutes searching and am none the wiser :(
    You should stop using Bing ;-)
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

    https://twitter.com/GregLinaman/status/717721977570467840

    This is very simple, chronic EU fatigue is the cause behind this, people simply disagree with the direction the EU is going since 1992.
    The EU hasn't won a referendum since they forced the Irish to vote twice on the Nice treaty in 2001.

    Goodnight.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mortimer said:

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

    And there we have it. I can't stand the way someone who disagrees with something is now a phobe. It is derogatory and suggests overreaction.

    I am not scared of European elites - they're laughable. But I imagine they might soon be scared of the people; Holland has suggested as much.
    I mean phobe as an irrational fear.

    Dan Hannan on Newsnight just volunteered that he had voted in favour of the EU -Ukraine treaty.

    What is it about this treaty that you object to? Apart from the fact that it was negotiated by the EU?
  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    watford30 said:

    perdix said:

    hunchman said:

    Good article on the Panama papers that is getting closer to the nub of it all. They stop short of mentioning 788 790 Finchley Road and the interlocking addresses, but it takes things a step further:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/panama-papers-reveal-london-centre-spiders-173713142.html

    One of my sources has mentioned that there was a protest march in London today with regard to the Panama papers - does anyone have any further information about this? No mention in the mainstream media about this of course!

    Well we had a typical smoke and mirrors job from Cameron yesterday, not once but four times. Wes Streeting is quite right, until Cameron publishes all his tax returns going back to and including the 2010/11 tax year he has no hope of shutting this down. And depending on how quickly any inheritance disbursement from Blairmore Holdings fell into his lap, he has to publish back to 2010/11. Charles Walker was well and truly bested by Streeting and Jon Snow on Channel 4 News earlier this evening.

    Now yesterday, I mentioned about the Carroll Trust. Nothing very much is really known about the demise of the Carroll Trust, but the trust set up in 1986 which had 85 companies in it, was at one stage estimated to have a net worth of £250m. The following article tells some of the story about the collapse by 1993:

    http://nuclear-news.net/2013/06/23/david-cameron-tax-evasion-expose-security-service-cover-up/

    Why has no one to date been brought before the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) about the alleged fraud?

    What was the link between Smith Williamson Holdings and Blairmore Holdings and the Carroll Trust?

    What does Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe know about this?

    Why are the files in complete lockdown about this at the FBI in Washington and at Scotland Yard? I do wonder if anyone has tried to make an FOI request on these files, but I can guess what the response was.

    What a load of bollocks - "David Cameron's Blairmore trust"...
    Brought to you by a weird person.

    Still, it stops Hunchman posting about loopy chartist theories and the nutty fraudster cum antique coin salesman.
    Too bad again that you have such a closed mindset on the way the world works, and don't want to learn. I'm sure you'll want to read this article on Mossack Fonseca from the forecaster's forecaster, who's got more talent in his little finger than anything you posess:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/icijs-political-agenda-may-backfire/
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    Creeping colonialism.......

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,992
    runnymede said:

    Re Ukraine

    Ukraine is deeply split on a broadly east-west axis, in terms of its attitudes to Russia. This relates not just to Russian immigration in the last century but also to the fact that Ukraine's current (somewhat artificial) borders bring together areas that in the west, were historically parts of Poland (and later Austria-Hungary) and in the east areas that were part of Russia from the 17th century (and with an emotional attachment to Russians that goes back to the Dark Ages).

    The result of this is that to push Ukraine either entirely into the Russian or entirely into the western orbit risks destabilising the country, as well as infuriating the Russians. Against this background, the EU's attempt to expand into Ukraine were very unwise. The Russian response is of course unacceptable but was also predictable - and entirely avoidable.

    So, EFTA signing a free trade deal with the Ukraine is OK. But the EU doing it is not?
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Mortimer said:

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

    And there we have it. I can't stand the way someone who disagrees with something is now a phobe. It is derogatory and suggests overreaction.

    I am not scared of European elites - they're laughable. But I imagine they might soon be scared of the people; Holland has suggested as much.
    I mean phobe as an irrational fear.

    Dan Hannan on Newsnight just volunteered that he had voted in favour of the EU -Ukraine treaty.

    What is it about this treaty that you object to? Apart from the fact that it was negotiated by the EU?
    The fact that is fails to appreciate basic geopolitics.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,992
    MaxPB said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?
    The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Speedy said:

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

    https://twitter.com/GregLinaman/status/717721977570467840

    This is very simple, chronic EU fatigue is the cause behind this, people simply disagree with the direction the EU is going since 1992.
    The EU hasn't won a referendum since they forced the Irish to vote twice on the Nice treaty in 2001.

    Goodnight.
    Even if you exclude the second Irish Lisbon referendum then what about both the Spanish and Luxembourg EU Constitution referendums?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,992
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

    And there we have it. I can't stand the way someone who disagrees with something is now a phobe. It is derogatory and suggests overreaction.

    I am not scared of European elites - they're laughable. But I imagine they might soon be scared of the people; Holland has suggested as much.
    I mean phobe as an irrational fear.

    Dan Hannan on Newsnight just volunteered that he had voted in favour of the EU -Ukraine treaty.

    What is it about this treaty that you object to? Apart from the fact that it was negotiated by the EU?
    The fact that is fails to appreciate basic geopolitics.
    Basic politics being that small countries next to big ones shouldn't be allowed to sign trade treaties?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?
    The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.
    Good, reason to vote leave then.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?
    Yes that is fair enough, though if someone looks askance at Ukrainian corruption specifically while ignoring other nations corruption then I'd wonder why the difference.

    But if the reason is to appease or avoid conflict with Russia then that is dreadful.
    Well I wouldn't. As I have said, I also oppose any notion of a free trade deal with China and oppose Chinese investments in UK infrastructure. I would also sever trade ties with pretty much all of the Gulf nations. The west is too willing to turn a blind eye to corruption and human rights abuses when it suits us (Ukraine, Saudi Arabia, China) but scream bloody murder when it doesn't (Russia/Putin, Iran, Venezuela). This double standard should be eradicated.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?
    The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.
    The interesting thing is the Russians clearly don't see EFTA as a threat, but they do see the EU as a threat. Which is of course because they correctly perceive that the EU is not really about trade, but empire building.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Danny565 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Literally less than a minute of searching on twatter.
    I just spent a good 5 minutes searching and am none the wiser :(
    I would post the name of the publication but I fear for Mike's legal bill!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

    And there we have it. I can't stand the way someone who disagrees with something is now a phobe. It is derogatory and suggests overreaction.

    I am not scared of European elites - they're laughable. But I imagine they might soon be scared of the people; Holland has suggested as much.
    I mean phobe as an irrational fear.

    Dan Hannan on Newsnight just volunteered that he had voted in favour of the EU -Ukraine treaty.

    What is it about this treaty that you object to? Apart from the fact that it was negotiated by the EU?
    The fact that is fails to appreciate basic geopolitics.
    Which geopolitical fact should we appreciate? That Russia does not respect the independence or sovereignty of its neighbours?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    chestnut said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    Understanding Russian feeling and 'appeasing' Putin are not the same thing.
    No they aren't, although to my mind we do see too much blame apportioned to the EU, an organization I want to leave, in the Ukraine situation on the grounds that of course this would happen due to EU ambitions being too high. Which may well be the case, and it would have been simpler all around if many Ukranians did not want a path which would upset Russia, but ultimately they can choose to try to join if they want, how much the EU is wrong to encourage that is really pretty irrelevant in how Russia has responded.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?
    The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.
    China too. :/
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,992
    Speedy said:

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

    https://twitter.com/GregLinaman/status/717721977570467840

    This is very simple, chronic EU fatigue is the cause behind this, people simply disagree with the direction the EU is going since 1992.
    The EU hasn't won a referendum since they forced the Irish to vote twice on the Nice treaty in 2001.

    Goodnight.
    That's not strictly true, they've won two Swiss referendum (and lost one). In 2012, the Croatians voted to join the EU. There was also the Irish referendum in 2012 or 2013 on ratifying the EU fiscal compact. And there may be some others I've forgotten about.
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    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591

    Mortimer said:

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

    And there we have it. I can't stand the way someone who disagrees with something is now a phobe. It is derogatory and suggests overreaction.

    I am not scared of European elites - they're laughable. But I imagine they might soon be scared of the people; Holland has suggested as much.
    I mean phobe as an irrational fear.

    Dan Hannan on Newsnight just volunteered that he had voted in favour of the EU -Ukraine treaty.

    What is it about this treaty that you object to? Apart from the fact that it was negotiated by the EU?
    I object to the fact that the EU along with the Americans encouraged regime change in Ukraine, whilst deliberately provoking Putin and Russia. We promised Russia after the end of the cold war that we wouldn't extend Nato to its own borders, let alone try to extend the EU up to the Russian border as well. You should know your recent history a bit better and how this plays amongst other countries outside the Eurocracy before commenting on such matters. It would have been far better for all concerned if the eastern part of Ukraine had been ceded to Russia, and have a western facing smaller Ukraine. The Ukraine on its current borders with the inevitable historic divisions and tensions was never going to be a viable thriving state long term.

    The Mossack Fonseca coverage in our mainstream press has been typical in poking a stick at Russia (and China) instead of sorting out our own grubby affairs at home. Britain with its disgraceful corruption is in no position to lecture the rest of the world on tax affairs, particularly when the whole world finally finds out what has been going on at 788 790 Finchley Road and all of the interconnected boiler room operations.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Another case of the UK being heard loud and clear within the EU:

    https://twitter.com/stewartwood/status/717824288703823873
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,992
    runnymede said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?
    The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.
    The interesting thing is the Russians clearly don't see EFTA as a threat, but they do see the EU as a threat. Which is of course because they correctly perceive that the EU is not really about trade, but empire building.
    The Russians want a fragmented Europe. It is in their interests to be the dominant power on Europe. No EU, no NATO, and them as r dominant energy supplier to the continent would be geopolitical mana from heaven for them.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

    And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

    And there we have it. I can't stand the way someone who disagrees with something is now a phobe. It is derogatory and suggests overreaction.

    I am not scared of European elites - they're laughable. But I imagine they might soon be scared of the people; Holland has suggested as much.
    I mean phobe as an irrational fear.

    Dan Hannan on Newsnight just volunteered that he had voted in favour of the EU -Ukraine treaty.

    What is it about this treaty that you object to? Apart from the fact that it was negotiated by the EU?
    The fact that is fails to appreciate basic geopolitics.
    Which geopolitical fact should we appreciate? That Russia does not respect the independence or sovereignty of its neighbours?
    The fact that Ukraine borders Russia, and that an expansionist Russia led by someone increasingly backed into a corner might well overreact further to interference from foreign capitals.

    I can't stand Russian policy towards ex USSR territories - but this is anything but a de-escalation strategy.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016
    hunchman said:

    watford30 said:

    perdix said:

    hunchman said:

    Good article on the Panama papers that is getting closer to the nub of it all. They stop short of mentioning 788 790 Finchley Road and the interlocking addresses, but it takes things a step further:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/panama-papers-reveal-london-centre-spiders-173713142.html

    One of my sources has mentioned that there was a protest march in London today with regard to the Panama papers - does anyone have any further information about this? No mention in the mainstream media about this of course!

    Well we had a typical smoke and mirrors job from Cameron yesterday, not once but four times. Wes Streeting is quite right, until Cameron publishes all his tax returns going back to and including the 2010/11 tax year he has no hope of shutting this down. And depending on how quickly any inheritance disbursement from Blairmore Holdings fell into his lap, he has to publish back to 2010/11. Charles Walker was well and truly bested by Streeting and Jon Snow on Channel 4 News earlier this evening.

    Now yesterday, I mentioned about the Carroll Trust. Nothing very much is really known about the demise of the Carroll Trust, but the trust set up in 1986 which had 85 companies in it, was at one stage estimated to have a net worth of £250m. The following article tells some of the story about the collapse by 1993:

    http://nuclear-news.net/2013/06/23/david-cameron-tax-evasion-expose-security-service-cover-up/

    Why has no one to date been brought before the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) about the alleged fraud?

    What was the link between Smith Williamson Holdings and Blairmore Holdings and the Carroll Trust?

    What does Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe know about this?

    Why are the files in complete lockdown about this at the FBI in Washington and at Scotland Yard? I do wonder if anyone has tried to make an FOI request on these files, but I can guess what the response was.

    What a load of bollocks - "David Cameron's Blairmore trust"...
    Brought to you by a weird person.

    Still, it stops Hunchman posting about loopy chartist theories and the nutty fraudster cum antique coin salesman.
    Too bad again that you have such a closed mindset on the way the world works, and don't want to learn. I'm sure you'll want to read this article on Mossack Fonseca from the forecaster's forecaster, who's got more talent in his little finger than anything you posess:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/icijs-political-agenda-may-backfire/
    That's the guy. Lost his marbles in prison, whilst doing time for fraud, civil contempt, and conspiracy.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rcs1000 said:

    runnymede said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?
    The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.
    The interesting thing is the Russians clearly don't see EFTA as a threat, but they do see the EU as a threat. Which is of course because they correctly perceive that the EU is not really about trade, but empire building.
    The Russians want a fragmented Europe. It is in their interests to be the dominant power on Europe. No EU, no NATO, and them as r dominant energy supplier to the continent would be geopolitical mana from heaven for them.
    Leaving the EU won't mean leaving NATO and that's simply not going to happen. NATO matters far more than the EU.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    rcs1000 said:

    The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.

    Amusement aside, is that actually right? It's unclear to me (but may not be unclear to others) whether EFTA's existing trade agreements would be inherited by a state which joined EFTA now.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    rcs1000 said:

    runnymede said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?
    The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.
    The interesting thing is the Russians clearly don't see EFTA as a threat, but they do see the EU as a threat. Which is of course because they correctly perceive that the EU is not really about trade, but empire building.
    The Russians want a fragmented Europe. It is in their interests to be the dominant power on Europe. No EU, no NATO, and them as r dominant energy supplier to the continent would be geopolitical mana from heaven for them.
    Honestly, Russian aggression is the only thing that might swing me into the remain camp, but I would want to eject the freeloaders and obstructionists at the same time.
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    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    runnymede said:

    Re Ukraine

    Ukraine is deeply split on a broadly east-west axis, in terms of its attitudes to Russia. This relates not just to Russian immigration in the last century but also to the fact that Ukraine's current (somewhat artificial) borders bring together areas that in the west, were historically parts of Poland (and later Austria-Hungary) and in the east areas that were part of Russia from the 17th century (and with an emotional attachment to Russians that goes back to the Dark Ages).

    The result of this is that to push Ukraine either entirely into the Russian or entirely into the western orbit risks destabilising the country, as well as infuriating the Russians. Against this background, the EU's attempt to expand into Ukraine were very unwise. The Russian response is of course unacceptable but was also predictable - and entirely avoidable.

    Well said Runnymede. Its staggering the lack of historical perspective and knowledge displayed by a lot of posters on here, and then they wonder why their proposed solutions end up in tears.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    rcs1000 said:

    The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.

    Amusement aside, is that actually right? It's unclear to me (but may not be unclear to others) whether EFTA's existing trade agreements would be inherited by a state which joined EFTA now.
    I think that is the case, we inherit, or at least are able to take up any existing EFTA trade deals if we join the organisation.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    kle4 said:

    chestnut said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    Understanding Russian feeling and 'appeasing' Putin are not the same thing.
    No they aren't, although to my mind we do see too much blame apportioned to the EU, an organization I want to leave, in the Ukraine situation on the grounds that of course this would happen due to EU ambitions being too high. Which may well be the case, and it would have been simpler all around if many Ukranians did not want a path which would upset Russia, but ultimately they can choose to try to join if they want, how much the EU is wrong to encourage that is really pretty irrelevant in how Russia has responded.
    In fairness to the Dutch - it is them who are voting after all - their judgement should be in the Dutch national interest - not Ukraine's, Russia's, the EU's.

    The EU is something I'm struggling to describe.

    It isn't a union, whatever the name says. The Eurozone is, but the bit we're in, isn't.

    The sooner we rationalise Eurozone, EU, EFTA back down to two - one a union, one a free trade area - the better.

  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    watford30 said:

    hunchman said:

    watford30 said:

    perdix said:

    hunchman said:

    Good article on the Panama papers that is getting closer to the nub of it all. They stop short of mentioning 788 790 Finchley Road and the interlocking addresses, but it takes things a step further:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/panama-papers-reveal-london-centre-spiders-173713142.html

    One of my sources has mentioned that there was a protest march in London today with regard to the Panama papers - does anyone have any further information about this? No mention in the mainstream media about this of course!

    Well we had a typical smoke and mirrors job from Cameron yesterday, not once but four times. Wes Streeting is quite right, until Cameron publishes all his tax returns going back to and including the 2010/11 tax year he has no hope of shutting this down. And depending on how quickly any inheritance disbursement from Blairmore Holdings fell into his lap, he has to publish back to 2010/11. Charles Walker was well and truly bested by Streeting and Jon Snow on Channel 4 News earlier this evening.

    Now yesterday, I mentioned about the Carroll Trust. Nothing very much is really known about the demise of the Carroll Trust, but the trust set up in 1986 which had 85 companies in it, was at one stage estimated to have a net worth of £250m. The following article tells some of the story about the collapse by 1993:

    http://nuclear-news.net/2013/06/23/david-cameron-tax-evasion-expose-security-service-cover-up/

    Why has no one to date been brought before the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) about the alleged fraud?

    What was the link between Smith Williamson Holdings and Blairmore Holdings and the Carroll Trust?

    What does Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe know about this?

    Why are the files in complete lockdown about this at the FBI in Washington and at Scotland Yard? I do wonder if anyone has tried to make an FOI request on these files, but I can guess what the response was.

    What a load of bollocks - "David Cameron's Blairmore trust"...
    Brought to you by a weird person.

    Still, it stops Hunchman posting about loopy chartist theories and the nutty fraudster cum antique coin salesman.
    Too bad again that you have such a closed mindset on the way the world works, and don't want to learn. I'm sure you'll want to read this article on Mossack Fonseca from the forecaster's forecaster, who's got more talent in his little finger than anything you posess:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/icijs-political-agenda-may-backfire/
    That's the guy. Lost his marbles in prison, whilst doing time for fraud, civil contempt, and conspiracy.
    So you agreed with what judge Owen did then?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,992
    chestnut said:

    kle4 said:

    chestnut said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    Understanding Russian feeling and 'appeasing' Putin are not the same thing.
    No they aren't, although to my mind we do see too much blame apportioned to the EU, an organization I want to leave, in the Ukraine situation on the grounds that of course this would happen due to EU ambitions being too high. Which may well be the case, and it would have been simpler all around if many Ukranians did not want a path which would upset Russia, but ultimately they can choose to try to join if they want, how much the EU is wrong to encourage that is really pretty irrelevant in how Russia has responded.
    In fairness to the Dutch - it is them who are voting after all - their judgement should be in the Dutch national interest - not Ukraine's, Russia's, the EU's.

    The EU is something I'm struggling to describe.

    It isn't a union, whatever the name says. The Eurozone is, but the bit we're in, isn't.

    The sooner we rationalise Eurozone, EU, EFTA back down to two - one a union, one a free trade area - the better.

    Agreed 100%.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    chestnut said:

    kle4 said:

    chestnut said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    Understanding Russian feeling and 'appeasing' Putin are not the same thing.
    No they aren't, although to my mind we do see too much blame apportioned to the EU, an organization I want to leave, in the Ukraine situation on the grounds that of course this would happen due to EU ambitions being too high. Which may well be the case, and it would have been simpler all around if many Ukranians did not want a path which would upset Russia, but ultimately they can choose to try to join if they want, how much the EU is wrong to encourage that is really pretty irrelevant in how Russia has responded.
    In fairness to the Dutch - it is them who are voting after all - their judgement should be in the Dutch national interest - not Ukraine's, Russia's, the EU's.

    The EU is something I'm struggling to describe.

    It isn't a union, whatever the name says. The Eurozone is, but the bit we're in, isn't.

    The sooner we rationalise Eurozone, EU, EFTA back down to two - one a union, one a free trade area - the better.

    It is pretty logical.

    And yet it is the fervent Remainers who accuse others of making embarrassingly self-serving comments.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Result (almost) from the Netherlands:

    Turnout: 32.1% after 98.5%

    38.2% Yes
    61% No

    No wins and the result is valid after surpassing the minimum 30% threshold. The government has to unratify(?) the EU-Ukraine trade deal.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    rcs1000 said:

    The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.

    Amusement aside, is that actually right? It's unclear to me (but may not be unclear to others) whether EFTA's existing trade agreements would be inherited by a state which joined EFTA now.
    Do nations that join the EU like Croatia in 2013 get excluded from the EU's existing trade deals? Is there any reason for it to be any different for new EFTA members?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,992
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    runnymede said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?
    The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.
    The interesting thing is the Russians clearly don't see EFTA as a threat, but they do see the EU as a threat. Which is of course because they correctly perceive that the EU is not really about trade, but empire building.
    The Russians want a fragmented Europe. It is in their interests to be the dominant power on Europe. No EU, no NATO, and them as r dominant energy supplier to the continent would be geopolitical mana from heaven for them.
    Honestly, Russian aggression is the only thing that might swing me into the remain camp, but I would want to eject the freeloaders and obstructionists at the same time.
    People on this board seem in total denial about how much trouble Russia is in. Average monthly earnings have dropped from $900 to $400 in just 18 months. Russian exports are now smaller than Belgium's, and are more than 80% commodities.

    Just as the commodity down cycle of the 1980s did for the USSR, it is highly likely this one will do for Putin's Russia.
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    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591

    Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

    Yet another post totally ignorant of the historical reality. Runnymede appreciates it, and so does ydoethur - I'll copy for you what he said as I agree with it in its entirety, and you could add that eastern Ukraine is around 80% ethnically Russian / Russian speaking:

    There is an awful lot of ignorance in Western Europe about Russia and the Ukraine. To sum up the key points:

    1) The Russians think of Ukraine as a province of Russia. It was, indeed, the place where Russia was created (the Duchy of Rus was first based in Kiev). They would see it joining the EU as the equivalent of Hampshire declaring independence and joining France.

    2) They therefore have enormous difficulty thinking of the Ukrainians as a separate people and entitled to make their separate decisions about what to do.

    3) They are also unnerved at the thought of a country next door to them, in the middle of a big, flat, grassy plain that runs pretty well all the way to Moscow, being controlled by someone else.
This discussion has been closed.