To summarise, some analyst from some consultancy thinks we will stay in the customs union, based on anonymous briefings. I fail to see why this is being reported as news, particularly as membership of ‘the’ customs union is simply not available after Brexit.
We can agree to a great deal of customs cooperation without promising to follow the EU in all things. May has tasked DEXEU and DIT with generating some genuinely novel solutions. If talks were going badly, I think we would know about it.
So the "transition" period comes to a juddering halt in December 2020. Then the lorries get stopped in Dover, goods have to be checked, VAT paid etc. Supermarket shelves run empty. Exports get slowed down the other way. Farmers can no longer export their stuff which rots on the M20. Even if the government in a panic allows inbound goods to come in unchecked, it doesn't help the outbound. The paperwork still needs to be sorted somehow.Then shortly after, the election.
This will be "Winter of Discontent" multiplied.
Alternatively Theresa May, if it still is she as PM, can tell Brexiteers, "Sod you, we're staying in the Customs Union"
PS there's also the insurrection in Ireland adding to the general chaos.
In my view, the worst thing about the transition is having to read this sort of nonsense for another 21 months.
Indeed. It's hypothetical. Mrs May isn't stupid. If she's still around she will abandon her remaining Lancaster House red lines and sign us up permanently to the Single Market, the Customs Union and most of CAP. There will be a haggle, some face saving. "Brexit by Thesaurus" as they try to find euphemisms for measures they have already rejected. Most people will go along with the rule taking, at least for a while, just to put the thing to bed. Long term it stores up trouble.
It's a prediction but the central contradiction of Brexit is hard fact. There is no sustainable viable outcome for the UK that doesn't involve a close relationship with the European Union on their terms. If we are not a member shaping the rules we have to be a non-member taking the rules with fewer benefits. We can't be a member because we rejected that in a referendum and democracy must respected. Democracy enables you to make dumb decisions.
The government have been avoiding it but something in that contradiction has to give. Going for rule taking rather than rejoining the EU or indefinite chaos seems a pretty compelling prediction.
To summarise, some analyst from some consultancy thinks we will stay in the customs union, based on anonymous briefings. I fail to see why this is being reported as news, particularly as membership of ‘the’ customs union is simply not available after Brexit.
We can agree to a great deal of customs cooperation without promising to follow the EU in all things. May has tasked DEXEU and DIT with generating some genuinely novel solutions. If talks were going badly, I think we would know about it.
So the "transition" period comes to a juddering halt in December 2020. Then the lorries get stopped in Dover, goods have to be checked, VAT paid etc. Supermarket shelves run empty. Exports get slowed down the other way. Farmers can no longer export their stuff which rots on the M20. Even if the government in a panic allows inbound goods to come in unchecked, it doesn't help the outbound. The paperwork still needs to be sorted somehow.Then shortly after, the election.
This will be "Winter of Discontent" multiplied.
Alternatively Theresa May, if it still is she as PM, can tell Brexiteers, "Sod you, we're staying in the Customs Union"
PS there's also the insurrection in Ireland adding to the general chaos.
In my view, the worst thing about the transition is having to read this sort of nonsense for another 21 months.
You'd rather get it over with quickly and do a permanent deal to stay in the single market and customs union?
I see you’ve taken your lead from Michel Barnier and have now entered the “bargaining” phase.
Only 11 months till you lose that £1,000.
What are they all going to be like when they get to the “depression” stage?
We can't be a member because we rejected that in a referendum and democracy must respected. Democracy enables you to make dumb decisions.
The government have been avoiding it but something in that contradiction has to give. Going for rule taking rather than rejoining the EU or indefinite chaos seems a pretty compelling prediction.
Given that crossing the exit line in 2019 entails the UK losing its accumulated special status as a member, it would be absolutely extraordinary if the government didn't give the electorate one last chance to change its mind, having negotiated a deal that means nothing catastrophic will happen if they still vote to leave.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
Labour are pro Brexit too so it doesn't yet matter how unpopular the tories are, no matter how good the lds do in some local by elections, since lab are the only realistic alternatI've.
To summarise, some analyst from some consultancy thinks we will stay in the customs union, based on anonymous briefings. I fail to see why this is being reported as news, particularly as membership of ‘the’ customs union is simply not available after Brexit.
We can agree to a great deal of customs cooperation without promising to follow the EU in all things. May has tasked DEXEU and DIT with generating some genuinely novel solutions. If talks were going badly, I think we would know about it.
So the "transition" period comes to a juddering halt in December 2020. Then the lorries get stopped in Dover, goods have to be checked, VAT paid etc. Supermarket shelves run empty. Exports get slowed down the other way. Farmers can no longer export their stuff which rots on the M20. Even if the government in a panic allows inbound goods to come in unchecked, it doesn't help the outbound. The paperwork still needs to be sorted somehow.Then shortly after, the election.
This will be "Winter of Discontent" multiplied.
Alternatively Theresa May, if it still is she as PM, can tell Brexiteers, "Sod you, we're staying in the Customs Union"
PS there's also the insurrection in Ireland adding to the general chaos.
In my view, the worst thing about the transition is having to read this sort of nonsense for another 21 months.
Indeed. It's hypothetical. Mrs May isn't stupid. If she's still around she will abandon her remaining Lancaster House red lines and sign us up permanently to the Single Market, the Customs Union and most of CAP. There will be a haggle, some face saving. "Brexit by Thesaurus" as they try to find euphemisms for measures they have already rejected. Most people will go along with the rule taking, at least for a while, just to put the thing to bed. Long term it stores up trouble.
It's a prediction but the central contradiction of Brexit is hard fact. There is no sustainable viable outcome for the UK that doesn't involve a close relationship with the European Union on their terms. If we are not a member shaping the rules we have to be a non-member taking the rules with fewer benefits. We can't be a member because we rejected that in a referendum and democracy must respected. Democracy enables you to make dumb decisions.
The government have been avoiding it but something in that contradiction has to give. Going for rule taking rather than rejoining the EU or indefinite chaos seems a pretty compelling prediction.
Single Market equals FOM though. Mr Brady would surely be opening a big post bag?
We can't be a member because we rejected that in a referendum and democracy must respected. Democracy enables you to make dumb decisions.
The government have been avoiding it but something in that contradiction has to give. Going for rule taking rather than rejoining the EU or indefinite chaos seems a pretty compelling prediction.
Given that crossing the exit line in 2019 entails the UK losing its accumulated special status as a member, it would be absolutely extraordinary if the government didn't give the electorate one last chance to change its mind, having negotiated a deal that means nothing catastrophic will happen if they still vote to leave.
No, it would be extraordinary if we abandoned the decades old principle of doing what the electorate wants before asking if they have changed their mind.
We can't be a member because we rejected that in a referendum and democracy must respected. Democracy enables you to make dumb decisions.
The government have been avoiding it but something in that contradiction has to give. Going for rule taking rather than rejoining the EU or indefinite chaos seems a pretty compelling prediction.
Given that crossing the exit line in 2019 entails the UK losing its accumulated special status as a member, it would be absolutely extraordinary if the government didn't give the electorate one last chance to change its mind, having negotiated a deal that means nothing catastrophic will happen if they still vote to leave.
There is nothing impossible about a stupid decision, and I think that there is an increasing amount of Brexit boredom, even amongst the obsessives of PB.
Transition means that nothing changes apart from us losing our representatives in the EU until 1/1/21. That is the more interesting date.
To summarise, some analyst from some consultancy thinks we will stay in the customs union, based on anonymous briefings. I fail to see why this is being reported as news, particularly as membership of ‘the’ customs union is simply not available after Brexit.
We can agree to a great deal of customs cooperation without promising to follow the EU in all things. May has tasked DEXEU and DIT with generating some genuinely novel solutions. If talks were going badly, I think we would know about it.
So the "transition" period comes to a juddering halt in December 2020. Then the lorries get stopped in Dover, goods have to be checked, VAT paid etc. Supermarket shelves run empty. Exports get slowed down the other way. Farmers can no longer export their stuff which rots on the M20. Even if the government in a panic allows inbound goods to come in unchecked, it doesn't help the outbound. The paperwork still needs to be sorted somehow.Then shortly after, the election.
This will be "Winter of Discontent" multiplied.
Alternatively Theresa May, if it still is she as PM, can tell Brexiteers, "Sod you, we're staying in the Customs Union"
PS there's also the insurrection in Ireland adding to the general chaos.
In my view, the worst thing about the transition is having to read this sort of nonsense for another 21 months.
Indeed. It's hypothetical. Mrs May isn't stupid. If she's still around she will abandon her remaining Lancaster House red lines and sign us up permanently to the Single Market, the Customs Union and most of CAP. There will be a haggle, some face saving. "Brexit by Thesaurus" as they try to find euphemisms for measures they have already rejected. Most people will go along with the rule taking, at least for a while, just to put the thing to bed. Long term it stores up trouble.
It's a prediction but the central contradiction of Brexit is hard fact. There is no sustainable viable outcome for the UK that doesn't involve a close relationship with the European Union on their terms. If we are not a member shaping the rules we have to be a non-member taking the rules with fewer benefits. We can't be a member because we rejected that in a referendum and democracy must respected. Democracy enables you to make dumb decisions.
The government have been avoiding it but something in that contradiction has to give. Going for rule taking rather than rejoining the EU or indefinite chaos seems a pretty compelling prediction.
Single Market equals FOM though. Mr Brady would surely be opening a big post bag?
Indeed. The ‘Red Lines’ are there for good reason, and it would be politically impossible for the PM to back down without a challenge to her leadership.
To summarise, some analyst from some consultancy thinks we will stay in the customs union, based on anonymous briefings. I fail to see why this is being reported as news, particularly as membership of ‘the’ customs union is simply not available after Brexit.
We can agree to a great deal of customs cooperation without promising to follow the EU in all things. May has tasked DEXEU and DIT with generating some genuinely novel solutions. If talks were going badly, I think we would know about it.
So the "transition" period comes to a juddering halt in December 2020. Then the lorries get stopped in Dover, goods have to be checked, VAT paid etc. Supermarket shelves run empty. Exports get slowed down the other way. Farmers can no longer export their stuff which rots on the M20. Even if the government in a panic allows inbound goods to come in unchecked, it doesn't help the outbound. The paperwork still needs to be sorted somehow.Then shortly after, the election.
This will be "Winter of Discontent" multiplied.
Alternatively Theresa May, if it still is she as PM, can tell Brexiteers, "Sod you, we're staying in the Customs Union"
PS there's also the insurrection in Ireland adding to the general chaos.
In my view, the worst thing about the transition is having to read this sort of nonsense for another 21 months.
Indeed. It's hypothetical. Mrs May isn't stupid. If she's still around she will abandon her remaining Lancaster House red lines and sign us up permanently to the Single Market, the Customs Union and most of CAP. There will be a haggle, some face saving. "Brexit by Thesaurus" as they try to find euphemisms for measures they have already rejected. Most people will go along with the rule taking, at least for a while, just to put the thing to bed. Long term it stores up trouble.
It's a prediction but the central contradiction of Brexit is hard fact. There is no sustainable viable outcome for the UK that doesn't involve a close relationship with the European Union on their terms. If we are not a member shaping the rules we have to be a non-member taking the rules with fewer benefits. We can't be a member because we rejected that in a referendum and democracy must respected. Democracy enables you to make dumb decisions.
The government have been avoiding it but something in that contradiction has to give. Going for rule taking rather than rejoining the EU or indefinite chaos seems a pretty compelling prediction.
Single Market equals FOM though. Mr Brady would surely be opening a big post bag?
He'd be looking out the pearl handled revolver....
F1: hmm. Seems the tyres are ultrasoft, soft and medium. Wonder if Mercedes will struggle with the ultrasoft.
On his quickest lap, Hamilton’s tyres gave up about three corners from the end, they’ll probably try and run Q2 on the sorts.
McLaren’s turn to f. up a pit stop, Vandoorne leaving with three wheels on his wagon this time. FIA said to be investigating with the teams all the fancy pit systems they’ve got that are clearly causing problems.
Raining now, everyone coming in a few minutes before the end of the session
Village seat. Slightly unconventional. Normally Tory shoe in. Lib Dems did very well.
Interesting. What were the circumstances of the by-election, a major local scandal?
No - from http://britainelects.com/2018/04/11/previews-12-apr-2018/ "Rogate Chichester council, West Sussex; caused by the resignation of Conservative councillor Gillian Keegan, who is now the MP for Chichester. She had served on Chichester council since winning a by-election in October 2014."
Indeed. The ‘Red Lines’ are there for good reason, and it would be politically impossible for the PM to back down without a challenge to her leadership.
She's already found the formula to avoid any challenge over Brexit. She asserts that we are leaving XYZ, says that the Labour party want to stay in XYZ, and ensures that the date when we will actually leave XYZ gets kicked further down the road.
I don't know why they make it so hard for themselves. OK, it won't be without support, plenty are so sick of disastrous military escapades that even a seemingly totally and unrealistically pacifist position will have plenty of backers (and it had no wider impact on the lab vote in 2017), but there have to be some instances where they can concede action was necessary, surely? There are in backed actions to favour, surely?
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
I attended a parish council meeting last night and local councillor for Chichester BC said he had never known a Government to be so unpopular as this. He predicted the Rogate by-election result would be "interesting."
Yet we hear on this board that May is admired for getting on with the job and the Conservatives are still leading the polls.
Chichester narrowly voted Leave with Leave getting 50.9% across the district which was less than the UK average and the Brown, post Iraq Blar, Major, Callaghan, Heath and Eden governments to name just a few were all more unpopular than this one
F1: hmm. Seems the tyres are ultrasoft, soft and medium. Wonder if Mercedes will struggle with the ultrasoft.
Morning, Mr.D. Looks as though everyone is struggling with the US a bit - Mercedes more than most.
Notable that Torro Rosso right up there on top speed. Looks as though McLaren gave up £100m a year for no real benefit, and for the loss of around six months development time. Just to keep an ageing Alonso who costs them around £30m a year...
Village seat. Slightly unconventional. Normally Tory shoe in. Lib Dems did very well.
Interesting. What were the circumstances of the by-election, a major local scandal?
No - from http://britainelects.com/2018/04/11/previews-12-apr-2018/ "Rogate Chichester council, West Sussex; caused by the resignation of Conservative councillor Gillian Keegan, who is now the MP for Chichester. She had served on Chichester council since winning a by-election in October 2014."
Looks like an unnecessary election factor too and as last year proved voters do not like that
Mr. Sandpit, shame the rain didn't come rather earlier.
Yeah, weird how many pit problems there have been. What's the ultrasoft/soft offset? I imagine Mercedes would be safe either way. Might save a pit stop too.
To summarise, some analyst from some consultancy thinks we will stay in the customs union, based on anonymous briefings. I fail to see why this is being reported as news, particularly as membership of ‘the’ customs union is simply not available after Brexit.
We can agree to a great deal of customs cooperation without promising to follow the EU in all things. May has tasked DEXEU and DIT with generating some genuinely novel solutions. If talks were going badly, I think we would know about it.
Snip
This will be "Winter of Discontent" multiplied.
Alternatively Theresa May, if it still is she as PM, can tell Brexiteers, "Sod you, we're staying in the Customs Union"
PS there's also the insurrection in Ireland adding to the general chaos.
In my view, the worst thing about the transition is having to read this sort of nonsense for another 21 months.
Indeed. It's hypothetical. Mrs May isn't stupid. If she's still around she will abandon her remaining Lancaster House red lines and sign us up permanently to the Single Market, the Customs Union and most of CAP. There will be a haggle, some face saving. "Brexit by Thesaurus" as they try to find euphemisms for measures they have already rejected. Most people will go along with the rule taking, at least for a while, just to put the thing to bed. Long term it stores up trouble.
It's a prediction but the central contradiction of Brexit is hard fact. There is no sustainable viable outcome for the UK that doesn't involve a close relationship with the European Union on their terms. If we are not a member shaping the rules we have to be a non-member taking the rules with fewer benefits. We can't be a member because we rejected that in a referendum and democracy must respected. Democracy enables you to make dumb decisions.
The government have been avoiding it but something in that contradiction has to give. Going for rule taking rather than rejoining the EU or indefinite chaos seems a pretty compelling prediction.
Can you please spare us your Europhile theology masquerading as analysis? You are either incapable or unwilling to recognise that there are considerations other than the economic status quo when it comes to our relationship with the EU. Until you do, I think you’ll struggle to understand why we voted to leave, and why we’re going to leave.
We can't be a member because we rejected that in a referendum and democracy must respected. Democracy enables you to make dumb decisions.
The government have been avoiding it but something in that contradiction has to give. Going for rule taking rather than rejoining the EU or indefinite chaos seems a pretty compelling prediction.
Given that crossing the exit line in 2019 entails the UK losing its accumulated special status as a member, it would be absolutely extraordinary if the government didn't give the electorate one last chance to change its mind, having negotiated a deal that means nothing catastrophic will happen if they still vote to leave.
The chances of a revote are negligible, I'm afraid. People may have given a stupid answer to a stupid question and sensible people might want to know about the alternatives before rejecting the status quo. Nevertheless people voted on the question in front of them, in good faith, and decided to leave the EU. Democracy must be respected. Brexit is entirely about damage limitation now.
On the Kuebler-Ross thing. Noteworthy that Leave supporters on this forum should reach for a coping mechanism for terminal cancer as an analogy for Brexit.
Village seat. Slightly unconventional. Normally Tory shoe in. Lib Dems did very well.
Interesting. What were the circumstances of the by-election, a major local scandal?
No - from http://britainelects.com/2018/04/11/previews-12-apr-2018/ "Rogate Chichester council, West Sussex; caused by the resignation of Conservative councillor Gillian Keegan, who is now the MP for Chichester. She had served on Chichester council since winning a by-election in October 2014."
Oh okay, a councillor resigning because she became an MP definitely doesn’t count as a scandal.
To summarise, some analyst from some consultancy thinks we will stay in the customs union, based on anonymous briefings. I fail to see why this is being reported as news, particularly as membership of ‘the’ customs union is simply not available after Brexit.
We can agree to a great deal of customs cooperation without promising to follow the EU in all things. May has tasked DEXEU and DIT with generating some genuinely novel solutions. If talks were going badly, I think we would know about it.
So the "transition" period comes to a juddering halt in December 2020. Then the lorries get stopped in Dover, goods have to be checked, VAT paid etc. Supermarket shelves run empty. Exports get slowed down the other way. Farmers can no longer export their stuff which rots on the M20. Even if the government in a panic allows inbound goods to come in unchecked, it doesn't help the outbound. The paperwork still needs to be sorted somehow.Then shortly after, the election.
This will be "Winter of Discontent" multiplied.
Alternatively Theresa May, if it still is she as PM, can tell Brexiteers, "Sod you, we're staying in the Customs Union"
PS there's also the insurrection in Ireland adding to the general chaos.
In my view, the worst thing about the transition is having to read this sort of nonsense for another 21 months.
Indeed. It's hypothetical. Mrs May isn't stupid. If she's still around she will abandon her remaining Lancaster House red lines and sign us up permanently to the Single Market, the Customs Union and most of CAP. There will be a haggle, some face saving. "Brexit by Thesaurus" as they try to find euphemisms for measures they have already rejected. Most people will go along with the rule taking, at least for a while, just to put the thing to bed. Long term it stores up trouble.
It's a prediction but the central contradiction of Brexit is hard fact. There is no sustainable viable outcome for the UK that doesn't involve a close relationship with the European Union on their terms. If we are not a member shaping the rules we have to be a non-member taking the rules with fewer benefits. We can't be a member because we rejected that in a referendum and democracy must respected. Democracy enables you to make dumb decisions.
The government have been avoiding it but something in that contradiction has to give. Going for rule taking rather than rejoining the EU or indefinite chaos seems a pretty compelling prediction.
There is zero chance of us staying in the single market post transition period as it means free movement and even Corbyn has committed to taking us out of it let alone May.
There is a slim chance of us staying in the Customs Union after a Commons vote as Corbyn backs that
On Syria I’m torn. On the one hand I’d not touch it with a barge pole for all the obvious reasons, on the other if nothing is done well surely it’s an encouragement to acquire chemical weapons round the world because the conventions signed 90 (?) odd years ago are effectively dead.
My issue with Abbott et al is not so much Syria where I can see Labour’s policy is to “hope things get better and er that’s it” (and I can subscribe to that view in that individual case), it’s rather I think ISIS (or any other enemy) could be beheading people in Trafalfar Square and they’d still be calling for “dialogue” and issuing “condemnations of violence from all sides”.
Vote Leave, the organisation that campaigned for Britain to exit the European Union, has drawn new allegations from a whistleblower.
Mark Gettleson, who worked on communications and web design for Vote Leave, has made a submission through lawyers to the Electoral Commission, alleging that it sought to sidestep spending limits during the referendum campaign.
His lawyer said his submission demonstrated that the youth campaign group BeLeave was part of Vote Leave, and that the money spent by BeLeave should have been part of Vote Leave’s £7 million campaign spending limit.
Mr Gettleson’s evidence includes invoices for BeLeave charged to Vote Leave, which has said that the two were separate organisations. Vote Leave has rejected claims that the groups were involved in illegal co-ordination.
Mr Gettleson is understood to have introduced Vote Leave to the data company Aggregate IQ (AIQ). This clears up weeks of speculation about how Vote Leave and AIQ came to work together....
....The Times can reveal that Mr Gettleson worked on Norman Lamb’s 2015 campaign for the Liberal Democrat leadership with Christopher Wylie, who worked for Cambridge Analytica, and Darren Grimes, the fashion student who ran BeLeave. Mr Lamb’s campaign suffered after Mr Gettleson admitted running a survey asking about Tim Farron’s views on gay rights, without Mr Lamb’s knowledge. Mr Farron went on to win the leadership. A panel set up by the Lib Dem regional parties committee found that Mr Gettleson had not breached party rules or data protection law.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
And just because the Lib Dems have won another council by-election doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Brexit.
Well only the people who voted know that. But if we can't speculate there's not much point to this forum.
You should have learned by now that speculation is only welcomed here if it is pro-Tory pro-Brexit. More fool you.
To summarise, some analyst from some consultancy thinks we will stay in the customs union, based on anonymous briefings. I fail to see why this is being reported as news, particularly as membership of ‘the’ customs union is simply not available after Brexit.
We can agree to a great deal of customs cooperation without promising to follow the EU in all things. May has tasked DEXEU and DIT with generating some genuinely novel solutions. If talks were going badly, I think we would know about it.
So the "transition" period comes to a juddering halt in December 2020. Then the lorries get stopped in Dover, goods have to be checked, VAT paid etc. Supermarket shelves run empty. Exports get slowed down the other way. Farmers can no longer export their stuff which rots on the M20. Even if the government in a panic allows inbound goods to come in unchecked, it doesn't help the outbound. The paperwork still needs to be sorted somehow.Then shortly after, the election.
This will be "Winter of Discontent" multiplied.
Alternatively Theresa May, if it still is she as PM, can tell Brexiteers, "Sod you, we're staying in the Customs Union"
PS there's also the insurrection in Ireland adding to the general chaos.
In my view, the worst thing about the transition is having to read this sort of nonsense for another 21 months.
You'd rather get it over with quickly and do a permanent deal to stay in the single market and customs union?
I see you’ve taken your lead from Michel Barnier and have now entered the “bargaining” phase.
Only 11 months till you lose that £1,000.
What are they all going to be like when they get to the “depression” stage?
The stages of grief meme is among the most tedious and overused on PB. You are an ostensibly intelligent man. Think of something else.
Vote Leave, the organisation that campaigned for Britain to exit the European Union, has drawn new allegations from a whistleblower.
Mark Gettleson, who worked on communications and web design for Vote Leave, has made a submission through lawyers to the Electoral Commission, alleging that it sought to sidestep spending limits during the referendum campaign.
His lawyer said his submission demonstrated that the youth campaign group BeLeave was part of Vote Leave, and that the money spent by BeLeave should have been part of Vote Leave’s £7 million campaign spending limit.
Mr Gettleson’s evidence includes invoices for BeLeave charged to Vote Leave, which has said that the two were separate organisations. Vote Leave has rejected claims that the groups were involved in illegal co-ordination.
Mr Gettleson is understood to have introduced Vote Leave to the data company Aggregate IQ (AIQ). This clears up weeks of speculation about how Vote Leave and AIQ came to work together....
....The Times can reveal that Mr Gettleson worked on Norman Lamb’s 2015 campaign for the Liberal Democrat leadership with Christopher Wylie, who worked for Cambridge Analytica, and Darren Grimes, the fashion student who ran BeLeave. Mr Lamb’s campaign suffered after Mr Gettleson admitted running a survey asking about Tim Farron’s views on gay rights, without Mr Lamb’s knowledge. Mr Farron went on to win the leadership. A panel set up by the Lib Dem regional parties committee found that Mr Gettleson had not breached party rules or data protection law.
That’s the same bollocks that Carole Cadwalladr has being desperately trying to push in the Observer for the past month.
It also completely ignores the fact that the relationship between Vote Leave and BeLeave was cleared in writing by the Electoral Commission before the referendum, and has been the subject of two investigations since the referendum.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
And just because the Lib Dems have won another council by-election doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Brexit.
Well only the people who voted know that. But if we can't speculate there's not much point to this forum.
You should have learned by now that speculation is only welcomed here if it is pro-Tory pro-Brexit.
Untrue. It is more likely to find more agreement if it is pro tory, true, the Brexit split is closer to even given plenty of Tory remainers but some non tory leavers in the mix, and in any case disagreement does not mean 'not welcome'.
To use your parlance, that sort of suggestion is a very tedious and overused meme. Lazy too. You are cleary intelligent, why pretend disagreement is the same thing as views nit being welcome?
For the record if we had a revote I don't know o would Brexit again.
It also completely ignores the fact that the relationship between Vote Leave and BeLeave was cleared in writing by the Electoral Commission before the referendum...
No it wasn't. The Electoral Commission just confirmed that it was ok to donate surplus funds to other campaigns provided they meet the requirements to be considered independent.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
And just because the Lib Dems have won another council by-election doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Brexit.
Well only the people who voted know that. But if we can't speculate there's not much point to this forum.
You should have learned by now that speculation is only welcomed here if it is pro-Tory pro-Brexit. More fool you.
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
The stages of grief meme is among the most tedious and overused on PB. You are an ostensibly intelligent man. Think of something else.
Sandpit see also.
It's up there but lags "it's a view" and "+1" in the sheer obnoxiousness stakes.
So how long has May got to attack Syria before she starts to look a bit daft? A week?
About that. Maybe less.
I don't know that +1 counts as a meme . It's just a manner of expressing endorsement for a post in the absence of a like button. Is a smiley face a meme?
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
The first point you don't know and can't prove so that's just speculation.
As to the second, I've been on here longer than you so I can assert PB has moved to a very anti-Labour and anti-Left position. That doesn't mean it's pro-Conservative or even pro-May but it is strongly anti-Corbyn.
It may reflect the 42-43% who vote Conservative but doesn't reflect the 40% who will still vote Labour.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
And just because the Lib Dems have won another council by-election doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Brexit.
Well only the people who voted know that. But if we can't speculate there's not much point to this forum.
You should have learned by now that speculation is only welcomed here if it is pro-Tory pro-Brexit. More fool you.
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
'A majority of PBers are not Tories'? Au contraire!
It also completely ignores the fact that the relationship between Vote Leave and BeLeave was cleared in writing by the Electoral Commission before the referendum...
No it wasn't. The Electoral Commission just confirmed that it was ok to donate surplus funds to other campaigns provided they meet the requirements to be considered independent.
There have already been two investigations by the EC of this same point, who have twice found no evidence of wrongdoing. The story is coming from someone with a personal grudge and backed by those who think it’s a smoking gun that can somehow overturn the votes of 17 million people. It’s nothing of the sort.
On Syria I believe the delay is due to the need to have everything in place.
The UN debate Syria at Russia's request later today and I would expect that it will result in more deadlock following which an attack at anytime this weekend is likely.
Corbyn constantly hiding behind the UN needs to be challenged for what it is - nonsense and delaying tactics playing into Syria and Russia's hands
If the attack does not happen over the weekend then TM needs to go to the HOC and stand up for the international rules based agreement on WMD and put Corbyn on the spot as his party fractures over it
Mr. NorthWales, Corbyn's stance is unsurprising. He's content to contract out UK foreign policy to Russia by claiming to be an internationalist and citing a body upon which Russia has a veto.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
And just because the Lib Dems have won another council by-election doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Brexit.
Well only the people who voted know that. But if we can't speculate there's not much point to this forum.
You should have learned by now that speculation is only welcomed here if it is pro-Tory pro-Brexit. More fool you.
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
'A majority of PBers are not Tories'? Au contraire!
It's tory dominant (albeit there are intense dis agreements from different flavours of tory) But it's incredibly lazy abd whingey to suggest alternate views are not welcome.
Then how do you classify some others - I find I lean tory more than I used to, and I certainly don't like Corbyn, bit I've voted tory only once across all types of election since I could vote in 2005. Do I count as a firm tory? It's a minefield.
Mr. NorthWales, Corbyn's stance is unsurprising. He's content to contract out UK foreign policy to Russia by claiming to be an internationalist and citing a body upon which Russia has a veto.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
And just because the Lib Dems have won another council by-election doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Brexit.
Well only the people who voted know that. But if we can't speculate there's not much point to this forum.
You should have learned by now that speculation is only welcomed here if it is pro-Tory pro-Brexit. More fool you.
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
More interesting might be to measure the total number of posts from each poster. On this thread alone, even if you don't count the posts from the 'I'm not a Tory but I vote for them' brigade, the post count for Tories outnumbers not Tories by quite a large number.
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
The first point you don't know and can't prove so that's just speculation.
As to the second, I've been on here longer than you so I can assert PB has moved to a very anti-Labour and anti-Left position. That doesn't mean it's pro-Conservative or even pro-May but it is strongly anti-Corbyn.
It may reflect the 42-43% who vote Conservative but doesn't reflect the 40% who will still vote Labour.
What about the lds? With an (ex?) ld leaver and Corbyn fan lds among the ranks, perhaps not typical examples?
I've not commented on the developing Syria situation this far as I have a life to lead but it's irrefutable some form of chemical agent or gas was used in Douma and it seems more likely than not it was dropped from the air and that leaves the Syrian Air Force as the likely culprits.
Whether this was done with the full knowledge and approval of the Russians is much more debatable and beyond my knowledge of how the two operate on a logistical level.
It contravenes agreements in place regarding the use of chemical weapons in Syria (let alone elsewhere) and breaks promises Assad himself made last time round.
Response ? There is a measured and proportionate response available concentrating solely on the production and means of distribution of these chemical agents. Let's be honest - we don't want or need to be escalating the situation by direct attacks on Russian forces and there's enough inane language being thrown round by all sides.
Is there an argument for a personal attack on Assad and his family ? There's no doubt the US targeted Saddam and his family during the Iraq War. Would killing Assad change anything or just everything ? He has a brother who is a General who might simply take over.
I tend to the view that God put Diane Abbott on this earth to make Boris Johnson look like a foreign policy genius .... as a plan it seems to be working admirably.
On Syria I’m torn. On the one hand I’d not touch it with a barge pole for all the obvious reasons, on the other if nothing is done well surely it’s an encouragement to acquire chemical weapons round the world because the conventions signed 90 (?) odd years ago are effectively dead.
My issue with Abbott et al is not so much Syria where I can see Labour’s policy is to “hope things get better and er that’s it” (and I can subscribe to that view in that individual case), it’s rather I think ISIS (or any other enemy) could be beheading people in Trafalfar Square and they’d still be calling for “dialogue” and issuing “condemnations of violence from all sides”.
Oddly, Abbott cited WW2 as an example of when Britain should have used military force, which rather flies in the face of Labour's "it'd only cause more death and destruction" argument given that it was the most deadly and destructive conflict of all time. Indeed, it'd be worth asking why Britain should have gone to war over Poland, when Chamberlain's policy of 'getting everyone round the table' in Munich (and elsewhere) is exactly what Corbyn is calling for over Syria - though Corbyn isn't prepared to keep the threat of war in his pocket, as Chamberlain did.
I've not commented on the developing Syria situation this far as I have a life to lead but it's irrefutable some form of chemical agent or gas was used in Douma and it seems more likely than not it was dropped from the air and that leaves the Syrian Air Force as the likely culprits.
Whether this was done with the full knowledge and approval of the Russians is much more debatable and beyond my knowledge of how the two operate on a logistical level.
It contravenes agreements in place regarding the use of chemical weapons in Syria (let alone elsewhere) and breaks promises Assad himself made last time round.
Response ? There is a measured and proportionate response available concentrating solely on the production and means of distribution of these chemical agents. Let's be honest - we don't want or need to be escalating the situation by direct attacks on Russian forces and there's enough inane language being thrown round by all sides.
Is there an argument for a personal attack on Assad and his family ? There's no doubt the US targeted Saddam and his family during the Iraq War. Would killing Assad change anything or just everything ? He has a brother who is a General who might simply take over.
It used to be said Bashir was not the most powerful assad in any case.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
And just because the Lib Dems have won another council by-election doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Brexit.
Well only the people who voted know that. But if we can't speculate there's not much point to this forum.
You should have learned by now that speculation is only welcomed here if it is pro-Tory pro-Brexit. More fool you.
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
'A majority of PBers are not Tories'? Au contraire!
It's tory dominant (albeit there are intense dis agreements from different flavours of tory) But it's incredibly lazy abd whingey to suggest alternate views are not welcome.
Then how do you classify some others - I find I lean tory more than I used to, and I certainly don't like Corbyn, bit I've voted tory only once across all types of election since I could vote in 2005. Do I count as a firm tory? It's a minefield.
I have voted conservative all my life apart fom twice for Tony Blair and more often lib dem in locals, often because I knew the candidate socially.
I can be persuaded on the merits of some labour, lib dem, and even green policies and debate on here enriches opinion.
The only thing I will never bow to is a marxist communist cabal headed by Corbyn taking over our Country
Vote Leave, the organisation that campaigned for Britain to exit the European Union, has drawn new allegations from a whistleblower.
Mark Gettleson, who worked on communications and web design for Vote Leave, has made a submission through lawyers to the Electoral Commission, alleging that it sought to sidestep spending limits during the referendum campaign.
His lawyer said his submission demonstrated that the youth campaign group BeLeave was part of Vote Leave, and that the money spent by BeLeave should have been part of Vote Leave’s £7 million campaign spending limit.
Mr Gettleson’s evidence includes invoices for BeLeave charged to Vote Leave, which has said that the two were separate organisations. Vote Leave has rejected claims that the groups were involved in illegal co-ordination.
Mr Gettleson is understood to have introduced Vote Leave to the data company Aggregate IQ (AIQ). This clears up weeks of speculation about how Vote Leave and AIQ came to work together....
....The Times can reveal that Mr Gettleson worked on Norman Lamb’s 2015 campaign for the Liberal Democrat leadership with Christopher Wylie, who worked for Cambridge Analytica, and Darren Grimes, the fashion student who ran BeLeave. Mr Lamb’s campaign suffered after Mr Gettleson admitted running a survey asking about Tim Farron’s views on gay rights, without Mr Lamb’s knowledge. Mr Farron went on to win the leadership. A panel set up by the Lib Dem regional parties committee found that Mr Gettleson had not breached party rules or data protection law.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
Yes, it was a good result for the Lib Dems. They do seem remarkably adept at winning district council by elections while failing to make any meaningful progress when elections are held nationally.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
And just because the Lib Dems have won another council by-election doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Brexit.
Well only the people who voted know that. But if we can't speculate there's not much point to this forum.
You should have learned by now that speculation is only welcomed here if it is pro-Tory pro-Brexit. More fool you.
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
More interesting might be to measure the total number of posts from each poster. On this thread alone, even if you don't count the posts from the 'I'm not a Tory but I vote for them' brigade, the post count for Tories outnumbers not Tories by quite a large number.
What about the lds? With an (ex?) ld leaver and Corbyn fan lds among the ranks, perhaps not typical examples?
Don't know - you've brought it up, no one else has.
In terms of the number of posts (as distinct from the number of posters) this site is unequivocally strongly anti-Corbyn and less strongly anti-Left. There is a strong pro-Conservative but not necessarily pro-May element and there are many generally non-aligned posters.
If you get a small clique or cabal dominating the site on a day to day basis simply by the volume of posts it creates a perhaps false notion of representation whereas it is ion fact over-representation of a series of viewpoints.
I don't know why they make it so hard for themselves. OK, it won't be without support, plenty are so sick of disastrous military escapades that even a seemingly totally and unrealistically pacifist position will have plenty of backers (and it had no wider impact on the lab vote in 2017), but there have to be some instances where they can concede action was necessary, surely? There are in backed actions to favour, surely?
All these old white hacks deploy greater than usual systemic misogyny and then the racism kicks in from Brandon's Tory troll farm.
On Syria I believe the delay is due to the need to have everything in place.
The UN debate Syria at Russia's request later today and I would expect that it will result in more deadlock following which an attack at anytime this weekend is likely.
Corbyn constantly hiding behind the UN needs to be challenged for what it is - nonsense and delaying tactics playing into Syria and Russia's hands
If the attack does not happen over the weekend then TM needs to go to the HOC and stand up for the international rules based agreement on WMD and put Corbyn on the spot as his party fractures over it
Agreed. She should really have requested a recall of parliament over the recess though. If there's no action by Monday, a debate and vote is surely essential and will look forced on her and the government by events; if there is action over the weekend, it will take place possibly against the opposition of a majority of the Commons, which is an extremely dangerous position for a minority government to be in.
What about the lds? With an (ex?) ld leaver and Corbyn fan lds among the ranks, perhaps not typical examples?
Don't know - you've brought it up, no one else has.
In terms of the number of posts (as distinct from the number of posters) this site is unequivocally strongly anti-Corbyn and less strongly anti-Left. There is a strong pro-Conservative but not necessarily pro-May element and there are many generally non-aligned posters.
If you get a small clique or cabal dominating the site on a day to day basis simply by the volume of posts it creates a perhaps false notion of representation whereas it is ion fact over-representation of a series of viewpoints.
I was merely curious for your assessentment stodge, I regard you to be very level headed and analytical, more so than me. My impression if we take national polls as correct is lds are averagely represented. But not necessarily as on brand as some
I don't know why they make it so hard for themselves. OK, it won't be without support, plenty are so sick of disastrous military escapades that even a seemingly totally and unrealistically pacifist position will have plenty of backers (and it had no wider impact on the lab vote in 2017), but there have to be some instances where they can concede action was necessary, surely? There are in backed actions to favour, surely?
All these old white hacks deploy greater than usual systemic misogyny and then the racism kicks in from Brandon's Tory troll farm.
Eh? Was this meant to be a reply to me? I cannot see the connection. Are people racially abusing Abbott again (as much as I dislike her as a politician, I imagine she suffers from it pretty constantly, which is terrible)?
On Syria I believe the delay is due to the need to have everything in place.
The UN debate Syria at Russia's request later today and I would expect that it will result in more deadlock following which an attack at anytime this weekend is likely.
Corbyn constantly hiding behind the UN needs to be challenged for what it is - nonsense and delaying tactics playing into Syria and Russia's hands
If the attack does not happen over the weekend then TM needs to go to the HOC and stand up for the international rules based agreement on WMD and put Corbyn on the spot as his party fractures over it
Agreed. She should really have requested a recall of parliament over the recess though. If there's no action by Monday, a debate and vote is surely essential and will look forced on her and the government by events; if there is action over the weekend, it will take place possibly against the opposition of a majority of the Commons, which is an extremely dangerous position for a minority government to be in.
Not sure - it will depend on proportionality and if it only addresses the manufacture and delivery of WMD in Syria.
Anything else would be unacceptable, ie regime change
Strong on chemical attacks, strong on the causes of chemical attacks.
Except when we really, really aren't going to do anything on our own and are not even driving the cart. She can hardly hold a War Cabinet which concludes: "We will do anything we are told to by the US and France."
It is the Brexit analogy. We are going to Brexit but no one in Govt seems to have the slightest idea how or what the details should be save those advanced by someone else (the EU).
Today’s snap ConHome poll on Syria will be interesting. I voted no to any British involvement, but yes to the PM rather than Parliament making the decision.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
And just because the Lib Dems have won another council by-election doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Brexit.
Well only the people who voted know that. But if we can't speculate there's not much point to this forum.
You should have learned by now that speculation is only welcomed here if it is pro-Tory pro-Brexit. More fool you.
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
More interesting might be to measure the total number of posts from each poster. On this thread alone, even if you don't count the posts from the 'I'm not a Tory but I vote for them' brigade, the post count for Tories outnumbers not Tories by quite a large number.
The last poll we did on how PBers voted in 2015 had the Tories and Labour about close to the national average but more LDs and fewer UKIP than nationally, so I imagine ON is more anti Brecit than average.
The posters who are generally pro May, pro Tory, pro Union and committed to respecting the Brexit vote are a small fraction of PB
Blimey, the Tories have won all 3 seats for Killamarsh parish council election. (Former) Labour heartland.
Didn't we mock Corbyn for being ex cited about parish elections?
I lived there for 8 years, and it is the second largest parish council in the country (I think). The parish precept was over a hundred quid on a band A so could be local factors flattering the CON vote, mind. Think its an interesting result though.
Blimey, the Tories have won all 3 seats for Killamarsh parish council election. (Former) Labour heartland. Highest votes: 495 Con, 357 Lab, 183 Ind
Is there any difference electorally between Killamarsh and Eckington ?
I thought that the Conservatives might have been ahead in one of them last year in winning the constituency so clearly otherwise I didn't see how Dronfield and the rural wards could have outvoted Clay Cross and the Chesterfield wards plus both Eckington and Killamarsh.
Blimey, the Tories have won all 3 seats for Killamarsh parish council election. (Former) Labour heartland.
Didn't we mock Corbyn for being ex cited about parish elections?
I lived there for 8 years, and it is the second largest parish council in the country (I think). The parish precept was over a hundred quid on a band A so could be local factors flattering the CON vote, mind. Think its an interesting result though.
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
The first point you don't know and can't prove so that's just speculation.
As to the second, I've been on here longer than you so I can assert PB has moved to a very anti-Labour and anti-Left position. That doesn't mean it's pro-Conservative or even pro-May but it is strongly anti-Corbyn.
It may reflect the 42-43% who vote Conservative but doesn't reflect the 40% who will still vote Labour.
I can as the last PB poll on it had the number of PB Tories almost identical to the percentage who voted Tory at the previous general election.
Though PB has an above average percentage of LDs and Remainers who don't like Corbyn agreed
Today’s snap ConHome poll on Syria will be interesting. I voted no to any British involvement, but yes to the PM rather than Parliament making the decision.
Admitting to accessing ConHome is a PB yellow card offence. Taking part in their voodoo poll is a straight red and diminishing the role of the House of Commons earns you a diner date with Diane Abbott.
Oddly, Abbott cited WW2 as an example of when Britain should have used military force, which rather flies in the face of Labour's "it'd only cause more death and destruction" argument given that it was the most deadly and destructive conflict of all time. Indeed, it'd be worth asking why Britain should have gone to war over Poland, when Chamberlain's policy of 'getting everyone round the table' in Munich (and elsewhere) is exactly what Corbyn is calling for over Syria - though Corbyn isn't prepared to keep the threat of war in his pocket, as Chamberlain did.
The legacy of Munich resonates so strongly 80 years on. The notion we can never be seen to appease a foreign dictator is engrained in the political and cultural psyche of this country. It led to Suez because we couldn't appease Nasser and that was a foreign policy disaster of the first order which actually started the chain of events which led to the 23/6/16 referendum.
Munich wasn't the shameful retreat with which we are presented. Chamberlain knew Britain and France weren't ready for war - he bought us time, valuable time to produce more spitfires and make more available to the RAF. The cost was his political reputation (irrelevant) and the suffering of the Czech people which was prolonged and terrible but had we gone to year and lost the whole of Europe might have gone into darkness.
It's generally true a price has to be paid for action and a different price for inaction. Both May and Corbyn probably know that and understand it. I suspect May seeks the upholding of international law and order as paramount and allowing clear violations to go unchecked now risks greater problems later.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
And just because the Lib Dems have won another council by-election doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Brexit.
Well only the people who voted know that. But if we can't speculate there's not much point to this forum.
You should have learned by now that speculation is only welcomed here if it is pro-Tory pro-Brexit. More fool you.
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
'A majority of PBers are not Tories'? Au contraire!
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
The first point you don't know and can't prove so that's just speculation.
As to the second, I've been on here longer than you so I can assert PB has moved to a very anti-Labour and anti-Left position. That doesn't mean it's pro-Conservative or even pro-May but it is strongly anti-Corbyn.
It may reflect the 42-43% who vote Conservative but doesn't reflect the 40% who will still vote Labour.
I can as the last PB poll on it had the number of PB Tories almost identical to the percentage who voted Tory at the previous general election.
Though PB has an above average percentage of LDs and Remainers who don't like Corbyn agreed
Believing national voting intention opinion polls conducted by respected pollsters is ill-advised.
Believing self-generated PB polls about PB is a special kind of stupid.
Another 'triumph' for Osborne's Apprenticeship Levy:
' Fast food giants, coffee shops and retailers are relabelling low-skilled jobs as apprenticeships, a report says.
The study by centre-right think tank Reform says many firms have rebranded existing roles after being obliged to contribute cash to on-the-job training. '
Blimey, the Tories have won all 3 seats for Killamarsh parish council election. (Former) Labour heartland. Highest votes: 495 Con, 357 Lab, 183 Ind
More evidence that South Yorkshire is turning blue?
Oh my days.
(Yes I know Killamarah is in Derbyshire but it has a Sheffield post code and 0114 as its phone number so it is effectively part of Yorkshire, I’m annexing it)
Today’s snap ConHome poll on Syria will be interesting. I voted no to any British involvement, but yes to the PM rather than Parliament making the decision.
Admitting to accessing ConHome is a PB yellow card offence. Taking part in their voodoo poll is a straight red and diminishing the role of the House of Commons earns you a diner date with Diane Abbott.
We shall pray for you.
To you JackW I confess my manifold sins... I beseech your forgiveness!
I can as the last PB poll on it had the number of PB Tories almost identical to the percentage who voted Tory at the previous general election.
Though PB has an above average percentage of LDs and Remainers who don't like Corbyn agreed
First, you're quoting a PB poll as "evidence" ? Really ?
Second, the question wasn't about the number of Conservatives but the split between LEAVE and REMAIN. I suspect the LEAVE element among PB Conservatives is over-representative of the actual numbers but that's simply speculation on my part.
Today’s snap ConHome poll on Syria will be interesting. I voted no to any British involvement, but yes to the PM rather than Parliament making the decision.
Admitting to accessing ConHome is a PB yellow card offence. Taking part in their voodoo poll is a straight red and diminishing the role of the House of Commons earns you a diner date with Diane Abbott.
We shall pray for you.
Good gracious, Your Grace.
Wouldn't that be illegal across the pond under the Eighth Amendment?
I mean, the offence is serious but surely the punishment is disproportionate. Having to speak to Herself is bad enough, but being forced to eat diner food...
Blimey, the Tories have won all 3 seats for Killamarsh parish council election. (Former) Labour heartland. Highest votes: 495 Con, 357 Lab, 183 Ind
More evidence that South Yorkshire is turning blue?
Oh my days.
(Yes I know Killamarah is in Derbyshire but it has a Sheffield post code and 0114 as its phone number so it is effectively part of Yorkshire, I’m annexing it)
They're not really Tories but infiltrators from the Pineapple Pizza Party ....
"Vladimir Putin’s abusive stranglehold over European gas supplies has been laid bare by explosive EU documents, exposing deliberate violations of EU law and a pattern of political bullying over almost a decade."
"The report suggests that Germany has been enjoying a sweetheart deal with Gazprom, gaining a competitive advantage in gas costs at the expense of fellow EU economies and leaving front line states at the mercy of Moscow's strong-arm tactics."
Blimey, the Tories have won all 3 seats for Killamarsh parish council election. (Former) Labour heartland. Highest votes: 495 Con, 357 Lab, 183 Ind
More evidence that South Yorkshire is turning blue?
Oh my days.
(Yes I know Killamarah is in Derbyshire but it has a Sheffield post code and 0114 as its phone number so it is effectively part of Yorkshire, I’m annexing it)
They're not really Tories but infiltrators from the Pineapple Pizza Party ....
I think if we're going to mock Corbyn for Labour parish council gains perhaps we should bear that in mind here...
Blimey, the Tories have won all 3 seats for Killamarsh parish council election. (Former) Labour heartland. Highest votes: 495 Con, 357 Lab, 183 Ind
Is there any difference electorally between Killamarsh and Eckington ?
I thought that the Conservatives might have been ahead in one of them last year in winning the constituency so clearly otherwise I didn't see how Dronfield and the rural wards could have outvoted Clay Cross and the Chesterfield wards plus both Eckington and Killamarsh.
The franchise was restricted to the "west ward", which according to electoral calculus split CON 1,234, Lab 1,690 during the GE.
I'm really amazed by that by-election result in Chichester. It isn't actually in the city at all, it's a rural area which you'd expect to be Conservative under any conceivable political circumstances. I can't even work out how Labour managed to find enough people to nominate their candidate. Just because nobody is talking about it, it doesn't mean that a Brexit backlash isn't developing.
And just because the Lib Dems have won another council by-election doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Brexit.
Well only the people who voted know that. But if we can't speculate there's not much point to this forum.
You should have learned by now that speculation is only welcomed here if it is pro-Tory pro-Brexit. More fool you.
A majority of PBers voted Remain I would expect and a majority of PBers are not Tories even if a plurality are
More interesting might be to measure the total number of posts from each poster. On this thread alone, even if you don't count the posts from the 'I'm not a Tory but I vote for them' brigade, the post count for Tories outnumbers not Tories by quite a large number.
The last poll we did on how PBers voted in 2015 had the Tories and Labour about close to the national average but more LDs and fewer UKIP than nationally, so I imagine ON is more anti Brecit than average.
The posters who are generally pro May, pro Tory, pro Union and committed to respecting the Brexit vote are a small fraction of PB
Today’s snap ConHome poll on Syria will be interesting. I voted no to any British involvement, but yes to the PM rather than Parliament making the decision.
Admitting to accessing ConHome is a PB yellow card offence. Taking part in their voodoo poll is a straight red and diminishing the role of the House of Commons earns you a diner date with Diane Abbott.
We shall pray for you.
To you JackW I confess my manifold sins... I beseech your forgiveness!
Only OGH (Our God-like Host) may afford you redemption for such heinous transgressions. A small donation to Burnley FC Supporters Club (Bedford Branch) is the normal form.
"Vladimir Putin’s abusive stranglehold over European gas supplies has been laid bare by explosive EU documents, exposing deliberate violations of EU law and a pattern of political bullying over almost a decade."
"The report suggests that Germany has been enjoying a sweetheart deal with Gazprom, gaining a competitive advantage in gas costs at the expense of fellow EU economies and leaving front line states at the mercy of Moscow's strong-arm tactics."
I was merely curious for your assessentment stodge, I regard you to be very level headed and analytical, more so than me. My impression if we take national polls as correct is lds are averagely represented. But not necessarily as on brand as some
Okay - apologies for my slight brusqueness. Arguing with the Epping Tory does that on a Friday morning.
I don't have a feel for LD representation on here any more but I'm probably not a typical LD. There's plenty of criticism of the LDs from the usual suspects and not much support for Vince Cable in particular.
The one thing I have detected from talking to newer LD members (specifically those who've joined since 2015) is that while there remains a strong hint of fiscal conservatism, the idea of any support for a future minority Conservative Government in a Hung Parliament is absolutely anathema as is the same notion for a future minority Labour Government led by Corbyn.
One told me he would support a minority Conservative Government on only two conditions - I asked what they were - he said one would be to start immediate negotiations with the EU on cancelling Brexit and returning to the EU as full members and the second the introduction of STV for all elections.
I opined I thought May or indeed any Conservative leader would find those conditions "challenging".
Comments
It's a prediction but the central contradiction of Brexit is hard fact. There is no sustainable viable outcome for the UK that doesn't involve a close relationship with the European Union on their terms. If we are not a member shaping the rules we have to be a non-member taking the rules with fewer benefits. We can't be a member because we rejected that in a referendum and democracy must respected. Democracy enables you to make dumb decisions.
The government have been avoiding it but something in that contradiction has to give. Going for rule taking rather than rejoining the EU or indefinite chaos seems a pretty compelling prediction.
Village seat. Slightly unconventional. Normally Tory shoe in. Lib Dems did very well.
It would in fact be disgusting.
Transition means that nothing changes apart from us losing our representatives in the EU until 1/1/21. That is the more interesting date.
https://twitter.com/JamesTapsfield/status/984692571493621760
McLaren’s turn to f. up a pit stop, Vandoorne leaving with three wheels on his wagon this time. FIA said to be investigating with the teams all the fancy pit systems they’ve got that are clearly causing problems.
Raining now, everyone coming in a few minutes before the end of the session
"Rogate
Chichester council, West Sussex; caused by the resignation of Conservative councillor Gillian Keegan, who is now the MP for Chichester. She had served on Chichester council since winning a by-election in October 2014."
Looks as though everyone is struggling with the US a bit - Mercedes more than most.
Notable that Torro Rosso right up there on top speed. Looks as though McLaren gave up £100m a year for no real benefit, and for the loss of around six months development time.
Just to keep an ageing Alonso who costs them around £30m a year...
Yeah, weird how many pit problems there have been. What's the ultrasoft/soft offset? I imagine Mercedes would be safe either way. Might save a pit stop too.
On the Kuebler-Ross thing. Noteworthy that Leave supporters on this forum should reach for a coping mechanism for terminal cancer as an analogy for Brexit.
There is a slim chance of us staying in the Customs Union after a Commons vote as Corbyn backs that
My issue with Abbott et al is not so much Syria where I can see Labour’s policy is to “hope things get better and er that’s it” (and I can subscribe to that view in that individual case), it’s rather I think ISIS (or any other enemy) could be beheading people in Trafalfar Square and they’d still be calling for “dialogue” and issuing “condemnations of violence from all sides”.
Mark Gettleson, who worked on communications and web design for Vote Leave, has made a submission through lawyers to the Electoral Commission, alleging that it sought to sidestep spending limits during the referendum campaign.
His lawyer said his submission demonstrated that the youth campaign group BeLeave was part of Vote Leave, and that the money spent by BeLeave should have been part of Vote Leave’s £7 million campaign spending limit.
Mr Gettleson’s evidence includes invoices for BeLeave charged to Vote Leave, which has said that the two were separate organisations. Vote Leave has rejected claims that the groups were involved in illegal co-ordination.
Mr Gettleson is understood to have introduced Vote Leave to the data company Aggregate IQ (AIQ). This clears up weeks of speculation about how Vote Leave and AIQ came to work together....
....The Times can reveal that Mr Gettleson worked on Norman Lamb’s 2015 campaign for the Liberal Democrat leadership with Christopher Wylie, who worked for Cambridge Analytica, and Darren Grimes, the fashion student who ran BeLeave. Mr Lamb’s campaign suffered after Mr Gettleson admitted running a survey asking about Tim Farron’s views on gay rights, without Mr Lamb’s knowledge. Mr Farron went on to win the leadership. A panel set up by the Lib Dem regional parties committee found that Mr Gettleson had not breached party rules or data protection law.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/vote-leave-dodged-limits-on-spending-says-insider-zbg57n3ph
That said, McLaren have double points finishes at both races so far. Toro Rosso looked nowhere in Oz and there are many street circuits this year.
Sandpit see also.
It also completely ignores the fact that the relationship between Vote Leave and BeLeave was cleared in writing by the Electoral Commission before the referendum, and has been the subject of two investigations since the referendum.
So how long has May got to attack Syria before she starts to look a bit daft? A week?
To use your parlance, that sort of suggestion is a very tedious and overused meme. Lazy too. You are cleary intelligent, why pretend disagreement is the same thing as views nit being welcome?
For the record if we had a revote I don't know o would Brexit again.
I don't know that +1 counts as a meme . It's just a manner of expressing endorsement for a post in the absence of a like button. Is a smiley face a meme?
As to the second, I've been on here longer than you so I can assert PB has moved to a very anti-Labour and anti-Left position. That doesn't mean it's pro-Conservative or even pro-May but it is strongly anti-Corbyn.
It may reflect the 42-43% who vote Conservative but doesn't reflect the 40% who will still vote Labour.
The UN debate Syria at Russia's request later today and I would expect that it will result in more deadlock following which an attack at anytime this weekend is likely.
Corbyn constantly hiding behind the UN needs to be challenged for what it is - nonsense and delaying tactics playing into Syria and Russia's hands
If the attack does not happen over the weekend then TM needs to go to the HOC and stand up for the international rules based agreement on WMD and put Corbyn on the spot as his party fractures over it
Then how do you classify some others - I find I lean tory more than I used to, and I certainly don't like Corbyn, bit I've voted tory only once across all types of election since I could vote in 2005. Do I count as a firm tory? It's a minefield.
I've not commented on the developing Syria situation this far as I have a life to lead but it's irrefutable some form of chemical agent or gas was used in Douma and it seems more likely than not it was dropped from the air and that leaves the Syrian Air Force as the likely culprits.
Whether this was done with the full knowledge and approval of the Russians is much more debatable and beyond my knowledge of how the two operate on a logistical level.
It contravenes agreements in place regarding the use of chemical weapons in Syria (let alone elsewhere) and breaks promises Assad himself made last time round.
Response ? There is a measured and proportionate response available concentrating solely on the production and means of distribution of these chemical agents. Let's be honest - we don't want or need to be escalating the situation by direct attacks on Russian forces and there's enough inane language being thrown round by all sides.
Is there an argument for a personal attack on Assad and his family ? There's no doubt the US targeted Saddam and his family during the Iraq War. Would killing Assad change anything or just everything ? He has a brother who is a General who might simply take over.
I can be persuaded on the merits of some labour, lib dem, and even green policies and debate on here enriches opinion.
The only thing I will never bow to is a marxist communist cabal headed by Corbyn taking over our Country
Wouldn't mentioning it at the time have been more effective?
*shuffles nervously at post count*
Agreed.
Colour me xxxxxx.
and
Ad hominem attack
are also annoying, and read/heard pretty much only on here, and far too frequently!
In terms of the number of posts (as distinct from the number of posters) this site is unequivocally strongly anti-Corbyn and less strongly anti-Left. There is a strong pro-Conservative but not necessarily pro-May element and there are many generally non-aligned posters.
If you get a small clique or cabal dominating the site on a day to day basis simply by the volume of posts it creates a perhaps false notion of representation whereas it is ion fact over-representation of a series of viewpoints.
Highest votes: 495 Con, 357 Lab, 183 Ind
Do we agree about everything? No.
Do we knock 7 metaphorical bells out of each other from time to time? Yes.
Is whingeing about the number of Tories on a free to access website justified? No.
Anything else would be unacceptable, ie regime change
Strong on chemical attacks, strong on the causes of chemical attacks.
Except when we really, really aren't going to do anything on our own and are not even driving the cart. She can hardly hold a War Cabinet which concludes: "We will do anything we are told to by the US and France."
It is the Brexit analogy. We are going to Brexit but no one in Govt seems to have the slightest idea how or what the details should be save those advanced by someone else (the EU).
Non Tories whinge.
We get it.
The posters who are generally pro May, pro Tory, pro Union and committed to respecting the Brexit vote are a small fraction of PB
I thought that the Conservatives might have been ahead in one of them last year in winning the constituency so clearly otherwise I didn't see how Dronfield and the rural wards could have outvoted Clay Cross and the Chesterfield wards plus both Eckington and Killamarsh.
Though PB has an above average percentage of LDs and Remainers who don't like Corbyn agreed
We shall pray for you.
Munich wasn't the shameful retreat with which we are presented. Chamberlain knew Britain and France weren't ready for war - he bought us time, valuable time to produce more spitfires and make more available to the RAF. The cost was his political reputation (irrelevant) and the suffering of the Czech people which was prolonged and terrible but had we gone to year and lost the whole of Europe might have gone into darkness.
It's generally true a price has to be paid for action and a different price for inaction. Both May and Corbyn probably know that and understand it. I suspect May seeks the upholding of international law and order as paramount and allowing clear violations to go unchecked now risks greater problems later.
Believing self-generated PB polls about PB is a special kind of stupid.
' Fast food giants, coffee shops and retailers are relabelling low-skilled jobs as apprenticeships, a report says.
The study by centre-right think tank Reform says many firms have rebranded existing roles after being obliged to contribute cash to on-the-job training. '
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-43739963
Oh my days.
(Yes I know Killamarah is in Derbyshire but it has a Sheffield post code and 0114 as its phone number so it is effectively part of Yorkshire, I’m annexing it)
Second, the question wasn't about the number of Conservatives but the split between LEAVE and REMAIN. I suspect the LEAVE element among PB Conservatives is over-representative of the actual numbers but that's simply speculation on my part.
Wouldn't that be illegal across the pond under the Eighth Amendment?
I mean, the offence is serious but surely the punishment is disproportionate. Having to speak to Herself is bad enough, but being forced to eat diner food...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/04/12/leaked-eu-files-show-brussels-cover-up-collusion-putins-gazprom/
"Vladimir Putin’s abusive stranglehold over European gas supplies has been laid bare by explosive EU documents, exposing deliberate violations of EU law and a pattern of political bullying over almost a decade."
"The report suggests that Germany has been enjoying a sweetheart deal with Gazprom, gaining a competitive advantage in gas costs at the expense of fellow EU economies and leaving front line states at the mercy of Moscow's strong-arm tactics."
I don't have a feel for LD representation on here any more but I'm probably not a typical LD. There's plenty of criticism of the LDs from the usual suspects and not much support for Vince Cable in particular.
The one thing I have detected from talking to newer LD members (specifically those who've joined since 2015) is that while there remains a strong hint of fiscal conservatism, the idea of any support for a future minority Conservative Government in a Hung Parliament is absolutely anathema as is the same notion for a future minority Labour Government led by Corbyn.
One told me he would support a minority Conservative Government on only two conditions - I asked what they were - he said one would be to start immediate negotiations with the EU on cancelling Brexit and returning to the EU as full members and the second the introduction of STV for all elections.
I opined I thought May or indeed any Conservative leader would find those conditions "challenging".