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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » David Davis quits possibly making a challenge to TMay more lik

SystemSystem Posts: 6,389
edited July 9 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » David Davis quits possibly making a challenge to TMay more likely

The big UK political news overnight is that the BrexSec and former favourite to succeed TMay, David Davis, has resigned as a minister following his disagreement with the PM’s approach to Brexit. Another of his ministers, Steve Baker, has gone with him.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Would she actually win a secret ballot though?
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,741
    I genuinely don't know if the new proposal / deal / fudge is worth the candle it's written on, or not, or whether it's a huge betrayal, or whether it's a realistic assessment of the most realistic deal which can get a majority from this parliament. When I was chatting about Brexit a few months ago with Gavin Barwell, I realised that a lot of what he was trying to explain to me just went over my head (because my brain is not sharp enough to understand the technical details).

    But what I do know is that I have always been, and probably always will be, frustrated and angry at Mrs May's inexplicably reckless decision to call an unnecessary and unwanted general election. Her repeated slogans that "Brexit means Brexit", and that the UK will leave the Single Market and the Customs Union, have been watered down so much that I don't even know if she actually believes it herself - whether she is deluded, or is consciously lying.

    I can't trust Mrs May to make even the most basic and fundamental decisions on Brexit, or indeed on some other things, so I think that it is time to grasp the nettle by the horns and get rid of her, otherwise the lemmings will come home to roost. I want Michael Gove to be PM, because he is a Brexiteer and because he understands detail.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,760
    Will ministers resigning at midnight on a Sunday please start thinking about those of us in other time zones, who went to sleep happily thinking that the weekend had gone well for the PM, yet now wake up to discover that’s not the case?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,038

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,896
    rcs1000 said:

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."
    Agreed. I suspect the ultras may now go for it and the resultant instability and disunity could easily lead to a GE. A JC Government becomes the most likely outcome. Hello Venezuela. Never has the role of moderate Labour MPs been more important. A disaster for the UK now beckons.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 3,982
    rcs1000 said:

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."
    Hits nail on head. All Davis and the other Brexit department resignations have done is to highlight just how ineffective they have been as a team within the Cabinet, and as a result they have simple weakened both their Government and their cause yet further as a result.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,151
    So minister with a track record of resigning resigns after nearly two years in a critical job where he has made f'all progress?

    The arch-Brexiteers have an ideological sickness, and do not care how much the country gets damaged by their quest for purity.

    And it's a alright for them, and for people like SeanT fpt; they're rich and insulated from the chaos. It's the plebs who will get hurt by their sickness. And the plebs don't matter.

    A government led by an ERGer - and especially JRM - will lead to a Corbynite government. But the ERGers don't care, for they're no different to Corbyn: ideological purity is vital (or at least purity in their heads; the contradictions don't matter).
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 325
    fitalass said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."
    Hits nail on head. All Davis and the other Brexit department resignations have done is to highlight just how ineffective they have been as a team within the Cabinet, and as a result they have simple weakened both their Government and their cause yet further as a result.
    I'll keep saying it. The DUP will not have a Roman Catholic in Number 10.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 470

    So minister with a track record of resigning resigns after nearly two years in a critical job where he has made f'all progress?

    The arch-Brexiteers have an ideological sickness, and do not care how much the country gets damaged by their quest for purity.

    And it's a alright for them, and for people like SeanT fpt; they're rich and insulated from the chaos. It's the plebs who will get hurt by their sickness. And the plebs don't matter.

    A government led by an ERGer - and especially JRM - will lead to a Corbynite government. But the ERGers don't care, for they're no different to Corbyn: ideological purity is vital (or at least purity in their heads; the contradictions don't matter).

    A bunch of Raskolnikovs who don't care who they pointlessly hurt as long as they prove themselves 'great men'.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,896
    MJW said:

    So minister with a track record of resigning resigns after nearly two years in a critical job where he has made f'all progress?

    The arch-Brexiteers have an ideological sickness, and do not care how much the country gets damaged by their quest for purity.

    And it's a alright for them, and for people like SeanT fpt; they're rich and insulated from the chaos. It's the plebs who will get hurt by their sickness. And the plebs don't matter.

    A government led by an ERGer - and especially JRM - will lead to a Corbynite government. But the ERGers don't care, for they're no different to Corbyn: ideological purity is vital (or at least purity in their heads; the contradictions don't matter).

    A bunch of Raskolnikovs who don't care who they pointlessly hurt as long as they prove themselves 'great men'.
    DD has returned to type and confirmed yet again that his defeat at the hands of DC back in the day was the right decision. If the ultras bring down the government god help the UK.
  • LordOfReasonLordOfReason Posts: 210
    rcs1000 said:

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."
    Fair play to Davis, at least one of the Brexiteers has some balls.

    May’s toast. What finished her is the bloody difficult woman tag. I lived through the seventies and eighties, and she ain’t no Thatcher. May is nothing. The embarrassing way she and her team have tried to,spin her as tough leader over the weekend just brings home to everyone of her MPs that she is not PM materiel, hasn’t been from the moment she got the job. When did she demonstrate any command of detail? Three key elections in three years, what campaigning immpression did she leave on them? What are her core beliefs she returns to to avoid just blowing in the wind on a day to day basis? If you are going to be a bloody difficult woman you have to be bloody good at it, tell a minister they are moving in a reshuffle they move, not tell you otherwise and stay put. You have to Turn up to leader debates and tough grillings, and stamp yourself and your policy on it. If you don’t lead like that, you are not leading at all. Her ministers are unsackable becuase she’s too weak to sack or even control them now.
    Whatever their persuasion on Brexit, whatever wing of the party they are from, this week the tory MPs will vote on the fact this government needs to negoatiate robustly with the EU now, strong on detail and sense of direction, which they all know they won’t get if May limps on. For the nations sake They cannot vote negatively this time just to block someone else, they need to crown a PM whose grasp of detail is priministerial standard.

    It has to be Gove. When PM next week, Gove will move/sack Hammond. To extinguish memory of May’s “Turd Way” and get down to proper, robust Brexit negotiations with EU requires brexiteer PM and Chancellor. Regardless what he said of it over the weekend, Gove and his cabinet will be happy todrop May’s “Turd Way” into nearest bin the moment EU publicly reject it.

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,683
    Et tu Brute?
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,896

    rcs1000 said:

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."
    Fair play to Davis, at least one of the Brexiteers has some balls.

    May’s toast. What finished her is the bloody difficult woman tag. I lived through the seventies and eighties, and she ain’t no Thatcher. May is nothing. The embarrassing way she and her team have tried to,spin her as tough leader over the weekend just brings home to everyone of her MPs that she is not PM materiel, hasn’t been from the moment she got the job. When did she demonstrate any command of detail? Three key elections in three years, what campaigning immpression did she leave on them? What are her core beliefs she returns to to avoid just blowing in the wind on a day to day basis? If you are going to be a bloody difficult woman you have to be bloody good at it, tell a minister they are moving in a reshuffle they move, not tell you otherwise and stay put. You have to Turn up to leader debates and tough grillings, and stamp yourself and your policy on it. If you don’t lead like that, you are not leading at all. Her ministers are unsackable becuase she’s too weak to sack or even control them now.
    Whatever their persuasion on Brexit, whatever wing of the party they are from, this week the tory MPs will vote on the fact this government needs to negoatiate robustly with the EU now, strong on detail and sense of direction, which they all know they won’t get if May limps on. For the nations sake They cannot vote negatively this time just to block someone else, they need to crown a PM whose grasp of detail is priministerial standard.

    It has to be Gove. When PM next week, Gove will move/sack Hammond. To extinguish memory of May’s “Turd Way” and get down to proper, robust Brexit negotiations with EU requires brexiteer PM and Chancellor. Regardless what he said of it over the weekend, Gove and his cabinet will be happy todrop May’s “Turd Way” into nearest bin the moment EU publicly reject it.

    You do not understand the EU. May, for all her faults, is the best on offer for a deal that will not destroy the UK economy. There is no majority in the H/C or the country for a hard Brexit.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886
    edited July 9

    So minister with a track record of resigning resigns after nearly two years in a critical job where he has made f'all progress?

    The arch-Brexiteers have an ideological sickness, and do not care how much the country gets damaged by their quest for purity.

    And it's a alright for them, and for people like SeanT fpt; they're rich and insulated from the chaos. It's the plebs who will get hurt by their sickness. And the plebs don't matter.

    A government led by an ERGer - and especially JRM - will lead to a Corbynite government. But the ERGers don't care, for they're no different to Corbyn: ideological purity is vital (or at least purity in their heads; the contradictions don't matter).

    Completely wrong.

    You simply fail to understand that most Tory voters according to the polls would back hard Brexit and that Rees Mogg is now arguably the most popular Tory alternative to May. Indeed as Survation on Sunday confirmed Rees Mogg has the highest number of voters saying they would be more likely to vote Tory under his leadership than any other Tory.

    I am afraid left liberals are as ignorant of Mogg's appeal to traditional Tories as sone conservatives have been ignorant about Corbyn's appeal to traditional Labour voters.

    You also completely and arrogantly assume 'the plebs' as you call them are opposed to hard Brexit when polling evidence is not working class voters support hard Brexit as it is the only way to guarantee the tougher immigration controls they thought they were voting for when they voted Leave
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,476

    rcs1000 said:

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."
    Fair play to Davis, at least one of the Brexiteers has some balls.

    May’s toast. What finished her is the bloody difficult woman tag. I lived through the seventies and eighties, and she ain’t no Thatcher. May is nothing. The embarrassing way she and her team have tried to,spin her as tough leader over the weekend just brings home to everyone of her MPs that she is not PM materiel, hasn’t been from the moment she got the job. When did she demonstrate any command of detail? Three key elections in three years, what campaigning immpression did she leave on them? What are her core beliefs she returns to to avoid just blowing in the wind on a day to day basis? If you are going to be a bloody difficult woman you have to be bloody good at it, tell a minister they are moving in a reshuffle they move, not tell you otherwise and stay put. You have to Turn up to leader debates and tough grillings, and stamp yourself and your policy on it. If you don’t lead like that, you are not leading at all. Her ministers are unsackable becuase she’s too weak to sack or even control them now.
    Whatever their persuasion on Brexit, whatever wing of the party they are from, this week the tory MPs will vote on the fact this government needs to negoatiate robustly with the EU now, strong on detail and sense of direction, which they all know they won’t get if May limps on. For the nations sake They cannot vote negatively this time just to block someone else, they need to crown a PM whose grasp of detail is priministerial standard.

    It has to be Gove. When PM next week, Gove will move/sack Hammond. To extinguish memory of May’s “Turd Way” and get down to proper, robust Brexit negotiations with EU requires brexiteer PM and Chancellor. Regardless what he said of it over the weekend, Gove and his cabinet will be happy todrop May’s “Turd Way” into nearest bin the moment EU publicly reject it.

    After what happened in 2016, I doubt Tory MPs trust Gove to such an extent they’d back him to be PM.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886

    rcs1000 said:

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."
    Fair play to Davis, at least one of the Brexiteers has some balls.

    May’s toast. What finished her is the bloody difficult woman tag. I lived through the seventies and eighties, and she ain’t no Thatcher. May is nothing. The embarrassing way she and her team have tried to,spin her as tough leader over the weekend just brings home to everyone of her MPs that she is not PM materiel, hasn’t been from the moment she got the job. When did she demonstrate any command of detail? Three key elections in three years, what campaigning immpression did she leave on them? What are her core beliefs she returns to to avoid just blowing in the wind on a day to day basis? If you are going to be a bloody difficult woman you have to be bloody good at it, tell a minister they are moving in a reshuffle they move, not tell you otherwise and stay put. You have to Turn up to leader debates and tough grillings, and stamp yourself and your policy on it. If you don’t lead like that, you are not leading at all. Her ministers are unsackable becuase she’s too weak to sack or even control them now.
    Whatever their persuasion on Brexit, whatever wing of the party they are from, this week the tory MPs will vote on the fact this government needs to negoatiate robustly with the EU now, strong on detail and sense of direction, which they all know they won’t get if May limps on. For the nations sake They cannot vote negatively this time just to block someone else, they need to crown a PM whose grasp of detail is priministerial standard.

    It has to be Gove. When PM next week, Gove will move/sack Hammond. To extinguish memory of May’s “Turd Way” and get down to proper, robust Brexit negotiations with EU requires brexiteer PM and Chancellor. Regardless what he said of it over the weekend, Gove and his cabinet will be happy todrop May’s “Turd Way” into nearest bin the moment EU publicly reject it.

    Gove has backed virtually every aspect of May's plan, Davis, Mogg even Javid on migration it seems showed more opposition. If May is replaced by a harder line pro Brexit candidate it will likely now be by one of those 3 not Gove, to most Tory Leavers Gove is now Judas
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886
    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."
    Agreed. I suspect the ultras may now go for it and the resultant instability and disunity could easily lead to a GE. A JC Government becomes the most likely outcome. Hello Venezuela. Never has the role of moderate Labour MPs been more important. A disaster for the UK now beckons.
    There was no general election for almost 2 years when Thatcher went or almost 3 years when Blair went.

    No poll currently puts Corbyn anywhere near a majority even if there is one. If he does become PM it will only be by being propped up by minor parties and at the mercy of his backbenchers.

    Of course Mexico now has joined Venezuela and Greece with populist leftists heading their government so it is not something completely unusual at the moment
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,896
    HYUFD said:

    So minister with a track record of resigning resigns after nearly two years in a critical job where he has made f'all progress?

    The arch-Brexiteers have an ideological sickness, and do not care how much the country gets damaged by their quest for purity.

    And it's a alright for them, and for people like SeanT fpt; they're rich and insulated from the chaos. It's the plebs who will get hurt by their sickness. And the plebs don't matter.

    A government led by an ERGer - and especially JRM - will lead to a Corbynite government. But the ERGers don't care, for they're no different to Corbyn: ideological purity is vital (or at least purity in their heads; the contradictions don't matter).

    Completely wrong.

    You simply fail to understand that most Tory voters according to the polls would back hard Brexit and that Rees Mogg is now arguably the most popular Tory alternative to May. Indeed as Survation on Sunday confirmed Rees Mogg has the highest number of voters saying they would be more likely to vote Tory under his leadership than any other Tory.

    I am afraid left liberals are as ignorant of Mogg's appeal to traditional Tories as sone conservatives have been ignorant about Corbyn's appeal to traditional Labour voters.

    You also completely and arrogantly assume 'the plebs' as you call them are opposed to hard Brexit when polling evidence is not working class voters support hard Brexit as it is the only way to guarantee the tougher immigration controls they thought they were voting for when they voted Leave
    Delusional poty!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,071
    edited July 9



    After what happened in 2016, I doubt Tory MPs trust Gove to such an extent they’d back him to be PM.

    Boris wouldn't! I suspect the others would, but probably at the expense of losing the saner end of the cabinet. I do not see any evidence that Gove has the negotiating skills to pull off negotiations.

  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,499
    Wow, some actual political news on Brexit. Its been a while.
    Must be a lot of pressure on Boris, Gove et al. to jump ship too.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,896
    HYUFD said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."
    Agreed. I suspect the ultras may now go for it and the resultant instability and disunity could easily lead to a GE. A JC Government becomes the most likely outcome. Hello Venezuela. Never has the role of moderate Labour MPs been more important. A disaster for the UK now beckons.
    There was no general election for almost 2 years when Thatcher went or almost 3 years when Blair went.

    No poll currently puts Corbyn anywhere near a majority even if there is one. If he does become PM it will only be by being propped up by minor parties and at the mercy of his backbenchers.

    Of course Mexico now has joined Venezuela and Greece with populist leftists heading their government so it is not something completely unusual at the moment
    I'm afraid your reliance on sub-samples will not be sufficient to save a divided party from the wrath of the electorate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886
    rcs1000 said:

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."
    The EU were never going to give us a FTA based on May's Great Brexit Fudge.

    At the most Barnier will say May's plans are enough to confirm the transition period will begin once the UK leaves the EU but significant work still needs to be done on negotiating a FTA before it can be agreed which will need to be done during that transition and potentially stretching the transition period well beyond December 2020 if the UK will not leave the transition until a FTA has been agreed

    Canada took 7 years to agree a FTA with the EU, the EU has every incentive to stretch out FTA talks with the UK as long as possible post Brexit and leave the UK as a vassal state effectively within the EU during an endless 'transition period' in the meantime. For many if not most Brexiteers even WTO terms would eventually be better than that
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886
    edited July 9
    felix said:

    HYUFD said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."
    Agreed. I suspect the ultras may now go for it and the resultant instability and disunity could easily lead to a GE. A JC Government becomes the most likely outcome. Hello Venezuela. Never has the role of moderate Labour MPs been more important. A disaster for the UK now beckons.
    There was no general election for almost 2 years when Thatcher went or almost 3 years when Blair went.

    No poll currently puts Corbyn anywhere near a majority even if there is one. If he does become PM it will only be by being propped up by minor parties and at the mercy of his backbenchers.

    Of course Mexico now has joined Venezuela and Greece with populist leftists heading their government so it is not something completely unusual at the moment
    I'm afraid your reliance on sub-samples will not be sufficient to save a divided party from the wrath of the electorate.
    I am afraid you fail to understand the fury from the Leave voting majority of Tory voters if the Leave vote they voted for is not properly respected. By the time of the next general election we have to be out of the EU and have properly ended FOM and left the single market, even if May's Brexit Fudge enables a transition period until the end of 2020. If Tory Leave voters do not think Brexit has been properly delivered by their party (and about two thirds of Tory voters voted Leave) they will stay at home at the next general election or defect to UKIP or even Labour. Campaigning on Saturday in marginal Enfield Southgate, hardly Leave central, I had one normally Tory voter tell me he would stay at home at the next general election rather than vote for 'that woman' after in his words 'she has betrayed the Brexit vote'

    It is ignoring the reasons behind the Brexit vote that will hit the Tory vote hardest not respecting it, Corbyn will also face problems with his Remain voting base sooner or later accepted and defections to the LDs if he persists on indisting on leaving the single market as he will to try and keep marginal working class Labour Leave seats
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,013
    Lawks. One might even say lumme.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,440
    David Davis - Who Dares Whines.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 9,120
    A suggestion for Davis's resignation speech:

    I believe the Prime Minister is a cricketing enthusiast so I hope there will be no monopoly of cricketing metaphors. It’s rather like sending our opening batsmen to the crease only for them to find that before the first ball is bowled, their bats have been broken by the team captain. The time has come for others to consider their own response to the tragic conflict of loyalties with which I have myself wrestled for perhaps too long.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,038
    I've been reading the EEC accession treaty between the UK, Ireland and Denmark. It's available here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:11972B/TXT&from=EN

    Fact for the day: the Italian government is responsible for holding the UK's accession treaty.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,896
    HYUFD said:

    felix said:

    HYUFD said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Would she actually win a secret ballot though?

    I think that depends: how scared is JRM about Hammond ending up PM and how scared is Kenneth Clarke about JRM making it to Number 10? There are a lot of non ERG leavers who just want the whole thing over and done with, and fear that a leadership contest could end up jeopardizing the government and therefore Brexit itself.

    My personal view is that Davis has just given the EU an excuse to reject the deal. I.e.: "look the UK government doesn't even believe in it, come back when you've decided."


    No poll currently puts Corbyn anywhere near a majority even if there is one. If he does become PM it will only be by being propped up by minor parties and at the mercy of his backbenchers.

    Of course Mexico now has joined Venezuela and Greece with populist leftists heading their government so it is not something completely unusual at the moment
    I'm afraid your reliance on sub-samples will not be sufficient to save a divided party from the wrath of the electorate.
    I am afraid you fail to understand the fury from the Leave voting majority of Tory voters if the Leave vote they voted for is not properly respected. By the time of the next general election we have to be out of the EU and have properly ended FOM and left the single market, even if May's Brexit Fudge enables a transition period until the end of 2020. If Tory Leave voters do not think Brexit has been properly delivered by their party (and about two thirds of Tory voters voted Leave) they will stay at home at the next general election or defect to UKIP or even Labour. Campaigning on Saturday in marginal Enfield Southgate, hardly Leave central, I had one normally Tory voter tell me he would stay at home at the next general election rather than vote for 'that woman' after in his words 'she has betrayed the Brexit vote'

    It is ignoring the reasons behind the Brexit vote that will hit the Tory vote hardest not respecting it, Corbyn will also face problems with his Remain voting base sooner or later accepted and defections to the LDs if he persists on indisting on leaving the single market as he will to try and keep marginal working class Labour Leave seats
    Tories will lose more on the south than they gain elsewhere. I suspect the Scottish Tory MPs could also suffer. The Remain MPs will not vote for WTO or any kind of hard Brexit . It's over.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,038
    rcs1000 said:

    I've been reading the EEC accession treaty between the UK, Ireland and Denmark. It's available here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:11972B/TXT&from=EN

    Fact for the day: the Italian government is responsible for holding the UK's accession treaty.

    Fact for the day, part II.

    The British military base in Cyprus was explicitly excluded - in treaty - from the EEC. However, today it is the only British territory where the Euro is the official currency.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 21,938
    I'm afraid that the childish nonsense about forcing Ministers who don't like to get taxis and walk the driveway has rather come home to roost. May seems to surround herself with people who think the Thick of It is a documentary but who unfortunately have far less ability than Malcolm Tucker. It is the passive aggressive mindset of the Home Office brought to number 10.

    Davis is in himself no great loss to the government but failing to keep him on board does risk serious trouble for May. She made a serious mistake agreeing the back stop provisions last December. It was a gamble that a better overall deal would be found in time but it has been used to undermine our negotiating position yet further. The proposal she wants to put forward is deeply underwhelming but it may be a realistic assessment of what is possible based on her Head of State discussions at the Summit. Once again though, as with the failed election campaign, there is a chronic shortage of leadership and a total absence of inspiration.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,440
    rcs1000 said:

    I've been reading the EEC accession treaty between the UK, Ireland and Denmark. It's available here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:11972B/TXT&from=EN

    Fact for the day: the Italian government is responsible for holding the UK's accession treaty.

    Question for the day : What is larger - The number of Italian governments that have held the UK's accession treaty or the hours left before Boris resigns from the Cabinet ?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,589
    Strong and Stable.

    Sure.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,494
    So Davis is the one who has supposedly been hard at work negotiating a Brexit deal for the past two years and as soon as the government's official position comes out... he resigns.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 21,938
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I've been reading the EEC accession treaty between the UK, Ireland and Denmark. It's available here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:11972B/TXT&from=EN

    Fact for the day: the Italian government is responsible for holding the UK's accession treaty.

    Fact for the day, part II.

    The British military base in Cyprus was explicitly excluded - in treaty - from the EEC. However, today it is the only British territory where the Euro is the official currency.
    At that time Cyprus was not a part of the EU of course. I wonder if that was tidied up when they joined in 2004?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,494
    DavidL said:

    I'm afraid that the childish nonsense about forcing Ministers who don't like to get taxis and walk the driveway has rather come home to roost. May seems to surround herself with people who think the Thick of It is a documentary but who unfortunately have far less ability than Malcolm Tucker. It is the passive aggressive mindset of the Home Office brought to number 10.

    Davis is in himself no great loss to the government but failing to keep him on board does risk serious trouble for May. She made a serious mistake agreeing the back stop provisions last December. It was a gamble that a better overall deal would be found in time but it has been used to undermine our negotiating position yet further. The proposal she wants to put forward is deeply underwhelming but it may be a realistic assessment of what is possible based on her Head of State discussions at the Summit. Once again though, as with the failed election campaign, there is a chronic shortage of leadership and a total absence of inspiration.

    The situation in NI means that she could not have not agreed to the backstop.

    Even the token (presumably lefty) comedian on Pienaar yesterday realised that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,071

    Lawks. One might even say lumme.

    Are we really going to let the MPs go on holiday until after conference season in 10 days time. It does seem a bit casual.

    In other news: St Petersburg is a lovely city, very relaxed yet with good security around the Fanpark. A slight difficulty with Betfair exchange here in that it works, but seemingly only in Russian.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 654
    RoyalBlue said:

    There is no middle way. That is the whole problem. We stay a satrapy of the EU to protect our economy at the price of meaningful independence, or we go for freedom whatever the cost.

    +10

    TM's proposals are a route to the former - they won't be accepted as such by the EU, but are a stepping stone to becoming a vassal stare. It was a similar choice facing the UK in late June 1940, but the equivalent of Halifax is currently PM.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,071
    edited July 9
    TOPPING said:

    So Davis is the one who has supposedly been hard at work negotiating a Brexit deal for the past two years and as soon as the government's official position comes out... he resigns.

    He has obviously been on the sideslines since at least before the December Summit. Yesterday's man.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,440
    rcs1000 said:

    Fact for the day, part II.

    The British military base in Cyprus was explicitly excluded - in treaty - from the EEC. However, today it is the only British territory where the Euro is the official currency.

    Question for the day, part II - Which is larger - The number of British bases and facilities on Cyprus or the leadership signatures received by the Chairman of the 1922 Committee by lunchtime today ?

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 9,141
    tlg86 said:

    A suggestion for Davis's resignation speech:

    I believe the Prime Minister is a cricketing enthusiast so I hope there will be no monopoly of cricketing metaphors. It’s rather like sending our opening batsmen to the crease only for them to find that before the first ball is bowled, their bats have been broken by the team captain. The time has come for others to consider their own response to the tragic conflict of loyalties with which I have myself wrestled for perhaps too long.

    It is unfortunate that one of the most significant political speeches of our time makes no sense whatsoever. If the batsmen can tell their bats are broken before a ball has been bowled, then how on earth did they get as far as the crease or even the pavilion steps without noticing?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,151
    HYUFD said:

    So minister with a track record of resigning resigns after nearly two years in a critical job where he has made f'all progress?

    The arch-Brexiteers have an ideological sickness, and do not care how much the country gets damaged by their quest for purity.

    And it's a alright for them, and for people like SeanT fpt; they're rich and insulated from the chaos. It's the plebs who will get hurt by their sickness. And the plebs don't matter.

    A government led by an ERGer - and especially JRM - will lead to a Corbynite government. But the ERGers don't care, for they're no different to Corbyn: ideological purity is vital (or at least purity in their heads; the contradictions don't matter).

    Completely wrong.

    You simply fail to understand that most Tory voters according to the polls would back hard Brexit and that Rees Mogg is now arguably the most popular Tory alternative to May. Indeed as Survation on Sunday confirmed Rees Mogg has the highest number of voters saying they would be more likely to vote Tory under his leadership than any other Tory.

    I am afraid left liberals are as ignorant of Mogg's appeal to traditional Tories as sone conservatives have been ignorant about Corbyn's appeal to traditional Labour voters.

    You also completely and arrogantly assume 'the plebs' as you call them are opposed to hard Brexit when polling evidence is not working class voters support hard Brexit as it is the only way to guarantee the tougher immigration controls they thought they were voting for when they voted Leave
    Most Tory voters may back hard Brexit, and Rees Mogg may be the most popular Tory alternative to May (*), but that does not equate to beating Labour. A few weeks back I posted on here that I could never vote for a JRM-led party, and several other right-leaning posters agreed. He's a vote-loser, and he'll lose many Tory voters.

    IMV going for the 'traditional Tory' vote will lead to failure: the party needs to cast its net wider than that, and a core vote manifesto will lead to loss. JRM is the anti-Corbyn; they both massively turn off large segments of the electorate.

    As for your last paragraph: I'm not being arrogant, I'm pointing out that people who are largely insulated from the risks of hard Brexit screeching 'bring it on!' does not sound good to those who will suffer.

    (*) I;m dubious about both these clauses.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,038
    daodao said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    There is no middle way. That is the whole problem. We stay a satrapy of the EU to protect our economy at the price of meaningful independence, or we go for freedom whatever the cost.

    +10

    TM's proposals are a route to the former - they won't be accepted as such by the EU, but are a stepping stone to becoming a vassal stare. It was a similar choice facing the UK in late June 1940, but the equivalent of Halifax is currently PM.
    They're going to bomb us if we don't agree to their proposals?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,038
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I've been reading the EEC accession treaty between the UK, Ireland and Denmark. It's available here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:11972B/TXT&from=EN

    Fact for the day: the Italian government is responsible for holding the UK's accession treaty.

    Fact for the day, part II.

    The British military base in Cyprus was explicitly excluded - in treaty - from the EEC. However, today it is the only British territory where the Euro is the official currency.
    At that time Cyprus was not a part of the EU of course. I wonder if that was tidied up when they joined in 2004?
    The EU is nothing if not legalistic. I suspect it was tidied up.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 21,938
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm afraid that the childish nonsense about forcing Ministers who don't like to get taxis and walk the driveway has rather come home to roost. May seems to surround herself with people who think the Thick of It is a documentary but who unfortunately have far less ability than Malcolm Tucker. It is the passive aggressive mindset of the Home Office brought to number 10.

    Davis is in himself no great loss to the government but failing to keep him on board does risk serious trouble for May. She made a serious mistake agreeing the back stop provisions last December. It was a gamble that a better overall deal would be found in time but it has been used to undermine our negotiating position yet further. The proposal she wants to put forward is deeply underwhelming but it may be a realistic assessment of what is possible based on her Head of State discussions at the Summit. Once again though, as with the failed election campaign, there is a chronic shortage of leadership and a total absence of inspiration.

    The situation in NI means that she could not have not agreed to the backstop.

    Even the token (presumably lefty) comedian on Pienaar yesterday realised that.
    Why? Arlene Foster didn't want it. She was right. May signed up to a deal which she now says no British PM could ever sign up to. She basically gave up sovereignty to a chunk of the UK. It is so bad that we have to sign almost any deal with the EU to get around it. That is what the contortions of the proposal agreed at cabinet are about.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,499

    tlg86 said:

    A suggestion for Davis's resignation speech:

    I believe the Prime Minister is a cricketing enthusiast so I hope there will be no monopoly of cricketing metaphors. It’s rather like sending our opening batsmen to the crease only for them to find that before the first ball is bowled, their bats have been broken by the team captain. The time has come for others to consider their own response to the tragic conflict of loyalties with which I have myself wrestled for perhaps too long.

    It is unfortunate that one of the most significant political speeches of our time makes no sense whatsoever. If the batsmen can tell their bats are broken before a ball has been bowled, then how on earth did they get as far as the crease or even the pavilion steps without noticing?
    Yeah I never really understood that metaphor to be honest.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,551
    Note to Conservative party

    never chose a leader called David, they just flounce off when the pressure is on
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,760
    Foxy said:

    Lawks. One might even say lumme.

    Are we really going to let the MPs go on holiday until after conference season in 10 days time. It does seem a bit casual.

    In other news: St Petersburg is a lovely city, very relaxed yet with good security around the Fanpark. A slight difficulty with Betfair exchange here in that it works, but seemingly only in Russian.
    Glad you’re enjoying St Petersburg, yes Betfair in Cyrillic is rather annoying in those parts!

    If May goes this week we’re seriously looking at No Deal, in which case there’s going to be a lot of legislation to get through and it seems implausible that Parliament won’t have to be recalled early - if they even get a summer holiday at all.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,499


    Most Tory voters may back hard Brexit, and Rees Mogg may be the most popular Tory alternative to May (*),

    (*) I;m dubious about both these clauses.

    I too am dubious about those clauses.

    But I'd add that backing hard Brexit when it is a theoretical abstract concept of sovereignty and freedom, is very different to backing hard Brexit when people start losing their jobs...
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,892
    edited July 9
    DavidL said:

    I'm afraid that the childish nonsense about forcing Ministers who don't like to get taxis and walk the driveway has rather come home to roost. May seems to surround herself with people who think the Thick of It is a documentary but who unfortunately have far less ability than Malcolm Tucker. It is the passive aggressive mindset of the Home Office brought to number 10.

    Davis is in himself no great loss to the government but failing to keep him on board does risk serious trouble for May. She made a serious mistake agreeing the back stop provisions last December. It was a gamble that a better overall deal would be found in time but it has been used to undermine our negotiating position yet further. The proposal she wants to put forward is deeply underwhelming but it may be a realistic assessment of what is possible based on her Head of State discussions at the Summit. Once again though, as with the failed election campaign, there is a chronic shortage of leadership and a total absence of inspiration.

    I know you should generally assume stupidity over malice but I think I'd look at it the other way: The whole point of that exercise was to trigger resignations and get the leadership challenge over and done with, so that TMay will have a clear run to negotiate terms of surrender reach a win-win deal with her European partners that may infringe somewhat on her red lines.

    The thing about the taxis was almost set up as if to tempt a photo-op: Departing minister laces up his walking boots, hikes off stoically through the English countryside...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 21,938

    tlg86 said:

    A suggestion for Davis's resignation speech:

    I believe the Prime Minister is a cricketing enthusiast so I hope there will be no monopoly of cricketing metaphors. It’s rather like sending our opening batsmen to the crease only for them to find that before the first ball is bowled, their bats have been broken by the team captain. The time has come for others to consider their own response to the tragic conflict of loyalties with which I have myself wrestled for perhaps too long.

    It is unfortunate that one of the most significant political speeches of our time makes no sense whatsoever. If the batsmen can tell their bats are broken before a ball has been bowled, then how on earth did they get as far as the crease or even the pavilion steps without noticing?
    Maybe they paid as much attention to the detail as DD? Or Geoffrey Howe for that matter.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,499


    Most Tory voters may back hard Brexit, and Rees Mogg may be the most popular Tory alternative to May (*),

    (*) I;m dubious about both these clauses.

    I too am dubious about those clauses.

    But I'd add that backing hard Brexit when it is a theoretical abstract concept of sovereignty and freedom, is very different to backing hard Brexit when people start losing their jobs...
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 654
    rcs1000 said:

    daodao said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    There is no middle way. That is the whole problem. We stay a satrapy of the EU to protect our economy at the price of meaningful independence, or we go for freedom whatever the cost.

    +10

    TM's proposals are a route to the former - they won't be accepted as such by the EU, but are a stepping stone to becoming a vassal stare. It was a similar choice facing the UK in late June 1940, but the equivalent of Halifax is currently PM.
    They're going to bomb us if we don't agree to their proposals?
    Not physically, but economically and politically, yes. The UK would be isolated and have to seek other friends in Europe, such as Russia.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,494
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm afraid that the childish nonsense about forcing Ministers who don't like to get taxis and walk the driveway has rather come home to roost. May seems to surround herself with people who think the Thick of It is a documentary but who unfortunately have far less ability than Malcolm Tucker. It is the passive aggressive mindset of the Home Office brought to number 10.

    Davis is in himself no great loss to the government but failing to keep him on board does risk serious trouble for May. She made a serious mistake agreeing the back stop provisions last December. It was a gamble that a better overall deal would be found in time but it has been used to undermine our negotiating position yet further. The proposal she wants to put forward is deeply underwhelming but it may be a realistic assessment of what is possible based on her Head of State discussions at the Summit. Once again though, as with the failed election campaign, there is a chronic shortage of leadership and a total absence of inspiration.

    The situation in NI means that she could not have not agreed to the backstop.

    Even the token (presumably lefty) comedian on Pienaar yesterday realised that.
    Why? Arlene Foster didn't want it. She was right. May signed up to a deal which she now says no British PM could ever sign up to. She basically gave up sovereignty to a chunk of the UK. It is so bad that we have to sign almost any deal with the EU to get around it. That is what the contortions of the proposal agreed at cabinet are about.
    Because NI is not some academic issue to be solved on paper with one theoretical course of action to say "sod it let's put up a border".

    It was a source of death and destruction for decades and remains hugely sensitive affecting people on both sides of the border and peace has been dearly won. No British PM could ever put that at risk.

    Does that mean we can never leave the EU? Of course not. But it does mean that the implications and restrictions on the type of leaving we would have been and now seemingly are doing should have been made clear.

    Oh wait I think that might have been mentioned but was deemed part of Project Fear.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 8,496
    Much easier to sit on the sidelines and criticise about outcomes than implement. Surprised it took so long.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,013
    Godwin’s law: tick.
    Spurious references to freedom: tick.

    Brexit must be going really badly when the hardcore are drawing so heavily on their most ridiculous tropes.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 21,938

    DavidL said:

    I'm afraid that the childish nonsense about forcing Ministers who don't like to get taxis and walk the driveway has rather come home to roost. May seems to surround herself with people who think the Thick of It is a documentary but who unfortunately have far less ability than Malcolm Tucker. It is the passive aggressive mindset of the Home Office brought to number 10.

    Davis is in himself no great loss to the government but failing to keep him on board does risk serious trouble for May. She made a serious mistake agreeing the back stop provisions last December. It was a gamble that a better overall deal would be found in time but it has been used to undermine our negotiating position yet further. The proposal she wants to put forward is deeply underwhelming but it may be a realistic assessment of what is possible based on her Head of State discussions at the Summit. Once again though, as with the failed election campaign, there is a chronic shortage of leadership and a total absence of inspiration.

    I know you should generally assume stupidity over malice but I think I'd look at it the other way: The whole point of that exercise was to trigger resignations and get the leadership challenge over and done with, so that TMay will have a clear run to negotiate terms of surrender reach a win-win deal with her European partners that may infringe somewhat on her red lines.

    The thing about the taxis was almost set up as if to tempt a photo-op: Departing minister laces up his walking boots, hikes off stoically through the English countryside...
    And that would have helped the government how, precisely? Stupidity doesn't even begin to cover it. Its macho posturing by the team that lost a majority by similar hubris and arrogance but who seemed to have learned nothing.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,013
    I wonder what the “traitor” count will be by the the end of the day.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,551
    daodao said:

    rcs1000 said:

    daodao said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    There is no middle way. That is the whole problem. We stay a satrapy of the EU to protect our economy at the price of meaningful independence, or we go for freedom whatever the cost.

    +10

    TM's proposals are a route to the former - they won't be accepted as such by the EU, but are a stepping stone to becoming a vassal stare. It was a similar choice facing the UK in late June 1940, but the equivalent of Halifax is currently PM.
    They're going to bomb us if we don't agree to their proposals?
    Not physically, but economically and politically, yes. The UK would be isolated and have to seek other friends in Europe, such as Russia.
    so it would be UK, Russia and USA against Germany ?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,126

    Note to Conservative party

    never chose a leader called David, they just flounce off when the pressure is on

    One called Davis is already known as a flouncer.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 21,938
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm afraid that the childish nonsense about forcing Ministers who don't like to get taxis and walk the driveway has rather come home to roost. May seems to surround herself with people who think the Thick of It is a documentary but who unfortunately have far less ability than Malcolm Tucker. It is the passive aggressive mindset of the Home Office brought to number 10.

    Davis is in himself no great loss to the government but failing to keep him on board does risk serious trouble for May. She made a serious mistake agreeing the back stop provisions last December. It was a gamble that a better overall deal would be found in time but it has been used to undermine our negotiating position yet further. The proposal she wants to put forward is deeply underwhelming but it may be a realistic assessment of what is possible based on her Head of State discussions at the Summit. Once again though, as with the failed election campaign, there is a chronic shortage of leadership and a total absence of inspiration.

    The situation in NI means that she could not have not agreed to the backstop.

    Even the token (presumably lefty) comedian on Pienaar yesterday realised that.
    Why? Arlene Foster didn't want it. She was right. May signed up to a deal which she now says no British PM could ever sign up to. She basically gave up sovereignty to a chunk of the UK. It is so bad that we have to sign almost any deal with the EU to get around it. That is what the contortions of the proposal agreed at cabinet are about.
    Because NI is not some academic issue to be solved on paper with one theoretical course of action to say "sod it let's put up a border".

    It was a source of death and destruction for decades and remains hugely sensitive affecting people on both sides of the border and peace has been dearly won. No British PM could ever put that at risk.

    Does that mean we can never leave the EU? Of course not. But it does mean that the implications and restrictions on the type of leaving we would have been and now seemingly are doing should have been made clear.

    Oh wait I think that might have been mentioned but was deemed part of Project Fear.
    So we are to be held to ransom by a bunch of gangsters and drug dealers who just might go back to the habit of setting off a bomb now and again?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 44,926
    Good morning, everyone.

    An excessively long summer. England doing well at a World Cup. David Davis actually resigns.

    Truly, the end times are upon us.

    F1: the British Grand Prix was really rather good. My post-race ramble, including thoughts on the Hamilton comments afterwards, is here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/07/uk-post-race-analysis-2018.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 44,926
    edited July 9
    Mr. L, quite. The line taken by some on Ireland is bizarre. "We must appease the terrorists, you know. We can't let the voters taken at the ballot box upset them."

    Edited extra bit: ahem. 'voters' = 'decision'. Bit sleepy.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,071
    edited July 9
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm afraid that the childish nonsense about forcing Ministers who don't like to get taxis and walk the driveway has rather come home to roost. May seems to surround herself with people who think the Thick of It is a documentary but who unfortunately have far less ability than Malcolm Tucker. It is the passive aggressive mindset of the Home Office brought to number 10.

    Davis is in himself no great loss to the government but failing to keep him on board does risk serious trouble for May. She made a serious mistake agreeing the back stop provisions last December. It was a gamble that a better overall deal would be found in time but it has been used to undermine our negotiating position yet further. The proposal she wants to put forward is deeply underwhelming but it may be a realistic assessment of what is possible based on her Head of State discussions at the Summit. Once again though, as with the failed election campaign, there is a chronic shortage of leadership and a total absence of inspiration.

    The situation in NI means that she could not have not agreed to the backstop.

    Even the token (presumably lefty) comedian on Pienaar yesterday realised that.
    Why? Arlene Foster didn't want it. She was right. May signed up to a deal which she now says no British PM could ever sign up to. She basically gave up sovereignty to a chunk of the UK. It is so bad that we have to sign almost any deal with the EU to get around it. That is what the contortions of the proposal agreed at cabinet are about.
    Because NI is not some academic issue to be solved on paper with one theoretical course of action to say "sod it let's put up a border".

    It was a source of death and destruction for decades and remains hugely sensitive affecting people on both sides of the border and peace has been dearly won. No British PM could ever put that at risk.

    Does that mean we can never leave the EU? Of course not. But it does mean that the implications and restrictions on the type of leaving we would have been and now seemingly are doing should have been made clear.

    Oh wait I think that might have been mentioned but was deemed part of Project Fear.
    The NI border is significant in itself, but also is the model for the Channel border. It is not something to be ignored or surely brushed away.

    The absence of preparation of WTO Brexit made Vassal State Brexit inevitable. It should have been the plan from day 1, with things being negotiated to transition to that state.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 2,033
    daodao said:

    The UK would be isolated and have to seek other friends in Europe, such as Russia.

    That was too long to fit on the side of a bus.

    I can see why Putin has such a throbbing hard on for Brexit. It's destroying Britain and damaging Europe.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,551
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm afraid that the childish nonsense about forcing Ministers who don't like to get taxis and walk the driveway has rather come home to roost. May seems to surround herself with people who think the Thick of It is a documentary but who unfortunately have far less ability than Malcolm Tucker. It is the passive aggressive mindset of the Home Office brought to number 10.

    Davis is in himself no great loss to the government but failing to keep him on board does risk serious trouble for May. She made a serious mistake agreeing the back stop provisions last December. It was a gamble that a better overall deal would be found in time but it has been used to undermine our negotiating position yet further. The proposal she wants to put forward is deeply underwhelming but it may be a realistic assessment of what is possible based on her Head of State discussions at the Summit. Once again though, as with the failed election campaign, there is a chronic shortage of leadership and a total absence of inspiration.

    The situation in NI means that she could not have not agreed to the backstop.

    Even the token (presumably lefty) comedian on Pienaar yesterday realised that.
    Why? Arlene Foster didn't want it. She was right. May signed up to a deal which she now says no British PM could ever sign up to. She basically gave up sovereignty to a chunk of the UK. It is so bad that we have to sign almost any deal with the EU to get around it. That is what the contortions of the proposal agreed at cabinet are about.
    Because NI is not some academic issue to be solved on paper with one theoretical course of action to say "sod it let's put up a border".

    It was a source of death and destruction for decades and remains hugely sensitive affecting people on both sides of the border and peace has been dearly won. No British PM could ever put that at risk.

    Does that mean we can never leave the EU? Of course not. But it does mean that the implications and restrictions on the type of leaving we would have been and now seemingly are doing should have been made clear.

    Oh wait I think that might have been mentioned but was deemed part of Project Fear.
    nonsense

    NI is simply a negotiating tactic from the EU. Practically they don't give a shit about the place.

    Inter Ireland trade is about £3.5 billion a year in goods that;s about a day's trading EU and UK.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,151
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm afraid that the childish nonsense about forcing Ministers who don't like to get taxis and walk the driveway has rather come home to roost. May seems to surround herself with people who think the Thick of It is a documentary but who unfortunately have far less ability than Malcolm Tucker. It is the passive aggressive mindset of the Home Office brought to number 10.

    Davis is in himself no great loss to the government but failing to keep him on board does risk serious trouble for May. She made a serious mistake agreeing the back stop provisions last December. It was a gamble that a better overall deal would be found in time but it has been used to undermine our negotiating position yet further. The proposal she wants to put forward is deeply underwhelming but it may be a realistic assessment of what is possible based on her Head of State discussions at the Summit. Once again though, as with the failed election campaign, there is a chronic shortage of leadership and a total absence of inspiration.

    I know you should generally assume stupidity over malice but I think I'd look at it the other way: The whole point of that exercise was to trigger resignations and get the leadership challenge over and done with, so that TMay will have a clear run to negotiate terms of surrender reach a win-win deal with her European partners that may infringe somewhat on her red lines.

    The thing about the taxis was almost set up as if to tempt a photo-op: Departing minister laces up his walking boots, hikes off stoically through the English countryside...
    And that would have helped the government how, precisely? Stupidity doesn't even begin to cover it. Its macho posturing by the team that lost a majority by similar hubris and arrogance but who seemed to have learned nothing.
    I have to disagree with you on this. All the government was saying was that actions have consequences; something many leavers (and especially hardcore Brexiteers) seem to forget.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,494
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm afraid that the childish nonsense about forcing Ministers who don't like to get taxis and walk the driveway has rather come home to roost. May seems to surround herself with people who think the Thick of It is a documentary but who unfortunately have far less ability than Malcolm Tucker. It is the passive aggressive mindset of the Home Office brought to number 10.

    Davis is in himself no great loss to the government but failing to keep him on board does risk serious trouble for May. She made a serious mistake agreeing the back stop provisions last December. It was a gamble that a better overall deal would be found in time but it has been used to undermine our negotiating position yet further. The proposal she wants to put forward is deeply underwhelming but it may be a realistic assessment of what is possible based on her Head of State discussions at the Summit. Once again though, as with the failed election campaign, there is a chronic shortage of leadership and a total absence of inspiration.

    The situation in NI means that she could not have not agreed to the backstop.

    Even the token (presumably lefty) comedian on Pienaar yesterday realised that.
    Why? Arlene Foster didn't want it. She was right. May signed up to a deal which she now says no British PM could ever sign up to. She basically gave up sovereignty to a chunk of the UK. It is so bad that we have to sign almost any deal with the EU to get around it. That is what the contortions of the proposal agreed at cabinet are about.
    Because NI is not some academic issue to be solved on paper with one theoretical course of action to say "sod it let's put up a border".

    It was a source of death and destruction for decades and remains hugely sensitive affecting people on both sides of the border and peace has been dearly won. No British PM could ever put that at risk.

    Does that mean we can never leave the EU? Of course not. But it does mean that the implications and restrictions on the type of leaving we would have been and now seemingly are doing should have been made clear.

    Oh wait I think that might have been mentioned but was deemed part of Project Fear.
    So we are to be held to ransom by a bunch of gangsters and drug dealers who just might go back to the habit of setting off a bomb now and again?
    As I said if the comedian on Pienaar gets it then so should people on informed political websites.

    If you think the desire for Irish unification ended with the GFA and that there is not a huge fear of a return to the bad old days, and really it is not just gangsters and drug dealers, then you have misunderstood or more likely not paid sufficient attention to the situation in Ireland.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,879
    The Minister for Winging It could wing it no more.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,892
    edited July 9
    DavidL said:


    And that would have helped the government how, precisely? Stupidity doesn't even begin to cover it. Its macho posturing by the team that lost a majority by similar hubris and arrogance but who seemed to have learned nothing.

    TMay needs a leadership election now because if her opponents can call one when she gets close to making an actually, real-world achievable deal, her opponents will it call it and win it. She's much better having the leadership election now, while her red lines are only slightly smudged, and haven't yet been entirely erased.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,151
    Dura_Ace said:

    daodao said:

    The UK would be isolated and have to seek other friends in Europe, such as Russia.

    That was too long to fit on the side of a bus.

    I can see why Putin has such a throbbing hard on for Brexit. It's destroying Britain and damaging Europe.
    +1

    And I see the lady has sadly died after somehow encountering Novochok. Many Brexiteers seem to have a hard-on for Putin and his 'macho posturing'. But who cares, as long as they're not the ones being poisoned ...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,762

    I wonder what the “traitor” count will be by the the end of the day.

    Do you May will go now ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,151

    The Minister for Winging It could wing it no more.

    Can any of Davis' fans tell me what he has achieved in his two years in the post?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 2,033
    They should try and get him to read aloud that article he wrote on ConHome.

    So be under no doubt: we can do deals with our trading partners, and we can do them quickly. I would expect the new Prime Minister on September 9th to immediately trigger a large round of global trade deals with all our most favoured trade partners. I would expect that the negotiation phase of most of them to be concluded within between 12 and 24 months.

    So within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. Trade deals with the US and China alone will give us a trade area almost twice the size of the EU, and of course we will also be seeking deals with Hong Kong, Canada, Australia, India, Japan, the UAE, Indonesia – and many others.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,499

    The Minister for Winging It could wing it no more.

    Can any of Davis' fans tell me what he has achieved in his two years in the post?
    Provided political cover for Theresa May?
    To be fair... he's only been working part-time by all accounts, so it's really only FTE of 1 year.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,151
    Off-topic:

    I was talking to another dad at a playgroup yesterday. He is a massive England fan, and has a rather difficult and sometimes risky relatively low-paid job. He said that he hopes we win the World Cup, but our success so far has made him feel proud of being English for the first time in ages.

    I wonder how much any WC success would affect political stances?

    (He has two England flags hanging out of his windows. In my street, just a couple of minutes walk away, a house has a french tricolore hanging off the door.)
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 7,137
    Obituary for David Davis. He was the only Leaver who tried to make Brexit work.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 10,248
    The Secretary of State for exiting

    Has
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 21,938

    DavidL said:


    And that would have helped the government how, precisely? Stupidity doesn't even begin to cover it. Its macho posturing by the team that lost a majority by similar hubris and arrogance but who seemed to have learned nothing.

    TMay needs a leadership election now because if her opponents can call one when she gets close to making an actually, real-world achievable deal, her opponents will it call it and win it. She's much better having the leadership election now, while her red lines are only slightly smudged, and haven't yet been entirely erased.
    What she needed to do was to work over the last 2 years to build a consensus within the government and ideally within the country about what we wanted our relationship with the EU to be post Brexit. What we have had instead is obscurity and procrastination, a total absence of leadership. She is playing with fire here, just as she did in 2017. She may yet get burned. Who could have confidence in her negotiating on our behalf? If there is a vote of confidence I think she will lose.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 998
    TOPPING said:



    Because NI is not some academic issue to be solved on paper with one theoretical course of action to say "sod it let's put up a border".

    It was a source of death and destruction for decades and remains hugely sensitive affecting people on both sides of the border and peace has been dearly won. No British PM could ever put that at risk.

    Does that mean we can never leave the EU? Of course not. But it does mean that the implications and restrictions on the type of leaving we would have been and now seemingly are doing should have been made clear.

    Oh wait I think that might have been mentioned but was deemed part of Project Fear.

    There is a perfectly easy solution to NI. Let me set it out. Then if any Remainer wants to address any objections in detail, I am happy to debate although the fact that the EU might not like the plan does not render it invalid:

    - UK and EU sign a CETA style FTA based, like every other FTA, on regulatory equivalence.
    - Deal is 100% quota and tariff free.
    - We use the three baskets approach - (a) where we have the same regulations as the EU, (b) where they are different but the joint board decides the are 'equivalent' (same as CETA) and (c) where they diverge. This only applies to goods.
    - UK agrees that all EU goods are permissible under UK rules now and in the future regardless of which basket they fall into. This completely solves the NI border problem northbound (and, incidentally, gives EU companies almost the same access to the UK as they get now, quite an attractive concession).
    - Southbound (and in fact at all UK/EU borders) goods in the (a) basket can be moved without notification. They are fully compliant and there are no tariffs or quotas. No need for inspection.
    - Goods in the (b) basket need to be notified in advance. At normal borders they are subject to normal customs clearance. As a concession, in NI these checks are done by audit on the companies making the declaration at locations away from the border (eg MaxFac). So for goods where the UK chooses to diverge somewhat from EU regulations, UK companies will incur some limited border friction but the EU companies will not.
    - It is illegal for (c) goods to be imported to the EU and this can be enforced by joint checks and very high penalties. Industries that make (c) goods will need to manufacture to EU standards just as they would in any normal trade relationship.
    - Rules of origin declarations will need to be incorporated into the above just as they already are for non-EU goods. Also, inspection bodies in the EU and UK are authorised to issue certification for each others standards to save time and money for everyone.

    Perfectly reasonable solution that respects the UK red lines and is not cherry picking, it is just an FTA with a streamlined customs regime for goods where regulations are already the same.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,013
    Pulpstar said:

    I wonder what the “traitor” count will be by the the end of the day.

    Do you May will go now ?
    I expect there will be a vote of confidence. She will win if a majority of the party think she will be replaced by a headbanger or someone beholden to headbangers. She will lose if a majority of the party think she can be replaced by someone moderately sane who can exercise authority. At present I think she’ll win.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 971
    Who’ll play David Davis in the Brexit mini-series?

    Barry Chuckle?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 21,938

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm afraid that the childish nonsense about forcing Ministers who don't like to get taxis and walk the driveway has rather come home to roost. May seems to surround herself with people who think the Thick of It is a documentary but who unfortunately have far less ability than Malcolm Tucker. It is the passive aggressive mindset of the Home Office brought to number 10.

    Davis is in himself no great loss to the government but failing to keep him on board does risk serious trouble for May. She made a serious mistake agreeing the back stop provisions last December. It was a gamble that a better overall deal would be found in time but it has been used to undermine our negotiating position yet further. The proposal she wants to put forward is deeply underwhelming but it may be a realistic assessment of what is possible based on her Head of State discussions at the Summit. Once again though, as with the failed election campaign, there is a chronic shortage of leadership and a total absence of inspiration.

    I know you should generally assume stupidity over malice but I think I'd look at it the other way: The whole point of that exercise was to trigger resignations and get the leadership challenge over and done with, so that TMay will have a clear run to negotiate terms of surrender reach a win-win deal with her European partners that may infringe somewhat on her red lines.

    The thing about the taxis was almost set up as if to tempt a photo-op: Departing minister laces up his walking boots, hikes off stoically through the English countryside...
    And that would have helped the government how, precisely? Stupidity doesn't even begin to cover it. Its macho posturing by the team that lost a majority by similar hubris and arrogance but who seemed to have learned nothing.
    I have to disagree with you on this. All the government was saying was that actions have consequences; something many leavers (and especially hardcore Brexiteers) seem to forget.
    Of course actions have consequences. And of course Cabinet Ministers should be bound by collective responsibility once a decision is made. And of course they should resign if they feel they can't do that. But threatening to take peoples' cars away before they get back to London? It was pathetic.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 2,093
    Does anybody really care about Brexit any more?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 21,938
    Anyway, Airdrie awaits. At least its a bit cooler today.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,892
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:


    And that would have helped the government how, precisely? Stupidity doesn't even begin to cover it. Its macho posturing by the team that lost a majority by similar hubris and arrogance but who seemed to have learned nothing.

    TMay needs a leadership election now because if her opponents can call one when she gets close to making an actually, real-world achievable deal, her opponents will it call it and win it. She's much better having the leadership election now, while her red lines are only slightly smudged, and haven't yet been entirely erased.
    What she needed to do was to work over the last 2 years to build a consensus within the government and ideally within the country about what we wanted our relationship with the EU to be post Brexit. What we have had instead is obscurity and procrastination, a total absence of leadership. She is playing with fire here, just as she did in 2017. She may yet get burned. Who could have confidence in her negotiating on our behalf? If there is a vote of confidence I think she will lose.
    Maybe she will lose, but if she can't win now, there's no way she could have won the leadership election that would have followed when the Conservative base were eventually confronted with the gap between what they want (and what she fought the election on) and what they can realistically get.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,755
    It is of course @Pulpstar who I feel most sorry for taking the wrong side of the bet.

    That £15 will be keenly felt.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 2,033

    Who’ll play David Davis in the Brexit mini-series?

    Barry Chuckle?

    Jim Broadbent can do a decent pudding faced simpleton when required.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 998
    DavidL said:


    Of course actions have consequences. And of course Cabinet Ministers should be bound by collective responsibility once a decision is made. And of course they should resign if they feel they can't do that. But threatening to take peoples' cars away before they get back to London? It was pathetic.

    It was one of the most stupid things I have ever seen in politics. At the end of the day Leavers won the referendum and believe that they have a right to a genuine Brexit. May was making a major move away from what she had previously agreed. Even if you feel as PM you have no choice but to embark on that route, you show respect for the people you know feel strongly and do not agree. Instead, she tried to ram the turd up their arses. As JRM said, it was a serious error of judgement.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 38,358
    Can't believe this wasn't the header...

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,879
    FF43 said:

    Obituary for David Davis. He was the only Leaver who tried to make Brexit work.

    Like every other prominent Brexiteer Davis had years to learn how the EU works, about EU supply chains, about how integrated goods and services are, about the complexities of the Irish border, about what drives FTAs, and so on. If he had he might have been able to develop a realistic plan for leaving. But like the rest of them he couldn’t be bothered to do it. It was too much like hard work. So, instead he thought we could do trade deals with individual EU member states, that the UK held all the negotiating aces, that in leaving we would keep all of the benefits of membership with none of the downsides and that German car manufacturers would save the day. Basically, like the rest of them, he was utterly clueless. He winged it for two years and has now flown away. But there is no escaping the responsibility he has for where we are now. Like the rest of those who never did the hard yards, he owns this and will answer to posterity for it.

  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 998
    Dura_Ace said:

    They should try and get him to read aloud that article he wrote on ConHome.

    So be under no doubt: we can do deals with our trading partners, and we can do them quickly. I would expect the new Prime Minister on September 9th to immediately trigger a large round of global trade deals with all our most favoured trade partners. I would expect that the negotiation phase of most of them to be concluded within between 12 and 24 months.

    So within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. Trade deals with the US and China alone will give us a trade area almost twice the size of the EU, and of course we will also be seeking deals with Hong Kong, Canada, Australia, India, Japan, the UAE, Indonesia – and many others.
    Perhaps you should listen to what DD said and what has already been reported. DD wanted to do trade deals immediately and was correct that it did not breach the duty of sincere co-operation because it related to a time when we would not be EU members. May, on the advice of the civil service, refused to do so to avoid upsetting the poor dears (and of course because it would have undermined their plans for eventual soft Brexit).

    It was perfectly possible to have done these deals; Remainers don't want them.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,755

    DavidL said:


    Of course actions have consequences. And of course Cabinet Ministers should be bound by collective responsibility once a decision is made. And of course they should resign if they feel they can't do that. But threatening to take peoples' cars away before they get back to London? It was pathetic.

    It was one of the most stupid things I have ever seen in politics. At the end of the day Leavers won the referendum and believe that they have a right to a genuine Brexit. May was making a major move away from what she had previously agreed. Even if you feel as PM you have no choice but to embark on that route, you show respect for the people you know feel strongly and do not agree. Instead, she tried to ram the turd up their arses. As JRM said, it was a serious error of judgement.
    Genuine Brexit?

    The referendum asked if we wanted to leave the EU, it said nothing about the future relationship with the EU.

    BINO is still Brexit.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 998

    FF43 said:

    Obituary for David Davis. He was the only Leaver who tried to make Brexit work.

    Like every other prominent Brexiteer Davis had years to learn how the EU works, about EU supply chains, about how integrated goods and services are, about the complexities of the Irish border, about what drives FTAs, and so on. If he had he might have been able to develop a realistic plan for leaving. But like the rest of them he couldn’t be bothered to do it. It was too much like hard work. So, instead he thought we could do trade deals with individual EU member states, that the UK held all the negotiating aces, that in leaving we would keep all of the benefits of membership with none of the downsides and that German car manufacturers would save the day. Basically, like the rest of them, he was utterly clueless. He winged it for two years and has now flown away. But there is no escaping the responsibility he has for where we are now. Like the rest of those who never did the hard yards, he owns this and will answer to posterity for it.

    More lies. DD said what he wanted - CETA plus plus plus. Perfectly achievable. May sabotaged this by agreeing to the NI backstop. Read DDs letter - he says quite clearly that he told her not to do it.

    As soon as the backstop was agreed, it was always going to be used as a tactic to force us away from CETA and towards vassal state bondage. I was 100% against the backstop the moment it was announced. I recall you were for May's Christmas deal.

    Stop blaming Leavers for the decisions of Remainers.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 21,552
    DavidL said:

    She basically gave up sovereignty to a chunk of the UK.

    May didn't do that - it was Thatcher, Major and Blair in the Anglo-Irish Agreement, Downing Street Declaration and Good Friday Agreement.

    May just happened to be the person in charge when the consequences of those decisions really impacted on Great Britain's options.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,755
    edited July 9
    Whatever the outcome this is going to end up as a right pickle for Ruth Davidson.

    Either she has to sell soft Brexit to her hard Brexit voter base or she gets a hard Brexite PM and has to tour the talk shows trying to justify her positions in a hard Brexiters party and what that means....

    Sorry, I entertained the thought that Ruth might actually face some tough questioning by political journalists there for a moment.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,889
    Well, if it wasn't so serious it'd all be very entertaining. We've not seen a soap opera like it in politics in living memory. It's a pity that it's being carried out at such a critical time. Presumably the EU will delay their response while waiting to see whether the British offer is actually viable within the Conservative Party, let alone the country.

    O/T: I was looking at the 7-day weather forecast arround the Thai caves - doesn't look too bad, with showers and the occasional thunnderstorm but no actual monsoon yet.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 38,358
    “Creating an exit plan that makes sense and which all reasonable people could unite around seems an almost insuperable task.” Win the referendum first, then decide what to do with your victory. “There is much to be gained by swerving the whole issue,” Mr Cummings wrote, because “the sheer complexity of leaving would involve endless questions of detail that cannot be answered in such a place even were it to be 20,000 pages long, and the longer it is the more errors are likely.” He had a point there.

    No wonder the Leavers decided that, actually, a blank piece of paper would suffice. The business of creating a plausible plan would be left to some other poor schmuck. The important thing was to Leave, the rest was mere detail.

    You are entitled to feel cheated by this, to feel that the country deserved something a little better than this cavalier insouciance. The Brexiteers have had two years to produce something workable and have come up with less than nothing. It turns out that making it up as you go along comes with some strings and costs attached.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e5a5edca-82db-11e8-ad58-ae35970199d3
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 998
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:


    Of course actions have consequences. And of course Cabinet Ministers should be bound by collective responsibility once a decision is made. And of course they should resign if they feel they can't do that. But threatening to take peoples' cars away before they get back to London? It was pathetic.

    It was one of the most stupid things I have ever seen in politics. At the end of the day Leavers won the referendum and believe that they have a right to a genuine Brexit. May was making a major move away from what she had previously agreed. Even if you feel as PM you have no choice but to embark on that route, you show respect for the people you know feel strongly and do not agree. Instead, she tried to ram the turd up their arses. As JRM said, it was a serious error of judgement.
    Genuine Brexit?

    The referendum asked if we wanted to leave the EU, it said nothing about the future relationship with the EU.

    BINO is still Brexit.
    Have the events of the last 48 hours not proven that this is clearly not the case, nor the view of the overwhelming majority of conservative members?
This discussion has been closed.