Smart tactical move by Leadsom to say current EU citizens can stay in UK. Shows a human side and good judgement.
May lacks a human side as demonstatred by saying she would use existing EU citzens in UK as a bargaining chip. Lots of established Conservative members will not welcome this threat by May in my view
Tell that to UK citizens living in the EU. Never mind the negotiations look at my virtue signalling.....
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making the sensible point that the residence status of EU citizens will depend on the outcome of the outcome of the negotiation are saying that a Romanian who has been here four months and is now working in a hand car-wash has acquired a lifetime right to live here? And that that should remain true even if our EU friends don't extend the same courtesy to Brits living in their countries? Have I got this interpretation of 'getting control of our borders' correct?
Considering most Brits abroad are idle oldies who are tight arses, and have a range of chronic conditions- shut the gates. Give me the Romanian car washer any day, any time, any place.
Leadsom has got it right on this one.
Nabavi- as much as I don't do personal comments here, you never fail to be extremely pompous.
Proof, if indeed proof is necessary that May has got this one right
Actually I am rooting for May. She is being too clever by half on this one I'm afraid.
Considering the Tory leadership contest is about my PM (apart from Renzi- a very good chap here)- my choice would be Theresa hands down. She might lack some charisma, but I have always rated her extremely highly.
And this shows that she has a bit of backbone when it comes to negotiating.
Paris and Frankfurt will be delighted that City workers from the EU are having their status put in question by the presumptive UK PM.
Their status was put in question by the vote to LEAVE.
It was only the REMAIN camp that suggested repatriation of EU citizens if LEAVE won. The LEAVE camp always said there would be no repatriation. Leadsom and Gove sticking with that statement.
Remainer May is threatening repatriation. The moment she lost the chance to be PM.
If Leave had even hinted at repatriation during the campaign, the Remainers would have gone berserk. It's a funny old world.
However, it's all a minor storm in a teacup. We've got the first round to look forward to tomorrow and Chilcott on Wednesday. I thought I'd be off PB on the 24th June, but the hits just keep on coming .
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making the sensible point that the residence status of EU citizens will depend on the outcome of the outcome of the negotiation are saying that a Romanian who has been here four months and is now working in a hand car-wash has acquired a lifetime right to live here? And that that should remain true even if our EU friends don't extend the same courtesy to Brits living in their countries? Have I got this interpretation of 'getting control of our borders' correct?
Considering most Brits abroad are idle oldies who are tight arses, and have a range of chronic conditions- shut the gates. Give me the Romanian car washer any day, any time, any place.
Leadsom has got it right on this one.
Nabavi- as much as I don't do personal comments here, you never fail to be extremely pompous.
Proof, if indeed proof is necessary that May has got this one right
Actually I am rooting for May. She is being too clever by half on this one I'm afraid.
Considering the Tory leadership contest is about my PM (apart from Renzi- a very good chap here)- my choice would be Theresa hands down. She might lack some charisma, but I have always rated her extremely highly.
And this shows that she has a bit of backbone when it comes to negotiating.
Paris and Frankfurt will be delighted that City workers from the EU are having their status put in question by the presumptive UK PM.
Why couldn't the UK just grant visas for financial workers?
There are loads of options,but currently the UK has not settle on a negotiating position so committing to one aspect limits future wiggle room. I speak as someone who is in a long term relationship with an EU citizen in this country, I am not worried as no one would be stupid enough to throw out current residents...apart from Farage.
May is the one threatening repatriation as a bargaining chip - Farage has not yet stooped that low. It just shows unbelievably poor judgement.
Unimpressed by Andrea's launch speech which despite being very short, she evidently had to read. She clearly doesn't possess Dave's talent for committing speeches, even very long ones, to memory. Consequently she didn't come across very well by comparison.
***Thinks*** We'll only miss him when he's gone ...... too true .
Boris is the best speech maker but he is not a candidate.
Smart tactical move by Leadsom to say current EU citizens can stay in UK. Shows a human side and good judgement.
May lacks a human side as demonstatred by saying she would use existing EU citzens in UK as a bargaining chip. Lots of established Conservative members will not welcome this threat by May in my view
Surely there is no hope of Leadsom getting her true believer plans through the house? I can't comment on the poll, perhaps we need to see a few more, trend is the friend etc.
How many genuine Tory europhile MPs are there? Ones that have long been on the record about their pro-euness, like Soubry or Clarke? If it's more than 30 they could cause real trouble to any brexit plans anyway (12 to knock out con majority, 7 to cover labour leavers, 8 to cover DUP).
Could depend on if the SNP abstain or not (they may do if it helps their independence cause, but I think they would probably still vote against)
SNP would vote against as Sturgeon won't want to lose credibility. There are probably 30+ Europhile Tories, Damian Green, Geo Osborne (!), David Cameron (!), Clare Perry etc etc
I expect that Conservatives who voted against Brexit now would lose the Whip.
If it was an EEA type solution from May I can imagine the threat of losing the whip being enough to keep them in line. But if it's a completely out option, with a leader preferred amongst members not MPs, would the europhile's still vote it through? Labour MPs may be useless at rebellions but the Tories generally have a better knack for it!
It's not in the gift of the House of Commons.
The outcome is the result of negotiation with the EU. Given the end of free movement, if the EU says no deal other than World Trade tariffs then the HoC can not vote for EFTA.
It is not up to the EU whether we join EFTA. It is up to the EFTA members. Since you are referring specifically to EFTA then bear in mind the EU has absolutely no say whatsoever over the makeup of EFTA.
But EFTA members (other than Lichtenstein) have to agree free movement.
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making the sensible point that the residence status of EU citizens will depend on the outcome of the outcome of the negotiation are saying that a Romanian who has been here four months and is now working in a hand car-wash has acquired a lifetime right to live here? And that that should remain true even if our EU friends don't extend the same courtesy to Brits living in their countries? Have I got this interpretation of 'getting control of our borders' correct?
Considering most Brits abroad are idle oldies who are tight arses, and have a range of chronic conditions- shut the gates.
1. There are around 1.2 million British born people living in another EU country, according to figures provided by the UN. Around 800,000 will be workers and their dependants. This is much less than the estimated 3.3 million people born in another EU country who now live in the UK, of which 2.1 million are working.
There are countless, countless more expat Brits, living in the black, who do not register themselves, who do not comply with local residency requirements and do not care, or try to learn the language, or want to pay the taxes and rely on their health cards to access services.
We blame immigrants for failing to play by the rules. Brits living abroad are often much worse.
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making the sensible point that the residence status of EU citizens will depend on the outcome of the outcome of the negotiation are saying that a Romanian who has been here four months and is now working in a hand car-wash has acquired a lifetime right to live here? And that that should remain true even if our EU friends don't extend the same courtesy to Brits living in their countries? Have I got this interpretation of 'getting control of our borders' correct?
Considering most Brits abroad are idle oldies who are tight arses, and have a range of chronic conditions- shut the gates. Give me the Romanian car washer any day, any time, any place.
Leadsom has got it right on this one.
Nabavi- as much as I don't do personal comments here, you never fail to be extremely pompous.
Proof, if indeed proof is necessary that May has got this one right
Actually I am rooting for May. She is being too clever by half on this one I'm afraid.
Considering the Tory leadership contest is about my PM (apart from Renzi- a very good chap here)- my choice would be Theresa hands down. She might lack some charisma, but I have always rated her extremely highly.
And this shows that she has a bit of backbone when it comes to negotiating.
Paris and Frankfurt will be delighted that City workers from the EU are having their status put in question by the presumptive UK PM.
Their status was put in question by the vote to LEAVE.
It was only the REMAIN camp that suggested repatriation of EU citizens if LEAVE won. The LEAVE camp always said there would be no repatriation. Leadsom and Gove sticking with that statement.
Remainer May is threatening repatriation. The moment she lost the chance to be PM.
She isn't committing to something, that is totally different. I think Leavers are projecting onto Remainers the their own lack of ability to forsee the unintended consequences of leaving. Leadsom wants to commit to a position on one of the biggest aspects of the referendum, before anyone has even started negotiating!
Looks like Brexit may actually push wages down in some areas. We are recruiting at the moment and have been told by agencies that we will have less competition for talent as so many companies have instituted hiring freezes since the referendum.
Hmmm seems like a lot of people are looking for reasons not to like him. Seen it before with other Tory ethnic minorities in the party. Tbh.
Also he was selected in an open primary so has more of a mandate than most Tories in safe seats, he changed his mind on Europe but so have other MP's the criticism has been there since he was selected and it is subtle racism. Deny it or not.
I've met him. He came sniffing around Wealden looking for a safe seat. A remarkable man in many ways, but, let's put it this way, you are 100% wrong.
OK happy to retract what I said then on Mak specifically.
Open question to the floor/particularly Theresa May supporters.
What do you make of her implied threat to use EU citizens already working here as pawns in her negotiations ?
If this had come from Andrea Leadsome today would you be taking the same view ?
Or did I mishear the news today ?
I doubt it's going to be an issue in any negotations. I think it will be cleared out of the way early on as agreed points before getting onto the tricky stuff. It sounds like electioneering to me
That post-Brexit residency status is an issue up for negotiation isn't electioneering or politicking or using people as pawns/bargaining chips, it is a simple statement of fact. Unless the EU and UK agree a deal regarding status ( which I'm sure they will) then their status will change. It's a direct and foreseeable consequence of voting Leave so it is pretty galling to see Leave politicians queuing up to bash someone else for the consequences of their advocacy.
But as a starting point I cannot believe we would consider deporting several million people who have been here legally for years. It's all very well being tough in the negotiations but if it's obvious you have no intention of following through on something it won't work.
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making the sensible point that the residence status of EU citizens will depend on the outcome of the outcome of the negotiation are saying that a Romanian who has been here four months and is now working in a hand car-wash has acquired a lifetime right to live here? And that that should remain true even if our EU friends don't extend the same courtesy to Brits living in their countries? Have I got this interpretation of 'getting control of our borders' correct?
Considering most Brits abroad are idle oldies who are tight arses, and have a range of chronic conditions- shut the gates. Give me the Romanian car washer any day, any time, any place.
Leadsom has got it right on this one.
Nabavi- as much as I don't do personal comments here, you never fail to be extremely pompous.
Proof, if indeed proof is necessary that May has got this one right
Actually I am rooting for May. She is being too clever by half on this one I'm afraid.
Considering the Tory leadership contest is about my PM (apart from Renzi- a very good chap here)- my choice would be Theresa hands down. She might lack some charisma, but I have always rated her extremely highly.
And this shows that she has a bit of backbone when it comes to negotiating.
Paris and Frankfurt will be delighted that City workers from the EU are having their status put in question by the presumptive UK PM.
Why couldn't the UK just grant visas for financial workers?
There are loads of options,but currently the UK has not settle on a negotiating position so committing to one aspect limits future wiggle room. I speak as someone who is in a long term relationship with an EU citizen in this country, I am not worried as no one would be stupid enough to throw out current residents...apart from Farage.
May is the one threatening repatriation as a bargaining chip - Farage has not yet stooped that low. It just shows unbelievably poor judgement.
But she isn't though, it is already are bargaining chip as it is an aspect of free movement within the EU that we will have to negotiate going forward. I cannot see anyone seriously trying to get anyone to leave, that is not on the table...but currently we have no table.
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making the sensible point that the residence status of EU citizens will depend on the outcome of the outcome of the negotiation are saying that a Romanian who has been here four months and is now working in a hand car-wash has acquired a lifetime right to live here? And that that should remain true even if our EU friends don't extend the same courtesy to Brits living in their countries? Have I got this interpretation of 'getting control of our borders' correct?
Considering most Brits abroad are idle oldies who are tight arses, and have a range of chronic conditions- shut the gates. Give me the Romanian car washer any day, any time, any place.
Leadsom has got it right on this one.
Nabavi- as much as I don't do personal comments here, you never fail to be extremely pompous.
Proof, if indeed proof is necessary that May has got this one right
Actually I am rooting for May. She is being too clever by half on this one I'm afraid.
Considering the Tory leadership contest is about my PM (apart from Renzi- a very good chap here)- my choice would be Theresa hands down. She might lack some charisma, but I have always rated her extremely highly.
And this shows that she has a bit of backbone when it comes to negotiating.
Paris and Frankfurt will be delighted that City workers from the EU are having their status put in question by the presumptive UK PM.
Why couldn't the UK just grant visas for financial workers?
There are loads of options,but currently the UK has not settle on a negotiating position so committing to one aspect limits future wiggle room. I speak as someone who is in a long term relationship with an EU citizen in this country, I am not worried as no one would be stupid enough to throw out current residents...apart from Farage.
May is the one threatening repatriation as a bargaining chip - Farage has not yet stooped that low. It just shows unbelievably poor judgement.
I really think May and Hammond have made a mistake with the right to remain issue. It's as though they and other Remainers are still fighting the war and are putting words into the mouths of their opponents. The reality is that their opponent has said categorically that everyone can stay. Perhaps May thinks that the Tory members like the idea of chucking people out of the country and being non committal will work to her advantage. But I really doubt that somehow.
So you'd grant something to EU citizens in the UK that we have no way of knowing will be granted to UK citizens in the EU?
Absolutely. If the EU wants to start cleansing itself of Brits we should not retaliate. I appreciate that many on here will then be in the position to point and laugh at those of us who have questioned the levels of immigration over the last decade. But I'd rather live with those consequences than start deporting people.
Oh yes we should retaliate. This is realpolitik, not a time for fluffy emotionalism.
I think it's only now dawning on some LEAVErs that ending free movement might have "consequences" not all of them simple or easy.
Looks like Brexit may actually push wages down in some areas. We are recruiting at the moment and have been told by agencies that we will have less competition for talent as so many companies have instituted hiring freezes since the referendum.
you just get richer by the day. Cant understand why you didnt vote leave in the first place :-)
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making the sensible point that the residence status of EU citizens will depend on the outcome of the outcome of the negotiation are saying that a Romanian who has been here four months and is now working in a hand car-wash has acquired a lifetime right to live here? And that that should remain true even if our EU friends don't extend the same courtesy to Brits living in their countries? Have I got this interpretation of 'getting control of our borders' correct?
Considering most Brits abroad are idle oldies who are tight arses, and have a range of chronic conditions- shut the gates. Give me the Romanian car washer any day, any time, any place.
Leadsom has got it right on this one.
Nabavi- as much as I don't do personal comments here, you never fail to be extremely pompous.
Proof, if indeed proof is necessary that May has got this one right
Actually I am rooting for May. She is being too clever by half on this one I'm afraid.
Considering the Tory leadership contest is about my PM (apart from Renzi- a very good chap here)- my choice would be Theresa hands down. She might lack some charisma, but I have always rated her extremely highly.
And this shows that she has a bit of backbone when it comes to negotiating.
Paris and Frankfurt will be delighted that City workers from the EU are having their status put in question by the presumptive UK PM.
54
Fifty fking four
that's the number of asylum seekers all German DAX companies have employed since the crisis
dont give me crap about the great employment opportunities in the EU they dont exist
more likely UK companies will employ more German asylum seekers by the end of the year.
Hello Alan, LOL , there are some real numpties on here , pontificating on subjects when they know square root of nothing other than what they gleaned from twitter
Open question to the floor/particularly Theresa May supporters.
What do you make of her implied threat to use EU citizens already working here as pawns in her negotiations ?
If this had come from Andrea Leadsome today would you be taking the same view ?
Or did I mishear the news today ?
I doubt it's going to be an issue in any negotations. I think it will be cleared out of the way early on as agreed points before getting onto the tricky stuff. It sounds like electioneering to me
That post-Brexit residency status is an issue up for negotiation isn't electioneering or politicking or using people as pawns/bargaining chips, it is a simple statement of fact. Unless the EU and UK agree a deal regarding status ( which I'm sure they will) then their status will change. It's a direct and foreseeable consequence of voting Leave so it is pretty galling to see Leave politicians queuing up to bash someone else for the consequences of their advocacy.
But as a starting point I cannot believe we would consider deporting several million people who have been here legally for years. It's all very well being tough in the negotiations but if it's obvious you have no intention of following through on something it won't work.
...that is a very good point. No one seriously expects people to be forced out, it would be electoral and economic suicide. Plus be a stain on the national character....god, there's a phrase I never though I would ever use.
Surely there is no hope of Leadsom getting her true believer plans through the house? I can't comment on the poll, perhaps we need to see a few more, trend is the friend etc.
How many genuine Tory europhile MPs are there? Ones that have long been on the record about their pro-euness, like Soubry or Clarke? If it's more than 30 they could cause real trouble to any brexit plans anyway (12 to knock out con majority, 7 to cover labour leavers, 8 to cover DUP).
Could depend on if the SNP abstain or not (they may do if it helps their independence cause, but I think they would probably still vote against)
If the SNP votes down the result of a Brexit referendum it sets a precedent for the UK parliament to vote down the result of any Scotland independence referendum.
Smart tactical move by Leadsom to say current EU citizens can stay in UK. Shows a human side and good judgement.
May lacks a human side as demonstatred by saying she would use existing EU citzens in UK as a bargaining chip. Lots of established Conservative members will not welcome this threat by May in my view
So we have a candidate for the leadership of the Conservative Party together with ministers refusing to rule out what would amount to forced repatriation of foreign nationals whom the UK had previous allowed to settle here. Bargaining chip or not, that is far beyond the pale and May ought to be pilloried for it. It is tempting to draw the parallel with the 1960s and 1970s except that the stance of May would go beyond even the voluntary repatriation advocated by Powell.
Open question to the floor/particularly Theresa May supporters.
What do you make of her implied threat to use EU citizens already working here as pawns in her negotiations ?
If this had come from Andrea Leadsome today would you be taking the same view ?
Or did I mishear the news today ?
I doubt it's going to be an issue in any negotations. I think it will be cleared out of the way early on as agreed points before getting onto the tricky stuff. It sounds like electioneering to me
That post-Brexit residency status is an issue up for negotiation isn't electioneering or politicking or using people as pawns/bargaining chips, it is a simple statement of fact. Unless the EU and UK agree a deal regarding status ( which I'm sure they will) then their status will change. It's a direct and foreseeable consequence of voting Leave so it is pretty galling to see Leave politicians queuing up to bash someone else for the consequences of their advocacy.
But as a starting point I cannot believe we would consider deporting several million people who have been here legally for years. It's all very well being tough in the negotiations but if it's obvious you have no intention of following through on something it won't work.
...that is a very good point. No one seriously expects people to be forced out, it would be electoral and economic suicide. Plus be a stain on the national character....god, there's a phrase I never though I would ever use.
I think it's being badly handled by May - it would acheive the same if she said "I'm sure that we will negotiate a package that includes the right of people already here to stay". That makes the point that it's part of a deal and we'd expect something reasonable in return, but also using reassuring language to make it clear that people don't need to worry themselves sick for two years.
It's pretty obvious that May will win, but she probably needs to work on talking human a bit.
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making the sensible point that the residence status of EU citizens will depend on the outcome of the outcome of the negotiation are saying that a Romanian who has been here four months and is now working in a hand car-wash has acquired a lifetime right to live here? And that that should remain true even if our EU friends don't extend the same courtesy to Brits living in their countries? Have I got this interpretation of 'getting control of our borders' correct?
Considering most Brits abroad are idle oldies who are tight arses, and have a range of chronic conditions- shut the gates. Give me the Romanian car washer any day, any time, any place.
Leadsom has got it right on this one.
Nabavi- as much as I don't do personal comments here, you never fail to be extremely pompous.
Proof, if indeed proof is necessary that May has got this one right
Actually I am rooting for May. She is being too clever by half on this one I'm afraid.
Considering the Tory leadership contest is about my PM (apart from Renzi- a very good chap here)- my choice would be Theresa hands down. She might lack some charisma, but I have always rated her extremely highly.
And this shows that she has a bit of backbone when it comes to negotiating.
Paris and Frankfurt will be delighted that City workers from the EU are having their status put in question by the presumptive UK PM.
54
Fifty fking four
that's the number of asylum seekers all German DAX companies have employed since the crisis
dont give me crap about the great employment opportunities in the EU they dont exist
more likely UK companies will employ more German asylum seekers by the end of the year.
Hello Alan, LOL , there are some real numpties on here , pontificating on subjects when they know square root of nothing other than what they gleaned from twitter
Have to admit malc even I was surprised just how few asylum seekers had got jobs with Germany's biggest companies. Having spent the second half of last year listening to some PBers saying how desperate German industry was for workers, the picture to date is anything but.
Open question to the floor/particularly Theresa May supporters.
What do you make of her implied threat to use EU citizens already working here as pawns in her negotiations ?
If this had come from Andrea Leadsome today would you be taking the same view ?
Or did I mishear the news today ?
I doubt it's going to be an issue in any negotations. I think it will be cleared out of the way early on as agreed points before getting onto the tricky stuff. It sounds like electioneering to me
That post-Brexit residency status is an issue up for negotiation isn't electioneering or politicking or using people as pawns/bargaining chips, it is a simple statement of fact. Unless the EU and UK agree a deal regarding status ( which I'm sure they will) then their status will change. It's a direct and foreseeable consequence of voting Leave so it is pretty galling to see Leave politicians queuing up to bash someone else for the consequences of their advocacy.
But as a starting point I cannot believe we would consider deporting several million people who have been here legally for years. It's all very well being tough in the negotiations but if it's obvious you have no intention of following through on something it won't work.
...that is a very good point. No one seriously expects people to be forced out, it would be electoral and economic suicide. Plus be a stain on the national character....god, there's a phrase I never though I would ever use.
I think it's being badly handled by May - it would acheive the same if she said "I'm sure that we will negotiate a package that includes the right of people already here to stay". That makes the point that it's part of a deal and we'd expect something reasonable in return, but also using reassuring language to make it clear that people don't need to worry themselves sick for two years.
It's pretty obvious that May will win, but she probably needs to work on talking human a bit.
She appears to be pushing the ruthlessly practical angle currently, she has to have on upside to being dull I suppose and that is where the socially awkward usually go in politics.
Split in leaving camp. Con home reporting that tonight leave.eu have endorsed Andrea Leadsom and vote leave Michael Gove. Has our politics ever been so crazy ?
'There are countless, countless more expat Brits, living in the black, who do not register themselves, who do not comply with local residency requirements and do not care, or try to learn the language, or want to pay the taxes and rely on their health cards to access services.
We blame immigrants for failing to play by the rules. Brits living abroad are often much worse.'
Really ? The figures give a completely different story.
NHS 'Scandal' As UK Pays Millions To EU - Sky News news.sky.com/story/1652305/nhs-scandal-as-uk-pays-millions-to-eu
2 Mar 2016 - New figures show the NHS is paying out millions more for EU ... paying four times more to Poland for health care recharges, than they pay to us.
Could May 'lend' some of her MP supporters to one of the other candidates so Leadsom doesn't make the final two?
That would make the whole thing very messy...if the Conservative party votes in Leadsom it deserves to eat itself alive.
OK- fine HaroldO politically,- but unlike a Brexiter or three quid Tory, I am not a nihilist. I want May because at this time we need the most competent person being PM. I wish the Tories had opened up an accessible system to pay for it- I would have joined, and influenced everyone I know to go for May.
Could May 'lend' some of her MP supporters to one of the other candidates so Leadsom doesn't make the final two?
That would make the whole thing very messy...if the Conservative party votes in Leadsom it deserves to eat itself alive.
OK- fine HaroldO politically,- but unlike a Brexiter or three quid Tory, I am not a nihilist. I want May because at this time we need the most competent person being PM. I wish the Tories had opened up an accessible system to pay for it- I would have joined, and influenced everyone I know to go for May.
I actually was considering doing the same in a few years to get her in for 2019 if the field had stayed as it was, and I have no interest in joining a political party at all. But the idea of Osborne or Johnson (after turning on Cameron) getting in appalled me, and with the field on the opposite side being Corbyn than I thought they were nailed on.
I think May is the least worst option, I won't be putting bunting out for her or anything like that.
PLP are meeting. Sounds like Kinnock has moved MPs to tears.
Has he told them he knows how to win an election
In fairness I am in tears of laughter at the thought Kinnock thinks he knows how not to have Tories in power for 18 years
If Corbynistas are only going to listen to election winning leaders, then there's a chap with three election victories with a stonking average of nearly 130 seat majority worth listening to.
PLP are meeting. Sounds like Kinnock has moved MPs to tears.
Has he told them he knows how to win an election
In fairness I am in tears of laughter at the thought Kinnock thinks he knows how not to have Tories in power for 18 years
If Corbynistas are only going to listen to election winning leaders, then there's a chap with three election victories with a stonking average of nearly 130 seat majority worth listening to.
Unimpressed by Andrea's launch speech which despite being very short, she evidently had to read. She clearly doesn't possess Dave's talent for committing speeches, even very long ones, to memory. Consequently she didn't come across very well by comparison.
***Thinks*** We'll only miss him when he's gone ...... too true .
I'm baffled that you would give a fig about such trivia.
Presentational skills are important, very important. If you don't understand that, you don't know much about politics.
Surely there is no hope of Leadsom getting her true believer plans through the house? I can't comment on the poll, perhaps we need to see a few more, trend is the friend etc.
How many genuine Tory europhile MPs are there? Ones that have long been on the record about their pro-euness, like Soubry or Clarke? If it's more than 30 they could cause real trouble to any brexit plans anyway (12 to knock out con majority, 7 to cover labour leavers, 8 to cover DUP).
Could depend on if the SNP abstain or not (they may do if it helps their independence cause, but I think they would probably still vote against)
SNP would vote against as Sturgeon won't want to lose credibility. There are probably 30+ Europhile Tories, Damian Green, Geo Osborne (!), David Cameron (!), Clare Perry etc etc
I expect that Conservatives who voted against Brexit now would lose the Whip.
If it was an EEA type solution from May I can imagine the threat of losing the whip being enough to keep them in line. But if it's a completely out option, with a leader preferred amongst members not MPs, would the europhile's still vote it through? Labour MPs may be useless at rebellions but the Tories generally have a better knack for it!
It's not in the gift of the House of Commons.
The outcome is the result of negotiation with the EU. Given the end of free movement, if the EU says no deal other than World Trade tariffs then the HoC can not vote for EFTA.
It is not up to the EU whether we join EFTA. It is up to the EFTA members. Since you are referring specifically to EFTA then bear in mind the EU has absolutely no say whatsoever over the makeup of EFTA.
But EFTA members (other than Lichtenstein) have to agree free movement.
EFTA is an association of oddball countries in western Europe that aren't members of the EU. The European Economic Area (EEA) is a single market and social area setup between EFTA and the EU. To be part of the EEA a Brexited UK would have to join EFTA and, in practice, get the agreement of the EU
Can Norwegian citizens who have lived in Britain on and off for 25 years but who haven't ever applied for British citizenship, even when married to British citizens who eventually divorced them, because it might upset their Norwegian families if they settled here, and because their hearts have always been in the fjords and they always piss themselves pining every 17th May, all be deported as soon as possible please. Send immigration officials round to visit them and ask them how come they haven't applied for citizenship if they claim to be "settled" here, and then frogmarch them to the airport and send them the bill. Just saying.
You only need 35% support from MPs to get into the membership ballot. It doesn't matter if the other 65% despise Leadsom.
I highly doubt she has that. There were only 138 Leavers and a number of those are already on May's side. Plus some will think she just isn't up to it.
PLP are meeting. Sounds like Kinnock has moved MPs to tears.
Has he told them he knows how to win an election
In fairness I am in tears of laughter at the thought Kinnock thinks he knows how not to have Tories in power for 18 years
If Corbynistas are only going to listen to election winning leaders, then there's a chap with three election victories with a stonking average of nearly 130 seat majority worth listening to.
Wednesday is nearly here.
A minor mistake by ACL Blair, stop focussing on the negatives and focus on the positives.
'There are countless, countless more expat Brits, living in the black, who do not register themselves, who do not comply with local residency requirements and do not care, or try to learn the language, or want to pay the taxes and rely on their health cards to access services.
We blame immigrants for failing to play by the rules. Brits living abroad are often much worse.'
Really ? The figures give a completely different story.
NHS 'Scandal' As UK Pays Millions To EU - Sky News news.sky.com/story/1652305/nhs-scandal-as-uk-pays-millions-to-eu
2 Mar 2016 - New figures show the NHS is paying out millions more for EU ... paying four times more to Poland for health care recharges, than they pay to us.
I think you just made my point for me.
I have come across expats who play fast and loose with local rules, mainly to avoid paying taxes. My friend who lives in Spain tells me the same...his lawyer has told him it is common for Brits to pay cash for properties with suitcases filled with Euros. They do not register themselves locally, and use holiday insurance or their EU health cards to access local health services.
But there are many more who rent, and equally do not register themselves. They often do not know how, and have such limited local language, that they are incapable anyway. So, they live under the wire.
It is little surprise that 80% of the registered expats are in work...they have to be registered by their employer....but there are many, many thousands of others who are not registered.
Looks like Brexit may actually push wages down in some areas. We are recruiting at the moment and have been told by agencies that we will have less competition for talent as so many companies have instituted hiring freezes since the referendum.
you just get richer by the day. Cant understand why you didnt vote leave in the first place :-)
I am a mere minority shareholder these days, but it's fair to say Brexit hasn't worked out too badly so far :-)
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making the sensible point that the residence status of EU citizens will depend on the outcome of the outcome of the negotiation are saying that a Romanian who has been here four months and is now working in a hand car-wash has acquired a lifetime right to live here? And that that should remain true even if our EU friends don't extend the same courtesy to Brits living in their countries? Have I got this interpretation of 'getting control of our borders' correct?
Considering most Brits abroad are idle oldies who are tight arses, and have a range of chronic conditions- shut the gates. Give me the Romanian car washer any day, any time, any place.
Leadsom has got it right on this one.
Nabavi- as much as I don't do personal comments here, you never fail to be extremely pompous.
Proof, if indeed proof is necessary that May has got this one right
Actually I am rooting for May. She is being too clever by half on this one I'm afraid.
Considering the Tory leadership contest is about my PM (apart from Renzi- a very good chap here)- my choice would be Theresa hands down. She might lack some charisma, but I have always rated her extremely highly.
And this shows that she has a bit of backbone when it comes to negotiating.
Paris and Frankfurt will be delighted that City workers from the EU are having their status put in question by the presumptive UK PM.
54
Fifty fking four
that's the number of asylum seekers all German DAX companies have employed since the crisis
dont give me crap about the great employment opportunities in the EU they dont exist
more likely UK companies will employ more German asylum seekers by the end of the year.
I understood that asylum seekers in Germany are not allowed to seek employment until their application has been accepted, which takes on average a year.
How the stats work out in the end is a bit early to say.
Could May 'lend' some of her MP supporters to one of the other candidates so Leadsom doesn't make the final two?
That would make the whole thing very messy...if the Conservative party votes in Leadsom it deserves to eat itself alive.
OK- fine HaroldO politically,- but unlike a Brexiter or three quid Tory, I am not a nihilist. I want May because at this time we need the most competent person being PM. I wish the Tories had opened up an accessible system to pay for it- I would have joined, and influenced everyone I know to go for May.
I actually was considering doing the same in a few years to get her in for 2019 if the field had stayed as it was, and I have no interest in joining a political party at all. But the idea of Osborne or Johnson (after turning on Cameron) getting in appalled me, and with the field on the opposite side being Corbyn than I thought they were nailed on.
I think May is the least worst option, I won't be putting bunting out for her or anything like that.
LOL- I've got my Theresa May kitten coloured bunting at the ready, and a bottle of lemonade (sparkling but non alcoholic to fit our tea totler PM)
If Leadsom wins and Corbyn is re-elected by the membership, you'd have a situation where most of the MPs from both main parties have a leader they didn't vote for.
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making the sensible point that the residence status of EU citizens will depend on the outcome of the outcome of the negotiation are saying that a Romanian who has been here four months and is now working in a hand car-wash has acquired a lifetime right to live here? And that that should remain true even if our EU friends don't extend the same courtesy to Brits living in their countries? Have I got this interpretation of 'getting control of our borders' correct?
Considering most Brits abroad are idle oldies who are tight arses, and have a range of chronic conditions- shut the gates. Give me the Romanian car washer any day, any time, any place.
Leadsom has got it right on this one.
Nabavi- as much as I don't do personal comments here, you never fail to be extremely pompous.
Proof, if indeed proof is necessary that May has got this one right
Actually I am rooting for May. She is being too clever by half on this one I'm afraid.
Considering the Tory leadership contest is about my PM (apart from Renzi- a very good chap here)- my choice would be Theresa hands down. She might lack some charisma, but I have always rated her extremely highly.
And this shows that she has a bit of backbone when it comes to negotiating.
Paris and Frankfurt will be delighted that City workers from the EU are having their status put in question by the presumptive UK PM.
54
Fifty fking four
that's the number of asylum seekers all German DAX companies have employed since the crisis
dont give me crap about the great employment opportunities in the EU they dont exist
more likely UK companies will employ more German asylum seekers by the end of the year.
I understood that asylum seekers in Germany are not allowed to seek employment until their application has been accepted, which takes on average a year.
How the stats work out in the end is a bit early to say.
The Franfurter Allgemeine is saying DAX companies have little interest in employing asylum seekers. Of the 54 employed 50 got jobs with Deutsche Post. The German Labour Ministry is reporting 300k asylum seekers are looking for jobs.
How thick is Andrea Leadsom? She couldn't get into Oxford and they let in David Miliband with 3Bs and a D.
Time to break the Oxbridge cartel.
I think Gordon was not Oxbridge. Worked out fine as I recall...
Churchill was not Oxbridge, Eden was Oxbridge. Oxbridge are the best 2 universities in the country so they are bound to produce more than their fair share of PMs but just because you went to Oxbridge, or more particularly Oxford (the last Cambridge educated PM was Baldwin), does not mean you are automatically going to be a great PM, nor does the fact you did not go mean you will be a bad one
Going to a major public school though probably helps if you did not go to Oxbridge, Churchill went to Harrow (as Baldwin had a decade before) and he was followed by 3 Etonian PMs
@faisalislam: fave bit of post '22 briefing: MP 1 "will be no tactical voting - this is much too serious" MP 2 "we're all working out our tactical votes"
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making the sensible point that the residence status of EU citizens will depend on the outcome of the outcome of the negotiation are saying that a Romanian who has been here four months and is now working in a hand car-wash has acquired a lifetime right to live here? And that that should remain true even if our EU friends don't extend the same courtesy to Brits living in their countries? Have I got this interpretation of 'getting control of our borders' correct?
Wow, making up an edge case to prove a point? That's almost completely unknown. I'm so surprised to see it happening on PB.
It's not an edge case. Or at least, the Leavers told us the country was being overrun with low-skill EU immigrants forcing down wages. Are you suggesting they were talking absolute bollocks?
Richard - the referendum is over. I didn't vote to leave, you didn't vote to leave. But we are where we are.
Again - do you think it acceptable for current EU migrants working and living here to be used as political pawns in May's game ? I certainly haven't heard the Spanish come out with anything like this - bringing it up now is both inhumane and poor tactically. Do you not think we need just a dash of goodwill when we're negotiating with other EU countries ?
While in all likelihood this will be sorted sharpish, as has been mentioned, the issue could also be the first taste of "real life" that a post-EU UK will face. Of course we all assume that everyone will be all touchy feely about our departure and that we can have more or less the same deal we had but with fewer foreigners.
But this is real politik and geopolitical reality. Nations negotiate to gain advantage. Although we might all want a group hug, what guarantee is there that France or Spain will agree to the existing circumstances? Because we hope or want them to? Much will be gained by hard-nosed negotiation and if I was a Brit living abroad in the EU I would be spitting feathers at being told that the UK had gone solo on allowing EU citizens to stay in the UK with absolutely zip in return.
An indication of how much growing up Brexiteers have to do is that on DP today, the Moggster said that as from June 23rd, ie two weeks ago, or very soon if not then, no EU citizen should have the right to remain in the UK. What do you suppose the leaders of EU27 would do or think or implement if Moggster's man, or Leadsom if she thinks the same, became PM in a matter of weeks?
You only need 35% support from MPs to get into the membership ballot. It doesn't matter if the other 65% despise Leadsom.
May could lend some of her MPs to Crabb and Gove if she has a big enough lead in round 1 to ensure Leadsom does not make the leadership ballot
I flagged up that possibility a few days ago.
It is very possible, if I were May I would do it, IDS used such tactics to knock-out Portillo though he almost knocked out himself. Cameron also used them to knock-out Fox
If Leadsom picks up all of Fox's support and 75% of Gove's she'd be on about a third of Tory MPs, using Guido's list. That only includes MPs who've declared so far.
May seems to be setting out a negotiating stance with EU - perhaps unavoidable as front runner whereas Leadsom is staking out a vision. I know which I find more appealing.
A further concern - does May actually have a vision of where she would like to take the UK? She seems to be someone who wants power "to be" rather than "to do".
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making the sensible point that the residence status of EU citizens will depend on the outcome of the outcome of the negotiation are saying that a Romanian who has been here four months and is now working in a hand car-wash has acquired a lifetime right to live here? And that that should remain true even if our EU friends don't extend the same courtesy to Brits living in their countries? Have I got this interpretation of 'getting control of our borders' correct?
Considering most Brits abroad are idle oldies who are tight arses, and have a range of chronic conditions- shut the gates. Give me the Romanian car washer any day, any time, any place.
Leadsom has got it right on this one.
Nabavi- as much as I don't do personal comments here, you never fail to be extremely pompous.
Good grief.... Don't do "personal comments on here" seriously?
You have been calling a number of people on here xenophobic racists for months now and even apologists for racism. One poster even threatened you with lawyers of you attempted it again.
You are certainly a leading candidate for the " total lack of self awareness" award that's for sure.
You only need 35% support from MPs to get into the membership ballot. It doesn't matter if the other 65% despise Leadsom.
One cabinet minister said: “only four out of the five contributions we heard tonight were sane.”
That they are briefing against Leadsom makes me think they are worried about her. They need to be careful not to make it too obvious if they do decide to stitch her up.
How thick is Andrea Leadsom? She couldn't get into Oxford and they let in David Miliband with 3Bs and a D.
That was the special entrance requirement for sons of Marxist academics living in Notting Hill
She's of the age when the oxbridge entrance exams still existed. Past that and you could take upper 6 off as all you needed was your 2 E's for a grant...
So, to be clear, those people (mainly hard-core Leavers) criticising Theresa May and Philip Hammond for making t?
Considering most Brits abroad are idle oldies who are tight arses, and have a range of chronic conditions- shut the gates. Give me the Romanian car washer any day, any time, any place.
Leadsom has got it right on this one.
Nabavi- as much as I don't do personal comments here, you never fail to be extremely pompous.
Proof, if indeed proof is necessary that May has got this one right
Actually I am rooting for May. She is being too clever by half on this one I'm afraid.
Considering the Tory leadership contest is about my PM (apart from Renzi- a very good chap here)- my choice would be Theresa hands down. She might lack some charisma, but I have always rated her extremely highly.
And this shows that she has a bit of backbone when it comes to negotiating.
Paris and Frankfurt will be delighted that City workers from the EU are having their status put in question by the presumptive UK PM.
54
Fifty fking four
that's the number of asylum seekers all German DAX companies have employed since the crisis
dont give me crap about the great employment opportunities in the EU they dont exist
more likely UK companies will employ more German asylum seekers by the end of the year.
I understood that asylum seekers in Germany are not allowed to seek employment until their application has been accepted, which takes on average a year.
How the stats work out in the end is a bit early to say.
The Franfurter Allgemeine is saying DAX companies have little interest in employing asylum seekers. Of the 54 employed 50 got jobs with Deutsche Post. The German Labour Ministry is reporting 300k asylum seekers are looking for jobs.
I am not disputing the figures, but there are plenty of barriers to employment for asylum seekers, including dispersal and legal bars to employment before their status is settled.
Afriend of mine (Iraqi) has a brother in Germany who has been there eight years as an asylum seeker, but not yet permitted to work.
You only need 35% support from MPs to get into the membership ballot. It doesn't matter if the other 65% despise Leadsom.
One cabinet minister said: “only four out of the five contributions we heard tonight were sane.”
That they are briefing against Leadsom makes me think they are worried about her. They need to be careful not to make it too obvious if they do decide to stitch her up.
And briefing that she gave a poor hustings is all grist to that particular mill.
Comments
However, it's all a minor storm in a teacup. We've got the first round to look forward to tomorrow and Chilcott on Wednesday. I thought I'd be off PB on the 24th June, but the hits just keep on coming
We blame immigrants for failing to play by the rules. Brits living abroad are often much worse.
Leadsom wants to commit to a position on one of the biggest aspects of the referendum, before anyone has even started negotiating!
I cannot see anyone seriously trying to get anyone to leave, that is not on the table...but currently we have no table.
'Open question to the floor/particularly Theresa May supporters.
What do you make of her implied threat to use EU citizens already working here as pawns in her negotiations ?
If this had come from Andrea Leadsome today would you be taking the same view ?
Or did I mishear the news today ?'
Twitter followers & May supporters .
http://www.thelocal.es/20160602/brits-could-lose-right-to-live-in-spain-warns-rajoy-brexit
The resignation and the accusation may or may not be linked.
Plus be a stain on the national character....god, there's a phrase I never though I would ever use.
It's pretty obvious that May will win, but she probably needs to work on talking human a bit.
https://twitter.com/elashton/status/750033002617602048
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/750036271691603969
'There are countless, countless more expat Brits, living in the black, who do not register themselves, who do not comply with local residency requirements and do not care, or try to learn the language, or want to pay the taxes and rely on their health cards to access services.
We blame immigrants for failing to play by the rules. Brits living abroad are often much worse.'
Really ? The figures give a completely different story.
NHS 'Scandal' As UK Pays Millions To EU - Sky News
news.sky.com/story/1652305/nhs-scandal-as-uk-pays-millions-to-eu
2 Mar 2016 - New figures show the NHS is paying out millions more for EU ... paying four times more to Poland for health care recharges, than they pay to us.
I want May because at this time we need the most competent person being PM. I wish the Tories had opened up an accessible system to pay for it- I would have joined, and influenced everyone I know to go for May.
In fairness I am in tears of laughter at the thought Kinnock thinks he knows how not to have Tories in power for 18 years
The present anger mostly seems to come from people who see EU immigrants - very often their colleagues, of course - as superior to British ex-pats.
But the idea of Osborne or Johnson (after turning on Cameron) getting in appalled me, and with the field on the opposite side being Corbyn than I thought they were nailed on.
I think May is the least worst option, I won't be putting bunting out for her or anything like that.
The abomination that is the Garden Bridge in London has cost £37.7 million already before any construction has started.
To put that into context, the Millennium Bridge cost £18.2 million in total, although that was sixteen years ago.
Those involved, from Joanna Lumley down, should be ashamed of themselves.
I'm looking long term
OK!
HAPPY NOW?
He still won a 66 seat majority after Iraq
I have come across expats who play fast and loose with local rules, mainly to avoid paying taxes. My friend who lives in Spain tells me the same...his lawyer has told him it is common for Brits to pay cash for properties with suitcases filled with Euros. They do not register themselves locally, and use holiday insurance or their EU health cards to access local health services.
But there are many more who rent, and equally do not register themselves. They often do not know how, and have such limited local language, that they are incapable anyway. So, they live under the wire.
It is little surprise that 80% of the registered expats are in work...they have to be registered by their employer....but there are many, many thousands of others who are not registered.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/
Meanwhile Shorten has said Turnbull is the southern hemisphere's David Cameron
At 1922, Theresa May got most vocal backing, as you'd expect. Leadsom won fans, but May's backers seized on A50 timing change...
Not sure we're a typical UK company though.
How the stats work out in the end is a bit early to say.
http://www.suffolk.edu/academics/1094.php
http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/mittelstand-als-hoffnungstraeger-fuer-fluechtlinge-14323607.html
Going to a major public school though probably helps if you did not go to Oxbridge, Churchill went to Harrow (as Baldwin had a decade before) and he was followed by 3 Etonian PMs
@faisalislam: fave bit of post '22 briefing: MP 1 "will be no tactical voting - this is much too serious" MP 2 "we're all working out our tactical votes"
A further concern - does May actually have a vision of where she would like to take the UK? She seems to be someone who wants power "to be" rather than "to do".
You have been calling a number of people on here xenophobic racists for months now and even apologists for racism. One poster even threatened you with lawyers of you attempted it again.
You are certainly a leading candidate for the " total lack of self awareness" award that's for sure.
Afriend of mine (Iraqi) has a brother in Germany who has been there eight years as an asylum seeker, but not yet permitted to work.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/04/we-conservatives-are-all-leavers-now-we-must-unite-to-build-a-ne/