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  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    Tim_B said:

    Pulpstar said:

    viewcode said:



    POINT 1
    A good definition of class in 2010's South-East England looks like this:

    lower working class: will never buy property, because they cannot afford it
    upper working class: buys property via mortgage, pays own deposit
    lower middle class: buys property via mortgage, relatives pay for deposit
    upper middle class: buys property outright, relatives pay for house
    upper class: will never buy property, because they will inherit

    Hmm. I don't buy property because I want someone else to look after the infrastructure while I spend my money on enjoying life. I like there being lots of BTL landlords as it gives me more choice. What class is that?
    Not sure but I can deduce a few things

    1) You most likely live in London - it has the lowest rental yields in the country.
    2) You have no pets, or small ones if any.
    3) You don't particularly have tonnes of material possessions (By weight & volume)
    The fundamental problem is not BTL, or second homes or any such thing - it is a huge lack of housing supply to meet demand, particularly in certain areas. Address that and you solve the problem.

    Yes, I know that it is an easy problem to state but by no means easy to solve. But it has been the case since the 1970s in the UK since I became a home owner there.
    It's an amazing coincidence that house prices started to rocket at exactly the same time as Tennant's rights were weakened and BTL mortgages were introduced.
    Tim is simply wrong. The housing unaffordability crisis owes at least as much to the financial and regulatory environment as it does to the amount of houses.
  • Options
    Mr. Sandpit, cheers for mentioning those. Think the Rosberg interview's been up on the website. Who presents the Channel 4 programme? May catch that later, unless it's the irksome one.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Elliot said:

    I suspect this will affect our politics more than Brexit does over the next decade or two. Britain to become 17% Muslim by 2050.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/

    I mentioned this a few days ago but was met with tumbleweed. I suppose it's the combination of a) being far in the future b) raising very fundamental questions about Britain's future as a nation and c) there being no easy solutions.

    On a less disturbing but still interesting front, we are probably about 10 years away from White British births being a minority in England and Wales.
    17% seems like a big over-estimate to me, unless many non-Muslims convert.
    I would like you to be right, but I don't think you are. The White British population is already in absolute decline; Pew estimate that over 40% of immigrants are Muslim, with a birth rate of nearly 3, which is higher than all non-Muslim groups.

    It's like compound interest.
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    edited December 2017



    You are not going to get to see what was agreed, I suspect. The aim will be to make it almost impossible to know how much the UK has agreed to pay and, I suspect, it will be very hard to get a clear answer on what has been given up in respect of the ECJ.

    The ECJ is a key issue, because it actually makes no legal sense for the UKSC to be able to refer matters to the ECJ on citizens rights. The text of the agreement will be in the A50 treaty, and there is no reason that the UKSC will need to refer this to the ECJ for clarification UNLESS what is really happening is that the UK have conceded that exiting EU laws on citizens will continue to apply after Brexit (otherwise existing EU case law is not relevant to interpreting the treaty obligations so nothing would ever get referred to them). This is not a fudging of the red line, it is a massive breach. So I suspect we will get very little detail on what has actually been agreed.

    If the public are asked to choose between a fudge on the ECJ / NI or the economic chaos of no deal, they will overwhelming choose the former. The unrealistic promises and untruths of the Leave campaign are coming home to roost.
  • Options
    @archer101au

    It's strange, being so certain on British public opinion and yet being so far away. I'm just over the water, can watch Spotlight or BBC News in realtime and but don't feel that I can make sweeping judgements on "the people".
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    edited December 2017

    Mr. Sandpit, cheers for mentioning those. Think the Rosberg interview's been up on the website. Who presents the Channel 4 programme? May catch that later, unless it's the irksome one.

    C4 Programme narrated by Benedict Cumberbatch, of all people.
    http://www.channel4.com/programmes/f1-2017-hamiltons-record-breaking-season

    Somewhat more fun than watching the cricket right now...
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,589
    Sandpit said:

    Well that was a shocking innings from England.

    They’ll make us bat again, or rattle off a quick 150 and put us back in for a few overs tonight?

    Dire it might have been - but were you really shocked ?
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg tops new Conservative Home Tory members poll on 18%. Gove is second on 12%, Boris third on 11%, Davis 4th on 8%. Rabb is 5th, Rudd 7th, Stewart 8th and Hunt 9th and Patel 10th.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/12/next-tory-leader-our-survey-rees-mogg-leads-gove-is-second-and-none-of-the-above-still-beats-the-lot.html

    Just 18% for the front runner! What a mess they are in.
    Though even Corbyn did not get more than 50% until the leadership campaign itself was well under way.
    My MP was excitedly tweeting Liz 4% Kendall was the only realistic challenger to AB during the 1st week of the 2015 campaign. She was 2nd favourite at the time.
    DESELECT HIM!
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    Mr. Sandpit, hard for me to comment on that, don't watch much cricket.

    Got to admit, I'm more thinking about next year than the season just gone.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    edited December 2017
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Well that was a shocking innings from England.

    They’ll make us bat again, or rattle off a quick 150 and put us back in for a few overs tonight?

    Dire it might have been - but were you really shocked ?
    Well not exactly, given all that's gone before. I emptied my Betfair account balance onto the hosts at 1.12 so I'll be happy either way!!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,589
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Well that was a shocking innings from England.

    They’ll make us bat again, or rattle off a quick 150 and put us back in for a few overs tonight?

    Dire it might have been - but were you really shocked ?
    Well not exactly, given all that's gone before. I emptied my Betfair account balance onto the hosts at 1.12 so I'll be happy either way!!
    I think your money is probably safe...

    It's quite telling that Australia didn't enforce the follow on. The lack of depth in their bowling attack might have been a weakness, had our top order shown a little more stickability.
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg tops new Conservative Home Tory members poll on 18%. Gove is second on 12%, Boris third on 11%, Davis 4th on 8%. Rabb is 5th, Rudd 7th, Stewart 8th and Hunt 9th and Patel 10th.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/12/next-tory-leader-our-survey-rees-mogg-leads-gove-is-second-and-none-of-the-above-still-beats-the-lot.html

    Just 18% for the front runner! What a mess they are in.
    Though even Corbyn did not get more than 50% until the leadership campaign itself was well under way.
    My MP was excitedly tweeting Liz 4% Kendall was the only realistic challenger to AB during the 1st week of the 2015 campaign. She was 2nd favourite at the time.
    I paid my £3 to be part of that 4%
    Me too

    Among registered supporters she only got 2.4% (2574) so we are in a really elite club
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    RoyalBlue said:

    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Elliot said:

    I suspect this will affect our politics more than Brexit does over the next decade or two. Britain to become 17% Muslim by 2050.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/

    I mentioned this a few days ago but was met with tumbleweed. I suppose it's the combination of a) being far in the future b) raising very fundamental questions about Britain's future as a nation and c) there being no easy solutions.

    On a less disturbing but still interesting front, we are probably about 10 years away from White British births being a minority in England and Wales.
    17% seems like a big over-estimate to me, unless many non-Muslims convert.
    I would like you to be right, but I don't think you are. The White British population is already in absolute decline; Pew estimate that over 40% of immigrants are Muslim, with a birth rate of nearly 3, which is higher than all non-Muslim groups.

    It's like compound interest.
    About half of immigrants come from the EU. It's unlikely that Muslims are more than 10% of their number. That means 70-80% of non EU immigrants would have to Muslims, which seems unlikely.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg tops new Conservative Home Tory members poll on 18%. Gove is second on 12%, Boris third on 11%, Davis 4th on 8%. Rabb is 5th, Rudd 7th, Stewart 8th and Hunt 9th and Patel 10th.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/12/next-tory-leader-our-survey-rees-mogg-leads-gove-is-second-and-none-of-the-above-still-beats-the-lot.html

    Just 18% for the front runner! What a mess they are in.
    Though even Corbyn did not get more than 50% until the leadership campaign itself was well under way.
    My MP was excitedly tweeting Liz 4% Kendall was the only realistic challenger to AB during the 1st week of the 2015 campaign. She was 2nd favourite at the time.
    I honestly wonder if Labour should have deselected Natascha Engel before the 2017 GE, she's on INEOS payroll now I think - my guess is Rowley will probably hold on in 2022 whereas if Engel hadn't fought the 17 GE Labour would have more of a chance. Definitely tainted the brand..
  • Options
    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg tops new Conservative Home Tory members poll on 18%. Gove is second on 12%, Boris third on 11%, Davis 4th on 8%. Rabb is 5th, Rudd 7th, Stewart 8th and Hunt 9th and Patel 10th.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/12/next-tory-leader-our-survey-rees-mogg-leads-gove-is-second-and-none-of-the-above-still-beats-the-lot.html

    Just 18% for the front runner! What a mess they are in.
    Though even Corbyn did not get more than 50% until the leadership campaign itself was well under way.
    My MP was excitedly tweeting Liz 4% Kendall was the only realistic challenger to AB during the 1st week of the 2015 campaign. She was 2nd favourite at the time.
    I honestly wonder if Labour should have deselected Natascha Engel before the 2017 GE, she's on INEOS payroll now I think - my guess is Rowley will probably hold on in 2022 whereas if Engel hadn't fought the 17 GE Labour would have more of a chance. Definitely tainted the brand..
    What makes you say that? I haven't heard her name mentioned in that context before.
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Elliot said:

    I suspect this will affect our politics more than Brexit does over the next decade or two. Britain to become 17% Muslim by 2050.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/

    I mentioned this a few days ago but was met with tumbleweed. I suppose it's the combination of a) being far in the future b) raising very fundamental questions about Britain's future as a nation and c) there being no easy solutions.

    On a less disturbing but still interesting front, we are probably about 10 years away from White British births being a minority in England and Wales.
    17% seems like a big over-estimate to me, unless many non-Muslims convert.
    I would like you to be right, but I don't think you are. The White British population is already in absolute decline; Pew estimate that over 40% of immigrants are Muslim, with a birth rate of nearly 3, which is higher than all non-Muslim groups.

    It's like compound interest.
    About half of immigrants come from the EU. It's unlikely that Muslims are more than 10% of their number. That means 70-80% of non EU immigrants would have to Muslims, which seems unlikely.
    Indeed, these figures seem like baloney. Would be good to know their definition of "immigrant" too - surely only someone who is eligible (eventually) for permanent residence. I wonder if they are counting tourists.
  • Options
    ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Elliot said:

    I suspect this will affect our politics more than Brexit does over the next decade or two. Britain to become 17% Muslim by 2050.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/

    I mentioned this a few days ago but was met with tumbleweed. I suppose it's the combination of a) being far in the future b) raising very fundamental questions about Britain's future as a nation and c) there being no easy solutions.

    On a less disturbing but still interesting front, we are probably about 10 years away from White British births being a minority in England and Wales.
    17% seems like a big over-estimate to me, unless many non-Muslims convert.
    I would like you to be right, but I don't think you are. The White British population is already in absolute decline; Pew estimate that over 40% of immigrants are Muslim, with a birth rate of nearly 3, which is higher than all non-Muslim groups.

    It's like compound interest.
    About half of immigrants come from the EU. It's unlikely that Muslims are more than 10% of their number. That means 70-80% of non EU immigrants would have to Muslims, which seems unlikely.
    If you read the methodology about half comes from fertility differentials between Muslims and non-Muslims and half from immigration. Religious switching is tiny. Apparently, 43% of migrants to the UK from 2010-2016 were Muslim. They say this is estimated by looking at countries of origin and religious share of that population. I guess India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nigeria are the main sources.
  • Options
    I assume we have already covered our "despite Brexit" news of the morning in relation to Facebook's announcement?
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Elliot said:

    I suspect this will affect our politics more than Brexit does over the next decade or two. Britain to become 17% Muslim by 2050.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/

    I mentioned this a few days ago but was met with tumbleweed. I suppose it's the combination of a) being far in the future b) raising very fundamental questions about Britain's future as a nation and c) there being no easy solutions.

    On a less disturbing but still interesting front, we are probably about 10 years away from White British births being a minority in England and Wales.
    17% seems like a big over-estimate to me, unless many non-Muslims convert.
    I would like you to be right, but I don't think you are. The White British population is already in absolute decline; Pew estimate that over 40% of immigrants are Muslim, with a birth rate of nearly 3, which is higher than all non-Muslim groups.

    It's like compound interest.
    About half of immigrants come from the EU. It's unlikely that Muslims are more than 10% of their number. That means 70-80% of non EU immigrants would have to Muslims, which seems unlikely.
    I imagine they calculated the 40% based on flows over a longer period. Net immigration from the EU was less than 50% over the last 5 years, and even less over the last 10 years.

    The % of Muslim births is double the % in the general population. Of course forecasts won't be right to the percentage point, but the direction of travel is clear.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Elliot said:

    I suspect this will affect our politics more than Brexit does over the next decade or two. Britain to become 17% Muslim by 2050.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/

    I mentioned this a few days ago but was met with tumbleweed. I suppose it's the combination of a) being far in the future b) raising very fundamental questions about Britain's future as a nation and c) there being no easy solutions.

    On a less disturbing but still interesting front, we are probably about 10 years away from White British births being a minority in England and Wales.
    17% seems like a big over-estimate to me, unless many non-Muslims convert.
    I would like you to be right, but I don't think you are. The White British population is already in absolute decline; Pew estimate that over 40% of immigrants are Muslim, with a birth rate of nearly 3, which is higher than all non-Muslim groups.

    It's like compound interest.
    About half of immigrants come from the EU. It's unlikely that Muslims are more than 10% of their number. That means 70-80% of non EU immigrants would have to Muslims, which seems unlikely.
    On a point of fact, immigration is one half of the equation. The other is birth (And death) rates.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg tops new Conservative Home Tory members poll on 18%. Gove is second on 12%, Boris third on 11%, Davis 4th on 8%. Rabb is 5th, Rudd 7th, Stewart 8th and Hunt 9th and Patel 10th.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/12/next-tory-leader-our-survey-rees-mogg-leads-gove-is-second-and-none-of-the-above-still-beats-the-lot.html

    Just 18% for the front runner! What a mess they are in.
    Though even Corbyn did not get more than 50% until the leadership campaign itself was well under way.
    My MP was excitedly tweeting Liz 4% Kendall was the only realistic challenger to AB during the 1st week of the 2015 campaign. She was 2nd favourite at the time.
    I honestly wonder if Labour should have deselected Natascha Engel before the 2017 GE, she's on INEOS payroll now I think - my guess is Rowley will probably hold on in 2022 whereas if Engel hadn't fought the 17 GE Labour would have more of a chance. Definitely tainted the brand..
    What makes you say that? I haven't heard her name mentioned in that context before.
    Local facebook forum chit chat.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    I assume we have already covered our "despite Brexit" news of the morning in relation to Facebook's announcement?

    Going into Sports rights ?

    Springtime for Aaron Rodgers I guess !
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,118
    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Sandpit, cheers for mentioning those. Think the Rosberg interview's been up on the website. Who presents the Channel 4 programme? May catch that later, unless it's the irksome one.

    C4 Programme narrated by Benedict Cumberbatch, of all people.
    http://www.channel4.com/programmes/f1-2017-hamiltons-record-breaking-season

    Somewhat more fun than watching the cricket right now...
    Cumberbatch is a big motor sports fan.
  • Options
    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg tops new Conservative Home Tory members poll on 18%. Gove is second on 12%, Boris third on 11%, Davis 4th on 8%. Rabb is 5th, Rudd 7th, Stewart 8th and Hunt 9th and Patel 10th.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/12/next-tory-leader-our-survey-rees-mogg-leads-gove-is-second-and-none-of-the-above-still-beats-the-lot.html

    Just 18% for the front runner! What a mess they are in.
    Though even Corbyn did not get more than 50% until the leadership campaign itself was well under way.
    My MP was excitedly tweeting Liz 4% Kendall was the only realistic challenger to AB during the 1st week of the 2015 campaign. She was 2nd favourite at the time.
    I honestly wonder if Labour should have deselected Natascha Engel before the 2017 GE, she's on INEOS payroll now I think - my guess is Rowley will probably hold on in 2022 whereas if Engel hadn't fought the 17 GE Labour would have more of a chance. Definitely tainted the brand..
    What makes you say that? I haven't heard her name mentioned in that context before.
    Local facebook forum chit chat.
    Oh so you mean she damaged the brand in the constituency rather than more widely. She didn't have a national profile in the Party - seemed quite obscure really.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,979

    I assume we have already covered our "despite Brexit" news of the morning in relation to Facebook's announcement?

    Yep - the more interesting bit is the fact its central London rather than the 80/90's approach of somewhere in the Thames Valley.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860
    SNP: 37% (-)
    LAB: 28% (+1)
    CON: 25% (-4)

    via @Survation, 27 - 30 Nov
  • Options

    SNP: 37% (-)
    LAB: 28% (+1)
    CON: 25% (-4)

    via @Survation, 27 - 30 Nov

    When are the changes against? I though Lab ha been leading the Tories for a while
  • Options

    SNP: 37% (-)
    LAB: 28% (+1)
    CON: 25% (-4)

    via @Survation, 27 - 30 Nov

    When are the changes against? I though Lab ha been leading the Tories for a while
    GE I think.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    A history lesson for you young ‘uns.

    In 1975, we voted for the Common Market, the chorus being led enthusiastically by the media elite with the BBC in the vanguard. Even as a Europhile, as I was then, I was surprised by the partisan nature of the BBC. I was 25 and more politically engaged than I am now.

    Any small protests from the hard left ‘loons’ were met with disdain. Their comments about being frogmarched into a European super-state were laughed at. They’re inventing phantoms for frightened children to clutch at. A theoretical risk only, as we will always have opt-outs if the Europeans wanted to go that way, let alone a referendum on any major change. A paper tiger only. As likely as Turkey contemplating membership today.

    Of course, we never took on board the fact that most MPs tend to be part of the metropolitan elite, sharing supper parties with the BBC and confirmed Europhiles. Maastricht and Lisbon came and went. Tidying-up exercises only, The Eastern European “invasion” would never happen, said Blair. No need to worry, go back to sleep.

    Now FOM, the ECJ, sovereignty, and plans for a European ‘defence force’ are integral to a common market and always were.

    But the voters have been woken.

    Labour will claim that a common trade area can be negotiated if only we negotiate better. That’s impossible if the EU is to survive.

    What do the people who know better do now?

    A politician will claim that keeping all the four freedoms is economically necessary and in line with the vote. Suppressed laughter, Keir.

    The Guardian ... they’re thick Neanderthals and don’t count.

    The elite … they’ve changed their mind, or will if we delay long enough. How long? As long as it takes. Long enough for the oldies who were there in 1975 to forget the lies.

    That remains my major issue. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

    We can stay in the EU if we’re willing to sacrifice real democracy. Some are.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg tops new Conservative Home Tory members poll on 18%. Gove is second on 12%, Boris third on 11%, Davis 4th on 8%. Rabb is 5th, Rudd 7th, Stewart 8th and Hunt 9th and Patel 10th.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/12/next-tory-leader-our-survey-rees-mogg-leads-gove-is-second-and-none-of-the-above-still-beats-the-lot.html

    Just 18% for the front runner! What a mess they are in.
    Though even Corbyn did not get more than 50% until the leadership campaign itself was well under way.
    My MP was excitedly tweeting Liz 4% Kendall was the only realistic challenger to AB during the 1st week of the 2015 campaign. She was 2nd favourite at the time.
    I honestly wonder if Labour should have deselected Natascha Engel before the 2017 GE, she's on INEOS payroll now I think - my guess is Rowley will probably hold on in 2022 whereas if Engel hadn't fought the 17 GE Labour would have more of a chance. Definitely tainted the brand..
    What makes you say that? I haven't heard her name mentioned in that context before.
    Local facebook forum chit chat.
    https://www.ineos.com/businesses/ineos-shale/news/ineos-shale-commission-former-mp-natascha-engel/
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,984
    edited December 2017
    CD13 said:

    A history lesson for you young ‘uns.

    In 1975, we voted for the Common Market, the chorus being led enthusiastically by the media elite with the BBC in the vanguard. Even as a Europhile, as I was then, I was surprised by the partisan nature of the BBC. I was 25 and more politically engaged than I am now.

    Any small protests from the hard left ‘loons’ were met with disdain. Their comments about being frogmarched into a European super-state were laughed at. They’re inventing phantoms for frightened children to clutch at. A theoretical risk only, as we will always have opt-outs if the Europeans wanted to go that way, let alone a referendum on any major change. A paper tiger only. As likely as Turkey contemplating membership today.

    Of course, we never took on board the fact that most MPs tend to be part of the metropolitan elite, sharing supper parties with the BBC and confirmed Europhiles. Maastricht and Lisbon came and went. Tidying-up exercises only, The Eastern European “invasion” would never happen, said Blair. No need to worry, go back to sleep.

    Now FOM, the ECJ, sovereignty, and plans for a European ‘defence force’ are integral to a common market and always were.

    But the voters have been woken.

    Labour will claim that a common trade area can be negotiated if only we negotiate better. That’s impossible if the EU is to survive.

    What do the people who know better do now?

    A politician will claim that keeping all the four freedoms is economically necessary and in line with the vote. Suppressed laughter, Keir.

    The Guardian ... they’re thick Neanderthals and don’t count.

    The elite … they’ve changed their mind, or will if we delay long enough. How long? As long as it takes. Long enough for the oldies who were there in 1975 to forget the lies.

    That remains my major issue. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

    We can stay in the EU if we’re willing to sacrifice real democracy. Some are.

    TBH, that’s not how I recall the debate in 1975. Admittedly I was all for joining, as I was for Remaining in 2016 and indeed still am.

    And Australia 41-3!
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr Cole,

    You're older than me so I'll happily concede we see things differently.

    But as a Yes voter I did feel slightly embarrassed at the one-sided nature of the debate.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    CD13 said:

    A history lesson for you young ‘uns.

    In 1975, we voted for the Common Market, the chorus being led enthusiastically by the media elite with the BBC in the vanguard. Even as a Europhile, as I was then, I was surprised by the partisan nature of the BBC. I was 25 and more politically engaged than I am now.

    Any small protests from the hard left ‘loons’ were met with disdain. Their comments about being frogmarched into a European super-state were laughed at. They’re inventing phantoms for frightened children to clutch at. A theoretical risk only, as we will always have opt-outs if the Europeans wanted to go that way, let alone a referendum on any major change. A paper tiger only. As likely as Turkey contemplating membership today.

    Of course, we never took on board the fact that most MPs tend to be part of the metropolitan elite, sharing supper parties with the BBC and confirmed Europhiles. Maastricht and Lisbon came and went. Tidying-up exercises only, The Eastern European “invasion” would never happen, said Blair. No need to worry, go back to sleep.

    Now FOM, the ECJ, sovereignty, and plans for a European ‘defence force’ are integral to a common market and always were.

    But the voters have been woken.

    Labour will claim that a common trade area can be negotiated if only we negotiate better. That’s impossible if the EU is to survive.

    What do the people who know better do now?

    A politician will claim that keeping all the four freedoms is economically necessary and in line with the vote. Suppressed laughter, Keir.

    The Guardian ... they’re thick Neanderthals and don’t count.

    The elite … they’ve changed their mind, or will if we delay long enough. How long? As long as it takes. Long enough for the oldies who were there in 1975 to forget the lies.

    That remains my major issue. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

    We can stay in the EU if we’re willing to sacrifice real democracy. Some are.

    Er, calm down. It's an organisation that we have benefited from and contributed to as an important member over the years. There have been some compromises because you know what? That's how trade and engagement works in the modern world (excepting Pyongyang, obvs). A club, if you like, with rules. Like your Pall Mall/Working Mens' Club (delete as appropriate).

    We are and always were a sovereign and democratic nation.

    Now of course, the EU is also a very useful bogeyman. All of our ills - productivity, lack of educational attainment, technical skills, languages can be blamed on the EU. Our lack of competitiveness, our trade deficit, the inequality and lack of social mobility in our nation. All the EU's fault. So in that sense it is an important part of our nation's fabric.

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    Virtual eye is utter horseshit.
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    Mr. Topping, throwing away vetoes without democratic assent whilst simultaneously reneging upon a manifesto promise to hold a referendum doesn't exactly fill one with confidence that the political class was either being honest about it's dealings with the EU or that they were able/wanted to take the country with them.

    Where's the democracy if all parties promise a referendum, the Government reneges, the Opposition supports and the Lib Dems have a three line whip to abstain?

    I do agree that lots of things could be conveniently blamed on the EU that were either partially or wholly unrelated.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr Topping,

    At midnight on referendum day, I conceded to a Remainer friend, thinking Leave had lost. It wasn't a big issue. The EU has good points and we'll survive anyway,

    But as with the Ashe,s it's nice to win sometimes.
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    Are Graeme Swann and DavidL related?
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    CD13 said:

    A history lesson for you young ‘uns.

    In 1975, we voted for the Common Market, the chorus being led enthusiastically by the media elite with the BBC in the vanguard. Even as a Europhile, as I was then, I was surprised by the partisan nature of the BBC. I was 25 and more politically engaged than I am now.

    Any small protests from the hard left ‘loons’ were met with disdain. Their comments about being frogmarched into a European super-state were laughed at. They’re inventing phantoms for frightened children to clutch at. A theoretical risk only, as we will always have opt-outs if the Europeans wanted to go that way, let alone a referendum on any major change. A paper tiger only. As likely as Turkey contemplating membership today.

    Of course, we never took on board the fact that most MPs tend to be part of the metropolitan elite, sharing supper parties with the BBC and confirmed Europhiles. Maastricht and Lisbon came and went. Tidying-up exercises only, The Eastern European “invasion” would never happen, said Blair. No need to worry, go back to sleep.

    Now FOM, the ECJ, sovereignty, and plans for a European ‘defence force’ are integral to a common market and always were.

    But the voters have been woken.

    Labour will claim that a common trade area can be negotiated if only we negotiate better. That’s impossible if the EU is to survive.

    What do the people who know better do now?

    A politician will claim that keeping all the four freedoms is economically necessary and in line with the vote. Suppressed laughter, Keir.

    The Guardian ... they’re thick Neanderthals and don’t count.

    The elite … they’ve changed their mind, or will if we delay long enough. How long? As long as it takes. Long enough for the oldies who were there in 1975 to forget the lies.

    That remains my major issue. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

    We can stay in the EU if we’re willing to sacrifice real democracy. Some are.

    Any update on how the House of Lords fits with 'real democracy'?
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    CD13 said:

    A history lesson for you young ‘uns.

    In 1975, we voted for the Common Market, the chorus being led enthusiastically by the media elite with the BBC in the vanguard. Even as a Europhile, as I was then, I was surprised by the partisan nature of the BBC. I was 25 and more politically engaged than I am now.

    Any small protests from the hard left ‘loons’ were met with disdain. Their comments about being frogmarched into a European super-state were laughed at. They’re inventing phantoms for frightened children to clutch at. A theoretical risk only, as we will always have opt-outs if the Europeans wanted to go that way, let alone a referendum on any major change. A paper tiger only. As likely as Turkey contemplating membership today.

    Of course, we never took on board the fact that most MPs tend to be part of the metropolitan elite, sharing supper parties with the BBC and confirmed Europhiles. Maastricht and Lisbon came and went. Tidying-up exercises only, The Eastern European “invasion” would never happen, said Blair. No need to worry, go back to sleep.

    Now FOM, the ECJ, sovereignty, and plans for a European ‘defence force’ are integral to a common market and always were.

    But the voters have been woken.

    Labour will claim that a common trade area can be negotiated if only we negotiate better. That’s impossible if the EU is to survive.

    What do the people who know better do now?

    A politician will claim that keeping all the four freedoms is economically necessary and in line with the vote. Suppressed laughter, Keir.

    The Guardian ... they’re thick Neanderthals and don’t count.

    The elite … they’ve changed their mind, or will if we delay long enough. How long? As long as it takes. Long enough for the oldies who were there in 1975 to forget the lies.

    That remains my major issue. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

    We can stay in the EU if we’re willing to sacrifice real democracy. Some are.

    Invasion?

    And to think you used to chastise Remain for hyperbole.
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    RoyalBlue said:

    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Elliot said:

    I suspect this will affect our politics more than Brexit does over the next decade or two. Britain to become 17% Muslim by 2050.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/

    I mentioned this a few days ago but was met with tumbleweed. I suppose it's the combination of a) being far in the future b) raising very fundamental questions about Britain's future as a nation and c) there being no easy solutions.

    On a less disturbing but still interesting front, we are probably about 10 years away from White British births being a minority in England and Wales.
    17% seems like a big over-estimate to me, unless many non-Muslims convert.
    I would like you to be right, but I don't think you are. The White British population is already in absolute decline; Pew estimate that over 40% of immigrants are Muslim, with a birth rate of nearly 3, which is higher than all non-Muslim groups.

    It's like compound interest.
    About half of immigrants come from the EU. It's unlikely that Muslims are more than 10% of their number. That means 70-80% of non EU immigrants would have to Muslims, which seems unlikely.
    I imagine they calculated the 40% based on flows over a longer period. Net immigration from the EU was less than 50% over the last 5 years, and even less over the last 10 years.

    The % of Muslim births is double the % in the general population. Of course forecasts won't be right to the percentage point, but the direction of travel is clear.
    Pew do seem to assume that children of Muslims will automatically be Muslim. At present that is largely true, but there is a small but growing trickle who are converting to Christianity, and a probably larger trickle who are leaving Islam and becoming secularised. (Numbers are not easy to estimate because of the dangers involved in either of these courses.) If these trends continue to grow, and assuming that the children of these people are unlikely to be Muslims, that will reduce the "compound interest" effect. Pew's estimates don't seem to take account of that.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    edited December 2017
    CD13 said:

    Mr Topping,

    At midnight on referendum day, I conceded to a Remainer friend, thinking Leave had lost. It wasn't a big issue. The EU has good points and we'll survive anyway,

    But as with the Ashe,s it's nice to win sometimes.

    Of course - and there are several people, especially on PB, who I am very happy for, having won. I will add you to that list!
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    They won't stop until Corbyn himself represents the right of the party.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    edited December 2017
    Ooh, 50/4 possibly...

    Edit: not just possibly :)
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    There is definitely a problem with Virtual eye.
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    F1: missed this the other day, but it seems Sauber's lineup will be Ericsson and Leclerc:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42207929

    Not a huge surprise, to be honest.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2017

    They won't stop until Corbyn himself represents the right of the party.
    I find it utterly scary.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,984
    50-4! Smith gone.
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    F1: missed this the other day, but it seems Sauber's lineup will be Ericsson and Leclerc:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42207929

    Not a huge surprise, to be honest.


    At the driver announcement did he say ‘It is I, Leclerc’
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    Mr. Urquhart, don't worry, comrade. Once your re-education is complete you won't feel scared at all.
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    Even if we bowl the convict out for a 100, our batting is so crap we wouldn’t be able to chase the runs down.
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    Venezuela's created its own crypto-currency:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-42217798
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    Venezuela's created its own crypto-currency:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-42217798

    Give it 5 years and after corbyn has destroyed the banks, we will be welcoming the corbyn coin....
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    BREXIT secretary David Davis has happily paid over £50 million to cancel his contract at Fitness First.

    Davis initially attempted to walk away from his gym membership without paying a penny, demanding that he still be allowed to use the showers and juice bar ‘on an ad hoc basis’, before being reminded that he had signed up to a 24-month contract.

    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/david-davis-pays-50m-to-get-out-of-gym-contract-20171204140271
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    edited December 2017

    Even if we bowl the convict out for a 100, our batting is so crap we wouldn’t be able to chase the runs down.

    (looks at book)

    We're 267 behind now, no chance at all even if they declare overnight. Has anyone ever got 267 at Adelaide in a 4th innings to win?

    Edit: Thanks to BT sport just putting up that very stat. It's been done once. In 1902.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2017
    Silly question...why does the host tv channel get to pick the ball tracking technology? Surely it should be standardised by icc. Virtual eye is technically inferior to Hawkeye, but cheaper so channel 9, the cheapskates go with that.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,984
    Sandpit said:

    Even if we bowl the convict out for a 100, our batting is so crap we wouldn’t be able to chase the runs down.

    (looks at book)

    We're 267 behind now, no chance at all even if they declare overnight. Has anyone ever got 267 at Adelaide in a 4th innings to win?

    Edit: Thanks to BT sport just putting up that very stat. It's been done once. In 1902.
    Records are made to be broken.
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    Sandpit said:

    Even if we bowl the convict out for a 100, our batting is so crap we wouldn’t be able to chase the runs down.

    (looks at book)

    We're 267 behind now, no chance at all even if they declare overnight. Has anyone ever got 267 at Adelaide in a 4th innings to win?

    Edit: Thanks to BT sport just putting up that very stat. It's been done once. In 1902.
    Records are made to be broken.
    Not with a batting line up who can’t concentrate for more than 90mins.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    Convicts going with the gamesmanship, taking a few minutes of 'injury' to avoid the nightwatchman facing another over.
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    Sandpit said:

    Convicts going with the gamesmanship, taking a few minutes of 'injury' to avoid the nightwatchman facing another over.

    A bit like us at Cardiff in 2009, that was fun and Ricky Ponting gave the physio a gobful.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,589
    Sandpit said:

    Even if we bowl the convict out for a 100, our batting is so crap we wouldn’t be able to chase the runs down.

    (looks at book)

    We're 267 behind now, no chance at all even if they declare overnight. Has anyone ever got 267 at Adelaide in a 4th innings to win?

    Edit: Thanks to BT sport just putting up that very stat. It's been done once. In 1902.
    Your money is probably still safe - but it does demonstrate that not much separates the two teams. Had we not bowled like drains in the first session of the test, we might have been in with a shout...
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060
    CD13 said:

    Mr Cole,

    You're older than me so I'll happily concede we see things differently.

    But as a Yes voter I did feel slightly embarrassed at the one-sided nature of the debate.

    The major televised debate of that campaign had higher ratings than anything in the 2016 referendum and included Peter Shore making the sovereignist case with a huge amount of passion, as well as Heath unapologetically making the political case for European union.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2jUYryRYII
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    They won't stop until Corbyn himself represents the right of the party.
    I find it utterly scary.
    The only way to stop Corbyn becoming PM is to stop Brexit, discuss.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896

    Sandpit said:

    Convicts going with the gamesmanship, taking a few minutes of 'injury' to avoid the nightwatchman facing another over.

    A bit like us at Cardiff in 2009, that was fun and Ricky Ponting gave the physio a gobful.
    Ricky Ponting, giving a gobful? Really..???

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtAkPw_mdc8
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,432
    edited December 2017
    Voting is still taking place but the early results are

    Do you consider a movie that takes place at Christmas time, but is not about Christmas itself, to be a Christmas movie?

    Yes I do - 27%

    No I do not - 55%

    Don't know - 18%

    Clearly the public agree with me, Die Hard is NOT a Christmas movie.

    https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results#/survey/e3a2d592-d8e1-11e7-ab3c-6bdc80d71212
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    Mr. Eagles, if only he were called Crabtree, it'd be even better.
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    Voting is still taking place but the early results are

    Do you consider a movie that takes place at Christmas time, but is not about Christmas itself, to be a Christmas movie?

    Yes I do - 27%

    No I do not - 55%

    Don't know - 18%

    Clearly the public agree with me, Die Hard is NOT a Christmas movie.

    https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results#/survey/e3a2d592-d8e1-11e7-ab3c-6bdc80d71212

    What do you mean

    Perfect PB Xmas day is surely wake up to some Radiohead, Hawaiian pizza for lunch, Die hard post lunch movie and late night drunken discussion of AV vs PR^2 with the relatives.
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    Voting is still taking place but the early results are

    Do you consider a movie that takes place at Christmas time, but is not about Christmas itself, to be a Christmas movie?

    Yes I do - 27%

    No I do not - 55%

    Don't know - 18%

    Clearly the public agree with me, Die Hard is NOT a Christmas movie.

    https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results#/survey/e3a2d592-d8e1-11e7-ab3c-6bdc80d71212

    That would also rule out It's A Wonderful Life, which is regarded by many as the finest Christmas movie of them all.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2017
    Sigh...this is like the whole safe space nonsense at universities.

    https://order-order.com/2017/12/04/spineless-pizza-hut-cave-to-press-hating-twitter-trolls/
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    There’s more snow in The Empire Strikes Back than there is in Die Hard.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg tops new Conservative Home Tory members poll on 18%. Gove is second on 12%, Boris third on 11%, Davis 4th on 8%. Rabb is 5th, Rudd 7th, Stewart 8th and Hunt 9th and Patel 10th.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/12/next-tory-leader-our-survey-rees-mogg-leads-gove-is-second-and-none-of-the-above-still-beats-the-lot.html

    Just 18% for the front runner! What a mess they are in.
    Though even Corbyn did not get more than 50% until the leadership campaign itself was well under way.
    My MP was excitedly tweeting Liz 4% Kendall was the only realistic challenger to AB during the 1st week of the 2015 campaign. She was 2nd favourite at the time.
    DESELECT HIM!
    Glad you are around

    My mate owes you an apology on MedicX

    He's just raised £300m for Assura and it looks like a bunch of investors sold MedicX (driving shares down) to invest in his deal...
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Mr. F, seeing what's agreed and *then* forming a judgement?! Crazy talk.

    That was the basis of the Referendum, wasn`t it?
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    Mr. Urquhart, aye, it's bed-wetting nonsense.

    Incidentally, I'm remaking a comic I first did well over a decade ago, and, ironically, the first episode really fits today's political climate in this regard.

    Mr. Eagles, The Empire Strikes Back is also excellent. To paraphrase Darth Vader: "There is no conflict [between liking Die Hard and Empire Strikes Back]".
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    Voting is still taking place but the early results are

    Do you consider a movie that takes place at Christmas time, but is not about Christmas itself, to be a Christmas movie?

    Yes I do - 27%

    No I do not - 55%

    Don't know - 18%

    Clearly the public agree with me, Die Hard is NOT a Christmas movie.

    https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results#/survey/e3a2d592-d8e1-11e7-ab3c-6bdc80d71212

    That would also rule out It's A Wonderful Life, which is regarded by many as the finest Christmas movie of them all.
    It’s A Wonderful Life is clearly a Christmas film as it features angels.
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    Scott_P said:
    The DUP won’t like that. The chances of a 2018 general election have increased.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Scott_P said:
    Davis really doing a good job with these negotiations.

    Looks like the EU have won every one of their negotiating points.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,432
    edited December 2017
    JonathanD said:



    Scott_P said:
    Davis really doing a good job with these negotiations.

    Looks like the EU have won every one of their negotiating points.
    I said it before, as part of the Brexit deal David Davis is going to sign up the UK to the Euro and Schengen
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    edited December 2017

    Scott_P said:
    The DUP won’t like that. The chances of a 2018 general election have increased.
    Immensely.

    Of course, we don't know that it's true or that the UK will go to the summit agreeing to those terms but if they do, May's government falls.
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    Scott_P said:
    What this doesn't say is whose draft text this is.
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    Scott_P said:
    What this doesn't say is whose draft text this is.
    OK. It's a joint EU-UK one. F*cking stupid of Davis, who seems to have caught Brusselsitis.
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    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    edited December 2017

    They won't stop until Corbyn himself represents the right of the party.
    I find it utterly scary.
    The only way to stop Corbyn becoming PM is to stop Brexit, discuss.
    A sensible interpretation of the UK political scenario. Brexit is hurting the Tories, given that even if Brexit is a success, it won't be so for several years, after we've got past the current imbroglio. The mess is potentially so bad that the coalition will collapse and Labour will win a 2018 or 2019 election.

    However, in the unlikely event that the Tory govt halts Brexit, it's likely that that would also precipitate an early election that Corbyn would win.

    If the parliament can go its full term it's possible that Corbyn won't be Labour leader in 2022 - he'll be approaching his 73rd birthday so might have passed the baton on to one of his acolytes.
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    Hmm. 2018 GE is 3.5 on Ladbrokes. Value, or not?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    JonathanD said:



    Scott_P said:
    Davis really doing a good job with these negotiations.

    Looks like the EU have won every one of their negotiating points.
    The Daily Mash, like Matt, hits the nail on the head most every time.

    thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/it-took-six-months-and-a-lot-of-work-but-weve-caved-completely-says-david-davis-20171129140020
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    They won't stop until Corbyn himself represents the right of the party.
    I find it utterly scary.
    The only way to stop Corbyn becoming PM is to stop Brexit, discuss.
    Stopping Brexit will ensure it.

    May might be best simply pulling the plug on the talks and taking the €55bn back off the table.
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    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038

    Scott_P said:
    The DUP won’t like that. The chances of a 2018 general election have increased.
    The sword of Damocles is being polished as we speak...

    Does the DUP want a Labour government, one that will have even worse policies regarding Ireland?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,589

    Voting is still taking place but the early results are

    Do you consider a movie that takes place at Christmas time, but is not about Christmas itself, to be a Christmas movie?

    Yes I do - 27%

    No I do not - 55%

    Don't know - 18%

    Clearly the public agree with me, Die Hard is NOT a Christmas movie.

    https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results#/survey/e3a2d592-d8e1-11e7-ab3c-6bdc80d71212

    Nonsense.
    The public, as has become depressingly predictable, haven't got a clue.
    :smile:

    Die Hard is of course a Christmas movie, and a very good movie - just not a very good Christmas movie.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    Nigelb said:

    Voting is still taking place but the early results are

    Do you consider a movie that takes place at Christmas time, but is not about Christmas itself, to be a Christmas movie?

    Yes I do - 27%

    No I do not - 55%

    Don't know - 18%

    Clearly the public agree with me, Die Hard is NOT a Christmas movie.

    https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results#/survey/e3a2d592-d8e1-11e7-ab3c-6bdc80d71212

    Nonsense.
    The public, as has become depressingly predictable, haven't got a clue.
    :smile:

    Die Hard is of course a Christmas movie, and a very good movie - just not a very good Christmas movie.
    The Great Escape!
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    awww crap, the s**t is really going to hit the fan isn't it.

    Corbs for PM, strap in lads, this is going to hurt.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,589

    Voting is still taking place but the early results are

    Do you consider a movie that takes place at Christmas time, but is not about Christmas itself, to be a Christmas movie?

    Yes I do - 27%

    No I do not - 55%

    Don't know - 18%

    Clearly the public agree with me, Die Hard is NOT a Christmas movie.

    https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results#/survey/e3a2d592-d8e1-11e7-ab3c-6bdc80d71212

    That would also rule out It's A Wonderful Life, which is regarded by many as the finest Christmas movie of them all.
    There are not very many Christian virtues on display in Die Hard...
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    Voting is still taking place but the early results are

    Do you consider a movie that takes place at Christmas time, but is not about Christmas itself, to be a Christmas movie?

    Yes I do - 27%

    No I do not - 55%

    Don't know - 18%

    Clearly the public agree with me, Die Hard is NOT a Christmas movie.

    https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results#/survey/e3a2d592-d8e1-11e7-ab3c-6bdc80d71212

    That would also rule out It's A Wonderful Life, which is regarded by many as the finest Christmas movie of them all.
    It’s A Wonderful Life is clearly a Christmas film as it features angels.
    That can't be the test because there are plenty of films featuring angels that are clearly not Christmas films (eg Dogma).
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    JonathanD said:



    Scott_P said:
    Davis really doing a good job with these negotiations.

    Looks like the EU have won every one of their negotiating points.
    I said it before, as part of the Brexit deal David Davis is going to sign up the UK to the Euro and Schengen
    Logically impossible as there would be no Brexit then but EU+
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    They won't stop until Corbyn himself represents the right of the party.
    I find it utterly scary.
    The only way to stop Corbyn becoming PM is to stop Brexit, discuss.
    If the Tories stopped Brexit then Corbyn would become PM with a majority as so many Tory voters would defect to UKIP.

    If Corbyn became PM and stopped Brexit though that would give the Tories an opening with Labour Leavers.
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    Dadge said:

    Scott_P said:
    The DUP won’t like that. The chances of a 2018 general election have increased.
    The sword of Damocles is being polished as we speak...

    Does the DUP want a Labour government, one that will have even worse policies regarding Ireland?
    I don't think the govt (or anyone else) can assume the DUP will blindly back the Tories on that basis and it'd be a significant error to think they would.

    The trick the DUP would try to finesse if May and Davis put forward a divergence between GB and NI would be to block that proposal via Con backbenchers (who'd have no love for it anyway). But the threat of withdrawing support would have to be real to make it work.

    However, as others have said, have the DUP ever been proven to have bluffed about anything?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    Regulatory equivalence between ROI and NI. How does that work? There is currently regulatory divergence on issues like duties, VAT, and Corp tax anyway....
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    I wonder if the odds on a second referendum will shorten too.
This discussion has been closed.