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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why betting on the 2020 Republican nomination is better value

SystemSystem Posts: 11,709
edited April 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why betting on the 2020 Republican nomination is better value than the Trump survival market

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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,314
    First.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    On a similar theme, this by @paulmotty is worth reading. I'm not as bearish on Trump as he is, but there's loads of anomalies between the markets. http://politicalgambler.com/win-money-hedging-betfairs-trump-specials/
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,854
    Magma? - I know he has a volcanic temperament and all.....
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    OGH said:

    The position of the controversial property magma turned reality TV star

    Superb Freudian autocorrect.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,324
    I'm beginning to think Brexit is doomed.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,863
    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,863
    Pro_Rata said:

    Magma? - I know he has a volcanic temperament and all.....

    And known for frequent meltdowns...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,005

    On a similar theme, this by @paulmotty is worth reading. I'm not as bearish on Trump as he is, but there's loads of anomalies between the markets. http://politicalgambler.com/win-money-hedging-betfairs-trump-specials/

    Does it work if you're in Premium charge territory ?
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    surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    Nigelb said:

    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927

    Yes. Pence and the highly ambitious Nikki Haley.
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    surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    I'm beginning to think Brexit is doomed.

    Why ?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,863
    Good thinking on the betting alternative to "will he survive", Mike.

    If gambling on his being gone before the next election, I'd probably take a punt on this year. The odds are far longer, but things are moving quite fast now, and if Trump is truly vulnerable to criminal charges, I think that will likely become apparent in the next few months.

    And it can always be a trading bet...
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Pulpstar said:

    On a similar theme, this by @paulmotty is worth reading. I'm not as bearish on Trump as he is, but there's loads of anomalies between the markets. http://politicalgambler.com/win-money-hedging-betfairs-trump-specials/

    Does it work if you're in Premium charge territory ?
    He's not advocating offsetting positions, just how to maximise his overall anti-Trump view
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    I noticed an odd thing when I clicked on the link here via Mr. Smithson's Twitter feed (NB doesn't show up on Vanilla): weird black squares flickered as I scrolled down. Entirely possible this is a problem at my end rather than the site's, but thought I'd mention it in case anyone else had seen the same.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,863
    surby said:

    Nigelb said:

    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927

    Yes. Pence and the highly ambitious Nikki Haley.
    Haley would be a not awful alternative to Pence.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,324
    surby said:

    I'm beginning to think Brexit is doomed.

    Why ?
    All the fun's gone out of it, and no one seems particularly enthusiastic about it any more. It just feels like a fad that's had its day. I'm expecting no end of row back on it and no one being bothered.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    If Donald Trump is not felled by Congress and chooses to run again, I can only see him being beaten if the rest of the Republican party lines up behind a single candidate. That doesn't look likely.

    To me this is mainly a bet on Donald Trump choosing not to run again.
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    This hostile environment crisis has exposed the venality and heartlessness of May's government to many voters prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt.If there were any Tories out there who believed TMay was a leader they might vote for in the next GE, a swinging brick where her heart should be,has changed their minds.May must go.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    edited April 2018
    Betting Post

    Tennis: backed Cilic to beat Raonic 2-0 at Monte Carlo. They've met thrice, 2-1 in Cilic's favour. Both his victories have been in straight sets. He's also won their only match on clay (surface of Monte Carlo).

    Edited extra bit: ahem, 2.25 with Ladbrokes, 2.35 with boost.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Stephen Daisley - @JournoStephen: A story breaks at #FMQs: SNP MSP Sandra White says she's been handed a document showing the minor injuries unit at Yorkhill Hospital is going to close tomorrow. Sturgeon (and Davidson/Leonard) all in furious conversation with their respective benches.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    If Donald Trump is not felled by Congress and chooses to run again, I can only see him being beaten if the rest of the Republican party lines up behind a single candidate. That doesn't look likely.

    To me this is mainly a bet on Donald Trump choosing not to run again.

    Absent health issues, I'd say that decision will solely be based on whether he thinks he'll win again. He'll surely crave the validation.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    If Donald Trump is not felled by Congress and chooses to run again, I can only see him being beaten if the rest of the Republican party lines up behind a single candidate. That doesn't look likely.

    To me this is mainly a bet on Donald Trump choosing not to run again.

    Absent health issues, I'd say that decision will solely be based on whether he thinks he'll win again. He'll surely crave the validation.
    You might well be right. But that still is a substantial possibility. If rumour is correct, he didn't think he'd win last time. He might well worry that he wouldn't get the validation he sought.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The House of Commons is now pricking up its ears at the idea of a customs union:

    https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/986927566866042881
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    If Donald Trump is not felled by Congress and chooses to run again, I can only see him being beaten if the rest of the Republican party lines up behind a single candidate. That doesn't look likely.

    To me this is mainly a bet on Donald Trump choosing not to run again.

    Absent health issues, I'd say that decision will solely be based on whether he thinks he'll win again. He'll surely crave the validation.
    You might well be right. But that still is a substantial possibility. If rumour is correct, he didn't think he'd win last time. He might well worry that he wouldn't get the validation he sought.
    Indeed. I don't think he'll run if he looks pretty likely (75%+?) to lose.

    Last time he had nothing to lose and plenty of plans for capitalising on defeat. It's been a common lesson from the last few years that the narrow losers in bitter binary electoral choices have been able to ride a wave of (misplaced) grievance. On both sides of the Atlantic, and both sides of Hadrian's Wall.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154

    I'm beginning to think Brexit is doomed.

    The wish is father to the thought...
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    And if he thinks he'll lose, there'll be a health issue :p
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    What was always clear was the mandate to leave the EU.

    What is less clear is what happens next. Many who fought on both sides of the argument have been constructively trying to argue for their version of next.

    Others like yourself and David Allen Green have been looking back and wanting to endlessly rehash old battles. You especially seem to be of the naive opinion that until old battles are refought nobody is going to move on when others already are.

    If David's waking up to what happens next perhaps you can start looking forwards rather than backwards too. I can live in hope.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    What was always clear was the mandate to leave the EU.

    What is less clear is what happens next. Many who fought on both sides of the argument have been constructively trying to argue for their version of next.

    Others like yourself and David Allen Green have been looking back and wanting to endlessly rehash old battles. You especially seem to be of the naive opinion that until old battles are refought nobody is going to move on when others already are.

    If David's waking up to what happens next perhaps you can start looking forwards rather than backwards too. I can live in hope.
    I have always accepted the mandate to leave the EU.

    Leavers, including yourself, seem to think that you can behave disgracefully without consequences and that the losers will just suck it up. That simply isn't going to happen. If Brexit is to be a success, Leavers will need to reconcile with Remainers. That just isn't possible until Leavers realise just how much they have alienated so many.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,054

    surby said:

    I'm beginning to think Brexit is doomed.

    Why ?
    All the fun's gone out of it, and no one seems particularly enthusiastic about it any more. It just feels like a fad that's had its day. I'm expecting no end of row back on it and no one being bothered.
    My gardener thinks it's over and we're out of the EU.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    surby said:

    Nigelb said:

    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927

    Yes. Pence and the highly ambitious Nikki Haley.
    Shadsy just quoted Haley at 20/1 for the GOP nominee. I think that's way too short. For her to get it, she'd need:

    1. To resign her post, challenge Trump, and win. Or
    2. For Pence to go as VP, and then for her to do a Gerald Ford. Or
    3. For Trump to opt to not stand, and for her to win the open vacancy. Or
    4. For Trump to go midterm and for Pence either to not stand or for her to challenge him for the nomination and win.

    None of those seem at all likely - but then I rate Trump's survival chances much higher than the market does.

    I did think she'd have been a good VP pick and still think he missed a trick there - but I don't think he likes powerful women around him.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Others like yourself and David Allen Green have been looking back and wanting to endlessly rehash old battles. You especially seem to be of the naive opinion that until old battles are refought nobody is going to move on when others already are.

    If David's waking up to what happens next perhaps you can start looking forwards rather than backwards too. I can live in hope.

    No

    He is commenting on the epiphany some Brexiteers are now experiencing

    Ever since the vote they have been saying it has been clear. Now that some things they don't like are "clear", they are revisiting their definitions of what was always clear.

    Rehashing old battles, you might say...
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,162

    I'm beginning to think Brexit is doomed.

    The wish is father to the thought...
    And failure is an orphan... No wonder no-one wants to own the Brexit we’re apparently getting.
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    surby said:

    Nigelb said:

    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927

    Yes. Pence and the highly ambitious Nikki Haley.
    Shadsy just quoted Haley at 20/1 for the GOP nominee. I think that's way too short. For her to get it, she'd need:

    1. To resign her post, challenge Trump, and win. Or
    2. For Pence to go as VP, and then for her to do a Gerald Ford. Or
    3. For Trump to opt to not stand, and for her to win the open vacancy. Or
    4. For Trump to go midterm and for Pence either to not stand or for her to challenge him for the nomination and win.

    None of those seem at all likely - but then I rate Trump's survival chances much higher than the market does.

    I did think she'd have been a good VP pick and still think he missed a trick there - but I don't think he likes powerful women around him.
    Pence looks like the very clear fav non-Trump option (obviously all the more so if Trump goes), assuming he doesn't get personally implicated in any Mueller stuff.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,456

    surby said:

    Nigelb said:

    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927

    Yes. Pence and the highly ambitious Nikki Haley.
    Shadsy just quoted Haley at 20/1 for the GOP nominee. I think that's way too short. For her to get it, she'd need:

    1. To resign her post, challenge Trump, and win. Or
    2. For Pence to go as VP, and then for her to do a Gerald Ford. Or
    3. For Trump to opt to not stand, and for her to win the open vacancy. Or
    4. For Trump to go midterm and for Pence either to not stand or for her to challenge him for the nomination and win.

    None of those seem at all likely - but then I rate Trump's survival chances much higher than the market does.

    I did think she'd have been a good VP pick and still think he missed a trick there - but I don't think he likes powerful women around him.
    re: item 1. Given Trump's record, she'll be sacked within 12 months, so will be free to start a PAC etc etc.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,456
    Haley is 24/1 on BF.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    surby said:

    Nigelb said:

    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927

    Yes. Pence and the highly ambitious Nikki Haley.
    Shadsy just quoted Haley at 20/1 for the GOP nominee. I think that's way too short. For her to get it, she'd need:

    1. To resign her post, challenge Trump, and win. Or
    2. For Pence to go as VP, and then for her to do a Gerald Ford. Or
    3. For Trump to opt to not stand, and for her to win the open vacancy. Or
    4. For Trump to go midterm and for Pence either to not stand or for her to challenge him for the nomination and win.

    None of those seem at all likely - but then I rate Trump's survival chances much higher than the market does.

    I did think she'd have been a good VP pick and still think he missed a trick there - but I don't think he likes powerful women around him.
    Pence looks like the very clear fav non-Trump option (obviously all the more so if Trump goes), assuming he doesn't get personally implicated in any Mueller stuff.
    Partially disagreed. Anything that tarnishes Trump will tarnish Pence too. Pence would only be the very clear fav non-Trump option only if Trump goes to me - if he doesn't go then its hard to see Pence winning.

    If Trump doesn't go and runs again then Pence won't run against him, if he does he won't win.
    If Trump survives but doesn't run again then it will only be because he (and thus Pence) is so unpopular he knows he'd lose and thus Pence likely would too.

    Despite his age I can't see Trump simply deciding to retire and pass the baton to Pence.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    This hostile environment crisis has exposed the venality and heartlessness of May's government to many voters prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt.If there were any Tories out there who believed TMay was a leader they might vote for in the next GE, a swinging brick where her heart should be,has changed their minds.May must go.

    May's standing with Conservative voters is pretty high.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    What was always clear was the mandate to leave the EU.

    What is less clear is what happens next. Many who fought on both sides of the argument have been constructively trying to argue for their version of next.

    Others like yourself and David Allen Green have been looking back and wanting to endlessly rehash old battles. You especially seem to be of the naive opinion that until old battles are refought nobody is going to move on when others already are.

    If David's waking up to what happens next perhaps you can start looking forwards rather than backwards too. I can live in hope.
    I have always accepted the mandate to leave the EU.

    Leavers, including yourself, seem to think that you can behave disgracefully without consequences and that the losers will just suck it up. That simply isn't going to happen. If Brexit is to be a success, Leavers will need to reconcile with Remainers. That just isn't possible until Leavers realise just how much they have alienated so many.
    No, I don't think I have behaved disgracefully.

    I do think some like Nigel Farage and UKIP behaved disgracefully but I have nothing to associate myself with them any more than a remain Labour voter would associate themselves with George Osborne or remain Tory would associate with Jeremy Corbyn.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I do think some like Nigel Farage and UKIP behaved disgracefully but I have nothing to associate myself with them

    "I voted for his racist campaign, but I didn't inhale..."
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    surby said:

    Nigelb said:

    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927

    Yes. Pence and the highly ambitious Nikki Haley.
    Shadsy just quoted Haley at 20/1 for the GOP nominee. I think that's way too short. For her to get it, she'd need:

    1. To resign her post, challenge Trump, and win. Or
    2. For Pence to go as VP, and then for her to do a Gerald Ford. Or
    3. For Trump to opt to not stand, and for her to win the open vacancy. Or
    4. For Trump to go midterm and for Pence either to not stand or for her to challenge him for the nomination and win.

    None of those seem at all likely - but then I rate Trump's survival chances much higher than the market does.

    I did think she'd have been a good VP pick and still think he missed a trick there - but I don't think he likes powerful women around him.
    Pence looks like the very clear fav non-Trump option (obviously all the more so if Trump goes), assuming he doesn't get personally implicated in any Mueller stuff.
    Pence inherits if Trump is ousted but if, as seems likely, he simply agrees not to stand for a second term then any number of hats will be thrown into the ring. It is not as if Pence has done anything of note before or since. He is ex officio favourite but there is no obvious enthusiasm for the man.
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Scott_P said:
    Could we create some sort of decoy newspaper that interviews Tony Blair, Hilary Clinton and Nick Timothy then never publishes anything, so the rest of us don't have to keep hearing them?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,162

    What was always clear was the mandate to leave the EU.

    What is less clear is what happens next. Many who fought on both sides of the argument have been constructively trying to argue for their version of next.

    Others like yourself and David Allen Green have been looking back and wanting to endlessly rehash old battles. You especially seem to be of the naive opinion that until old battles are refought nobody is going to move on when others already are.

    If David's waking up to what happens next perhaps you can start looking forwards rather than backwards too. I can live in hope.
    I have always accepted the mandate to leave the EU.

    Leavers, including yourself, seem to think that you can behave disgracefully without consequences and that the losers will just suck it up. That simply isn't going to happen. If Brexit is to be a success, Leavers will need to reconcile with Remainers. That just isn't possible until Leavers realise just how much they have alienated so many.
    No, I don't think I have behaved disgracefully.

    I do think some like Nigel Farage and UKIP behaved disgracefully but I have nothing to associate myself with them any more than a remain Labour voter would associate themselves with George Osborne or remain Tory would associate with Jeremy Corbyn.
    It's striking how similar Brexiteers distancing themselves from xenophobia sound to Corbynites distancing themselves from anti-Semitism. Even down to the reluctance to admit it's there.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    surby said:

    Nigelb said:

    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927

    Yes. Pence and the highly ambitious Nikki Haley.
    Shadsy just quoted Haley at 20/1 for the GOP nominee. I think that's way too short. For her to get it, she'd need:

    1. To resign her post, challenge Trump, and win. Or
    2. For Pence to go as VP, and then for her to do a Gerald Ford. Or
    3. For Trump to opt to not stand, and for her to win the open vacancy. Or
    4. For Trump to go midterm and for Pence either to not stand or for her to challenge him for the nomination and win.

    None of those seem at all likely - but then I rate Trump's survival chances much higher than the market does.

    I did think she'd have been a good VP pick and still think he missed a trick there - but I don't think he likes powerful women around him.
    re: item 1. Given Trump's record, she'll be sacked within 12 months, so will be free to start a PAC etc etc.
    That's a fair point and (1) should really be subdivided into 'gets sacked' and 'resigns'. However, 12 months is close to the limit. The campaigns will need to be in place in something like 16 months' time, at the latest.

    Actually, I don't think her chances of being sacked are all that high: Trump sacks those closest to him. Haley - in New York - is both out of sight and, given Trump's interest in the UN, out of mind.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_P said:

    I do think some like Nigel Farage and UKIP behaved disgracefully but I have nothing to associate myself with them

    "I voted for his racist campaign, but I didn't inhale..."
    I didn't vote for his campaign. I have never voted for UKIP in my life, always listed them last if there's been a preferential system unless the BNP were on the list and he didn't take part in either sides official campaign in the referendum.

    He is a tertiary non figure in my political life as much as you blow him up into something large in yours.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    Scott_P said:

    I do think some like Nigel Farage and UKIP behaved disgracefully but I have nothing to associate myself with them

    "I voted for his racist campaign, but I didn't inhale..."
    As is frequently pointed out, when the question of Customs Union membership comes up, the vote was on whether one wished, or did not wish, to remain a member of the EU.

    It was not do you approve of Nigel Farage, any more than it was do you approve of George Osborne, David Cameron etc?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Could we create some sort of decoy newspaper that interviews Tony Blair, Hilary Clinton and Nick Timothy then never publishes anything, so the rest of us don't have to keep hearing them?

    A bit like Fat Eck going on Russia Today, that nobody watches, instead of the BBC inviting him on every week.

    It might just work!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,863

    surby said:

    Nigelb said:

    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927

    Yes. Pence and the highly ambitious Nikki Haley.
    Shadsy just quoted Haley at 20/1 for the GOP nominee. I think that's way too short. For her to get it, she'd need:

    1. To resign her post, challenge Trump, and win. Or
    2. For Pence to go as VP, and then for her to do a Gerald Ford. Or
    3. For Trump to opt to not stand, and for her to win the open vacancy. Or
    4. For Trump to go midterm and for Pence either to not stand or for her to challenge him for the nomination and win.

    None of those seem at all likely - but then I rate Trump's survival chances much higher than the market does.

    I did think she'd have been a good VP pick and still think he missed a trick there - but I don't think he likes powerful women around him.
    Pence looks like the very clear fav non-Trump option (obviously all the more so if Trump goes), assuming he doesn't get personally implicated in any Mueller stuff.
    Pence inherits if Trump is ousted but if, as seems likely, he simply agrees not to stand for a second term then any number of hats will be thrown into the ring. It is not as if Pence has done anything of note before or since. He is ex officio favourite but there is no obvious enthusiasm for the man.
    I don't think he automatically inherits the nomination, though.
    Sure, he'd likely be the favourite, but given what an uninspiring and strange figure he is, not the overwhelming favourite.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I didn't vote for his campaign.

    There was only 2 boxes on the ballot paper.

    You either voted with him, or against.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,162

    surby said:

    Nigelb said:

    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927

    Yes. Pence and the highly ambitious Nikki Haley.
    Shadsy just quoted Haley at 20/1 for the GOP nominee. I think that's way too short. For her to get it, she'd need:

    1. To resign her post, challenge Trump, and win. Or
    2. For Pence to go as VP, and then for her to do a Gerald Ford. Or
    3. For Trump to opt to not stand, and for her to win the open vacancy. Or
    4. For Trump to go midterm and for Pence either to not stand or for her to challenge him for the nomination and win.

    None of those seem at all likely - but then I rate Trump's survival chances much higher than the market does.

    I did think she'd have been a good VP pick and still think he missed a trick there - but I don't think he likes powerful women around him.
    re: item 1. Given Trump's record, she'll be sacked within 12 months, so will be free to start a PAC etc etc.
    That's a fair point and (1) should really be subdivided into 'gets sacked' and 'resigns'. However, 12 months is close to the limit. The campaigns will need to be in place in something like 16 months' time, at the latest.

    Actually, I don't think her chances of being sacked are all that high: Trump sacks those closest to him. Haley - in New York - is both out of sight and, given Trump's interest in the UN, out of mind.
    And if she says something he doesn't like, he blames the person who he thinks wrote it for her.

    https://twitter.com/HelenKennedy/status/986462619749011457
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    surby said:

    I'm beginning to think Brexit is doomed.

    Why ?
    All the fun's gone out of it, and no one seems particularly enthusiastic about it any more. It just feels like a fad that's had its day. I'm expecting no end of row back on it and no one being bothered.
    The leave side are seeing what the end game is with May's negotiations with the EU,just keeping our heads down for now.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,162
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    I do think some like Nigel Farage and UKIP behaved disgracefully but I have nothing to associate myself with them

    "I voted for his racist campaign, but I didn't inhale..."
    As is frequently pointed out, when the question of Customs Union membership comes up, the vote was on whether one wished, or did not wish, to remain a member of the EU.

    It was not do you approve of Nigel Farage, any more than it was do you approve of George Osborne, David Cameron etc?
    The question was "Should the UK remain a member of the EU?" There are a million 'buts' that could follow a negative answer but the referendum didn't allow people the chance to express them.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,145
    I see that despite eight years of 'austerity', the retail apocalypse and the beast from the east retail sales last month were more than double what they were during the Loadsamoney and yuppie Lawson boom of thirty years ago:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/timeseries/j467/drsi
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Scott_P said:
    Dan is reprising the leave/remain smears. He says Labour votes support anti-semitism; doubtless he (or his opponents, or both) will say Tory votes support slinging out elderly Blacks because some junior apparatchik shredded the Windrush papers. Hard luck if you just want weekly bin collections.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_P said:

    I didn't vote for his campaign.

    There was only 2 boxes on the ballot paper.

    You either voted with him, or against.
    You originally said "for" but now have switched it to "with". I wonder why that is?

    I voted with over 17 million people. Doesn't mean I agree or respect all of them. Doesn't mean I agree or voted "for" any of them.

    Do you agree with all 16 million you voted with? Should I associate your views as being for all of them?
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited April 2018
    murali_s said:
    I'm sure you were laughing when the BNP was winning thousands of votes inside the EU.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,456

    surby said:

    Nigelb said:

    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927

    Yes. Pence and the highly ambitious Nikki Haley.
    Shadsy just quoted Haley at 20/1 for the GOP nominee. I think that's way too short. For her to get it, she'd need:

    1. To resign her post, challenge Trump, and win. Or
    2. For Pence to go as VP, and then for her to do a Gerald Ford. Or
    3. For Trump to opt to not stand, and for her to win the open vacancy. Or
    4. For Trump to go midterm and for Pence either to not stand or for her to challenge him for the nomination and win.

    None of those seem at all likely - but then I rate Trump's survival chances much higher than the market does.

    I did think she'd have been a good VP pick and still think he missed a trick there - but I don't think he likes powerful women around him.
    re: item 1. Given Trump's record, she'll be sacked within 12 months, so will be free to start a PAC etc etc.
    That's a fair point and (1) should really be subdivided into 'gets sacked' and 'resigns'. However, 12 months is close to the limit. The campaigns will need to be in place in something like 16 months' time, at the latest.

    Actually, I don't think her chances of being sacked are all that high: Trump sacks those closest to him. Haley - in New York - is both out of sight and, given Trump's interest in the UN, out of mind.
    And if she says something he doesn't like, he blames the person who he thinks wrote it for her.

    https://twitter.com/HelenKennedy/status/986462619749011457
    Reading the article, we need a new word that goes beyond 'omnishambles'.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,880

    surby said:

    I'm beginning to think Brexit is doomed.

    Why ?
    All the fun's gone out of it, and no one seems particularly enthusiastic about it any more. It just feels like a fad that's had its day. I'm expecting no end of row back on it and no one being bothered.
    The leave side are seeing what the end game is with May's negotiations with the EU,just keeping our heads down for now.
    May is slowly slowly starving monkey.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    edited April 2018
    Given Trump won the 2016 GOP nomination with virtually all the GOP establishment against him he will almost certainly win the nomination again in 2020 especially now he is POTUS.

    No incumbent President who has sought to be renominated by his party in the primaries has failed to get the nomination since WW2
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    I do think some like Nigel Farage and UKIP behaved disgracefully but I have nothing to associate myself with them

    "I voted for his racist campaign, but I didn't inhale..."
    As is frequently pointed out, when the question of Customs Union membership comes up, the vote was on whether one wished, or did not wish, to remain a member of the EU.

    It was not do you approve of Nigel Farage, any more than it was do you approve of George Osborne, David Cameron etc?
    The question was "Should the UK remain a member of the EU?" There are a million 'buts' that could follow a negative answer but the referendum didn't allow people the chance to express them.
    You're right. It was a binary choice.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I see that despite eight years of 'austerity', the retail apocalypse and the beast from the east retail sales last month were more than double what they were during the Loadsamoney and yuppie Lawson boom of thirty years ago:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/timeseries/j467/drsi

    Does that account for inflation, population growth and GDP growth since then?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,005
    Off topic: Just how many people are employed to go through what I can only presume to be every business in the UK and phone up asking for the "business owner" to sell some crap or other ?
    The number must be huge.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited April 2018

    You originally said "for" but now have switched it to "with". I wonder why that is?

    English grammar

    You voted with him, for his campaign.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,145
    The latest on the shambles which George Osborne's Apprenticeship Levy is turning out to be:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43809679

    Now is this part of the persecution of immigrants I've read about here or is it because application of policy by government departments is crap ?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    Scott_P said:

    I didn't vote for his campaign.

    There was only 2 boxes on the ballot paper.

    You either voted with him, or against.
    You originally said "for" but now have switched it to "with". I wonder why that is?

    I voted with over 17 million people. Doesn't mean I agree or respect all of them. Doesn't mean I agree or voted "for" any of them.

    Do you agree with all 16 million you voted with? Should I associate your views as being for all of them?
    I voted with George Galloway. It doesn't follow that I agree with him on anything, bar EU membership.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    surby said:

    I'm beginning to think Brexit is doomed.

    Why ?
    All the fun's gone out of it, and no one seems particularly enthusiastic about it any more. It just feels like a fad that's had its day. I'm expecting no end of row back on it and no one being bothered.
    The leave side are seeing what the end game is with May's negotiations with the EU,just keeping our heads down for now.
    May is slowly slowly starving monkey.
    She's finished then and so will be any one who betrays the leave vote.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,456
    HYUFD said:

    Given Trump won the 2016 GOP nomination with virtually all the GOP establishment against him he will almost certainly win the nomination again in 2020 especially now he is POTUS.

    No incumbent President who has sought to be renominated by his party in the primaries has failed to get the nomination since WW2

    A Dem, LBJ, withdraw when he saw support ebbing away, thanks to Vietnam.

    Who knows what Trump will have gotten the US into by the primaries.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    What was always clear was the mandate to leave the EU.

    What is less clear is what happens next. Many who fought on both sides of the argument have been constructively trying to argue for their version of next.

    Others like yourself and David Allen Green have been looking back and wanting to endlessly rehash old battles. You especially seem to be of the naive opinion that until old battles are refought nobody is going to move on when others already are.

    If David's waking up to what happens next perhaps you can start looking forwards rather than backwards too. I can live in hope.
    I have always accepted the mandate to leave the EU.

    Leavers, including yourself, seem to think that you can behave disgracefully without consequences and that the losers will just suck it up. That simply isn't going to happen. If Brexit is to be a success, Leavers will need to reconcile with Remainers. That just isn't possible until Leavers realise just how much they have alienated so many.
    No, I don't think I have behaved disgracefully.

    I do think some like Nigel Farage and UKIP behaved disgracefully but I have nothing to associate myself with them any more than a remain Labour voter would associate themselves with George Osborne or remain Tory would associate with Jeremy Corbyn.
    It's striking how similar Brexiteers distancing themselves from xenophobia sound to Corbynites distancing themselves from anti-Semitism. Even down to the reluctance to admit it's there.
    No its completely different. Xenophobia is there in the form of racist party leaders like Nigel Farage and whoever's turn it is to lead that party today and in the specific form of antisemitism in Jeremy Corbyn.

    In the binary choice we faced there were racists on both sides of the fence. There's a difference between party politics where the party leader is racist and tolerant of racists within his party and if they win the election that party leader takes over running the country ... and binary yes/no questions where we only address the question and it doesn't determine who runs the country.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,145

    I see that despite eight years of 'austerity', the retail apocalypse and the beast from the east retail sales last month were more than double what they were during the Loadsamoney and yuppie Lawson boom of thirty years ago:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/timeseries/j467/drsi

    Does that account for inflation, population growth and GDP growth since then?
    Its retail sales volume so not affected by inflation.

    The population and GDP are larger than they were thirty years ago but retail sales will still have increased significantly.

    RCS would be able to give a more detailed analysis.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    surby said:

    Nigelb said:

    Comey is probably doing Trump more good than harm.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of his treatment, it is not a good look for a former FBI director - and potential witness in the Mueller investigation - to be doing a trash talking book tour.
    He was politically naive to the point of idiocy in his treatment of the Clinton emails days before the election, and doesn't appear to have acquired much wisdom since then.

    The Cohen raid is a far greater threat to Trump.

    The Dems seem to have one eye on the possibility of Pence being their opponent come the next presidential election...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/19/pence-lgbt-human-rights-536927

    Yes. Pence and the highly ambitious Nikki Haley.
    Shadsy just quoted Haley at 20/1 for the GOP nominee. I think that's way too short. For her to get it, she'd need:

    1. To resign her post, challenge Trump, and win. Or
    2. For Pence to go as VP, and then for her to do a Gerald Ford. Or
    3. For Trump to opt to not stand, and for her to win the open vacancy. Or
    4. For Trump to go midterm and for Pence either to not stand or for her to challenge him for the nomination and win.

    None of those seem at all likely - but then I rate Trump's survival chances much higher than the market does.

    I did think she'd have been a good VP pick and still think he missed a trick there - but I don't think he likes powerful women around him.
    Pence looks like the very clear fav non-Trump option (obviously all the more so if Trump goes), assuming he doesn't get personally implicated in any Mueller stuff.
    Pence inherits if Trump is ousted but if, as seems likely, he simply agrees not to stand for a second term then any number of hats will be thrown into the ring. It is not as if Pence has done anything of note before or since. He is ex officio favourite but there is no obvious enthusiasm for the man.
    "As seems likely"?!

    Do you want to elaborate on that one? Any president who doesn't seek re-election lame-ducks himself for 18 months, which is more than half his remaining term.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,806

    I'm beginning to think Brexit is doomed.

    The wish is father to the thought...
    And failure is an orphan... No wonder no-one wants to own the Brexit we’re apparently getting.
    Correct. Unfortunately we will get the failure, or more accurately a huge mess. As far as Leave is concerned, it's a result. We're out of the EU.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_P said:

    You originally said "for" but now have switched it to "with". I wonder why that is?

    English grammar

    You voted with him, for his campaign.
    No I didn't vote for his campaign. He didn't run the leave campaign in fact he was ostracised from the official leave campaign.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187

    HYUFD said:

    Given Trump won the 2016 GOP nomination with virtually all the GOP establishment against him he will almost certainly win the nomination again in 2020 especially now he is POTUS.

    No incumbent President who has sought to be renominated by his party in the primaries has failed to get the nomination since WW2

    A Dem, LBJ, withdraw when he saw support ebbing away, thanks to Vietnam.

    Who knows what Trump will have gotten the US into by the primaries.
    Though LBJ's VP ultimately won the nomination and in that case it was the Democratic base voting for McCarthy over Vietnam which did for LBJ, Trump already has the GOP base locked up
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    No I didn't vote for his campaign.

    You didn't vote against it. Those were the only options
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154
    Scott_P said:
    "might of been...."???

    Discard everything that follows....
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    What was always clear was the mandate to leave the EU.

    What is less clear is what happens next. Many who fought on both sides of the argument have been constructively trying to argue for their version of next.

    Others like yourself and David Allen Green have been looking back and wanting to endlessly rehash old battles. You especially seem to be of the naive opinion that until old battles are refought nobody is going to move on when others already are.

    If David's waking up to what happens next perhaps you can start looking forwards rather than backwards too. I can live in hope.
    I have always accepted the mandate to leave the EU.

    Leavers, including yourself, seem to think that you can behave disgracefully without consequences and that the losers will just suck it up. That simply isn't going to happen. If Brexit is to be a success, Leavers will need to reconcile with Remainers. That just isn't possible until Leavers realise just how much they have alienated so many.
    No, I don't think I have behaved disgracefully.

    I do think some like Nigel Farage and UKIP behaved disgracefully but I have nothing to associate myself with them any more than a remain Labour voter would associate themselves with George Osborne or remain Tory would associate with Jeremy Corbyn.
    It's striking how similar Brexiteers distancing themselves from xenophobia sound to Corbynites distancing themselves from anti-Semitism. Even down to the reluctance to admit it's there.
    I would never argue that anyone who votes for Labour is endorsing anti-Semitism. You yourself voted Labour, after all.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,456
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given Trump won the 2016 GOP nomination with virtually all the GOP establishment against him he will almost certainly win the nomination again in 2020 especially now he is POTUS.

    No incumbent President who has sought to be renominated by his party in the primaries has failed to get the nomination since WW2

    A Dem, LBJ, withdraw when he saw support ebbing away, thanks to Vietnam.

    Who knows what Trump will have gotten the US into by the primaries.
    Though LBJ's VP ultimately won the nomination and in that case it was the Democratic base voting for McCarthy over Vietnam which did for LBJ, Trump already has the GOP base locked up
    He might lose it, if he ends up starting a war in the middle east.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given Trump won the 2016 GOP nomination with virtually all the GOP establishment against him he will almost certainly win the nomination again in 2020 especially now he is POTUS.

    No incumbent President who has sought to be renominated by his party in the primaries has failed to get the nomination since WW2

    A Dem, LBJ, withdraw when he saw support ebbing away, thanks to Vietnam.

    Who knows what Trump will have gotten the US into by the primaries.
    Though LBJ's VP ultimately won the nomination and in that case it was the Democratic base voting for McCarthy over Vietnam which did for LBJ, Trump already has the GOP base locked up
    He might lose it, if he ends up starting a war in the middle east.
    Only if he deploys ground troops and even then Republican primary voters tend to be as hawkish as you can get so he would probably survive
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,162
    edited April 2018
    Sean_F said:

    What was always clear was the mandate to leave the EU.

    What is less clear is what happens next. Many who fought on both sides of the argument have been constructively trying to argue for their version of next.

    Others like yourself and David Allen Green have been looking back and wanting to endlessly rehash old battles. You especially seem to be of the naive opinion that until old battles are refought nobody is going to move on when others already are.

    If David's waking up to what happens next perhaps you can start looking forwards rather than backwards too. I can live in hope.
    I have always accepted the mandate to leave the EU.

    Leavers, including yourself, seem to think that you can behave disgracefully without consequences and that the losers will just suck it up. That simply isn't going to happen. If Brexit is to be a success, Leavers will need to reconcile with Remainers. That just isn't possible until Leavers realise just how much they have alienated so many.
    No, I don't think I have behaved disgracefully.

    I do think some like Nigel Farage and UKIP behaved disgracefully but I have nothing to associate myself with them any more than a remain Labour voter would associate themselves with George Osborne or remain Tory would associate with Jeremy Corbyn.
    It's striking how similar Brexiteers distancing themselves from xenophobia sound to Corbynites distancing themselves from anti-Semitism. Even down to the reluctance to admit it's there.
    I would never argue that anyone who votes for Labour is endorsing anti-Semitism. You yourself voted Labour, after all.
    And I would never argue that everyone who voted to leave the EU supports Brexit.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    I am ashamed to say that I voted in the referendum on the same side as Alex Salmond, Eddie Izzard, Owen Jones, Polly Toynbee and Caroline Lucas.

    (well probably, anyway).
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I see that despite eight years of 'austerity', the retail apocalypse and the beast from the east retail sales last month were more than double what they were during the Loadsamoney and yuppie Lawson boom of thirty years ago:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/timeseries/j467/drsi

    Does that account for inflation, population growth and GDP growth since then?
    Its retail sales volume so not affected by inflation.

    The population and GDP are larger than they were thirty years ago but retail sales will still have increased significantly.

    RCS would be able to give a more detailed analysis.
    Without accounting for GDP and population growth that seems meaningless then.

    GDP per capita has grown well over 50% since the Lawson boom in USD. Probably more in sterling but I'm struggling to quickly find the figures.
    Our population has grown by about 20% since the Lawson boom.

    A 100% growth in volumes seems quite reasonable then.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,880
    Leavers seem a bit miffed today for some reason.
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited April 2018

    I am ashamed to say that I voted in the referendum on the same side as Alex Salmond, Eddie Izzard, Owen Jones, Polly Toynbee and Caroline Lucas.

    (well probably, anyway).

    And Jeremy Corbyn.

    (well probably, anyway).
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Sean_F said:

    What was always clear was the mandate to leave the EU.

    What is less clear is what happens next. Many who fought on both sides of the argument have been constructively trying to argue for their version of next.

    Others like yourself and David Allen Green have been looking back and wanting to endlessly rehash old battles. You especially seem to be of the naive opinion that until old battles are refought nobody is going to move on when others already are.

    If David's waking up to what happens next perhaps you can start looking forwards rather than backwards too. I can live in hope.
    I have always accepted the mandate to leave the EU.

    Leavers, including yourself, seem to think that you can behave disgracefully without consequences and that the losers will just suck it up. That simply isn't going to happen. If Brexit is to be a success, Leavers will need to reconcile with Remainers. That just isn't possible until Leavers realise just how much they have alienated so many.
    No, I don't think I have behaved disgracefully.

    I do think some like Nigel Farage and UKIP behaved disgracefully but I have nothing to associate myself with them any more than a remain Labour voter would associate themselves with George Osborne or remain Tory would associate with Jeremy Corbyn.
    It's striking how similar Brexiteers distancing themselves from xenophobia sound to Corbynites distancing themselves from anti-Semitism. Even down to the reluctance to admit it's there.
    I would never argue that anyone who votes for Labour is endorsing anti-Semitism. You yourself voted Labour, after all.
    And I would never argue that everyone who voted to leave the EU supports Brexit.
    Eh? That's the only thing to assume they supported, at least when they voted.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_P said:

    No I didn't vote for his campaign.

    You didn't vote against it. Those were the only options
    No neither were options since his campaign wasn't on the ballot paper.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,099

    I see that despite eight years of 'austerity', the retail apocalypse and the beast from the east retail sales last month were more than double what they were during the Loadsamoney and yuppie Lawson boom of thirty years ago:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/timeseries/j467/drsi

    Part of this, of course, is because the household savings rate has dropped from 15% to 5%. If your disposable income is 40% of your gross pay*, and you drop the savings rate 10%, then you increase retail sales by 25%.

    * That's probably far too high.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited April 2018

    Leavers seem a bit miffed today for some reason.

    Maybe we are getting the walker syndrome.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,162

    Sean_F said:

    What was always clear was the mandate to leave the EU.

    What is less clear is what happens next. Many who fought on both sides of the argument have been constructively trying to argue for their version of next.

    Others like yourself and David Allen Green have been looking back and wanting to endlessly rehash old battles. You especially seem to be of the naive opinion that until old battles are refought nobody is going to move on when others already are.

    If David's waking up to what happens next perhaps you can start looking forwards rather than backwards too. I can live in hope.
    I have always accepted the mandate to leave the EU.

    Leavers, including yourself, seem to think that you can behave disgracefully without consequences and that the losers will just suck it up. That simply isn't going to happen. If Brexit is to be a success, Leavers will need to reconcile with Remainers. That just isn't possible until Leavers realise just how much they have alienated so many.
    No, I don't think I have behaved disgracefully.

    I do think some like Nigel Farage and UKIP behaved disgracefully but I have nothing to associate myself with them any more than a remain Labour voter would associate themselves with George Osborne or remain Tory would associate with Jeremy Corbyn.
    It's striking how similar Brexiteers distancing themselves from xenophobia sound to Corbynites distancing themselves from anti-Semitism. Even down to the reluctance to admit it's there.
    I would never argue that anyone who votes for Labour is endorsing anti-Semitism. You yourself voted Labour, after all.
    And I would never argue that everyone who voted to leave the EU supports Brexit.
    Eh? That's the only thing to assume they supported, at least when they voted.
    Why? I voted Labour in 2017 and I don't support them. With hindsight perhaps I should have voted for Brexit as a tactical move to increase the chances that we'd eventually join the Euro.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Eh? That's the only thing to assume they supported, at least when they voted.

    BoZo didn't
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    I am ashamed to say that I voted in the referendum on the same side as Alex Salmond, Eddie Izzard, Owen Jones, Polly Toynbee and Caroline Lucas.

    (well probably, anyway).

    And Jeremy Corbyn.

    (well probably, anyway).
    Possibly!
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,099

    I see that despite eight years of 'austerity', the retail apocalypse and the beast from the east retail sales last month were more than double what they were during the Loadsamoney and yuppie Lawson boom of thirty years ago:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/timeseries/j467/drsi

    Does that account for inflation, population growth and GDP growth since then?
    Its retail sales volume so not affected by inflation.

    The population and GDP are larger than they were thirty years ago but retail sales will still have increased significantly.

    RCS would be able to give a more detailed analysis.
    I'm about to jump on a plane (hopefully with WiFi), so will probably give you this a bit of thought later.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    rcs1000 said:

    I see that despite eight years of 'austerity', the retail apocalypse and the beast from the east retail sales last month were more than double what they were during the Loadsamoney and yuppie Lawson boom of thirty years ago:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/timeseries/j467/drsi

    Part of this, of course, is because the household savings rate has dropped from 15% to 5%. If your disposable income is 40% of your gross pay*, and you drop the savings rate 10%, then you increase retail sales by 25%.

    * That's probably far too high.
    Do the NEST contributions count as household savings? Or are they considered as pre-disposable income?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Why? I voted Labour in 2017 and I don't support them. With hindsight perhaps I should have voted for Brexit as a tactical move to increase the chances that we'd eventually join the Euro.

    General elections are complicated beasts where you are forced to vote just once for a party with a million different reasons why. For or against the party, one of many policies, the individual candidates etc

    The referendum was an overly simplistic if anything binary choice - for or against a single proposition. What they thought of any of an almost unlimited set of related issues is uncertain but the choice was simply for or against Brexit. What kind of Brexit is for us to determine now.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,880

    Leavers seem a bit miffed today for some reason.

    Maybe we are getting the walker syndrome.
    You wish. It bestows great perspicacity and wit on the recipient. I think you’re probably safe.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    What kind of Brexit is for us to determine now.

    It really isn't

    That's why the Brexiteers have been whining so heavily recently...
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