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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After delivering Brexit TMay’s follow-on objective will be blo

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited August 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After delivering Brexit TMay’s follow-on objective will be blocking Boris4PM

TMay indicates she would fight Johnson leadership bid & suggests that she wants to lead the party at the next election

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  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    First, like Mrs May!
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    Second followed by Boris.
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092


    2. Governing is mostly about 51:49 choices. Money has been very tight - due to the ususal fucked-up finances bequeathed by a Labour Govt. Except, this time they were monumentally fucked-up.

    Maybe the 49% choice of reduced spending on the disabled was the wrong choice. But that needs to be put against the 51% choice alternative spend. Maybe they used their limited money on children's services instead. Does it make me comfortable that you can come on here with the dreadful personal experience of your disabled parents? Of course not. But I don't know what choices had to be made. And I suspect, neither do you. Maybe there are kids still healthy - or even, alive - as a result of 51:49 choices that went against your parents.

    In neither of those two instances does it excuse staying amongst a party that drags its heels on addressing actual, point to it and gasp, living anti-semitism. Labou has become a nest of anti-semites, headed by a man either too stupid or too complicit to actually care. And yet you still hppily stuff leaflets through letterboxes for them...

    As I said, some might think that morally abhorrent.

    Has politics really reached such a state that right-wingers forget that raising taxes on the rich is even an option?
  • Options
    DayTripperDayTripper Posts: 129
    I still find it difficult to believe anybody thinks BoJo is a credible option as PM. I wrote this when he was first appointed as Foreign Secretary by Mrs May (God alone knows why) and nothing in his subsequent tenure led me to change my view at all.....

    There’s something that’s worrying us at the FO
    And just what to do we really don’t know
    Having managed to shed the Bullingdon mob
    From their tenure of one or two of the top jobs
    We suddenly find we’re now lumbered instead
    With another of ‘em – the tousled blond head
    The manspreading legs, the much rumpled suit,
    The constant impression he’s pissed as a newt,

    Yes, we’re stuck with Boris, the king of the zipwire
    Anxiety levels could not be much higher.

    His propensity for making things up on the hoof
    Which frequently bears no relation to truth
    Means we now have to spend all our hours in the day
    Trying to find an acceptable way
    To placate the feelings of envoys and consuls
    Though our words often seem to get stuck by our tonsils
    When having to think up such outrageous lies -
    We fear it could lead to our total demise.

    Yes, we’re stuck with Boris, the king of the zipwire
    The state of diplomacy is really dire.

    And on the horizon, our latest cloud is
    He’s managed to upset and piss off the Saudis
    Thus putting in jeopardy one of the few
    Countries still willing to keep buying new
    Tanks, bombs and fighters, backbone of our trade
    (Well, apart from the places where money is made
    By trading in equities, futures and bonds
    And other such financial magical wands).

    Yes, we’re stuck with Boris, the king of the zipwire
    Mrs May, use your power to hire and fire!
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983
    This has just come up on my FB page

    “As from the start of 2019, yes coincidentally just as the Brexit deadline looms, all EU member states will have to apply the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive (ATAD). It’s an EU law designed to tackle businesses shirking their tax-paying responsibilities.
    The likes of Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg and a host of wealthy Brexit donors are unlikely to warm to ATAD. It fact, it might be one of reasons why some Brexiteers are hell-bent on pushing for the hardest Brexit possible.”

    Should I suspect this to be true?
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340


    2. Governing is mostly about 51:49 choices. Money has been very tight - due to the ususal fucked-up finances bequeathed by a Labour Govt. Except, this time they were monumentally fucked-up.

    Maybe the 49% choice of reduced spending on the disabled was the wrong choice. But that needs to be put against the 51% choice alternative spend. Maybe they used their limited money on children's services instead. Does it make me comfortable that you can come on here with the dreadful personal experience of your disabled parents? Of course not. But I don't know what choices had to be made. And I suspect, neither do you. Maybe there are kids still healthy - or even, alive - as a result of 51:49 choices that went against your parents.

    In neither of those two instances does it excuse staying amongst a party that drags its heels on addressing actual, point to it and gasp, living anti-semitism. Labou has become a nest of anti-semites, headed by a man either too stupid or too complicit to actually care. And yet you still hppily stuff leaflets through letterboxes for them...

    As I said, some might think that morally abhorrent.

    Has politics really reached such a state that right-wingers forget that raising taxes on the rich is even an option?
    @MarqueeMark is so enjoying commenting on other people’s racism that he has forgotten his own complicity in the xenophobic lies of the Leave campaign.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754


    2. Governing is mostly about 51:49 choices. Money has been very tight - due to the ususal fucked-up finances bequeathed by a Labour Govt. Except, this time they were monumentally fucked-up.

    Maybe the 49% choice of reduced spending on the disabled was the wrong choice. But that needs to be put against the 51% choice alternative spend. Maybe they used their limited money on children's services instead. Does it make me comfortable that you can come on here with the dreadful personal experience of your disabled parents? Of course not. But I don't know what choices had to be made. And I suspect, neither do you. Maybe there are kids still healthy - or even, alive - as a result of 51:49 choices that went against your parents.

    In neither of those two instances does it excuse staying amongst a party that drags its heels on addressing actual, point to it and gasp, living anti-semitism. Labou has become a nest of anti-semites, headed by a man either too stupid or too complicit to actually care. And yet you still hppily stuff leaflets through letterboxes for them...

    As I said, some might think that morally abhorrent.

    Has politics really reached such a state that right-wingers forget that raising taxes on the rich is even an option?
    @MarqueeMark is so enjoying commenting on other people’s racism that he has forgotten his own complicity in the xenophobic lies of the Leave campaign.
    Zzzzzz

  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    This has just come up on my FB page

    “As from the start of 2019, yes coincidentally just as the Brexit deadline looms, all EU member states will have to apply the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive (ATAD). It’s an EU law designed to tackle businesses shirking their tax-paying responsibilities.
    The likes of Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg and a host of wealthy Brexit donors are unlikely to warm to ATAD. It fact, it might be one of reasons why some Brexiteers are hell-bent on pushing for the hardest Brexit possible.”

    Should I suspect this to be true?

    No. ATAD builds on the BEPS rules as set out by the OECD, which we have no plans to leave. Therefore it’s highly unlikely we would do anything particularly different post-Brexit.
  • Options
    TM has an amazing sense of duty and is as we know a bloody difficult woman

    The media and some on here were picking on her dancing yesterday but it has been opinioned that many would have been pleased she joined in the dancing and with the children. I do believe she suffers a degree of misoginism as well.

    As most posters know I am loyal to TM but not uncritical, especially after the move to prevent a 3% police pay rise, but when you look at the alternatives you shudder and that is without even contemplating that utter disaster that is Corbyn.

    I believe on the balance of probabilities she will not lead into the next GE but who knows, stranger things have happened
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    "the longer she survives the closer it gets to the next general election and the less the case for a potentially divisive leadership contest."

    100% wrong. Name me one MP (other than perhaps Theresa May - and that's not certain) who wants her to fight the next election as PM.

    Exhibit A - the 2017 election camapign.

    Exhibit B - the ridicule she got yesterday from dancing in South Africa 2018.

    The Tory party knows that she cannot be offered to the voters again. The only question is how Brexit goes. If badly, then the leader will be somebody to be beaten with sticks by the voters to atone for their lame implementation of the Brexit vote (maybe Phil Hammond, but on past performance, he won't be anywhere to be seen).

    If an acceptable Brexit, then thanks Theresa, but cheerio - the job with be worth having and hats will be thrown in the ring.
  • Options


    2. Governing is mostly about 51:49 choices. Money has been very tight - due to the ususal fucked-up finances bequeathed by a Labour Govt. Except, this time they were monumentally fucked-up.

    Maybe the 49% choice of reduced spending on the disabled was the wrong choice. But that needs to be put against the 51% choice alternative spend. Maybe they used their limited money on children's services instead. Does it make me comfortable that you can come on here with the dreadful personal experience of your disabled parents? Of course not. But I don't know what choices had to be made. And I suspect, neither do you. Maybe there are kids still healthy - or even, alive - as a result of 51:49 choices that went against your parents.

    In neither of those two instances does it excuse staying amongst a party that drags its heels on addressing actual, point to it and gasp, living anti-semitism. Labou has become a nest of anti-semites, headed by a man either too stupid or too complicit to actually care. And yet you still hppily stuff leaflets through letterboxes for them...

    As I said, some might think that morally abhorrent.

    Has politics really reached such a state that right-wingers forget that raising taxes on the rich is even an option?
    I hope not. It has to be an option but in a way that does not deter wealth creation
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    RoyalBlue said:

    This has just come up on my FB page

    “As from the start of 2019, yes coincidentally just as the Brexit deadline looms, all EU member states will have to apply the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive (ATAD). It’s an EU law designed to tackle businesses shirking their tax-paying responsibilities.
    The likes of Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg and a host of wealthy Brexit donors are unlikely to warm to ATAD. It fact, it might be one of reasons why some Brexiteers are hell-bent on pushing for the hardest Brexit possible.”

    Should I suspect this to be true?

    No. ATAD builds on the BEPS rules as set out by the OECD, which we have no plans to leave. Therefore it’s highly unlikely we would do anything particularly different post-Brexit.
    The EU countries most likely to suffer an adverse impact as a result of BEPS are Ireland, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. Even if we remained, the impact would be slight to positive. Facebook and Twitter do seem to be mechanisms for the ignorant to advertise their ignorance.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115


    2. Governing is mostly about 51:49 choices. Money has been very tight - due to the ususal fucked-up finances bequeathed by a Labour Govt. Except, this time they were monumentally fucked-up.

    Maybe the 49% choice of reduced spending on the disabled was the wrong choice. But that needs to be put against the 51% choice alternative spend. Maybe they used their limited money on children's services instead. Does it make me comfortable that you can come on here with the dreadful personal experience of your disabled parents? Of course not. But I don't know what choices had to be made. And I suspect, neither do you. Maybe there are kids still healthy - or even, alive - as a result of 51:49 choices that went against your parents.

    In neither of those two instances does it excuse staying amongst a party that drags its heels on addressing actual, point to it and gasp, living anti-semitism. Labou has become a nest of anti-semites, headed by a man either too stupid or too complicit to actually care. And yet you still hppily stuff leaflets through letterboxes for them...

    As I said, some might think that morally abhorrent.

    Has politics really reached such a state that right-wingers forget that raising taxes on the rich is even an option?
    @MarqueeMark is so enjoying commenting on other people’s racism that he has forgotten his own complicity in the xenophobic lies of the Leave campaign.
    Zzzzzz

    He's on ignore.....
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited August 2018

    "the longer she survives the closer it gets to the next general election and the less the case for a potentially divisive leadership contest."

    100% wrong. Name me one MP (other than perhaps Theresa May - and that's not certain) who wants her to fight the next election as PM.

    Exhibit A - the 2017 election camapign.

    Exhibit B - the ridicule she got yesterday from dancing in South Africa 2018.

    The Tory party knows that she cannot be offered to the voters again. The only question is how Brexit goes. If badly, then the leader will be somebody to be beaten with sticks by the voters to atone for their lame implementation of the Brexit vote (maybe Phil Hammond, but on past performance, he won't be anywhere to be seen).

    If an acceptable Brexit, then thanks Theresa, but cheerio - the job with be worth having and hats will be thrown in the ring.

    I’m sorry, but people criticising May for dancing can do one. She’s the PM of our country, not a Strictly contestant. It would have been far ruder not to try at all.

    The public don’t give 2 hoots about things like this. It’s only the second-raters in the media (and the unemployed on Twitter) who have to reduce everything to personalities because they haven’t got the brains to talk about the issues.
  • Options

    This has just come up on my FB page

    “As from the start of 2019, yes coincidentally just as the Brexit deadline looms, all EU member states will have to apply the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive (ATAD). It’s an EU law designed to tackle businesses shirking their tax-paying responsibilities.
    The likes of Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg and a host of wealthy Brexit donors are unlikely to warm to ATAD. It fact, it might be one of reasons why some Brexiteers are hell-bent on pushing for the hardest Brexit possible.”

    Should I suspect this to be true?

    Doubt it. They have been fiercely anti EU for decades and want out no matter the consequences

    Fortunately they are at the extremes and will not prevail

    BINO beckons and if TM pulls it off she will have created her own legacy by nullifying both extremes
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    "Given that there isn’t much of a happy precedent when it comes to prime ministers pre-emptively announcing their exit, perhaps insisting one is in it for ‘the long term’ is the least worst option.”

    This is spot on. She can't realistically say anything else. To pre-announce a resignation next summer, for example, would simply fire the gun for the election *now*, and give even more opportunity / incentive for candidates to play to the electorates rather than get on with the job (though 'getting on with the job' is, to some extent, an attractive trait to many MPs).

    However, I think the odds for a 2019 departure are about right. May might not want to go, and might want to stop Boris, but it's far from being within her control. Apart from anything else, if Boris has enough MPs to make it through to the members' vote - in theory, over 100; in practice, he could probably do it with 80+ - then he has more than enough to call a leadership vote and probably enough, given the non-Boris ERG members and others who just want shut of May before 2022, to ensure it's carried.

    But the main reason that 2019 is favourite, apart from May being under trouble and this year now being effectively out, barring something exceptional, is that it works Brexit-wise. After March (but realistically, during the summer) there is a window when the first round of negotiations is over but the talks on the final agreement haven't yet begun. Leave it past then and you interrupt those talks, as well as any post-brexit relaunch. There's something attractive about reinforcing a change of leader (which needs to happen anyway) with a fresh political phase.

    But Boris' star is waning. Perhaps he can rejuvenate it with some speeches and articles but the memory of his time at the Foreign Office, already being put in the shade by Hunt, will be remembered by MPs, many of whom will no doubt see him as an empty vessel making a lot of noise. After March, what is his attraction? Getting a better deal? it's unrealistic anyway and certainly with someone with no record of getting any deal at the FO.

    I think May will be ousted next year. Some as-yet-unknowable incident will provide the trigger but all the fundamentals are already in place. I don't expect Boris to win. he may well not even stand, again.
  • Options
    RoyalBlue said:

    "the longer she survives the closer it gets to the next general election and the less the case for a potentially divisive leadership contest."

    100% wrong. Name me one MP (other than perhaps Theresa May - and that's not certain) who wants her to fight the next election as PM.

    Exhibit A - the 2017 election camapign.

    Exhibit B - the ridicule she got yesterday from dancing in South Africa 2018.

    The Tory party knows that she cannot be offered to the voters again. The only question is how Brexit goes. If badly, then the leader will be somebody to be beaten with sticks by the voters to atone for their lame implementation of the Brexit vote (maybe Phil Hammond, but on past performance, he won't be anywhere to be seen).

    If an acceptable Brexit, then thanks Theresa, but cheerio - the job with be worth having and hats will be thrown in the ring.

    I’m sorry, but people criticising May for dancing can do one. She’s the PM of our country, not a Strictly contestant. It would have been far ruder not to try at all.

    The public don’t give 2 hoots about things like this. It’s only the second-raters in the media who have to reduce everything to personalities because they haven’t got the brains to talk about the issues.
    Well said
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115


    2. Governing is mostly about 51:49 choices. Money has been very tight - due to the ususal fucked-up finances bequeathed by a Labour Govt. Except, this time they were monumentally fucked-up.

    Maybe the 49% choice of reduced spending on the disabled was the wrong choice. But that needs to be put against the 51% choice alternative spend. Maybe they used their limited money on children's services instead. Does it make me comfortable that you can come on here with the dreadful personal experience of your disabled parents? Of course not. But I don't know what choices had to be made. And I suspect, neither do you. Maybe there are kids still healthy - or even, alive - as a result of 51:49 choices that went against your parents.

    In neither of those two instances does it excuse staying amongst a party that drags its heels on addressing actual, point to it and gasp, living anti-semitism. Labou has become a nest of anti-semites, headed by a man either too stupid or too complicit to actually care. And yet you still hppily stuff leaflets through letterboxes for them...

    As I said, some might think that morally abhorrent.

    Has politics really reached such a state that right-wingers forget that raising taxes on the rich is even an option?
    If it didn't reduce the overall tax take, you might have a point.

    Marquee Mark's Maxim: money flees taxation.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983

    This has just come up on my FB page

    “As from the start of 2019, yes coincidentally just as the Brexit deadline looms, all EU member states will have to apply the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive (ATAD). It’s an EU law designed to tackle businesses shirking their tax-paying responsibilities.
    The likes of Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg and a host of wealthy Brexit donors are unlikely to warm to ATAD. It fact, it might be one of reasons why some Brexiteers are hell-bent on pushing for the hardest Brexit possible.”

    Should I suspect this to be true?

    Doubt it. They have been fiercely anti EU for decades and want out no matter the consequences

    Fortunately they are at the extremes and will not prevail

    BINO beckons and if TM pulls it off she will have created her own legacy by nullifying both extremes
    That’s true about Farage. One of my family used to work close to him, although not for him, and actively dislikes him. “Nasty piece of work, bully" and such.
  • Options

    This has just come up on my FB page

    “As from the start of 2019, yes coincidentally just as the Brexit deadline looms, all EU member states will have to apply the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive (ATAD). It’s an EU law designed to tackle businesses shirking their tax-paying responsibilities.
    The likes of Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg and a host of wealthy Brexit donors are unlikely to warm to ATAD. It fact, it might be one of reasons why some Brexiteers are hell-bent on pushing for the hardest Brexit possible.”

    Should I suspect this to be true?

    Doubt it. They have been fiercely anti EU for decades and want out no matter the consequences

    Fortunately they are at the extremes and will not prevail

    BINO beckons and if TM pulls it off she will have created her own legacy by nullifying both extremes
    That’s true about Farage. One of my family used to work close to him, although not for him, and actively dislikes him. “Nasty piece of work, bully" and such.
    I am sure that is an accurate assessment of Farage by your family member
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    RoyalBlue said:

    "the longer she survives the closer it gets to the next general election and the less the case for a potentially divisive leadership contest."

    100% wrong. Name me one MP (other than perhaps Theresa May - and that's not certain) who wants her to fight the next election as PM.

    Exhibit A - the 2017 election camapign.

    Exhibit B - the ridicule she got yesterday from dancing in South Africa 2018.

    The Tory party knows that she cannot be offered to the voters again. The only question is how Brexit goes. If badly, then the leader will be somebody to be beaten with sticks by the voters to atone for their lame implementation of the Brexit vote (maybe Phil Hammond, but on past performance, he won't be anywhere to be seen).

    If an acceptable Brexit, then thanks Theresa, but cheerio - the job with be worth having and hats will be thrown in the ring.

    I’m sorry, but people criticising May for dancing can do one. She’s the PM of our country, not a Strictly contestant. It would have been far ruder not to try at all.

    The public don’t give 2 hoots about things like this. It’s only the second-raters in the media who have to reduce everything to personalities because they haven’t got the brains to talk about the issues.
    Dancegate -- Theresa May's handlers should not have exposed her to this. I know people will say it was spontaneous so she had no choice but what on earth was Britain's least comfortable with strangers politician doing at a school in the first place? It was not as if it had been stuffed with pre-vetted Tory activists like her 2017 campaign tour. Memo to CCHQ: David Cameron has left so stop arranging photo-ops for him.
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092


    If it didn't reduce the overall tax take, you might have a point.

    [Citation needed]
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    RoyalBlue said:

    "the longer she survives the closer it gets to the next general election and the less the case for a potentially divisive leadership contest."

    100% wrong. Name me one MP (other than perhaps Theresa May - and that's not certain) who wants her to fight the next election as PM.

    Exhibit A - the 2017 election camapign.

    Exhibit B - the ridicule she got yesterday from dancing in South Africa 2018.

    The Tory party knows that she cannot be offered to the voters again. The only question is how Brexit goes. If badly, then the leader will be somebody to be beaten with sticks by the voters to atone for their lame implementation of the Brexit vote (maybe Phil Hammond, but on past performance, he won't be anywhere to be seen).

    If an acceptable Brexit, then thanks Theresa, but cheerio - the job with be worth having and hats will be thrown in the ring.

    I’m sorry, but people criticising May for dancing can do one. She’s the PM of our country, not a Strictly contestant. It would have been far ruder not to try at all.

    The public don’t give 2 hoots about things like this. It’s only the second-raters in the media (and the unemployed on Twitter) who have to reduce everything to personalities because they haven’t got the brains to talk about the issues.
    Yes - but that is to ignore that we are in a world where Twitter is a thing. (Sadly - you know that I would allow people to have a Twitter account or the vote, but not both.)

    Trouble is, her reputation is bleeding profusely in a tank full of circling sharks....
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115


    If it didn't reduce the overall tax take, you might have a point.

    [Citation needed]
    Show me I'm wrong.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    edited August 2018
    1.39 is a big price for "No 2nd EU referendum". The Gov't isn't (that) thick, they realise they'll probably lose it.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.132100845

    I'm +64.80/-179 on this market currently, surprised the price isn't budging.
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    RoyalBlue said:

    "the longer she survives the closer it gets to the next general election and the less the case for a potentially divisive leadership contest."

    100% wrong. Name me one MP (other than perhaps Theresa May - and that's not certain) who wants her to fight the next election as PM.

    Exhibit A - the 2017 election camapign.

    Exhibit B - the ridicule she got yesterday from dancing in South Africa 2018.

    The Tory party knows that she cannot be offered to the voters again. The only question is how Brexit goes. If badly, then the leader will be somebody to be beaten with sticks by the voters to atone for their lame implementation of the Brexit vote (maybe Phil Hammond, but on past performance, he won't be anywhere to be seen).

    If an acceptable Brexit, then thanks Theresa, but cheerio - the job with be worth having and hats will be thrown in the ring.

    I’m sorry, but people criticising May for dancing can do one. She’s the PM of our country, not a Strictly contestant. It would have been far ruder not to try at all.

    The public don’t give 2 hoots about things like this. It’s only the second-raters in the media who have to reduce everything to personalities because they haven’t got the brains to talk about the issues.
    Dancegate -- Theresa May's handlers should not have exposed her to this. I know people will say it was spontaneous so she had no choice but what on earth was Britain's least comfortable with strangers politician doing at a school in the first place? It was not as if it had been stuffed with pre-vetted Tory activists like her 2017 campaign tour. Memo to CCHQ: David Cameron has left so stop arranging photo-ops for him.
    No they should not.

    What is it with these people who think everything should be controlled so to provide a perfect picture. She has received enormous support for joining in and many critics are under fire for having a go at her.

    And as for your ill informed comment as why she was at a school, she was annoucing 100 scholarship to UK universities for African children. Hope you are not going to have a go about that
  • Options
    Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    Before the thread goes too far, may we just remember that Boris totally blew it through incompetence and self doubt last time he had the chance to be PM.

    Do I understand from the overnight thread that:

    Hammond sidelined by civil servants during election = total cowardice from a weak man
    Davis sidelined by civil servants during Brexit talks = outrageous treatment of a brave soldier
  • Options
    The phrase “no longer if but when” to describe May’s departure is banal. All leaders go eventually, even those who are there for life.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Pulpstar, perhaps.

    If Labour vote against any deal there could be a sufficient rebellion amongst Conservatives to tip the scales against it.

    In that scenario, a second referendum becomes more likely than not.
  • Options

    RoyalBlue said:

    "the longer she survives the closer it gets to the next general election and the less the case for a potentially divisive leadership contest."

    100% wrong. Name me one MP (other than perhaps Theresa May - and that's not certain) who wants her to fight the next election as PM.

    Exhibit A - the 2017 election camapign.

    Exhibit B - the ridicule she got yesterday from dancing in South Africa 2018.

    The Tory party knows that she cannot be offered to the voters again. The only question is how Brexit goes. If badly, then the leader will be somebody to be beaten with sticks by the voters to atone for their lame implementation of the Brexit vote (maybe Phil Hammond, but on past performance, he won't be anywhere to be seen).

    If an acceptable Brexit, then thanks Theresa, but cheerio - the job with be worth having and hats will be thrown in the ring.

    I’m sorry, but people criticising May for dancing can do one. She’s the PM of our country, not a Strictly contestant. It would have been far ruder not to try at all.

    The public don’t give 2 hoots about things like this. It’s only the second-raters in the media (and the unemployed on Twitter) who have to reduce everything to personalities because they haven’t got the brains to talk about the issues.
    Yes - but that is to ignore that we are in a world where Twitter is a thing. (Sadly - you know that I would allow people to have a Twitter account or the vote, but not both.)

    Trouble is, her reputation is bleeding profusely in a tank full of circling sharks....
    Not sure that is the case.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Pulpstar said:

    1.39 is a big price for "No 2nd EU referendum". The Gov't isn't (that) thick, they realise they'll probably lose it.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.132100845

    When betting on the second referendum, you must factor in the possibility the (not thick) government might want to lose.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    RoyalBlue said:

    "the longer she survives the closer it gets to the next general election and the less the case for a potentially divisive leadership contest."

    100% wrong. Name me one MP (other than perhaps Theresa May - and that's not certain) who wants her to fight the next election as PM.

    Exhibit A - the 2017 election camapign.

    Exhibit B - the ridicule she got yesterday from dancing in South Africa 2018.

    The Tory party knows that she cannot be offered to the voters again. The only question is how Brexit goes. If badly, then the leader will be somebody to be beaten with sticks by the voters to atone for their lame implementation of the Brexit vote (maybe Phil Hammond, but on past performance, he won't be anywhere to be seen).

    If an acceptable Brexit, then thanks Theresa, but cheerio - the job with be worth having and hats will be thrown in the ring.

    I’m sorry, but people criticising May for dancing can do one. She’s the PM of our country, not a Strictly contestant. It would have been far ruder not to try at all.

    The public don’t give 2 hoots about things like this. It’s only the second-raters in the media (and the unemployed on Twitter) who have to reduce everything to personalities because they haven’t got the brains to talk about the issues.
    Yes - but that is to ignore that we are in a world where Twitter is a thing. (Sadly - you know that I would allow people to have a Twitter account or the vote, but not both.)

    Trouble is, her reputation is bleeding profusely in a tank full of circling sharks....
    I don’t think Twitter is at all significant in winning elections. Facebook is.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Mr. Pulpstar, perhaps.

    If Labour vote against any deal there could be a sufficient rebellion amongst Conservatives to tip the scales against it.

    In that scenario, a second referendum becomes more likely than not.

    I don't think it neccesarily does, also see Scotland for overestimation of the probbility of a second referendum.
  • Options

    The phrase “no longer if but when” to describe May’s departure is banal. All leaders go eventually, even those who are there for life.

    Great comment
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    The phrase “no longer if but when” to describe May’s departure is banal. All leaders go eventually, even those who are there for life.

    the best bet still remains who goes first May or Merkel.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,081
    The shortness of Diane James' reign as Kipper queen may have given the impression that she's not as dumbly narrow minded as the rest of the freak show, but nope, she's as stupidly awful as the rest (read the whole thread if you can be arsed).

    https://twitter.com/DianeJamesMEP/status/1034479972793106432
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Pulpstar said:

    1.39 is a big price for "No 2nd EU referendum". The Gov't isn't (that) thick, they realise they'll probably lose it.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.132100845

    When betting on the second referendum, you must factor in the possibility the (not thick) government might want to lose.
    Bunk, the Tories want to remain in power. Watch Curtice's analysis on the previous thread for the extent they're now depndant on ex UKIP votes.
  • Options


    2. Governing is mostly about 51:49 choices. Money has been very tight - due to the ususal fucked-up finances bequeathed by a Labour Govt. Except, this time they were monumentally fucked-up.

    Maybe the 49% choice of reduced spending on the disabled was the wrong choice. But that needs to be put against the 51% choice alternative spend. Maybe they used their limited money on children's services instead. Does it make me comfortable that you can come on here with the dreadful personal experience of your disabled parents? Of course not. But I don't know what choices had to be made. And I suspect, neither do you. Maybe there are kids still healthy - or even, alive - as a result of 51:49 choices that went against your parents.

    In neither of those two instances does it excuse staying amongst a party that drags its heels on addressing actual, point to it and gasp, living anti-semitism. Labou has become a nest of anti-semites, headed by a man either too stupid or too complicit to actually care. And yet you still hppily stuff leaflets through letterboxes for them...

    As I said, some might think that morally abhorrent.

    Has politics really reached such a state that right-wingers forget that raising taxes on the rich is even an option?
    But if you want to raise significant sums then you need to raise tax on everyone, not just the rich. One lesson the Tories will have taken from the disastrous 2017 campaign is that trying to be honest about tax rises in your manifesto is a real bad idea.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, what else was she supposed to say?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    RoyalBlue said:

    This has just come up on my FB page

    “As from the start of 2019, yes coincidentally just as the Brexit deadline looms, all EU member states will have to apply the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive (ATAD). It’s an EU law designed to tackle businesses shirking their tax-paying responsibilities.
    The likes of Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg and a host of wealthy Brexit donors are unlikely to warm to ATAD. It fact, it might be one of reasons why some Brexiteers are hell-bent on pushing for the hardest Brexit possible.”

    Should I suspect this to be true?

    No. ATAD builds on the BEPS rules as set out by the OECD, which we have no plans to leave. Therefore it’s highly unlikely we would do anything particularly different post-Brexit.
    Also the directive itself was adopted in 2016. Much of it, including the GAAR, was already a part of UK law and more of it has become so since. The provisions against interest deductions are interesting but so far as I can see it completely fails to address royalty or IP payments which make it pretty meaningless. The directive is here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.193.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:193:TOC

    It is remarkably succinct.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340


    2. Governing is mostly about 51:49 choices. Money has been very tight - due to the ususal fucked-up finances bequeathed by a Labour Govt. Except, this time they were monumentally fucked-up.

    Maybe the 49% choice of reduced spending on the disabled was the wrong choice. But that needs to be put against the 51% choice alternative spend. Maybe they used their limited money on children's services instead. Does it make me comfortable that you can come on here with the dreadful personal experience of your disabled parents? Of course not. But I don't know what choices had to be made. And I suspect, neither do you. Maybe there are kids still healthy - or even, alive - as a result of 51:49 choices that went against your parents.

    In neither of those two instances does it excuse staying amongst a party that drags its heels on addressing actual, point to it and gasp, living anti-semitism. Labou has become a nest of anti-semites, headed by a man either too stupid or too complicit to actually care. And yet you still hppily stuff leaflets through letterboxes for them...

    As I said, some might think that morally abhorrent.

    Has politics really reached such a state that right-wingers forget that raising taxes on the rich is even an option?
    @MarqueeMark is so enjoying commenting on other people’s racism that he has forgotten his own complicity in the xenophobic lies of the Leave campaign.
    Zzzzzz

    He's on ignore.....
    Hypocrites rarely appreciate their hypocrisy being pointed out.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,329
    Pulpstar said:

    1.39 is a big price for "No 2nd EU referendum". The Gov't isn't (that) thick, they realise they'll probably lose it.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.132100845

    I'm +64.80/-179 on this market currently, surprised the price isn't budging.

    Most people betting on this market are probably subject to confirmation bias.
  • Options


    If it didn't reduce the overall tax take, you might have a point.

    [Citation needed]
    Show me I'm wrong.

    The phrase “no longer if but when” to describe May’s departure is banal. All leaders go eventually, even those who are there for life.

    the best bet still remains who goes first May or Merkel.
    Exactly. The question is always when, never if.
  • Options

    On topic, what else was she supposed to say?

    Quite.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060
    edited August 2018
    Putin has been forced into a u-turn on raising the retriement age after intense opposition and plans will be watered down.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Pulpstar said:

    1.39 is a big price for "No 2nd EU referendum". The Gov't isn't (that) thick, they realise they'll probably lose it.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.132100845

    I'm +64.80/-179 on this market currently, surprised the price isn't budging.

    Yep.

    I also like UK to leave EU before May goes. 2.14 available on betfair and a very decent chance of a payout in March next year. No one seems to be talking about A50 extension.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.130939030

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754


    If it didn't reduce the overall tax take, you might have a point.

    [Citation needed]
    Show me I'm wrong.

    The phrase “no longer if but when” to describe May’s departure is banal. All leaders go eventually, even those who are there for life.

    the best bet still remains who goes first May or Merkel.
    Exactly. The question is always when, never if.
    neither is likely to contest the next election and both need to leave time for a successor to get comfortable in office
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060

    On topic, what else was she supposed to say?

    “Breakfast means breakfast and I’m having three Shredded Wheat.”
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    edited August 2018

    The phrase “no longer if but when” to describe May’s departure is banal. All leaders go eventually, even those who are there for life.

    We, well I think it's implied that they're talking about departure before the next election. Personally I find pedantry much more banal

    Edit: autocorrect
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    rkrkrk said:

    Pulpstar said:

    1.39 is a big price for "No 2nd EU referendum". The Gov't isn't (that) thick, they realise they'll probably lose it.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.132100845

    I'm +64.80/-179 on this market currently, surprised the price isn't budging.

    Yep.

    I also like UK to leave EU before May goes. 2.14 available on betfair and a very decent chance of a payout in March next year. No one seems to be talking about A50 extension.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.130939030

    Good spot ! You can even win on this with an A50 extension (Which instantly destroys the other market, UK to leave on 29-03-18).
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419


    2. Governing is mostly about 51:49 choices. Money has been very tight - due to the ususal fucked-up finances bequeathed by a Labour Govt. Except, this time they were monumentally fucked-up.

    Maybe the 49% choice of reduced spending on the disabled was the wrong choice. But that needs to be put against the 51% choice alternative spend. Maybe they used their limited money on children's services instead. Does it make me comfortable that you can come on here with the dreadful personal experience of your disabled parents? Of course not. But I don't know what choices had to be made. And I suspect, neither do you. Maybe there are kids still healthy - or even, alive - as a result of 51:49 choices that went against your parents.

    In neither of those two instances does it excuse staying amongst a party that drags its heels on addressing actual, point to it and gasp, living anti-semitism. Labou has become a nest of anti-semites, headed by a man either too stupid or too complicit to actually care. And yet you still hppily stuff leaflets through letterboxes for them...

    As I said, some might think that morally abhorrent.

    Has politics really reached such a state that right-wingers forget that raising taxes on the rich is even an option?
    Of course it's always an option. And it would remain an option were the top rate 50%, or 60%, or 83%, or 98% - though such rates would not necessarily raise more money.

    There can always be a case made for increasing government spend, particularly when hard cases are cited (which are often as much down to process as spending). That doesn't mean that the government should do it, nor that it shouldn't. it's a judgement, moral and political call in each case.
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    rkrkrk said:

    Pulpstar said:

    1.39 is a big price for "No 2nd EU referendum". The Gov't isn't (that) thick, they realise they'll probably lose it.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.132100845

    I'm +64.80/-179 on this market currently, surprised the price isn't budging.

    Yep.

    I also like UK to leave EU before May goes. 2.14 available on betfair and a very decent chance of a payout in March next year. No one seems to be talking about A50 extension.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.130939030

    Nice.

    Anyone else think there's value in betting on a 2020 departure for May? Still plenty of time before the next election
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983

    RoyalBlue said:

    "the longer she survives the closer it gets to the next general election and the less the case for a potentially divisive leadership contest."

    100% wrong. Name me one MP (other than perhaps Theresa May - and that's not certain) who wants her to fight the next election as PM.

    Exhibit A - the 2017 election camapign.

    Exhibit B - the ridicule she got yesterday from dancing in South Africa 2018.

    The Tory party knows that she cannot be offered to the voters again. The only question is how Brexit goes. If badly, then the leader will be somebody to be beaten with sticks by the voters to atone for their lame implementation of the Brexit vote (maybe Phil Hammond, but on past performance, he won't be anywhere to be seen).

    If an acceptable Brexit, then thanks Theresa, but cheerio - the job with be worth having and hats will be thrown in the ring.

    I’m sorry, but people criticising May for dancing can do one. She’s the PM of our country, not a Strictly contestant. It would have been far ruder not to try at all.

    The public don’t give 2 hoots about things like this. It’s only the second-raters in the media who have to reduce everything to personalities because they haven’t got the brains to talk about the issues.
    Dancegate -- Theresa May's handlers should not have exposed her to this. I know people will say it was spontaneous so she had no choice but what on earth was Britain's least comfortable with strangers politician doing at a school in the first place? It was not as if it had been stuffed with pre-vetted Tory activists like her 2017 campaign tour. Memo to CCHQ: David Cameron has left so stop arranging photo-ops for him.
    No they should not.

    What is it with these people who think everything should be controlled so to provide a perfect picture. She has received enormous support for joining in and many critics are under fire for having a go at her.

    And as for your ill informed comment as why she was at a school, she was annoucing 100 scholarship to UK universities for African children. Hope you are not going to have a go about that
    TBH, and I’m no May supporter, good on her for having a go. And just so long as she doesn’t include the scholarship students in the immigration figures!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2018
    Oh god he's at it again...

    'You don't think it's strange he hasn't sued me?' Elon Musk doubles down on 'pedo guy' claim about British diver who rescued kids from Thailand cave

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6108365/Elon-Musk-doubles-pedo-guy-claim-British-diver.html
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092


    2. Governing is mostly about 51:49 choices. Money has been very tight - due to the ususal fucked-up finances bequeathed by a Labour Govt. Except, this time they were monumentally fucked-up.

    Maybe the 49% choice of reduced spending on the disabled was the wrong choice. But that needs to be put against the 51% choice alternative spend. Maybe they used their limited money on children's services instead. Does it make me comfortable that you can come on here with the dreadful personal experience of your disabled parents? Of course not. But I don't know what choices had to be made. And I suspect, neither do you. Maybe there are kids still healthy - or even, alive - as a result of 51:49 choices that went against your parents.

    In neither of those two instances does it excuse staying amongst a party that drags its heels on addressing actual, point to it and gasp, living anti-semitism. Labou has become a nest of anti-semites, headed by a man either too stupid or too complicit to actually care. And yet you still hppily stuff leaflets through letterboxes for them...

    As I said, some might think that morally abhorrent.

    Has politics really reached such a state that right-wingers forget that raising taxes on the rich is even an option?
    Of course it's always an option. And it would remain an option were the top rate 50%, or 60%, or 83%, or 98% - though such rates would not necessarily raise more money.

    There can always be a case made for increasing government spend, particularly when hard cases are cited (which are often as much down to process as spending). That doesn't mean that the government should do it, nor that it shouldn't. it's a judgement, moral and political call in each case.
    Agreed. But when we talk about hard choices, we at least need to be honest about what those choices are!
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. 56, an invalid comparison. The civil service doesn't run Conservative Party election campaigns.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    rkrkrk said:

    Pulpstar said:

    1.39 is a big price for "No 2nd EU referendum". The Gov't isn't (that) thick, they realise they'll probably lose it.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.132100845

    I'm +64.80/-179 on this market currently, surprised the price isn't budging.

    Yep.

    I also like UK to leave EU before May goes. 2.14 available on betfair and a very decent chance of a payout in March next year. No one seems to be talking about A50 extension.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.130939030

    Nice.

    Anyone else think there's value in betting on a 2020 departure for May? Still plenty of time before the next election
    There might well be. My take is that she will want to go as soon as she is fairly sure her successor won’t be a disaster. That moment might not be in 2019.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    The phrase “no longer if but when” to describe May’s departure is banal. All leaders go eventually, even those who are there for life.

    No, it's a meaningful phrase in the context of the discussions of MPs. In that context answering 'if' in the negative doesn't mean that she should stay on Kim Il-Sung-like, as the Eternal Leader; it means 'there is no need to consider this discussion now'.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983

    Oh god he's at it again...

    'You don't think it's strange he hasn't sued me?' Elon Musk doubles down on 'pedo guy' claim about British diver who rescued kids from Thailand cave

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6108365/Elon-Musk-doubles-pedo-guy-claim-British-diver.html

    It’s in the Guardian, too. Trouble is, Musk lives in a country where, it appears, everyone sues everyone else at the drop of an imagined slight. Vernon Unsworth, the diver, doesn’t.
  • Options
    JohnRussellJohnRussell Posts: 297
    edited August 2018

    The shortness of Diane James' reign as Kipper queen may have given the impression that she's not as dumbly narrow minded as the rest of the freak show, but nope, she's as stupidly awful as the rest (read the whole thread if you can be arsed).

    https://twitter.com/DianeJamesMEP/status/1034479972793106432

    A long, increasingly pompous, argument between two people convinced they have the moral high ground not willing to give an inch. Who would want to waste their time reading that?
  • Options

    The phrase “no longer if but when” to describe May’s departure is banal. All leaders go eventually, even those who are there for life.

    We, well I think it's implied that they're talking about departure before the next election. Personally I find pedantry much more banal

    Edit: autocorrect
    It’s still a ‘when’ question then. Implicit questions irritate me.

    The pedantry may be an occupational hazard. Teaching Physics means I spend a lot of time trying to get students to pay attention to little things like units or powers of ten which, if ignored, mean getting the answer completely wrong.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,329
    My view is that May genuinely doesn’t want to go in 2019.

    She doesn’t want to be solely defined by Brexit (no laughing at the back there). She wants to follow through on the domestic platform she set out in July 2016.

    I think she wants to use 2019-2021 to seal the final Brexit arrangement, yes, but also help the strivers in the provinces and regions.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what she’s actually fighting with Hammond about.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Pulpstar said:

    1.39 is a big price for "No 2nd EU referendum". The Gov't isn't (that) thick, they realise they'll probably lose it.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.132100845

    When betting on the second referendum, you must factor in the possibility the (not thick) government might want to lose.
    I think you might need to explain your thinking on that one? if the government loses a second referendum, May goes, and it's not impossible the Tory government goes with it.
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    RoyalBlue said:

    "the longer she survives the closer it gets to the next general election and the less the case for a potentially divisive leadership contest."

    100% wrong. Name me one MP (other than perhaps Theresa May - and that's not certain) who wants her to fight the next election as PM.

    Exhibit A - the 2017 election camapign.

    Exhibit B - the ridicule she got yesterday from dancing in South Africa 2018.

    The Tory party knows that she cannot be offered to the voters again. The only question is how Brexit goes. If badly, then the leader will be somebody to be beaten with sticks by the voters to atone for their lame implementation of the Brexit vote (maybe Phil Hammond, but on past performance, he won't be anywhere to be seen).

    If an acceptable Brexit, then thanks Theresa, but cheerio - the job with be worth having and hats will be thrown in the ring.

    I’m sorry, but people criticising May for dancing can do one. She’s the PM of our country, not a Strictly contestant. It would have been far ruder not to try at all.

    The public don’t give 2 hoots about things like this. It’s only the second-raters in the media who have to reduce everything to personalities because they haven’t got the brains to talk about the issues.
    Dancegate -- Theresa May's handlers should not have exposed her to this. I know people will say it was spontaneous so she had no choice but what on earth was Britain's least comfortable with strangers politician doing at a school in the first place? It was not as if it had been stuffed with pre-vetted Tory activists like her 2017 campaign tour. Memo to CCHQ: David Cameron has left so stop arranging photo-ops for him.
    No they should not.

    What is it with these people who think everything should be controlled so to provide a perfect picture. She has received enormous support for joining in and many critics are under fire for having a go at her.

    And as for your ill informed comment as why she was at a school, she was annoucing 100 scholarship to UK universities for African children. Hope you are not going to have a go about that
    TBH, and I’m no May supporter, good on her for having a go. And just so long as she doesn’t include the scholarship students in the immigration figures!
    I doubt the dance has done her any harm in the public eye. I suppose it may have reminded some MPs what a disaster it would be if she led the party into the next election, but if they hadn't worked that out yet...
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    My view is that May genuinely doesn’t want to go in 2019.

    She doesn’t want to be solely defined by Brexit (no laughing at the back there). She wants to follow through on the domestic platform she set out in July 2016.

    I think she wants to use 2019-2021 to seal the final Brexit arrangement, yes, but also help the strivers in the provinces and regions.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what she’s actually fighting with Hammond about.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=Q6pYMzPEtKg
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    My view is that May genuinely doesn’t want to go in 2019.

    She doesn’t want to be solely defined by Brexit (no laughing at the back there). She wants to follow through on the domestic platform she set out in July 2016.

    I think she wants to use 2019-2021 to seal the final Brexit arrangement, yes, but also help the strivers in the provinces and regions.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what she’s actually fighting with Hammond about.

    I don’t think she’s that stupid. She is self-aware enough to know that for good or ill (ill, actually) her legacy is Brexit.

    You do draw attention to an important point though. Now that the Conservatives have completely trashed their brand on the altar of Brexit, what kind of prospectus will they put to the people at the next election? “Subject to Brexit” kills their credibility on every front that they have previously fought, whether protecting civic institutions that they have trashed though Brexit, being the party of business that through Brexit they have announced “fuck business” or looking after strivers who will be floundering because of Brexit. They look completely bereft.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586

    RoyalBlue said:

    "the longer she survives the closer it gets to the next general election and the less the case for a potentially divisive leadership contest."

    100% wrong. Name me one MP (other than perhaps Theresa May - and that's not certain) who wants her to fight the next election as PM.

    Exhibit A - the 2017 election camapign.

    Exhibit B - the ridicule she got yesterday from dancing in South Africa 2018.

    The Tory party knows that she cannot be offered to the voters again. The only question is how Brexit goes. If badly, then the leader will be somebody to be beaten with sticks by the voters to atone for their lame implementation of the Brexit vote (maybe Phil Hammond, but on past performance, he won't be anywhere to be seen).

    If an acceptable Brexit, then thanks Theresa, but cheerio - the job with be worth having and hats will be thrown in the ring.

    I’m sorry, but people criticising May for dancing can do one. She’s the PM of our country, not a Strictly contestant. It would have been far ruder not to try at all.

    The public don’t give 2 hoots about things like this. It’s only the second-raters in the media who have to reduce everything to personalities because they haven’t got the brains to talk about the issues.
    Dancegate -- Theresa May's handlers should not have exposed her to this. I know people will say it was spontaneous so she had no choice but what on earth was Britain's least comfortable with strangers politician doing at a school in the first place? It was not as if it had been stuffed with pre-vetted Tory activists like her 2017 campaign tour. Memo to CCHQ: David Cameron has left so stop arranging photo-ops for him.
    No they should not.

    What is it with these people who think everything should be controlled so to provide a perfect picture. She has received enormous support for joining in and many critics are under fire for having a go at her.

    And as for your ill informed comment as why she was at a school, she was annoucing 100 scholarship to UK universities for African children. Hope you are not going to have a go about that
    Quite.
    "...It was not as if it had been stuffed with pre-vetted Tory activists like her 2017 campaign tour..." And how did that turn out ?

    I am no fan of May, but some of the criticism of her is as self-contradictory as it is ridiculous.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,854


    Of course it's always an option. And it would remain an option were the top rate 50%, or 60%, or 83%, or 98% - though such rates would not necessarily raise more money.

    There can always be a case made for increasing government spend, particularly when hard cases are cited (which are often as much down to process as spending). That doesn't mean that the government should do it, nor that it shouldn't. it's a judgement, moral and political call in each case.

    The funding crisis in the provision of adult social care and the care of vulnerable children is real and is crippling efficient well-run Conservative councils. I think these Councils need to be adequately funded so we aren't seeing other Services run down to fill the gap.

    However, all I hear from the right-wing media is or are the usual siren calls that Hammond has "room" to cut taxes. In other words, all the hard graft reducing the deficit is going to be thrown away in another splurge of consumption and tax cutting. The other option, to pay down the debt and support local Councils, might not be as popular with the right but it's for me the correct thing to do.

    Why should a Conservative local councillor have to defend closing a library or reducing fire cover or cutting back on youth services or reducing Police numbers and budgets when we can all have a tax cut instead?
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    "the longer she survives the closer it gets to the next general election and the less the case for a potentially divisive leadership contest."

    100% wrong. Name me one MP (other than perhaps Theresa May - and that's not certain) who wants her to fight the next election as PM.

    Exhibit A - the 2017 election camapign.

    Exhibit B - the ridicule she got yesterday from dancing in South Africa 2018.

    The Tory party knows that she cannot be offered to the voters again. The only question is how Brexit goes. If badly, then the leader will be somebody to be beaten with sticks by the voters to atone for their lame implementation of the Brexit vote (maybe Phil Hammond, but on past performance, he won't be anywhere to be seen).

    If an acceptable Brexit, then thanks Theresa, but cheerio - the job with be worth having and hats will be thrown in the ring.

    I’m sorry, but people criticising May for dancing can do one. She’s the PM of our country, not a Strictly contestant. It would have been far ruder not to try at all.

    The public don’t give 2 hoots about things like this. It’s only the second-raters in the media (and the unemployed on Twitter) who have to reduce everything to personalities because they haven’t got the brains to talk about the issues.
    Yes - but that is to ignore that we are in a world where Twitter is a thing. (Sadly - you know that I would allow people to have a Twitter account or the vote, but not both.)

    Trouble is, her reputation is bleeding profusely in a tank full of circling sharks....
    I don’t think Twitter is at all significant in winning elections. Facebook is.
    Don't tell Mr Trump. In all this, there is an element of fighting the last war. Or rather simplistic analyses of the last campaign, often led by consultants whose future income depends on grabbing the credit and spreading the blame. 2015 was won by micro-targeting and Youtube. 2017 saw Labour almost snatch it, so the two-year-old conventional wisdom was discarded and suddenly Facebook was the place to be.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    Off topic - My colleague has checked hr husband's pension and somhow his forecast is 171.35, the rest of us all seem to be heading for 164.35

    Where is this extra £7 coming from xD ?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,081

    The shortness of Diane James' reign as Kipper queen may have given the impression that she's not as dumbly narrow minded as the rest of the freak show, but nope, she's as stupidly awful as the rest (read the whole thread if you can be arsed).

    https://twitter.com/DianeJamesMEP/status/1034479972793106432

    A long, increasingly pompous, argument between two people convinced they have the moral high ground not willing to give an inch. Who would want to waste their time reading that?
    You're on PB aren't you?
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    My view is that May genuinely doesn’t want to go in 2019.

    She doesn’t want to be solely defined by Brexit (no laughing at the back there). She wants to follow through on the domestic platform she set out in July 2016.

    I think she wants to use 2019-2021 to seal the final Brexit arrangement, yes, but also help the strivers in the provinces and regions.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what she’s actually fighting with Hammond about.

    I don’t think she’s that stupid. She is self-aware enough to know that for good or ill (ill, actually) her legacy is Brexit.

    You do draw attention to an important point though. Now that the Conservatives have completely trashed their brand on the altar of Brexit, what kind of prospectus will they put to the people at the next election? “Subject to Brexit” kills their credibility on every front that they have previously fought, whether protecting civic institutions that they have trashed though Brexit, being the party of business that through Brexit they have announced “fuck business” or looking after strivers who will be floundering because of Brexit. They look completely bereft.
    I think your argument needs some supporting evidence. The number of votes we won in 2017 suggests our brand was more popular on a net basis than in 2015. Gains significantly outweighed losses.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    RoyalBlue said:

    My view is that May genuinely doesn’t want to go in 2019.

    She doesn’t want to be solely defined by Brexit (no laughing at the back there). She wants to follow through on the domestic platform she set out in July 2016.

    I think she wants to use 2019-2021 to seal the final Brexit arrangement, yes, but also help the strivers in the provinces and regions.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what she’s actually fighting with Hammond about.

    I don’t think she’s that stupid. She is self-aware enough to know that for good or ill (ill, actually) her legacy is Brexit.

    You do draw attention to an important point though. Now that the Conservatives have completely trashed their brand on the altar of Brexit, what kind of prospectus will they put to the people at the next election? “Subject to Brexit” kills their credibility on every front that they have previously fought, whether protecting civic institutions that they have trashed though Brexit, being the party of business that through Brexit they have announced “fuck business” or looking after strivers who will be floundering because of Brexit. They look completely bereft.
    I think your argument needs some supporting evidence. The number of votes we won in 2017 suggests our brand was more popular on a net basis than in 2015. Gains significantly outweighed losses.
    2017 was called as a Brexit election. The Conservatives also faced Jeremy Corbyn. In 2022 neither of those conditions will necessarily apply. The Conservatives look out of ideas, out of competence and out of charm. Where are they going to fill these gaps from?
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    edited August 2018
    stodge said:


    Of course it's always an option. And it would remain an option were the top rate 50%, or 60%, or 83%, or 98% - though such rates would not necessarily raise more money.

    There can always be a case made for increasing government spend, particularly when hard cases are cited (which are often as much down to process as spending). That doesn't mean that the government should do it, nor that it shouldn't. it's a judgement, moral and political call in each case.

    The funding crisis in the provision of adult social care and the care of vulnerable children is real and is crippling efficient well-run Conservative councils. I think these Councils need to be adequately funded so we aren't seeing other Services run down to fill the gap.

    However, all I hear from the right-wing media is or are the usual siren calls that Hammond has "room" to cut taxes. In other words, all the hard graft reducing the deficit is going to be thrown away in another splurge of consumption and tax cutting. The other option, to pay down the debt and support local Councils, might not be as popular with the right but it's for me the correct thing to do.

    Why should a Conservative local councillor have to defend closing a library or reducing fire cover or cutting back on youth services or reducing Police numbers and budgets when we can all have a tax cut instead?
    I'd be very disappointed if the hard work done in closing the deficit were to be given away in tax cuts (which are politically of little value: people bank the cut, which is small at the margins anyway, and carry on).

    I agree it would be much more sensibly, both morally and politically, to increase spending on social care and the NHS at, say, CPI+2% through to 2022.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    My view is that May genuinely doesn’t want to go in 2019.

    She doesn’t want to be solely defined by Brexit (no laughing at the back there). She wants to follow through on the domestic platform she set out in July 2016.

    I think she wants to use 2019-2021 to seal the final Brexit arrangement, yes, but also help the strivers in the provinces and regions.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what she’s actually fighting with Hammond about.

    I don’t think she’s that stupid. She is self-aware enough to know that for good or ill (ill, actually) her legacy is Brexit.

    You do draw attention to an important point though. Now that the Conservatives have completely trashed their brand on the altar of Brexit, what kind of prospectus will they put to the people at the next election? “Subject to Brexit” kills their credibility on every front that they have previously fought, whether protecting civic institutions that they have trashed though Brexit, being the party of business that through Brexit they have announced “fuck business” or looking after strivers who will be floundering because of Brexit. They look completely bereft.
    That’s a good question.

    I suppose that a new leader, with enough chutzpah, could try and make mitigating the bad consequences of Brexit for the strivers, for business etc their policy. Would have to be a Remainer I suppose and it would take some cheek. But stranger things have happened.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Nigelb said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    I’m sorry, but people criticising May for dancing can do one. She’s the PM of our country, not a Strictly contestant. It would have been far ruder not to try at all.

    The public don’t give 2 hoots about things like this. It’s only the second-raters in the media who have to reduce everything to personalities because they haven’t got the brains to talk about the issues.

    Dancegate -- Theresa May's handlers should not have exposed her to this. I know people will say it was spontaneous so she had no choice but what on earth was Britain's least comfortable with strangers politician doing at a school in the first place? It was not as if it had been stuffed with pre-vetted Tory activists like her 2017 campaign tour. Memo to CCHQ: David Cameron has left so stop arranging photo-ops for him.
    No they should not.

    What is it with these people who think everything should be controlled so to provide a perfect picture. She has received enormous support for joining in and many critics are under fire for having a go at her.

    And as for your ill informed comment as why she was at a school, she was annoucing 100 scholarship to UK universities for African children. Hope you are not going to have a go about that
    Quite.
    "...It was not as if it had been stuffed with pre-vetted Tory activists like her 2017 campaign tour..." And how did that turn out ?

    I am no fan of May, but some of the criticism of her is as self-contradictory as it is ridiculous.
    I'm not criticising May. I'm criticising party and government handlers who arrange stunts for May as if Cameron were still PM, and likewise for the Labour team who tried to turn Brown into Blair. The new PMs were very different from their predecessors but the spin teams seemed oblivious. It is poor on two counts: first, it emphasises their weaknesses; more importantly it hides their strengths.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280


    If it didn't reduce the overall tax take, you might have a point.

    [Citation needed]
    An example would be CT. It was reduced to 20% but last year made a record contribution to the Exchequer.

    You can argue about the reasons (some banks exhausting their losses and coming back to pay, the lower rate disincentivising companies from exporting profits to other jurisdictions, the generally healthy state of our private sector) but the fact is that a reduction in rates has resulted in an increase in tax take.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    RoyalBlue said:

    My view is that May genuinely doesn’t want to go in 2019.

    She doesn’t want to be solely defined by Brexit (no laughing at the back there). She wants to follow through on the domestic platform she set out in July 2016.

    I think she wants to use 2019-2021 to seal the final Brexit arrangement, yes, but also help the strivers in the provinces and regions.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what she’s actually fighting with Hammond about.

    I don’t think she’s that stupid. She is self-aware enough to know that for good or ill (ill, actually) her legacy is Brexit.

    You do draw attention to an important point though. Now that the Conservatives have completely trashed their brand on the altar of Brexit, what kind of prospectus will they put to the people at the next election? “Subject to Brexit” kills their credibility on every front that they have previously fought, whether protecting civic institutions that they have trashed though Brexit, being the party of business that through Brexit they have announced “fuck business” or looking after strivers who will be floundering because of Brexit. They look completely bereft.
    I think your argument needs some supporting evidence. The number of votes we won in 2017 suggests our brand was more popular on a net basis than in 2015. Gains significantly outweighed losses.
    2017 was called as a Brexit election. The Conservatives also faced Jeremy Corbyn. In 2022 neither of those conditions will necessarily apply. The Conservatives look out of ideas, out of competence and out of charm. Where are they going to fill these gaps from?
    Corbyn will be Labour leader in 2022 unless his health gives out. The twin elections of 2016 and 2017 saw to that, antisemitism notwithstanding. (And if he's not, the next leader could well be in his mould: of the far left, untested in office, not elected on the basis of suitability to high office).

    The Conservatives "look out of ideas, out of competence and out of charm" because they are led by May and because they are struggling with, and divided by, Brexit. A new leader, and a return to domestic politics could do a lot to sort those defects.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    RoyalBlue said:

    My view is that May genuinely doesn’t want to go in 2019.

    She doesn’t want to be solely defined by Brexit (no laughing at the back there). She wants to follow through on the domestic platform she set out in July 2016.

    I think she wants to use 2019-2021 to seal the final Brexit arrangement, yes, but also help the strivers in the provinces and regions.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what she’s actually fighting with Hammond about.

    I don’t think she’s that stupid. She is self-aware enough to know that for good or ill (ill, actually) her legacy is Brexit.

    You do draw attention to an important point though. Now that the Conservatives have completely trashed their brand on the altar of Brexit, what kind of prospectus will they put to the people at the next election? “Subject to Brexit” kills their credibility on every front that they have previously fought, whether protecting civic institutions that they have trashed though Brexit, being the party of business that through Brexit they have announced “fuck business” or looking after strivers who will be floundering because of Brexit. They look completely bereft.
    I think your argument needs some supporting evidence. The number of votes we won in 2017 suggests our brand was more popular on a net basis than in 2015. Gains significantly outweighed losses.
    2017 was called as a Brexit election. The Conservatives also faced Jeremy Corbyn. In 2022 neither of those conditions will necessarily apply. The Conservatives look out of ideas, out of competence and out of charm. Where are they going to fill these gaps from?
    Unemployment at a 50-year low, record house-building, restoration of public sector pay rises, improving PISA rankings for English schools, record spending on the NHS, even an operational aircraft carrier...

    There will be a good story to tell. Assuming Brexit doesn’t cause the world to end, which it won’t.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,854

    I'd be very disappointed if the hard work done in closing the deficit were to be given away in tax cuts (which are politically of little value: people bank the cut, which is small at the margins anyway, and carry on).

    I agree it would be much more sensibly, both morally and politically, to increase spending on social care and the NHS at, say, CPI+2% through to 2022.

    To be more controversial, instead of pouring more money down the NHS drain, more funding should go to Councils to fund adult social care, the care of vulnerable children (where the real pressure is) and protecting other services.

    Councils like East Sussex aren't inefficient or wasteful but are the victims of the funding structure and demographic pressures outside their control.

    I also think the scandal of Police funding needs to be tackled and Boris's behaviour when in charge of the Met and overseeing the closing of stations and the reduction in Police numbers is for me the number one reason why he is unsuitable to be Prime Minister.

    I thought you Conservatives believed in law and order - apparently not.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    stodge said:


    Of course it's always an option. And it would remain an option were the top rate 50%, or 60%, or 83%, or 98% - though such rates would not necessarily raise more money.

    There can always be a case made for increasing government spend, particularly when hard cases are cited (which are often as much down to process as spending). That doesn't mean that the government should do it, nor that it shouldn't. it's a judgement, moral and political call in each case.

    The funding crisis in the provision of adult social care and the care of vulnerable children is real and is crippling efficient well-run Conservative councils. I think these Councils need to be adequately funded so we aren't seeing other Services run down to fill the gap.

    However, all I hear from the right-wing media is or are the usual siren calls that Hammond has "room" to cut taxes. In other words, all the hard graft reducing the deficit is going to be thrown away in another splurge of consumption and tax cutting. The other option, to pay down the debt and support local Councils, might not be as popular with the right but it's for me the correct thing to do.

    Why should a Conservative local councillor have to defend closing a library or reducing fire cover or cutting back on youth services or reducing Police numbers and budgets when we can all have a tax cut instead?
    I'd be very disappointed if the hard work done in closing the deficit were to be given away in tax cuts (which are politically of little value: people bank the cut, which is small at the margins anyway, and carry on).

    I agree it would be much more sensibly, both morally and politically, to increase spending on social care and the NHS at, say, CPI+2% through to 2022.
    How about reducing the personal allowance to £9000, and putting in a rate of -5% to that point ?
    It'd be a little extra to part time care workers and so forth that'd head back into the economy ?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,662
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,612
    I've just thought of a scenario where the Tories accidentally end up with BoJo as PM, and on his first day in the job he loses a motion of confidence in the Commons because most of his MPs don't want him.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,662
    On topic - as I posted yesterday when May's comments were first reported - MRDA.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150
    Pulpstar said:

    stodge said:


    Of course it's always an option. And it would remain an option were the top rate 50%, or 60%, or 83%, or 98% - though such rates would not necessarily raise more money.

    There can always be a case made for increasing government spend, particularly when hard cases are cited (which are often as much down to process as spending). That doesn't mean that the government should do it, nor that it shouldn't. it's a judgement, moral and political call in each case.

    The funding crisis in the provision of adult social care and the care of vulnerable children is real and is crippling efficient well-run Conservative councils. I think these Councils need to be adequately funded so we aren't seeing other Services run down to fill the gap.

    However, all I hear from the right-wing media is or are the usual siren calls that Hammond has "room" to cut taxes. In other words, all the hard graft reducing the deficit is going to be thrown away in another splurge of consumption and tax cutting. The other option, to pay down the debt and support local Councils, might not be as popular with the right but it's for me the correct thing to do.

    Why should a Conservative local councillor have to defend closing a library or reducing fire cover or cutting back on youth services or reducing Police numbers and budgets when we can all have a tax cut instead?
    I'd be very disappointed if the hard work done in closing the deficit were to be given away in tax cuts (which are politically of little value: people bank the cut, which is small at the margins anyway, and carry on).

    I agree it would be much more sensibly, both morally and politically, to increase spending on social care and the NHS at, say, CPI+2% through to 2022.
    How about reducing the personal allowance to £9000, and putting in a rate of -5% to that point ?
    It'd be a little extra to part time care workers and so forth that'd head back into the economy ?
    Negative income tax?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,612
    So Euro, Schengen, the works. Full-fat EU.

    While I would prefer that to the status quo, I doubt that they would win a referendum on that basis.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    stodge said:

    I'd be very disappointed if the hard work done in closing the deficit were to be given away in tax cuts (which are politically of little value: people bank the cut, which is small at the margins anyway, and carry on).

    I agree it would be much more sensibly, both morally and politically, to increase spending on social care and the NHS at, say, CPI+2% through to 2022.

    To be more controversial, instead of pouring more money down the NHS drain, more funding should go to Councils to fund adult social care, the care of vulnerable children (where the real pressure is) and protecting other services.

    Councils like East Sussex aren't inefficient or wasteful but are the victims of the funding structure and demographic pressures outside their control.

    I also think the scandal of Police funding needs to be tackled and Boris's behaviour when in charge of the Met and overseeing the closing of stations and the reduction in Police numbers is for me the number one reason why he is unsuitable to be Prime Minister.

    I thought you Conservatives believed in law and order - apparently not.
    Good ideas @Stodge. Social care, childrens services, including mental health, and housing would be my priorities over tax cuts.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150
    Cyclefree said:

    stodge said:

    I'd be very disappointed if the hard work done in closing the deficit were to be given away in tax cuts (which are politically of little value: people bank the cut, which is small at the margins anyway, and carry on).

    I agree it would be much more sensibly, both morally and politically, to increase spending on social care and the NHS at, say, CPI+2% through to 2022.

    To be more controversial, instead of pouring more money down the NHS drain, more funding should go to Councils to fund adult social care, the care of vulnerable children (where the real pressure is) and protecting other services.

    Councils like East Sussex aren't inefficient or wasteful but are the victims of the funding structure and demographic pressures outside their control.

    I also think the scandal of Police funding needs to be tackled and Boris's behaviour when in charge of the Met and overseeing the closing of stations and the reduction in Police numbers is for me the number one reason why he is unsuitable to be Prime Minister.

    I thought you Conservatives believed in law and order - apparently not.
    Good ideas @Stodge. Social care, childrens services, including mental health, and housing would be my priorities over tax cuts.
    You could have both if we're on the wrong side of the Laffer maximum.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Good economic news:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/08/28/aston-martin-gears-london-flotation/amp/

    We keep hearing how Brexit will wreck the car industry, but clearly Aston Martin’s investors don’t think it will depress their valuation too much.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Pulpstar said:

    stodge said:


    Of course it's always an option. And it would remain an option were the top rate 50%, or 60%, or 83%, or 98% - though such rates would not necessarily raise more money.

    There can always be a case made for increasing government spend, particularly when hard cases are cited (which are often as much down to process as spending). That doesn't mean that the government should do it, nor that it shouldn't. it's a judgement, moral and political call in each case.

    The funding crisis in the provision of adult social care and the care of vulnerable children is real and is crippling efficient well-run Conservative councils. I think these Councils need to be adequately funded so we aren't seeing other Services run down to fill the gap.

    However, all I hear from the right-wing media is or are the usual siren calls that Hammond has "room" to cut taxes. In other words, all the hard graft reducing the deficit is going to be thrown away in another splurge of consumption and tax cutting. The other option, to pay down the debt and support local Councils, might not be as popular with the right but it's for me the correct thing to do.

    Why should a Conservative local councillor have to defend closing a library or reducing fire cover or cutting back on youth services or reducing Police numbers and budgets when we can all have a tax cut instead?
    I'd be very disappointed if the hard work done in closing the deficit were to be given away in tax cuts (which are politically of little value: people bank the cut, which is small at the margins anyway, and carry on).

    I agree it would be much more sensibly, both morally and politically, to increase spending on social care and the NHS at, say, CPI+2% through to 2022.
    How about reducing the personal allowance to £9000, and putting in a rate of -5% to that point ?
    It'd be a little extra to part time care workers and so forth that'd head back into the economy ?
    That would mean an increase on taxes on those in the £9k+ bracket, and bringing everyone below that level into quite a complex tax system (on top of benefit forms they may have to complete). I'm not sure either would be a good thing. For low earners, I'd rather work through the benefits system rather than dragging them into direct taxes as well.

    I'd rather freeze the tax allowances and let fiscal drag do its thing. Given a free hand, I'd cut employees' NI by 2% and stick 2% on Income Tax at all levels but that'd be politically unacceptable.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    geoffw said:

    Pulpstar said:

    stodge said:


    Of course it's always an option. And it would remain an option were the top rate 50%, or 60%, or 83%, or 98% - though such rates would not necessarily raise more money.

    There can always be a case made for increasing government spend, particularly when hard cases are cited (which are often as much down to process as spending). That doesn't mean that the government should do it, nor that it shouldn't. it's a judgement, moral and political call in each case.

    The funding crisis in the provision of adult social care and the care of vulnerable children is real and is crippling efficient well-run Conservative councils. I think these Councils need to be adequately funded so we aren't seeing other Services run down to fill the gap.

    However, all I hear from the right-wing media is or are the usual siren calls that Hammond has "room" to cut taxes. In other words, all the hard graft reducing the deficit is going to be thrown away in another splurge of consumption and tax cutting. The other option, to pay down the debt and support local Councils, might not be as popular with the right but it's for me the correct thing to do.

    Why should a Conservative local councillor have to defend closing a library or reducing fire cover or cutting back on youth services or reducing Police numbers and budgets when we can all have a tax cut instead?
    I'd be very disappointed if the hard work done in closing the deficit were to be given away in tax cuts (which are politically of little value: people bank the cut, which is small at the margins anyway, and carry on).

    I agree it would be much more sensibly, both morally and politically, to increase spending on social care and the NHS at, say, CPI+2% through to 2022.
    How about reducing the personal allowance to £9000, and putting in a rate of -5% to that point ?
    It'd be a little extra to part time care workers and so forth that'd head back into the economy ?
    Negative income tax?
    Sorry not £9000, £9480 creates neutrality for existing earners over £11850.
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    JSpringJSpring Posts: 96
    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    My view is that May genuinely doesn’t want to go in 2019.

    She doesn’t want to be solely defined by Brexit (no laughing at the back there). She wants to follow through on the domestic platform she set out in July 2016.

    I think she wants to use 2019-2021 to seal the final Brexit arrangement, yes, but also help the strivers in the provinces and regions.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what she’s actually fighting with Hammond about.

    I don’t think she’s that stupid. She is self-aware enough to know that for good or ill (ill, actually) her legacy is Brexit.

    You do draw attention to an important point though. Now that the Conservatives have completely trashed their brand on the altar of Brexit, what kind of prospectus will they put to the people at the next election? “Subject to Brexit” kills their credibility on every front that they have previously fought, whether protecting civic institutions that they have trashed though Brexit, being the party of business that through Brexit they have announced “fuck business” or looking after strivers who will be floundering because of Brexit. They look completely bereft.
    I think your argument needs some supporting evidence. The number of votes we won in 2017 suggests our brand was more popular on a net basis than in 2015. Gains significantly outweighed losses.
    2017 was called as a Brexit election. The Conservatives also faced Jeremy Corbyn. In 2022 neither of those conditions will necessarily apply. The Conservatives look out of ideas, out of competence and out of charm. Where are they going to fill these gaps from?
    Unemployment at a 50-year low, record house-building, restoration of public sector pay rises, improving PISA rankings for English schools, record spending on the NHS, even an operational aircraft carrier...

    There will be a good story to tell. Assuming Brexit doesn’t cause the world to end, which it won’t.
    Things were going pretty well in 1997 too.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983
    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    My view is that May genuinely doesn’t want to go in 2019.

    She doesn’t want to be solely defined by Brexit (no laughing at the back there). She wants to follow through on the domestic platform she set out in July 2016.

    I think she wants to use 2019-2021 to seal the final Brexit arrangement, yes, but also help the strivers in the provinces and regions.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what she’s actually fighting with Hammond about.

    I don’t think she’s that stupid. She is self-aware enough to know that for good or ill (ill, actually) her legacy is Brexit.

    You do draw attention to an important point though. Now that the Conservatives have completely trashed their brand on the altar of Brexit, what kind of prospectus will they put to the people at the next election? “Subject to Brexit” kills their credibility on every front that they have previously fought, whether protecting civic institutions that they have trashed though Brexit, being the party of business that through Brexit they have announced “fuck business” or looking after strivers who will be floundering because of Brexit. They look completely bereft.
    I think your argument needs some supporting evidence. The number of votes we won in 2017 suggests our brand was more popular on a net basis than in 2015. Gains significantly outweighed losses.
    2017 was called as a Brexit election. The Conservatives also faced Jeremy Corbyn. In 2022 neither of those conditions will necessarily apply. The Conservatives look out of ideas, out of competence and out of charm. Where are they going to fill these gaps from?
    Unemployment at a 50-year low, record house-building, restoration of public sector pay rises, improving PISA rankings for English schools, record spending on the NHS, even an operational aircraft carrier...

    There will be a good story to tell. Assuming Brexit doesn’t cause the world to end, which it won’t.
    Assuming people’s actual experience bears that out. I don’t think even the ‘operational aircraft carrier' is whiolly true, is it?
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983
    RoyalBlue said:

    Good economic news:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/08/28/aston-martin-gears-london-flotation/amp/

    We keep hearing how Brexit will wreck the car industry, but clearly Aston Martin’s investors don’t think it will depress their valuation too much.

    Expensive toys for the rich. Jam for the rich, bread and scrape for everyone else.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    stodge said:

    I'd be very disappointed if the hard work done in closing the deficit were to be given away in tax cuts (which are politically of little value: people bank the cut, which is small at the margins anyway, and carry on).

    I agree it would be much more sensibly, both morally and politically, to increase spending on social care and the NHS at, say, CPI+2% through to 2022.

    To be more controversial, instead of pouring more money down the NHS drain, more funding should go to Councils to fund adult social care, the care of vulnerable children (where the real pressure is) and protecting other services.

    Councils like East Sussex aren't inefficient or wasteful but are the victims of the funding structure and demographic pressures outside their control.

    I also think the scandal of Police funding needs to be tackled and Boris's behaviour when in charge of the Met and overseeing the closing of stations and the reduction in Police numbers is for me the number one reason why he is unsuitable to be Prime Minister.

    I thought you Conservatives believed in law and order - apparently not.
    I agree that police numbers need increasing - though the police attitudes and self-confidence need reforming too, and backed up by politicians and, where necessary, changes in the law.

    As for social care, yes, I'd favour a large-scale reform to closely integrate care with health services. Getting the funding and management structures right however is essential. I agree with your inference that councils are probably in general more efficient than the NHS and the trick is to ensure that such efficiencies are retained, while enabling others that would come from ending, for example, the bed-blocking caused by budget protection by the receiving service. You'd also need to have a proper market for care, and to enable private providers to compete and supply.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited August 2018
    New centrist parties are like Nessie - one occasionally catches a glimpse through the political murk, but they're not actually real.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    What will the Tories be offering in 2022?

    Above all economic competence (note this is on a comparative as opposed to absolute scale). The argument would be that we have fixed the deficit but we still have a debt mountain to address. Don't let Labour go mad yet again.

    Potential problems are that we are now somewhat overdue a recession and there may be some short term disruption from Brexit (although I am betting the vast majority will not even notice). Labour may get their act together but that seems a more remote possibility.

    Secondly, recognition of the need to prioritise the additional money then coming available. For me the priorities are Social Care, housing, the NHS, student debt, defence in roughly that order. I see no room at all for tax cuts but that does not mean that the burden cannot be switched about a bit by, for example, requiring pensioners to pay NI and a post mortem capital based tax to help to pay for Social Care.

    Thirdly, consolidating the outcome of Brexit. What do we actually want to do with these newly acquired powers? So far Gove seems the only one who is even attempting to address that question. There is quite a lot of work to be done here. Also, once things have calmed down a bit, are there areas we would want to cooperate more closely with the EU?

    The key to success will be credible leadership that ideally can reach groups beyond the party's usual support. For me that should mean Sajid Javid as PM and Gove as Chancellor.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,612
    RoyalBlue said:

    Good economic news:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/08/28/aston-martin-gears-london-flotation/amp/

    We keep hearing how Brexit will wreck the car industry, but clearly Aston Martin’s investors don’t think it will depress their valuation too much.

    Their boss was on BBC News this morning. Said that a weaker pound would mean more sales in the UK, taking market from Ferrari. But possibly the reverse elsewhere in Europe, so swings and roundabouts.

    I think I'll bide my time before I decide between an Aston and a Ferrari.
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    stodge said:

    I'd be very disappointed if the hard work done in closing the deficit were to be given away in tax cuts (which are politically of little value: people bank the cut, which is small at the margins anyway, and carry on).

    I agree it would be much more sensibly, both morally and politically, to increase spending on social care and the NHS at, say, CPI+2% through to 2022.

    To be more controversial, instead of pouring more money down the NHS drain, more funding should go to Councils to fund adult social care, the care of vulnerable children (where the real pressure is) and protecting other services.

    Councils like East Sussex aren't inefficient or wasteful but are the victims of the funding structure and demographic pressures outside their control.

    I also think the scandal of Police funding needs to be tackled and Boris's behaviour when in charge of the Met and overseeing the closing of stations and the reduction in Police numbers is for me the number one reason why he is unsuitable to be Prime Minister.

    I thought you Conservatives believed in law and order - apparently not.
    Many Police Stations are obsolete all around the country.
    They are no longer required by members of the public.

    The ones required are to enable the police to function correctly..
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    RoyalBlue said:

    Good economic news:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/08/28/aston-martin-gears-london-flotation/amp/

    We keep hearing how Brexit will wreck the car industry, but clearly Aston Martin’s investors don’t think it will depress their valuation too much.

    Their boss was on BBC News this morning. Said that a weaker pound would mean more sales in the UK, taking market from Ferrari. But possibly the reverse elsewhere in Europe, so swings and roundabouts.

    I think I'll bide my time before I decide between an Aston and a Ferrari.
    Why choose? Invest your PB winnings and have both!
This discussion has been closed.