If the people elect a Labour government, I won’t throw a tantrum when told to pay higher taxes, even though I’m opposed to them. That’s what living in a democratic nation state means.
You have quite the entitlement mentality.
You think that Remain supporters are supposed to cheer to the rafters if they lose their jobs because of Brexit because of the referendum result? Get real.
No, I don’t. I think they should have the emotional maturity to accept the referendum outcome. Political decisions have negative impacts on individuals all the time; Brexit is not unique in this regard. It’s just that most of the people whining aren’t used to political decisions going the ‘wrong’ way.
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
this would be the same NI you wanted to ditch for a tax cut ?
chortle
Yeah, I was hoping in the transition deal Mrs May and David Davis would give away Northern Ireland to the Republic.
On topic, there's something weirdly impressive that half of Conservative voters are entirely up for threatening British jobs and living standards. I expect most of them would be willing to accuse non-believers in Brexit of being traitors and saboteurs.
Nothing odd or impressive about it. That's what voters decided, having been very fully warned that their decision would have a deleterious effect on the economy. I'm not so arrogant as to think my opinion that they were mistaken should override their decision, especially since the only relevant new piece of information is that the economic damage is so far less than feared.
There is more to life than money. As anybody who has ever left a crappy but highly paid job for a less stressful one can attest to.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws. That remainers still don't get this after going all-in on the economic argument two years ago beggars belief.
My argument is a little different. I accept and have always accepted that it is possible to mitigate Brexit so the damage is contained to an acceptable level. But that requires the UK to cooperate with the EU and accept its rules. The difference is that we no longer have a say on those rules that bind us. We go from being a member state of the EU to a client state.
Sovereignty is important to me. The only semi good reason for leaving the EU is to have more say over our own affairs. But here's the paradox. A vote to leave the EU in the name of sovereignty actually delivers less of it. Moreover Remainers are actually more interested in making choices and the exercise of sovereignty than Leavers, who mostly are mostly attracted by the IDEA of sovereignty and have little interest in making hard choices. The Leaver lack of interest in making choices probably will see the compromised Brexit go ahead, while Remainers will take a BINO in preference to a car crash.
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
this would be the same NI you wanted to ditch for a tax cut ?
chortle
Yeah, I was hoping in the transition deal Mrs May and David Davis would give away Northern Ireland to the Republic.
If the people elect a Labour government, I won’t throw a tantrum when told to pay higher taxes, even though I’m opposed to them. That’s what living in a democratic nation state means.
You have quite the entitlement mentality.
You think that Remain supporters are supposed to cheer to the rafters if they lose their jobs because of Brexit because of the referendum result? Get real.
No, I don’t. I think they should have the emotional maturity to accept the referendum outcome. Political decisions have negative impacts on individuals all the time; Brexit is not unique in this regard. It’s just that most of the people whining aren’t used to political decisions going the ‘wrong’ way.
You can't eat emotional maturity. If someone loses their job because you got your way in a referendum vote, I suggest that you don't tell them to quit whining.
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
this would be the same NI you wanted to ditch for a tax cut ?
chortle
Yeah, I was hoping in the transition deal Mrs May and David Davis would give away Northern Ireland to the Republic.
they cant afford it
luxury goods aren't for everybody
I'm content that Northern Ireland will be part of the EU post Brexit.
If the people elect a Labour government, I won’t throw a tantrum when told to pay higher taxes, even though I’m opposed to them. That’s what living in a democratic nation state means.
You have quite the entitlement mentality.
You think that Remain supporters are supposed to cheer to the rafters if they lose their jobs because of Brexit because of the referendum result? Get real.
No, I don’t. I think they should have the emotional maturity to accept the referendum outcome. Political decisions have negative impacts on individuals all the time; Brexit is not unique in this regard. It’s just that most of the people whining aren’t used to political decisions going the ‘wrong’ way.
Not that canard again. Eurosceptics had their own way for 20 years in the UK. It's revealing that someone like Daniel Hannan is now bored of it all and wants to 'move on'.
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
this would be the same NI you wanted to ditch for a tax cut ?
chortle
Yeah, I was hoping in the transition deal Mrs May and David Davis would give away Northern Ireland to the Republic.
they cant afford it
luxury goods aren't for everybody
I'm content that Northern Ireland will be part of the EU post Brexit.
since all your Brexit scare mongering has gone tits up I predict Winterfell will remain part of the UK
In all fairness, the elderly and ill-educated should be taxed to pay for the costs of Brexit.
The benefit of course is that they’ll be too slow or stupid to see it coming!
What an unpleasant post. For starters, it is probable, Gaussian distributions being what they are, that there's stacks of people as much cleverer than you as you are thanr the stupid brexity proles, and I doubt you'd accept that being taken as a point in an argument with you, here or elsewhere.
Secondly, we live in a representative democracy and, even better, for some glorious months leading up to June 2016, a direct democracy. You get results in democracies by persuading people about stuff, and you do that by going out on the street and knocking on doors, if you want to claim afterwards that the outcome was of life or death importance to you.. You and the other remoaners seem to subscribe to what has been called the Wykehamist's Fallacy, which is the belief that your view should prevail because you are cleverer than everyone else, quite independently of whether you do anything at all beyond sitting and being clever. Leave won because you are a fat, lazy horp - and that is something I tell myself, as well as you, because I am in the same boat as you are. What I don't do is react to the result like a two year old deprived of his ice cream, and spend my life creating on the internet about how howwid the howwid pwoles are, at a pitch which shatters wineglasses.
There is more to life than money. As anybody who has ever left a crappy but highly paid job for a less stressful one can attest to.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws. That remainers still don't get this after going all-in on the economic argument two years ago beggars belief.
Oh I get that many (elderly retired) Leavers would rather see the economy crash than have to deal with foreigners.
It's a shame that Leavers have to drag Remain voters who don't share their values down with them.
I am a remain voter but now want to leave but frankly your constant reference to foreigners is not my view post Brexit when I hope we will welcome people from across the world to live and work and contribute to our economy, but importantly we will have control on unrestricted immigration
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
This is the key point. Your scenario is moot because the vast bulk of Leavers think Brexit will make the UK better off economically. They are in denial of reality but that is what they believe with every fibre of their being. Asking about sacrifices is pointless because they don't believe for a second there will be sacrifices.
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
You have to admire our PM. She has been doing a masterly boiled frog operation on the Brexiteers. They are beginning to notice the rising temperature but not enough to actually leap out.
The next step up of heat will be the decision to stay in a/the customs union. Parliamentary numbers will force this on her and she will reluctantly agree. Sorry Liam. It's not lack of resolve. It's real politik. No alternative PM could do any better.
So as we approach a very soft BINO, MPs on both sides of the issue will question whether it worth it for so little? Perhaps the people should be consulted? Little by little, step by step.
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
You have to admire our PM. She has been doing a masterly boiled frog operation on the Brexiteers. They are beginning to notice the rising temperature but not enough to actually leap out.
The next step up of heat will be the decision to stay in a/the customs union. Parliamentary numbers will force this on her and she will reluctantly agree. Sorry Liam. It's not lack of resolve. It's real politik. No alternative PM could do any better.
So as we approach a very soft BINO, MPs on both sides of the issue will question whether it worth it for so little? Perhaps the people should be consulted? Little by little, step by step.
Presumably you'll give good odds on us leaving the CU, then, given you're so sure it won't happen.
In all fairness, the elderly and ill-educated should be taxed to pay for the costs of Brexit.
The benefit of course is that they’ll be too slow or stupid to see it coming!
What an unpleasant post. For starters, it is probable, Gaussian distributions being what they are, that there's stacks of people as much cleverer than you as you are thanr the stupid brexity proles, and I doubt you'd accept that being taken as a point in an argument with you, here or elsewhere.
Secondly, we live in a representative democracy and, even better, for some glorious months leading up to June 2016, a direct democracy. You get results in democracies by persuading people about stuff, and you do that by going out on the street and knocking on doors, if you want to claim afterwards that the outcome was of life or death importance to you.. You and the other remoaners seem to subscribe to what has been called the Wykehamist's Fallacy, which is the belief that your view should prevail because you are cleverer than everyone else, quite independently of whether you do anything at all beyond sitting and being clever. Leave won because you are a fat, lazy horp - and that is something I tell myself, as well as you, because I am in the same boat as you are. What I don't do is react to the result like a two year old deprived of his ice cream, and spend my life creating on the internet about how howwid the howwid pwoles are, at a pitch which shatters wineglasses.
It was a joke, you berk. As for the rest of your mewling rant, I do not actually complain about the “howwid pwoles”. Just the horrid trolls on here.
Still where? Certainly not at the top of the G20 or G7 economies. We're now mired at the bottom and billions is being lost needlessly from the UK economy every year this madness is allowed to continue.
There is more to life than money. As anybody who has ever left a crappy but highly paid job for a less stressful one can attest to.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws. That remainers still don't get this after going all-in on the economic argument two years ago beggars belief.
My argument is a little different. I accept and have always accepted that it is possible to mitigate Brexit so the damage is contained to an acceptable level. But that requires the UK to cooperate with the EU and accept its rules. The difference is that we no longer have a say on those rules that bind us. We go from being a member state of the EU to a client state.
Sovereignty is important to me. The only semi good reason for leaving the EU is to have more say over our own affairs. But here's the paradox. A vote to leave the EU in the name of sovereignty actually delivers less of it. Moreover Remainers are actually more interested in making choices and the exercise of sovereignty than Leavers, who mostly are mostly attracted by the IDEA of sovereignty and have little interest in making hard choices. The Leaver lack of interest in making choices probably will see the compromised Brexit go ahead, while Remainers will take a BINO in preference to a car crash.
This is quite a reasonable argument, and I agree with you that it is one possible outcome.
However, the one problem with this argument is that if we end up in this scenario and the voters aren't happy with it, then it is perfectly possible that they will vote in a hard brexit party committed to taking us out despite the economic cost. On topic, the poll shows 50% of Con voters may well go this way.
Of course the other outcome is that people look at Brexit and realise it's BINO or economic catastrophe and decide to rejoin. I'm happy with either outcome, so long as it has been arrived at democratically. But I do feel that BINO/"all the rules, none of the say" Brexit is just kicking the can down the road and sooner or later hard choices will have to be made, as you say.
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
You have to admire our PM. She has been doing a masterly boiled frog operation on the Brexiteers. They are beginning to notice the rising temperature but not enough to actually leap out.
The next step up of heat will be the decision to stay in a/the customs union. Parliamentary numbers will force this on her and she will reluctantly agree. Sorry Liam. It's not lack of resolve. It's real politik. No alternative PM could do any better.
So as we approach a very soft BINO, MPs on both sides of the issue will question whether it worth it for so little? Perhaps the people should be consulted? Little by little, step by step.
Presumably you'll give good odds on us leaving the CU, then, given you're so sure it won't happen.
Let me know what....
Do you know if anyone is giving odds on that? Serious question.
"An undercover investigation by Channel 4 News reveals how Cambridge Analytica secretly campaigns in elections across the world. Bosses were filmed talking about using bribes, ex-spies, fake IDs and sex workers."
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
You have to admire our PM. She has been doing a masterly boiled frog operation on the Brexiteers. They are beginning to notice the rising temperature but not enough to actually leap out.
The next step up of heat will be the decision to stay in a/the customs union. Parliamentary numbers will force this on her and she will reluctantly agree. Sorry Liam. It's not lack of resolve. It's real politik. No alternative PM could do any better.
So as we approach a very soft BINO, MPs on both sides of the issue will question whether it worth it for so little? Perhaps the people should be consulted? Little by little, step by step.
Presumably you'll give good odds on us leaving the CU, then, given you're so sure it won't happen.
Let me know what....
Do you know if anyone is giving odds on that? Serious question.
I don't, but if you quote a price I might be interested.
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
this would be the same NI you wanted to ditch for a tax cut ?
chortle
Yeah, I was hoping in the transition deal Mrs May and David Davis would give away Northern Ireland to the Republic.
In all fairness, the elderly and ill-educated should be taxed to pay for the costs of Brexit.
The benefit of course is that they’ll be too slow or stupid to see it coming!
What an unpleasant post. For starters, it is probable, Gaussian distributions being what they are, that there's stacks of people as much cleverer than you as you are thanr the stupid brexity proles, and I doubt you'd accept that being taken as a point in an argument with you, here or elsewhere.
Secondly, we live in a representative democracy and, even better, for some glorious months leading up to June 2016, a direct democracy. You get results in democracies by persuading people about stuff, and you do that by going out on the street and knocking on doors, if you want to claim afterwards that the outcome was of life or death importance to you.. You and the other remoaners seem to subscribe to what has been called the Wykehamist's Fallacy, which is the belief that your view should prevail because you are cleverer than everyone else, quite independently of whether you do anything at all beyond sitting and being clever. Leave won because you are a fat, lazy horp - and that is something I tell myself, as well as you, because I am in the same boat as you are. What I don't do is react to the result like a two year old deprived of his ice cream, and spend my life creating on the internet about how howwid the howwid pwoles are, at a pitch which shatters wineglasses.
It was a joke, you berk. As for the rest of your mewling rant, I do not actually complain about the “howwid pwoles”. Just the horrid trolls on here.
"I don't like darkies." (Joke, only kidding, LOL, you berk). Happy with that?
I was not identifying you personally as the Prolefinder General.
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
Belief in democracy now makes me a "numpty". Charming.
I can only assume that your desire to ride roughshod over the views of the majority in either your own personal interest or for what you perceive as "the greater good" makes you a fascist.
I don't desire to ride roughshod over the views of the majority. I defer to it.
That doesn't make me like a victory won through xenophobic lies any the more though, and self-deluding tosh about Britain not currently being a democracy does indeed mark you out as a numpty. You still haven't answered the point about asking others who don't believe in your mania to make sacrifices for a cause they don't subscribe to.
You're a very rude and unpleasant man and I don't feel inclined to respond to ad hominems.
I wouldn’t rise to it.
So you too are relaxed about asking others who bitterly oppose your mad hobbyhorse to make sacrifices so you can enjoy it?
If the people elect a Labour government, I won’t throw a tantrum when told to pay higher taxes, even though I’m opposed to them. That’s what living in a democratic nation state means.
A fair enough point. Always provided that the rules for elections are clear and fair, and nobody tries to get round them in order to get themselves a majority of seats in Parliament.
There is a problem here - looking backwards...... Looking forwards, there may be as well....
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
this would be the same NI you wanted to ditch for a tax cut ?
chortle
Yeah, I was hoping in the transition deal Mrs May and David Davis would give away Northern Ireland to the Republic.
In all fairness, the elderly and ill-educated should be taxed to pay for the costs of Brexit.
to the result like a two year old deprived of his ice cream, and spend my life creating on the internet about how howwid the howwid pwoles are, at a pitch which shatters wineglasses.
It was a joke, you berk. As for the rest of your mewling rant, I do not actually complain about the “howwid pwoles”. Just the horrid trolls on here.
"I don't like darkies." (Joke, only kidding, LOL, you berk). Happy with that?
I was not identifying you personally as the Prolefinder General.
Nope. I didn’t joke about race. Whereas, you just went there.
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
You have to admire our PM. She has been doing a masterly boiled frog operation on the Brexiteers. They are beginning to notice the rising temperature but not enough to actually leap out.
The next step up of heat will be the decision to stay in a/the customs union. Parliamentary numbers will force this on her and she will reluctantly agree. Sorry Liam. It's not lack of resolve. It's real politik. No alternative PM could do any better.
So as we approach a very soft BINO, MPs on both sides of the issue will question whether it worth it for so little? Perhaps the people should be consulted? Little by little, step by step.
Presumably you'll give good odds on us leaving the CU, then, given you're so sure it won't happen.
Let me know what....
Do you know if anyone is giving odds on that? Serious question.
I don't, but if you quote a price I might be interested.
I never make personal bets. It's the way to lose friends. But I'm very interested in this market with bookies or exchanges.
Some genuine old fashioned investigative journalism from C4 News tonight. More to come tomorrow apparently. Many questions for Cambridge Analytica and others no doubt.
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
this would be the same NI you wanted to ditch for a tax cut ?
chortle
Yeah, I was hoping in the transition deal Mrs May and David Davis would give away Northern Ireland to the Republic.
... and with it their 'majority'.
Does the Republic actually want unification with NI? Keeping NI in the EU may not quite be the same thing.
In all fairness, the elderly and ill-educated should be taxed to pay for the costs of Brexit.
to the result like a two year old deprived of his ice cream, and spend my life creating on the internet about how howwid the howwid pwoles are, at a pitch which shatters wineglasses.
It was a joke, you berk. As for the rest of your mewling rant, I do not actually complain about the “howwid pwoles”. Just the horrid trolls on here.
"I don't like darkies." (Joke, only kidding, LOL, you berk). Happy with that?
I was not identifying you personally as the Prolefinder General.
Nope. I didn’t joke about race. Whereas, you just went there.
"Went there"? And the point of that post was, very precisely, that it wasn't a joke and wasn't capable of being a joke. i think you need to reassess the you/Leaver intelligence disparity.
In all fairness, the elderly and ill-educated should be taxed to pay for the costs of Brexit.
to the result like a two year old deprived of his ice cream, and spend my life creating on the internet about how howwid the howwid pwoles are, at a pitch which shatters wineglasses.
It was a joke, you berk. As for the rest of your mewling rant, I do not actually complain about the “howwid pwoles”. Just the horrid trolls on here.
"I don't like darkies." (Joke, only kidding, LOL, you berk). Happy with that?
I was not identifying you personally as the Prolefinder General.
Nope. I didn’t joke about race. Whereas, you just went there.
"Went there"? And the point of that post was, very precisely, that it wasn't a joke and wasn't capable of being a joke. i think you need to reassess the you/Leaver intelligence disparity.
No. I made a joke about the old being too slow to evade Brexit taxes. You seemed to take offence and then suggested it was akin to joking about darkies.
Some genuine old fashioned investigative journalism from C4 News tonight. More to come tomorrow apparently. Many questions for Cambridge Analytica and others no doubt.
What surprised me was how much Cambridge Analytica turns out to be an old-fashioned dirty tricks operation. The fact that they operate through an opaque haze of shell companies also explains some of the conflicting stories about their involvement in Brexit.
We have had Remainers make Jacob's arguments for him, now we can finally have the man himself.
Well it confirms that this is a deal I can live with, whilst it isn't what I was after, and I have huge concerns about Northern Ireland, if the Moggster ain't happy, then Mrs May has done good.
You have to admire our PM. She has been doing a masterly boiled frog operation on the Brexiteers. They are beginning to notice the rising temperature but not enough to actually leap out.
The next step up of heat will be the decision to stay in a/the customs union. Parliamentary numbers will force this on her and she will reluctantly agree. Sorry Liam. It's not lack of resolve. It's real politik. No alternative PM could do any better.
So as we approach a very soft BINO, MPs on both sides of the issue will question whether it worth it for so little? Perhaps the people should be consulted? Little by little, step by step.
Presumably you'll give good odds on us leaving the CU, then, given you're so sure it won't happen.
Let me know what....
Do you know if anyone is giving odds on that? Serious question.
I don't, but if you quote a price I might be interested.
I never make personal bets. It's the way to lose friends. But I'm very interested in this market with bookies or exchanges.
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
Belief in democracy now makes me a "numpty". Charming.
I can only assume that your desire to ride roughshod over the views of the majority in either your own personal interest or for what you perceive as "the greater good" makes you a fascist.
I don't desire to ride roughshod over the views of the majority. I defer to it.
That doesn't make me like a victory won through xenophobic lies any the more though, and self-deluding tosh about Britain not currently being a democracy does indeed mark you out as a numpty. You still haven't answered the point about asking others who don't believe in your mania to make sacrifices for a cause they don't subscribe to.
You're a very rude and unpleasant man and I don't feel inclined to respond to ad hominems.
I wouldn’t rise to it.
So you too are relaxed about asking others who bitterly oppose your mad hobbyhorse to make sacrifices so you can enjoy it?
If the people elect a Labour government, I won’t throw a tantrum when told to pay higher taxes, even though I’m opposed to them. That’s what living in a democratic nation state means.
A fair enough point. Always provided that the rules for elections are clear and fair, and nobody tries to get round them in order to get themselves a majority of seats in Parliament.
There is a problem here - looking backwards...... Looking forwards, there may be as well....
Some genuine old fashioned investigative journalism from C4 News tonight. More to come tomorrow apparently. Many questions for Cambridge Analytica and others no doubt.
What surprised me was how much Cambridge Analytica turns out to be an old-fashioned dirty tricks operation. The fact that they operate through an opaque haze of shell companies also explains some of the conflicting stories about their involvement in Brexit.
It’s a very confusing story but it seems to boil down to this:
A rogue political comms agency is suspected of using improperly obtained Facebook data to help swing the vote for Trump, and possibly Brexit too.
Certainly it seems to be the connection between Bannon (former VP) and Farage (former client, seemingly).
Belief in democracy now makes me a "numpty". Charming. I can only assume that your desire to ride roughshod over the views of the majority in either your own personal interest or for what you perceive as "the greater good" makes you a fascist.
I don't desire to ride roughshod over the views of the majority. I defer to it. That doesn't make me like a victory won through xenophobic lies any the more though, and self-deluding tosh about Britain not currently being a democracy does indeed mark you out as a numpty. You still haven't answered the point about asking others who don't believe in your mania to make sacrifices for a cause they don't subscribe to.
You're a very rude and unpleasant man and I don't feel inclined to respond to ad hominems.
I wouldn’t rise to it.
So you too are relaxed about asking others who bitterly oppose your mad hobbyhorse to make sacrifices so you can enjoy it?
If the people elect a Labour government, I won’t throw a tantrum when told to pay higher taxes, even though I’m opposed to them. That’s what living in a democratic nation state means. A fair enough point. Always provided that the rules for elections are clear and fair, and nobody tries to get round them in order to get themselves a majority of seats in Parliament. There is a problem here - looking backwards...... Looking forwards, there may be as well....
Yawn.
Yawn away, Mr Mortimer. It`s a free country.
But if we have rules governing elections and everybody respects them, then everybody will respect the result.
If on the other hand, one group of people find ways to get round the rules - all quite legally of course, because they have top notch lawyers to advise them how to do so - then the losers do not have to accept the result. The result is illegitimate (even though legally sound).
The problem is that you Tories think the rules do not apply to you - but what you are doing is the undermine the stability of the country. The EU Referendum did not respect the rules, the Conservative campaign in 2017 did not respect the rules, and the 2015 campaign did not respect the rules either.
The government since 2015 has been illegitimate - in my opinion - and I do not respect anything it says or does. Least of all when a lightweight like Boris Johnson turns up to tell us what is what.
There is more to life than money. As anybody who has ever left a crappy but highly paid job for a less stressful one can attest to.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws. That remainers still don't get this after going all-in on the economic argument two years ago beggars belief.
Oh I get that many (elderly retired) Leavers would rather see the economy crash than have to deal with foreigners.
It's a shame that Leavers have to drag Remain voters who don't share their values down with them.
I am a remain voter but now want to leave but frankly your constant reference to foreigners is not my view post Brexit when I hope we will welcome people from across the world to live and work and contribute to our economy, but importantly we will have control on unrestricted immigration
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
This is the key point. Your scenario is moot because the vast bulk of Leavers think Brexit will make the UK better off economically. They are in denial of reality but that is what they believe with every fibre of their being. Asking about sacrifices is pointless because they don't believe for a second there will be sacrifices.
Over a 20-30+ year horizon, that is very probably right.
There is more to life than money. As anybody who has ever left a crappy but highly paid job for a less stressful one can attest to.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws. That remainers still don't get this after going all-in on the economic argument two years ago beggars belief.
Oh I get that many (elderly retired) Leavers would rather see the economy crash than have to deal with foreigners.
It's a shame that Leavers have to drag Remain voters who don't share their values down with them.
I am a remain voter but now want to leave but frankly your constant reference to foreigners is not my view post Brexit when I hope we will welcome people from across the world to live and work and contribute to our economy, but importantly we will have control on unrestricted immigration
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
This is the key point. Your scenario is moot because the vast bulk of Leavers think Brexit will make the UK better off economically. They are in denial of reality but that is what they believe with every fibre of their being. Asking about sacrifices is pointless because they don't believe for a second there will be sacrifices.
Over a 20-30+ year horizon, that is very probably right.
The issue is the next 5-10 years.
How, over a 20-30+ year horizon can customs controls between the UK and the rest of Europe possibly lead to us being better off than we would otherwise be?
Belief in democracy now makes me a "numpty". Charming. I can only assume that your desire to ride roughshod over the views of the majority in either your own personal interest or for what you perceive as "the greater good" makes you a fascist.
You're a very rude and unpleasant man and I don't feel inclined to respond to ad hominems.
I wouldn’t rise to it.
So you too are relaxed about asking others who bitterly oppose your mad hobbyhorse to make sacrifices so you can enjoy it?
If the people elect a Labour government, I won’t throw a tantrum when told to pay higher taxes, even though I’m opposed to them. That’s what living in a democratic nation state means. A fair enough point. Always provided that the rules for elections are clear and fair, and nobody tries to get round them in order to get themselves a majority of seats in Parliament. There is a problem here - looking backwards...... Looking forwards, there may be as well....
Yawn.
Yawn away, Mr Mortimer. It`s a free country.
But if we have rules governing elections and everybody respects them, then everybody will respect the result.
If on the other hand, one group of people find ways to get round the rules - all quite legally of course, because they have top notch lawyers to advise them how to do so - then the losers do not have to accept the result. The result is illegitimate (even though legally sound).
The problem is that you Tories think the rules do not apply to you - but what you are doing is the undermine the stability of the country. The EU Referendum did not respect the rules, the Conservative campaign in 2017 did not respect the rules, and the 2015 campaign did not respect the rules either.
The government since 2015 has been illegitimate - in my opinion - and I do not respect anything it says or does. Least of all when a lightweight like Boris Johnson turns up to tell us what is what.
There is more to life than money. As anybody who has ever left a crappy but highly paid job for a less stressful one can attest to.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws. That remainers still don't get this after going all-in on the economic argument two years ago beggars belief.
Oh I get that many (elderly retired) Leavers would rather see the economy crash than have to deal with foreigners.
It's a shame that Leavers have to drag Remain voters who don't share their values down with them.
I am a remain voter but now want to leave but frankly your constant reference to foreigners is not my view post Brexit when I hope we will welcome people from across the world to live and work and contribute to our economy, but importantly we will have control on unrestricted immigration
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
This is the key point. Your scenario is moot because the vast bulk of Leavers think Brexit will make the UK better off economically. They are in denial of reality but that is what they believe with every fibre of their being. Asking about sacrifices is pointless because they don't believe for a second there will be sacrifices.
Over a 20-30+ year horizon, that is very probably right.
The issue is the next 5-10 years.
How, over a 20-30+ year horizon can customs controls between the UK and the rest of Europe possibly lead to us being better off than we would otherwise be?
It’s magic! But you have to close your eyes otherwise the trick won’t work, and the poor lady will have her legs lopped off for real.
There is more to life than money. As anybody who has ever left a crappy but highly paid job for a less stressful one can attest to.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws. That remainers still don't get this after going all-in on the economic argument two years ago beggars belief.
Oh I get that many (elderly retired) Leavers would rather see the economy crash than have to deal with foreigners.
It's a shame that Leavers have to drag Remain voters who don't share their values down with them.
I am a remain voter but now want to leave but frankly your constant reference to foreigners is not my view post Brexit when I hope we will welcome people from across the world to live and work and contribute to our economy, but importantly we will have control on unrestricted immigration
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
This is the key point. Your scenario is moot because the vast bulk of Leavers think Brexit will make the UK better off economically. They are in denial of reality but that is what they believe with every fibre of their being. Asking about sacrifices is pointless because they don't believe for a second there will be sacrifices.
Over a 20-30+ year horizon, that is very probably right.
The issue is the next 5-10 years.
How, over a 20-30+ year horizon can customs controls between the UK and the rest of Europe possibly lead to us being better off than we would otherwise be?
There wont be any. In that period international standards and rules will consolidate and free trade world wide will be the norm
Some genuine old fashioned investigative journalism from C4 News tonight. More to come tomorrow apparently. Many questions for Cambridge Analytica and others no doubt.
What surprised me was how much Cambridge Analytica turns out to be an old-fashioned dirty tricks operation. The fact that they operate through an opaque haze of shell companies also explains some of the conflicting stories about their involvement in Brexit.
The term ratfucking* as it relates to politics probably dates back to postwar California... as a practice, it is as old as politics. The means might change, but it remains what it is.
*Broadly accepted as a political term of art, these days.
There is more to life than money. As anybody who has ever left a crappy but highly paid job for a less stressful one can attest to.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws. That remainers still don't get this after going all-in on the economic argument two years ago beggars belief.
Oh I get that many (elderly retired) Leavers would rather see the economy crash than have to deal with foreigners.
It's a shame that Leavers have to drag Remain voters who don't share their values down with them.
I am a remain voter but now want to leave but frankly your constant reference to foreigners is not my view post Brexit when I hope we will welcome people from across the world to live and work and contribute to our economy, but importantly we will have control on unrestricted immigration
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
This is the key point. Your scenario is moot because the vast bulk of Leavers think Brexit will make the UK better off economically. They are in denial of reality but that is what they believe with every fibre of their being. Asking about sacrifices is pointless because they don't believe for a second there will be sacrifices.
Over a 20-30+ year horizon, that is very probably right.
The issue is the next 5-10 years.
How, over a 20-30+ year horizon can customs controls between the UK and the rest of Europe possibly lead to us being better off than we would otherwise be?
There wont be any. In that period international standards and rules will consolidate and free trade world wide will be the norm
In all fairness, the elderly and ill-educated should be taxed to pay for the costs of Brexit.
to the result like a two year old deprived of his ice cream, and spend my life creating on the internet about how howwid the howwid pwoles are, at a pitch which shatters wineglasses.
It was a joke, you berk. As for the rest of your mewling rant, I do not actually complain about the “howwid pwoles”. Just the horrid trolls on here.
"I don't like darkies." (Joke, only kidding, LOL, you berk). Happy with that?
I was not identifying you personally as the Prolefinder General.
Nope. I didn’t joke about race. Whereas, you just went there.
"Went there"? And the point of that post was, very precisely, that it wasn't a joke and wasn't capable of being a joke. i think you need to reassess the you/Leaver intelligence disparity.
No. I made a joke about the old being too slow to evade Brexit taxes. You seemed to take offence and then suggested it was akin to joking about darkies.
Sorry, Ishmael, I just speared your whale.
The rule against prejudice is a *general* rule. You make the common mistake of believing that there is a finite and enumerable list of "protected" minorities, and anyone not on the list is fair game.
In all fairness, the elderly and ill-educated should be taxed to pay for the costs of Brexit.
to the result like a two year old deprived of his ice cream, and spend my life creating on the internet about how howwid the howwid pwoles are, at a pitch which shatters wineglasses.
It was a joke, you berk. As for the rest of your mewling rant, I do not actually complain about the “howwid pwoles”. Just the horrid trolls on here.
"I don't like darkies." (Joke, only kidding, LOL, you berk). Happy with that?
I was not identifying you personally as the Prolefinder General.
Nope. I didn’t joke about race. Whereas, you just went there.
"Went there"? And the point of that post was, very precisely, that it wasn't a joke and wasn't capable of being a joke. i think you need to reassess the you/Leaver intelligence disparity.
No. I made a joke about the old being too slow to evade Brexit taxes. You seemed to take offence and then suggested it was akin to joking about darkies.
Sorry, Ishmael, I just speared your whale.
The rule against prejudice is a *general* rule. You make the common mistake of believing that there is a finite and enumerable list of "protected" minorities, and anyone not on the list is fair game.
There are certain protected characteristics under the UK Equality Act:
There is more to life than money. As anybody who has ever left a crappy but highly paid job for a less stressful one can attest to.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws. That remainers still don't get this after going all-in on the economic argument two years ago beggars belief.
Oh I get that many (elderly retired) Leavers would rather see the economy crash than have to deal with foreigners.
It's a shame that Leavers have to drag Remain voters who don't share their values down with them.
I am a remain voter but now want to leave but frankly your constant reference to foreigners is not my view post Brexit when I hope we will welcome people from across the world to live and work and contribute to our economy, but importantly we will have control on unrestricted immigration
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
This is the key point. Your scenario is moot because the vast bulk of Leavers think Brexit will make the UK better off economically. They are in denial of reality but that is what they believe with every fibre of their being. Asking about sacrifices is pointless because they don't believe for a second there will be sacrifices.
Over a 20-30+ year horizon, that is very probably right.
The issue is the next 5-10 years.
How, over a 20-30+ year horizon can customs controls between the UK and the rest of Europe possibly lead to us being better off than we would otherwise be?
There wont be any. In that period international standards and rules will consolidate and free trade world wide will be the norm
In all fairness, the elderly and ill-educated should be taxed to pay for the costs of Brexit.
to the result like a two year old deprived of his ice cream, and spend my life creating on the internet about how howwid the howwid pwoles are, at a pitch which shatters wineglasses.
It was a joke, you berk. As for the rest of your mewling rant, I do not actually complain about the “howwid pwoles”. Just the horrid trolls on here.
"I don't like darkies." (Joke, only kidding, LOL, you berk). Happy with that?
I was not identifying you personally as the Prolefinder General.
Nope. I didn’t joke about race. Whereas, you just went there.
"Went there"? And the point of that post was, very precisely, that it wasn't a joke and wasn't capable of being a joke. i think you need to reassess the you/Leaver intelligence disparity.
No. I made a joke about the old being too slow to evade Brexit taxes. You seemed to take offence and then suggested it was akin to joking about darkies.
Sorry, Ishmael, I just speared your whale.
The rule against prejudice is a *general* rule. You make the common mistake of believing that there is a finite and enumerable list of "protected" minorities, and anyone not on the list is fair game.
Oh give over, you pompous non-entity. No wonder Abraham preferred Isaac.
Belief in democracy now makes me a "numpty". Charming. I can only assume that your desire to ride roughshod over the views of the majority in either your own personal interest or for what you perceive as "the greater good" makes you a fascist.
I don't desire to ride roughshod over the views of the majority. I defer to it. That doesn't make me like a victory won through xenophobic lies any the more though, and self-deluding tosh about Britain not currently being a democracy does indeed mark you out as a numpty. You still haven't answered the point about asking others who don't believe in your mania to make sacrifices for a cause they don't subscribe to.
You're a very rude and unpleasant man and I don't feel inclined to respond to ad hominems.
I wouldn’t rise to it.
So you too are relaxed about asking others who bitterly oppose your mad hobbyhorse to make sacrifices so you can enjoy it?
If the people elect a Labour government, I won’t throw a tantrum when told to pay higher taxes, even though I’m opposed to them. That’s what living in a democratic nation state means. A fair enough point. Always provided that the rules for elections are clear and fair, and nobody tries to get round them in order to get themselves a majority of seats in Parliament. There is a problem here - looking backwards...... Looking forwards, there may be as well....
Yawn.
Yawn away, Mr Mortimer. It`s a free country.
But if we have rules governing elections and everybody respects them, then everybody will respect the result.
If on the other hand, one group of people find ways to get round the rules - all quite legally of course, because they have top notch lawyers to advise them how to do so - then the losers do not have to accept the result. The result is illegitimate (even though legally sound).
The problem is that you Tories think the rules do not apply to you - but what you are doing is the undermine the stability of the country. The EU Referendum did not respect the rules, the Conservative campaign in 2017 did not respect the rules, and the 2015 campaign did not respect the rules either.
The government since 2015 has been illegitimate - in my opinion - and I do not respect anything it says or does. Least of all when a lightweight like Boris Johnson turns up to tell us what is what.
In all fairness, the elderly and ill-educated should be taxed to pay for the costs of Brexit.
to the result like a two year old deprived of his ice cream, and spend my life creating on the internet about how howwid the howwid pwoles are, at a pitch which shatters wineglasses.
It was a joke, you berk. As for the rest of your mewling rant, I do not actually complain about the “howwid pwoles”. Just the horrid trolls on here.
"I don't like darkies." (Joke, only kidding, LOL, you berk). Happy with that?
I was not identifying you personally as the Prolefinder General.
Nope. I didn’t joke about race. Whereas, you just went there.
"Went there"? And the point of that post was, very precisely, that it wasn't a joke and wasn't capable of being a joke. i think you need to reassess the you/Leaver intelligence disparity.
No. I made a joke about the old being too slow to evade Brexit taxes. You seemed to take offence and then suggested it was akin to joking about darkies.
Sorry, Ishmael, I just speared your whale.
The rule against prejudice is a *general* rule. You make the common mistake of believing that there is a finite and enumerable list of "protected" minorities, and anyone not on the list is fair game.
Oh give over, you pompous non-entity. No wonder Abraham preferred Isaac.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws. That remainers still don't get this after going all-in on the economic argument two years ago beggars belief.
Oh I get that many (elderly retired) Leavers would rather see the economy crash than have to deal with foreigners.
It's a shame that Leavers have to drag Remain voters who don't share their values down with them.
I am a remain voter but now want to leave but frankly your constant reference to foreigners is not my view post Brexit when I hope we will welcome people from across the world to live and work and contribute to our economy, but importantly we will have control on unrestricted immigration
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
This is the key point. Your scenario is moot because the vast bulk of Leavers think Brexit will make the UK better off economically. They are in denial of reality but that is what they believe with every fibre of their being. Asking about sacrifices is pointless because they don't believe for a second there will be sacrifices.
Over a 20-30+ year horizon, that is very probably right.
The issue is the next 5-10 years.
How, over a 20-30+ year horizon can customs controls between the UK and the rest of Europe possibly lead to us being better off than we would otherwise be?
There wont be any. In that period international standards and rules will consolidate and free trade world wide will be the norm
Rural broadband benefits the young by enabling them to have a prosperous life in the area they grew up, rather than having to move to London with its insane property prices. Cancelling it would be retrogressive. The primary beneficiaries of fast broadband in the small rural town where I live are 30/40-something homeworkers, not the retired, and I strongly suspect they voted Remain to a man.
That aside, though, I find it hard to have sympathy with the "suck it up, that's democracy" line. FPTP, and the current attempt to make national governments even less representative of the popular vote by reducing the number of seats, never smack greatly of "democracy" to me. But I'll stop there otherwise TSE will be encouraged to start another AV thread.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws. That remainers still don't get this after going all-in on the economic argument two years ago beggars belief.
Oh I get that many (elderly retired) Leavers would rather see the economy crash than have to deal with foreigners.
It's a shame that Leavers have to drag Remain voters who don't share their values down with them.
I am a remain voter but now want to leave but frankly your constant reference to foreigners is not my view post Brexit when I hope we will welcome people from across the world to live and work and contribute to our economy, but importantly we will have control on unrestricted immigration
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
This is the key point. Your scenario is moot because the vast bulk of Leavers think Brexit will make the UK better off economically. They are in denial of reality but that is what they believe with every fibre of their being. Asking about sacrifices is pointless because they don't believe for a second there will be sacrifices.
Over a 20-30+ year horizon, that is very probably right.
The issue is the next 5-10 years.
How, over a 20-30+ year horizon can customs controls between the UK and the rest of Europe possibly lead to us being better off than we would otherwise be?
There wont be any. In that period international standards and rules will consolidate and free trade world wide will be the norm
Anyone who has watched Newsnight more than very occasionally knows that their graphics are amateurish and silly (but often quite amusing) on a regular basis, which has little or nothing to do with political bias, and a lot to do with budget constraints.
I fear he may be right. I get the impression Theresa is loathed in the Metrop. Rightly or wrongly, the feeling is she's too keen to court the easy bumpkin vote instead of making tough choices.
The view from the friendliest country to the UK in the EU:
Berlingske headline "Danish Business celebrates as Brexit actually delayed two years" - goes on to talk about an important agreement and finishes with
"Storbritannien igen bøjet af på flere vigtige mærkesager" - Once again the UK gives way on key issues
no doubt from here, this is good news for Denmark especially for the Danish fishing industry which is panicking about the CFP
UK coastal waters are returned on the 1st January 2021 - 18 months after Brexit
indeed but I think the Danes are still hoping the UK will somehow change its mind - and if not that the EU will put the Danish fishing fleet on a par with the Irish border, which they might do as basically the UK has shown it won't walk away so will do pretty much what it's told to.
Every remainer post is attacking the transistion deal that ends their argument of a disastrous no deal and WTO and ensures we have left by 1st January 2021
No it’s not you dipstick. Some of us are pointing out the futility of the whole exercise to get us back to a gnat’s bollock of where we started and wonder at a process that can leave us with less democracy than before.
Except of course it won't. No matter how much you might wish it to be the case.
Already has. We’re signing up to it. And we’ll sign up to a “full fettle Brexit” after that.
Only in your addled brain. Out in the real world it is an entirely different matter
Hehe. Put Tyndall down in the sell-out box.
Showing your ignorance yet again. I argued for a Norway Brexit on here long before we ever voted. I even wrote articles about it. I am very content with progress at the moment.
I know. And undoubtedly in those articles you disputed the idea of Norway as a fax democracy, citing various protections in EFTA.
Protections we ain’t getting, at least for 18 months.
What does 18 months matter? It is as dumb an argument as saying the fact we have to pay the equivalent of a couple of years contributions is a reason to cancel the whole thing and carry on paying those contributions forever.
Anyone who has watched Newsnight more than very occasionally knows that their graphics are amateurish and silly (but often quite amusing) on a regular basis, which has little or nothing to do with political bias, and a lot to do with budget constraints.
When I saw the way that picture had been changed, I thought it was a double tribute both to Mr Corbyn and to Che Guevara.
The demographics of London are far worse for the Tories than in the mid 90s, so it’s not unreasonable for them to score worse. Conversely, they will do better outside the M25.
The view from the friendliest country to the UK in the EU:
Berlingske headline "Danish Business celebrates as Brexit actually delayed two years" - goes on to talk about an important agreement and finishes with
"Storbritannien igen bøjet af på flere vigtige mærkesager" - Once again the UK gives way on key issues
no doubt from here, this is good news for Denmark especially for the Danish fishing industry which is panicking about the CFP
UK coastal waters are returned on the 1st January 2021 - 18 months after Brexit
indeed but I think the Danes are still hoping the UK will somehow change its mind - and if not that the EU will put the Danish fishing fleet on a par with the Irish border, which they might do as basically the UK has shown it won't walk away so will do pretty much what it's told to.
The detail is in the transition agreement which once signed closes off that hope
The view from the friendliest country to the UK in the EU:
Berlingske headline "Danish Business celebrates as Brexit actually delayed two years" - goes on to talk about an important agreement and finishes with
"Storbritannien igen bøjet af på flere vigtige mærkesager" - Once again the UK gives way on key issues
no doubt from here, this is good news for Denmark especially for the Danish fishing industry which is panicking about the CFP
UK coastal waters are returned on the 1st January 2021 - 18 months after Brexit
indeed but I think the Danes are still hoping the UK will somehow change its mind - and if not that the EU will put the Danish fishing fleet on a par with the Irish border, which they might do as basically the UK has shown it won't walk away so will do pretty much what it's told to.
The detail is in the transition agreement which once signed closes off that hope
How? If we didn't jump off the first cliff, why would we jump off the second?
There is more to life than money. As anybody who has ever left a crappy but highly paid job for a less stressful one can attest to.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and.
Oh I get that many (elderly retired) Leavers would rather see the economy crash than have to deal with foreigners.
It's a shame that Leavers have to drag Remain voters who don't share their values down with them.
I am a remain voter but now want to leave but frankly your constant reference to foreigners is not my view post Brexit when I hope we will welcome people from across the world to live and work and contribute to our economy, but importantly we will have control on unrestricted immigration
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
This is the key point. Your scenario is moot because the vast bulk of Leavers think Brexit will make the UK better off economically. They are in denial of reality but that is what they believe with every fibre of their being. Asking about sacrifices is pointless because they don't believe for a second there will be sacrifices.
Over a 20-30+ year horizon, that is very probably right.
The issue is the next 5-10 years.
How, over a 20-30+ year horizon can customs controls between the UK and the rest of Europe possibly lead to us being better off than we would otherwise be?
There wont be any. In that period international standards and rules will consolidate and free trade world wide will be the norm
So then why leave the EU?
The Country voted to leave
Good! So you admit the platform itself is worthless. Of course, you did vote Remain.
There is more to life than money. As anybody who has ever left a crappy but highly paid job for a less stressful one can attest to.
Time and time again remainers make the mistake of arguing that the economy is the only valid argument, when all the evidence points to most people having a more nuanced view. Many evidently consider it a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws. That remainers still don't get this after going all-in on the economic argument two years ago beggars belief.
Oh I get that many (elderly retired) Leavers would rather see the economy crash than have to deal with foreigners.
It's a shame that Leavers have to drag Remain voters who don't share their values down with them.
I am a remain voter but now want to leave but frankly your constant reference to foreigners is not my view post Brexit when I hope we will welcome people from across the world to live and work and contribute to our economy, but importantly we will have control on unrestricted immigration
Imagine a Remain supporter. He works in a job that is directly affected by Brexit. He has no interest in the chauvinist delusions displayed by so many Leave supporters. He loses his job. And then he reads on the internet that some numpty thinks that "it's a worthy trade off to have more control over our borders and a direct say in those who make our laws". His reaction would be unprintable.
It's all very well Leavers being prepared to make sacrifices for their mad hobbyhorse. But they should not be asking others to make them on their behalves.
This is the key point. Your scenario is moot because the vast bulk of Leavers think Brexit will make the UK better off economically. They are in denial of reality but that is what they believe with every fibre of their being. Asking about sacrifices is pointless because they don't believe for a second there will be sacrifices.
Over a 20-30+ year horizon, that is very probably right.
The issue is the next 5-10 years.
How, over a 20-30+ year horizon can customs controls between the UK and the rest of Europe possibly lead to us being better off than we would otherwise be?
I suspect I’m wasting my breath but the future of the world economy is in Asia and Africa, not Europe.
Even today 94% of the world population and 80% of its economy is non-EU. We are trading a bit of economic integration with our immediate neighbours for long-term regulatory flexibility, which I think will pay dividends.
The demographics of London are far worse for the Tories than in the mid 90s, so it’s not unreasonable for them to score worse. Conversely, they will do better outside the M25.
Out of interest, what polling is there on that?
Anecdata suggests things are not looking too bright for the Tories in the upcoming locals round here, but I'd be interested in real numbers.
WIki says 2014 result was Lab 43, Con 30 whereas UKPollingReport says this:
"More interesting, given we are only a few months away from the London council elections in May, are local government voting intentions of CON 28%(+2), LAB 54%(+17), LDEM 11%(+1), GRN 4%(-6) UKIP 2%(-10). Changes are since the last London local elections which were back in 2014, on the same day as the European Parliament elections."
Every remainer post is attacking the transistion deal that ends their argument of a disastrous no deal and WTO and ensures we have left by 1st January 2021
No it’s not you dipstick. Some of us are pointing out the futility of the whole exercise to get us back to a gnat’s bollock of where we started and wonder at a process that can leave us with less democracy than before.
Except of course it won't. No matter how much you might wish it to be the case.
Already has. We’re signing up to it. And we’ll sign up to a “full fettle Brexit” after that.
Only in your addled brain. Out in the real world it is an entirely different matter
Hehe. Put Tyndall down in the sell-out box.
Showing your ignorance yet again. I argued for a Norway Brexit on here long before we ever voted. I even wrote articles about it. I am very content with progress at the moment.
I know. And undoubtedly in those articles you disputed the idea of Norway as a fax democracy, citing various protections in EFTA.
Protections we ain’t getting, at least for 18 months.
What does 18 months matter? It is as dumb an argument as saying the fact we have to pay the equivalent of a couple of years contributions is a reason to cancel the whole thing and carry on paying those contributions forever.
Ok. Just so we know. You’re OK with a little bit of vassal-status.
Comments
Sovereignty is important to me. The only semi good reason for leaving the EU is to have more say over our own affairs. But here's the paradox. A vote to leave the EU in the name of sovereignty actually delivers less of it. Moreover Remainers are actually more interested in making choices and the exercise of sovereignty than Leavers, who mostly are mostly attracted by the IDEA of sovereignty and have little interest in making hard choices. The Leaver lack of interest in making choices probably will see the compromised Brexit go ahead, while Remainers will take a BINO in preference to a car crash.
luxury goods aren't for everybody
https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2018/03/daniel-hannan-brexit-will-be-a-success-but-swivel-eyed-remainers-are-making-the-process-more-costly-than-it-needs-to-be.html
Costs awarded against UKIP today, to be paid within 14 days: £175,000
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/722391453599723520
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/722385618857304065
Secondly, we live in a representative democracy and, even better, for some glorious months leading up to June 2016, a direct democracy. You get results in democracies by persuading people about stuff, and you do that by going out on the street and knocking on doors, if you want to claim afterwards that the outcome was of life or death importance to you.. You and the other remoaners seem to subscribe to what has been called the Wykehamist's Fallacy, which is the belief that your view should prevail because you are cleverer than everyone else, quite independently of whether you do anything at all beyond sitting and being clever. Leave won because you are a fat, lazy horp - and that is something I tell myself, as well as you, because I am in the same boat as you are. What I don't do is react to the result like a two year old deprived of his ice cream, and spend my life creating on the internet about how howwid the howwid pwoles are, at a pitch which shatters wineglasses.
the UK economy Is still there
unlike George Osborne
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/971735849774862336
I'm seeing George next month, I'll pass on your regards.
The next step up of heat will be the decision to stay in a/the customs union. Parliamentary numbers will force this on her and she will reluctantly agree. Sorry Liam. It's not lack of resolve. It's real politik. No alternative PM could do any better.
So as we approach a very soft BINO, MPs on both sides of the issue will question whether it worth it for so little? Perhaps the people should be consulted? Little by little, step by step.
Let me know what....
As for the rest of your mewling rant, I do not actually complain about the “howwid pwoles”. Just the horrid trolls on here.
However, the one problem with this argument is that if we end up in this scenario and the voters aren't happy with it, then it is perfectly possible that they will vote in a hard brexit party committed to taking us out despite the economic cost. On topic, the poll shows 50% of Con voters may well go this way.
Of course the other outcome is that people look at Brexit and realise it's BINO or economic catastrophe and decide to rejoin. I'm happy with either outcome, so long as it has been arrived at democratically. But I do feel that BINO/"all the rules, none of the say" Brexit is just kicking the can down the road and sooner or later hard choices will have to be made, as you say.
https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
I guess we will soon find out where the rest of their vote is going.
I was not identifying you personally as the Prolefinder General.
A fair enough point. Always provided that the rules for elections are clear and fair, and nobody tries to get round them in order to get themselves a majority of seats in Parliament.
There is a problem here - looking backwards...... Looking forwards, there may be as well....
Many questions for Cambridge Analytica and others no doubt.
Sorry, Ishmael, I just speared your whale.
A rogue political comms agency is suspected of using improperly obtained Facebook data to help swing the vote for Trump, and possibly Brexit too.
Certainly it seems to be the connection between Bannon (former VP) and Farage (former client, seemingly).
Con 40%
Lib 30%
NDP 19%
Green 6%
BQ 4%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_43rd_Canadian_federal_election#Pre-campaign_period
Both Federal Court and Supreme Court have today thrown out GOP appeal.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/state/pennsylvania-congressional-map-federal-lawsuit-dismissed-gerrymandering-20180319.html
http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-nws-district-court-redistricting-map-20180319-story.html
But if we have rules governing elections and everybody respects them, then everybody will respect the result.
If on the other hand, one group of people find ways to get round the rules - all quite legally of course, because they have top notch lawyers to advise them how to do so - then the losers do not have to accept the result. The result is illegitimate (even though legally sound).
The problem is that you Tories think the rules do not apply to you - but what you are doing is the undermine the stability of the country. The EU Referendum did not respect the rules, the Conservative campaign in 2017 did not respect the rules, and the 2015 campaign did not respect the rules either.
The government since 2015 has been illegitimate - in my opinion - and I do not respect anything it says or does. Least of all when a lightweight like Boris Johnson turns up to tell us what is what.
https://twitter.com/andywigmore/status/975819183597539330
The issue is the next 5-10 years.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/07/lib-dems-fined-20000-for-undeclared-election-spending
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/19/liberal-democrats-fined-18000-breaching-campaign-finance-rules/
Might be worth leaving that glass house before you throw stones.
Or, just find something more interesting to say?
But you have to close your eyes otherwise the trick won’t work, and the poor lady will have her legs lopped off for real.
*Broadly accepted as a political term of art, these days.
One presumes there are a lot of hard drives to melt.
https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/hr/equality/focus/equalityact/protected
Both age and ethnicity included though.
No wonder Abraham preferred Isaac.
That aside, though, I find it hard to have sympathy with the "suck it up, that's democracy" line. FPTP, and the current attempt to make national governments even less representative of the popular vote by reducing the number of seats, never smack greatly of "democracy" to me. But I'll stop there otherwise TSE will be encouraged to start another AV thread.
Berlingske headline "Danish Business celebrates as Brexit actually delayed two years" - goes on to talk about an important agreement and finishes with
"Storbritannien igen bøjet af på flere vigtige mærkesager" - Once again the UK gives way on key issues
no doubt from here, this is good news for Denmark especially for the Danish fishing industry which is panicking about the CFP
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43463496
Anyone who has watched Newsnight more than very occasionally knows that their graphics are amateurish and silly (but often quite amusing) on a regular basis, which has little or nothing to do with political bias, and a lot to do with budget constraints.
The demographics of London are far worse for the Tories than in the mid 90s, so it’s not unreasonable for them to score worse. Conversely, they will do better outside the M25.
Even today 94% of the world population and 80% of its economy is non-EU. We are trading a bit of economic integration with our immediate neighbours for long-term regulatory flexibility, which I think will pay dividends.
Anecdata suggests things are not looking too bright for the Tories in the upcoming locals round here, but I'd be interested in real numbers.
"More interesting, given we are only a few months away from the London council elections in May, are local government voting intentions of CON 28%(+2), LAB 54%(+17), LDEM 11%(+1), GRN 4%(-6) UKIP 2%(-10). Changes are since the last London local elections which were back in 2014, on the same day as the European Parliament elections."
Which is very different changes.