In an attempt at levity, perhaps the Spanish would welcome us bringing up a dispute over Gibraltar right now, I understand it to be a useful unifying tactic for them at times.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
You have my sympathy SO. It is always hard to watch people you have a great affinity for doing bad things.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
So what's going to happen in Catalonia tonight and tomorrow? Is the result going to be announced, duly discounted by the national government and everyone nonchalantly go into work tomorrow? If not, what then?
First we'll see the turnout and the result. The photos are misleading. In most of Catalonia it's been a peaceful, orderly day. Presumably, though, those who did vote will have overwhelmingly backed independence. That means we should expext UDI and then Madrid assuming central control. That will make things worse, of course.
What about longer term? I mean, having tried an unofficial referendum, which was ignored, and then this illegal one which they wanted to lead to a UDI, which will probably result in Madrid taking over, will the indy parties stand at the next regionals on the basis of if they win a majority a vote in the regional assembly will be enough to declare? In which case would Madrid just band the parties altogether?
At some point there's no more escalation to take, surely.
Abolish the Parliament and appoint regional governors? I’ve heard that has worked well before
It was a sound plan, assuming the continuing existence of the, er, military strength to enforce the governors' will.
In relation to Davidson, I'm not sure people have realised just how feasible the SNP losing office at the next Holyrood election is? The SNP+Greens only need to lose a combined 5 seats, and the Unionist parties will have a majority for a Coalition, likely with Davidson at the helm, even if the SNP remain the largest party.
Or atleast, arithmetically the majority for a Unionist Coalition will be there, whether the various parties will be willing to go along with it is another question - which maybe gives extra significance to the Scottish Labour leadership contest (one assumes Sarwar and the centrist faction would be much more open to it).
Surely unless the Tories are actually the largest party Labour would look to support the SNP rather than them?
It has to be said they would be in a difficult position if there was a close result and they were third - support the SNP and annoy all their unionist supporters, or support the Tories and make their socialist backers incandescent with fury. But my money would be on them backing the SNP.
That does of course presuppose they don't recover to head the field themselves, and I don't think that should be ruled out either at some point.
Maybe a more interesting scenario is if Labour come second, but can combine with the 3rd-placed Tories for a majority - in that case Labour get the First Minister, but still face a potential backlash (though perhaps less of one than if they were junior partners to the Tories). Do they go for it? Do the Tories?
If you poll Spain as a whole, what would the likely outcome on the Catalan question be? Are the Extremadurans firmly against? Or do they not care?
They are. There'a a good article on this today by William Cook on the Spectator Coffee House blog.
I can't believe the article is specifically Extremadura! If the rest of Spain is similar, Rajoy should call a national referendum on the issue - say "I am the PM of Spain, I was elected for Spain, the constitution refers to the indivisibility of the state, if Catalonia wants to be independence, it is a decision for Spain".
@Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
You have my sympathy SO. It is always hard to watch people you have a great affinity for doing bad things.
Everything I knew would happen has happened. Madrid has done Barcelona's job for it. And I know millions of Catalans - my friends - will feel so desperately sad. But stupid, Spanish nationalist obstinacy has destriyed what it wanted to protect.
@Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.
Well we shall have to agree to disagree. I have rarely been so insulted. Your view would mean people are not permitted to take a strong view one way or the other on this situation because our nation has had difficulties with similar if imperfect comparisons.
I do not believe accusations of xenophobia, effectively racism in my view, should be made lightly, and you appear to have made it on the basis that others dare to hold a firmer, if still nuanced view, than yourself. Such a view might be wrong, but unreasonable for people to hold? Only possible if someone is a xenophobia racist? The simplest answer usually being the best, it seems more probable to me people simply hold that view, given there is such a wide spectrum of people thinking it it makes little sense, in the total absence of other evidence, to suggest they are all xenophobes.
@Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.
No wonder everyone and everything is being called racist these days, if that's your definition of xenophobia.
@Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.
Well clearly you didn't read a lot of the comments because like me others have said they hoped and believed this was not something that would happen in other parts of Europe and was peculiar to Spain because of its recent history. But of course your blind bigotry won't let you see comments that might move your ignorant view of people.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
Very good point. Some on here seem to be giving carte blanche to any population subset with a grievance to rise up and do their own thing. That rather facile form of localism seems extremely dangerous to those of us who value the integrity of the nation state.
The PP have form dealing with crises - see the Madrid Atocha station bombing in 2004. Their kneejerk reaction was to blame Basque separatists. They lost the election three days later.
So what's going to happen in Catalonia tonight and tomorrow? Is the result going to be announced, duly discounted by the national government and everyone nonchalantly go into work tomorrow? If not, what then?
First we'll see the turnout and the result. The photos are misleading. In most of Catalonia it's been a peaceful, orderly day. Presumably, though, those who did vote will have overwhelmingly backed independence. That means we should expext UDI and then Madrid assuming central control. That will make things worse, of course.
What about longer term? I mean, having tried an unofficial referendum, which was ignored, and then this illegal one which they wanted to lead to a UDI, which will probably result in Madrid taking over, will the indy parties stand at the next regionals on the basis of if they win a majority a vote in the regional assembly will be enough to declare? In which case would Madrid just band the parties altogether?
At some point there's no more escalation to take, surely.
Longer term, today's events pretty much ensure Catalonia will get some form of independence. The PP in Madrid have orovided a text book example of what not to do when faced with a separatist force. The how to do it properly was done by David Cameron.
And to be fair the Scottish nationalists who stuck rigidly to the process and were as much a reason for the referendum being a success as Westminster.
@Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.
Your judgment is absurd - there is not a xenophobic or racist bone in my body and I repudiate any suggestion there is by anybody, especially someone who is incapable of seeing the wider picture or is in denial
So what's going to happen in Catalonia tonight and tomorrow? Is the result going to be announced, duly discounted by the national government and everyone nonchalantly go into work tomorrow? If not, what then?
First we'll see the turnout and the result. The photos are misleading. In most of Catalonia it's been a peaceful, orderly day. Presumably, though, those who did vote will have overwhelmingly backed independence. That means we should expext UDI and then Madrid assuming central control. That will make things worse, of course.
What about longer term? I mean, having tried an unofficial referendum, which was ignored, and then this illegal one which they wanted to lead to a UDI, which will probably result in Madrid taking over, will the indy parties stand at the next regionals on the basis of if they win a majority a vote in the regional assembly will be enough to declare? In which case would Madrid just band the parties altogether?
At some point there's no more escalation to take, surely.
Abolish the Parliament and appoint regional governors? I’ve heard that has worked well before
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
Very good point. Some on here seem to be giving carte blanche to any population subset with a grievance to rise up and do their own thing. That rather facile form of localism seems extremely dangerous to those of us who value the integrity of the nation state.
Many of us hold the integrity of the nation state in high esteem, and may not even support the idea of Catalan independence, particularly as whether a majority of Catalans themselves support it is much in dispute. It is possible, however, to question to response of the spanish state to the specific sequence of events without thinking the Catalan separatists, or indeed any separatists, should be able to just declare independence and division willy nilly.
As we have been repeatedly told, the issue is one which demands quite a lot of nuance, and it is not as simple as one either supports the nation state or not.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
I don't believe for a second you would have the Feds in riot gear attacking voters with batons.
They should have said the vote was meaningless and called for a boycott and left it at that. Stoking the fire like this was a dreadful idea.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
You've said "illegal referendum" four times there. But what does that mean?
If I book out a hall in every town and village in Scotland, then send a letter to everyone on the electoral register saying "Come and place your vote", what laws have I broken?
If I then declare independence as a result of that then, yes, sure, that might be illegal. But Madrid's argument appears to be "any referendum is illegal simply because Spain is an indivisible state".
A derogation from freedom of expression expressly permitted by the ECHR.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
I have severe doubts that most Western countries would deploy riot police to stop a peaceful vote on anything.
They’d declare it illegal, tell everyone to boycott it, challenge it in the courts and so on, but to try and physically prevent people voting using the Guardia Civil is absurd.
@kle4 Xenophobia is not the same as racism. By deliberately and repeatedly using the two interchangeably you are making a rhetorical point but it's not what I said.
So what's going to happen in Catalonia tonight and tomorrow? Is the result going to be announced, duly discounted by the national government and everyone nonchalantly go into work tomorrow? If not, what then?
First we'll see the turnout and the result. The photos are misleading. In most of Catalonia it's been a peaceful, orderly day. Presumably, though, those who did vote will have overwhelmingly backed independence. That means we should expext UDI and then Madrid assuming central control. That will make things worse, of course.
What about longer term? I mean, having tried an unofficial referendum, which was ignored, and then this illegal one which they wanted to lead to a UDI, which will probably result in Madrid taking over, will the indy parties stand at the next regionals on the basis of if they win a majority a vote in the regional assembly will be enough to declare? In which case would Madrid just band the parties altogether?
At some point there's no more escalation to take, surely.
Longer term, today's events pretty much ensure Catalonia will get some form of independence. The PP in Madrid have orovided a text book example of what not to do when faced with a separatist force. The how to do it properly was done by David Cameron.
And to be fair the Scottish nationalists who stuck rigidly to the process and were as much a reason for the referendum being a success as Westminster.
Indeed so. And when they wanted another one, they passed a vote and made the request. Were they intending or are they intending to press ahead with another referendum even if Westminster does not cooperate, as it has indicated it does not intend to in the short term? I am unclear, and what would we do if they did? It's possible we'd end up doing the same as the Spanish authorities, but that is a hypothetical and it is fair to argue it one way or another.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
Very good point. Some on here seem to be giving carte blanche to any population subset with a grievance to rise up and do their own thing. That rather facile form of localism seems extremely dangerous to those of us who value the integrity of the nation state.
Mr. Divvie, what's said there is mostly fair enough, the omission of condemnation for the violence is the problem (also the 'unity' section which is taking sides in a domestic political matter, something to be avoided).
@kle4 Xenophobia is not the same as racism. By deliberately and repeatedly using the two interchangeably you are making a rhetorical point but it's not what I said.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
Very good point. Some on here seem to be giving carte blanche to any population subset with a grievance to rise up and do their own thing. That rather facile form of localism seems extremely dangerous to those of us who value the integrity of the nation state.
Except they have not 'risen up'. They have spent they last 15 years or more trying to get more devolved powers or a referendum on Independence - which they would have almost certainly lost before today - and were kicked back at every stage. They have been peaceful at every turn. The revised Statute of Autonomy was accepted by every party in the Spanish Parliament except the PP who are the genuine heirs to the Franco fascists and who are now the ones promoting the use of violence against peaceful voters.
@kle4 Xenophobia is not the same as racism. By deliberately and repeatedly using the two interchangeably you are making a rhetorical point but it's not what I said.
The primary definition of xenophobia is about hatred of foreigners. At its weaker definitions about fear or dislike of foreigners. Fine, you don't mean people are racists when you call them xenophobes. You are still declaring a group of people with highly divergent views of hating or fearing foreigners and that that is the reason they might take a firmer view in criticising the spanish state than you believe is necessarily fair given our own history.
I defy you to suggest how people with such a wide birth of views on everything from Brexit to scottish independence could all reasonably be motivated by xenophobia, of hating and/or fearing foreigners. Because that is definitely what you did say, as you defined it as 'many' comments, ie more than a few.
Why are Tories, and Labour supporters and SNP supporters who disagree on so many things suddenly sharing a hatred and/or fear of foreigners on this issue? With no other reason to suspect so many people of being xenophobes, it is far more reasonable to assume they mean what they say they mean, rather than insult them and say 'No, you just hate/fear/dislike foreigners'.
I'd also point out that, imperfect though it is, a thesaurus will give racism as a synonym for xenophobia - the two are quite often reasonably connected.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
Very good point. Some on here seem to be giving carte blanche to any population subset with a grievance to rise up and do their own thing. That rather facile form of localism seems extremely dangerous to those of us who value the integrity of the nation state.
Except they have not 'risen up'. They have spent they last 15 years or more trying to get more devolved powers or a referendum on Independence - which they would have almost certainly lost before today - and were kicked back at every stage. They have been peaceful at every turn. The revised Statute of Autonomy was accepted by every party in the Spanish Parliament except the PP who are the genuine heirs to the Franco fascists and who are now the ones promoting the use of violence against peaceful voters.
Also, Spain is almost as much of a nation of nations, and Catalonia has tried every legal route and the Spanish Govt. has blocked them.
@Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.
We might make a similar mess, but I think a government confronted with a similar situation in Scotland would have called such a vote illegal, encouraged unionists to boycott it, and given support to local authorities which refused to participate.
Xenos derives from Greek, as does barbaros. Barbaros (hence barbarians) refers to non-Greeks, xenos to Greeks from a different city-state. That's one reason why Alexander et al. were not Greeks (despite Greek revisionism). Demosthenes claimed, pre-Charonea, that Macedonians were so barbaric they didn't even make good slaves.
The right of a people to self determination is enshrined in Chapter One of the UN Decleration,of Human Rights.... and that is why the IndyRef was rightly granted... and why Spain is wrong to insist that, in effect, its constitution overrides the UN Declaration... it doesn't help, however, that InfyRef and Brexit have reinforced the expectation that profound constitutional change can be decided by a simple majority in a single plebiscite... if it had been a higher threshold, and/or two votes separated by say five years, then a decision to separate would be unanswerable
@Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.
We might make a similar mess, but I think a government confronted with a similar situation in Scotland would have called such a vote illegal, encouraged unionists to boycott it, and given support to local authorities which refused to participate.
Perhaps so - it is the only part of the statement I think is a little over specific since can they be certain of the percentage who would like independence - but it is clear, neutral yet strong. Well done, Guy.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
We managed to agree to let the Scots have a vote on Independence.
Why is it so difficult for the Spanish Govt. to agree to a vote on Catalan independence?
Mr. 56, at the risk of re-enacting the 'violence inherent in the system' sketch from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, that's a legitimate perspective and a debate we perhaps should've had a while ago.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
We managed to agree to let the Scots have a vote on Independence.
Why is it so difficult for the Spanish Govt. to agree to a vote on Catalan independence?
Because it would be unconstitutional. They'd need to change the Spanish constitution first.
@Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.
We might make a similar mess, but I think a government confronted with a similar situation in Scotland would have called such a vote illegal, encouraged unionists to boycott it, and given support to local authorities which refused to participate.
Guy Verhofstadt doesseem to be quite a sensible guy. My sort of politician.
I disagree with him on many issues, but I think he passionately and clearly sets out his position most of the time and I respect that. I always remember a quote of his about democracy and leadership being about developing a vision and trying to convince public opinion to follow it, not simply following nationalist and populist rhetoric.
I happen to think we have not seen enough of that convincing, but I admire that he expressed the intention to lead people to a great vision, rather than go with the flow.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
We managed to agree to let the Scots have a vote on Independence.
Why is it so difficult for the Spanish Govt. to agree to a vote on Catalan independence?
Because it would be unconstitutional. They'd need to change the Spanish constitution first.
@Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.
We might make a similar mess, but I think a government confronted with a similar situation in Scotland would have called such a vote illegal, encouraged unionists to boycott it, and given support to local authorities which refused to participate.
This is one of those situations where having an unwritten constitution is a huge advantage.
"Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed, it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it." — Martin Luther King, Jr., The Quest for Peace and Justice (1964)
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
We managed to agree to let the Scots have a vote on Independence.
Why is it so difficult for the Spanish Govt. to agree to a vote on Catalan independence?
Because it would be unconstitutional. They'd need to change the Spanish constitution first.
A useful fig-leaf for a Spanish Govt. that dares not offer the vote. Doubtless they would have no problem getting constitutional change to implement EU changes.
@Kle4. No. A quick Google shows Xenophobia has mainstream definitions including fear as well as hatred and of strangers and/or the Strange as well as Foreigners. So it's a spectrum. It could mean Hatred of Foreigners or it could mean Fear of Strange. Or anything in-between. Which is why my intention and context matters.
So for instance when the Leave campaign sent target letters to provincial English voters citing support of Remain in " Scotland and London " leading to a Remain victory " despite the heartlands of the country " being against it were they being Xenophobic ? In the looser of the definitions I think they were.
"Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed, it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it." — Martin Luther King, Jr., The Quest for Peace and Justice (1964)
Sounds like you may be a Corbynite under the skin, Comrade!
"Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed, it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it." — Martin Luther King, Jr., The Quest for Peace and Justice (1964)
Sounds like you may be a Gandhian under the skin, Comrade!
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
We managed to agree to let the Scots have a vote on Independence.
Why is it so difficult for the Spanish Govt. to agree to a vote on Catalan independence?
Because it would be unconstitutional. They'd need to change the Spanish constitution first.
A useful fig-leaf for a Spanish Govt. that dares not offer the vote. Doubtless they would have no problem getting constitutional change to implement EU changes.
@Kle4. No. A quick Google shows Xenophobia has mainstream definitions including fear as well as hatred and of strangers and/or the Strange as well as Foreigners. So it's a spectrum. It could mean Hatred of Foreigners or it could mean Fear of Strange. Or anything in-between. Which is why my intention and context matters.
So for instance when the Leave campaign sent target letters to provincial English voters citing support of Remain in " Scotland and London " leading to a Remain victory " despite the heartlands of the country " being against it were they being Xenophobic ? In the looser of the definitions I think they were.
Guy Verhofstadt doesseem to be quite a sensible guy. My sort of politician.
I disagree with him on many issues, but I think he passionately and clearly sets out his position most of the time and I respect that. I always remember a quote of his about democracy and leadership being about developing a vision and trying to convince public opinion to follow it, not simply following nationalist and populist rhetoric.
I happen to think we have not seen enough of that convincing, but I admire that he expressed the intention to lead people to a great vision, rather than go with the flow.
The fact that such a person leads the European Parliament bodes well for us. He states clearly what he wants and favours negotiation. Whether that approximates to a deal we can live with, remains to be seen.
@Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.
We might make a similar mess, but I think a government confronted with a similar situation in Scotland would have called such a vote illegal, encouraged unionists to boycott it, and given support to local authorities which refused to participate.
Do you think the reaction would be the same if a similar situation happened in Northern Ireland ?
@Kle4. No. A quick Google shows Xenophobia has mainstream definitions including fear as well as hatred and of strangers and/or the Strange as well as Foreigners. So it's a spectrum. It could mean Hatred of Foreigners or it could mean Fear of Strange. Or anything in-between. Which is why my intention and context matters.
.
Yes, and I acknowledged the less severe definitions and explained why I felt your accusation that a group of people with a diverse series of views were suddenly motivated by hatred and/or fear of foreigners still makes little sense in the absence of other evidence to support such a view. Even if it is not racism, and I am happy to accept you in no way meant it that way, your accusation is a baseless insult since without evidence you've decided when people with diverse political views have explained why they think a thing, you are in effect saying they are wrong, they just dislike foreigners/the strange. You might well be able to find one or two people for whom that view can be supported, but you typified it as many, as typical, and that cannot be supported.
But I must be off for dinner. I am sure you did not mean to insult, but you dismissed an entire series of, for PB, mostly non-partisan and thoughtful commentary on a complex issue, with a blanket statement about xenophobia which requires the loosest definition to support in any case, and even then no explanation for why people of such diverse views suddenly come down with such a fear or dislike of the strange, and why Catalan as an issue should provoke it.
@Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or Scotland or Westmorland or Tower Hamlets was holding an illegal referendum on secession using public funds ? A referendum incidentally where the regional government holding it had explicitly said a Yes vote would trigger an immediate UDI. The whole tenor of this discussion is we'd not deploy police or use any sort of force to prevent it happening. That seems far from obvious to me. And '80s use of aggressive police tactics to enforce the law ( and then some ) during the miners strike seem a perfectly valid comparison Inn my view.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
But you weren't just asking that, since many others asked the same (some thinking we would have done better, others less sure) you accused many people of being xenophobes, in essence being racists, because of the view the spanish authorities, at least insofar as today's events, bear the brunt of the blame. If you were merely asking if we would handle it better, then the answer as seen has been diverse and to which the reasonable answer is probably that we'd hope we'd do better, and that we definitely managed to avoid it getting to this point, even though the situations are not directly applicable, but the truth is we cannot be sure what we'd do.
I don't think we have the concept of an illegal referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight. On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.
I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don't know what support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
In practical terms Scotland is no separate in relation to the UK as Alaska or Texas is to the US or Catalonia to Spain, ie it has its own legislature but also sends representatives to the national legislature and shares the same head of state as the rest of the country indeed Canada granted an independence referendum to Quebec twice just as the UK has granted one to Scotland.
"Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed, it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it." — Martin Luther King, Jr., The Quest for Peace and Justice (1964)
Sounds like you may be a Gandhian under the skin, Comrade!
Fixed it for you, babu.
Same thing, Corbyn is a follower of Gandhi style non violent protest, and political challenge to Imperialism. He even favours the simple ascetic lifestyle the same.
"Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed, it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it." — Martin Luther King, Jr., The Quest for Peace and Justice (1964)
Sounds like you may be a Gandhian under the skin, Comrade!
Fixed it for you, babu.
Same thing, Corbyn is a follower of Gandhi style non violent protest, and political challenge to Imperialism. He even favours the simple ascetic lifestyle the same.
Be true to yourself, Comrade!
Corbyn? IRA and Hamas are not exactly Non- violent
Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
The Spanish constitution ( which was ratified by a national referendum including Catalonia ) defines Spain as indivisible. This is colliding with less legal but powerful and abstract notions of self determination. It's a mess. But I do find the argument made by many on here that any Tom, dick of Harriet can have secession referendum on their own say so very odd.
Wisely noone has taken my bait over Tower Hamlets comparison. But we all know why I made it and we all know that many folk on here would put the army on the streets to prevent an illegal referendum there.
In the hand egg most teams have gone with the comprise of kneeling before the anthem and then standing. I predict trump will be tweeting how he won the argument.
@Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.
We might make a similar mess, but I think a government confronted with a similar situation in Scotland would have called such a vote illegal, encouraged unionists to boycott it, and given support to local authorities which refused to participate.
Do you think the reaction would be the same if a similar situation happened in Northern Ireland ?
Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
The UK Government supports the Spanish Riot Police beating up peaceful voters.
The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
The UK Government supports the Spanish Riot Police beating up peaceful voters.
The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
No but it is not interfering either, Spain also has a veto over any Brexit deal
Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
And quite right too. Now is the time for cool heads. If the FO had gone in all guns blazing, Sturgeon would have been the first to accuse Boris of crassness and interference. As it turns out, Sturgeon is now looking like the neo-imperialist.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
In practical terms Scotland is no separate in relation to the UK as Alaska or Texas is to the US or Catalonia to Spain, ie it has its own legislature but also sends representatives to the national legislature and shares the same head of state as the rest of the country indeed Canada granted an independence referendum to Quebec twice just as the UK has granted one to Scotland.
What would have been your reaction to the Russian or Chinese police beating up voters in an "unofficial" election / referendum ? Be honest !
"Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed, it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it." — Martin Luther King, Jr., The Quest for Peace and Justice (1964)
Sounds like you may be a Gandhian under the skin, Comrade!
Fixed it for you, babu.
Same thing, Corbyn is a follower of Gandhi style non violent protest, and political challenge to Imperialism. He even favours the simple ascetic lifestyle the same.
Be true to yourself, Comrade!
Corbyn? IRA and Hamas are not exactly Non- violent
Gandhi also had violent fellow travellers in his quest to end British Imperialism in India.
@Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or Scotland or Westmorland or Tower Hamlets was holding an illegal referendum on secession using public funds ? A referendum incidentally where the regional government holding it had explicitly said a Yes vote would trigger an immediate UDI. The whole tenor of this discussion is we'd not deploy police or use any sort of force to prevent it happening. That seems far from obvious to me. And '80s use of aggressive police tactics to enforce the law ( and then some ) during the miners strike seem a perfectly valid comparison Inn my view.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
But you weren't just asking that, since many others asked the same (some thinking we would have done better, others less sure) you accused many people of being xenophobes, in essence being racists, because of the view the spanish authorities, at least insofar as today's events, bear the brunt of the blame. If you were merely asking if we would handle it better, then the answer as seen has been diverse and to which the reasonable answer is probably that we'd hope we'd do better, and that we definitely managed to avoid it getting to this point, even though the situations are not directly applicable, but the truth is we cannot be sure what we'd do.
I don't think we have the concept of an illegal referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight. On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.
I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don't know what support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
In practical terms Scotland is no separate in relation to the UK as Alaska or Texas is to the US or Catalonia to Spain, ie it has its own legislature but also sends representatives to the national legislature and shares the same head of state as the rest of the country indeed Canada granted an independence referendum to Quebec twice just as the UK has granted one to Scotland.
What would have been your reaction to the Russian or Chinese police beating up voters in an "unofficial" election / referendum ? Be honest !
"Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed, it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it." — Martin Luther King, Jr., The Quest for Peace and Justice (1964)
Sounds like you may be a Gandhian under the skin, Comrade!
Fixed it for you, babu.
Same thing, Corbyn is a follower of Gandhi style non violent protest, and political challenge to Imperialism. He even favours the simple ascetic lifestyle the same.
Be true to yourself, Comrade!
Corbyn? IRA and Hamas are not exactly Non- violent
Gandhi also had violent fellow travellers in his quest to end British Imperialism in India.
Exactly. So much so, Subhas Chandra Bose secretly went to Berlin and then to Japan because of frustration with Gandhi. He allegedly died in a plane crash in Taiwan in 1945.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
In practical terms Scotland is no separate in relation to the UK as Alaska or Texas is to the US or Catalonia to Spain, ie it has its own legislature but also sends representatives to the national legislature and shares the same head of state as the rest of the country indeed Canada granted an independence referendum to Quebec twice just as the UK has granted one to Scotland.
What would have been your reaction to the Russian or Chinese police beating up voters in an "unofficial" election / referendum ? Be honest !
Like iin Crimea
Yes, what would have been your reaction ? Is it the same today ? Hypocrites!
@Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or Scotland or Westmorland or Tower Hamlets was holding an illegal referendum on secession using public funds ? A referendum incidentally where the regional government holding it had explicitly said a Yes vote would trigger an immediate UDI. The whole tenor of this discussion is we'd not deploy police or use any sort of force to prevent it happening. That seems far from obvious to me. And '80s use of aggressive police tactics to enforce the law ( and then some ) during the miners strike seem a perfectly valid comparison Inn my view.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
.
I don't think we have the concept of an illegal referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight. On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.
I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don't know what support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
"Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed, it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it." — Martin Luther King, Jr., The Quest for Peace and Justice (1964)
Sounds like you may be a Gandhian under the skin, Comrade!
Fixed it for you, babu.
Same thing, Corbyn is a follower of Gandhi style non violent protest, and political challenge to Imperialism. He even favours the simple ascetic lifestyle the same.
Be true to yourself, Comrade!
Corbyn? IRA and Hamas are not exactly Non- violent
Gandhi also had violent fellow travellers in his quest to end British Imperialism in India.
Gandhi believed in non-violence, he never supported violence
"Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed, it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it." — Martin Luther King, Jr., The Quest for Peace and Justice (1964)
Sounds like you may be a Gandhian under the skin, Comrade!
Fixed it for you, babu.
Same thing, Corbyn is a follower of Gandhi style non violent protest, and political challenge to Imperialism. He even favours the simple ascetic lifestyle the same.
Be true to yourself, Comrade!
Corbyn? IRA and Hamas are not exactly Non- violent
Gandhi also had violent fellow travellers in his quest to end British Imperialism in India.
Exactly. So much so, Subhas Chandra Bose secretly went to Berlin and then to Japan because of frustration with Gandhi. He allegedly died in a plane crash in Taiwan in 1945.
But Gandhi believed in non-violence, he never supported violence.
Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
The UK Government supports the Spanish Riot Police beating up peaceful voters.
The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
No but it is not interfering either, Spain also has a veto over any Brexit deal
Yes, we have to tread on egg shells for our own good. I'm surprised that it's mainly the euro-sceptics who are ramping up the rhetoric and antagonizing the Spanish government. Personally I want Brexit to be a success, so we need to keep all our EU friends on side.
@Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or Scotland or Westmorland or Tower Hamlets was holding an illegal referendum on secession using public funds ? A referendum incidentally where the regional government holding it had explicitly said a Yes vote would trigger an immediate UDI. The whole tenor of this discussion is we'd not deploy police or use any sort of force to prevent it happening. That seems far from obvious to me. And '80s use of aggressive police tactics to enforce the law ( and then some ) during the miners strike seem a perfectly valid comparison Inn my view.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
.
I don't think we have the concept of an illegal referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight. On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.
I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don't know what support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
Northern Ireland and the Republic had twin referendums in the aftermath of Good Friday 1998.
Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
The UK Government supports the Spanish Riot Police beating up peaceful voters.
The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
No but it is not interfering either, Spain also has a veto over any Brexit deal
Yes, we have to tread on egg shells for our own good. I'm surprised that it's mainly the euro-sceptics who are ramping up the rhetoric and antagonizing the Spanish government. Personally I want Brexit to be a success, so we need to keep all our EU friends on side.
I agree, we have to be pragmatic and that means not offending Trump or Rajoy too much if we want reasonable trading relationships with our largest 2 export destinations post Brexit
Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
The UK Government supports the Spanish Riot Police beating up peaceful voters.
The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
No but it is not interfering either, Spain also has a veto over any Brexit deal
Yes, we have to tread on egg shells for our own good. I'm surprised that it's mainly the euro-sceptics who are ramping up the rhetoric and antagonizing the Spanish government. Personally I want Brexit to be a success, so we need to keep all our EU friends on side.
Including a government which beats up its own non-violent people ? Great country we are now becoming after our own referendum !
Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
The UK Government supports the Spanish Riot Police beating up peaceful voters.
The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
No but it is not interfering either, Spain also has a veto over any Brexit deal
Yes, we have to tread on egg shells for our own good. I'm surprised that it's mainly the euro-sceptics who are ramping up the rhetoric and antagonizing the Spanish government. Personally I want Brexit to be a success, so we need to keep all our EU friends on side.
I agree, we have to be pragmatic and that means not offending Trump or Rajoy too much if we want reasonable trading relationships with our largest 2 export destinations post Brexit
We cannot deal with Rajoy. Spain are part of the EU. In any case, Rajoy may not even be there next week. They can't even pass the budget.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
In practical terms Scotland is no separate in relation to the UK as Alaska or Texas is to the US or Catalonia to Spain, ie it has its own legislature but also sends representatives to the national legislature and shares the same head of state as the rest of the country indeed Canada granted an independence referendum to Quebec twice just as the UK has granted one to Scotland.
What would have been your reaction to the Russian or Chinese police beating up voters in an "unofficial" election / referendum ? Be honest !
Well given we have hosted Chinese Presidents for numerous state visits after Tiananmen Square and despite China arresting and sometimes torturing those campaigning for Tibetan independence given China's importance to the global economy and even gave Putin a state visit in 2003 despite his suppression of attempts by Chechens to gain independence I think the British government's record speaks for itself. Some 'expressions of concern' but nothing more
Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
And quite right too. Now is the time for cool heads. If the FO had gone in all guns blazing, Sturgeon would have been the first to accuse Boris of crassness and interference. As it turns out, Sturgeon is now looking like the neo-imperialist.
Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.
I don't know that there's much attempt to use the Catalan situation to attack the EU, but it is most certainly the case that the EU will be put into a most awkward position by it, especially if the Spanish government is widely seen as having heavily over-reacted. The EU and the various players within it will be pulled in multiple contradictory directions: respect for legalities, not wanting to take sides in an internal dispute, not wanting to encourage other separatist movements, not wanting to criticise an EU government, but not wanting to be seen to support a hardline crackdown. At the same time, they can't really stay out of it, because the Catalans (like the SNP) want to remain as part of the EU.
Totally agree. They've been put in a most invidious position by today's events. There really is no putting the genie back into the bottle now. Support Madrid and they risk derision across the whole continent for supporting the cack handedness with which Madrid has acted today. Support for the Catalans is unthinkable for a whole number of reasons.
I'm absolutely with the Catalans, they've been treated with contempt by Madrid, but the course and cycles of history are running in their direction, just as it is with other separatist movements across the world in the long term. It's the old adage, in good times people and nations come together, in bad times they separate apart. Madrid is trying to defend the indefensible in the long term. Catalonia will become independent again at some point, just like the EU is doomed. It's a matter of when, not if.
Don't forget the history - Catalonia was promised that it would be an equal partner in the Union of Crowns that created Spain but almost from the get go it has been subjugated.
This goes back a long time (and the UK - or at least England - was a long term friend and ally of the Kingdom of Aragon that, together with the lands of the Count of Barcelona formed Catalonia)
@Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or Scotland or Westmorland or Tower Hamlets was holding an illegal referendum on secession using public funds ? A referendum incidentally where the regional government holding it had explicitly said a Yes vote would trigger an immediate UDI. The whole tenor of this discussion is we'd not deploy police or use any sort of force to prevent it happening. That seems far from obvious to me. And '80s use of aggressive police tactics to enforce the law ( and then some ) during the miners strike seem a perfectly valid comparison Inn my view.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
.
I don't think we have the concept of an illegal referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight. On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.
I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don't know what support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
Though one wonders what the limit of localism should be. What if Antrim or Down voted to join RoI rather than remain with the 4 counties?
"Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed, it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it." — Martin Luther King, Jr., The Quest for Peace and Justice (1964)
Sounds like you may be a Gandhian under the skin, Comrade!
Fixed it for you, babu.
Same thing, Corbyn is a follower of Gandhi style non violent protest, and political challenge to Imperialism. He even favours the simple ascetic lifestyle the same.
Be true to yourself, Comrade!
Corbyn? IRA and Hamas are not exactly Non- violent
Gandhi also had violent fellow travellers in his quest to end British Imperialism in India.
Exactly. So much so, Subhas Chandra Bose secretly went to Berlin and then to Japan because of frustration with Gandhi. He allegedly died in a plane crash in Taiwan in 1945.
But Gandhi believed in non-violence, he never supported violence.
That is correct. Not many of his supporters. Some of his descendants are in power today. Not all of them believe in non-violence, e.g., those who believe in "beef fascism".
Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
The UK Government supports the Spanish Riot Police beating up peaceful voters.
The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
No but it is not interfering either, Spain also has a veto over any Brexit deal
Yes, we have to tread on egg shells for our own good. I'm surprised that it's mainly the euro-sceptics who are ramping up the rhetoric and antagonizing the Spanish government. Personally I want Brexit to be a success, so we need to keep all our EU friends on side.
I agree, we have to be pragmatic and that means not offending Trump or Rajoy too much if we want reasonable trading relationships with our largest 2 export destinations post Brexit
We cannot deal with Rajoy. Spain are part of the EU. In any case, Rajoy may not even be there next week. They can't even pass the budget.
He is PM of Spain, one of the 4 biggest economies in the EU and the country which has the largest number of British expats in the EU too. The latest 2 Spanish polls both give the PP a 5% lead over the PSOE and the next general election in Spain is not due until 2020
@Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.
We might make a similar mess, but I think a government confronted with a similar situation in Scotland would have called such a vote illegal, encouraged unionists to boycott it, and given support to local authorities which refused to participate.
Do you think the reaction would be the same if a similar situation happened in Northern Ireland ?
If Sinn Fein went ahead and organised an unofficial referendum, it would be a damp squib, because pro-Union voters would ignore it.
Comments
How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
I do not believe accusations of xenophobia, effectively racism in my view, should be made lightly, and you appear to have made it on the basis that others dare to hold a firmer, if still nuanced view, than yourself. Such a view might be wrong, but unreasonable for people to hold? Only possible if someone is a xenophobia racist? The simplest answer usually being the best, it seems more probable to me people simply hold that view, given there is such a wide spectrum of people thinking it it makes little sense, in the total absence of other evidence, to suggest they are all xenophobes.
As we have been repeatedly told, the issue is one which demands quite a lot of nuance, and it is not as simple as one either supports the nation state or not.
They should have said the vote was meaningless and called for a boycott and left it at that. Stoking the fire like this was a dreadful idea.
They’d declare it illegal, tell everyone to boycott it, challenge it in the courts and so on, but to try and physically prevent people voting using the Guardia Civil is absurd.
https://twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/status/914524846670958600
https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/914530417570668544
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/malaysia-post-race-analysis-2017.html
I defy you to suggest how people with such a wide birth of views on everything from Brexit to scottish independence could all reasonably be motivated by xenophobia, of hating and/or fearing foreigners. Because that is definitely what you did say, as you defined it as 'many' comments, ie more than a few.
Why are Tories, and Labour supporters and SNP supporters who disagree on so many things suddenly sharing a hatred and/or fear of foreigners on this issue? With no other reason to suspect so many people of being xenophobes, it is far more reasonable to assume they mean what they say they mean, rather than insult them and say 'No, you just hate/fear/dislike foreigners'.
I'd also point out that, imperfect though it is, a thesaurus will give racism as a synonym for xenophobia - the two are quite often reasonably connected.
The 60% against might be a bit outdated though...
Quite good soldiers, though...
Why is it so difficult for the Spanish Govt. to agree to a vote on Catalan independence?
I happen to think we have not seen enough of that convincing, but I admire that he expressed the intention to lead people to a great vision, rather than go with the flow.
— Martin Luther King, Jr., The Quest for Peace and Justice (1964)
So for instance when the Leave campaign sent target letters to provincial English voters citing support of Remain in " Scotland and London " leading to a Remain victory " despite the heartlands of the country " being against it were they being Xenophobic ? In the looser of the definitions I think they were.
But I must be off for dinner. I am sure you did not mean to insult, but you dismissed an entire series of, for PB, mostly non-partisan and thoughtful commentary on a complex issue, with a blanket statement about xenophobia which requires the loosest definition to support in any case, and even then no explanation for why people of such diverse views suddenly come down with such a fear or dislike of the strange, and why Catalan as an issue should provoke it.
On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.
I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don't know what support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
Be true to yourself, Comrade!
Wisely noone has taken my bait over Tower Hamlets comparison. But we all know why I made it and we all know that many folk on here would put the army on the streets to prevent an illegal referendum there.
The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
This goes back a long time (and the UK - or at least England - was a long term friend and ally of the Kingdom of Aragon that, together with the lands of the Count of Barcelona formed Catalonia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Spanish_general_election