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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » First polls give the French Presidential debate to Macron and

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited March 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » First polls give the French Presidential debate to Macron and he remains the strong odds-on favourite

It’s been a big night in the French Presidential election with the first major TV debate between the top five candidates. Ahead of the event the assumption had been that the contender most at risk was the young centrist independent and odds-on betting favourite, Emmanuel Macron.

Read the full story here


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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited March 2017
    First unlike Nicola Sturgeon..
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672
    Second - like SCON.....
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672
    As others observed on a previous thread, perhaps Macron is the blank canvas voters can project their own hopes onto. It will be interesting to see how he fares through the campaign - reminds me a bit of Cameron, not necessarily in a good way.....
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    The debate was much too long and I suppose most viewers switched off before they discussed foreign affairs (past midnight!). The journalists lost control of the time very early and never recovered. The first part was supposed to last 45 mn and it ended after 1h40 mn!

    My own reaction (biased of course):

    - Macron was very hesitant at the beginning and only started to show passion when attacked on his campaign financing by Hamon.He spent the whole (long) economic section repeating "I agree with Francois Fillon" while being closer to left-wing candidates on issues such as police and immigration, as expected. He did not make rookie mistakes and sounded serious. The best point for him is that nobody really discussed the fact that this"centrist independent" wrote Hollande's 2012 economic program, was his most senior advisor for rwo years and economic minister until six months ago.

    - Hamon was apparently only talking to left-wing voters and clearly abandoned the center ground. He sounded like the 1990ies student leader he was, with the same unchanged program. To summarize, he said a few weeks ago that Corbyn represents for him a "model of success". He attacked Macron on campaign finance but backed off too quickly.

    - Le Pen was not as dynamic as usual and showed her limits on technical subjects. Her core message (Anti-EU, anti-immigartion) was still clear and probably effective for her supporters. However, I don't think she has extended her image as a credible president. She is a tough debater but is probably better one on one.

    - Fillon was too timid, even absent during the first part. He recovered progressively and was much better on the economy and foreign affairs. His gravitas is unrivalled among the five and he clearly wants to be seen as the serious and experienced choice. This kind of behavior works very well with his core electorate (older voters and conservatives) but is more of a problem for younger, less-engaged voters. Any discussion on substance is good for him, as it changes the focus from his personal issues.

    - Melenchon was very good, as expected. He is a much better debater than Hamon and it showed. He had the best jokes and punchlines and managed to feel more comfortable than all the others, even if he is the oldest (65). He has a program very similar to Hamon's but he sold it much better. I would not be surprised if some polls show him ahead of Hamon soon.

    - after 5 years of Hollande's socialist governments, nobody defended its actions. The two former Hollande ministers (Hamon and Macron) sounded like long-term opponents.

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    As others observed on a previous thread, perhaps Macron is the blank canvas voters can project their own hopes onto. It will be interesting to see how he fares through the campaign - reminds me a bit of Cameron, not necessarily in a good way.....

    My own comparison would be with Nick Clegg at his peak during the 2010 campaign.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672
    fitalass said:

    First unlike Nicola Sturgeon..

    I see the grievance machine has a new "insult to Scotland" - May didn't give the Scottish government advance notice of the article 50 date so Mrs McTrump couldn't upstage her thus disrespecting Scotland...
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672

    As others observed on a previous thread, perhaps Macron is the blank canvas voters can project their own hopes onto. It will be interesting to see how he fares through the campaign - reminds me a bit of Cameron, not necessarily in a good way.....

    My own comparison would be with Nick Clegg at his peak during the 2010 campaign.
    On reflection I think that's a better comparison. "Insurgent" who is establishment to the very tips of his immaculately manicured fingernails....
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited March 2017

    fitalass said:

    First unlike Nicola Sturgeon..

    I see the grievance machine has a new "insult to Scotland" - May didn't give the Scottish government advance notice of the article 50 date so Mrs McTrump couldn't upstage her thus disrespecting Scotland...
    As we say in Scotland, Sturgeon and her team must be fair raging that their gamble on Monday last week that an announcement of their intention to throw a spanner in the works of Brexit with the threat on another Indy Referendum would totally upstage and undermine a May announcement of Brexit on the Tuesday just before the SNP Conference. Only it didn't happen, and instead we were left with not only a few days before Theresa May's very measured response, but also an even longer gap between the actual announcement of Brexit at the end of March. And it was a media vacuum of their own making that they were unprepared for, hence the lack of any real details of the SNP's plans.

    By Thursday last week we had seen the SNP move right across the board of positions on the EU, and then back again to a holding position of wait and see before Andrew Wilson's policy commission reports. Then over the weekend, we saw Sturgeon backtracking as their political positioning began to look more ridiculous. Now she claims that Scotland would apply to re-enter the EU and that regardless of their policy of entry being dependent of adopting the Euro she now plans to keep the pound. So what is the point of waiting for Andrew Wilson's commission? Sturgeon was bounced into that stunt last Monday, and it shows with the continued contradictory policy messages coming out of SNP HQ.

    But I keep coming back to the point I have been making since Sturgeon's annoncement last Monday, there simple is not any appetite in Scotland outside the hardcore SNP membership to have another rerun of the last extremely divisive Indy campaign before, during or after Brexit in this Parliament. The Scottish economy and the current state of our public services are what matters to Scottish voters right now, and they don't want the added uncertainty and chaos of another Indy Ref to further undermine either no matter how much the SNP party might hope that it will enhance their brand of grudge and grievance politics for party political advantage.

    Right now, Theresa May just needs to hold firm and lead by example when dealing with the SNP. She needs to make it a matter of principle that she intends to put country before party and will therefore focus on getting the best Brexit deal for the whole UK while ignoring calls to instigate a snap GE for party political advantage and gains against a moribund Labour party. Just contrast that stance with the SNP and Scottish Greens behaviour this week, a very cynical, calculated and partisan attempt to try to undermine the Westminster Government's negociations with the EU over the next two years.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    The debate was much too long and I suppose most viewers switched off before they discussed foreign affairs (past midnight!). The journalists lost control of the time very early and never recovered. The first part was supposed to last 45 mn and it ended after 1h40 mn!

    My own reaction (biased of course):

    - Macron was very hesitant at the beginning and only started to show passion when attacked on his campaign financing by Hamon.He spent the whole (long) economic section repeating "I agree with Francois Fillon" while being closer to left-wing candidates on issues such as police and immigration, as expected. He did not make rookie mistakes and sounded serious. The best point for him is that nobody really discussed the fact that this"centrist independent" wrote Hollande's 2012 economic program, was his most senior advisor for rwo years and economic minister until six months ago.

    - Hamon was apparently only talking to left-wing voters and clearly abandoned the center ground. He sounded like the 1990ies student leader he was, with the same unchanged program. To summarize, he said a few weeks ago that Corbyn represents for him a "model of success". He attacked Macron on campaign finance but backed off too quickly.

    - Le Pen was not as dynamic as usual and showed her limits on technical subjects. Her core message (Anti-EU, anti-immigartion) was still clear and probably effective for her supporters. However, I don't think she has extended her image as a credible president. She is a tough debater but is probably better one on one.

    - Fillon was too timid, even absent during the first part. He recovered progressively and was much better on the economy and foreign affairs. His gravitas is unrivalled among the five and he clearly wants to be seen as the serious and experienced choice. This kind of behavior works very well with his core electorate (older voters and conservatives) but is more of a problem for younger, less-engaged voters. Any discussion on substance is good for him, as it changes the focus from his personal issues.

    - Melenchon was very good, as expected. He is a much better debater than Hamon and it showed. He had the best jokes and punchlines and managed to feel more comfortable than all the others, even if he is the oldest (65). He has a program very similar to Hamon's but he sold it much better. I would not be surprised if some polls show him ahead of Hamon soon.

    - after 5 years of Hollande's socialist governments, nobody defended its actions. The two former Hollande ministers (Hamon and Macron) sounded like long-term opponents.

    Thanks Chris that is a good summary. My French wasn't good enough to fully follow the arguments but I thought Fillon looked more comfortable than you would have expected.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Martin McGuinness has died - Sky News
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    JackW said:

    Martin McGuinness has died - Sky News

    This may upset some, but I hope he rests in hell.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672

    JackW said:

    Martin McGuinness has died - Sky News

    This may upset some, but I hope he rests in hell.
    Now he is beyond recourse to libel laws I wonder what will come out.....
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Re McGuinness, seeing him in Government in NI with Ian Paisley was something I didn't think was ever possible. How his past will be portrayed in obituaries will be interesting for what is said or not said about his transition from war to peace.

    Corbyn and McDonnell have an opportunity to upset voters by reminding them of their past support for SF/IRA. It would not surprise me if they both foul up.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    JackW said:

    Martin McGuinness has died - Sky News

    Well, he was by no means Nelson Mandela, but he moved a long, long way from the ‘armed struggle”.
    That N. Ireland has, more or less, peace is due to the fsact that he and Paisley managed to work together so well.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    US planning a ban on carrying electronic items larger than a phone in hand luggage for certain airlines... But not US carriers.

    Seems a strange one to me. Going to really hurt those airlines with business class/other customers who want to work on the plane.

    Part of me almost thinks it's a non trade barrier to help out US airlines... But maybe that's too cynical?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    dr_spyn said:

    Re McGuinness, seeing him in Government in NI with Ian Paisley was something I didn't think was ever possible. How his past will be portrayed in obituaries will be interesting for what is said or not said about his transition from war to peace.

    Corbyn and McDonnell have an opportunity to upset voters by reminding them of their past support for SF/IRA. It would not surprise me if they both foul up.

    Knowing Corbyn, he'll probably try to take credit for the transition to peace through his unofficial talks with the IRA ...
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288

    JackW said:

    Martin McGuinness has died - Sky News

    This may upset some, but I hope he rests in hell.
    Now he is beyond recourse to libel laws I wonder what will come out.....
    +1. Thought the same for some reason.
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    I can't shed any tears for McGuiness.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    rkrkrk said:

    US planning a ban on carrying electronic items larger than a phone in hand luggage for certain airlines... But not US carriers.

    Seems a strange one to me. Going to really hurt those airlines with business class/other customers who want to work on the plane.

    Part of me almost thinks it's a non trade barrier to help out US airlines... But maybe that's too cynical?

    It is only for flights from eight countries, and it seems it's based on intelligence. There was a case where a laptop bomb killed its carrier on a plane ?last year? - fortunately everyone else on board survived.

    They could argue that US airlines can be controlled and checked for compliance with regulations much more than non-US airlines. A bit hard on the main European airlines and others, but they won't care about that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daallo_Airlines_Flight_159
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    At one level lots of NI Unionists have a grudging respect for Martin McGuinness, though obviously his past still leaves open wounds. The whole IRA campaign was ultimately pointless in the end theirsuccess came through the ballot box not via the armalite.

    Personally I'll be concerned to see him go as he was in some ways sincere about making life better in NI. Leaving the reins in Gerry Adams hands is one huge retrograde step.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,294

    I can't shed any tears for McGuiness.

    I can't either but I do think he made a major contribution to the peace process. It may be that anyone with a less ferocious reputation would not have been able to keep the more psychopathic elements of the IRA under control.
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,010

    JackW said:

    Martin McGuinness has died - Sky News

    This may upset some, but I hope he rests in hell.
    Now he is beyond recourse to libel laws I wonder what will come out.....
    The BBC seems to be deliberately reporting hid death not using the word "terrorist".
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    dr_spyn said:

    How his past will be portrayed in obituaries will be interesting for what is said or not said about his transition from war to peace.

    Here is the BBC obituary
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-38640430
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,332

    I can't shed any tears for McGuiness.

    I won't celebrate anyone's death but, put it this way: I won't be going to the funeral.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Martin McGuinness may prove to be the exception to the rule that the evil that men do lives after them while the good lies interred with their bones.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288

    I can't shed any tears for McGuiness.

    I won't celebrate anyone's death but, put it this way: I won't be going to the funeral.
    Will it be a traditional burial, with volleys by men in black berets wearing dark glasses?
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    dr_spyn said:

    How his past will be portrayed in obituaries will be interesting for what is said or not said about his transition from war to peace.

    Here is the BBC obituary
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-38640430
    He was 21 at the time of Bloody Sunday, horrifying that a man of that age was wielding such influence.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    dr_spyn said:

    JackW said:

    Martin McGuinness has died - Sky News

    This may upset some, but I hope he rests in hell.
    Now he is beyond recourse to libel laws I wonder what will come out.....
    +1. Thought the same for some reason.
    Unquestionably there were things he did as a young man that some people won’t want to hear, and some of think will add to our knowledge of that dreadful time.

    Would have been ‘interesting’ to hear some of his confessions, particularly the last!
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    rkrkrk said:

    US planning a ban on carrying electronic items larger than a phone in hand luggage for certain airlines... But not US carriers.

    Seems a strange one to me. Going to really hurt those airlines with business class/other customers who want to work on the plane.

    Part of me almost thinks it's a non trade barrier to help out US airlines... But maybe that's too cynical?

    It is only for flights from eight countries, and it seems it's based on intelligence. There was a case where a laptop bomb killed its carrier on a plane ?last year? - fortunately everyone else on board survived.

    They could argue that US airlines can be controlled and checked for compliance with regulations much more than non-US airlines. A bit hard on the main European airlines and others, but they won't care about that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daallo_Airlines_Flight_159
    I don't follow your point about US airlines... If there is a genuine security threat from laptops/similar as hand luggage... Why would you allow that on some flights and not others?

    Aren't security checks/scanners handled by airports not airlines?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Good riddance to an evil scumbag.
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    There's a strong case to be made that Martin McGuinness and his old friends are responsible for my current job.

    The Manchester bombing of 1996 led to the regeneration of central Manchester.

    Martin McGuinness probably did more for Manchester than the government between 1979 and 2010.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,302
    McGuiness made the transition from terrorist to politician.

    But of course supporters of Irish independence wouldn't see him as a terrorist. If you give the IRA the right to hold a view of wanting Irish independence, and trace the history of the movement back to, say, 1916, then his was an understandable journey.

    Judgement now? I respect his views and that journey.
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    Why do I get the feeling Corbyn's tribute to Martin McGuinness will cause Labour problems.

    Knowing Corbyn, he'll go to Warrington to make his tribute
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    @shippersunbound

    Lord Tebbit says McGuinness only sought peace because he was a coward and murderer who feared arrest for personally killing people.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,302

    Why do I get the feeling Corbyn's tribute to Martin McGuinness will cause Labour problems.

    Knowing Corbyn, he'll go to Warrington to make his tribute

    Exactly. Someone who was an implacable opponent will be able to be fulsome in their praise. Corbyn not so much.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    As others observed on a previous thread, perhaps Macron is the blank canvas voters can project their own hopes onto. It will be interesting to see how he fares through the campaign - reminds me a bit of Cameron, not necessarily in a good way.....

    Macron reminds me very much of a lot of the French business folk I meet in various parts of the world: liberal with a small "l", very comfortable speaking English, dynamic, entrepreneurial and in utter despair at the state France finds itself in. They are among the most impressive people I get to meet, to be honest, and have a huge amount to contribute, not only to France but more widely. But they are a million miles away from the everyday lives of ordinary French people. And that is going to be Macron's big problem - either before or after the election. I would vote for him in an instant. But I always pick the losing side.

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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    TOPPING said:

    Why do I get the feeling Corbyn's tribute to Martin McGuinness will cause Labour problems.

    Knowing Corbyn, he'll go to Warrington to make his tribute

    Exactly. Someone who was an implacable opponent will be able to be fulsome in their praise. Corbyn not so much.
    Has Ian Paisley Jnr said anything yet?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    There's a strong case to be made that Martin McGuinness and his old friends are responsible for my current job.

    The Manchester bombing of 1996 led to the regeneration of central Manchester.

    Martin McGuinness probably did more for Manchester than the government between 1979 and 2010.

    By that logic the police shooting Mark Duggan will do more for Tottenham than any government or council has done for 50 years.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    TGOHF said:

    @shippersunbound

    Lord Tebbit says McGuinness only sought peace because he was a coward and murderer who feared arrest for personally killing people.

    I don't think anyone would dispute that Lord Tebbit is entitled to his views on this subject.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MaxPB said:

    There's a strong case to be made that Martin McGuinness and his old friends are responsible for my current job.

    The Manchester bombing of 1996 led to the regeneration of central Manchester.

    Martin McGuinness probably did more for Manchester than the government between 1979 and 2010.

    By that logic the police shooting Mark Duggan will do more for Tottenham than any government or council has done for 50 years.
    Osama should get praise for urban renewal in Southern Manhattan ?
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited March 2017
    MaxPB said:

    There's a strong case to be made that Martin McGuinness and his old friends are responsible for my current job.

    The Manchester bombing of 1996 led to the regeneration of central Manchester.

    Martin McGuinness probably did more for Manchester than the government between 1979 and 2010.

    By that logic the police shooting Mark Duggan will do more for Tottenham than any government or council has done for 50 years.
    Not really a good comparison. Manchester for the first time got some really good planners and built a city centre that stretched far beyond the relatively small amount of damage caused by the IRA. I was told last week it now has more jazz clubs than Chicago!
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    TOPPING said:

    McGuiness made the transition from terrorist to politician.

    But of course supporters of Irish independence wouldn't see him as a terrorist. If you give the IRA the right to hold a view of wanting Irish independence, and trace the history of the movement back to, say, 1916, then his was an understandable journey.

    Judgement now? I respect his views and that journey.

    He was responsible for the deaths of a lot of people; and may have pulled the trigger a few times too. That is hard to forget and, understandably, impossible for many to forgive. But in the 1980s, Northern Ireland seemed like an impossible problem to solve. It is only because people like McGuinness moved on and took others with them that things changed. If that had not happened, there would now be many more dead bodies, mainly of young men and women, buried in the Irish and British earth.

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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    TGOHF said:

    @shippersunbound

    Lord Tebbit says McGuinness only sought peace because he was a coward and murderer who feared arrest for personally killing people.

    I don't think anyone would dispute that Lord Tebbit is entitled to his views on this subject.
    Yes but the evidence doesn't really support him though we can all understand his anger
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,302

    TOPPING said:

    McGuiness made the transition from terrorist to politician.

    But of course supporters of Irish independence wouldn't see him as a terrorist. If you give the IRA the right to hold a view of wanting Irish independence, and trace the history of the movement back to, say, 1916, then his was an understandable journey.

    Judgement now? I respect his views and that journey.

    He was responsible for the deaths of a lot of people; and may have pulled the trigger a few times too. That is hard to forget and, understandably, impossible for many to forgive. But in the 1980s, Northern Ireland seemed like an impossible problem to solve. It is only because people like McGuinness moved on and took others with them that things changed. If that had not happened, there would now be many more dead bodies, mainly of young men and women, buried in the Irish and British earth.

    Yes it is his journey in totality that should be examined.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    edited March 2017
    Roger said:

    TGOHF said:

    @shippersunbound

    Lord Tebbit says McGuinness only sought peace because he was a coward and murderer who feared arrest for personally killing people.

    I don't think anyone would dispute that Lord Tebbit is entitled to his views on this subject.
    Yes but the evidence doesn't really support him though we can all understand his anger
    Colin Parry, father of the boy killed in the Warrington explosion has a different view to Lord Tebbit.
    As does Kyle Paisley, Ian P’s second son.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232

    TGOHF said:

    @shippersunbound

    Lord Tebbit says McGuinness only sought peace because he was a coward and murderer who feared arrest for personally killing people.

    I don't think anyone would dispute that Lord Tebbit is entitled to his views on this subject.
    That's a bold statement. Corbyn and Macdonnell will almost certainly go after him to try and distract attention from their own record.

    Personally I think this is bad news on a number of levels. The most significant is probably that it makes sorting out the mess in Northern Ireland more difficult without him using any influence with the Unionists. However, the problems are not his fault and he was right to act as he did over Foster.

    Expect direct rule in one month.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,435
    edited March 2017
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,123
    A shot across the bows of the Brexit Bashing Corporation:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39335904
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060

    George Galloway is standing in the Gorton by election.

    Odds on the illiberal non-democrats?
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited March 2017
    Mourning all.

    The tweeted condolences should be interesting today, bags of interest and er, interpretations.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,123

    George Galloway is standing in the Gorton by election.

    That will only add to Labour's woes...and to the gaiety of the nation.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited March 2017

    Roger said:

    TGOHF said:

    @shippersunbound

    Lord Tebbit says McGuinness only sought peace because he was a coward and murderer who feared arrest for personally killing people.

    I don't think anyone would dispute that Lord Tebbit is entitled to his views on this subject.
    Yes but the evidence doesn't really support him though we can all understand his anger
    Colin Parry, father of the boy killed in the Warrington explosion has a different view to Lord Tebbit.
    As does Kyle Paisley, Ian P’s second son.
    All conflicts have thrown up some heroic figures. Norman Tebbit will never be one of them though no one can deny his right to feel bitter if that's hs choice.
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    George Galloway is standing in the Gorton by election.

    That will only add to Labour's woes...and to the gaiety of the nation.
    No. Just no.

    Galloway must lose. I don't want him back in Parliament.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    What are the odds he will get backing from Jeremy Corbyn?

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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,123

    George Galloway is standing in the Gorton by election.

    That will only add to Labour's woes...and to the gaiety of the nation.
    No. Just no.

    Galloway must lose. I don't want him back in Parliament.
    He will be a wonderful representative for Manchester....
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    edited March 2017
    Good morning, everyone.

    Martin McGuinness is dead. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39185899

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Eagles, I have backed Galloway to win. You can thank me (when he loses) later.

    Three and a half hours is a damned long time. But I know they'll destroy the one ring eventually.
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    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221

    George Galloway is standing in the Gorton by election.

    That will only add to Labour's woes...and to the gaiety of the nation.
    No. Just no.

    Galloway must lose. I don't want him back in Parliament.
    you just can't keep a massive ego down. Limelight, limelight, limelight! If he tries, he's got a chance. If.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited March 2017

    What are the odds he will get backing from Jeremy Corbyn?

    A big help to the Lib Dems I'd guess. You can go for the official wing of Labour or the provisional wing....

    Or you can go Lib Dem
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    George Galloway is standing in the Gorton by election.

    That will only add to Labour's woes...and to the gaiety of the nation.
    No. Just no.

    Galloway must lose. I don't want him back in Parliament.
    He will be a wonderful representative for Manchester....
    I would be a wonderful representative for Manchester but you really wouldn't want me as an MP
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    TGOHF said:

    @shippersunbound

    Lord Tebbit says McGuinness only sought peace because he was a coward and murderer who feared arrest for personally killing people.

    I don't think anyone would dispute that Lord Tebbit is entitled to his views on this subject.
    or that they'd be utterly nonsensical.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973
    fitalass said:

    fitalass said:

    First unlike Nicola Sturgeon..

    I see the grievance machine has a new "insult to Scotland" - May didn't give the Scottish government advance notice of the article 50 date so Mrs McTrump couldn't upstage her thus disrespecting Scotland...
    As we say in Scotland, Sturgeon and her team must be fair raging that their gamble on Monday last week that an announcement of their intention to throw a spanner in the works of Brexit with the threat on another Indy Referendum would totally upstage and undermine a May announcement of Brexit on the Tuesday just before the SNP Conference. Only it didn't happen, and instead we were left with not only a few days before Theresa May's very measured response, but also an even longer gap between the actual announcement of Brexit at the end of March. And it was a media vacuum of their own making that they were unprepared for, hence the lack of any real details of the SNP's plans.

    By Thursday last week we had seen the SNP move right across the board of positions on the EU, and then back again to a holding position of wait and see before Andrew Wilson's policy commission reports. Then over the weekend, we saw Sturgeon backtracking as their political positioning began to look more ridiculous. Now she claims that Scotland would apply to re-enter the EU and that regardless of their policy of entry being dependent of adopting the Euro she now plans to keep the pound. So what is the point of waiting for Andrew Wilson's commission? Sturgeon was bounced into that stunt last Monday, and it shows with the continued contradictory policy messages coming out of SNP HQ.





    LOL, news from around the cauldron

    At one level lots of NI Unionists have a grudging respect for Martin McGuinness, though obviously his past still leaves open wounds. The whole IRA campaign was ultimately pointless in the end theirsuccess came through the ballot box not via the armalite.

    Personally I'll be concerned to see him go as he was in some ways sincere about making life better in NI. Leaving the reins in Gerry Adams hands is one huge retrograde step.

    Alan, Do you think Westminster would ever hav echanged anything if they had not taken to the armalite , even though it was pointless. There was no hope through democracy.
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    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    TGOHF said:

    Good riddance to an evil scumbag.

    agreed.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    Repeated for the record
    kle4 said:

    Posters here said he was vacuous, among other things, but I'd say people like vacuousness in politicians...when said politician is a fresh face or otherwise new to the top level of electoral contests. Vagueness and cliche gets rewarded, when delivered by a newbie.
    rcs1000 said:

    Cyan said:

    nunu said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think we'll have polls showing Le Pen beating Fillon in round 2...

    Macron looks like he's craving a fix.

    Having Melenchon and Hamon there just gives Le Pen a foil.

    Yes, at the moment it looks like Le Pen's night but we will see
    In terms of the debate, definitely Le Pen and Melenchon stealing the show. Poor night for Macron. Hamon and Fillon a bit 'unnecessary'.

    I think we may see a slight rise for Melenchon at the expense of Hamon. Macron may fall back slightly but not sure where his supporters will go, as Fillon hasn't done anything to redeem himself either.
    really French corbyn goes down well in france?
    For me, Hamon is more the Corbyn character - a bit 'wet' hard left, if that makes any sense. Melenchon has a fiestyness that makes him seem a bit more like Bernie Sanders.
    Melénchon believes France needs a(nother) revolution, that's all you need to know.
    Macron wrote a book entitled "Révolution".
    People who wrote books called "Revolution" usually hope people won't notice that their platform is actually "No change".
    We shall see how much of this will apply to president Macron.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,536
    edited March 2017
    Complications for Stormont coming after McGuinness' death; but I won't mourn for a half-reformed murderer.

    Though the first step back for Stormont would be Arlene Foster to admit her responsibility for the recent disaster.

    I hope the greatest beneficiaries will be the families of people from the Nationalist Community murdered on the order of the 'IRA leadership' who have suffered in addition to the loss of friends and family.
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Martin McGuinness is dead. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39185899

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Eagles, I have backed Galloway to win. You can thank me (when he loses) later.

    Three and a half hours is a damned long time. But I know they'll destroy the one ring eventually.

    Before all this I've backed both the Lib Dems and Galloway
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    F1: a rambly predictions article but intriguing that the top 3 forecast to get the title include Ricciardo but not Verstappen (in the markets, Verstappen's had slightly shorter odds for a while).

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39281428
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    TOPPING said:

    McGuiness made the transition from terrorist to politician.

    But of course supporters of Irish independence wouldn't see him as a terrorist. If you give the IRA the right to hold a view of wanting Irish independence, and trace the history of the movement back to, say, 1916, then his was an understandable journey.

    Judgement now? I respect his views and that journey.

    He was responsible for the deaths of a lot of people; and may have pulled the trigger a few times too. That is hard to forget and, understandably, impossible for many to forgive. But in the 1980s, Northern Ireland seemed like an impossible problem to solve. It is only because people like McGuinness moved on and took others with them that things changed. If that had not happened, there would now be many more dead bodies, mainly of young men and women, buried in the Irish and British earth.

    Yes, it's a tough situation. Getting a peace settlement in such a situation requires, if you cannot eliminate ate the opponent, working with them, at the right time, which will be unfair on many individuals who wo t get justice as such.

    I remember thinking when paisley died it was about the only time I could remember a senior political figure in this country dying where many newspaper columns were at times pretty unfortunate direct in criticism of him as a man, not just that soecual brevity you get when people have nothing nice they feel able to say but font feel they can be openly negative.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited March 2017

    A shot across the bows of the Brexit Bashing Corporation:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39335904

    From the article.......

    "The (72) MPs warned the future of the BBC "will be in doubt" if it is not seen as a impartial broker".

    Tory MPs threatening and bullying the BBC ........

    Please don't ever change or you might become likeable
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    dr_spyn said:
    He was only 66? His illness and NI politics really made that look at least 10 years more.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    George Galloway is standing in the Gorton by election.

    That will only add to Labour's woes...and to the gaiety of the nation.
    He didn't get much traction in London.
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    Roger said:

    A shot across the bows of the Brexit Bashing Corporation:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39335904

    From the article.......

    "The (72) MPs warned the future of the BBC "will be in doubt" if it is not seen as a impartial broker".

    Tory MPs threatening and bullying the BBC ........

    Please don't ever change or you might become likeable
    My favourite bit from that letter.

    The letter, which was also copied to the incoming chair of the BBC Board Sir David Clementi, did not include any specific examples.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    George Galloway is standing in the Gorton by election.

    That will only add to Labour's woes...and to the gaiety of the nation.
    No. Just no.

    Galloway must lose. I don't want him back in Parliament.
    What if he split the vote so the lds won? Still Improbable , but funny.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,714

    The debate was much too long and I suppose most viewers switched off before they discussed foreign affairs (past midnight!). The journalists lost control of the time very early and never recovered. The first part was supposed to last 45 mn and it ended after 1h40 mn!

    My own reaction (biased of course):

    - Macron was very hesitant at the beginning and only started to show passion when attacked on his campaign financing by Hamon.He spent the whole (long) economic section repeating "I agree with Francois Fillon" while being closer to left-wing candidates on issues such as police and immigration, as expected. He did not make rookie mistakes and sounded serious. The best point for him is that nobody really discussed the fact that this"centrist independent" wrote Hollande's 2012 economic program, was his most senior advisor for rwo years and economic minister until six months ago.

    - Hamon was apparently only talking to left-wing voters and clearly abandoned the center ground. He sounded like the 1990ies student leader he was, with the same unchanged program. To summarize, he said a few weeks ago that Corbyn represents for him a "model of success". He attacked Macron on campaign finance but backed off too quickly.

    - Le Pen was not as dynamic as usual and showed her limits on technical subjects. Her core message (Anti-EU, anti-immigartion) was still clear and probably effective for her supporters. However, I don't think she has extended her image as a credible president. She is a tough debater but is probably better one on one.

    - Fillon was too timid, even absent during the first part. He recovered progressively and was much better on the economy and foreign affairs. His gravitas is unrivalled among the five and he clearly wants to be seen as the serious and experienced choice. This kind of behavior works very well with his core electorate (older voters and conservatives) but is more of a problem for younger, less-engaged voters. Any discussion on substance is good for him, as it changes the focus from his personal issues.

    - Melenchon was very good, as expected. He is a much better debater than Hamon and it showed. He had the best jokes and punchlines and managed to feel more comfortable than all the others, even if he is the oldest (65). He has a program very similar to Hamon's but he sold it much better. I would not be surprised if some polls show him ahead of Hamon soon.

    - after 5 years of Hollande's socialist governments, nobody defended its actions. The two former Hollande ministers (Hamon and Macron) sounded like long-term opponents.

    So nothing happened to move sentiment? Which would comfort Macron as the front runner.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    edited March 2017
    Mr. Eagles, hmm. Now I'm wondering about a smidgen on the yellows.

    Edited extra bit: Betfair needs to add Galloway.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288

    TOPPING said:

    Why do I get the feeling Corbyn's tribute to Martin McGuinness will cause Labour problems.

    Knowing Corbyn, he'll go to Warrington to make his tribute

    Exactly. Someone who was an implacable opponent will be able to be fulsome in their praise. Corbyn not so much.
    Has Ian Paisley Jnr said anything yet?
    His brother had - words were measured and conciliatory.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    dr_spyn said:

    Re McGuinness, seeing him in Government in NI with Ian Paisley was something I didn't think was ever possible. How his past will be portrayed in obituaries will be interesting for what is said or not said about his transition from war to peace.

    Corbyn and McDonnell have an opportunity to upset voters by reminding them of their past support for SF/IRA. It would not surprise me if they both foul up.

    They cannot help overselling their importance, as well as not knowing the difference between backchannel talks while sudes not give an inch in the fight, showing talk is the only way, and showing your belly to the other side.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    dr_spyn said:

    TOPPING said:

    Why do I get the feeling Corbyn's tribute to Martin McGuinness will cause Labour problems.

    Knowing Corbyn, he'll go to Warrington to make his tribute

    Exactly. Someone who was an implacable opponent will be able to be fulsome in their praise. Corbyn not so much.
    Has Ian Paisley Jnr said anything yet?
    His brother had - words were measured and conciliatory.
    Like the lack of the word terrorist in initial reporting on this, that's what peace demands I would guess. Still a freight area after all
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    kle4 said:

    dr_spyn said:
    He was only 66? His illness and NI politics really made that look at least 10 years more.
    At least he didn't get a chance to claim much pension from the state
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    Fat_SteveFat_Steve Posts: 361

    George Galloway is standing in the Gorton by election.

    That will only add to Labour's woes...and to the gaiety of the nation.
    I have the impression that Gorton is a place where much of the politics is communalist in the South Asian way. Which is the type of politics that George Galloway likes. Makes it interesting. I wonder who he's spoken to.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997

    TOPPING said:

    McGuiness made the transition from terrorist to politician.

    But of course supporters of Irish independence wouldn't see him as a terrorist. If you give the IRA the right to hold a view of wanting Irish independence, and trace the history of the movement back to, say, 1916, then his was an understandable journey.

    Judgement now? I respect his views and that journey.

    He was responsible for the deaths of a lot of people; and may have pulled the trigger a few times too. That is hard to forget and, understandably, impossible for many to forgive. But in the 1980s, Northern Ireland seemed like an impossible problem to solve. It is only because people like McGuinness moved on and took others with them that things changed. If that had not happened, there would now be many more dead bodies, mainly of young men and women, buried in the Irish and British earth.
    Yet he wasn't truthful. He never admitted what he had done, and never helped others reach closure. The lack of truthfulness about the past - on all sides - allows the distrust and hatred to fester.

    He never could quite make that last step. Although to be fair, admitting it might have involved landing others in it.

    Would a TRC in Northern Ireland have worked, or been useful?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    Roger said:

    A shot across the bows of the Brexit Bashing Corporation:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39335904

    From the article.......

    "The (72) MPs warned the future of the BBC "will be in doubt" if it is not seen as a impartial broker".

    Tory MPs threatening and bullying the BBC ........

    Please don't ever change or you might become likeable
    My favourite bit from that letter.

    The letter, which was also copied to the incoming chair of the BBC Board Sir David Clementi, did not include any specific examples.
    The anti bbcers are A prime example of where the subject of their focus might well have real issues someti es, but they are do overblown, and they react with extreme outrage over every real or imagined issue, that they are utterly ineffective.

    I can accept a general point that the coverage has not been as impartial as it perhaps could be, but they usually oversell these things and are too lazy to provide more than anecdotal evidence, because it's really just about snowflake whinging.
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited March 2017
    Roger said:

    A shot across the bows of the Brexit Bashing Corporation:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39335904

    From the article.......

    "The (72) MPs warned the future of the BBC "will be in doubt" if it is not seen as a impartial broker".

    Tory MPs threatening and bullying the BBC ........

    Please don't ever change or you might become likeable
    Julian Knight.

    Disgruntled former BBC employee-turned MP settling scores.

    During his lean years he wrote the *avoiding inheritance tax for dummies* book;

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Wills-Probate-Inheritance-Tax-Dummies-Julian-Knight/0470756292/ref=la_B001JSHG86_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1490084439&sr=1-2
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    My worry in NI is the politicians there and here always seem to go on about how fragile the peace process is, which be definition means they all think violence is always bubbling under the surface even now, ready to emerge. Maybe that's not right, but it's the image they choose to present to the world.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited March 2017
    OT. We must be close to the point where SDP Mark 2 becomes a reality.

    Now that we're faced with Watson and McCusky locking horns I can't think of any scenario where Labour could look less attractive to their voters. They'd have two years to get their act together


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39334657
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Mixed feelings on McGuinness, on the one hand in his early years he was a terrorist and murderer and on the other in his later years he helped bring the nationalists to the negotiating table and ensure powersharing worked
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Roger, things can always get worse.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    edited March 2017
    Roger said:

    OT. We must be close to the point where SDP Mark 2 becomes a reality.

    Now that we're faced with Watson and McCusky locking horns I can't think of any scenario where Labour could look less attractive to their voters. They'd have two years to get their act together


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39334657

    SDP Mark 2 will never happen. Tussling with unite aside, and apparently Watson lacks support on this, everyone still seems religiously devoted to the labour name, even if it represents something they do not and perhaps might not again.those that cannot tough it out seem inclined ed to just give up rather than fight,
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    On topic, I'm now less confident about the big reds I have against Le Pen and Fillon.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    A good day for Northern Ireland, only when those who have embraced entirely peaceful means are in the political process can the country truly move on from its past.

    From terrorist to politician to wormfood, we are all equal in the soil.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    OT. We must be close to the point where SDP Mark 2 becomes a reality.

    Now that we're faced with Watson and McCusky locking horns I can't think of any scenario where Labour could look less attractive to their voters. They'd have two years to get their act together


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39334657

    SDP Mark 2 will never happen. Tussling with unite aside, and apparently Watson lacks support on this, everyone still seems religiously devoted to the labour name, even if it represents something they do not and perhaps might not again.those that cannot tough it out seem inclined ed to just give up rather than fight,
    "everyone still seems religiously devoted to the labour name"

    Everyone except for the voters ... :)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    OpinionWay had Macron most convincing on 24%, then Le Pen and Fillon on 19%, Melenchon on 15% and Hamon on 10%, so Macron comes out on top but not by a huge margin and I doubt it changed a great deal
    https://mobile.twitter.com/C_Barraud/status/844096917323874304/photo/1
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    What are the odds he will get backing from Jeremy Corbyn?

    Even Corbyn isn't that stupid. But you'd assume that he will run on a promise to back JC against the neo-imperialist warmongers in the Labour Party.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Eagles, why, when Macron retained (perhaps extended) his advantage?

    Anyway, surely you can now hedge him to be all green?

    Mr. kle4, I agree. SDP2 should happen, and should've happened months ago, but Labour MPs are more interested in Labour branding than Labour values.

    Be intriguing (in a "Do something, you bloody cretins!" kind of way) if Corbyn gets hammered at an election then decides to stay on as leader. What then, will you do? Where will you go?
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited March 2017
    Roger said:

    OT. We must be close to the point where SDP Mark 2 becomes a reality.

    Now that we're faced with Watson and McCusky locking horns I can't think of any scenario where Labour could look less attractive to their voters. They'd have two years to get their act together [snip]

    A distinct possibility, however where will the fracture line be drawn? – I don’t think it will be as simple as a far-left v Blairite split, it may involve pro versus anti EU and London metro centrists against the rest.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Jessop, the priests are devoted, but the churches are empty.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    A shot across the bows of the Brexit Bashing Corporation:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39335904

    From the article.......

    "The (72) MPs warned the future of the BBC "will be in doubt" if it is not seen as a impartial broker".

    Tory MPs threatening and bullying the BBC ........

    Please don't ever change or you might become likeable
    My favourite bit from that letter.

    The letter, which was also copied to the incoming chair of the BBC Board Sir David Clementi, did not include any specific examples.
    The anti bbcers are A prime example of where the subject of their focus might well have real issues someti es, but they are do overblown, and they react with extreme outrage over every real or imagined issue, that they are utterly ineffective.

    I can accept a general point that the coverage has not been as impartial as it perhaps could be, but they usually oversell these things and are too lazy to provide more than anecdotal evidence, because it's really just about snowflake whinging.
    Good morning all.

    It seems entirely obvious that, with the status quo under threat, most Brexit stories are going to be gloomy and downbeat in tone as people & vested interests worry about their future - Machiavelli's quote about a new system springs to mind.

    Only the most Panglossian Brexiteers believe that it's going to be nothing but kittens and rainbows.
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    I miss Dave.

    David Cameron: 'I don't have to listen any more to wiretaps of Donald Trump'

    Former British prime minister clarifies he was not serious, as he weighs in on US presidency, Brexit and Putin’s bare chest on university speaking tour.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/21/david-cameron-jokes-listening-trump-wiretaps
This discussion has been closed.