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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ladbrokes make Sir Keir Starmer favourite for Corbyn’s success

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited December 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ladbrokes make Sir Keir Starmer favourite for Corbyn’s successor

Sir Keir Starmer is 8/1 favourite to be next Labour leader. pic.twitter.com/UhMtxCzhnW

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    2 up.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    3rd - better than Labour :-)
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    I like Sir Keir, best thing Corbyn has done is make Starmer Shadow Brexit Secretary, it's like bringing a bazooka to a water pistol fight.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    edited December 2016
    I'm on Starmer at 20/1, and green on a number of others, so feeling ok on this at moment.

    Finding it difficult to believe Corbyn will survive the next three years, but who knows.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    edited December 2016
    8/1 is effectively a vacation of the field of Jarvis, Benn and Watson who have previously had shorter odds. It's not really a sign of strength in Starmer's chances.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Sir Kier Starmer is the most sensible person in the shadow cabinet by a long way, and also unusual in coming to politics late in life. He is untainted by the Blair/Brown/Miliband feuds of years passed, I think he would make a good LotO and appear much more as a PM in waiting than any other Labour MP right now. I got on at 10/1.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    An expensive new favourite of the week.

    Lay.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Sandpit said:

    Sir Kier Starmer is the most sensible person in the shadow cabinet by a long way, and also unusual in coming to politics late in life. He is untainted by the Blair/Brown/Miliband feuds of years passed, I think he would make a good LotO and appear much more as a PM in waiting than any other Labour MP right now. I got on at 10/1.

    But what has being sensible or good got to do with his chances for the next Labour leadership ?
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    Sandpit said:

    Sir Kier Starmer is the most sensible person in the shadow cabinet by a long way, and also unusual in coming to politics late in life. He is untainted by the Blair/Brown/Miliband feuds of years passed, I think he would make a good LotO and appear much more as a PM in waiting than any other Labour MP right now. I got on at 10/1.

    All very good reasons why the dolts in the Labour party will not want to elect him.

    Why doesn't he f* off and join the Tories etc etc...
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Sandpit said:

    Sir Kier Starmer is the most sensible person in the shadow cabinet by a long way, and also unusual in coming to politics late in life. He is untainted by the Blair/Brown/Miliband feuds of years passed, I think he would make a good LotO and appear much more as a PM in waiting than any other Labour MP right now. I got on at 10/1.

    The views of him that his staff at the CPS had suggest that the L part of ofO is not his forte.
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    I'm neutral on Keir Starmer relative to the field (which means I'm heavily green on him). @Pulpstar might well be right that he should be laid but I am slightly wary that Sir Keir might be an effective unity candidate.
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    Len won't lose, but if by some glorious miracle he does then Corbyn is finished. Lisa Nandy looks great value to me as she is to the left of Starmer and a woman - and everyone in Labour is very, very conscious that the party has yet to have a female leader. I'd say that if she stands, she wins. McDonnell has no chance at all this side of a general election.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sir Kier Starmer is the most sensible person in the shadow cabinet by a long way, and also unusual in coming to politics late in life. He is untainted by the Blair/Brown/Miliband feuds of years passed, I think he would make a good LotO and appear much more as a PM in waiting than any other Labour MP right now. I got on at 10/1.

    The views of him that his staff at the CPS had suggest that the L part of ofO is not his forte.
    But these things are all comparative, and I'd stick my neck out and say that he is a giant among the current Shadow Cabinet.
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    Len won't lose, but if by some glorious miracle he does then Corbyn is finished. Lisa Nandy looks great value to me as she is to the left of Starmer and a woman - and everyone in Labour is very, very conscious that the party has yet to have a female leader. I'd say that if she stands, she wins. McDonnell has no chance at all this side of a general election.

    I'm on Nandy at 18/1 but she strikes me as being a bit too young and inexperienced for the top job at this stage.
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    Len won't lose, but if by some glorious miracle he does then Corbyn is finished. Lisa Nandy looks great value to me as she is to the left of Starmer and a woman - and everyone in Labour is very, very conscious that the party has yet to have a female leader. I'd say that if she stands, she wins. McDonnell has no chance at all this side of a general election.

    I'm on Nandy at 18/1 but she strikes me as being a bit too young and inexperienced for the top job at this stage.
    She's not going for the top job, she's going for LotO. Clearly ambitious for it and the way she stood back and pushed Owen Smith into the firing line was masterful.
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    Len won't lose, but if by some glorious miracle he does then Corbyn is finished. Lisa Nandy looks great value to me as she is to the left of Starmer and a woman - and everyone in Labour is very, very conscious that the party has yet to have a female leader. I'd say that if she stands, she wins. McDonnell has no chance at all this side of a general election.

    I'm on Nandy at 18/1 but she strikes me as being a bit too young and inexperienced for the top job at this stage.
    What really matters is how effective she might turn out to be at organising/fighting/motivating a leadership election campaign. Youth and inexperience may weigh against her more heavily as an actual leader, than they would against her as a leadership election campaigner - particularly given the demographics of the selectorate.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Lisa Nandy, silent on her education and the work of her Liberal MP grandfather.
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    Len won't lose, but if by some glorious miracle he does then Corbyn is finished. Lisa Nandy looks great value to me as she is to the left of Starmer and a woman - and everyone in Labour is very, very conscious that the party has yet to have a female leader. I'd say that if she stands, she wins. McDonnell has no chance at all this side of a general election.

    I'm on Nandy at 18/1 but she strikes me as being a bit too young and inexperienced for the top job at this stage.
    What really matters is how effective she might turn out to be at organising/fighting/motivating a leadership election campaign. Youth and inexperience may weigh against her more heavily as an actual leader, than they would against her as a leadership election campaigner - particularly given the demographics of the selectorate.
    Fair point.

    Frankly anyone, other than McD, Abbott or Thornberry would be good news for the country which needs an opposition.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,616
    Jezza won't quit unless there is a candidate to the left of Starmer guaranteed a place on the ballot. In that situation, I don't see how Starmer wins
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,812
    edited December 2016
    Slightly off-topic, permit another of my layman's rambles pondering the legal minutiae on Brexit.

    Regarding the 'Irish' case, which asks whether Article 50 has already been triggered (a leading question to which the answer will surely be 'no') and if not questions the legitimacy of British exclusion from some EU sessions including any sessions by which the 26 are pre-negotiating the Brexit position amongst themselves. My first thought was that it was a nothing amongst the possible legal challenges, it was testing a point of law, but it was not clear to me who would be the complainant and against what. Common sense / natural justice also surely suggested that the EU26 are permitted to, indeed would be foolish not to, prepare a position prior to an anticipated A50 trigger.

    However, the case will be decided in European law with perhaps less scope for interpretation, and if the rules do not actually foresee or allow such pre-positioning, I see a line of argument which just might blow the EU approach to Brexit to smithereens.

    Effectively, it is that the EU may have already fatally prejudiced any Brexit process by excluding the UK and acting as a 26. Now, given that the UK retains every right to call A50 at any time, anything the EU sets down from any pre-A50 discussion could be ruled prejudicial. Any diminuition at all of UK trade access beyond that which the EU treaties can legally enforce if it had been previously discussed might also be deemed prejudicial. So, the EU could continue to insist on freedom of movement for total access as a treaty requirement without problem. But were the EU to negotiate any trade restriction whatsoever beyond legal necessity off the back of a prejudiced process, and costs were incurred by EU based companies (including services companies and banking institutions) as a result then every single one of them would be knocking on the EU's door for full recompense.

    If this is the case, and I may be talking about a very remote possibility here, not least because the final judgement will likely come from the ECJ, then he British hand in A50 negotiation may have suddenly become stronger than even the most bullish Brexiteer could have ever imagined.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    edited December 2016
    Allow me to recommend this superb article on Keir Starmer and his political future (great first paragraph):

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/09/joff-wild-says-keep-an-eye-on-keir/
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    Len won't lose, but if by some glorious miracle he does then Corbyn is finished. Lisa Nandy looks great value to me as she is to the left of Starmer and a woman - and everyone in Labour is very, very conscious that the party has yet to have a female leader. I'd say that if she stands, she wins. McDonnell has no chance at all this side of a general election.

    Do you think Nandy would beat Lewis? I don't know what the answer to that is.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282
    edited December 2016
    Basically Starmer can stand up and come up with some commentary that doesn't immediately seem ridiculous to the majority of the audience. If this is the bar you have to jump (gently step) over to become favourite for next Labour Party leader, I somehow suspect this isn't really a comment about him.
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Jezza won't quit unless there is a candidate to the left of Starmer guaranteed a place on the ballot. In that situation, I don't see how Starmer wins

    Agreed.

    The cult currently in control of the Labour Party is resilient and will withstand even the most brutal shellacking at the next election.
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    Jezza won't quit unless there is a candidate to the left of Starmer guaranteed a place on the ballot. In that situation, I don't see how Starmer wins

    Unless sense returns to the membership, perhaps as some of the clicktivists drift away over the next few months.
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    What are the odds on Owen Smith? :InnocentFace
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,616

    What are the odds on Owen Smith? :InnocentFace

    About the same as Owen Jones.
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    What are the odds on Owen Smith? :InnocentFace

    About the same as Owen Jones.
    .. so too short, then.
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    What are the odds on Owen Smith? :InnocentFace

    He is 25.0 to lay on Betfair but those nice folk at @bet365 will give you 33/1. Your size.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited December 2016

    Allow me to recommend this superb article on Keir Starmer and his political future (great first paragraph):

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/09/joff-wild-says-keep-an-eye-on-keir/

    The bit about the Trump campaign imploding? ;)

    Seriously, that was a good article though. Hopefully Labour can drag themselves out of the mess they're in and start properly opposing the government sometime soon. Starmer would be a very good candidate for that role.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sandpit said:

    Sir Kier Starmer is the most sensible person in the shadow cabinet by a long way, and also unusual in coming to politics late in life. He is untainted by the Blair/Brown/Miliband feuds of years passed, I think he would make a good LotO and appear much more as a PM in waiting than any other Labour MP right now. I got on at 10/1.

    My mother knew him very well when he was DPP (she was the senior magistrate nationally at the time). I can't report what she has told me but safe to say he's the sort of man who shouldn't be anywhere near the levers of power.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited December 2016

    I'm neutral on Keir Starmer relative to the field (which means I'm heavily green on him). @Pulpstar might well be right that he should be laid but I am slightly wary that Sir Keir might be an effective unity candidate.

    @AlastairMeeks I'm not saying he has no chance, I just don't see particularly why he should be sub 10 to 1 ahead of plenty of others.

    Here is my book for full discolsure right now:

    +20.1 Nandy
    -1 Starmer
    +5.9 Watson
    -4.8 D Miliband
    +4.1 Benn
    +12.1 McDonnell
    +2.2 Jarvis
    +0.3 Smith
    +2.8 A Eagle
    +4.1 Other
    +12.7 Lewis
    +5.5 Ed Miliband
    +1.7 Chuka
    +2.2 Burnham
    +4.4 Cooper
    +3.3 Kinnock
    +23.6 Burgon
    +10.6 Thornberry
    +47.2 M Eagle
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    I think Tom Watson is worth backing, if you're not already on him.

    If he can topple a successful leader like Tony Blair, then toppling Corbyn should be easier.

    Though he who wields the dagger.....
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282

    Allow me to recommend this superb article on Keir Starmer and his political future (great first paragraph):

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/09/joff-wild-says-keep-an-eye-on-keir/

    'If he isn't first for the boot, he's an outside bet?'

    Doesn't exactly sound like you are putting your life savings on him, Mr Observer?
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999
    IanB2 said:

    Basically Starmer can stand up and come up with some commentary that doesn't immediately seem ridiculous to the majority of the audience. If this is the bar you have to jump (gently step) over to become favourite for next Labour Party leader, I somehow suspect this isn't really a comment about him.


    Labour can't go for another middle aged white man can they? They will have to go for BME or a woman. So SKS is poor value at any odds you like.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    SeanT said:

    Anyone in need of a good Christmas cry, start here

    http://boingboing.net/2016/12/12/terminally-ill-boy-who-asked-f.html

    Man. Don't read that in public!
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited December 2016
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sir Kier Starmer is the most sensible person in the shadow cabinet by a long way, and also unusual in coming to politics late in life. He is untainted by the Blair/Brown/Miliband feuds of years passed, I think he would make a good LotO and appear much more as a PM in waiting than any other Labour MP right now. I got on at 10/1.

    My mother knew him very well when he was DPP (she was the senior magistrate nationally at the time). I can't report what she has told me but safe to say he's the sort of man who shouldn't be anywhere near the levers of power.
    More so than Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Diane Abbott, Emily Thornberry etc? 'Cos they're the choices right now for Labour!
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    What are the odds on Owen Smith? :InnocentFace

    Owen who? :lol:
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    In 2015 I paid my £3 and voted for Corbyn, but I couldn't be bothered this year!
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    FPT

    Not sure why OGH included Richmond Park, as the Cons (officially) and UKIP stood aside.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Pulpstar said:

    I'm neutral on Keir Starmer relative to the field (which means I'm heavily green on him). @Pulpstar might well be right that he should be laid but I am slightly wary that Sir Keir might be an effective unity candidate.

    @AlastairMeeks I'm not saying he has no chance, I just don't see particularly why he should be sub 10 to 1 ahead of plenty of others.

    Here is my book for full discolsure right now:

    +20.1 Nandy
    -1 Starmer
    +5.9 Watson
    -4.8 D Miliband
    +4.1 Benn
    +12.1 McDonnell
    +2.2 Jarvis
    +0.3 Smith
    +2.8 A Eagle
    +4.1 Other
    +12.7 Lewis
    +5.5 Ed Miliband
    +1.7 Chuka
    +2.2 Burnham
    +4.4 Cooper
    +3.3 Kinnock
    +23.6 Burgon
    +10.6 Thornberry
    +47.2 M Eagle
    That's a bloody good book! Well done.
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    Len won't lose, but if by some glorious miracle he does then Corbyn is finished. Lisa Nandy looks great value to me as she is to the left of Starmer and a woman - and everyone in Labour is very, very conscious that the party has yet to have a female leader. I'd say that if she stands, she wins. McDonnell has no chance at all this side of a general election.

    Do you think Nandy would beat Lewis? I don't know what the answer to that is.

    I do. I am not even sure Lewis would run against her. The lack of a female leader up to now is a very big factor IMO.

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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited December 2016
    Just checked my Betfair account. I seem to be red on Owen Smith, Hilary Benn and David Miliband, green on John McDonnell, Keir Starmer, Tom Watson and Clive Lewis, and pretty much neutral on everyone else. I'm very happy with that for the moment.
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    IanB2 said:

    Allow me to recommend this superb article on Keir Starmer and his political future (great first paragraph):

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/09/joff-wild-says-keep-an-eye-on-keir/

    'If he isn't first for the boot, he's an outside bet?'

    Doesn't exactly sound like you are putting your life savings on him, Mr Observer?

    I think he is an outside bet, not a favourite.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited December 2016
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sir Kier Starmer is the most sensible person in the shadow cabinet by a long way, and also unusual in coming to politics late in life. He is untainted by the Blair/Brown/Miliband feuds of years passed, I think he would make a good LotO and appear much more as a PM in waiting than any other Labour MP right now. I got on at 10/1.

    My mother knew him very well when he was DPP (she was the senior magistrate nationally at the time). I can't report what she has told me but safe to say he's the sort of man who shouldn't be anywhere near the levers of power.
    More so than Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Diane Abbott, Emily Thornberry etc? 'Cos they're the choices right now for Labour!
    Yes. But without evidence I wouldn't want to put OGH at risk. The legal profession is quite rich enough without me contributing some more.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    In 2015 I paid my £3 and voted for Corbyn, but I couldn't be bothered this year!

    We knew he was such an amazing candidate that he could win without our help this time :)

    Anyway if everyone in the contest had followed my lead, Liz Kendall would have become the Leader and Labour would be polling 30+ %
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    I think Tom Watson is worth backing, if you're not already on him.

    If he can topple a successful leader like Tony Blair, then toppling Corbyn should be easier.

    Though he who wields the dagger.....

    I think the events of this summer have proved that Watson isn't all he's cracked up to be.

    Mind you I still have some money on him from that time.
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    Mr. Eagles, Blair half-toppled himself, and the man who was to succeed him had a position of unassailable strength within the PLP.

    Mr. Observer, it's a bit sad that gender is rated so highly as a factor.
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    I present my online Xmas shopping woes before the PB sages in the hopes of some judicious advice.

    Couple of years ago I relied heavily on Amazon - decent prices (not always the best, but rarely extortionate), seriously impressive selection of goods (almost anything on the to-buy list can be found there), free delivery for a big shop.

    But their model has become increasingly bazaar-like, and one is often not buying from Amazon themselves at all, even if the order is "fulfilled" by Amazon. This is producing some minor annoyances (e.g. if the order is fulfilled by someone else, then it buggers about with the free delivery). But more importantly than that, I've almost completely lost my trust that I'm buying what it says I'm buying.

    The electronic goods, particularly things like accessories and spare parts, are full of counterfeits and knock-offs. I wanted to buy some ink refills for my best pen - picture might look the real deal, but the one-star and two-star comments about packaging, quality and reliability issues indicate all is not as it seems. I've bought textbooks that turned out to be flown over from India - cheap "international student editions", obviously marked as "not for resale" in the West, with atrocious printing quality.

    It feels increasingly like shopping on ebay, another outlet I've largely abandoned. I now do serious amounts of research before countenancing buying even the cheap stuff on Amazon, and often hold back due to uncertainty anyway (tricky when you can't inspect the stock, and reviewer comments indicate the item may originally have been sold as genuine article with watermarks etc, before the supplier switched to selling fakes). The value of my time is fairly high these days. It's pointless for me to do all this research to save a couple of pounds - just as daft as coupon-clipping for someone in my situation.

    Is there some way to shop in an Amazon "safe-zone", and get all the rubbish or grey areas filtered out? Or some other online venue which is less problematic?
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    Boris getting quite angry in Commons over lack of action due to 2013 vote on Syria.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited December 2016
    Sandpit said:

    Snip
    That's a bloody good book! Well done.

    Yes but its very long term, the market normally has the pace of a very slow snail about it.

    Starmer should head off to 20+ at some point again I reckon.

    The new Dan Jarvis/Hillary Benn.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,718
    As almost the only politician talking sense on Brexit (excluding May, Davis, Johnson, Farron, Corbyn and most others), Kier Starmer would make a good choice as an interim leader I think. Brexit would define Labour, but it doesn't have anything else going for it at the moment, and Brexit will be the main political topic for a long time to come. Quiet competence in contrast with the government on the one topic would help distract from lack of substance in other areas,
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    I present my online Xmas shopping woes before the PB sages in the hopes of some judicious advice.

    Couple of years ago I relied heavily on Amazon - decent prices (not always the best, but rarely extortionate), seriously impressive selection of goods (almost anything on the to-buy list can be found there), free delivery for a big shop.

    But their model has become increasingly bazaar-like, and one is often not buying from Amazon themselves at all, even if the order is "fulfilled" by Amazon. This is producing some minor annoyances (e.g. if the order is fulfilled by someone else, then it buggers about with the free delivery). But more importantly than that, I've almost completely lost my trust that I'm buying what it says I'm buying.

    The electronic goods, particularly things like accessories and spare parts, are full of counterfeits and knock-offs. I wanted to buy some ink refills for my best pen - picture might look the real deal, but the one-star and two-star comments about packaging, quality and reliability issues indicate all is not as it seems. I've bought textbooks that turned out to be flown over from India - cheap "international student editions", obviously marked as "not for resale" in the West, with atrocious printing quality.

    It feels increasingly like shopping on ebay, another outlet I've largely abandoned. I now do serious amounts of research before countenancing buying even the cheap stuff on Amazon, and often hold back due to uncertainty anyway (tricky when you can't inspect the stock, and reviewer comments indicate the item may originally have been sold as genuine article with watermarks etc, before the supplier switched to selling fakes). The value of my time is fairly high these days. It's pointless for me to do all this research to save a couple of pounds - just as daft as coupon-clipping for someone in my situation.

    Is there some way to shop in an Amazon "safe-zone", and get all the rubbish or grey areas filtered out? Or some other online venue which is less problematic?

    I've stopped buying from Amazon so pissed off with the fake stuff.

    Ordered some Paco Rabanne 1 million and Jean Paul Gaultier Eau de Toilette what I got was something that smelt like watered down dog piss.

    You could tell from the packaging it was fake.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sir Kier Starmer is the most sensible person in the shadow cabinet by a long way, and also unusual in coming to politics late in life. He is untainted by the Blair/Brown/Miliband feuds of years passed, I think he would make a good LotO and appear much more as a PM in waiting than any other Labour MP right now. I got on at 10/1.

    My mother knew him very well when he was DPP (she was the senior magistrate nationally at the time). I can't report what she has told me but safe to say he's the sort of man who shouldn't be anywhere near the levers of power.
    More so than Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Diane Abbott, Emily Thornberry etc? 'Cos they're the choices right now for Labour!
    Yes. But without evidence I wouldn't want to put OGH at risk. The legal profession is quite rich enough without me contributing some more.
    I'll take your word for it then, we don't want to see OGH in trouble with m'learned friends.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,995
    Pro_Rata said:

    Slightly off-topic, permit another of my layman's rambles pondering the legal minutiae on Brexit.

    Regarding the 'Irish' case, which asks whether Article 50 has already been triggered (a leading question to which the answer will surely be 'no') and if not questions the legitimacy of British exclusion from some EU sessions including any sessions by which the 26 are pre-negotiating the Brexit position amongst themselves. My first thought was that it was a nothing amongst the possible legal challenges, it was testing a point of law, but it was not clear to me who would be the complainant and against what. Common sense / natural justice also surely suggested that the EU26 are permitted to, indeed would be foolish not to, prepare a position prior to an anticipated A50 trigger.

    However, the case will be decided in European law with perhaps less scope for interpretation, and if the rules do not actually foresee or allow such pre-positioning, I see a line of argument which just might blow the EU approach to Brexit to smithereens.

    Effectively, it is that the EU may have already fatally prejudiced any Brexit process by excluding the UK and acting as a 26. Now, given that the UK retains every right to call A50 at any time, anything the EU sets down from any pre-A50 discussion could be ruled prejudicial. Any diminuition at all of UK trade access beyond that which the EU treaties can legally enforce if it had been previously discussed might also be deemed prejudicial. So, the EU could continue to insist on freedom of movement for total access as a treaty requirement without problem. But were the EU to negotiate any trade restriction whatsoever beyond legal necessity off the back of a prejudiced process, and costs were incurred by EU based companies (including services companies and banking institutions) as a result then every single one of them would be knocking on the EU's door for full recompense.

    If this is the case, and I may be talking about a very remote possibility here, not least because the final judgement will likely come from the ECJ, then he British hand in A50 negotiation may have suddenly become stronger than even the most bullish Brexiteer could have ever imagined.

    Interesting, albeit I'm not sure I fully agree
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    JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    Seeing as there is no outstanding candidate to succeed Corbyn, any one of the PLP could have an equal chance of becoming leader. The fact that a cold fish like Starmer is rated so highly proves how much trouble Labour is in.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    One thing about Sir Keir, his seat is very safe indeed.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282

    IanB2 said:

    Allow me to recommend this superb article on Keir Starmer and his political future (great first paragraph):

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/09/joff-wild-says-keep-an-eye-on-keir/

    'If he isn't first for the boot, he's an outside bet?'

    Doesn't exactly sound like you are putting your life savings on him, Mr Observer?

    I think he is an outside bet, not a favourite.

    Agreed. But then there are so many others.
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    On topic, surely McClusky will win? Turnout in these sort of elections is generally appalling so that only the committed will vote, and the Corbynites are committed. Also McClusky has the name recognition. You'd also assume that he wouldn't be pulling this stunt unless he was almost certain it'd work (though that doesn't necessarily mean that his judgement id right).
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,812
    rcs1000 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Slightly off-topic, permit another of my layman's rambles pondering the legal minutiae on Brexit.

    Regarding the 'Irish' case, which asks whether Article 50 has already been triggered (a leading question to which the answer will surely be 'no') and if not questions the legitimacy of British exclusion from some EU sessions including any sessions by which the 26 are pre-negotiating the Brexit position amongst themselves. My first thought was that it was a nothing amongst the possible legal challenges, it was testing a point of law, but it was not clear to me who would be the complainant and against what. Common sense / natural justice also surely suggested that the EU26 are permitted to, indeed would be foolish not to, prepare a position prior to an anticipated A50 trigger.

    However, the case will be decided in European law with perhaps less scope for interpretation, and if the rules do not actually foresee or allow such pre-positioning, I see a line of argument which just might blow the EU approach to Brexit to smithereens.

    Effectively, it is that the EU may have already fatally prejudiced any Brexit process by excluding the UK and acting as a 26. Now, given that the UK retains every right to call A50 at any time, anything the EU sets down from any pre-A50 discussion could be ruled prejudicial. Any diminuition at all of UK trade access beyond that which the EU treaties can legally enforce if it had been previously discussed might also be deemed prejudicial. So, the EU could continue to insist on freedom of movement for total access as a treaty requirement without problem. But were the EU to negotiate any trade restriction whatsoever beyond legal necessity off the back of a prejudiced process, and costs were incurred by EU based companies (including services companies and banking institutions) as a result then every single one of them would be knocking on the EU's door for full recompense.

    If this is the case, and I may be talking about a very remote possibility here, not least because the final judgement will likely come from the ECJ, then he British hand in A50 negotiation may have suddenly become stronger than even the most bullish Brexiteer could have ever imagined.

    Interesting, albeit I'm not sure I fully agree
    I'm not sure I fully agree either, which is why I caveat it so much.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,718
    edited December 2016
    Pro_Rata said:

    Slightly off-topic, permit another of my layman's rambles pondering the legal minutiae on Brexit.

    Regarding the 'Irish' case, which asks whether Article 50 has already been triggered (a leading question to which the answer will surely be 'no') and if not questions the legitimacy of British exclusion from some EU sessions including any sessions by which the 26 are pre-negotiating the Brexit position amongst themselves. My first thought was that it was a nothing amongst the possible legal challenges, it was testing a point of law, but it was not clear to me who would be the complainant and against what. Common sense / natural justice also surely suggested that the EU26 are permitted to, indeed would be foolish not to, prepare a position prior to an anticipated A50 trigger.

    However, the case will be decided in European law with perhaps less scope for interpretation, and if the rules do not actually foresee or allow such pre-positioning, I see a line of argument which just might blow the EU approach to Brexit to smithereens.

    Effectively, it is that the EU may have already fatally prejudiced any Brexit process by excluding the UK and acting as a 26. Now, given that the UK retains every right to call A50 at any time, anything the EU sets down from any pre-A50 discussion could be ruled prejudicial. Any diminuition at all of UK trade access beyond that which the EU treaties can legally enforce if it had been previously discussed might also be deemed prejudicial. So, the EU could continue to insist on freedom of movement for total access as a treaty requirement without problem. But were the EU to negotiate any trade restriction whatsoever beyond legal necessity off the back of a prejudiced process, and costs were incurred by EU based companies (including services companies and banking institutions) as a result then every single one of them would be knocking on the EU's door for full recompense.

    If this is the case, and I may be talking about a very remote possibility here, not least because the final judgement will likely come from the ECJ, then he British hand in A50 negotiation may have suddenly become stronger than even the most bullish Brexiteer could have ever imagined.

    @rcs1000 Interesting, albeit I'm not sure I fully agree.

    Seems to be overinterpreting, although I am no expert on EU law.

    The Article 50 Exit Agreement will be decided by majority vote in EU Parliament and QMV in the European Council. Even if the UK vote has to be included in the Council QMV tally, it won't change the result in practice. The fact of the UK leaving two years after calling Article 50, with whatever Exit Agreement is decided on, is set out in the Article and is non-negotiable.

    AND EDIT: The whole point of an Agreement is that is agreed. there is no reason for the UK to vote against something it has agreed.
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    Pro_Rata said:

    Regarding the 'Irish' case, which asks whether Article 50 has already been triggered (a leading question to which the answer will surely be 'no') and if not questions the legitimacy of British exclusion from some EU sessions including any sessions by which the 26 are pre-negotiating the Brexit position amongst themselves.

    Given that Jean-Claude Juncker appointed Michel Barnier to be chief negotiator, when Articles 50 (2) and 218 (3) of the Lisbon Treaty state that the appointment can only be made by the European Council after the withdrawing country has served notice, I think we're well beyond the question of legitimacy. Still, it puts the argument that the EU would definitely have respected Cameron's renegotiation well and truly into context.

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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,616

    On topic, surely McClusky will win? Turnout in these sort of elections is generally appalling so that only the committed will vote, and the Corbynites are committed. Also McClusky has the name recognition. You'd also assume that he wouldn't be pulling this stunt unless he was almost certain it'd work (though that doesn't necessarily mean that his judgement id right).

    "Len McClusky cares more about keeping Jeremy Corbyn in his job than keeping you in your job" might have some traction with members in the defence sector.
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    I present my online Xmas shopping woes before the PB sages in the hopes of some judicious advice.

    Couple of years ago I relied heavily on Amazon - decent prices (not always the best, but rarely extortionate), seriously impressive selection of goods (almost anything on the to-buy list can be found there), free delivery for a big shop.

    But their model has become increasingly bazaar-like, and one is often not buying from Amazon themselves at all, even if the order is "fulfilled" by Amazon. This is producing some minor annoyances (e.g. if the order is fulfilled by someone else, then it buggers about with the free delivery). But more importantly than that, I've almost completely lost my trust that I'm buying what it says I'm buying.

    The electronic goods, particularly things like accessories and spare parts, are full of counterfeits and knock-offs. I wanted to buy some ink refills for my best pen - picture might look the real deal, but the one-star and two-star comments about packaging, quality and reliability issues indicate all is not as it seems. I've bought textbooks that turned out to be flown over from India - cheap "international student editions", obviously marked as "not for resale" in the West, with atrocious printing quality.

    It feels increasingly like shopping on ebay, another outlet I've largely abandoned. I now do serious amounts of research before countenancing buying even the cheap stuff on Amazon, and often hold back due to uncertainty anyway (tricky when you can't inspect the stock, and reviewer comments indicate the item may originally have been sold as genuine article with watermarks etc, before the supplier switched to selling fakes). The value of my time is fairly high these days. It's pointless for me to do all this research to save a couple of pounds - just as daft as coupon-clipping for someone in my situation.

    Is there some way to shop in an Amazon "safe-zone", and get all the rubbish or grey areas filtered out? Or some other online venue which is less problematic?

    I ordered some Sensodyne toothbrushes the other week - Amazon charged £4 postage on a £10 order, but one of their associated "sellers" gave free delivery, so I ordered from them!
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    FF43 said:

    As almost the only politician talking sense on Brexit (excluding May, Davis, Johnson, Farron, Corbyn and most others), Kier Starmer would make a good choice as an interim leader I think. Brexit would define Labour, but it doesn't have anything else going for it at the moment, and Brexit will be the main political topic for a long time to come. Quiet competence in contrast with the government on the one topic would help distract from lack of substance in other areas,

    As I said this morning I have been quite impressed by Stephen Kinnock recently. He seems a lot calmer and more rational than his father. Whilst you don't get the soaring rhetoric he comes across as a credible figure and he has a lot of name recognition too.

    This is a pretty shallow pond. Even minnows are in with a shout.
  • Options

    On topic, surely McClusky will win? Turnout in these sort of elections is generally appalling so that only the committed will vote, and the Corbynites are committed. Also McClusky has the name recognition. You'd also assume that he wouldn't be pulling this stunt unless he was almost certain it'd work (though that doesn't necessarily mean that his judgement id right).

    "Len McClusky cares more about keeping Jeremy Corbyn in his job than keeping you in your job" might have some traction with members in the defence sector.

    Let's not forget that Jeremy also wants to get rid of petrol powered cars now. That may not be a huge vote winner for Len among Unite's auto industry members.

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    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about Sir Keir, his seat is very safe indeed.

    Will you lay me 100/1 the Lib Dems then? :)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about Sir Keir, his seat is very safe indeed.

    Will you lay me 100/1 the Lib Dems then? :)
    Not 100-1, £10 @ 20s if you like.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The key is getting tommorow's paper delivered a day early. My newsagent refuses to do this, perhaps because he knows that I am not Jewish.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,718

    Pro_Rata said:

    Regarding the 'Irish' case, which asks whether Article 50 has already been triggered (a leading question to which the answer will surely be 'no') and if not questions the legitimacy of British exclusion from some EU sessions including any sessions by which the 26 are pre-negotiating the Brexit position amongst themselves.

    Given that Jean-Claude Juncker appointed Michel Barnier to be chief negotiator, when Articles 50 (2) and 218 (3) of the Lisbon Treaty state that the appointment can only be made by the European Council after the withdrawing country has served notice, I think we're well beyond the question of legitimacy. Still, it puts the argument that the EU would definitely have respected Cameron's renegotiation well and truly into context.

    Don't see the issue. The President of the European Commission can employ whoever he likes. There can't be any actual negotiations until Britain calls Article 50 at which point the European Council will tell the Commission what it is looking for and ask the Commission to put a policy together. That policy then goes back to the Council for their decision. Barnier won't be deciding the deal. The Council will do that. But his team will do the detailed legwork.
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    The key is getting tommorow's paper delivered a day early. My newsagent refuses to do this, perhaps because he knows that I am not Jewish.
    I'm kinda Jewish.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    I'm very prepared to convert to Judaism if it means I can get hold of tommorows' Racing Post today.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,616

    The key is getting tommorow's paper delivered a day early. My newsagent refuses to do this, perhaps because he knows that I am not Jewish.
    Chap walks in to a newsagents in the far north of Scotland and asks for a newspaper.

    "Would you like yesterday's paper or today's?"

    "Today's please"

    "You'd better come back tomorrow then!"
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    The key is getting tommorow's paper delivered a day early. My newsagent refuses to do this, perhaps because he knows that I am not Jewish.
    That's how Trump, alias Biff, did it. Back to the future isn't a film it's a documentary made in 2016.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,444
    edited December 2016
    The other thing when betting on this market you should consider is how safe is the MP's seat, if Labour are shellacked at a general election, it could be like the Tory leadership election where some of the the contenders loses their seats, including the favourite, a la Michael Portillo*

    *I'm fairly certain I read in a book that Michael Portillo was the favourite to succeed John Major at 12pm on the May 1st 1997
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about Sir Keir, his seat is very safe indeed.

    Will you lay me 100/1 the Lib Dems then? :)
    Not 100-1, £10 @ 20s if you like.
    Worth considering? Local streets have been awash recently with remainers' tears, and the LibDems have a decent track record in both Camden and Islington.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    As if the current Labour members would vote for Starmer.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Corbyn writes to the PM re Syria.

    https://twitter.com/gsoh31/status/808703653917982720

    Has someone broken his fingers to get him to sign that.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about Sir Keir, his seat is very safe indeed.

    Will you lay me 100/1 the Lib Dems then? :)
    Not 100-1, £10 @ 20s if you like.
    Worth considering? Local streets have been awash recently with remainers' tears, and the LibDems have a decent track record in both Camden and Islington.
    Say "Done" if you want it, I'll take the first tenner. Don't want to rack up excessive liability on the seat so whoever wants it first and says so gets it.
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    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about Sir Keir, his seat is very safe indeed.

    Will you lay me 100/1 the Lib Dems then? :)
    Not 100-1, £10 @ 20s if you like.
    Worth considering? Local streets have been awash recently with remainers' tears, and the LibDems have a decent track record in both Camden and Islington.
    I'll leave that. But the LDs should rebound strongly there having been ferociously squeezed both by their own record in coalition and by Natalie Bennett standing for the Greens.

    Result from 2010: Lab 46 LD 28 Con 20.

    There are boundary changes planned too.
  • Options

    The other thing when betting on this market you should consider is how safe is the MP's seat, if Labour are shellacked at a general election, it could be like the Tory leadership election where some of the the contenders loses their seats, including the favourite, a la Michael Portillo*

    *I'm fairly certain I read in a book that Michael Portillo was the favourite to succeed John Major at 12pm on the May 1st 1997

    But if it weren't for said shellacking, we wouldn't have had Great British Railway Journeys!
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    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about Sir Keir, his seat is very safe indeed.

    Will you lay me 100/1 the Lib Dems then? :)
    Not 100-1, £10 @ 20s if you like.
    Worth considering? Local streets have been awash recently with remainers' tears, and the LibDems have a decent track record in both Camden and Islington.
    Say "Done" if you want it, I'll take the first tenner. Don't want to rack up excessive liability on the seat so whoever wants it first and says so gets it.
    surely you want your entire life savings resting on a single seat elected in four years

    In 2015 it would have been my biggest loss, except the parishner isn't around to collect.
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,812
    FF43 said:

    Pro_Rata said:


    Regarding the 'Irish' case.....I see a line of argument which just might blow the EU approach to Brexit to smithereens.

    Effectively, it is that the EU may have already fatally prejudiced any Brexit process by excluding the UK and acting as a 26. Now, given that the UK retains every right to call A50 at any time, anything the EU sets down from any pre-A50 discussion could be ruled prejudicial. Any diminuition at all of UK trade access beyond that which the EU treaties can legally enforce if it had been previously discussed might also be deemed prejudicial. So, the EU could continue to insist on freedom of movement for total access as a treaty requirement without problem. But were the EU to negotiate any trade restriction whatsoever beyond legal necessity off the back of a prejudiced process, and costs were incurred by EU based companies (including services companies and banking institutions) as a result then every single one of them would be knocking on the EU's door for full recompense.

    If this is the case, and I may be talking about a very remote possibility here, not least because the final judgement will likely come from the ECJ, then he British hand in A50 negotiation may have suddenly become stronger than even the most bullish Brexiteer could have ever imagined.

    @rcs1000 Interesting, albeit I'm not sure I fully agree.

    Seems to be overinterpreting, although I am no expert on EU law.

    The Article 50 Exit Agreement will be decided by majority vote in EU Parliament and QMV in the European Council. Even if the UK vote has to be included in the Council QMV tally, it won't change the result in practice. The fact of the UK leaving two years after calling Article 50, with whatever Exit Agreement is decided on, is set out in the Article and is non-negotiable.

    AND EDIT: The whole point of an Agreement is that is agreed. there is no reason for the UK to vote against something it has agreed.
    I wouldn't foresee it that parties to the agreement themselves would find their agreement illegitimate, it could be more that the EU could end up in the negotiation looking over their shoulder at what major EU based companies might make of a procedurally flawed and prejudiced agreement affecting their bottom line, and the extent to which the UK can take advantage of that weakness. And I'll admit, I am not sure to what extent and how difficult it would be for those companies to have recourse against a trade organisation./ superstate (delete as applicable).

    And the VCLT argument against A50 irreversibility will also call into question the fact of leaving being non-negotiable at some point, even if the Agreement itself remains non-negotiable.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited December 2016

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about Sir Keir, his seat is very safe indeed.

    Will you lay me 100/1 the Lib Dems then? :)
    Not 100-1, £10 @ 20s if you like.
    Worth considering? Local streets have been awash recently with remainers' tears, and the LibDems have a decent track record in both Camden and Islington.
    Say "Done" if you want it, I'll take the first tenner. Don't want to rack up excessive liability on the seat so whoever wants it first and says so gets it.
    surely you want your entire life savings resting on a single seat elected in four years

    In 2015 it would have been my biggest loss, except the parishner isn't around to collect.
    Knocker @Neil ?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about Sir Keir, his seat is very safe indeed.

    Will you lay me 100/1 the Lib Dems then? :)
    Not 100-1, £10 @ 20s if you like.
    Worth considering? Local streets have been awash recently with remainers' tears, and the LibDems have a decent track record in both Camden and Islington.
    I'll leave that. But the LDs should rebound strongly there having been ferociously squeezed both by their own record in coalition and by Natalie Bennett standing for the Greens.

    Result from 2010: Lab 46 LD 28 Con 20.

    There are boundary changes planned too.
    Beating the Greens in the new seat is our first challenge. Starmer looks off in the distance to me right now.
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about Sir Keir, his seat is very safe indeed.

    Will you lay me 100/1 the Lib Dems then? :)
    Not 100-1, £10 @ 20s if you like.
    Worth considering? Local streets have been awash recently with remainers' tears, and the LibDems have a decent track record in both Camden and Islington.
    Say "Done" if you want it, I'll take the first tenner. Don't want to rack up excessive liability on the seat so whoever wants it first and says so gets it.
    surely you want your entire life savings resting on a single seat elected in four years

    In 2015 it would have been my biggest loss, except the parishner isn't around to collect.
    @Neil ?
    well, to be clear it was £70 or £80 and it was tim (old tim).
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    The key is getting tommorow's paper delivered a day early. My newsagent refuses to do this, perhaps because he knows that I am not Jewish.
    That's how Trump, alias Biff, did it. Back to the future isn't a film it's a documentary made in 2016.
    Newspapers? Where we're going, we don't need newspapers!
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    I wonder what's going to be longer: the annual obituary round-up on the news, or the sporting highlights at SPOTY...
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    Back in the 1970s and early 80s when trade unions mattered, the tabloid press in particular took a keen interest in their leadership elections, and would campaign vigorously for the moderate candidates. Turnout for example in the AUEW which pioneered postal ballots (compulsory now for every union) would reach 30% and the left tended to be vanquished.

    If this were to happen again, buttressed by Labour MPs, then McCluskie might be in trouble, but the once dominant right wing machine in the engineering section is a shadow of its former strength, while the ex TGWU component (from which Len originates) retains its left supremacy. There's also a not insignificant Trot faction too.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,995
    Quiz question for you all (no Googling...):

    which country has the most valuable currency in the world?

    (As in, a single x of which buys the most pounds or dollars.)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Errm Of course the time period between when A50 is served and the 2 year clock runs out is "Transitional Brexit" !
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    rcs1000 said:

    Quiz question for you all (no Googling...):

    which country has the most valuable currency in the world?

    (As in, a single x of which buys the most pounds or dollars.)

    Is it Kuwait ?
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    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about Sir Keir, his seat is very safe indeed.

    Will you lay me 100/1 the Lib Dems then? :)
    Not 100-1, £10 @ 20s if you like.
    Worth considering? Local streets have been awash recently with remainers' tears, and the LibDems have a decent track record in both Camden and Islington.
    I'll leave that. But the LDs should rebound strongly there having been ferociously squeezed both by their own record in coalition and by Natalie Bennett standing for the Greens.

    Result from 2010: Lab 46 LD 28 Con 20.

    There are boundary changes planned too.
    Beating the Greens in the new seat is our first challenge. Starmer looks off in the distance to me right now.
    No guarantee he's even the Labour candidate in 2020...
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    rcs1000 said:

    Quiz question for you all (no Googling...):

    which country has the most valuable currency in the world?

    (As in, a single x of which buys the most pounds or dollars.)

    Malta?
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Quiz question for you all (no Googling...):

    which country has the most valuable currency in the world?

    (As in, a single x of which buys the most pounds or dollars.)

    The Federated States of Micronesia ?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    rcs1000 said:

    Quiz question for you all (no Googling...):

    which country has the most valuable currency in the world?

    (As in, a single x of which buys the most pounds or dollars.)

    Kuwaiti Dinar?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    Interesting

    Bernie Ecclestone demonstrates the transition:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y2TKb66dyU
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    rcs1000 said:

    Quiz question for you all (no Googling...):

    which country has the most valuable currency in the world?

    (As in, a single x of which buys the most pounds or dollars.)

    Malta?
    Oops, forgot about the Euro :D
This discussion has been closed.