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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This week’s PB/Polling Matters podcast

SystemSystem Posts: 6,199
edited April 11 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This week’s PB/Polling Matters podcast

Corbyn’s declining poll ratings, economic trust and who would vote for a new party anyway?

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,698
    First?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,698
    On topic, David Milliband????? nah
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,698
    Kuwait Airways suspends flights to Beirut
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,147
    edited April 11
    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 11,416
    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    Maybe its all a set-up so that Assad can be removed thus showing Trump to be strong and for his replacement to be more to Russia's liking.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 22,433
    Floater said:

    Kuwait Airways suspends flights to Beirut

    Are other airlines continuing to fly in that area?
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,147

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    Maybe its all a set-up so that Assad can be removed thus showing Trump to be strong and for his replacement to be more to Russia's liking.
    Its probably an avoid a clash conversation. The reports suggest the Russians have asked the Americans where they are thinking of hitting so they can bug out. I did mention in previous thread that there could be holding to let Russians get offside. Whether the US will provide this detail is hard to say.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,698
    AndyJS said:

    Floater said:

    Kuwait Airways suspends flights to Beirut

    Are other airlines continuing to fly in that area?
    That's the only one I have heard of.

  • MTimT2MTimT2 Posts: 47
    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,147
    edited April 11
    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 22,433
    “We would urge members of the public to respect the wishes of those who choose to place flowers and other tributes in the area."

    http://news.met.police.uk/news/statement-regarding-floral-tributes-in-hither-green-302509

  • MTimT2MTimT2 Posts: 47
    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Thanks
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 8,828
    AndyJS said:

    “We would urge members of the public to respect the wishes of those who choose to place flowers and other tributes in the area."

    http://news.met.police.uk/news/statement-regarding-floral-tributes-in-hither-green-302509

    The Met could save some money by sacking that twat.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,594
    AndyJS said:

    Floater said:

    Kuwait Airways suspends flights to Beirut

    Are other airlines continuing to fly in that area?
    There’s a handful of flights still going intoto Damascus, but everyone else is staying well away from the area.
    https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airports/dam
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532
    AndyJS said:

    “We would urge members of the public to respect the wishes of those who choose to place flowers and other tributes in the area."

    http://news.met.police.uk/news/statement-regarding-floral-tributes-in-hither-green-302509

    As far as the Met is concerned, they’ll start by applying poundshop sociology to the criminal, not the victim, and property owners are always guilty until proven innocent.

    I really hate the Met.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,617

    AndyJS said:

    “We would urge members of the public to respect the wishes of those who choose to place flowers and other tributes in the area."

    http://news.met.police.uk/news/statement-regarding-floral-tributes-in-hither-green-302509

    As far as the Met is concerned, they’ll start by applying poundshop sociology to the criminal, not the victim, and property owners are always guilty until proven innocent.

    I really hate the Met.
    It is amusing to reflect that if they applied the logic they have shown in recent weeks to their own officers, Cressida Dick would have had to be arrested.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,594
    tlg86 said:

    AndyJS said:

    “We would urge members of the public to respect the wishes of those who choose to place flowers and other tributes in the area."

    http://news.met.police.uk/news/statement-regarding-floral-tributes-in-hither-green-302509

    The Met could save some money by sacking that twat.
    Clearly still more worried about offending certain “communities” than keeping order on the streets of London.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 598
    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 690
    edited April 12
    daodao said:

    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,617

    daodao said:

    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.

    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
    I'm just intrigued to learn that a government that took power in a military coup in 1963 and has never won an election in accordance with the the Syrian constitution - even the one they themselves produced - is 'legitimate.'
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 598

    daodao said:

    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
    If there is definitive evidence about the alleged chemical attacks and their perpetrators, there is no reason why it cannot be put in the public domain - it is not likely to need to be kept secret from a military perspective.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,067
    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
    If there is definitive evidence about the alleged chemical attacks and their perpetrators, there is no reason why it cannot be put in the public domain - it is not likely to need to be kept secret from a military perspective.
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,594

    ttps://twitter.com/Usherwood/status/984314966609223680

  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,975
    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    'fall' - do you mean Autumn?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,280
    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
    If there is definitive evidence about the alleged chemical attacks and their perpetrators, there is no reason why it cannot be put in the public domain - it is not likely to need to be kept secret from a military perspective.
    There is also the issue of protecting sources and means; we may not want the Russians (and others) to know what we know, as it might hurt our capability of getting such knowledge in the future.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,720
    Good morning, everyone.

    Disappointing to see such bullshit from the police. But not surprised.

    F1: unfortunately, the Shanghai weather forecast has improved. Alas. Still, had it gone the other way things would be nice (but that's why I indicated very small stakes for the Williams/Saubers to top P1 bets).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,280
    daodao said:

    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.

    "There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government"

    That depends if you want to encourage the spread of the use of chemical (and probably biological) weapons in war and against civilian populations. These are currently banned by various conventions and treaties.

    If you want to protect the treaties we have, how would you deal with the Syrian government's use of such weapons?
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 598

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
    If there is definitive evidence about the alleged chemical attacks and their perpetrators, there is no reason why it cannot be put in the public domain - it is not likely to need to be kept secret from a military perspective.
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
    Some of the organisations quoted in this report, e.g. the White Helmets, are partisan and can't necessarily be relied on to be objective.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,594

    Good morning, everyone.

    Disappointing to see such bullshit from the police. But not surprised.

    F1: unfortunately, the Shanghai weather forecast has improved. Alas. Still, had it gone the other way things would be nice (but that's why I indicated very small stakes for the Williams/Saubers to top P1 bets).

    Hopefully the weather will be good enough for there to be a P1 and P2 this year - unlike last year when they were both abandoned due to the Shanghai smog.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,364

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
    If there is definitive evidence about the alleged chemical attacks and their perpetrators, there is no reason why it cannot be put in the public domain - it is not likely to need to be kept secret from a military perspective.
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
    Who are ‘bellingcat’ and who funds them? Not taking sides, but this is the first time I’ve heard of them.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,981
    Tweet rumours that Nissan will shut down Sunderland plant after Brexit. I've no idea if they are true. But it's quite remarkable that we have got this far without matters like this being settled one way or the other.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,720
    Mr. Sandpit, it was heavy rain/thunderstorms that prompted me enormo-odds/tiny stakes suggestion (with boost, could get 1001 for certain drivers to be fastest).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532
    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
    If there is definitive evidence about the alleged chemical attacks and their perpetrators, there is no reason why it cannot be put in the public domain - it is not likely to need to be kept secret from a military perspective.
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
    Some of the organisations quoted in this report, e.g. the White Helmets, are partisan and can't necessarily be relied on to be objective.
    Good morning, Moscow.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,067
    edited April 12

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
    If there is definitive evidence about the alleged chemical attacks and their perpetrators, there is no reason why it cannot be put in the public domain - it is not likely to need to be kept secret from a military perspective.
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
    Who are ‘bellingcat’ and who funds them? Not taking sides, but this is the first time I’ve heard of them.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellingcat

    I became aware of them when they deconstructed the parade of Russian lies over MH17
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,617

    Tweet rumours that Nissan will shut down Sunderland plant after Brexit. I've no idea if they are true. But it's quite remarkable that we have got this far without matters like this being settled one way or the other.

    Nissan along with Honda had a meeting with Theresa May last month, and neither side were very forthcoming about what was discussed.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532
    The bigger message there is the EU has now given up on stopping Brexit, which they’ve reluctantly accepted.

    They are now bargaining on EEA-EFTA.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,067
    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
    If there is definitive evidence about the alleged chemical attacks and their perpetrators, there is no reason why it cannot be put in the public domain - it is not likely to need to be kept secret from a military perspective.
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
    Some of the organisations quoted in this report, e.g. the White Helmets, are partisan and can't necessarily be relied on to be objective.
    Have you seen the videos?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,280
    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
    If there is definitive evidence about the alleged chemical attacks and their perpetrators, there is no reason why it cannot be put in the public domain - it is not likely to need to be kept secret from a military perspective.
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
    Some of the organisations quoted in this report, e.g. the White Helmets, are partisan and can't necessarily be relied on to be objective.
    Which is why you collect information from as many sources as possible, as Bellingcat does.

    His work on the Russian lies over MH17 was excellent, and adds extra depth to the official Dutch reports.

    The alternative is to believe the Russians, as you evidently do - despite there myriad of lies over recent events. See MH17.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 598

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
    If there is definitive evidence about the alleged chemical attacks and their perpetrators, there is no reason why it cannot be put in the public domain - it is not likely to need to be kept secret from a military perspective.
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
    Some of the organisations quoted in this report, e.g. the White Helmets, are partisan and can't necessarily be relied on to be objective.
    Good morning, Moscow.
    You might wish to read Peter Hitchens' recent blogs.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108
    daodao said:

    Some of the organisations quoted in this report, e.g. the White Helmets, are partisan and can't necessarily be relied on to be objective.

    Whereas you definitely can't be relied upon to be objective
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,383
    What is it about becoming British Prime Minister that turns a rational human beings into Dr Strangelove?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    AndyJS said:

    “We would urge members of the public to respect the wishes of those who choose to place flowers and other tributes in the area."

    http://news.met.police.uk/news/statement-regarding-floral-tributes-in-hither-green-302509

    The Met could save some money by sacking that twat.
    Clearly still more worried about offending certain “communities” than keeping order on the streets of London.
    Thieving pikeys ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,711
    edited April 12
    I love the 'there's no definitive evidence' crowd as it's such an obvious smokescreen. There's never enough evidence to satisfy, it's never definitive enough, and it always always only truly applies to the other side, the same rigour not applied to their own assertions, with the clear aim that if you cannot prove sonething 100%, that must mean all scenarios are equally plausible, right?

    Logic!

    I don't even think there's any point to us getting further involved, and the only britosh Syrian of my acquaintance, who has done a lot of work helping refugees from his homeland, is generally of the view that Assad is the best of a lot of terrible options, but the stock dismissiveness presented as objectivity is so laughably blatant. Sorry daodao.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108
    So he was "not trained in how to use force", huh? And is now suing his former employers, huh?

    How about the company might have had a reasonable expectation you would know not to drag 69 year old guys off planes? Because anybody that would do that would have to be dumb as a brick.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43734466
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,617
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    AndyJS said:

    “We would urge members of the public to respect the wishes of those who choose to place flowers and other tributes in the area."

    http://news.met.police.uk/news/statement-regarding-floral-tributes-in-hither-green-302509

    The Met could save some money by sacking that twat.
    Clearly still more worried about offending certain “communities” than keeping order on the streets of London.
    Thieving pikeys ?
    See comments by multiple posters to tlg86 last night.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,383
    edited April 12

    daodao said:

    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.

    "There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government"

    That depends if you want to encourage the spread of the use of chemical (and probably biological) weapons in war and against civilian populations. These are currently banned by various conventions and treaties.

    If you want to protect the treaties we have, how would you deal with the Syrian government's use of such weapons?
    I struggle to understand the pecking order of an American bomb that can decimate an area a mile square which they have recently used and a chemical weapon. The idea that the Americans with their array of weapons should pontificate to the Syrian government who are engaged in a brutal civil war what weapons they should use is perverse.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,617
    Roger said:

    What is it about becoming British Prime Minister that turns a rational human beings into Dr Strangelove?

    Name three rational human beings who have been Prime Minister.

    Like Catch-22, you need the finest, sharpest minds, but only insane people actually want to do it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    AndyJS said:

    “We would urge members of the public to respect the wishes of those who choose to place flowers and other tributes in the area."

    http://news.met.police.uk/news/statement-regarding-floral-tributes-in-hither-green-302509

    The Met could save some money by sacking that twat.
    Clearly still more worried about offending certain “communities” than keeping order on the streets of London.
    Thieving pikeys ?
    The police have to do all they can to preserve the thieving community.

    Or they'd be out of a job....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,617
    edited April 12

    So he was "not trained in how to use force", huh? And is now suing his former employers, huh?

    How about the company might have had a reasonable expectation you would know not to drag 69 year old guys off planes? Because anybody that would do that would have to be dumb as a brick.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43734466

    My understanding is he was ordered to remove the passenger, by force if necessary. I am however astounded he wasn't trained in using it, if true. Surely he should have been trained how to remove drunk or abusive or violent passengers?

    The epochal cock-up here was not the guard's, if we're honest, it's the airline's. (1) they should not have overbooked (2) they should have made that determination at check in not after boarding (3) when nobody accepted their initial offer they should have increased it (4) they should have investigated other routes for passengers or indeed crew and (5) they should never, ever in a million years have removed a lawfully paid, booked and boarded passenger who was not behaving aggressively or inappropriately by force.

    It was an epochal, monumental and entirely avoidable clusterfuck, and they were very, very lucky it was settled out of court.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,383
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    What is it about becoming British Prime Minister that turns a rational human beings into Dr Strangelove?

    Name three rational human beings who have been Prime Minister.

    Like Catch-22, you need the finest, sharpest minds, but only insane people actually want to do it.
    I wondered early on whether your user name was 'Yossarian' in Welsh
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,280
    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.

    "There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government"

    That depends if you want to encourage the spread of the use of chemical (and probably biological) weapons in war and against civilian populations. These are currently banned by various conventions and treaties.

    If you want to protect the treaties we have, how would you deal with the Syrian government's use of such weapons?
    I struggle to understand the pecking order of an American bomb that can decimate an area a mile square which they have recently used and a chemical weapon. The idea that the Americans with their array of weapons should pontificate to the Syrian government who are engaged in a brutal civil war what weapons they should use is perverse.
    There are differences between the two, and especially their usage.

    But the important point is that chemical and biological weapons are banned by long-standing treaties that have mostly been successful over decades. If you want to progress to ban other weapons - such as the fuel-air bombs that the Russians and (I think) Chinese also have, or nuclear weapons, or drones, then treaties are important.

    Basically: if you want nuclear disarmament, then it will have to be done on the back of treaties that all sides trust. You won't get that if existing and mostly-working treaties are seen to have no teeth.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,148
    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108
    edited April 12

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    The alternative point of view is that these people are not grieving. They are a criminal clan, sending a message to the pensioner and his wife with dementia that "we know where you live...."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,617
    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    What is it about becoming British Prime Minister that turns a rational human beings into Dr Strangelove?

    Name three rational human beings who have been Prime Minister.

    Like Catch-22, you need the finest, sharpest minds, but only insane people actually want to do it.
    I wondered early on whether your user name was 'Yossarian' in Welsh
    That would be 'Iosarien!'

    Although the character my username translates to is always looking to get away from it all...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,750

    The bigger message there is the EU has now given up on stopping Brexit, which they’ve reluctantly accepted.

    They are now bargaining on EEA-EFTA.
    Which unless they make concessions on free movement won't be happening
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,383
    If Mrs May becomes Trump's poodle I would hope the protests will match those of the Iraq demonstrations. There are plenty of similarities but In many ways this would be worse. Blair at least got the approval of parliament (albeit by lying) whereas it seems Mrs May isn't going to bother.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108
    edited April 12
    ydoethur said:

    So he was "not trained in how to use force", huh? And is now suing his former employers, huh?

    How about the company might have had a reasonable expectation you would know not to drag 69 year old guys off planes? Because anybody that would do that would have to be dumb as a brick.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43734466

    My understanding is he was ordered to remove the passenger, by force if necessary. I am however astounded he wasn't trained in using it, if true. Surely he should have been trained how to remove drunk or abusive or violent passengers?

    The epochal cock-up here was not the guard's, if we're honest, it's the airline's. (1) they should not have overbooked (2) they should have made that determination at check in not after boarding (3) when nobody accepted their initial offer they should have increased it (4) they should have investigated other routes for passengers or indeed crew and (5) they should never, ever in a million years have removed a lawfully paid, booked and boarded passenger who was not behaving aggressively or inappropriately by force.

    It was an epochal, monumental and entirely avoidable clusterfuck, and they were very, very lucky it was settled out of court.
    One assumes they were not lucky it was settled out of court - that was the function of A Very Large Cheque....

    Agreed the company systems that allowed the overbooking were very largely to blame. But all the guy needed to do was get on the phone to his boss and say "I have a situation here....that I'm not trained to handle."
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,865

    So he was "not trained in how to use force", huh? And is now suing his former employers, huh?

    How about the company might have had a reasonable expectation you would know not to drag 69 year old guys off planes? Because anybody that would do that would have to be dumb as a brick.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43734466

    In a letter to United Airlines staff, CEO Oscar Munoz said he was upset to see and hear about what happened but that he supported his employees.

    “The situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago aviation security officers to help,” Munoz wrote in the letter obtained by CNBC and other news outlets.

    “Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.”

    Munoz added that when crew members first approached the passenger to tell him to leave, he “raised his voice and refused to comply”, and each time they asked “he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent”.

    He said crew members “were left with no choice but to call Chicago aviation security officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight”, and that at one point the passenger “continued to resist – running back on to the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials”.


    But the employee was sacked anyway. Sounds like he has a case.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,067

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    The alternative point of view is that these people are not grieving. They are a criminal clan, sending a message to the pensioner and his wife with dementia that "we know where you live...."
    By creating the memorial opposite the pensioner's house, not where the burglar died....
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,148

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    The alternative point of view is that these people are not grieving. They are a criminal clan, sending a message to the pensioner and his wife with dementia that "we know where you live...."
    That alternative point of view presupposes that these people, who have just lost someone close to them, are inhumans with no feelings or who are to be allowed no feelings. So it can safely be discounted as something unfit for any decent person to contemplate.

    I doubt the pensioner and his wife will feel safe anyway. That is a separate problem. Interflora is not the most effective means of intimidation. If something less floral is going on, obviously that needs to be dealt with.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,067
    Not often I agree with Chris Bryant (who I also find pompous & irritating), but on this, I do:

  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 2,334

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,617

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    I would find that a more convincing point of view if it wasn't for the fact that Lee Rigby's flowers were removed 'for fear of causing offence.'

    He was murdered almost at random in broad daylight in a street as a political statement. Whatever his background, Vincent was a hardened career criminal with a string of convictions behind him, who was killed while committing yet another violent and illegal act and whose family are now making threats against the person who killed him. The flowers seem to be deliberately provocative and indeed are causing considerable offence.

    I think there are ample reasons to remove those flowers under the public order act and ban anyone from the family from entering that neighbourhood. But the police are not doing it. They really have not covered themselves in glory over this case.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,148

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    The alternative point of view is that these people are not grieving. They are a criminal clan, sending a message to the pensioner and his wife with dementia that "we know where you live...."
    By creating the memorial opposite the pensioner's house, not where the burglar died....
    That’s true of many of those white bicycles.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108
    HYUFD said:

    The bigger message there is the EU has now given up on stopping Brexit, which they’ve reluctantly accepted.

    They are now bargaining on EEA-EFTA.
    Which unless they make concessions on free movement won't be happening
    If they make concessions, there will be a sizeable queue outside Junckers' office demanding "me too!" And the rest might just be asking "so why the hell didn't we give those to Cameron in 2016 - and keep the UK in the EU?"
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,148
    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    It’s called freedom of expression. Last week it was being invoked in favour of Nazi-saluting dogs.

    Do I regard this as appropriate? No. But that shouldn’t be my judgement call. Taste or offence should not be the determining consideration.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    The alternative point of view is that these people are not grieving. They are a criminal clan, sending a message to the pensioner and his wife with dementia that "we know where you live...."
    That alternative point of view presupposes that these people, who have just lost someone close to them, are inhumans with no feelings or who are to be allowed no feelings. So it can safely be discounted as something unfit for any decent person to contemplate.

    I doubt the pensioner and his wife will feel safe anyway. That is a separate problem. Interflora is not the most effective means of intimidation. If something less floral is going on, obviously that needs to be dealt with.
    If Interflora sent you a wreath with R-I-P on it - might you start wondering who on pb.com you had REALLY pissed off?

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 14,584
    I not a great supporter of conservativehome but this is a very good article. I hope she has the wisdom to take the right choice and restrict action to degrading Assad's chemical weapon ability only as stated by Macron.

    Trump is an idiot but that does not exempt us from acting in unity with our allies.

    Report from Russia on Sky this am that the Russians and the US are making space for each other to prevent a wider conflict
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,280

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    The alternative point of view is that these people are not grieving. They are a criminal clan, sending a message to the pensioner and his wife with dementia that "we know where you live...."
    Some may be doing that, whilst some may genuinely be grieving. Not allowing the latter because of the former seems to be rather odd. If threats are being made, investigate and prosecute.

    I doubt many of the people who laid carpets of flowers outside Kensington Palace after Princess Di's death were genuinely grieving either. And it's not as though she died there.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,617

    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    It’s called freedom of expression. Last week it was being invoked in favour of Nazi-saluting dogs.

    Do I regard this as appropriate? No. But that shouldn’t be my judgement call. Taste or offence should not be the determining consideration.
    Eh? I missed that one!

    On your substantive point taste or offence may not be, but don't you (as a lawyer) think public order may have a role to play?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,148
    ydoethur said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    It’s called freedom of expression. Last week it was being invoked in favour of Nazi-saluting dogs.

    Do I regard this as appropriate? No. But that shouldn’t be my judgement call. Taste or offence should not be the determining consideration.
    Eh? I missed that one!

    On your substantive point taste or offence may not be, but don't you (as a lawyer) think public order may have a role to play?
    It seems to have given the police an excellent reason to post a 24 hour watch outside the pensioner’s house indefinitely. It may well be aiding not hindering public order.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,617

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    The alternative point of view is that these people are not grieving. They are a criminal clan, sending a message to the pensioner and his wife with dementia that "we know where you live...."
    Some may be doing that, whilst some may genuinely be grieving. Not allowing the latter because of the former seems to be rather odd. If threats are being made, investigate and prosecute.

    I doubt many of the people who laid carpets of flowers outside Kensington Palace after Princess Di's death were genuinely grieving either. And it's not as though she died there.
    There was some unfortunate humour in the spot where she actually died. A statement on behalf of Charles as he went to pick up the body noted he would meet the staff who had treated her, and included the rather ambiguous phrase, 'he would thank them for all they had done.'
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,280
    ydoethur said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    I would find that a more convincing point of view if it wasn't for the fact that Lee Rigby's flowers were removed 'for fear of causing offence.'

    He was murdered almost at random in broad daylight in a street as a political statement. Whatever his background, Vincent was a hardened career criminal with a string of convictions behind him, who was killed while committing yet another violent and illegal act and whose family are now making threats against the person who killed him. The flowers seem to be deliberately provocative and indeed are causing considerable offence.

    I think there are ample reasons to remove those flowers under the public order act and ban anyone from the family from entering that neighbourhood. But the police are not doing it. They really have not covered themselves in glory over this case.
    The sensible thing would be for the local authority, police and the family of the dead scumman to get together and to decide on a location nearby where tributes can be left for a set period, without inconveniencing people in the immediate vicinity of the attack.

    But that depends on everyone being adult ...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,720
    Mr. Meeks, a video on Youtube has to be sought out to be seen. If somebody's putting up a tribute to a career criminal outside your house, it's rather harder to ignore.

    Also, not a great comparison as the chap you refer to was arrested, prosecuted and has been convicted (awaiting sentence) of a crime for telling a joke some found offensive.

    There's also, as others have mentioned, the Lee Rigby tribute comparison. A serial criminal is being afforded protection that was not forthcoming for a victim of terrorism who served in the armed forces.

    Are you playing Devil's advocate?
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 2,334

    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    It’s called freedom of expression. Last week it was being invoked in favour of Nazi-saluting dogs.

    Do I regard this as appropriate? No. But that shouldn’t be my judgement call. Taste or offence should not be the determining consideration.
    Freedom of expression doesn’t give you the right to appropriate another person’s or public property, last time I checked.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,750
    edited April 12
    Roger said:

    If Mrs May becomes Trump's poodle I would hope the protests will match those of the Iraq demonstrations. There are plenty of similarities but In many ways this would be worse. Blair at least got the approval of parliament (albeit by lying) whereas it seems Mrs May isn't going to bother.

    Oh for goodness sake all Trump is going to do is lob a few missiles at Assad after he massacred 70 civilians, we may not even do anything ourselves, it will be more Bill Clinton than the thousands of ground troops deployed by George W Bush and Blair in Iraq
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,148

    Mr. Meeks, a video on Youtube has to be sought out to be seen. If somebody's putting up a tribute to a career criminal outside your house, it's rather harder to ignore.

    Also, not a great comparison as the chap you refer to was arrested, prosecuted and has been convicted (awaiting sentence) of a crime for telling a joke some found offensive.

    There's also, as others have mentioned, the Lee Rigby tribute comparison. A serial criminal is being afforded protection that was not forthcoming for a victim of terrorism who served in the armed forces.

    Are you playing Devil's advocate?

    The decision in relation to the flowers for Lee Rigby was in my view a bad one. That, rather than this, was the mistake.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,310

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    Well said.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,594

    I not a great supporter of conservativehome but this is a very good article. I hope she has the wisdom to take the right choice and restrict action to degrading Assad's chemical weapon ability only as stated by Macron.

    Trump is an idiot but that does not exempt us from acting in unity with our allies.

    Report from Russia on Sky this am that the Russians and the US are making space for each other to prevent a wider conflict
    That is indeed a good article. I think there’s support for giving a message to Assad about his use of chemical weapons, hopefully there’s enough backchannels in place that the Russians can clear away from the facilities likely to be targeted. No-one wants WWIII, but the international community can’t do nothing over a clear breach of the chemical weapons treaty.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,364

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    Y0kel said:

    MTimT2 said:

    Y0kel said:

    I mentioned in previous thread something in the Syria situation seemed a little like there was hesitation going on for some reason.

    Lo and behold a report out of Russia that their military men are talking to US military men. Unconfirmed but first sign of back channel talking if true.

    I thought that the back channel for deconfliction, particularly for air space, had been there all along and that the deaths of Russian mercenaries last fall was more down to the Russians not talking to their mercenaries, rather than to any breakdown in US/Russian deconfliction.
    In the context of operations that were not against each other (or each others proxy). This is different and new territory. There is a clear possibility of an extensive US strike against Assad's regime a) across the broad zone of interest lines and b) with possible scope likely to include sites where Russian assets are, such as advisors and liaison officers. There isn't a set of de-confliction rules dealing with that one.



    Western foreign policy now seems to be directed by the Salafists in Riyadh.

    There is no case from a Western Christian perspective in taking action against the legitimate Syrian government. Russia is doing an effective job in helping the regime to deal with the extremist Sunni fanatics trying to topple it, while the West at times seems to be assisting the Islamists.

    There is no conclusive evidence about who is responsible for any of the chemical attacks alleged to have occurred in Syria over the last few years.

    This Gadarene rush by the West to intervene there could lead to WW3.
    Sorry, I didn’t realise you had access to all the evidence HM Government does. Please, do share with us all.
    If there is definitive evidence about the alleged chemical attacks and their perpetrators, there is no reason why it cannot be put in the public domain - it is not likely to need to be kept secret from a military perspective.
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
    Who are ‘bellingcat’ and who funds them? Not taking sides, but this is the first time I’ve heard of them.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellingcat

    I became aware of them when they deconstructed the parade of Russian lies over MH17
    Thanks. Look genuine, don’t they. Nearly put kosher, but ........
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 8,422
    Hmm.... which side to take on this one..... tricky.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,750

    ydoethur said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    It’s called freedom of expression. Last week it was being invoked in favour of Nazi-saluting dogs.

    Do I regard this as appropriate? No. But that shouldn’t be my judgement call. Taste or offence should not be the determining consideration.
    Eh? I missed that one!

    On your substantive point taste or offence may not be, but don't you (as a lawyer) think public order may have a role to play?
    It seems to have given the police an excellent reason to post a 24 hour watch outside the pensioner’s house indefinitely. It may well be aiding not hindering public order.
    Though given the amount of support the pensioner has from the public, the tabloids and his neighbours if they tried anything against him and his wife a viligante mob would get to them even before the police
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 2,334
    What this recent incident has shown is that the politicisation of the police started under New Labour is now complete. The senior management of the police no longer believe in equality before the law, but rather that it should only be enforced selectively on those with ‘protected characteristics’.

    I feel most sorry for the junior ranks.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,217

    ydoethur said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    It’s called freedom of expression. Last week it was being invoked in favour of Nazi-saluting dogs.

    Do I regard this as appropriate? No. But that shouldn’t be my judgement call. Taste or offence should not be the determining consideration.
    Eh? I missed that one!

    On your substantive point taste or offence may not be, but don't you (as a lawyer) think public order may have a role to play?
    It seems to have given the police an excellent reason to post a 24 hour watch outside the pensioner’s house indefinitely. It may well be aiding not hindering public order.
    Reportedly he is yet to return to his home... one might guess why.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,148
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    It’s called freedom of expression. Last week it was being invoked in favour of Nazi-saluting dogs.

    Do I regard this as appropriate? No. But that shouldn’t be my judgement call. Taste or offence should not be the determining consideration.
    Eh? I missed that one!

    On your substantive point taste or offence may not be, but don't you (as a lawyer) think public order may have a role to play?
    It seems to have given the police an excellent reason to post a 24 hour watch outside the pensioner’s house indefinitely. It may well be aiding not hindering public order.
    Though given the amount of support the pensioner has from the public, the tabloids and his neighbours if they tried anything against him and his wife a viligante mob would get to them even before the police
    As I said, aiding not hindering public order.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,617
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    It’s called freedom of expression. Last week it was being invoked in favour of Nazi-saluting dogs.

    Do I regard this as appropriate? No. But that shouldn’t be my judgement call. Taste or offence should not be the determining consideration.
    Eh? I missed that one!

    On your substantive point taste or offence may not be, but don't you (as a lawyer) think public order may have a role to play?
    It seems to have given the police an excellent reason to post a 24 hour watch outside the pensioner’s house indefinitely. It may well be aiding not hindering public order.
    Though given the amount of support the pensioner has from the public, the tabloids and his neighbours if they tried anything against him and his wife a viligante mob would get to them even before the police
    Which in itself is a seriously worrying thought.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 2,986
    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    Leaving flowers as a memorial as a sign of respect and mourning is a laudible human emotion. The issue is location. A pop up shrine at his own home would be fine, but one at the scene of his burgulary is never one that is going to generate respect.

    I hope the police keep a careful watch on the people laying flowers, and identify them from fingerprints. They may well be able to close down a number of other crimes.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,067
    YouGov on Syria strikes (don't) and culpability (Assad):

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/04/12/two-one-public-oppose-missile-strikes-syria/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,750

    HYUFD said:

    The bigger message there is the EU has now given up on stopping Brexit, which they’ve reluctantly accepted.

    They are now bargaining on EEA-EFTA.
    Which unless they make concessions on free movement won't be happening
    If they make concessions, there will be a sizeable queue outside Junckers' office demanding "me too!" And the rest might just be asking "so why the hell didn't we give those to Cameron in 2016 - and keep the UK in the EU?"
    A simple reflection of the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries we were entitled to take but Blair never took may well have been enough
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,148
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    It’s called freedom of expression. Last week it was being invoked in favour of Nazi-saluting dogs.

    Do I regard this as appropriate? No. But that shouldn’t be my judgement call. Taste or offence should not be the determining consideration.
    Eh? I missed that one!

    On your substantive point taste or offence may not be, but don't you (as a lawyer) think public order may have a role to play?
    It seems to have given the police an excellent reason to post a 24 hour watch outside the pensioner’s house indefinitely. It may well be aiding not hindering public order.
    Reportedly he is yet to return to his home... one might guess why.
    If true, I don’t blame him at all.

    That’s a separate (and in my view much more important) problem than one of floral arrangements.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 37,244

    Hmm.... which side to take on this one..... tricky.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,280

    Mr. Meeks, a video on Youtube has to be sought out to be seen. If somebody's putting up a tribute to a career criminal outside your house, it's rather harder to ignore.

    Also, not a great comparison as the chap you refer to was arrested, prosecuted and has been convicted (awaiting sentence) of a crime for telling a joke some found offensive.

    There's also, as others have mentioned, the Lee Rigby tribute comparison. A serial criminal is being afforded protection that was not forthcoming for a victim of terrorism who served in the armed forces.

    Are you playing Devil's advocate?

    The serial criminal is being afforded 'protection' (ffs!) immediately after he died. Lee Rigby died five years ago, and it is reasonable to ask how long such prominent displays should be allowed.

    If they continue to put such prominent displays up in a few weeks' or months' time, then I'd argue they should be removed. But even thieving scum are people, and people who knew them should be allowed to grieve for them just as much as they would for angels.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,217
    Foxy said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    Leaving flowers as a memorial as a sign of respect and mourning is a laudible human emotion. The issue is location. A pop up shrine at his own home would be fine, but one at the scene of his burgulary is never one that is going to generate respect.

    I hope the police keep a careful watch on the people laying flowers, and identify them from fingerprints. They may well be able to close down a number of other crimes.
    Particularly as they have yet to apprehend the other burglar.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 2,334
    edited April 12
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    It’s called freedom of expression. Last week it was being invoked in favour of Nazi-saluting dogs.

    Do I regard this as appropriate? No. But that shouldn’t be my judgement call. Taste or offence should not be the determining consideration.
    Eh? I missed that one!

    On your substantive point taste or offence may not be, but don't you (as a lawyer) think public order may have a role to play?
    It seems to have given the police an excellent reason to post a 24 hour watch outside the pensioner’s house indefinitely. It may well be aiding not hindering public order.
    Though given the amount of support the pensioner has from the public, the tabloids and his neighbours if they tried anything against him and his wife a viligante mob would get to them even before the police
    Which in itself is a seriously worrying thought.
    If the police fail to do their job, people will take matters into their own hands. This was amply demonstrated in the 2011 riots in London, where the communities that banded together to protect themselves suffered less damage than those that didn't.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This morning is a good morning to remember that human rights are something needed for the unpopular, not the popular. No doubt the dead burglar was a toerag. But he is dead and there are people grieving his death. They should be allowed the freedom to express that grief in ways that do not otherwise break the law.

    You don’t have to like it. That’s not the point.

    What utter rubbish.

    Nobody is stopping this man’s family and friends from grieving. Precisely what human right allows them to do so by leaving flowers on a property which does not belong to them, and in such a way as to intimidate his victim?
    It’s called freedom of expression. Last week it was being invoked in favour of Nazi-saluting dogs.

    Do I regard this as appropriate? No. But that shouldn’t be my judgement call. Taste or offence should not be the determining consideration.
    Eh? I missed that one!

    On your substantive point taste or offence may not be, but don't you (as a lawyer) think public order may have a role to play?
    It seems to have given the police an excellent reason to post a 24 hour watch outside the pensioner’s house indefinitely. It may well be aiding not hindering public order.
    Reportedly he is yet to return to his home... one might guess why.
    One can only imagine the distress that is causing his wife with dementia.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,217

    Mr. Meeks, a video on Youtube has to be sought out to be seen. If somebody's putting up a tribute to a career criminal outside your house, it's rather harder to ignore.

    Also, not a great comparison as the chap you refer to was arrested, prosecuted and has been convicted (awaiting sentence) of a crime for telling a joke some found offensive.

    There's also, as others have mentioned, the Lee Rigby tribute comparison. A serial criminal is being afforded protection that was not forthcoming for a victim of terrorism who served in the armed forces.

    Are you playing Devil's advocate?

    The serial criminal is being afforded 'protection' (ffs!) immediately after he died. Lee Rigby died five years ago, and it is reasonable to ask how long such prominent displays should be allowed.

    If they continue to put such prominent displays up in a few weeks' or months' time, then I'd argue they should be removed. But even thieving scum are people, and people who knew them should be allowed to grieve for them just as much as they would for angels.
    I wouldn't argue with that - but there is an serious unanswered question about intimidation. It is an ugly situation with no clear means of resolution.
This discussion has been closed.